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BYU AD Tom Holmoe says Cougars should hear back from NCAA soon on improper benefits case

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  • RepresentBlue West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 4:02 p.m.

    A lot of members of the local media are going to have egg on their faces when this ends up being a minor offense at worst.

  • BYUalum South Jordan, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 4:17 p.m.

    I had never heard Duane Bussy's name before this came out. From all the coaches and players who were associated with him, he seems to be a man with a big heart and a sterling character. Unfortunate it is that this surfaced as he left the "Y". This whole thing may or may not have anything to do with him. Nevertheless, I know that BYU did all that they were asked. Whatever it was, I personally think it was minor.

    The whole school, professors, coaches, etc., live by the Honor Code, not just the athletes and students. I am proud to be an alumni of this great school. In all these years, they still hold themselves to higher standards than most universities.

    Go Cougars!

  • PAC man Anaheim, CA
    Aug. 20, 2014 4:27 p.m.

    As expected, there were no "major violations", as some on the hill were so desperately hoping.

    After all of the media frenzy, this will turn out to be nothing more than some minor violations penalized by a slap on the wrist or some very minor penalties.

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Aug. 20, 2014 4:28 p.m.

    Good news for BYU; devastating news for the BYU haters.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 5:34 p.m.

    It'll be interesting to see what happens. I don't think BYU will get the death penalty or anything, but I think it's clear that this is about more than just socks.

  • Hey Baby Franklin, IN
    Aug. 20, 2014 5:50 p.m.

    Too many cougar fans on the editorial board tonight...

    Good night...

    Enjoy posting all the sugar coated news

  • taylormade1 Springville, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 8:41 p.m.

    Two for flinching,
    You are absolutely hilarious even bringing up the "death penalty"!have you even been following this story from the start ? A slap on the hands at the very most which is exactly what you are going to see is not even in the same time zone as what you are referring to.anyways here's some better news to help make your day. Heard a media member interviewed back east today that stated that he is more than certain that the Y will in some way be included in the new major college football landscape within 4 years . Now that's something to talk about !

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 8:59 p.m.

    @ taylormade1

    I said "I don't think BYU will get the death penalty or anything", which means that I do not think it'll be serious. However I would not be surprised if it turns out to be a little more serious than BYU fans are hoping it will be.

    As for BYU being included, we'll see. Nobody knows what's going to happen, but their time is running out.

  • Gandalph Sandy, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 9:49 p.m.

    2fer

    "I don't think BYU will get the death penalty..."

    Trust a Utah fan to blow this completely out of proportion - expecting the death penalty for jay walking - sheesh!

    What next, life in prison, for a parking ticket?

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 10:47 p.m.

    taylormade1
    Springville, UT

    "Heard a media member interviewed back east today that stated that he is more than certain that the Y will in some way be included in the new major college football landscape within 4 years. Now that's something to talk about !"

    Well, let's see, taylormade1...it won't be the Pac-12, the ACC, or the SEC. That leaves the Big-10 and the Big-12. The Big-12 directly addressed the byu question and I'm not sure that the Big10 has any interest whatsoever. Any media member can say anything. So, taylormade1, where is the invitation for byu to be "included in the new major college football landscape," going to come from?

    Given the current conversation, it would be prudent to question the credibility of the source before you engage in too much talk.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 21, 2014 7:48 a.m.

    As much as I can't stand many of the Utah haters on these threads, I really hope BYU get's though this unscathed. I will be suprised if it's nothing more than very minor penalties; and I hope that's the case. Sometimes I think someone should investigate the NCAA.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 8:47 a.m.

    taylormade,

    "Heard a media member interviewed back east today that stated that he is more than certain that the Y will in some way be included in the new major college football landscape within 4 years "

    Interesting - care to share their name? Its so very telling you didn't! Why don't you share your source and we can evaluate their credibility.

    Here is yet ANOTHER person stating byu is in trouble. From KSL "BYU football could be in long term trouble" And within that article here is this gem:

    “I could be wrong about BYU. I don’t know yet where they fit into the new scheme,” said Chris Dufresne of the Los Angeles Times.

