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Hawaii AD: 'There is a very real possibility of football going away'

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  • taylormade1 Springville, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 12:57 p.m.

    This is just the beginning of the new college football landscape. There is certain to be other state owned schools that are forced to drop their football programs that are currently operating in the red. Last report i saw showed 23-25 division 1 schools in the nation that actually operate in the black. Welcome to the new college football era !

  • Johnny Triumph American Fork, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 12:59 p.m.

    This will be the state of many Universities' athletic programs. It's going to get harder and harder to compete with the big boys when the money just isn't there.

  • Max-was-right springville, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 12:58 p.m.

    Pretty sad that a university has to eliminate sports and then a team like Utah can no longer go to bowl games.

  • taylormade1 Springville, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 1:12 p.m.

    Once again Chris comments before he thinks. State owned schools football teams that operate in the red as well as consistently finish in the bottom of their conference are going to be the first real casualties to this new football era. What a great day to be a fan of a private school that has the resources to call its own shots !

  • Uncle Rico Sandy, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 1:17 p.m.

    Christy,
    The sky isn't falling for BYU. BYU has a large international following and plenty of money to do what it wants.
    I look forward to your enthusiastic posts as your team loses every week.

    LOL

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 1:22 p.m.

    taylormade,

    Every power 5 conference and its presidents and AD's are supportive of the continued changes to give the P5 schools more autonomy and to further separate from the mid majors.

    If there was reason for the power conference teams to worry - we'd be hearing it. Instead, the Power 5 have been PUSHING for these changes. Every single P5 program is going to be just fine!

  • BleedCougarBlue Enid, OK
    Aug. 19, 2014 1:23 p.m.

    What a sad day for Norm Chow.

    Unfortunately he's fallen a long way from his glory days at BYU and in the pros.

    Good luck, Coach!

  • CougarSunDevil Phoenix, AZ
    Aug. 19, 2014 1:32 p.m.

    "Every single P5 program is going to be just fine!"

    No their not. Schools have been whittling away at who is "in" and who is "out" The P6 got rid of the Big East. Next, get rid of all the "mid majors" and you have 65ish teams who are equal in every way? Nope. Then the next model is to push out any team that isn't producing enough. Eventually, you have one 24 team conference consisting of Florida State, USC, Oregon, Texas, Oklahoma, Ohio State, Michigan, and a handful of others at the top. The Utah's, Iowa's, Kansas' of college football will then be crying their eyes out.

  • taylormade1 Springville, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 1:42 p.m.

    Chris,
    This is going to be simple economics moving forward. Now be honest with me, would you invest your hard earned money in a business that operates in the red ?

  • taylormade1 Springville, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 1:45 p.m.

    Cougarsundevil,
    Thanks so much for explaining it in simple terms black and white !

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 19, 2014 1:53 p.m.

    @CougarSunDevil

    Wishful thinking. WSU, Utah, OSU...all recieve $22 million for football, from TV rights alone. Keeping wishing for Utahs demise; I know that's your #1 hope in life. Pretty sad when you think about it! Also pretty cool how you can predict the future; simply amazing!

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 2:05 p.m.

    taylormade,

    Silly taylormade1, are you really suggesting that any program that operates in the red is going to cease to exist simply because the Power conferences are getting more power? There is no logic in that argument. Many programs have existed in the red and they continue to exist right? Why haven't they disappeared already if your logic is anything in the red will cease to exist?

    Even some big time programs like Florida and Penn State operate in the red. Are you really claiming those programs will cease to exist soon because they lose money?

    You don't understand college football do you?

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 19, 2014 2:06 p.m.

    Hawaii's defecit is projected to be $1.5 million next year. Cost for teams to come play at Hawaii is $1.5 million. That's the killer for Hawaii. To group everyone else in this unique sitiatiion is pretty stupid. To act as if the Utah, WSU, Iowa, Kentucky,.. etc; are going to get squeezed out is even more stupid. It's actually wishful thinking on the part of an arrogant fan base who's on the outside looking in.

  • Old But Not Stupid Moorpark, CA
    Aug. 19, 2014 2:21 p.m.

    Chris B
    Salt Lake City, UT

    "Instead, the Power 5 have been PUSHING for these changes." They better watch out; greed is gonna kill 'em.

    "Every single P5 program is going to be just fine!" Except for the perennial bottom feeders and cannon fodder.

    While the P5 appear to be "printing" money, schools like the U will not have enough without public taxes and bonds to renovate (i.e., redo) Rice-Eccles. When that happens the smart Utahns will grab their pitch forks and converge on SLC.

    The other issue is that with the failure of the U.S. dollar (currently in progress), all that "money" ain't gonna be worth much anyway.

  • Kralon HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA
    Aug. 19, 2014 2:25 p.m.

    P5 conferences have 65 teams, how many of those teams operate in the red? Just over 50!

    With the coming changes there will be more red ink and some P5 schools will feel the financial pressure to keep up. The only way they will be able to continue is by booster donations and some won't make it!

  • taylormade1 Springville, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 2:28 p.m.

    Chris,
    Where in my comments did i say the "U" ?

  • Old But Not Stupid Moorpark, CA
    Aug. 19, 2014 2:29 p.m.

    Chris B
    Salt Lake City, UT

    taylormade, "You don't understand college football do you?"

    I have to say that taylormade understands football better than you understand government finance.

    Running in the RED is not the smart thing to do; it's actually the DUMB thing to do. Yet, you wear it as a badge of courage or honor. No wonder our profligate nation is failing.

    You won't be "borrowing it from ourselves," you (including the Floridas and Penn States in the world) are "borrowing" it ultimately from the taxpayers, who I hope wise up and soon.

  • taylormade1 Springville, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 2:37 p.m.

    Chris,
    Talk about silly, you are really not putting the U in the same category as Florida and Penn State are you? Those teams have a rich history and a storied football program just like our team down south !

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 2:49 p.m.

    taylomade,

    You are the one suggesting something operating in the red will cease to exist soon. Using that "logic" every football program that has operated in the red for a few years should not exist today right?

    Well, there are many big time programs that have operated in the red for a long time - and still doing very well!

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 2:53 p.m.

    @spokane ute

    Good grief that was a thoughtless post considering there are dozens of posts every single day on here from utah "fans" predicting the demise of BYU athletics. Yet somehow none of those gets your ire, instead someone points out the much more real scenario of a losing athletic program like utah that not only loses games but also loses money, BY THE MILLIONS, perhaps not being in the hunky dory glory seat you utah "fans" fantasize that they are in and you melt down over it.

    LOL!

  • SEC Rules Seminole, FL
    Aug. 19, 2014 2:53 p.m.

    Fates are being decided before a ball is even snapped. Football is a game that is to be contested on the gridiron, not in some board room by a bunch of money grubbing stuffed shirts. This is grounds for an Anti Trust suit.

    College football is being destroyed. Way to go P5.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 3:00 p.m.

    It's their punishment for saying they won't schedule us and for not releasing the one player to transfer to us.

  • G-Day-M8 Where is Waldo, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 3:31 p.m.

    My banker years ago told me, debt is not equity.

