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Dick Harmon: Big 12 not looking to expand, but BYU's a candidate in waiting

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  • wendell provo, UT
    July 19, 2014 5:17 p.m.

    Nice article Dick, and I agree with much of what you wrote, but you made one mistake that i believe needs correcting - BYU's victory over Texas in 1988 was not led by Ty Detmer. Sean Covey was the starter and winning quarterback in that game although Detmer did play some.

  • Swanfam Sandy, UT
    July 19, 2014 5:20 p.m.

    Dick, that is a great case for inclusion. I think the changing college landscape is going to provide BYU with some great opportunities. I would like to be a football only member of the Big 12 and keep our other sports in the WCC. That being said, I would hope for several home and home series in basketball with the Big12 if we were a football only member.

  • SLC BYU Fan Salt Lake City, UT
    July 19, 2014 5:49 p.m.

    The bottom line is, there was more resistance in BYU governance than any Big 12 president expected when it became obvious in September 2011 that Texas A&M was bolting for the SEC, and the league would be in media contractual default. BYU made the most brand-size sense going into the replacement discussions, but with Colorado already gone to the Pac-12 the geographical oddity already was apparent. But the concern expressed by some of the brethren that "BYU should not leave the smaller religious schools of the WCC in a potential contractual lurch" was what shot that idea down more than any Sunday play contractual issues. While West Virginia proved to be another "odd" geographical fit to the league after Missouri followed Texas A&M out the door to the SEC, BYU would have made good "cultural sense" with the addition of TCU to complement Baylor.

    Sadly the best option available to BYU is to renew their relationship with the MWC & assist Utah State in building their brand up, much the way they did Utah for 4+ decades in the WAC/MWC alignment, or they could just drop football & stay in the WCC.

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    July 19, 2014 5:52 p.m.

    It's only a matter of time before the Big 12 and BYU hook up.

  • Henry Drummond San Jose, CA
    July 19, 2014 5:59 p.m.

    This is probably the most comprehensive and fact based article on expansion I've read in a long time. Nicely done.

    It sounds to me that the landscape has changed somewhat. Everyone thought that there would be six conferences with sixteen teams each. That was the ticket to greater income. Somewhere along the line expansion reached the point of diminishing returns and the "tree house effect" has set in. The P5 isn't interested in cutting the pie up into more pieces. Maybe BYU and Notre Dame can come up with something creative to form a sixth power conference.

  • xert Santa Monica, CA
    July 19, 2014 6:20 p.m.

    Monologue from my One Man Show--Bronco. No Perfect Exit.

    Bronco
    (Speaks to no one in particular.)

    Hey everyone! I said it before and I'll say it again! We would seriously look at a bid from the Big 12!
    I said it, and I'm not sorry I said it! In fact I'll say it again! We would absolutely consider a Big 12 invite.
    (Cue wind sound and tumbling tumbleweed background projection...)
    Hey--you think I'm backing down from my statement? Oh, no no no! I am not backing down from saying that I would welcome an invite from the Big 12! And we'd give a good look see and seriously consider it.
    (Cue cricket sounds.)
    Hey, Big 12--don't you dare think I was kidding when I said we'd be a good fit for the Big 12. I meant it and I'll mean it again this time next year. We would be tickled pink to have an invite to join the Big 12 and we would seriously consider it. Did I say seriously consider? I meant we would accept it! Right now!
    I'm serious.
    (Time passes.)
    Is anyone out there! Hello!
    (Lights fade.)

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    July 19, 2014 6:37 p.m.

    Don't care.

    Independence is great!

  • Hoosier87 American Fork, UT
    July 19, 2014 7:20 p.m.

    The reality is, BYU does not NEED to be in the Big12.

    With the new college football playoffs, especially when it expands to 8 teams (in a few years), I think BYU will have as easy a route as if they were in the Big12. They'll need to go undefeated either way.

    The bigger concern is if the Big 5 decide to break off from the NCAA and do their own thing. That could be disastrous for EVERYONE not in a Big 5 conference.

    As for inclusion into the Big 5 - clearly BYU belongs - the numbers speak for themselves. What an excellent article.

    I've said it many times (and challenge our Ute friends to refute this), if Utah can get invited, then clearly BYU should be!

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    July 19, 2014 7:35 p.m.

    As the Utes have discovered, there is a huge difference between being competitive a few times a year with Big 12 caliber opponents and being competitive every week.

    Also, BYU's great winning percentage has been largely built on competition of a much lower caliber than is found in the Big 12.

    I think BYU is a good candidate for the Big 12, but a dose of reality is warranted to avoid getting too excited about the possibilities.

  • Joey K Sandy, UT
    July 19, 2014 7:36 p.m.

    Yea, and I'm interested in dating Gisele Bundchen. It doesn't mean it will happen.

