college football is changing and BYU won't be able to justify playing much
longer. That is a fact. There is strong talk of sunday play with the new playoff
system and that will only increase as the playoffs expand. The fact that the Y
can't get into a conference is also a big deal since survival is really
dependent on getting into a conference. BYU is not Notre Dame and can't
continue much longer as an independent. The program will decline quickly so I
suspect the general authorities have to weigh in the fact that what good is a
football program that can't compete nationally anymore.Does it serve the
Church or the school to have a mediocre program? My guess is the answer will
eventually be no. It was fun while it lasted - especially from 1977
"Why is it OK for states across the nation to consider paying more to their
university football team’s players, but once the discussion shifts to a
church-owned school, top-level football has to go because of the moral
implications of it all?"As a Mormon Ute fan, I agree 100%. If
its wrong for a church to subsidize athletics and use the tithes of their
members to do so, its also wrong for a state to do so using while having the
burden on the taxpayers. I'd say its even MORE wrong for a
state school to do so, as tithes are voluntary, taxes are not. And
YES, taxpayers are subsidizing the athletics programs at the U. Anyone who
thinks otherwise has their head in the clouds. The university has to subsidize
our athletics department because revenues from athletics are less than their
expenses. At the end of the day - I'm ok the state and
university do this, but its no less wrong for a church school to do so either.
It's time for state's to stop the subsidizing of athletic programs
now. We need that money going to student scholarships to help with the cost of
getting an education. I thought that is what a University is for. I agree with
the writer on everything but one statement. If the church leaders want to use
my tithing money for BYU sports, I would support that. It is a good missionary/
PR tool for the church. I freely pay tithing and the church has shown that they
are responsible with the use of those "sacred" dollars. The government
has never shown that it is responsible with my taxes. I do not freely pay that,
but I am forced to do it. I already pay way too much and do not want to
continue to subsidize olympic sports.
Patriot, If you actually really believe the comment you just made , you
surely have your head buried in the sand.I can assure you BYU football is going
nowhere but onward and upward moving forward. In fact you will hear news
regarding this in the near future that Y haters like you are not going to like.
What is the difference between spending money on the missionary program and
spending money on BYU athletics. Isn't the end objective the same?
Is anybody else un-okay with a call to do something, like discontinue BYU's
football program, based on unprovable hypotheses about what may or may not
happen in the future?
Reply to Patriot:I think your imminent or eventual decline of the BYU
football program would elate Ute fans everywhere, but it is not happening. The
BYU Football program is here to stay and will not be derailed by changes in the
system.Sunday play is the LAST thing that will be a concern. BYU is not
the only school with morals left and the system will accommodate this. As far
as not competing nationally--BYU has tens of thousands of recruiters going two
by two worldwide that will ensure the pipeline of great players to the BYU
sports programs will continue.GO COUGARS!
The only people predicting the imminent demise of the BYU athletics program are
the haters who have personal fantasies about that happening. NOBODY else is
talking like this in any way likely to occur. On the contrary, BYU is investing
more and more in the exposure of its athletics programs as time goes on. Will
they be able to keep up with the P5 conferences? Perhaps not, but this does not
mean they are going to throw it all away and demolish LES or the MC, as much as
the haters would love to see that happen. BYU fans will be singing "Rise and
Shout, the Cougars are out on the trail to fame and glory!" for many years
patriot"Does it serve the Church or the school to have a
mediocre program?"Using this same logic, does it serve the state
of Utah to have a mediocre program, because that's what UofWho is.
Inconsistent at best and lucky for two years at worst. When decisions are
actually made, then teams can react, but until then, to ring the death knell for
a program is not only desperate, but ridiculous.
There is NO CHANCE that BYU drops sports - it's almost silly to suggest
that.Now I imagine our Ute friends will all harp on closing down the
sports program - but that's because they hate BYU and not because they are
being sincere. Honestly, the idea is without merit.As a booster of
BYU, I know for a fact that as far as missionary tools the church has, the top
three are as follows:1. General Conference2. Mormon Tabernacle
Choir3. BYU Sports (mainly football)Again, there is NO CHANCE
that they discontinue sports at BYU. IF anything, I think they'll promote
it even more.Rest assured my Ute friends, BYU will be here long
The Alamo is still standing and I don't think College Football is going
Yes there are certainly BYU haters who gorge their fantasies with thoughts of
BYU sports dying, but I think the real reason many Ute fans would love to see
BYU drop sports is because they consider it would help in the recruiting battle,
with all those state-of-Utah and LDS athletes who now choose BYU. The U
certainly needs something to compete in the recruiting battle with all the other
PAC schools.And I state again for the umpteenth time that this plan
to take collegiate sports even more into the quasi-professional realm is a
terrible idea. On this path, in 10 years the NCAA will have killed college
sports for everyone.