    The PAC 12, according to a May 2014 article, produced $335,000,000 (million) in Fiscal year 2013 and reported $336,000,000 (million) in expenses for the same fiscal year. In fairness, the Pac 12 network spent about 10% or $31,000,000 on a new home office and upstart costs for the PAC 12 network. Each member school received just over $19,000,000 except for utah which received $10,200,000.

    The member schools have to date over $1,000,000,000 (billion) in construction projects with 90% financed by debt instruments.

    Utah spent $32,000,000 on their new FB facility and from an article in May 2013 from the paper up north only half was gifted and the other half is debt instrument funding based on future league revenue projections. The basketball practice facility has a price tag of $24,000,000 and that does not include the stadium plans or a host of other athletic venues such as the tennis facility.

    To me, this gross debt enslavement of the taxpayers based solely on projected revenue is beyond irresponsible and borders criminal.

  • BigDaddyCoug SARATOGA SPRINGS, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 3:39 p.m.

    I think the point here is be careful what you wish for. This is not a new idea from just college football. People seeking for money and power have been around since the beginning of time. Funny thing is, they don't like to share either. You're kidding yourself if you think 65 is the end. I've been saying that all along (just not on these boards). The big programs with big dollars want to finish off the non P5 first, then they will turn to house cleaning. It it just common sense. I don't think everyone will stop playing football though. I just think we will eventually be back where we started, minus 20 or so teams. Problem is, there aren't enough fans to pay for everything once you whittle it down, so that will come crashing down too. This is just plain stupid, no matter who you cheer for.

  • G-Day-M8 Where is Waldo, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 3:44 p.m.

    Continued:

    Anyone, who has had to live on a real budget, knows that debt is not equity and future projections do not guarantee results.

    Too many people have been fed the line that debt is good and I can play now and pay later. I have a renter who is in school at SLCC and every semester I get a check from him for 4 months rent. Guess where it comes from? Yup, from student loans and grant money.

    Our u friends, like chris b who continually shout that utah is guaranteed immunity from ever being kicked to the curb are living in a fantasy dream world.

    Our debt driven society can't continue forever, the piper will call and u will be homeless.

  • tinplater scottsdale, AZ
    Aug. 19, 2014 4:04 p.m.

    I think it is inevitable that we will end up with "major league" college football, and then lower division football. As an Aggie, I have no problem with USU playing in a "minor" league composed of equals. It is ridiculous to think a relatively small state school in a rural setting can be competitive with larger programs. Fans of the Ivy League enjoy their games just as much as the PAC 12 fans do..just a different level of competition. And every so often, the minor league team surprises the major league team (ala USU beating Utah several years ago). But I do not see football at USU going away, the sport is too much a part of our college experience culture.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 4:23 p.m.

    I remember the old days of BYU flying out there and going to the beach and getting all washed out and then getting blown out during the game. Adjusting to the travel - the humidity - the beach etc... was such a HUGE advantage. Hawaii would rarely win on the road. I think college football is changing dramatically and it feels like teams are scrambling to see if they can survive. BYU will probably also see its days numbered in football at least. Maybe Lavell Edwards stadium can be turned into a scout camp or something.

  • Copacetic Logan, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 4:26 p.m.

    @ Chris B and Spokane Ute:

    What you guys and undoubtedly some other Ute fans fail to realize is that there are varying degrees of operating in the red. Obviously, a team $5,000,000 in the red is in a lot worse shape than a team operating at $5,000 in the red. The first mentioned school will be forced to drop their sports programs a lot sooner than the other.

    Another thing you are not considering is that school budgets are getting tighter and tighter. As people allow their student loans to go unpaid (and that's a quickly growing segment) in our Obama-level economy, new student loans will be more difficult to obtain. Fewer student loans means less revenue for colleges. Less money equates to more budgets in the red.

    It's a reasonable assumption that more mid-major programs will get hurt before P-5 programs will. But once the mid-majors have taken their lumps, the next to be filtered out will be P-5 programs that play like mid-majors. And unless something changes very soon, Utah will be included in that group, as will most other lowest tier conference teams.

  • BayAreaCougar Pleasanton, CA
    Aug. 19, 2014 4:26 p.m.

    First of all I think some of the Ute fans think that "running in the red" is a good thing, all there players run around in red all the time.

    Secondly, the reality of the likely changes is that there will be a dramatic increase in expense. Without an corresponding increase in revenue the teams in the black could go red and the teams in red will go "redder." Where will this increase in revenue come from?

    For Utah, I expect that the conference will want to keep teams around. It will likely not be good, in the playoff era, to have too much parity. You will need to have teams that are not as challenging as the top tier.

    Schools like Oregon, Washington, USC and UCLA won't want to complete with Utah and Colorado for athletes but they will want the "in conference" wins. I don't predict the demise of Utah football.

    The Utah Jazz are a benefit to the NBA, why? So the top teams can beat up on them. Don't be fooled into thinking they have a shot unless they dig deeper into their own pockets. Same for Utah and BYU in the future.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 4:33 p.m.

    G-Day-M8:
    Excellent post that describes the problem in our country as well as CFB these days. Debt is undoubtedly not equity but don't tell that to fans like Chris B who think they know the financial implications of the future of CFB but obviously have no concept of economics (macro or micro). Anyone who believes any business entity can continue to exist while bathing in red ink year after year obviously has no idea about finance. Yes the government will subsidize or student fees can be raised, but eventually the taxpayer and students will say "no more" and that will be it.

    Smart companies only spend based on assets and capital. The minute they start borrowing against future projections is when their stocks start falling and they are closing doors and laying people off. Thank goodness the LDS church functions on a zero debt financial platform. BYU will be fine, and some have speculated that the current landscape of greater autonomy and benefits to athletes actually favors BYUs business model.

  • FDRfan Sugar City, ID
    Aug. 19, 2014 5:04 p.m.

    I'm all in on the BYU Idaho model and wish all universities and colleges would follow suit. Consider the problems that would be eliminated.

  • NevadaCoug Overton, NV
    Aug. 19, 2014 5:38 p.m.

    Hawaii is obviously in a unique situation because of travel costs. They have to travel farther than any other team for EVERY road game. Those costs are huge. Add in the subsidies they have to offer to get teams to travel to play them? Of course they are going to have trouble paying for that.

    Thus, nobody with a brain will use Hawaii as an example of what could happen to any other football program. When teams on the mainland fold because of costs, then you can have your "doomsday" model.

    Re: tinplatter
    Well said. I, too, will continue to support my team no matter what level of college football they play.

  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    Aug. 19, 2014 6:46 p.m.

    Spokane Ute

    Sorry, bro, gotta call you out on this one, but as others already have, I'll be nice about it. As pointned out, numerous posters of the red persuasion are predicting at least that BYU falls out of the arms race, if not completely out of collegiate athletics. You seem to have only seen the flip side of this bickering banter.

    Now my experience with you has been that you are extremely reasonable, until someone gets your goat. Probably why I like you so much, because I can relate.

    So, no one can predict the future with certainty, but what I think is obvious is that, even with the infusion of a full revenue share of PAC TV money, when the big boys up the anti, the net result will look very much the same.

    The fundamentel question has been asked (but not answered) by Chris B: how long will universities continue to operate in the red before having to declare a state of emergency?

  • the greater truth Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 7:10 p.m.

    Rather than following the model of college basketball, that is wildly successful in both popularity and financially and promotes equal opportunity.

