I'll put my dollars behind BYU if they continue to make a commitment to
compete with the big boys....
I don't know what Rock thinks is happening in major athletics. College
football becoming indistinguishable from the NFL? How dense can you be? Adding
some meals, slightly larger stipends, and more health insurance benefits now
equates to 6 and 7-figure salaries and pension plans and year-round camps and
negotiated contracts? Yeah, that's moving toward being nearly identical.
This movement toward expanded benefits is much more about separating the haves
from the have-nots than the P5 from everybody else. Yes, the two are largely the
same, but not entirely. And BYU proves that there is some non-overlap between
the two disparate distinctions.The reality is BYU is financially
viable in a way few athletic departments are. Twenty-two FBS athletic
departments actually made money last year. That's less than half of all P5
schools. BYU was one of them. They're just fine and fully capable at this
point in time of financing anything the rest of the P5 schools are. If that
changes, maybe they should close up shop. But then again, maybe so should the
other 40 P5 schools that can't operate in the black.Nice
perspective, Rock. I feel very enlightened
Disappointing to see another article speak of "the arms race" as only
affecting BYU football. BYU athletics are not independent. BYU's
membership in the WCC conference affects football.BYU would not be
allowed to pay a stipend only to the football team. They'd have to provide
benefits to all their athletes. Each conference decides what stipends will be
paid. If the WCC decides they want stipend-free basketball, BYU will either
have to leave the conference or agree not to pay stipends. No stipends for
basketball? No stipend for football.
As I've said before Brad, should BYU move forward and at the very least
drop its football program, there could be some far reaching unintended
consequences. These could range from UVU starting a program that in less than a
decade could dwarf Utah State's (Boise State doing this to Idaho is a
classic example). Still further NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has made it
known he wishes to increase the amount of non-Sunday media inventory in any
future media deals with the networks, and given Salt Lake City's population
and media market size now it is on the leagues expansion and relocation list in
the group just after Los Angeles and Toronto (Portland, Salt Lake City,
Sacramento & Orlando are now the biggest in North America without the NFL).
But this could also hurt the BYU donor base hard, cheapen the student experience
and even dilute the value of a BYU undergraduate degree without raising the
value or enhancing the value for Utah State which is the motive if any of the
powers that be for dropping the program.
I think there's a lot of room for creativity here. Perhaps BYU can
customize their football & basketball player scholarship guarantees. I
think these athletes are still forced to choose between playing & getting a
truly worthwhile education. You just don't see athletes getting STEM
degrees and I'm telling you, that's the reason why: mens football
& basketball players who study too much are considered "uncommitted"
to their program. Yes, you have the occasional freak like Jeff Hornacek or
Kevin Lockett, but two out of thousands and thousands and thousands doesn't
cut it.Perhaps the school could reduce player coursework
requirements to 9-12 hours per semester, cover the full cost of attendance
through the years of eligibility, then cover tuition, books & fees for 2 or
3 years after their eligibility expires. That would allow them to both play and
develop proficiency in a skill set they can build a career on. Maybe
that's not the exact formula, but something like that, would be more
appealing to many students (parents!) than getting their bling on for 4 years,
then working as an assistant junior high school football coach for the rest of
Wether I agree or not, the future of college athletics is obvious. However, it
appears that Mr. Rock and Mr. Harmon of the Desnews are oblivious. Are you
really that supportive of BYU that you have become blind to the real
implications of these changes? Do you really believe that the
'mid-majors' collectively contribute very much to the total revenue of
the NCAA? Texas alone has a budget as large as the MWC schools. BYU can't
compete, the church won't allow it. Accept it and move on. The train has
left the station.
College football has really changed the last 10 years and not for the
better...it's all about $$$$$$. I miss the good ole' days when
student athletes were just that....student athletes.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should, sometimes you just have to
say no. With college athletics potentially changing so much, it just might be
worth it. I would hope all schools would remember exactly why they exist and to
be good in sports should never be in the top five reasons.
All these articles talk as if BYU acts in a vacuum and free of outside
influences. What is the effect of Title IX on whatever course BYU decides.
Also as SoonerUte says how does the WCC come into play? Sport writers seem to
believe, or at least in their coverage, BYU really is independent of outside
With the O'Bannon decision and a NCAA cap of $5000 per year above the
scholarship for compensation and unionization I'm not sure where this is
going. A huge headache for colleges I am sure. I can see a very
lop-sided field in the future. This will surely lead to antitrust litigation.I think it could spell doom for many unprofitable athletic programs in
the interim.Greed is going to destroy amateur sports.
It is hard situation because colleges exploit their athletes, in that they make
boatloads of money and students don't really see much of that, on the other
hand, you hate to see universities hiring athletes to represent them, kind of
takes away the passion. I have found when I do something I love for money, I
feel much less passionate about it. Conversely when I do it for the love of the
activity itself not for payment, I am much more passionate about it. I would
not feel comfortable with BYU paying its athletes, I want people to come to play
for BYU for the right reasons, I didn't get paid to be a missionary getting
paid would have made the work seem hollow.
Football is becoming so "corporate" sponsored that it really is a semi
pro leage. The Universitys are simply selling their names and loyal fan bases
in order to benefit financially. I dont know what "long term" is
anymore but I dont believe BYU will want to participate "long term" in
an even more professional league. IT could be over much sooner than many people
Rock, I think you are right on the money. BYU may have to fold up shop in
football. That would allow us to have a Rugby and soccer teams (NCAA). Sports
are important but probably not worth the amount of emphasis that we place on
Sports idolatry--sign of the times. That's okay; it's fun.
Pray tell. Why would the WCC care about how BYU treats it's football
student athletes? They are independent in football.