Gregory Welch "Why is it OK for states across the nation to consider paying
more to their university football team’s players?"States
are not considering paying JUST their football players. They are considering
paying ALL their athletes, including men's and women's basketball,
women's gymnastics, women's softball, men's baseball, etc."If fans of BYU want to pay for their football team, what’s
wrong with that?"Nothing -- as long as fans ALSO pay for basketball,
gymnastics, softball... and BYU can only do that if their conference (WCC)
chooses that path.
College football moving to Sunday play? What proof is there that will happen? It
sounds ridiculous to me in a business stand point. College football will be
competing with the NFL when it comes to attracting eyeballs on TV and we know
who will win that battle. College football will lose money moving to Sundays.
Saturdays will give them the most profit. Suggesting Sunday play is point
without merit. BYU has nothing to worry about in this area.
This was actually a level-headed and thought out column about what could
possibly happen at BYU. No blatant homerism or doomsday prophecies. Nice
change. I'm part of the crowd who doesn't care that athletes can get
paid. I don't think this will ruin the sport any more than the BCS and
NCAA had in the last 5-10 years. And hopefully this would eliminate situations
like the U getting in trouble because Coach Majerus took a kid to dinner after
his dad died.
"....The last thing the LDS Church needs to be operating is a
quasi-professional football team....”- Brad Roick______________________________Kind of late for a sports writer to
come to that realization. NCAA football has long been essentially semi-pro and
virtually everyone knows it, including the LDS Church.
SoonerUte - BYU, however, unlike the state schools, could choose to just pay
their football players. You are incorrect that they would have to pay for
gymnastics and softball as well.
BYU's football does and will continue to enjoy a financial surplus.
I'd be more worried if I was amongst the greater than 75% of football
programs that currently run a deficit and will have to indirectly beg taxpayers
for more money.
Is BYU football really a good missionary tool? Being LDS myself I'd argue
that it does as much harm as it does good. So though another poster on this
thread mentioned that he/she would have no problem with tithing dollars going to
BYU football, myself and others might strongly disagree.
@Herbert Gravy"What is the difference between spending money on
the missionary program and spending money on BYU athletics. Isn't the end
objective the same?"The difference is, one is effective and one
isn't. The missionary program brings 250k people into the church every
year. BYU athletics doesn't. Aside from the occasional non-LDS athlete
who joins the church while at BYU, you can't name a single person who
joined the church because of BYU sports. But there are lots of people - I can
name several I've met - who say they will never join the church because of
the actions of BYU players and fans during sports contests. Like it or not,
sports bring out the worst in people (look at these message boards, for
example)....not the image you want to project if you're trying to be
successful in missionary work.
I talked about this issue 3 plus years ago and was laughed to scorn by many of
the ute posters. I said then that most of the public schools and even some of
the private universities that belong to the PAC 12 and other P5 conferences
would be squeezed to death by bonded debt in the frenzied rush to mortgage
themselves with the expectations of future revenue from large television deals.
Most of the public universities in the PAC 12 have bonded
themselves and the tax payers except for Utah, Colorado and maybe Oregon for up
to 30 years and up to 75-100 million dollars. I believe a significant, if not
all of the new football facility at Utah was a gift from the Eccles family.
However, with the talk of a new stadium, the situation will change from
endowments to debt in a big hurry. Bronco Mendenhall was exactly
right when he suggested that only those schools that run their programs from a
debt free and profitable position should break away from the current NCAA
outline. I believe he said that only 15-16 programs for sure meet that criteria
but may be as many as 25.
I don't really know how much BYU football does for missionary work, but I
think perhaps motorbike might be correct. BYU football might make people aware
of the church but I hope no one is baptized just because BYU has a winning
season. (Baptism is good, but only for the right reasons!) I remember 1 or 2
years ago an article, I believe right here in the DN about a fight between BYU
players during a pre-season scrimmage, and the assistant coaches were ecstatic
because the fight showed that the players had spirit and passion. If BYU coaches
think that fighting represents the gospel of Christ, I think they are misled.