    The P5s are destroying college football with their elitism.

  • Missourian Fulton, MO
    Aug. 19, 2014 7:21 p.m.

    Time for the tax payers to weigh in. BYU and the church have already taken steps to curb expenses. Athletics play an important role in education, just like music and art and other cultural programs. When athletes generate enough to cover the cost of their own education, including the cost of maintaining facilities and the expense of the million dollar salaries paid out to coaches then they can talk about being paid. As for the role of the P5 conferences closing down the smaller schools, you need look no farther than the NFLand AFL to see what greed can accomplish.

  • SLC BYU Fan Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 7:36 p.m.

    BYU dropping football at the very least? I think people who think that this has never been discussed at the highest levels at 47 E. So. Temple are more than just naive. While the BYU program has a huge level of booster support advantage over the two other FBS level programs, the league alignment questions and associated stability could erode this in the years ahead. But some unintended consequences could come if BYU were to drop their football program or athletics in general that would never achieve any gains at established state school sponsored programs at Utah and Utah State. First of all UVU would start a program to fill the Utah County void and given the enrollment and alumni demographics this would be Boise State burying Idaho all over again in a shorter time frame. Secondly with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell asking media partners for more non-Sunday inventory, Salt Lake City would in all likelihood in that vacuum end up with an expansion or relocated NFL team, which would dilute any gains Utah made by going to the Pac-12 (notice Arizona State after the Cardinals arrived in 1988).

  • Quite Frankly Provo, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 7:48 p.m.

    I think this the beginning of the end for some of the non-P5 schools. I think Byu-Provo will be in trouble when the mandatory P5 vs P5 scheduling legislation gets submitted and passed leaving Byu-Provo only to play teams from the Group of Five conferences because they'll get dropped by everyone in the major conferences. That will hurt their season ticket sales and there won't be an ESPN contract anymore. Would the brethren shut the program down if it became more irrelevant than it already is? Questions to ponder.

  • NeilT Clearfield, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 8:09 p.m.

    The real issue is being ignored. How many players for BYU, USU, U of U are Hawaii natives. Or from Tonga, Samoa etc. Players are leaving the islands to play on the mainland. There may be several reasons. They may be LDS and want to play for BYU. Then there is media coverage. What time zone Hawaii in? What time is it on the east coast when Hawaii plays a home game. I hope Football survives at Hawaii. Great experience for players to travel and have a fun time.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 8:29 p.m.

    Y Grad / Y Dad
    "how long will universities continue to operate in the red before having to declare a state of emergency?"

    You act as if "operating in the red" is suddenly a new thing. An "emergency" brought to light by P5 autonomy. Many programs have been red for years and years.

    So why keep at it? BYU isn't unique; sports is a marketing tool for all schools. Athletics is the most visible fund-raising tool for universities, even down at division 2 and 3. Who knows how much further in the red those schools would be without athletics. Without athletics, some schools which are in the black today, may fall into the red.

    This talking point is only recently of great interest to Cougar fans, probably because of a string of snubs by P5 programs. They need something to hang their hat on so they found "operating in the black". Hopefully, they'll soon realize how BORING it is to talk about athletics economics, and move on to something else. The season can't start soon enough.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 10:46 p.m.

    Sooner Ute:
    Operating in the red is certainly not a new thing, but paying players stipends, providing medical insurance even after graduation, guaranteed scholarships regardless of production, and having to pay players for using their name and likeness instead of pocketing that revenue ARE new things. Anyone who doesn't believe this will have financial repercussions on those programs that aren't the big money makers is truly naive. We just don't know what all the unintended consequences will be, and that is, or should be, a little unnerving to lesser programs both in and outside the P5. I don't think your Sooners have anything to worry about, but Utah may face some financial struggles trying to keep pace with the richer, more elite programs in the PAC12.

  • Rockarolla West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 19, 2014 11:32 p.m.

    The way Hawaii has been playing the last few years, would anyone notice?

  • DrUte Woods Cross, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 7:03 a.m.

    Yes, what a terrible problem to have up on The Hill.

    $20M - $30M or more a year. Every year.

    Recruiting for football and basketball on the rise, with notable improvement in depth, speed, and skill position skill sets.

    Terrible. Just terrible.

    And of course no operational or financial skills to manage the windfall.

    "The sky is falling --- the sky is falling!!!"

    Sure is tough to be in the P5, guess The U will just have to suffer through it!!

    --- But you know, it's sooooo Great to be a Ute!!! :)

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 7:26 a.m.

    @spokane ute

    What Utah fans fail to consider with their arrogant "we're on the inside" chest pounding, is that when the big boys like Texas, USC, Alabama and the like are finished marginalizing the non-P5s, they may very well decide that the P5 bottom dwellers like Utah are no longer needed.

    It's not out of the realm of possibility that a "super conference" of 32 elite college teams is their end goal. Which teams would make the final cut is still debatable, but what's not debatable is where that would leave teams like Utah, Indiana and Vanderbilt.

    U can bury your head in the sand and pretend that's not a realistic possibility, but the truth is, you're just as vulnerable as the non-P5s to being left on the outside looking in, you will simply take a little longer to get there.

  • G-Day-M8 Where is Waldo, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 7:33 a.m.

    SoonerUte

    All of this red and black is based solely on speculation that revenues will continue beyond anyones ability to accurately forecast.

    It appears to me that a select few men are conspiring to monopolize college football for their own selfish gain and they have a product that is driven by the appetites and emotions of the masses.

    If/when many of the major talking points of P5 autonomy are implemented, the cost of doing business will climb significantly. The extra costs alone will eat up more than enough of the money each school receives from the mega media deals and they will be living from paycheck to paycheck. Combine that with the extraordinary debt that many schools are incurring and you have a looming disaster.

    The real financial success of the new P5 model is all based on "projected" revenue, stretching in most conferences 10 plus years. The pot is looking pretty full today but what about tomorrow or next year?

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 7:45 a.m.

    First they came…" is a poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.

    When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.
    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    When they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.

    When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a Jew.

    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out.

    ---------------

    College football is a game, but there are still lessons to be learned from history.

    While Utah fans are gloating about the fact that Utah "currently" is on the "inside looking out", they may want to consider what the college football elites will do with the P5 non-elites, once they've eliminated the non-P5s.

  • UoU 1991 Park City, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 7:52 a.m.

    DrUte

    The sky may indeed be falling if Utah doesn't start addressing their $400+ million maintenance backlog.

    While Utah is adding shiny new athletic facilities, and taking on massive debt to pay for them, their classroom buildings are falling apart.

  • 65TossPowerTrap Salmon, ID
    Aug. 20, 2014 8:34 a.m.

    Why would anyone brag about being the Kansas of the Pac-12?

  • 81Ute Central, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 8:54 a.m.

    So, when the few power P5 (PP5) schools have purged the Weak 5 (W5) and Independents (I4) and then the lowly P5 schools, exactly who would the PP5 play? I mean let's do the math:
    Let's say that there are 5 PP5 per conference that is 25 teams. So, therefore, we will be left with 25 PP5 teams to play each other (-65) = 40 P5 teams to play each other. W5+I4 = WI9 to...