    “There seems to be a clear divide between the Power 5 and the (other) group of five, and BYU is sort of straddling in the middle. Notre Dame is always going to be OK.”

    Ouch! Bad time to be a mid major like byu and Wyoming!

  • idablu Idaho Falls, ID
    Aug. 21, 2014 9:22 a.m.

    After the NCAA pretty much gave the P5 carte blanche authority it would be really hypocritical if they came down hard on BYU for relatively minor infractions.

  • TrueBlue Orem, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 9:38 a.m.

    CB

    "I could be wrong about BYU. I don’t know yet where they fit into the new scheme," said Chris Dufresne of the Los Angeles Times.

    "There seems to be a clear divide between the Power 5 and the (other) group of five, and BYU is sort of straddling in the middle. Notre Dame is always going to be OK."

    I know that you're desperately hoping for the demise of BYU sports, but the truth is, nobody knows exactly how this is going to play out.

    btw, since the "majors" have become "P5s", by default, "mid-majors" have become "non-P5s".

    Try to keep up.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 10:15 a.m.

    TrueBlue,

    Right, we don't know how byU will fit into the future of college football. But we do know that Utah is in a very very good position and byU is in a very very bad position.

    LOL

    There isn't a single mid major that wouldn't trade positions with any big boy team right now!

    That says all we need to know.

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    Aug. 21, 2014 10:29 a.m.

    @RepresentBlue

    "A lot of members of the local media are going to have egg on their faces when this ends up being a minor offense at worst."

    What makes you think this is the case? Despite what the BYU lapdog media is telling you, there is more to this than free socks. Players had their rent paid by the program itself (not just boosters). So no longer is it a "lack of institutional control"....now we are in the realm of the program itself providing impermissible benefits. That right there is enough to get a non-P5 school on postseason probation and scholarships withheld.

    And if this was such a minor deal, BYU wouldn't have forced Busby out, and he wouldn't be hiding from the media.

  • TrueBlue Orem, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 10:52 a.m.

    Chris B

    "Right, we don't know how BYU will fit into the future of college football. But we do know that Utah is in a very very good position and BYU is in a very very bad position."

    Correction:

    - Utah appears to currently be in a very good position as far as access to the playoffs; that doesn't mean Utah is in a better position to actually be invited to the playoffs.

    - BYU appears to be a very bad position as far as access to the playoffs; that doesn't mean BYU isn't in a better position to actually be invited to the playoffs.

    In both cases, it comes down to winning games and impressing the selection committee.

  • TrueBlue Orem, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 10:55 a.m.

    Utah appears to be in over their heads as far as winning.

    BYU appears to have a tougher task at impressing the committee while they're winning.

    As far as long-term stability in college football, forget it.

    Whose to say that when the current television contracts expire, USC, UCLA, Stanford, California, Washington, Oregon, Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma State won't decide to split from the pack and form their own power conference leaving Utah and the other PAC 12 bottom dwellers to fend for themselves.

    btw, why do childishly change the capitalization of "BYU"? That's so second grade.

  • CordonBleu Park City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 11:01 a.m.

    timid sparrow

    "Despite what the BYU lapdog media is telling you, there is more to this than free socks."

    And you know this how?

    Are you privy to the confidential communications between BYU and the NCAA?

    It is minor and BYU didn't force Busby out.

    Just because you're desperately hoping it will turn out to be something "serious", doesn't make your BYU hating fantasies, reality.

  • WA_Alum&Dad Marysville, WA
    Aug. 21, 2014 11:07 a.m.

    I also think that the coming years are going to bring big changes in the college sports landscape. If the US Congress could shake things up they way they did years ago with Title IX, what makes you think they can't and won't enact law to try to impose equality again?