Personally, I think universities ought to be emphasizing academics more than
sports and budgets ought to reflect that.
With the precarious situation we have in the US with our mounting debt and
instability of the dollar around the world, things can change overnight and all
the big dreams of being in a big 5 conference might be a moot point. I know of no better situation to be in than independence for BYU football or
all BYU athletics for that matter. No other university in the world has more
wide footprint and reach as BYU.Independence is the way the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints has operated from the beginning and in the
probable event that financial and social chaos erupts, BYU will be in a very
enviable position. That's why we sustain the first presidency
and Quorum of the twelve as prophets and seers.
Christopher B"SoonerUte - BYU, however, unlike the state schools,
could choose to just pay their football players. You are incorrect that they
would have to pay for gymnastics and softball as well."Since BYU
has a Title IX Coordinator, I presume Title IX applies to BYU.NY
Times Mar 22, 2014:Under Title IX, the total amount of financial aid
available to male and female athletes must be “substantially
proportionate” to their overall participation rates. Paychecks would
presumably be held to the same standard. If, for instance, a court ordered a
university to give a share of its television revenue to male players, an
equitable percentage would have to flow to female athletes.
@G-Day-M8"Independence is the way the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-Day-Saints has operated from the beginning and in the probable event that
financial and social chaos erupts, BYU will be in a very enviable
position."That is vry comforting that BYU can be national champs
again knowing everybody else will forfiet when armeggedon arrives.
Motorbike,Whether the reason for having byu athletics and
specifically football have to do with missionary work partly, fully, or none at
all, this much is certain: president Thomas Monson supports BYU having a
football team. If he didnt, the program would end today. Same holds true of past
prophets as they also were the chairman of the board of BYU. Any LDS
person who thinks they know better than the prophet as to what's best had
better think again. I know you specifically didn't mention you think byu
sports should end, by many lds ute fan have on these boards. As for
me, I'll support whatever our prophet does. And since he hasn't ended
the byu football program, which he is more than capable of doing, I'll
support how our church leaders decide to run BYU and BYU sports. An
I suggest all Mormons do the same.
It's called "Microeconomics" - the study of the allocation of
limited resources versus competing priorities for those limited resources. And
it's Serious Business.Given the projected $20M - $30M annual
payday (or greater, depending on bowl shares, et al) for P5 teams that has been
factually reported in multiple media outlets, there is clearly a fundamental
ginormous economic advantage that will provide P5 teams with resources that will
ultimately result in a shift in the very tectonic plates of collegiate sport.Why? Multiply that annual advantage over the next five, ten, or fifteen
years. What does that equate to --- $150M, $300M, $450M? More?The
debate is over. The New P5 World is now reality. We only await the
results of the financial exsanguination for those who either cannot or choose
not to keep up the pace.... A challenge worthy of Brother Sisyphus.--- Good luck out there. This will be a tough one.
@ RG"I don't really know how much BYU football does for
missionary work"There are others like who wonder what BYU
football does for missionary work. I can tell you that it's not what they
do on the field it's off the field. It's the firesides which attract
and pack chapels wherever BYU football goes. Yes, I do realize that the majority
who attend are members but many non-members are invited and show up to.
It's cases like the Spencer Hadley experience when BYU went to the Draper
prison last year and a great spiritual experience happened there. There are
other examples that would make this comment too long but you get my drift. The
church leadership really likes the way the BYU football team goes out and serve,
not so much there on the field play. Tom Holmoe and Cecil Samuelson were
brilliant to use BYU athletics in this way. I can tell you the church leadership
certainly smiles when they know that the BYU football team are doing these
things. I don't foresee it stopping any time soon.
I cannot understand all of these comments asking whether BYU can afford to
continue with college athletics. I think the better question is can they afford
not to? The athletic program makes money!BYU is one of around 25
athletic programs out there that are self sustaining. Self sustaining, meaning
not a nickel of tax, tithing, or tuition pays for it. The revenue of ticket
sales, tv contracts, etc outweighs the expense of the athletic program. A large majority of athletic programs out there are losing money. This
includes Utah and Utah State. When the time comes to start paying players, if
that is what it comes down to, Utah and Utah State and most others out there are
going to be forced to go deeper into the red to fund their programs. Where are
these additional funds going to come from? Taxes? Tuition increase? Cuts to
other university expenses?When autonomy brings new cost to college
sports, don't worry about BYU and the other 25 or so programs that make
money. Worry about the Utes, and the Aggies that are losing money.