    Seriously? You actually believe that the P5 are going to cannabalize themselves out of existence? What is happening now is similar to what happened in 1978 (that too was supposed to kill college football). The end game is known, here is my prediction: P5 schools will play 11 P5 games per year and one WI9 game per year. No more Div-1AA games allowed.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 20, 2014 9:08 a.m.

    @BlueCoug

    I will believe it when I see it. I totally disagree though; it's not going to happen during my life time. I highly doubt BYU fans would take this postion if they were in the BIG 12. It's merely hoping for the demise of your rival. Kinda sad, really.

    @81Ute

    Agreed. You are spot on!

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 20, 2014 9:19 a.m.

    YGrad/YDad

    I guess we will somewhat agree to disagree. I do believe that colleges need to trim the budget in many, many ways. Look at the cost of tuition; Yikes. My daughter is starting at WSU this year; $25K/year for everything. However, I totally disagree with the notion that the major university (power house football programs) are going to reduce down to 20-25. Like others have questioned; who would they play? imagine the travel cost? I just don't see it happening. Utah is a good fit and belongs in the PAC 12. Just like WSU, Colorado, Oregon State and Arizona are.

    As always; I appreciate your civil response. You come across as a very level headed and good guy. I hope all is well with you and yours; Take Care my Man!

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 9:29 a.m.

    Cougsndawgs, you're mixing a couple of issues. A legal issue like paying players for their name and likeness affects all schools, regardless of P5 autonomy. Mercy on BYU if the court decision means they owe back wages for Jimmer jerseys.

    Stipends, medical insurance, guaranteed scholarships are optional items considered for competitive advantages in recruiting. Optional is the key word. You say "struggle to keep up", but that happens today! A player recruited by USC and Utah is already a tough get for Utah. Money won't change that. It will simply become a choice of "X money from USC; Y money from Utah. Bench time at USC; playing time at Utah".

    With optional spending, the big-money teams risk overspending (as Texas competes with Alabama, for example). The smaller-money schools will be more measured about their spending. They won't get into a bidding war. They don't today, they won't tomorrow.

    By no means is this the doom and gloom "end of college football". FCS National Champion North Dakota State will keep taking the field no matter what FBS champion Florida State decides to spend.

  • GK Willington Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 9:33 a.m.

    re: taylormade1

    "This is going to be simple economics moving forward. Now be honest with me, would you invest your hard earned money in a business that operates in the red ?"

    With that logic no one should pay taxes?

  • GK Willington Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 9:36 a.m.

    re: SEC Rules

    "Fates are being decided before a ball is even snapped. Football is a game that is to be contested on the gridiron, not in some board room by a bunch of money grubbing stuffed shirts."

    This is what happens when the market is over-saturated w/ J.D.'s and M.B.A.'s.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 9:52 a.m.

    @drute

    "Recruiting for football and basketball on the rise, with notable improvement in depth, speed, and skill position skill sets."

    That is demonstrably false. In fact utah's football recruiting has declined each of the last several years and is currently sitting ranked in the 80's by both Scout and even the utah homers site Rivals. If even your homer site ranks you in the 80's then you are certainly not getting anything worth bragging about.

  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 9:53 a.m.

    to BlueCoug...

    What's funny is the comical spinning of cougar fans about how byu is in a better position.

    Mucho ironic when fans of a religious institution brag about fiscal well being. Don't you think?

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 10:06 a.m.

    to SoonerUte

    Excellent points. We may see a Moneyball approach used by "smaller" P5 schools

  • deductive reasoning Arlington, VA
    Aug. 20, 2014 10:10 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    Of course, you'll believe it when you see, but just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it hasn't already been discussed amongst the elites of college football.

    -------------

    81Ute

    All you have to do is look at what's happening in the Big 12; why should the conference expand when 10 teams can divide the same revenue as they'd get with 12 teams?

    Take that example to another level.

    Why would the elite teams want to continue sharing the pie with 65 teams, if they could divide the same pie amongst 32 or even 24 teams?

    Why would USC, UCLA, Oregon, and Stanford continue sharing the PAC 12 pie with Utah, Colorado, and Washington St, if they could divide the same size pie 4 ways, instead of 12?

    Utah fans are extremely naive if they think that those kinds of discussions amongst the elites aren't already going on behind closed doors.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 20, 2014 10:22 a.m.

    GK Willington said:

    With that logic no one should pay taxes?

    -----

    Nicely done; very sad; but very, very true!

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 10:26 a.m.

    SoonerUte:
    Thanks for the civil and thoughtful response. I do agree with you on many points. I think in the end what BYU fans are trying to point out to ute fans is that there WILL be further separation in CFB even between the P5 programs. How long will USC be ok sharing equally with Utah? How long will Ohio State and Texas be ok sharing equally with Rutgers and Iowa State? I think we will all see that equal revenue sharing won't work as the Big Dogs clamour for more money to fill their exorbitant budgets.

    As for scheduling between 30-32 teams, 81Ute is wrong. The NFL does it every year and is still the highest rated sport in America.

    Answer us honestly...are Utah fans ok with trying to compete against programs they will never match in spending, revenue, or recruiting, relegating them to mid-lower tier status the rest of their CFB existence? It's a legit question that I'm sure many ute fans will answer with a yes...for now. How about 10 years from now? Losing gets old regardless what league you're in.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    Aug. 20, 2014 10:32 a.m.

    Mister J

    "Mucho ironic when fans of a religious institution brag about fiscal well being. Don't you think?"

    I don't see anything "ironic" about fans of an institution that prides itself on fiscal responsibility reminding fans of an institution whose program runs in the red, that serious trouble lies ahead if they don't change their free-spending habits.

    Utah has a $400+ million maintenance backlog, yet they're frivolously spending money that they don't have and running up huge debts based on a gravy train of money that is far from guaranteed.

  • Wally West SLC, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 10:37 a.m.

    re: deductive reasoning

    "Why would USC, UCLA, Oregon, and Stanford continue sharing the PAC 12 pie with Utah, Colorado, and Washington St, if they could divide the same size pie 4 ways, instead of 12?

    Utah fans are extremely naive if they think that those kinds of discussions amongst the elites aren't already going on behind closed doors."

    Stanford wasn't always elite. Notre Dame was the juggernaut at one point. Sports, like everything else, is cyclical.

    Even if the so called elites fracture further; that would make Utah a tier 2 and byu a tier 3.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 20, 2014 11:01 a.m.

    @Deductive resoning

    Conversely, what evidence do you have that any such discussions have taken place? Please provide any information that backs up your position. Speculation and wishful thinking is all that you have to go on. That and 75 cents, will get you a Deseret News, newspaper.

    CougsandDawgs

    You are speculating that Utah will be losing 10 years from now. Washington state was horrible 3-4 years ago, yet they went to the Rose Bowl in 1999. Not to mention that Leech has them on the upswing. These things go in cycles. Look no further than Oregon, UCLA, and Tennessee for that matter.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    Aug. 20, 2014 11:13 a.m.

    Wally West

    What makes you think that Utah wouldn't drop to tier 3 as soon as the big boys of the PAC 12 deserted them?

    The ONLY thing the Utes have going for them is their PAC 12 membership.

    If the gravy train of money that the PAC 12 gets because of USC and UCLA were to shrink or dry up, the Utes wouldn't even be able to pay the bills for their new athletic facilities.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    Aug. 20, 2014 11:26 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    Remind us the first, last, or any time the Utes were top dogs of a P5 conference; the Utes have only been able to win one MWC championship under Whittingham's watch.