  • David Centerville, UT
    July 19, 2014 7:38 p.m.

    I like Drummond's question: "Maybe BYU and Notre Dame can come up with something creative to form a sixth power conference".

    Could BYU raid the PAC and get Colorado, Arizona, U of U, Boise along with Notre Dame & Navy? That could be a nice core. It might give the U of U a restart opportunity, rather than to remain the PAC doormat. There would need to be additional teams of course. Any suggestions? What about LSU? Others?

  • BYU Joe MISSION VIEJO, CA
    July 19, 2014 7:55 p.m.

    When I was 17 I blew out the birth candles on my cake and made a wish - I wished for a swimming pool full of cute cheerleaders - of course. I looked out the window and nothing. Fast forward 30 years - One day I looked out the window of my house and my pool was full of cute cheerleader - All my daughters friends. Great. Wish granted 30 years later. And then too late to do me any good.

    Independence feels a lot that way - we blew out the candles and made a wish that everything would work. Unfortunately it may take thirty years to have our wish granted. Once we get there not sure the wish will be as good as we excepted.

  • Ronald Uharriet SWun City, Ca.
    July 19, 2014 7:56 p.m.

    New Power 6 Conference

    ND-----------------Army
    TCU----------------Navy
    Bailor-------------- Air Force
    BYU----------------Citadel
    SMU----------------Utah
    Presbyterian--------- ?

    Everyone has their price.
    ND would be the most expensive
    Everyone else would fall in place.
    Pay the price. Make it happen.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    July 19, 2014 8:05 p.m.

    ESPN’s Brett McMurphy, who is an Oklahoma State graduate...

    “I want to be clear that I’ve been told multiple times by multiple sources the Big 12 isn’t interested in BYU or adding any other non-Power 5 schools for that matter,” he said."

    Well, Mr. McMurphy, here's the thing you and the decision makers in the Big 12 need to understand...it does not matter how many times you say it or the number and credibility of your sources; byu and it's fans won't listen. Hence, you should expect the articles, the questions, and the begging to continue unabated.

    It's not just the Big 12, either Brett. Every time Larry Scott comes to town to attend Pac-12 games, he is pestered with questions about expanding the Pac-12. The persistent groveling from byu, its fans, and local media is embarrassing. If you think its annoying fielding the same never ending questions from byu, try being in a conference with them.

    If the Big 12 expands, the new conference "partners" should be chosen with great care and deliberation.

  • Big 12 Call Yet? Ogden, UT
    July 19, 2014 8:08 p.m.

    The Big 12 and Pac 12 went through similar scenarios in deciding whether byU and Utah were worthy of an invitation.

    Both leagues were at 10 and neither were able to have a conference championship game.

    Both wanted a conference championship game.

    The Big 12 evaluated whether byu added enough value to justify adding them in order to get a title game. The big 12 has concluded time and time again that byu does NOT add enough value to justify adding them.

    The Pac 12 decided Utah did add enough value to justify adding us.

    The Pac 12 is setting record numbers for revenues and amounts distributed.

    All parties involved appear quite happy(Pac 12, Big 12, Utah). Only byu is not.

    65 power conference teams.

    And byU will never be one of us!

    If I was a fan of a mid-major I'd be very worried - the divide is growing between the big boys and the mid majors.

    We're creating our own division and leaving the mid majors behind.

  • Big 12 Call Yet? Ogden, UT
    July 19, 2014 8:14 p.m.

    So byu just needs to fix the geography problem?

    LOL!

    Good luck! I can't wait to continue to watch byu's pleas go unheard by the Big 12.

    Yes, the Big 12 is aware you want it. And so far they're not calling.

  • AFCoug Colorado Springs, CO
    July 19, 2014 8:52 p.m.

    If money is the main concern for the Big 12 why not bring BYU in under their current TV contract and see how things go until 2018 when BYU's contract with ESPN expires? I'm sure there are legalities that can make this happen similar to U of U getting only partial revenue from the PAC 12 its first seasons. If the Big 12 still did not want to pay BYU in 2018 BYU would be able to renegotiate its own contract with ESPN and likely increase the amount of money it received. Currently word is BYU makes about $5M a year from it's TV contract. If BYU were a member of the big 12 in name but not in money I'd be willing to bet it could make 2-3 times that each year and bring added exposure to the Big 12 and it's teams. BYUtv could also negotiate and show non football game sports on it's channel making more money for BYU and the Big 12. Imagine baseball and soccer players from other countries watching a Big 12 tournament on BYUtv in South America. Big 12 would get the best recruits in those sports nationally. This would help BYU revenue compensate for the football dollars.

  • SLC BYU Fan Salt Lake City, UT
    July 19, 2014 9:15 p.m.

