"Civil rights are at the front regardless of rationality. " Okay, so what civil rights would the writer find irrational? What provisions
of the 1964 Civil Rights Act are irrational? What parts of the Voting Rights
Act are irrational? Was emancipation irrational? We have had a
long bloody struggle to attain some degree of equal rights. Let's not mess
things up now.
"Washington laid the foundation for a great nation. What are we doing to or
for it?"That last line is the most significant line of this
letter. Washington laid the foundation, realizing that most of the building was
yet to come. In the process we had to live many decades with part of our
population relegated to second class citizenship. Slave were, well, slaves and
as such, only counted as part of a full human being on things such as the
census. Women were denied the right to vote in the nation that proclaimed
itself as the land of the free. And religious rights were denied to many
including my ancestors who made their way to the west, beyond the borders of
this nation, so they could practice the religion of their choice.Many things have changes in the two centuries since Washington lived and, yes,
civil rights granted to all has made a difference in our lives. The troubling
issues surrounding civil rights have more to do with those who would deny them
than with those who would demand that they exist for all citizens. And so, yes
indeed, what are we doing for that?
A pathetic attempt to link expansion of civil rights for all people to moral
degradation. And this dog whistle to opponents of the growing movement of
people in Utah, and indeed in the entire country to legalize same sex marriage
is ridiculously disguised.Just say it. You just don't like
same sex marriage, and you are proud of your prejudice.
The correct quote is:“The character of a nation is determined by how
we treat the least of God's children.” It's a key
component of Social Justice.
"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and
irreconcilable hatreds than thsoe which spring from any other cause."-George Washington, 1792
The tone of this letter is reminiscent of letters written when laws banning
interracial marriage were over turned by the SCOTUS.
"George Washington stated that this country's success depends on the
use of religious and moral principles. "As a slave owner and the
wealthiest American President, he understood justification by religion to treat
other men and women poorly or as property, He may have fought so hard because he
had so much to loose.Although I'd thank him for what he accomplished,
to grant him this sainthood is misdirected."Civil rights are at
the front regardless of rationality." Correction Because of
Rationality."The laws of nature are considered obsolete."
Which Natural Laws?"Norms, even though they have
been proven best, are set aside because civil rights are easier to live by and
are now accepted by society." Oh the dread. civil rights
accepted by society.Good character has to be nurtured. It is not a
free gift. Desires, good and bad, come with the individual. Growing up is part
of character development. What one does with the unusual or unnatural desires is
the challenge of that individual.So Gays should just grow out of it,
and can't have good character?Your winning me over, with
reasoning like that?
Just another letter printed by the DN that misquotes a famous person.
Let's not forget that Washington as great a man as he was also owned slaves
and fathered children with some of those slaves. Was that moral? Who knows but
I think by todays standards we would see that as immoral. Please lets make sue
we are correct in our quotes like LDS Liberal has pointed out.
I remember when my elders said it was "unnatural" for blacks and whites
to mix, not to mention get married.
"Do unto others as you would have others do to you" may be one of the
most universal concepts, it is found in teachings and religious systems from
around the world. Treating others as humans, with dignity and kindness, is one
of the deepest foundation blocks of civilized society.Conservative
religion seems to interpret that simple maxim as: Do unto others who are the
same color, race, ethnicity, religion, creed, class, and political party as you
would want to be treated. If they aren't part of your insular tribe then
they don't deserve to be treated well." Often, at that point they
either quote scripture or an out of context statement by Washington or Jefferson
or Madison to justify their position.
The lack of morality in politics and Wall Street is far more detrimental to our
society than gay marriage.If two homosexuals decide to get married?
It has a near zero effect on our job opportunities and retirement.However, when corrupt activist judges decide that bribery is a form of free
speech? Or when corporations are ruled to be people?Or when the
President deregulates Wall Street?Or when we give tax break handouts to
corporations and subsidize dirty oil?Or when the President decides to bail
out banks who became too big to fail?Or when we're lied to so the
Vice President can start a war in Iraq and give handouts to Haliburton?Or
when Wall Street eats away my retirement because, "Greed is Good"?Or when 2 AGs put a for sale sign in their office?Those examples
of the deterioration of morality have direct and very real effects on our job
opportunities and retirement.Gay marriage won't ruin this
country. The greed, bribery as "free speech", and failed
"Reaganomics" certainly will.
You say, "Civil rights are at the front regardless of rationality."
What are you trying to say? Why don't you9 come out and say what you
really mean instead of hiding behind vague principles?I offer this:
I think we are actually better off than we were 30, 50, 75 or 100 years ago in
many ways. I think in many ways we are a better people. Conservativism is the
enemy of progress, and had our nation stuck with conservative principles, we
would be a third world nation, if even a nation at all.