    Only six WAC/MWC championships in almost 50 years doesn't say much for Utah's historic chances of ever being able to break into the upper echelon of the PAC 12, even for a season or two.

  • BlueHusky Mission Viejo, CA
    Aug. 20, 2014 11:32 a.m.

    Good for Utah! In the catbird seat with their $20 million from TV revenues. What happens when the networks lose money on those contracts? They start showing only the "big" games from the "major teams". Utah, WSU et al will be lucky to get a game one a year. And, by the way, $20 million won't go as far when U have to compete with USC for jocks. They'll be able to outbid Utah every time.

    Sadly, most fans can't see the house of cards the P5 is building. It'll crash down. It is just a monopolistic ploy to corner the TV market for 65 teams. The antitrust suits will be filed soon.

    As for the unwashed, why not set up a real tournament? Give competition a chance.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 11:37 a.m.

    Wally:
    We aren't talking about the winningest programs in the P5, we're also talking about the biggest earners with the biggest fanbases and biggest budgets. The separation among P5 programs will happen because of...wait for it...money! The same reason separation will occur now. Whether Michigan goes 3-9 or 9-3, they will always be elite because of money (fanbase, endowment, boosters, etc).

    SpokaneUte:
    WSU went to the Rose Bowl 15 years ago. 15 years ago there wasn't even close to the amount of money, expansion, and one-upmanship that you see today. WSU will not be returning to the Rose Bowl any time soon, if ever under the current circumstances. You're honestly going to compare fiscal and competitive issues from 1999 with the current state of things? Face it...USC & UCLA will always be elite in the PAC because of MONEY, not because they are winning championships. Utah will never be elite because they can't compare when it comes to how much money they bring to the table. It will be MONEY that further separates the haves from have-nots in the future.

  • TroyTown Anaheim, CA
    Aug. 20, 2014 11:46 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    It's laughable how you're okay with Utah fans speculating endlessly about the possible demise of BYU football, yet when BYU fans speculate about the possible demise of Utah football, you instantly demand proof.

    LOL at your inconsistency!

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 20, 2014 12:14 p.m.

    @CougarsandDawgs

    You do realize that PAC 12 schools split the future TV revenue equally right? USC, UCLA, Utah and WSU each get $22+ mill/year. I'm sure you also realize that bowl revenue is shared. You make is sound as if Cal Berkley will be going away too. You act as if USC get's $40 mill per year; with WSU get's $4. Way off. I never compared fisal compensation now to 15 years ago now did I? I merely pointed out that winning goes in cycles; just as Wally West point out. There's no need to use capital letters; I certainly understand the term "money"; even though I never seem to have enough of it.

    Troytown

    How dare I ask for facts and statistics to back up a position. Talk about LOL. The fact that BYU isn't in a P5 conference and will receive less revenue from the new playoff then Nevada will speaks for itself. If you would like to discuss TV or bowl revenue between Utah and BYU I'm open to the conversation. Care to compare the two?

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 12:50 p.m.

    Cougsndawgs "Answer us honestly...are Utah fans ok with trying to compete..."
    I believe Utah fans are comfortable trying to compete against bigger programs. Ute fans enjoy being the underdog. Being an underdog has great payoff when you reach the final four, or upset Alabama in the Sugar Bowl, or knock off Stanford at home.

    BYU fans are the complete opposite, I believe. They expect winning, and prefer to be in situations where winning is likely. Listening to a BYU fan, one would think that the football program was founded in 1972 with LaVell Edwards as their first coach. Pre-1972 is rarely referred to, like the Crowton years.

    Years of dominating WAC football and a NC set the expectation to "always win". As much as a BYU fan wants to be included in a P5 conference, in the end they would hate it. As you say, years of losing would get old, and BYU fans wouldn't react well to that.

    It is good for the state that a program got into the P5 level. BYU better than Utah? Debate that all day. But there is no doubt that Utah fans have the patient underdog mentality the P5 road requires.

  • TroyTown Anaheim, CA
    Aug. 20, 2014 1:13 p.m.

    SoonerUte

    Listening to Utah fans, you'd think the program was founded in 2004 with Urban Meyer. Pre-2004 is rarely referred to, like the WAC years.

    Years of being nothing but a WAC bottom feeder set the expectation that constantly being beaten like a drum, with losing, bowl less seasons, is fine as long as you can occasionally beat BYU.

    It's obvious why Utah fans have the patient underdog mentality; the Utes haven't been THE top dog in any conference that any of them actually remembers.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 1:35 p.m.

    SpokaneUte:
    Yes, of course I know that revenue is shared equally. That's my point...how long will USC & UCLA be ok with that when they and everyone else knows they're worth more than Utah and Colorado? The Big Dogs will not be ok with that in the future as budgets and athletes' benefits become greater burdens on the university pocket book.

    I apologize for using capitals...I did it to help prove my point. And my point to you and Wally was that winning and cycles aren't the biggest issue here...it's the money-making, elite programs as I pointed out. It's the fact that Michigan & ND make just as much money (far more than most) regardless of whether they go 3-9 or 9-3. With that in mind winning and cycles becomes a moot point.

    As for BYU fans wanting wins at all costs that may be true for some, but not the ones I know. They would prefer being in the Big 12, but like ute fans they would probably have to realize that winning would not come as easily or frequently...so I agree with you in that regard.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 1:41 p.m.

    Oops...my last paragraph was answering SoonerUte. Sorry I get you two mixed up lol.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 20, 2014 2:11 p.m.

    @CougsandDawgs

    UCLA and USC will be OK with it for quite a while. The current $3 Billion, PAC 12 channel contract runs through 2025. Let's revisit the issue then. 8-)

    @ SoonerUte

    Amen Brother.

    @Troytown

    I remember 2004 & 2008 very vividly. Still have a Sugar Bowl Hoddie and DVD. Nice try though. Bowl less seasons? Correct me if I'm wrong; but hasn't Utah been to a bowl like 10 of the last 12 seasons? Doesn't Utah have one of the longest bowl winning streaks, which was accomplished in the past 15 years or so? Swing and miss....keeeeep trying!

  • Solomon Levi Alpine, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 3:21 p.m.

    Spokane Ute

    "I remember 2004 & 2008 very vividly."

    Unfortunately you weren't THE top dog; in fact you completely collapsed after 2004 and limped into 2008 with an embarrassing shut out to 10-loss UNLV.

    Not exactly the trappings of a top dog in any conference.

    btw, Utah didn't even play in consecutive seasons during their "9-bowl winning streak" and the Utes only played one team that finished the season ranked in both polls, which makes Utah's bowl winning streak less of an accomplishment and more of a trivia question, like which team has the most consecutive seasons without being shut out.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 20, 2014 3:38 p.m.

    @Solomon Levi

    I'm quite content with 2008. I realize Utah didn't get to play a 6-5 Michigan team in the Sugar Bowl; but I'm cool with stomping an 11-1 Alabama in thier back yard.

    "Utah didn't even play in consecutive seasons during their "9-bowl winning streak""?

    Hmmm; which season did they sit out? What in the world are you talking about?