@Brave Robin.My wife joined the church in the 1980's because of
BYU sports. Some of her family also joined. We have 5 kids that are all
members of the church (and a grandchild). So in essence because she joined the
church 10 people are now members. Three of my children have served missions (I
expect that all 5 will probably go). I know that they have had several convert
baptisms and have planted many seeds in 3 foreign countries, so the total is now
upwards of 20 people that have joined because of BYU sports. Not to count all
the seeds that have been planted. How many will be members within another
generation from one person's decision to join the LDS faith? 100? 200?
Please don't tell me that BYU sports are not a missionary tool, this one
small example proves otherwise.
@ Lifelong Ute.......Very interesting comment. Are you somehow
suggesting that in order to be a good member of the church one needs to support
BYU Athletics? I hope you weren't serious.
I say BYU should have the highest paid coach in the nation. If utah pays their
athletes 5,000 then BYU should pay theirs 7,000. Then as Cougar fans we can
thank the ALUF's for their support of BYU Sports.
Do you really have to ask why the "moral implications" should be
considered when it is a church school? The church proclaims that tithing is the
Lord's money and that people all around the world are commanded to pay
tithing. I think it is fair to consider the moral implications of why the
tithing money of a struggling Filipino family should be used to pay football
players so that BYU fans can feel like their program is keeping up with the
Miamis and USCs of the world.What really irked me about this article
was the statement that it is ok for "BYU fans" to pay for a football
program. What makes you think BYU fans are the only people that pay tithing?
I disagree with the idea that BYU football is overall a good missionary tool.
I'm sure it has generated some good missionary outcomes, but no evidence
suggests that it does more good than harm. Maybe 1 or 2 million BYU fans
(almost entirely already LDS) watch most BYU football games. It isn't
clear to me what missionary benefit comes from that. By comparison,
10 million people viewed youtube video of BYU fans dumping garbage on officials
after a BYU loss. Hundreds of thousands of non-members in Oklahoma watched on
TV as BYU fans in the Delta Center relentlessly taunted and booed a young
returned missionary who happened to play for the opposing team. A business
contact from Texas told me how disgusted he was by his treatment at the hands of
BYU fans in Provo last fall. How many non-LDS SDSU fans do you
think called the local missionaries to ask for a Book of Mormon after the bowl
game between BYU and SDSU a few years ago?
@Lifelong Ute"At the end of the day - I'm ok the state and
university do this, but its no less wrong for a church school to do so
either."I agree that it's wrong for taxes/tithing to
support athletics. The difference is, utah's athletics are supported by
taxes, while absolutely no tithing money supports BYU's athletics. To be
honest, I think taxes need to stop going to sports. With the nation
going in debt as much as it is, our country needs to change our mindset and live
within our means. Athletic programs should sustain themselves with their own
revenue and booster donations, but all donations should be voluntary. This is
how BYU operates.I can't wait for the day that all these
schools plunging themselves into debt finally collapse and have their programs
fall apart. Then BYU will rise above them.History has shown (and
this isn't just in sports) that those who don't live within their
means and don't play within the rules will ultimately fail. Doing things
the right way eventually pays off.
Now this is opens up a can of flawed worms. Although athletics and the use of
tax payer dollars have long been an issue of intense conversation around the
country. College ball is now chasing the pro game to a level where it is
striving get on the same financial race track albeit with a handicap so to
speak. To some extent the gap is decreasing. However the funds are definitely
rising. How does all of this affect BYU? It's hard to say. This
article, to say the least throws out new considerations, which is more
tolerable, if not more confusing than the usual 'Power 5' autonomy
jargon. How will BYU play the money distribution game? Will they
even choose to do so? Moral questions can't be side stepped and everybody
won't be satisfied regardless what is decided on. Shutting down the
football program would be a shame, but that seems a somewhat of a stretch to me.
How competitive will BYU and the church choose to be?