This is getting old but it hasn't really begun yet. The
'Armageddon' of college football is yet to come. Only their will be no
millennial rescue for collegiate sports (bad guys win). Burying my head in the
sand won't make it go away but I don't know how many more articles
like this I can read without going insane. It's obvious why we read one of
these daily here locally but pretty soon markets everywhere will be constantly
reading how irrelevant or even obsolete their programs/teams have become. Utah
is also affected (not just BYU). As things play out, I don't see BYU
dropping their program but I wouldn't be surprised either. Though the Utes
are in the P5 circle, they could find themselves out of it, or unable to succeed
inside of it. CF Landscape changes not only involves financial survival but
economic viability and competitive possibility. The latter will effect many
solid P5 programs across the country. Some schools (Alabama & Ohio State to
name a few) have long been written in the football book of life and are going to
succeed as the oppressors pets.
Ironically there have been so many comments from Utah and BYU fans over the last
2 days arguing over what team this impacts worse. This impacts both schools
negatively. BYU will now either be forced to leave the WCC in all other sports
in order to pay the football players more stipend money, or turn their football
program into a second tier team by staying on level with the MWC, AAC in order
to keep their sports in the WCC. On the other hand BYU fans are laughing at
Utah for not having enough money to compete with the USC and Oregon's of
the PAC (which they will not be able to, Oregon and USC have nearly an unlimited
budget and there is no shame in not being able to compete with them
financially). This is bad for college sports in Utah period. Do we dislike
each other so much we just want to see the other program crumble a little
quicker than our own? This isn't a Utah vs BYU argument, we both lose.
I'm sure BYU recognizes the importance of its sports Brand and will
continue to do what ever is asked of it to keep it strong. This article refers
to BYU facilities as if they need immediate improvements to keep up with the
Jones. Who has a better Basketball facility? The athletic building is much
better than 90% of those schools who even have one. The Baseball facility is
great. Lets talk Soccer, La Cross, Rugby, Tennis and on and on. Plans are in the
mix to build a training center for Basketball. Who has a better football Stadium
in Utah? It has always been ranked in the top 25 college facilities in the
country. I'm sorry, but I don't get this article. Sure things can
always be better but that can be said about any school's facilities.
Overall, I'd say BYU is among the best sports facilities in this country.
No sad story here is necessary.
Money has ruined college sports.
BYU is one of the few programs that are running in the black now, and when you
add what BYU will make when it will join the Big 12 or another Power 5
conference, it will be fine. I think it can afford extra food, insurance and
The rising cost of higher education is largely being driven by non-related
costs- athletics is one of them, as are meeting the ridiculous rules imposed by
the Feds and conferences. Id just as soon eliminate collegiate sports
altogether, and leave selling tickets to the pro teams/ Concentrate on
educating our kids, and little else.
Interesting, but not suprising, that some utah "fans" are once again on
here posting that this will be the demise of BYU. This despite the fact that BYU
dominates the debt ridden program in salt lake in finances and profitability.I think this simply shows their inferiority complexes, they know utah
cannot compete with BYU when it comes to an arms race, it frightens them, and so
they lash out, calling for the end to BYU athletics because ultimately they know
they are no better than a money losing second fiddle to BYU. Always have been,
always will be. lol
"The last thing the LDS Church needs to be operating is a quasi-professional
football team."Who are you kidding? It already is. Except that
the players aren't getting paid.
With college tuition being what it is these days, a full ride athletic
scholarship is still pretty decent compensation to "student athletes".
I realize that the blowhards in college football are pretending to be concerned
about the athlete, but in the end it is all about money and how "they"
can exploit college athletics even more for their own gain.If they
were really serious about their concerns for the athlete they could relax the
laws about the number of scholarships each program has, as well as a few others
relating to gifts and or meals etc, without completely ripping up the landscape
of one of the great past times in America. It will backfire and implode.I predict that BYU coffers will overflow from the support it gets from
its following. This has to have them ticked off and motivated. I personally
intend on donating much more to BYU athletics in the coming years. It is the state tax funded schools that will be in big trouble. Especially the
so called "elites" that remain at the bottom of their conferences.
81ute. Wishful thinking on your part. I don't believe your Utes are one
of those in the black. BYU will be in the thick of recruiting the best lds kids
as they ways have. Throw in a smattering of non lds kids and nothing will
change. BYU is in it for the long haul.
Two points:First, This doesn't just affect BYU football but all
non FBS schools and will need to be the concern of lawmakers as it has in other
anti-trust casesSecond, I'd like the SLC sportwriters to tell
the taxpayers how Utah (and other schools) have funded their facilities when
they are underwritten by taxpayers and supplemented by donors. What's the
difference in the funding model between the Salt Palace and RES? Are any funds
being co-mingled? How much is funded by taxpayer money??If you want
to see some real money being thrown at college sports, look at the facilities at
Nebraska, Ohio State and Florida... No, there's not much
difference between some programs and the NFL. Sad...
BYU has a TV audience that must be far greater than most universities and it is
growing. I like what they are doing. The team keeps knocking on the door of the
top 25 and the door will open one of these years.
BYU should do everything it can to have a first rate football program. Football
is the most popular sport in America and certainly in Utah and College Football
is the headliner.These athletes, most retire after college football go on to
contribute to society in meaningful ways.The discipline,teamwork, and leadership
skills benefit society in so many ways. It is a great sport and fans love it.
"BYU has the following and the resources. The place makes money, something
only a handful of universities accomplish.So when the Y. says it
intends to remain viable in the face of the NCAA's new reforms, it's a
convincing argument. Because of its ESPN contract, private television network
and debt-free facilities, BYU can afford things many programs; including most of
the mid-majors; can't."-Brad RockThis notion is
repeated so often that I have to wonder if that's the reason it is accepted
as fact. Does anyone actually know the extent to which byu athletics'
pockets are over flowing with cash? I don't doubt they operate in the
black but is all the bluster about being able to keep up with the P5s really
appropriate... Rock...the next time you are looking for story go
find out where the basketball practice facility is that Holmoe has been
promising for the last 10 years. B BarnardSalt Lake City,
UT"...when you add what BYU will make when it will join the Big
12 or another Power 5 conference, it will be fine."Hmmmmm...ever
heard the phrase - 'putting the cart before the horse.'