  • anti BCS Anaheim, CA
    Aug. 20, 2014 3:49 p.m.

    SpokaneUte

    Of course you're "quite content with 2008", it's the only season in which the Utes have actually accomplished something on a national scale against a decent, although, not top 50 schedule.

    Yet, even then, you still weren't good enough to finish higher than 4th in race for the Crystal Football National Championship Trophy.

    ---------------

    During Utah's 9-bowl winning streak, the Utes didn't even qualify for a bowl in 2000 or 2002.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 20, 2014 4:45 p.m.

    @ anti BCS

    Thanks for the news flash; nice to know Utah didn't go to a bowl 14 and 12 years ago. Enlightening. Well, not really......sheeesh!

    @ Solomon Levi

    BYU can't even win a conference because there not in one, and the Miami Beach Bowl isn't really a bowl because it's square and red cars drive fast around it...so there! btw their oppenent won't be ranked but might be trapping.

    In summary: Utah is pretty dang secure in the PAC 12. Hawaii is projecting a short fall of $1.5 million next year, and has to pay that same amount to have teams come play them. A unique, and bad situation; but one that has absolutely nothing to do Utah. Unless you want if and speculate to the 9th degree, and play connect the dots; many, many dots.

    Everyone have a great evening.

  • SportsFan Orem, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 5:10 p.m.

    Spokane Ute

    "the Miami Beach Bowl isn't really a bowl because it's square and red cars drive fast around it..."

    What are you blabbering about? Are you saying that Utah didn't play in a real bowl in 2005?

    It's nice that you're settling into your role as a less-accomplished version of the Indiana of the PAC 12.

    Here's betting that BYU wins its next conference championship, before Utah wins a PAC 12 championship.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 20, 2014 5:16 p.m.

    @CougarSunDevil

    Then the next model is to push out any team that isn't producing enough. Eventually, you have one 24 team conference consisting of Florida State, USC, Oregon, Texas...

    ----------------

    So 3 leagues (PAC-12, SEC, Big 10) with 8 teams each? Not going to happen, no matter how much you wish for Utah to get kicked out. Do you have ANY creditable source to back your scenario?

    It's about TV markets so the Big 10 won't be getting rid of teams like Rutgers (#1 market) or Northwestern (#3), neither is the PAC-12 with Colorado (#18) and even Utah (#33) anytime soon.

    Nor is there any precedence ever of the PAC-12, Big 10, and SEC losing or cutting a team. Could they? Sure, but the probability is closer to zero.

    If you are interested in learning about the subject then see the LA Times, it has a great article on the subject: "College football's game of conference realignment is finally ending".

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 20, 2014 6:04 p.m.

    Solomon Levi
    Alpine, UT

    Spokane Ute

    "I remember 2004 & 2008 very vividly."

    Unfortunately you weren't THE top dog; in fact you completely collapsed after 2004 and limped into 2008 with an embarrassing shut out to 10-loss UNLV.

    Not exactly the trappings of a top dog in any conference.

    -----------------

    2005-2007:
    * BYU 28-10 (73%)
    * Utah 24-14 (64%)

    2008-2011:
    * Utah 33-6 (85%) (lost to @#6 TCU, @#12 BYU, @#11 Oregon, #2 TCU, #9 Boise, @#26 ND)
    * BYU 28-11 (72%) (lost to #11 Nevada, Arizona (8-5), FSU (7-6), @USU (4-8), @AFA ...)

    Since losing to UNLV Utah is 49-8 (86%) vs non PAC-12 teams, all losses to AP top 26 teams.

  • still_thinking Draper, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 7:37 p.m.

    Why do all the Ute fans want to get rid of the mid majors? Why do the P5 conferences want to separate themselves from the mid majors (in football)? No one argues about this in Basketball. No one complains that Villanova or Gonzaga should go away because they aren't in a P5. What are the P5 teams worried about? They will continue to get the majority of TV revenue because the have the largest fan bases. They will continue to win most non-conference games because their depth of talent and funding is greater. So what is their motivation? It seems like the real motivation behind all this is to keep other Football programs from contending for a championship. Add a playoff. Problem solved. DII has one.What's stopping it from happening in DI? P5 School Presidents. Why? They don't want to share the money from the BCS bowl games. This all comes down to the BCS and money. Have a playoff. Teams that win get money. Why are the vocal Ute fans on these comment boards so desperate for the mid majors to disappear? Fear of losing to a mid major?

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 8:48 p.m.

    Uteology:
    "Nor is there any precedence ever of the PAC-12, Big 10, and SEC losing or cutting a team. Could they? Sure, but the probability is closer to zero."

    You're missing the point by focusing on what conferences want/will do. Is there precedent for teams leaving conferences for greener pastures? You bet there is. If the elite programs feel they can walk away and make the money they deserve without having to share it with the lesser, "lower wage" programs don't think for a second it won't be considered. Mark my words, equal revenue sharing will not last for this very reason. Like Spokane Ute said, it may take until 2025 or even 20+ years to 2035 (though I doubt it will take that long) but the elite programs that make more money from playing on the tier one networks will not be satisfied with watching Utah or Colorado get as much as they do. Either equal revenue will go, or the elite programs will go..."mark it down".

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 9:01 p.m.

    Uteology

    Regardless of how you slice and dice things, you'll never be able to rearrange the numbers to avoid the reality that during the Bronco/Kyle era:

    AP Top 25 finishes
    Bronco 4 > Kyle 2

    11+ Win Seasons
    Bronco 3 > Kyle 1

    Conference Championships
    Bronco 2 > Kyle 1

    Bowl Games
    Bronco 9 > Kyle 7

    Overall Record
    Bronco 82-34 > Kyle 75-39

    Record Versus PAC 12
    Bronco 9-9(50%) > Kyle 13-21(38%)

    If every overall measurement, Bronco has outperformed Kyle.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 20, 2014 10:02 p.m.

    @Cougsndawgs

    Can you cite one source that agrees with you? It is about TV revenue and college football is a regional sport.

    Here's ESPN's top TV college football markets:

    Source: "College Football’s Top 25 Highest-Rated Markets: Birmingham, Oklahoma City & Columbus Top Three in 2011" (ESPN)

    Albama: No. 1 Birmingham (5.9 rating)
    Oregon: No. 25 Portland (tied with 2.0 rating)
    Wisconsin: No. 30 Milwaukee (tied with 1.9 rating)
    Louisville: No. 32 Louisville (tied with 1.8 rating)
    USC/UCLA: No. 43 Los Angele's (1.4 rating)
    Stanford: No. 44 San Francisco (tied with 1.3 rating)

    What about the fan footprint? BYU is #43, lets see others:

    The Pacific-12 plays plenty of good football, but the low avidity of college football fans in the Western United States means that it’s in the second-tier as a television product... Washington and Oregon rank outside the top 40 in terms of their fan footprint.

    #17 USC
    #48 FSU
    #42 Washington
    #45 Oregon
    #67 Utah
    #69 Stanford

    Source:
    The Geography of College Football Fans and Realignment Chaos
    New York Times

  • Gandalph Sandy, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 10:07 p.m.

    It would be sad to see Hawaii become the first domino to fall in the unbelievable wave of greed that is sweeping major college football.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 20, 2014 10:12 p.m.

    @BlueCoug

    Apparently you think BYU's history is 1972-2000 and 2005-Today?