Each generation always lements the lack of morality the coming generation,
usually with regards to its attitudes toward sex.Each generation
always views the previous generation with a lack of morality, usually with how
they treated people different from them.Our ideas and attitudes
change with each generation; the thing we must do is act and treat each other
the best we can with the information we have.We have made great
strides in treating men equally (removing slavery, equal rights of suffrage,
removing established racism and now our LGBT brothers and sisters) and I hope we
continue in that regard. It is important to remember that we cannot judge the
morals of the past with the morals of today, but we must see where we can
improve those.Sex has always been a strong driving force of our
humanity, and I don't believe we are more "immoral" we are just
more open about it now.
Good letter. Thanks for the courage to stand up for God's commandments as
well as put your name to it unlike the rest of us who hide behind pseudonyms.The pride cycle continues. We invent our own religions to suit our
preferences regardless of what God says. He will humble us as a nation.
The sky is falling the sky is falling!
@Sal – “We invent our own religions to suit our
preferences…”Indeed we do Sal… thanks for
reminding us of the anthropological truism.
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the
Christian religion."- George Washington
It used to be considered immoral to shut down the government and to refuse to
work with the President. But now anything goes! Now, one
political party can dedicate its entire purpose to making the President an
one-term President.To heck with our country! It used to
be immoral to place party and ideology purity ahead of the well-being of the
American people. But now, that has changed.I too, wish
we could go back in time. Back to a time when the Republican Party actually
worked with others, proposed ideas, and stood up for the country.Now, all they care about is shutting down the government, giving handouts to
those who bribed them, and hurting the middle-class.
@FreedomFighter41Provo, UTAgreed!It used to be
considered immoral to Shout Down others in Town Hall Civic meetings.It
used to be considered immoral to START Pre-emptive Wars of Offense without being
first being attacked.It used to be considered immoral to throw the sick,
needy and elderly out to the wolves.It used to be considered immoral to
constatnly pull Politics into Gospel Doctrine classes.It used to be
considered immoral to walk into shopping centers or State Legislation with
semi-automatic assault rilfes.It used to be considered immoral to Shout
Down the President of the united States in the State of th Union Address...
To "LDS Liberal" that isn't social justice. That is called
charity. Social Justice involves forcibly taking from one group and giving to
another. Tell us, according to LDS theology, who wanted to force you to be
good?To "Stormwalker" actually, that is the liberal
religion. Look at Rev. Wright or Al Sharpton. The Conservative religions say
come and join, we don't care about your background as long as you want to
participate and are willing to add to the group.To "The Real
Maverick" I hate to tell you this, but your rants are unfounded. Oil get
the same tax breaks as anybody else, Reaganomics gave us close to 25 years of
prosperity. Would you rather have carter economics and a return of the Misery
Index? Wall Street is more regulated now because with each
"deregulation" comes MORE regulation and scrutiny by the government.
You have a sitting President and VP that have lied about nearly everything since
taking office and you still support them. You didn't like Bush because he
was a Republican, not because of policies or "lies", the proof of that
is Obama who continues Bush policies and makes Bush look 100% honest by
Redshirt 1701 - I was willing to let you pass on the nonsense about Reaganomics
being responsible for 25 years of prosperity but then you told an even bigger
fib when you said "You have a sitting President and VP that have lied about
nearly everything since taking office and you still support them."How can you possibly make that claim with a straight face while also
considering the 8 years of the Chaney presidency? Yes the president told us
that under Obamacare we could keep our doctor if we liked them and then he had
to qualify that by saying we could keep them if they played by the same rules as
Obamacare. But there is still NO evidence of wrongdoing with the IRS, Benghazi
or any other republican manufactured scandal, only accusations. But he never
told us we would be welcomed as liberators in a land that continues to hate us
after we invested $1 trillion and 4800 of our bravest soldiers, not to mention
over 20,000 who survived, thanks to modern science, but are now permanently
disabled. He never told us the load of milarkey that got us into that war in the
Seems like the only morality conservatives care about is related to sex.
Figuratively spit on the poor (including the working poor)? The height of
morality to a "tea party" conservative.
To "ECR" you really should read more than the socialist/Liberal
propaganda that you usually read.The fact is that Reaganomics
wasn't even his idea. He got it from JFK. Read "John F. Kennedy on
taxes" on WND. It is all quotes from him about how Supply Side Economics
works.There are many Joint Economic Reports by the House that also
show how Supply Side Economics works.One telling article is
"Reaganomics Vs. Obamanomics: Facts And Figures" in Forbes. It is
filled with all sorts of data that shows just how bad Obamanomics is and how it
is destructive. It also shows how Reaganomics worked.Read "252
Examples of Obama’s Lies, Lawbreaking & Corruption" in Frontpage
Magazine. They have links and have documented most of Obama's biggest
lies.Obama won "Lie of the Year" for 2013 from Politifact.