DuckhunterHighland, UTInteresting, but not suprising, that some utah
"fans" are once again on here posting that this will be the demise of
BYU. This despite the fact that BYU dominates the debt ridden program in salt
lake in finances and profitability.I think this simply shows their
inferiority complexes, they know utah cannot compete with BYU when it comes to
an arms race, it frightens them, and so they lash out, calling for the end to
BYU athletics because ultimately they know they are no better than a money
losing second fiddle to BYU. Always have been, always will be. lol_____________Absolute denial right there. The inferiority complex
is in your very own post. I don't care if BYU is in the black. You
can't compete on the field, beat ranked teams, and you are in the WCC with
other sports. Oh by the way, 40+ years and counting, you are still on the
outside looking in. If the athletic department bankroll of BYU mattered you
would be in a P5 conference already. Don't you think?Go ahead
an attempt to brag all you want. It's not working.
"As Rick College proved, at some point, having a fine school alone might
need to be good enough."Well said. I'm a Utah fan and I
enjoy college football, but frankly I miss the old days of the WAC.
Re: SLC BYU fanWhatever concerns BYU may have at this time, the
threat of an NFL team is certainly not one of them. SLC will not have an NFL
team in any of our lifetimes.
Duckhunter,It won't an arms race between the schools and
conferences in the P5. It will be an arms race for byu to keep up with the P5.
Not just in matching the benefits extended to players. Mr. Rock points out that
while byu's facilities are still modern and impressive, they pale in
comparison to the newer and currently being built ones in the P5. No doubt, byu
can keep up...but will the governing body allow that? The problem for byu
remains exclusion, scheduling and relevance.
Last reported revenues and expenses:Utah football: $27,640,267 -
$14,362,313 = $13,277,954Utah basketball: $5,574,287 - $6,350,110 =
($775,823) (women's basketball is over $2M in red)BYU football:
$18,639,413 - $14,428,930 = $4,210,483BYU basketball: $6,937,135 -
$6,937,134 = $1 It's clear why BYU is begging the Big 12 for an
There are several problems here:1. What about all the other sports?
Football and Basketball generate revenue. Other sports do not. They depend on
the money makers to survive. The "arms race" will hurt them the most.
Maybe the P5 can afford to give benefits to everyone. To compete, other schools
will start dropping more and more "non-revenue" sports in order to
survive.2. A lot of these Taj Mahal facilities were built by Big
Donors. They may be willing to foot the bill for a football palace at a
power-house school, but others will have to settle for a nice scoreboard.
That's another area of "competition" that is often overlooked.3. When does "paying the true cost attendance" turn into a
bidding war? Who is going to set a limit on this? I can see a day coming when P5
schools will give athletes more than the non-elite schools can afford.The end result is that more and more money will go to fewer and fewer schools.
This column says, maybe this, maybe that. I'm not sure I learned anything
from it or gleaned a position by the writer.
One question to ask is:If student athletes should be paid a stipend
because they are the guys on the court/field doing the stuff that brings revenue
to the program, then should we also pay the musicians in the performing groups,
or the dancers in the dance companies, or the actors in the drama department, or
any student who participates in any performing role for any ticketed event?If not, why not?
Yep!It's time for BYU to drop football.Leave the
greedy train.I'll adapt to something else.
What is most frustrating about some of these comments, is people wishing for the
good old days of college football. The NCAA has been using student athletes for
decades and has thrown them to the curb when they are done with them. Now, the
schools that have the money can provide more for its students. Gone are the
days of the students not having enough to eat and not having enough long term
medical care for injuries that result in participation. This is progress for
everyone. For those saying it's all about the money, of course it is. But
we the fans are the cause of it being all about the money. We the fans have
made this game so popular. We the fans tune in and watch in large numbers that
result in the large TV contracts. Fact its, we the fans have made college
football big business. With regards to BYU, it will be very
interesting to see how this plays out for them. My guess is that they will
provide the same level of increases at P5 schools.
Uh....BYU's men's soccer program already is a professional team
playing in a professional league and they put it there by choice. What that
means is that we already know BYU is willing to put a program into a
professional league without to many qualms. Football becoming more like a
professional league hardly seems like it would be a deterrent to a school that
already sponsors a professional team in a much less cared about sport.
Brad Rock....can you be any more naïve? Seriously. I'm wondering
whether this was a serious article or if you had your tongue in your cheek the
entire time. BYU draw a line in the sand? They would be laughed right off the
field. And just to put it in perspective, I am not a member of the "hate
everything BYU" club. Although I am a Utah fan, I would love to see BYU
get an invite to join the Big 12. Honestly, that would be great for football in
the state of Utah and is realistically the only shot that BYU has to stave off
irrelevance. The idea that BYU has the power to draw a line in the sand is
DuckhunterHighland, UTInteresting, but not suprising, that
some utah "fans" are once again on here posting that this will be the
demise of BYU. This despite the fact that BYU dominates the debt ridden program
in salt lake in finances and profitability.------------Which program's? It's certainly not football and men's
basketball:Utah Football: ~$13 million profit last reported yearBYU Football: ~$4 million profit last reported yearUtah Men's
Basketball: $5,425,714 - $4,155,280 = $1,270,434 profitBYU Men's
Basketball: $5,352,790 - $5,352,790 = $0 profitSource: U.S.
Department of Education
Uteology, interesting numbers???I have never seen any reports that
show UofU making money.I think the biggest question for both teams
is, so people want to continue funding these sports.BYU - to grow it
will take donors, do they want to do that with their money?UofU - Do
the tax payers really want to fund your arms race?Either way this is
bad new for Utah football as a whole. But lets all go on and beat our own
chests! I was a student athlete - but even I would consider letting both of
these programs die out.
I am pretty confident that BYU can establish itself as a Top 10 Division II team
when everything is all said and done. But think about it, if division status
changes, as it sounds like it will, March Madness could only include the Power 5
conferences, major bowl games will be tied to the Power 5 conferences, and in
order to make that work, equal equity among the Power 5 conferences may exist.