    MWC Top Dogs:

    1. TCU 5 (Rose)
    2. Utah 4 (Fiesta and Sugar)
    3. BYU 4 (Bowl Diddly)

    It's clear who the top dogs were, the one's that are struggling in real leagues and not the one that is still begging to get into one.

    Good luck!

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 20, 2014 10:25 p.m.

    @Cougsndawgs

    Like Spokane Ute said, it may take until 2025 or even 20+ years to 2035 (though I doubt it will take that long) but the elite programs that make more money from playing on the tier one networks will not be satisfied with watching Utah or Colorado get as much as they do. Either equal revenue will go, or the elite programs will go..."mark it down".

    ---------------

    There is a higher probability that the Big 12 will expand and invite BYU than what you just described. Wouldn't you agree?

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 20, 2014 10:40 p.m.

    FY 13 Utah was one of the schools showing minimal loss or gain. Why? Cost of capital expenditures. ie. A new softball complex ($5M), renovated soccer field, football facility $30M), tennis courts ($2M), basketball facility ($30M), Huntsman center renovation (6M) ski facility ($.75M) who knows how much more? And that was receiving 50% PAC-12 shared revenue. This FY revenue is projected to increase by $20M give or take (I'll take). All the U had to do was delay one of the projects and they would have shown a profit in the millions!. Note: I'm not certain how many $ of each project was expended in FY 13. The point remains Utah could have shown millions in profit if it wasn't upgrading their athletic facilities also the $ listed were primarily initial estimates. Actual cost could have been different.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 21, 2014 7:10 a.m.

    @Sportsfan

    I'm communicating with Solomon Levi Silly! I'll take that bet; lay down the numbers. It's kind of hard to win a conference championship; when no conference will let you join.

  • Marked it Down Park City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 8:17 a.m.

    Uteology

    Apparently you think Utah's football history consists of 2003 to 2008.

    Can you cite one significant accomplishment the Utes had prior to 2003?

    Prior to 2003, does Utah have even one season in which the Utes finished in the AP Top 25, won a conference championship, and played in a bowl?

    Bronco has had two such seasons since 2006.

    So in reality, BYU has had more success in the last 8 seasons, than Utah had in their first 100 seasons.

    Bronco has also had three 11+ win seasons since 2006, which is more 11+ win seasons than Utah has had in their entire history.

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 8:30 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    You're assuming that BYU won't join a conference AND win a conference championship before Utah wins a PAC 12 championships.

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 9:18 a.m.

    Uteology

    It's clear, even from your example, that Utah wasn't THE top dog, that if any one team was THE top dog, it was TCU.

    BYU had more AP Top 25 finishes, more 11+ win seasons, and just as many conference championships as Utah; more during the Bronco/Kyle era.

  • Keith Of Utah Roy, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 9:20 a.m.

    A team like Utah can no longer go to bowl games because they just plain aren't good enough to go. Meanwhile, BYU continues to qualify year after year because of they're commitment to the things that made them great. BYU in Provo will carry sports as long as there are no Sunday Sports which hamper that tool to get the true energy and spirit out there for people to hear and feel. BYU makes money on they're athletics, they make other teams money, and they make bowls money. This is why bowls sign deals with them. Teams that don't want to lose don't sign deals with them, or multi-game contracts. It's that simple, other LDS schools will get rid of athletics, but not the Provo school. At least not until schools are cancelling by the dozens. This year BYU will go to a bowl game and this will be Whittingham's last year as head coach at Utah. I hate to say that, but facts are facts. Utah was never ready to make the jump to the PAC-12, while BYU would do fairly well in the Big-12 if it was invited.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 10:15 a.m.

    Uteology:
    "There is a higher probability that the Big 12 will expand and invite BYU than what you just described. Wouldn't you agree?"

    Interesting question. I would answer by saying it depends on time. I don't think elite programs walking away from equal revenue sharing, or equal revenue being done away with, or at least modified is an "if" proposition, I thinks it's a "when" proposition. It may take a while but equal revenue sharing won't last. I honestly don't have any source for that, it's my opinion based on what I know about economics.

    With that being said, I don't think BYU to the Big 12 (or any other P5) is a "when" not "if" proposition. I think it's more a percentage proposition. I'd say it's about 50%, 50-50 that BYU gets an invite...and that will depend on some factors that are outside their control.

    As for CFB and regional footprint/TV revenue I agree with you. USC & UCLA have larger footprints, more ratings, and therefore will bring more revenue from advertisers than teams like Utah & Colorado. I'm not sure where our disagreement is in that regard...maybe you could clarify?

  • FACTchequer Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 10:35 a.m.

    Uteology

    You can post television market studies all you want to, but that will never change this incontrovertible fact:

    The bean counters at ESPN considered BYU sports viewership to be significant enough for ESPN to sign an 8-year contract to televise BYU sports.

    BYU's sports viewership extends far beyond the Wasatch Front, including significant viewership in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Washington D.C., and other large markets throughout the country.

    Even though it may be difficult for the average joe to break out the BYU sports viewership numbers in each of those markets, ESPN was well aware of the "product" they were buying when they signed the contract with BYU.

    There's a reason ESPN is constantly televising BYU games, even games not played at LES (which are the only games specifically included in the contract with BYU). It's because ESPN knows the viewership BYU games attract.

    Conversely, how many Utah games has ESPN chosen to broadcast specifically because Utah was playing in that game?

    ESPN has already scheduled five BYU games, with Fox Sports 1 and CBS Sports already scheduled to televise two more.

    ESPN doesn't have any Utah games scheduled.

  • tinplater scottsdale, AZ
    Aug. 21, 2014 2:37 p.m.

    BYU is like Notre Dame...a built in national following although Notre Dames' is huge by comparison. What that has to do with Hawaii dropping football is not apparent. I am quite certain neither Notre Dame or BYU will be forced to give up football on the basis of finances.

  • Sk8ter Sandy, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 4:16 p.m.

    Well now looky here. Now that ND is dropping BYU from there schedule because of there ACC ties and the SEC and ACC has shuned TTDS Hawaii is shutting down, it looks like there's an opening in the MWC for TTDs. Not so bad for a team looking in. Holmoe is sharping his pencils I know that.

  • Carson Provo, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 7:05 p.m.

    I'd rather see BYU fade away before Hawaii goes!

  • Y's little brother Sandy, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 8:24 p.m.

    Sk8ter

    Don't hold your jealous breath waiting for BYU to rejoin the MWC.

    BYU will simply continue adding more and more games with PAC 12 teams.

  • TrollPolice Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 21, 2014 9:50 p.m.

    Carson

    "I'd rather see BYU fade away before Hawaii goes!"

    Of course you would; you're just a BYU hater, like a sizable minority of "Utah fans" who would quickly lose interest in Utah if BYU faded away.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 22, 2014 12:26 a.m.

    BlueCoug
    Orem, UT

    Uteology

    It's clear, even from your example, that Utah wasn't THE top dog, that if any one team was THE top dog, it was TCU.

    BYU had more AP Top 25 finishes, more 11+ win seasons, and just as many conference championships as Utah; more during the Bronco/Kyle era.

    -----------

    Yet, Utah was ranked #10 and BYU #27 last decade by CBS Sports. So it's clear you are right behind us, biting our ankles.