    Those that say that the P5 conferences as presently constituted are in the driver's seat will likely be the most surprised when the earthquake happens. I personally expect that five years from now conference alignments and structures won't look anything like they do today. And if that's true, BYU is in a pretty good place being independent until that happens, assuming they keep winning.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 11:09 a.m.

    @ Gandalph

    Talk about blowing this out of proportion. My opening statement was me saying that the NCAA ruling will not be very severe. "I don't think BYU will get the death penalty or anything". I don't know if it's a reading comprehension problem or what, but the hyperbole is ridiculous.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 11:31 a.m.

    trueblue,

    If you're capable of an honest response, please tell me the name of one mid major who would rather be a mid major rather than be invited to a big boy conference.

    Can you tell me even one mid major who would tell a big boy conference "no thanks" if they were invited?

    Nope! At least not if you're honest.

    And that tells us about how byU and Utah should feel about the future of their programs!

  • Sports Are Great Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 11:50 a.m.

    Flinchy,

    I think your wording just over dramatized it. Imagine if a BYU fan had written "I don't think Utah will get the death penalty" in response to another article here in the Deseret News that mentions Utah broke some rules including placing Pac 12 stickers on letters when they shouldn't have.

    For all the talk from Utah "fans" about how certain they were there was major and widespread corruption, it sure seems to be trending the exact opposite way in terms of how serious these violations were. It will probably be a lot closer to improper sticker placement than what some "fans" were claiming 2 months ago.

    So ya, I don't think BYU will get the death penalty. Just like I don't think u of u will for being a little too sticker happy.

  • Christine B. Hedgefog Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 12:14 p.m.

    2Fer - Ya, I agree with you about the death penalty. I also don't think Travis Wilson will get the death penalty in his underage drinking citation.

    I know, silly of either of us to even mention death penalty in this conversation.

    Chris B. says Interesting - care to share their name? Its so very telling you didn't! Why don't you share your source and we can evaluate their credibility.

    Also interesting coming from you since you've been spilling that "sources" have been telling you who the starter would be at QB, etc. Funny thing, you didn't mention any names behind your rumors either.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 21, 2014 12:16 p.m.

    christy

    It's laughable that your laughing about potential rather than results.

    You're assuming that Utah, by having better access to the playoffs, will actually be invited to the playoffs.

    You're also assuming that BYU, by having more restrictive access to the playoffs, will never be invited to the playoffs.

    Neither scenario may be accurate.

    Sports history is literally filled with examples of teams and individuals with great potential that failed to take advantage of that potential.

    Sports history is also filled with underdogs with much less perceived potential succeeding far beyond what most fans thought was possible.

    Utah, so far, has been on the first track - nothing to brag (or LOL) about.

    BYU has already been on the second track once, and there's no reason to believe that they couldn't repeat that success under a new format - nothing to brag about, yet.

    Utah is currently in a better position than BYU, but that doesn't guarantee that Utah will be more successful.

  • MacNasty Rexburg, ID
    Aug. 21, 2014 12:17 p.m.

    Hey Chris B.

    You left out the part Chris Dufresne said about Utah in the same article you referenced. Ant I quote:

    “Utah just totally lucked out in getting in the Pac-12. You talk about hitting the lottery,” Dufrense said. “Utah for no other reason than it was standing there walks into this sweet (deal). It’s almost like Ringo joining the Beatles.”

    He recognizes that Utah did not deserve a spot in the PAC and was picked merely as a place holder. "Lucked out" is an understatement at best.

    Bottom line is Chris that Utah has had only two good seasons in what, the last 40 years, has been in the final rankings like what, 5 times ever, and in the 38 years of being in the WAC only won the championship twice! Utah did hardly anything when it had a "WAC" schedule and it sure is not doing anything now.

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    Aug. 21, 2014 12:55 p.m.

    @CordonBleu

    "And you know this how?

    Are you privy to the confidential communications between BYU and the NCAA?"

    Um, it was reported in the Deseret News back when the story surfaced. Sorry to break it to you, but it goes much deeper than socks....and BYU's own newspaper reported it.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 2:09 p.m.