ESPN might only be tied to Division 1 teams with the changes ahead, which does
not include Provo. BYU should probably stop spending energy begging to get into
a Power 5 conference, (because they all have said "no way") and start
repairing relationships with their future division teammates. The "I'm
better than anyone else" attitude of the last 20 years has really not sat
well, its been very pompous. Accept reality, be all you can be in Division II.
Because BYU is about more than just winning games, they will be around for a
long time and will compete financially too. The program is for good kids who
want to avoid or escape environments that are destructive to a persons self
worth. This appeals to both LDS kids and non-LDS kids and in future years will
become very attractive. Ricks College couldn't do that. BYU can.
I think a few of these comments are spot on. This will effect all of the D-1
schools in Utah and my State of Nevada. Not sure I like the change to college
football. I have been a fan for soooo long, but, when it starts to become semi
pro and the potential for certain schools of the southeast to use this to buy
athletes, then I don't know.... already a good portion of the big boys
football world is reeling from the loss of decades old rivalries.
311uteReno, NVWhat is most frustrating about some of these comments,
is people wishing for the good old days of college football. _____Unfortunately that is all BYU fans have! They are living off
the 84' title and their WAC legacy.Yep, the good old days.
tcom2011Fort Worth, TX"BYU - to grow it will take donors,
do they want to do that with their money?UofU - Do the tax payers
really want to fund your arms race?"LOL! No, the tax payers
don't want to fund the arms race. The really great part is...the tax
payers won't have to. Why? Because the tax payers have never given Utah
athletics a dime and never will.
tcom2011,Utah has a few donors of it's own. Ever heard of
Spence Eccles? Jon M. Huntsman Sr.? There's a constant influx from former
Utes that have succeeded in the NFL. Yes, and most delicious are the tax dollars
from happy valley.
"Unfortunately that is all BYU fans have! They are living off the 84'
title and their WAC legacy.Yep, the good old days."Yes
those were the best days BYU has had as of yet, but that WAC legacy still is a
much longer and more complete dynasty than 2 seasons of glory. Even in
Utah's "Golden Decade", BYU finished ranked more than Utah did and
had more 10+ win seasons.
@tcom2011I think the biggest question for both teams is, so people
want to continue funding these sports.BYU - to grow it will take
donors, do they want to do that with their money?UofU - Do the tax
payers really want to fund your arms race?--------------Depends, do tax payers want substantial economic benefits? Do they want to
drive tourism through "exposure"? [A study] found that
Utah's involvement in the Pac-12 has brought "substantial" economic
growth to the state... The study looked at out-of-state football fans attending
four football games at Rice-Eccles Stadium. In 2012 alone, out-of-state fans
spent an estimated $2.3 million on travel, food and lodging... The study found
that approximately 275 jobs were created and a total of $6.6 million was
generated during the time evaluated. State tax revenue was approximately
$660,000... Researchers also found that the overall impression of the state
received favorable reviews. Of fans polled, 62 percent said they were more
likely to visit in the future."NOTE: The above $6.6 million
benefits to local employees was only from FOUR football games.
I disagree with Rock on this one. I think BYU is better positioned than all but
3 or 4 programs in the country to deal with the new rules. Go Cougs
Answer...No, taxpayers do not want to fund a perpetually losing U of
U athletic department.As for tourism in Utah, that has to do with the
great outdoors, Industry, historic sights, National parks and skiing.And as to your obsession with seeing BYU's demise...Don't hold your
breath.They are now and in the future will continue to be more financially
solvent than will the U.The 40 low level teams in the P-5
Conferences (Utah, Wazzu etc..)are State schools and will suffer the most. Add
Title-9 to the mix and it is very problematic for U.Conference tie
in, Independence....either way, BYU is just fine, Thank You.Just
worry about your insolvent, debt ridden, smallest budget, U of U Athletic
Department, instead of BYU's fiscally responsible programs. Especially in
the middle of the night.
The most irrelevant football programs are not successful mid-major programs (BYU
and BSU). No, the most irrelevant football programs are the bottom-dwelling P-5
programs - Indiana, Kansas, Iowa State, Mississippi State, Colorado, Utah, etc.
@Uteology,If Utah being in a P5 conference brings in that much to
the state, imagine if BYU (with their bigger fan base, bigger stadium, etc) were
invited to the Big 12. Why do you oppose it so much?Ute fans seem to
be determined to see BYU fail and I can't understand why. They don't
want BYU in a P5 conference and claim that if they were they would go 2-10. I
think the U fans' greatest fear is for BYU to actually have 2 or more
winning seasons in the first 5 years of Big 12 membership (if that happens I can
already hear the excuses now . . . "The PAC-12 is stronger than the Big
12", "Utah was invited first, so they're better", "You
avoided having to play Oklahoma and Texas during your first two years",
@BlutoSo you're no fan of "substantial" economic
growth? Nor are you a fan of job creators (Utah football, men's
basketball). And I am willing to bet you have no problem with tax payers
subsidizing multi-billion dollar organizations?
@BlutoAnd as to your obsession with seeing BYU's
demise...Don't hold your breath.They are now and in the future will
continue to be more financially solvent than will the U.The 40 low
level teams in the P-5 Conferences (Utah, Wazzu etc..)are State schools and will
suffer the most. Add Title-9 to the mix and it is very problematic for U.------------And I would say the same to you sir on your
obsession with Utah's demise. Don't worry about the U, be happy about
the Y having such "deep" pockets.
BYU provo should do what all other byus are doing and just get rid of collegiate
sports. The intramural program will allow more students the opportunity to
participate in sports.
@Riverton Cougar@Uteology,If Utah being in a P5
conference brings in that much to the state, imagine if BYU (with their bigger
fan base, bigger stadium, etc) were invited to the Big 12. Why do you oppose it
so much?-------------The study I cited was for PAC-12
"out-of-state fans" traveling to Salt Lake. What does your fan-base
have to do with the Big 12 fan's traveling and spending habits?Why do I need to imagine? Since Texas (Big 12) played in Provo last season,
do you have any numbers to show that game's "substantial" local
If BYU ever drops football I would have to move out of state to find another
high caliber college team to support.