Tax payer dollar considerations force people to pay for many things they often
don't support. Expanded stadiums and Olympic projects have been issues
before in the sports world. When we shift to BYU and a football tithing fund
concept (whatever that even is or might be), we won't have everybody on the
same page either. The church is concerned with this. Money put
towards the mission of the church is always an ongoing issue, but members have
proven to be supportive historically relative to their contributions. That said,
despite the popularity of BYU football, a large chunk of church membership
doesn't consider a dominant BYU football team a core church issue. As a
whole, the majority of church members have no interest in paying for BYU
football. This is especially true outside the country and around the world. Now,
don't think I am saying that is what they will have to eventually do. I am
saying that creative ways to support the football program is already being
considered/discussed. How much is football deemed to be a missionary tool? And
how competitive does the church want to be here if its' existence continues
is not clear.
Lifelong Ute"Any LDS person who thinks they know better than the
prophet as to what's best had better think again. I know you specifically
didn't mention you think byu sports should end, (but) many lds ute fan have
on these boards. "You're right, I certainly didn't say
anything about bringing an end to BYU sports, that would actually be a huge
bummer. That said, I certainly stand behind the comment that no tithing should
ever go toward BYU athletics and I also have serious doubts that BYU football is
that great of a missionary tool.I also suggest keeping in mind that
prophets are still human. We've seen several recent announcements admitting
that mistakes have been made by past Presidents of the LDS church. I'm not
saying BYU football is a mistake but questioning our church leaders on subjects
we disagree with is not an evil practice, despite what so many church members
seem to think.
@Lifelong UteYes tithing is voluntary, but I don't think
'football money' should be included here. Tithing involves faith and
generosity, but to have it be an all encompassing and endless support fund for
every branch of activity that is connected with the church, especially if
it's not directly connected relative to core issues of faith will be to
controversial in my opinion. BYU is a church school but I don't need to
support it and have a testimony of it to be worhty to go to the temple and be
exalted on high. I know some BYU fans think Bronco leads 'God's
Army' on the gridiron, but it's only football. And those Americans
around the country (think SEC) that think football is a religion, or those that
think Sunday is a day for the 'First Church of the NFL' shouldn't
proselytized to with football as their salvation via BYU and the church. That
would be an oxymoron concept.
@utemiguel and motorbike... Whether y'all like it or not, the
existence of BYU's Sports Programs (especially Football) has been called a
strong Missionary tool for the church... It's understandable that die hard
ute fans and deep red BYU haters like yourselves don't think that it is a
Missionary Tool...As I understand it, BYU's move to Independence was
predicated on more exposure Nation Wide in order to drive up Brand
Recognition... Thus the fancy TV studios, the Espn Partnership that requires mid
week night games... etc.You would have problems with tithing money
going to help these programs? I can understand that, because I have a huge
problem with my tax dollars going to prop up an underperforming ute football
program... (it would be okay with me if that tax wasting program went away) But
I have no choice, do I? I just want to make sure we publicize the names of the
Legislators who make that decision for us.@patriot...Sunday play will never be a reason to exempt BYU from the playoffs... That
would be a huge Religious Discrimination problem... That's probably why you
don't see it in March Madness...
UteMiguel:I'll answer your question. Probably all of the
non-LDS who attended the fireside the night before the game. But even if it was
only one person, the Lord would rejoice that one more of his chosen had come
Mr. Welch, it is not "Your Tithing" by the very definition of tithing it
cannot be "Your Tithing."
UteMiguelGo Utes, CA"By comparison, 10 million people
viewed youtube video of BYU fans dumping garbage on officials after a BYU loss.
"Or one Utah fan watched it 10 million times.I
happen to agree that BYU fans' behavior is sometimes less than exemplary,
made all the more embarrassing because we SHOULD do better. I have never had
anyone ask me to be baptized because of the BYU license plate ring on my car or
the BYU hat in my window. Neither have I, ever, had anyone complain to me about
BYU or the church because of an athlete's or or a fan's behavior.
Never.I have had many discussions about BYU athletics in general,
and athletes in particular, which have created opportunities for me to talk
about my church life with people. As such, for me at least, BYU football has
been a better missionary tool than Facebook or the LDS media.Although several of my coworkers are regular recipients of links and short
messages regarding some of the cool media releases too.