    “Utah just totally lucked out in getting in the Pac-12 . . . It’s almost like Ringo joining the Beatles.”

    MacNasty:

    Yep, you make your own luck. So as a Ute fan I'll take the comparison to Ringo every time! After all, in the wake of the Beatles break-up he was the first of the 4 to record a solo No. 1 hit.

  • TheGreatPAC12 Salt Lake City, 00
    Aug. 21, 2014 2:40 p.m.

    This kind of behavior would never happen in the PAC12.

  • Gandalph Sandy, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 4:03 p.m.

    twofer

    You're not fooling anybody.

    Even hinting that the death penalty was in play, a sanction so crippling that the NCAA has only used it once, was ludicrous, especially for a few minor violations that warrant nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

  • Gandalph Sandy, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 4:12 p.m.

    timid sparrow

    "Um, it was reported in the Deseret News back when the story surfaced."

    You mean the same Deseret News that you labeled the "BYU lapdog media".

    Come on sparrow; at least try to be consistent with your labels.

    How you ever known the media to be wrong about the "facts" of a story?

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 5:02 p.m.

    @ Gandalph

    I think there is zero percent chance BYU gets the death penalty. Zero. I never once suggested that it was a possibility. But BYU fans seem desperate to be the victim, so if that's how you want to take it then so be it.

    Nobody knows what the penalty will be, but I would not be shocked if it was more than a slap on the wrist. That being said, I wouldn't be shocked if it did to turn out to just be a slap on the wrist. We'll all just have to wait and see.

  • Mesa Coug Phoenix, AZ
    Aug. 21, 2014 5:14 p.m.

    Who uses the term "big boy", especially to decribe themselves. Sounds like someone just graduated to the sippy cup.

    A couple of points. First, once the P5 seperate themselve from the rest. What is to stop them from starting to weed out the week, unprofitable teams in the P5? I couls see the current 65 teams quickly becoming half that size.

    Second, in Arizona any group getting enough signatures can put an inititive on the ballot. If ASU and U of A sports are requiring more and more tax payer money to support college athletes in the new model. I can see the voters passing a law requiring state sponsored college sports to be self sufficient. These initiative cannot be over turned by the state legislature either. This then could require schools not compete in an arms race relying on taxpayers to foot the bill. I wouldn't be suprised if other states have similar voter processes in place.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 5:37 p.m.

    @ Mesa Coug

    The PAC-12 gets the revenue and recognition they do because of all 12 schools. USC, Oregon, and UCLA are the big names right now, but collectively the other nine teams have more fans and, more importantly, more voting power. The collective whole is what makes it work. Nobody is going to watch, or care, if there are only 10-15 P5 teams. I have faith that Larry Scott and the Ads understand that.

    Also, trying to prevent tax payer dollars from going to university athletics is short sighted and (in the case of BYU fans) petty. I can't speak for Arizona, but the State of Utah makes money due to the tourism boost from visiting football fans. It would be foolish to cut off that revenue stream.

  • Down under Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 6:01 p.m.

    BYU will be just fine with the NCAA. They have greatrespect as being a clean institution.
    Sorry to burst your bubble chrissy.

  • Mesa Coug Phoenix, AZ
    Aug. 21, 2014 6:02 p.m.

    @Two

    Did I ever say there would only be 10-15 teams? No! 32 teams however is very plausible. It would get rid of the dead weight and the teams in the lower half would become self-sufficient because the slices of the pie would get bigger for the remaining teams.

    And I am not suggesting that AZ voters pass an initiative but I could see one easily passing. Arizonans do not like their taxes raised. We fight it at every turn. If it came to raising taxes to support a semi-pro sports at the colleges, I could definitely see a measure on the ballot. Just stating facts.

  • taylormade1 Springville, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 6:03 p.m.

    Brave sir,
    Please tell all of us how you are privy to this "inside information" regarding this matter that the Y or the NCAA have not detailed yet.

  • Mesa Coug Phoenix, AZ
    Aug. 21, 2014 6:11 p.m.