65TossPowerTrapSalmon, ID said:"The most irrelevant
football programs are not successful mid-major programs (BYU and BSU). No, the
most irrelevant football programs are the bottom-dwelling P-5 programs -
Indiana, Kansas, Iowa State, Mississippi State, Colorado, Utah, etc."Another BYU fan that feels BYU deserves to be in a P5 conference rather
than earn it.Interesting, I don't hear any of the P5 commissioners
and coaches talk about teams like that in their own conferences. Why do you
think that is? If they were irrelevant they would get rid of them.
Probably too soon to say what the ultimate outcome of all of this will be.Time will tell.We should expect additional aggressive action
on the part of the P5, so much so that the numerator & denominator of the
issue is as yet unclear.But it is unlikely the P5 will go quietly
into the night. They have achieved a massive change in NCAA rulemaking, and are
not the type of organizations that tend to sit on their hands.The
marketing, financial, and recruiting windfall from these events may be beyond
calculation.Imagine the gap five, ten, or fifteen years from
now......No way to tell right now how this will all unfold.But it will most likely unfold based on the P5 agenda, clearly, since they
appear to be well funded, lawyered up, united, and organized.Good
luck out there.
"Interesting, I don't hear any of the P5 commissioners and coaches talk
about teams like that in their own conferences. Why do you think that is? If
they were irrelevant they would get rid of them."@NightOwl,Of course a commissioner is not going to come out and say "Yeah, we
wish we didn't have Vanderbilt in our conference". That's like
expecting Whittingham to say "Yeah, finishing 2nd to last in our division
this year sounds about right. We can't compete with the PAC".@Uteology"The study I cited was for PAC-12 "out-of-state
fans" traveling to Salt Lake. What does your fan-base have to do with the
Big 12 fan's traveling and spending habits?"BYU fans in
those areas may be more likely to travel to Provo. Don't you think
it's possible for a BYU fan living in Oklahoma to also cheer for the
Sooners or the Pokes as well? It's naive to think BYU to Big 12
wouldn't help the state of Utah economically, even if there hasn't
been a study concerning Texas fans coming to Provo.
Riverton CougarRiverton, UT"Interesting, I don't hear any
of the P5 commissioners and coaches talk about teams like that in their own
conferences. Why do you think that is? If they were irrelevant they would get
rid of them."@NightOwl,Of course a commissioner is
not going to come out and say "Yeah, we wish we didn't have Vanderbilt
in our conference". That's like expecting Whittingham to say "Yeah,
finishing 2nd to last in our division this year sounds about right. We
can't compete with the PAC"._______Hey thats
just like how ESPN feels about BYU. In public they say its a great partnership.
But ESPN is tired of mediocre ratings and BYU losing to ranked teams on their
@Riverton Cougar@NightOwl,Of course a commissioner is
not going to come out and say "Yeah, we wish we didn't have Vanderbilt
in our conference". ----------No, but a conference
can "vote" a member out, just like when the Big East voted out Temple in
2004."The presidents and chancellors of the seven universities
of the Big East Conference's I-A football league have voted to discontinue
Temple University's membership,'' the Big East spokesman, John
Paquette, said. Big East Commissioner Michael Tranghese said Temple consistently
failed to meet criteria unanimously adopted by the members in 1996."I can only assume that since no such vote is occurring for a team like
Vanderbilt they are more relevant than a team who is on the outside looking in.
@waccyNothing more pathetic than a utah "fan" that has
supposedly "moved on" spending all of its time reading and commenting on
BYU articles then constantly predicting the doom of the BYU sports program
because you are really quote frightened by its existence. You, and all utah
"fans", know that as long as BYU has an athletic program utah will
always be second fiddle in this state and let's face the facts, utah will
never be a draw or a factor in any other state at all. Your only hope to be more
than a losing program firmly positioned in the bottom half of the pac12 is for
BYU to go away because you hope that means the top LDS recruits, and instate
recruits, will then all go to utah which is their only hope of ever being even
vaguely competitive.Unfortunately for you those top LDS recruits,
and even instate recruits, with very few exceptions won't then settle for
the loser utah program, they'll instead go to ucla, stanford, or usc.
Accept the reality that you will always be a bottom feeder because that is just
the way it is.
For now there will be success in p5 conferences for teams like Utah, teams that
are near the bottom/middle of the standings but who perennially can't win
the conference. Eventually the top teams will abandon those lower teams and
will form some sort of huge alliance. Imagine what happens when all the teams
who make a profit decide they're tired of sharing $$. They'll band
together in some superconference.I think BYU needs to create their
own brand of conference and invite a broad range of teams. Local TV will buy
the rights. Then when the superconference starts up the cast offs will have to
do the same, and will start at a disadvantage. Or join forces and create a
super league of entertaining sports teams. Leave the power teams to their
money, they'll fight it out and eventually hit the earnings ceiling.
They'll have a ton of one and done players in football and for those kids
it won't have anything to do with education, so those schools might as well
drop the student part of the playing requirement. It all makes sense now.
"Hey thats just like how ESPN feels about BYU. In public they say its a
great partnership. But ESPN is tired of mediocre ratings and BYU losing to
ranked teams on their dime."There is proof that Vanderbilt
isn't as good as the other teams. Is there proof that ESPN feels that way
about BYU?"No, but a conference can "vote" a member out,
just like when the Big East voted out Temple in 2004. . . . I can only assume
that since no such vote is occurring for a team like Vanderbilt they are more
relevant than a team who is on the outside looking in."But we
have been told by Ute fans that Utah will not ever get kicked out no matter hbow
poorly they do because conferences have their own rules dealing with membership
and most, including the PAC 12, do not allow vote-kicking a member. So which is
@Rufus T. Firefly"BYU is ranked 97th this year in terms of
strength of schedule, while the Utes are ranked 11th. More than half of
BYU's opponents this year are ranked even lower than BYU, i.e. Utah State,
Middle Tennessee, Savannah State, Central Florida, etc. I guess that means that
those BYU competitors' schedules aren't "strengthened" by BYU
being added to their schedule, does it?"Alabama is ranked 95th
this year in terms of strength of schedule, despite having Auburn, Texas
A&M, LSU, and Ole Miss on the schedule. I guess that means that
Alabama's schedule isn't "strengthened" by these teams?"And remember, Utah over BYU 4 out of 4, 9 out of 12....and to imply
that BYU would fare better given a stronger or similar schedule to that of Utah,
then just keep up that pipe dream....and that's reality!"You suggest that since Utah managed to beat BYU that BYU could in no way match
or beat Utah's record if given their schedule? And you claim that as
reality!? Wow. Honestly, we don't know how well BYU would do, although
indicators suggest they very well could do better.