The Washington Post in their biggest lies of the year for 2013 had 3 of
Obama's lies listed.From Fox News read "Many voters say
Obama lies to the country on important matters" where they found that 60% of
voters think Obama lies on important national matters.There is a
pattern of lies that Obama has, and the world knows it.
Thomas Jefferson knew....keep religion out of it, or we will degenerate into the
tribal feuds of the old world. As for gay marriage, no harm done. You're
going to have to get used to it.
Redshirt,Yes, Forbes, Fox News, and World Net Daily. That's
where I go for unbiased information...
Redshirt 1701 - I have to say that your list of references is somewhat suspect
with regard to being unbiased and fair.The website of Frontpage
Magazine has bold text that says "Inside Every Liberal is a Totalitarian
Screaming to Get Out" It's safe to say they could use some Dale
Carnagie advice in how to win friends and ...Fox News' already
biased opinion was bolstered in the Freudian slip by Anchorman David Asman in an
interview with former Senator Trent Lott saying "So, Senator, if we should
have done it and if we had the votes to do it in the Senate -- if you guys in
the Republican …" Oops! Somebody let the cat out of the bag.Regarding Politifact;s issue with the Lies of the Year, they also wrote
about the Republicans reaction that "Republicans seem to have changed their
minds about PolitiFact, considering we gave past Lie of the Year awards to GOP
lines about "death panels" (2009) and the health care law being "a
government takeover of health care" (2010)."Peter Ferrara,
who wrote the Forbes article supports privatizing Social Security. Imagine how
that would have worked out in the crash of 2008.
your right Robert but yet we get told we need to be tolerant of unsound ideas of
social policy that are based on mystic instead of the known facts. I am glade to
see you have embraced science and forgone social prejudices against the LGBT
@ RedskirtOh boy! If Fox News says so then it must be true!The funny thing about repubs is that they can't see the obvious bias from
their sources. In fact, factchecker eve fly conducted a study. Fox News told
more lies than both cnn and msnbc combined. Studies from non-partisan sources
have shown that Fox News viewers are typically the worst informed and out of
touch. Redskirt's comments only confirm these studies' accuracy.Furthermore, we need not rehash economic philosophy to see what works
and what doesn't. I'm pretty sure your previous Reaganomics speak for
themselves: a dying middle class, increased wealth inequality, and a crashed
economy in 2008.No amount of tax cuts for the richies and
middle-east wars will change what has proven to be a complete and utter failure.
The title is grammatically incorrect. It should say Societal Values.
@Robert Foster;What is "unnatural" to you is perfectly
natural for me. What is abnormal to you is perfectly normal for me.It's time for you to stop judging others without removing the humongous
beam from your own eyes.Bigotry and discrimination are not
"moral values". If anything, they qualify as 100% immoral.
If a state is judged by the moral character of its selected leaders, what does
the indictment of the two AG's say about Utah? Were not they raised with
good "moral" virtues? Seems to me the bigger problem of
virtue in this country is not same sex marriage or birth control. The problem
is greed, lack of respect for provable fact and the arrogance of the
"righteous" conservative religionists.
It is clear that our country is degrading morally. It is the secular influence
of no values, no absolutes, all grey area, no judgements, ect. This in not new
in human history. It has happened over many periods where great civilizations
fell. The signs were always the loosening of moral values leading to hedonistic
lifestyles. This is all so clear to anyone who has observed the past. I wonder
how many people believe that somehow the American experience will be immune to
the same path? I'm sure all the others did too. To sum it up though,
"Signs of the Times".
Redshirt1701 - You have fallen into the standard conservative approach by
calling everyone who disagrees with you a communist or a socialist. Look I
believe in capitalism, true capitalism, but I also believe we are a nation of
people and we should act like it. So when the Walton family has $152B in assets
and Walmart makes a profit of over $15B per year, I expect them to pay their
employees enough to not have to collect food stamps or live in subsidized
housing. I expect them to not create a bunch of "takers", as
conservatives would call them. If Walmart's working conditions create the
need for more government services while the Walton family sits a fortune worth
more the GDP of some countries, why shouldn't they pay more in taxes?I'm certain the Walton family contributes a good portion of their
income to worthy causes but shouldn't their first concern be with the
people who help create their wealth? That's the kind of country I want to
live, where people do an honest day's work and make an honest living,
enough to support themselves and their families. That's all.
To "ECR", "KJB1", and "The Real Maverick" thank you for
proving me correct. None of you can find anything that isn't written by a
communist that proves supply side economics was a failure.You have
fallen into the lowest form of liberal come-backs. You have to resort to
attacking the source without actually being able to say anything meaningful
against the topic at hand.What is your solution to supply side
economics? Communism, socialism, government control of how much money you have?