"So though another poster on this thread mentioned that he/she would have no
problem with tithing dollars going to BYU football, myself and others might
strongly disagree."Good thing it doesn't matter one whit
how strongly motorbike, I, or anybody else agree or disagree with tithing
dollars going to BYU football. The only say you (we) have is whether or not to
pay tithing.As opposed to having no choice on paying taxes to
subsidize the red tape athletic programs up on the hill.
If the church can build shopping centers and condos in downtown SLC, I think
it's okay for BYU to run a self-sustaining athletic department.
@Brave Sir Robin"The difference is, one is effective and one
isn't. The missionary program brings 250k people into the church every
year. BYU athletics doesn't."I assume you personally know
every single one of those 250k people? And that every single one said that BYU
athletics didn't play a part?That's what I thought.I personally know about 10 people who first got interested in the church
because of BYU football and were later converted. They watched the football
games, saw the BYU commercials, and became interested in what BYU stood for.Of course, after that they needed to contact the missionaries and go
much further than just watching football games. But football got them
interested.And I'm sure the 10 people I know aren't the
only people on the planet who have this experience every year. I bet there are
hundreds if not more.BYU Football alone doesn't bring people
into the church. But it certainly gets them interested and is very effective
when it works alongside missionaries, general conference, etc.
TitleIX solved: (simple economics)Paychecks to students are simply a
portion of the revenue the sport brings in. Teams that are operating in the red
will have the cost made up by the athletes themselves.
to cougarsrockWho has their head in the sand? Hint: Its not
patriot.It'd be really ironic were byu to give up football and
became a major research institution thus "qualifying" for the P12
So we have many of the usual utah "fans" hoping for the demise of BYU
athletics, opining about "their" tithing dollars, etc.Here
is what I find pathetic about most of them. They hate BYU. It really is that
simple. They made a decision in life to like a different schools athletics and
because that school competes with, and loses more times than not in most sports
to BYU, they hate it. But still, despite that hate, they feel a sense of
entitlement to call for the ending of the athletic program at BYU. They are
conflicted between their hate for BYU, one of the most visible and important
institutions in the church they belong to, and their membership in the church.
So in a desperate attempt to end the angst they feel over hating one of the
churches most important programs run by one of the most institutions the church
owns they call for its demise. They selfishly believe this would ease their
tortured spirits because they would no longer have to hate this great
institution. Get over it on you own, the problem is yours not
SoonerUteSalt Lake City, UT"States are not considering
paying JUST their football players. They are considering paying ALL their
athletes, including men's and women's basketball, women's
gymnastics, women's softball, men's baseball, etc."Sooner, your entire post misses the point. "It's the
subsidies..." of state university athletics (only 25 programs are in the
black!) that we as taxpayers really HATE. Doesn't matter if were just
football or ALL sports. The immoral disconnect remains.
Brave Sir RobinSan Diego, CA"...Like it or not, sports
bring out the worst in people (look at these message boards, for example)....not
the image you want to project if you're trying to be successful in
missionary work." Or represent your state and its populace with honor and
dignity---I would add.Yet, as a fellow Californian, on these boards
I get to witness from a distance some of the worst bigotry and anti-religion
sentiments from secular folks who seem all to eager to share their worst and
motorbike,You're certainly entitled to your opinion that
tithing shouldn't go to sports - but similar arguments could be made about
taxes and forcing taxpayers to subsidize Utah athletics, which we currently do.
Its also a slippery slope to say that because church leaders in the
past have made mistakes and because they are human we're perfectly fine
disagreeing with them - if that's the case I could call myself a devout
Mormon and convince myself I'm in great standing with the church and God
even though I disagree with 100% of what the prophet does - after all, maybe
he's wrong about it all. All I'm saying is for me -
I'm going to support President Monson.If President Monson
thinks BYU should have a football program - I support that. If he ever closes
the football program - I likewise will support that. I'd rather support
him 100% rather than pick and choose when I support the prophet and use the weak
and dangerous argument that "they are human so its ok if I don't
support them because maybe they are wrong" I'm ashamed of Mormons who
use that embarrassingly bad excuse.
PendergastSalt Lake City, UT"It'd be really ironic
were byu to give up football and became a major research institution thus
"qualifying" for the P12[.]"Please, Pendergast, give
that point of argument a rest. I earned two graduate degrees from
UCLA, one of your "major research institutions." I am NOT IMPRESSED with
major research institutions which unfortunately now includes the U of U.