I have a question for BYU fans here that brought up Temple being kicked out of
the Big East. Why are you only telling part of the story?How come
none of you gave the reason why? It's because Temple was a football only
member of the Big East at the time. And before that they were denied full status
for all sports in favor of Rutgers.In 1996 the Big East booted Temple, yet
Rutgers was allowed to stay and had the same problems. Back door shenanigans of
corrupt leadership to let them stay.In other words your straw man argument
is meaningless. The Temple example does not apply. BTW- since that
time how come nobody has been kicked out of the P5 conferences?
of course, all these Ute comments are hoping that BYU exits college football
because it MIGHT make the Utes relevant in their own home state. Maybe not,
because they never will have a winning season, but by default, some fans in the
State will watch their efforts, right??
@NightOwlAmerica,It's the Ute fans bringing up Temple getting
kicked out here. If anything you helped BYU fans' points. There was a time
when some BYU fans said that Utah and Colorado might get kicked out of the PAC
12 for not pulling their weight (citing Temple), many Ute fans stated that
Temple could get kicked out because the Big East allowed kicking members, but
the others don't.So, to answer your question, nobody has been
kicked out because THEY CAN'T, according to your Ute friends.Also, as you pointed out, there is "back door shenanigans of corrupt
leadership" to help them stay in. You didn't help your Ute
friends' point.I dare you to google "Ten Teams who should
be kicked out of BCS conferences" and read the bleacher report article. Utah
is not looked at in favorable light by P5 schools.
Rufus,You are mixing politics and football. Utah wasn't invited
for football, and BYU has not been invited yet, and it's not because of
football. It's true that Utah is in a P5 conference, but as I told
NightOwlAmerica they are not viewed favorably. Thank goodness the PAC
doesn't allow kicking schools out and you better hope the U gets better
before they change the rules.We are going to see a lot of change, I
imagine. Don't assume that the change will be for the worst for BYU.
Changes could lead to conferences expanding, or conferences swapping out
members. We won't know for sure until we see it.
Riverton CougarRiverton, UT@NightOwlAmerica,It's
the Ute fans bringing up Temple getting kicked out here. If anything you helped
BYU fans' points. There was a time when some BYU fans said that Utah and
Colorado might get kicked out of the PAC 12 for not pulling their weight (citing
Temple)Also, as you pointed out, there is "back door shenanigans
of corrupt leadership" to help them stay in. You didn't help your Ute
friends' point.I dare you to google "Ten Teams who should
be kicked out of BCS conferences" and read the bleacher report article. Utah
is not looked at in favorable light by P5 schools._________It's not up to bleacher report to decide anything. And you selectively
ignored the part about Temple being a football only member back then.That's right backdoor shenanigans. How is the Big East doing these days?
Stuck on football again. This is exactly what you and several other BYU
fans can't accept. Utah and Colorado were chosen for more than football.
Academics, research etc are reasons why.
"There is proof that Vanderbilt isn't as good as the other teams. Is
there proof that ESPN feels that way about BYU?"Vanderbilt has
been to 3 consecutive bowl games and has gone 9-4 in each of the last 2 years,
including 9-7 against their SEC schedule."Alabama is ranked 95th
this year in terms of strength of schedule, despite having Auburn, Texas
A&M, LSU, and Ole Miss on the schedule."No, this is their
sos merely using the ncaa method which solely uses the collective '13
record of their '14 opponents'. Alabama's sos ranking is
significantly higher in other places, such as espn's and phil
steele's. I guarantee U, ua's sos will finish light years ahead of
byu's, upon playing against their 8 game sec schedule, plus West Virginia.
@AZUTE1I didn't realize Vanderbilt was such a powerhouse. The
PAC should have invited them an not Utah if they knew how good Vandy was."Alabama's sos ranking is significantly higher in other places,
such as espn's and phil steele's."In Phil
Steele's SOS ranking:Alabama (61)BYU (73)Still not a terribly large difference. Notice that BYU's SOS is higher,
too. Besides, if Alabama's SOS can improve throughout the season, why
"I didn't realize Vanderbilt was such a powerhouse."In
other words, I correctly refuted your argument. Thanks for confirming it."Besides, if Alabama's SOS can improve throughout the season,
why can't BYU's?"Because, as I previously mentioned,
Alabama plays against a 8 game sec schedule, plus West Virginia. On the other
hand, byu plays against Texas and?
Temple was kicked out, which shows precedence that a conference can choose to
kick out a member from conference. Will it happen to Utah like most BYU fans
fantasize about? The probability is closer to zero.@Riverton
Cougar: "I dare you to google "Ten Teams who should be kicked out of BCS
conferences" and read the bleacher report article. Utah is not looked at in
favorable light by P5 schools."Nope! Eddie Dzurilla
doesn't speak for P5 schools. Personally, I think Larry Scott
and the opinion of the PAC-10 presidents was more important.Why
should Ute Nation care about what a person who works at "Trilogy Payment
Solutions, a merchant services (credit and debit card processing) vendor as
their Director of Marketing and Sales" thinks about Utah back in 2010? Let's see Dzurilla's argument is for kicking out Utah from the
PAC-12 in favor of BYU, who apparently plays in Salt Lake City and apparently
all he cares about is BYU's WAC resume (because BYU doesn't have a BCS
Resume). It's obvious that in 2010 he didn't read Dennis
Dodd's (CBS Sports Senior Writer) article that ranked Utah #10 and BYU #27
over the previous decade.