Your solutions are failures.Write again when you can do more than
attack the source of the facts that prove you wrong.To "ECR"
you don't really believe in capitalism then if you expect them to pay their
employees more. Nobody forces the no skill workers with families to work for
Wal-Mart.The Waltons pay pleanty of taxes either directly through
their INCOME or else through the profits of their company.The
Waltons run Wal-Mart similar to the DI. They use their business to give people
skills so they can get better jobs. The get out of poverty because of skills
gained at Wal-Mart. Isn't it better to get them skills?
@Redshirt" None of you can find anything that isn't written by a
communist that proves supply side economics was a failure."Numbers are sufficient to show supply side economics failed. Just look at
wealth inequality in the US, it was steady for several decades and then starting
in the 80s it just got worse and worse the next three decades. Median income has
barely increased in 30 years.
To "Frozen Fractals" yes, look at the income inequality. It keeps
getting worse the further away we go from Capitalism. Your ilk through their
efforts to make things more "fair" are only setting up the US to be like
every communist or heavily socialist nation. There will be the wealthy and the
poor, and few if any left in the middleclass.In the past 5 years
since Obama has been tinkering with the economy the average worker's salary
has DROPPED by over $5,000 per year. That will not change while government is
micromanaging businesses.But that is just a side note. The fact is
that you and your ilk cannot prove that supply side economics is bad. Your
latest post shows that as you start with one statement then go off on an
unrelated topic. I call that the #2 way that Liberals concede defeat when
dealing with facts.
I am going to say our society has made progress.Women can now own
property, vote and hold political office. They now have every opportunity
legally as males.African-Americans now own property instead of being
property, vote, hold political office and have more economic and political
opportunities than ever.We are less accepting as a society of
racism, sexism, and bullying. Are we perfect? No, but I believe heading in the
I am gay, and you know what, I am not an immoral person! I believe in God. I
always have! As far as the laws of nature, homosexuality is found in all areas!
People should get their facts right! People have prejudices and they take their
negative feelings and turn them into beliefs! To assume that God condemns gay
people is an arrogant belief and is certainly not true! as a matter of fact,
information about gay people is out there more than it has been. Even the LDS
Church admitted that we don't choose it! So, if we didn't choose it,
it is safe to say that our creator had something to do with it! Hitler
degraded and put down the Jews. He forced his horrible beliefs on everyone and
look what it did! What is done to gay people is the same! They take their belief
in God and with that belief, they come up with some really nasty things, I
should know because I have to live with those belief, none of them are true! You
see, people have degraded us to the point where our opinion, about ourselves, is
Duty, What is my duty. My one and only duty is to be the kind of guy I expect me
to be. I have high standards. No one can get angrier at me than I can get at mt
self. That's my duty to reach my expectations. Maybe mom's exceptions
of me got through to me.
@redshirt. The right thinks there was prosperity from Reagan but in reality it
was the giant debt bubble that fueled the growth of the economy not an increase
from wages. If you took away the easy credit our economy would tank
because structurally our economy is not sound. As far as supply side
economics it is flawed. Demand not supply is what fuels the economy.
Children Exposed To Religion Have Difficulty Distinguishing Fact From Fiction,
Study FindsYoung children who are exposed to religion have a hard
time differentiating between fact and fiction, according to a new study
published in the July issue of Cognitive Science.Researchers presented 5-
and 6-year-old children from both public and parochial schools with three
different types of stories -- religious, fantastical and realistic –- in
an effort to gauge how well they could identify narratives with impossible
elements as fictional.The study found that, of the 66 participants,
children who went to church or were enrolled in a parochial school were
significantly less able than secular children to identify supernatural elements,
such as talking animals, as fictional.
Would Redshirt consider 1950s era United States as a Socialist nation? No? So then what's wrong with going back to the taxation and economic
policy which helped to bring about the greatest economy and middle-class this
world has ever seen?What is wrong with getting back to common
sense?The current nonsense of deregulation, banks too big to fail,
and tax cuts for the rich is a proven disaster! Get back to the
taxation and economic policy that worked so well for us for so long! Junk the
economic policy which has only damaged this country. Time to wake up
Reddy and smell the hot chocolate!
If the good ol' days were so good, they would not have changed.
The primary degradation of morality in today's society Mr. Foster is
perfectly exemplified by your judgmental letter and your veiled condemnation of
fellow human beings. It is the unmitigated vanity of those who claim to speak on
behalf of the almighty with derogatory language designed to separate, divide and
weaken us as a culture that lies at the heart of our national illness. The
continued striking out at that wedge is a misuse of all the would be holy and a
What have you done for your country? You do not have to serve in the military to
contribute. You can be of service by being a good neighbor and a father. As
simple as it seems this could be the single greatest contribution to America we
have. Teaching values and good citizenship to your children is priceless. You
could make no greater contribution to this country than being a good neighbor,
father or a friend.