@well informed.My comments are very simple. I think in order to be
in good standing with the church and good LDS member one should support the
Prophet and his decisions. If you were not aware, he is the Chairman of the
Board of BYU and with one phone call could end the BYU football program. He,
like all past prophets in my lifetime, have kept the BYU football program. There are some people who claim to be active LDS people on these boards
saying the church should end byu sports, football in particular. I'm
saying that I support President Monson because I believe him to be a prophet.
If he feels BYU should have a football program - I support him. I
know you tried putting words in my mouth and spinning my comments but there was
nothing ambiguous about my comments. President Monson supports BYU having
athletics program - if he didn't, he would have ended them. President
Hinckley supported having them - if he didn't he would have ended them. And
I support what my prophet decides. Sorry(actually no I'm not) if that
Lifelong UteI appreciate your level-headed analysis. I just gained
respect for a Ute fan. I know it is unjust to lump all of the fans of any
institution together (I certainly have been appalled at times by the comments of
alleged BYU fans), but I have been deeply troubled by the vitriol leveled not
just at BYU, but at the Church, by "fans" of the U of Utah. I get that
many faithful members of the Church do not root for BYU sports. Utah fans are
not alone, but perhaps the most affected as BYU is their rival. Most of my
family would and have rooted for Texas A&M when they match up with BYU in
athletics. Interestingly, at least one of my brothers and my Dad have made
contributions to the general fund at BYU and to BYU athletics. It may be
difficult to separate our passions about a particular team from a rival team
that happens to be representing the flagship university of our religion, but I
have seen it done.
Ah, little brother, we hardly knew thee.
Due to the greed of a few conferences the whole landscape of college sports will
change and as a result title IX will probably go away. The greed of the
so-called p5 schools is very saddening.On the bright side I can see
hundreds of law suits against the NCAA and the P5 schools as they create their
own laws and rules. This is just like the Obama administration wanting to do
their own thing regardless of what is good for the whole. The utes
will also be gobbled up by the big players in the conference and they will be
spit out in a few years. Write it down.
@Pendergastpatriot does have his head in the sand, he is trying to
make claims about something he has no personal knowledge about and his claims
are in direct contrast to the statements made publicly, and reported in print
and on tv, by the BYU officials that are in charge of the athletic program.
LtrainAgreed, that means our taxes should not support athletics at
the state universities. Football has become completely commercialized and in the
market place a nonessential commodity (college athletics) must not receive tax
@motortrike and other bitter utah "fans"You guys realize
that the LDS church has money, billions and billions of dollars actually, that
do not come from tithes don't you? That is right, the church has a massive
business arm that earns billions of dollars that have nothing to do with
tithing, fast offerings, or any other voluntary contribution from its
members.If the church leaders desired to use some of that money for
BYU athletics then why shouldn't they? I'm not saying they do because
we all know BYU athletics is self supporting, but if they did then so what? If
they feel that the athletic program at BYU is valuable enough to use other
resources to promote and grow it then it really is no business at all of
yours.But then of course that is a moot point, as is your whining
about tithing and such. The facts are these, BYU athletics not only support
themselves they turn a profit. You, as an avowed hater make yourself and your
opinions on the subject of no value. Your bias and hate eliminate your opinions
from consideration on these matters because they are all based on hate.
The BYU football team is not a "church" team. It is a college team. I
am a life-long Mormon, love the Church, pay tithing, serve (a lot) in the
Church, married in the temple, etc. I have no desire to affiliate with the BYU
football team. While there may be some Mormons in Utah who like it and will
always preach about its supposed virtues, know that most members of the church
in the world are uninterested in BYU and its sports teams. I am not saying the
school should not have a team. But it is not a "church" team. Most
members of the church in the world never attend BYU and have no interest in BYU
sports. So have a team, but it is not a "Church" team as the name of
the article suggests.
pendergast,Do you have something of fact to post ?????????
to Old But Not StupidThen, why did you get the 2nd advanced degree
if the 1st go around was less then wonderful?I will continue to use
the *observation* about 'research institutions' until its ceases being
funny. Trust me, it hasn't yet.to Duckhunter earlier this
afternoon...You do realize how ironic it would be for 50 E N Temple to endorse a
secular game? Kinda like the early Christians placing ads in the Roman
Colosseum? This institution you call a church sounds more like a
business. DYK; Checks for voluntary contributions are endorsed by the
'Corporation of the President'?
to cougarsrockI'll start when you do. Deal?
kfbobThanks for your story. I imagine that if there were not
hundreds of stories, or more, like yours, the church would not care as much
about having sporting programs at the Y. I went to the U during the Steve Young
era. Although he went to my rival, I have nothing but respect for the player
and the man. The inroads someone like Young can make for the church is
incalculable. Of course, Young did not have to go to BYU to be able to be such
on influence for the church, but it did help in his case.