    Just to be clear, Utah made history twice:

    * First by busting the BCS to lower the top 6 rule to top 12 allowing teams like Boise State, Hawaii, NIU, and UCF access to BCS bowl games.

    * Then went on to be ranked the highest ranked mid-major under BCS rules with 16 AP first place votes by beating 4 ranked teams. Just for giggles, BYU has not beat 4 ranked teams in 18 years combined.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 22, 2014 12:30 a.m.

    FACTchequer
    Salt Lake City, UT

    Uteology

    You can post television market studies all you want to, but that will never change this incontrovertible fact:

    The bean counters at ESPN considered BYU sports viewership to be significant enough for ESPN to sign an 8-year contract to televise BYU sports.

    -------

    They did the same to Boise State. Congrats to both programs!

    @Cougsndawgs

    Cougar Nation hoping for the demise of the P5 leagues, while their coach is begging for a P5 invite. Priceless!

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 22, 2014 8:18 a.m.

    Uteology:
    I'm not hoping for anyone's demise. I'm an SEC fan and have always enjoyed watching PAC10/12 football. I'm trying to have a realistic discussion about the fact that equal revenue sharing won't work forever. It will either be modified and done away with, or the elite programs will "take their ball and go home". We already saw what this hubris looks like when Slive threatened to walk away from the NCAA if the power leagues didn't get what they want. If you think this is the last separation that will be sought by CFB elitists I have some beachfront property in Topeka Kansas I'd like to sell you.

    Unlike many ute fans who desperately want BYU to crumble and fall, I wish nothing of the sort for Utah. I think most honest fans of the rivalry do not want to see the demise of the other program because it diminishes a passionate rivalry that only makes CFB in Utah more exciting.

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Aug. 22, 2014 9:37 a.m.

    Utah made history twice:

    In 2004: by beat three regular season opponents with winning records, none better than 7-5

    In 2008: by getting extremely luck in playing all of their toughest regular season games at home and catching an Alabama team that never took the Utes seriously

    Unfortunately for U, even with your "history-making" exploits (something that will be quickly forgotten during the playoff era), you never impressed the voters enough to finish any closer than 4th in the race for the Crystal Football National Championship Trophy.

    Since 2006, BYU has three Top 15, 11+ win seasons.
    Since 1894, Utah has two Top 15, 11+ win seasons.

    Even during the Bronco/Kyle era, you can't keep up with BYU.

    AP Top 25 Finishes
    Bronco 4 > Kyle 2

    Bronco has almost as many AP Top 25 finishes since 2006 (4), as Utah has in their entire history (5).

    Think about that for awhile.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    Aug. 22, 2014 10:37 a.m.

    RE: Uteology

    "Yet, Utah was ranked #10 and BYU #27 last decade by CBS Sports. So it's clear you are right behind us, biting our ankles."

    You've cited that CBS sports ranking several times so I tried to google it but couldn't find it. Can you help me out with a title or something?

    Incidentally, while search for all-time rankings I did come across the "all-decade walk-on team" which had two BYU players (Pitta and Ziggy), and in 2009 ESPN did an all-time prestige ranking that puts BYU #25 and Utah #43 (both teams were higher than I expected). In 2011 BleacherReport did a top 50 programs of all-time which listed Utah at #45 and BYU #25.

    I don't doubt that Utah easily outranked BYU during the last decade (2004 and 2008 were amazing seasons), I simply want to read the article. Cheers.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    Aug. 22, 2014 10:46 a.m.

    Uteology, I did just find a 2000s ranking by college football news that lists Utah at 21 and BYU at 26. They also list the best teams so far in the 2010s and neither BYU nor Utah made the top 50 teams. USU was there ranked at #30, which goes to show how much a few good years can do for you. Just FYI the rest of the decades went as follows

    2010s: BYU NR, Utah NR
    2000s: BYU 26, Utah 21
    1990s: BYU 26, Utah 50
    1980s: BYU 15, Utah NR (top 50)
    1970s: BYU 38, Utah NR
    1960s, 50s, 40s: BYU NR, Utah NR
    All-time: BYU 46, Utah 70

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Aug. 22, 2014 12:49 p.m.

    @uteology

    "made history" huh? That implies it was somehow important and that it means something to college football at large. Nope. Maybe, jsut maybe, the 2004 year meant something since it was the first time a non bcs team made a bcs bowl but by the time 2008 rolled around several had done it and it really was no big deal. Plus no one really cares, or even really remembers, outside of utah "fans". No one remebers who played who in the orange bowl that year either. It just doesn't matter and certainly isn't "history making".

    LOL at the delusion though.

  • Sk8ter Sandy, UT
    Aug. 22, 2014 4:32 p.m.

    @ "U"'s litle brother

    I quit being jelous oh......at about the 11th grade. No need for it. I did hold my breath and guess what. Holmoe has nothing on the table to offer P5 conferences still. After this season byu is in trouble. Jack!

  • Snack PAC Olympus Cove, Utah
    Aug. 23, 2014 5:25 p.m.

    Sk8ter

    "After this season BYU is in trouble."

    Says who; another jealous, BYU hater?

  • Bob K Davis, CA
    Aug. 27, 2014 2:01 a.m.

    Discontinuing football for U of H:
    -- Remembering that most of the local population are of Japanese ancestry, so finding big bruisers is tough, why not go with soccer?

    Discontinuing the entire athletic program at BYU Hawaii:
    -- Punishes the students in an attempt use the funds to lure in more converts. Looks very poor.

  • dden45 Provo, Utah
    Aug. 30, 2014 5:10 p.m.

    It's nice to see that the two-year break from the BYU/Utah game hasn't tempered BYU/Utah fans ability argue over the Internet. Neither team is going anywhere, and neither team is going to make leaps and strides above the other due to many of the reasons people have mentioned. So let's just bring back the game and enjoy football.

  • Kaladin Northern, CO
    Sept. 9, 2014 9:11 a.m.

    @BobK - what in the world are you talking about? Cutting BYU-I and BYU-H athletics program is somehow akin to sacrificing animals to expand membership? I really am at a loss here. Please explain your work.
    @ Everyone else - Your team is inferior in every way imaginable. Our team is the best.

  • sherlock holmes Eastern, UT
    Sept. 10, 2014 3:41 p.m.

    Surely, surely, Dr Watson, a university would not put academic needs above athletics, would it?

  • shorts Payson, UT
    Oct. 6, 2014 6:59 a.m.

    It is to bad if they loose football it was a fun trip for most teams.

  • never break .500 Los Angeles, CA
    Oct. 14, 2014 2:05 a.m.

    clearly the U will always operate in the red…i hope they hire a new coach and pay him $4mm to lose recruits to BYU and Pac12 teams.

  • ClarkHippo Tooele, UT
    Oct. 16, 2014 2:49 p.m.

    I predict within ten years, two-thirds of the universities which have a college football team will be dropping those teams.

    At the same time, I predict within ten years, half of the universities which have an athletic departments will drop said athletic department.

    And you can thank the Power 5 conferences, along with the corrupt NCAA for it.

  • Wayne Rout El Paso, TX
    Oct. 17, 2014 12:39 p.m.

    Norm wanted to be a head coach. Now he am one. Now who can he blame?