    How is someone in Panguitch that is going to be paying higher taxes benefit from tourism in SLC due to college football? Raise the price of the tickets or increase the taxes in SLC on hotel rooms, rental cars, etc. Make those that benefit pay the cost. The whole business of shifting costs to those who do not have a choice is immoral.

  • Whatsnu Sandy, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 6:19 p.m.

    Gotta luv these BYU haters who claim to know more about the facts related to the NCAA's investigation of BYU than Tom Holmoe.

    Guaranteed if these kids were actually forced to give details of who, what, when and where, they wouldn't have a clue.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 6:46 p.m.

    @ Mesa Coug

    I disagree about 32 teams being plausible. A league like that simply wouldn't be able to compete with the NFL, since all of the good players would simply opt to leave early and take the bigger money. Not only that, but most football fans cheer for an NFL team, even if there isn't one in their own city. Even if they don't, they have a vested interest through their fantasy team or survival league. The same isn't true for College football. People tend to choose CFB teams due to regional proximity, being an alumnus, or for other personal reasons such as religious affiliation. The 80 left over teams will have their own division, which is what the majority of the fans will pay attention to. I don't see Utah and BYU fans, or anyone else for that matter, tuning in to watch USC and LSU in a separate 32 team league.

  • backpacn Sandy, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 8:18 p.m.

    twofer

    "I disagree about 32 teams being plausible. A league like that simply wouldn't be able to compete with the NFL, since all of the good players would simply opt to leave early and take the bigger money."

    Don't kid yourself. A league comprised of the 32 best programs would garner more revenue than the SEC, B1G, Big 12, ACC, and PAC 12 COMBINED. And who says they'd have to compete with the NFL. The NFL has absolutely no room for any more players than they're already taking in every year.

    "I don't see Utah and BYU fans, or anyone else for that matter, tuning in to watch USC and LSU in a separate 32 team league."

    You're claiming you don't tune in every week to watch the best SEC, Big 12 and B1G games, because that's exactly what you'd be watching with a 32-team league comprised of the best 32 teams in the country, only you'd be watching Alabama versus Oklahoma, Texas versus Ohio State, USC versus Michigan, Florida versus UCLA... every week.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 22, 2014 12:46 a.m.

    @ backpacn

    Can't have 32 winners in a league. It's impossible. Also, when I watch football I watch my team, local teams, and compelling conf. match-ups in that order, because I have an interest those games. I suspect that is true of most people. Sure I watch the big prime time games (or flip back and forth to them), but only if it doesn't interfere with another game that I care about. That is why I said fans would stop caring about USC and LSU in another division. Fans care about their team first.

    If the best 32 teams split into their own division, that would leave 90 other college football programs in their own division. Collectively they carry the majority of CFB fans, and in an ironic twist the "non-elite" league would be the most popular and that's where the cash flow would eventually switch to.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 22, 2014 6:23 a.m.

    @backpacn

    Don't kid yourself. A league comprised of the 32 best programs would garner more revenue than the SEC, B1G, Big 12, ACC, and PAC 12 COMBINED.

    ----------------

    How so? How does having less inventory (aka games) and less product to sell, equals more revenues?

    On average, the P5 collects a combined $1.1 billion annually from their network partners, and about $300 million from bowl games and NCAA tournament seeds.

    Are you claiming that all 32 teams will play in bowl games and play in the NCAA tournament? If not, then revenues have already decreased in your scenario.

    Conferences with more schools have a financial advantage thanks to a larger inventory to sell network partners and more teams that are able to fight for bowl games and tournament seeds. With TV rights generating the most revenues. That's why the Big 10 went after Rutgers for the #1 TV market and not BYU.

    Will decrease of inventory (aka half the game, bowls, seeding) be offset by increased TV revenues?

    You need to provide data that shows TV revenues will increase significantly with less inventory to make a 32 team NCAA division a reality. Otherwise you're just whistling dixie.