Rufus T. FireflySalt Lake City, UTDuckhunter....your post made
me laugh, because your response represents everything the majority of college
football programs who always rate BYU as one of the most-hated teams...and
it's not because BYU sometimes beats them...it's the arrogance and
lack of humility that is exhibited by BYU and their fans. ----------It's not just the fans. For me, as a kid, it was
Lenny Gomes after we finally started beating them: "All those
guys think that’s all there is to life. But when I’m making
$50-60,000 a year, they’ll be pumping my gas. They’re low class
losers.”Now for the next generation it will be Max Hall's
I am amused by how azute wants to use the NCAA rankings to comment on BYU's
schedule but wants to use different rankings to comment on Alabama's.
Typical utah "fan" dishonesty and hypocrisy. lol
So let's see rufus and uteology if I have this right. When utah
"fans" get on a BYU article and predict the demise of BYU while
commenting on how bad a program they claim BYU is it is simply an 'honest
assessment' of the situation with no guile whatsoever?But when
a BYU fan comments in reply about how poorly utah has actually performed, the
obvious disadvantages utah has and the unlikelyhood it will ever be more than a
low level pac12 program then those BYU fans are "arrogant" and
"hated by the entire country"?LOL!
"In other words, I correctly refuted your argument. Thanks for confirming
it."It's called sarcasm.I'd like to see
Utah put together an independent schedule. BYU does a pretty good job
considering. Besides, some of the teams on BYU's schedule were a lot better
when BYU schedules them than they are projected to be this year. BYU can't
change how good an opponent is, but they can make them look bad at times by how
bad they beat them down.
@DuckhunterNo, IMO here's some examples of why BYU is hated:A) Lenny GomesB) BYU football: Max Hall reprimanded by Mountain
West ConferenceC) Dick Harmon went on ESPN and nearly cried when Utah was
invited to the PAC-12D) Angry BYU Fans Throw Garbage At [PAC-12]
RefereesE) BYU apologizes to [Utah State] for ill-advised Jumbotron
message F) MWC reprimands Jorgensen, Lamb for comments they made about Air
@ UteologyYou forgot one!G) The BYU alumni in the replay
booth incident in the 2010 game against SDSU.@ Riverton Cougar"I'd like to see Utah put together an independent
schedule"Why on earth would Utah or any team want to go
independent? There is nothing to play for. Utah already has 9 built in games
against P5 opponents on their schedule, plus they have Michigan this year and
H) The BYU fans never ever stating after a loss; "we got beat by a better
@ Riverton Cougar"I'd like to see Utah put together an
independent schedule." Idaho and New Mexico St. did it. Why
wouldn't Utah be able to?
Here's couple that I missed:G) A BYU fan attacked a Ute
Cheerleader while other BYU fans clapped in approval at LESH) BYU
creates controversy as pre-game Haka ritual* In the 2005 rivalry
game, the haka was performed facing Utah instead of the student body. Safety Joe
Dale and linebacker Stevenson Sylvester crossed over to BYU’s side of the
field when BYU began to perform the haka. Soon, a score of Ute players followed,
leading to a heated confrontation between the teams before the referees broke up
the argument.* When several BYU players performed the ritual at a
pep rally on Fremont Street before the 2006 Vegas Bowl, Oregon players attempted
to jump the crowd barriers to confront BYU.I) In 1977, BYU soundly
beat Utah 38–8 in Provo. With less than two minutes left, BYU's star
QB, Marc Wilson, was sent back into the game to set an NCAA passing record. In
his post-game remarks to the press, Howard accused Edwards of running up the
"Idaho and New Mexico St. did it. Why wouldn't Utah be able to?"Ok, get Texas to come play at RES. Sure, they could put together a
schedule, but can they put together a good one? BYU has had good independent
schedules, and will have more. I doubt Utah could do much better than the worst
BYU independent schedule.
@ Riverton CougarI don't know what Utah would be able to do,
but I have confidence that Utah can attract quality teams.What I do
know is that Idaho's SOS last year was 72, which will most likely be higher
than BYU's SOS for the upcoming season....
Riverton CougarRiverton, UT"Idaho and New Mexico St. did it. Why
wouldn't Utah be able to?"Ok, get Texas to come play at
RES. Sure, they could put together a schedule, but can they put together a good
one? BYU has had good independent schedules, and will have more. I doubt Utah
could do much better than the worst BYU independent schedule.________Utah could do just as good or better. They are not bound
by no Sunday play for other sports. When AD's talk to each other about
football, they also talk about playing olympic sports against each other as
well.Wyoming had Texas in Laramie. So much for Texas playing at
LES. Utah is just fine with it's scheduling. Nine games are already
set with PAC 12 members.And Wyoming does not seem to have a problem
scheduling teams. They play Oregon and Michigan State this season. Who cares,
the games are on the road. They are still playing them. Almost beat Nebraska and
have them on the schedule again in two years. Give up comparing your
schedule with Utah BYU fans. You can't even keep up with Wyoming.
UteologyEast Salt Lake City, UtahHere's couple that I
missed:G) A BYU fan attacked a Ute Cheerleader while other BYU fans
clapped in approval at LESH) BYU creates controversy as pre-game
Haka ritual* In the 2005 rivalry game, the haka was performed facing
Utah instead of the student body. Safety Joe Dale and linebacker Stevenson
Sylvester crossed over to BYU’s side of the field when BYU began to
perform the haka. Soon, a score of Ute players followed, leading to a heated
confrontation between the teams before the referees broke up the argument.* When several BYU players performed the ritual at a pep rally on
Fremont Street before the 2006 Vegas Bowl, Oregon players attempted to jump the
crowd barriers to confront BYU.I) In 1977, BYU soundly beat Utah
38–8 in Provo. With less than two minutes left, BYU's star QB, Marc
Wilson, was sent back into the game to set an NCAA passing record. In his
post-game remarks to the press, Howard accused Edwards of running up the
score.___________Not just football.2012
Basketball when BYU got trashed at home by St. Mary's. Fans threw garbage
on the court and at the refs.