Go Utes, you're right, its not a church team. Its just a college team that
church leaders have chosen to field, as others have pointed out.
Duckhunter,Don't pretend that you know everything about how
many dollars are brought into the LDS church nor where those dollars all come
from. The church doesn't open their books to the public so very few of us
have a clue, we're only left to speculate... which is EXACTLY what
The thing about taxes subsidizing football programs in this: The State of Utah
makes money off Utah football by way of tourism. The U published a report a
year or two back that polled fans of visiting PAC-12 teams and they
overwhelmingly had a positive experience here and planned to take a return trip.
This is good for the state, and for the LDS church since many tourists take
time to check out the Temple while they're here. The state makes some
money, the church gets exposure.Win-win.
@Go UtesSalt Lake City, UT"Most members of the church in
the world never attend BYU and have no interest in BYU sports. So have a team,
but it is not a "Church" team as the name of the article
suggests."Umm, technically you maybe right...it's not the
Mormon Church's team per se, much like Notre Dame is "quote,
unquote" not the Catholic Church's team. But, you know and I know that
both the Mormon and Catholic churches fully own and support the institutions
that sponsor those teams. Thus, they are in reality their teams. Btw, I also disagree that the majority of the worldwide membership of the
Church do not support BYU or it's athletic programs. Most, if not all
supports the Prophet who has the final say on everything BYU and thus most all
support BYU. You and others like you have chosen to be a vocal opposition to
everything BYU as far as I'm concern. But that's just my opinion
which I also know doesn't mean a hill o beans to any of you. Good day!
It's back to the old "Holy War", isn't it. That's a
shame. Takes the fun out of the rivalry.
Okay, let us put tithing aside relative to BYU football. I look back at some of
my comments trying to say why this would be a bad idea, but I have a hard time
believing it would even be considered a legit idea by the head of the church. I
mean we all know what tithing is for right? Anyway, there is a lot
of money within the faith. I get the speculation on this topic based on the
insane landscape of college football. But then again, here in the United States,
we sure do worship our football. Don't get me wrong, I love my Utes, but
the rivalry has gotten so tired with me even though I will miss it and want to
play it. I just wish we all could gain some balanced perspective.The
majority of comments on these forums that I have read over the years consist of
a large percentage of inductive justifications by those wearing red and blue
glasses. Take them off ans see the sun (light) more often ya'll.
Good dialogue. I get the feeling that emotions rather than facts drive many of
the comments. Who has actual knowledge the effectiveness of the athletic
programs or where the funding comes from? I, too, support the leaders of the
church. I have trust in their leadership and follow them, even try to follow
their 'suggestions and recommendations', not just their counsel and
doctrine. While still striving to do better each day I never question the
actions of the prophet nor criticize . That stated, in my opinion, BYU sports
is self sustaining and claims that it is funded by the tithing funds is bogus.
Yet despite being self funded it is profitable. I am proud to be a supporter of
this wonderful entertainment.
ekute,No, making it the Holy War adds to the rivalry(for them,
former rivalry for us). Their religion is very much a part.
That's right chris...Colorado is now your rival... right? You can tell by
all the excitement that that game generates... How many fans have gone to see
that game over the past 3 yeas? I think that the average somewhere around 30,000
if I'm not mistaken... In fact, Colorado has an average attendance at home
of l than 30,000 which is last in the conference and among worst in Division
I... The utes are in 8th or 9th position in attendance with an average gate of
about 42,000 p/game...By those standards I guess you could say that
the BYU vs Savannah State game this year will be hotter and a more interesting
"rivalry" as I am sure that there will be about 30% More fans in
I find it highly amusing that may I would criticize the church for its athletic
program. No one ever raises their voice about this problem at Norte Dame, TCU,
Baylor, USC. A little crazy is the world these days.