    Source: Forbes
    The Most Valuable Conferences In College Sports 2014

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 22, 2014 7:44 a.m.

    @Two For Flinching

    I don't see Utah and BYU fans, or anyone else for that matter, tuning in to watch USC and LSU in a separate 32 team league.

    -------------

    You are correct and it is because college football is a regional sport, with college football being most popular in the SEC region.

    Let's look at last years numbers, average TV viewership and ratings:

    1 Alabama 6,465,000 3.9
    2 Texas A&M 5,263,900 3.3
    3 Michigan 5,257,381 3.3

    20 Northwestern 2,684,300 1.7
    23 Mississippi State 2,607,429 1.6
    24 Mississippi 2,536,750 1.5
    25 Arkansas 2,485,000 1.5
    26 Texas 2,408,778 1.5
    27 Oregon 2,372,350 1.5
    28 North Carolina 2,244,500 1.5
    29 UCLA 2,235,650 1.4
    30 USC 2,205,000 1.4
    31 Purdue 2,203,500 1.5
    32 Iowa 2,171,250 1.4

    55 Boise State 1,189,429 0.8
    56 San Diego State 1,134,250 0.7
    57 BYU 1,129,444 0.7

    What? I thought BYU has a "world-wide" brand?

    Source: College Football TV Ratings for Teams and Conferences: 2013 Regular Season

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    Aug. 22, 2014 10:06 a.m.

    RE: Uteology

    Weird how you forgot to leave the other Utah teams off your ratings list. Here, let me provide a more complete picture...

    57 BYU 1,129,444 0.7 9
    71 USU 731,000 0.5 4
    73 Utah 662,000 0.4 5

    BYU may not have the "world-wide" brand you referred to, but at least they get more viewers than Northern Illinois, Washington State, Uconn, Virginia, and Fresno State (all BYU opponents that have higher viewership than Utah).

  • Mesa Coug Phoenix, AZ
    Aug. 22, 2014 11:41 a.m.

    A 32 team semi-pro league would collect more money per team than the current 65 will. They could create a real playoff further increasing revenues. They could then make the players paid employees of the school bypassing the title 9 requirements of women's sports.

    The remaining schools could continue having student athletes under the current rules. I wouldn't mind if BYU were left behind in this scenario. It would return amateurism to the bulk of college sports. And Two for would still be able to watch and follow the local team.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 25, 2014 9:28 a.m.

    Taylormade,

    Your silence is deafening!

    Still no names of the supposed east coast media member who thinks byU will be included in some way with the big boys within 4 years?

    I provided proof from the LA times that once again shows the experts don't see how byu fits into the big boys.

    Your evidence?

    Crickets!

  • SportsFan Orem, UT
    Aug. 25, 2014 3:22 p.m.

    Chris B

    Who cares what pundits currently think?

    The truth is, NOBODY knows how things are going to play out in the next 3 or 4 years.

    One single move, like Texas joining the Big Ten, could start another conference realignment frenzy.

  • TheVoiceofTruth Austin, TX
    March 20, 2015 12:54 a.m.

    When I read the very odd and poorly laid out piece suggesting that BYU will be forced to drop athletics in accordance with some new direction by the schools owners, I immediately thought that it was simply a "stir the pot, get people talking" attempt, a cheap publicity gimmick. I have not changed my mind. BYU's owners would be throwing away more millions if they did so, than one can realize on the surface. Every one of their contracts to play a game incLuke's a buy-out clause, imagine paying the $750,000-$1.5 million buyouts to 20-30 schools, in the case of neutral sites, add another millions per game. Maintaining LES, while not having game revenue would be crazy expensive. All this said, how many big donors supporting academics, became involved because of their interest in BYU Sports? Some non-LDS but supportive of possibly one of the cleanest football/basketball programs in Div 1/FBS? I've read the reports on Syracuse, and a federal judge's finding at Chapel Hill or UNC. Paper No-Show classes, pressing a Dean or professor to change grades to keep a kid eligible, and these are repeat findings, both schools have had similar "problems"