Riverton CougarRiverton, UT"Idaho and New Mexico St. did
it. Why wouldn't Utah be able to?"Ok, get Texas to come
play at RES. Sure, they could put together a schedule, but can they put together
a good one? BYU has had good independent schedules, and will have more. I doubt
Utah could do much better than the worst BYU independent schedule.------------You wouldn't if you did some research.Considering that Utah has played Stanford, Texas A&M, Oregon, ULCA, Oregon
State, Pitt, etc. at RES before joining the PAC-12. While Texas was actually
scheduled to play at RES in 2008, but that series was canceled by Urban Meyer.
"As a Texas native, quarterback Brian Johnson has followed the
progress of the Texas Longhorns through the years. Now with the Longhorns No. 1
and Utah in the BCS hunt, Johnson wonders what it would have been like if the
Longhorns were kept on Utah's schedule and had played at Rice-Eccles
Stadium this year . The series with Texas was canceled at former coach
Urban Meyer's urging." -- SL Trib
If BYU dropped athletics it will fall off the map and be regarded with the
"Liberty University" and "Bob Jones" universities of the world.
There will probably be a set demarcation of money so the Indianas, the
Mississippi States and the Minnesotas can compete with everybody else. Another
option for BYU is to not try to keep up. It's unlikely the Sun Belt will
start playing players, why not go that route with them?
So then getting Texas back wouldn't be so hard then if Wyoming can do it.
Again, you guys are comparing BYU's weakest independent schedule with other
schedules.What P5 out of conference teams, besides Michigan, plans
to come to RES?And let's see, 22 of the last 36 comments on
this BYU article are from Ute fans. I bet most of the WSU/Washington trash talk
takes place on Washington boards. I bet most of the Oregon State/Oregon trash
talk takes place on Oregon boards. See a pattern?
So what you are saying uteology is that utah "fans" hate BYU, but we all
knew that anyway. No one else cares about nay of those things and all are pretty
tame anyway. How about these.*Up 40+ points in the 2nd half kyle
whittingham orders his team to kick an onside kick because his feelings were
hurt by the big meany wyoming coach making some really tame comments to the
wyoming booster club.*At the end of utah's 2009 loss to BYU
kyle whittingham's son attacked a BYU fan and threw his phone out onto the
filed losing it. The utah athletic department later paid for the BYU fans phone
admitting guilt.*At the end of 2008's win over BYU several
classy utah "fans" verbally accosted the mother and family of BYU qb Max
Hall including pouring drinks onto them.*In a pregame speech utah
safety morgan scalley goes on and on about his hate for BYU and all they stand
for, claiming he had "hated them since I was born" among other classless
comments.There's plenty more of course, but utah "fan"
dishonesty and hypocrisy blinds them to their own classlessness and bad
@Riverton CougarAnd let's see, 22 of the last 36 comments on
this BYU article are from Ute fans. I bet most of the WSU/Washington trash talk
takes place on Washington boards. I bet most of the Oregon State/Oregon trash
talk takes place on Oregon boards. See a pattern?-----------I do see a pattern:Washington OWNS Washington State...
Oregon OWNS Oregon State ... just like Utah OWNS BYUThanks, but that
was too obvious.
"I do see a pattern:Washington OWNS Washington State... Oregon
OWNS Oregon State ... just like Utah OWNS BYUThanks, but that was
too obvious."If you noticed a pattern, you would probably have
noticed that all these comments are taking place on BYU boards. I thought it was
obvious! Thanks for proving my point.
Regarding Stipends...shouldn't boosters and fans that pay for BYU's
team deserve one more than the state schools getting millions in subsidies???
Let's just cut to the chase....as long as BYU is able to play
sports, and in particular, football, on days other than Sundays and, during the
changing rules and general 'expansion' of college sports, not do
anything that is illegal or immoral they will keep participating in collegiate
sports, particularly football.Why?Because exposure of
BYU sports, and in particular, a winning football team, equates to people
becoming curious about BYU and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
and that in turn leads to new LDS members.Works for me!
@BleedCougarBlueThat's all that matters Guy!
Count me among those who feel that this is not good for either Utah or BYU. On
the other hand, the sooner that greed finally destroys college sports, the
better. When we can finally see some light and the football factories separate
themselves, the others might finally find a way to either blow up their football
programs or be forever seen as trying and failing to make football relevant on
their campuses. I hear a lot of talk about how a college isn't really a
college without big time college football and I have to laugh at that. There are
so many great universities in this nation where football either isn't even
played, or it's just an afterthought. If you are a president of a
university that does not choose to take part in this madness, here is a remedy
for the insanity which is about to ensue--don't take part. Find a different
way to make sports something that may not make much money for your school, but
that really adds value to your school and serves your students.
byu football is not the missionary tool byu fans pretend it to be. Many immoral
actions (strip clubs, pregnancies, assaults, drunk drivings, belittling remarks
on the jumbotron, fans throwing things at refs in both basketball and football
games, fans attacking cheerleaders, etc.) and self-righteous comments ("we
obey the commandments more than you so God blesses us to beat you" and
"this is the Lord's team" type) by byu athletes, coaches, and fans
drastically drown any potential good byu athletics may be spreading. One need
look no further than many of the comments on this article left by byu fans to
see how repulsive byu sports makes the mormon church. It is shameful,
embarrassing, and unchristian. The LDS church would be better off if byu sports
ceased to exist.
@swizzyAh....the worn out and lame refrain of the utah
"fan", end BYU sports because we don't like them. It is an
interesting thing to see utah "fans" so conflicted between their church
membership and the hate they feel for one of the most important institutions of
their church. I'm glad I have no such conflict, I love everything about the
church and hate none of it.