    @SwanFam There is no way the Big 12 will take a football only member. The ACC was willing to make a basketball & other sports deal with Notre Dame, the Big 12 wasn't as accommodating and wanted the entire enchilada, which is why the chips fell where they did. In doing so the ACC was able to keep the Big Ten from further raiding North Carolina, Duke & Virginia back in the fall of 2012 holding their only defection to Maryland.

    The WCC isn't a very good long-term fit for BYU, and I only see that relationship prolonged if BYU were to do the unthinkable and drop their football program later this decade if ESPN wishes to not extend or further enhance their deal. Look for BYU to reunite with the MWC by late next year or early 2016 when some media $$$ numbers are more readily available. Tom Holmoe & Kevin Worthen will hold out as long as possible before accepting any deals.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    July 19, 2014 9:30 p.m.

    I blame Chris Hill for these articles.

    Cougar summers are spent on fantasy pieces. For the last several years, the articles have centered around "Will THIS be the year that BYU beats Utah?" By taking away the rivalry matchup, writers have had to turn to another source of fantasy material -- BYU and the Big 12.

  • NorCalCougarFan&Alum Elk Grove, CA
    July 19, 2014 9:32 p.m.

    To be quite honest, my personal preference would be for BYU to belong to a conference with universities that have unique missions. My dream conference would include the following teams: BYU, Notre Dame, Navy, Air Force, Army, Boston College, USC, Stanford, TCU, Texas A&M, Baylor, and Duke. All of the latter universities fall outside the realm of your typical state universities. They also are respected academic institutions, offer more than just academics, and have some sort of code of conduct.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    July 19, 2014 9:45 p.m.

    Nice propaganda... But the B12 isn't listening.

    If BYU offered value to the B12 there would have already been an invitation extended.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    July 19, 2014 9:49 p.m.

    Comprehensive article, yet no new information. If BYU joined the Big 12, they would be on TV less than they are now. I wonder how fans would feel about that.

  • idablu Idaho Falls, ID
    July 19, 2014 10:01 p.m.

    I have to think if BYU would just WIN in football, everything would fall into place. If the Cougars went undefeated or suffered only 1 loss this season, their stock would go up significantly and would be extremely hard to ignore. Alas, even with their relatively favorable schedule this upcoming season, an undefeated season is extremely difficult. But it really is that simple. If BYU wants to be taken seriously among the P5, they have to win the big games with P5 opponents. If they do that, I am quite certain the future will be bright for BYU Sports.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 19, 2014 10:13 p.m.

    From his perch in Tulsa, having covered BYU in Provo many times, Jimmie Tramel knows BYU is used to being the alpha dog of the WAC and MWC. Big 12 inclusion would take that away.

    ------

    TCU and Utah would argue TCU and Utah took that away in the MWC.

  • Ironman SANTA CLARA, UT
    July 19, 2014 10:14 p.m.

    Dick: The Board of Trustees of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints calls the shots for BYU, not the football coach or the AD.

    Many of the Big 12 teams practice and play on Sunday. BYU teams do not play on Sunday, except for the rare Saturday night game that runs into Sunday morning.

    The Big 12 is not going to accept BYU for football only, and the Big 12 is not going to change its Sunday policy to accommodate BYU. Likewise, the Board of Trustees is not going to change its Sunday policy.

    These articles make for great press and conversation, but you need to get over it. BYU will never play in the Big 12 conference.

  • Go Big Blue!!! Bountiful, UT
    July 19, 2014 10:47 p.m.

    It is more likely that the Big 12 would steal Arizona and Arizona State than go after the y and another school.

  • DEW Cougars Sandy, UT
    July 19, 2014 10:58 p.m.

    For a long time many of you guys thinking BYU will join big12. What if, PAC12 calling which I wouldn't mind. Anyway, I am fine as Independent for now and let B12 keep all their pie.

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 19, 2014 11:10 p.m.

    Printed evidence of a total disconnect between some BYU fans and reality!

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    July 19, 2014 11:11 p.m.

    It will happen soon and it will be awesome to. Want some Bcs busters? Just wait till were there then you'll see Bcs busting all the time.

  • Outside-View Federal Way, WA
    July 19, 2014 11:12 p.m.

    BYU cant consistently compete in the BIG 12 and I am not sure that the Church wants to accept the problems (salaries of coaches, recruiting issues etc) of trying to compete againts Oklahoma and Texas etc.

    I think the best that BYU can hope for is a scheduling agreement with both the Pac 12 and Big 12.

    I expect something will happen within 3 years.

  • MapleDon Springville, UT
    July 19, 2014 11:37 p.m.

    BYU does NOT bring enough to the table to be considered for discussion. And that's the way it should be for the rest of us. Quit offering false hopes. I don't know who's driving this, but Harmon is relentlessly making up news.

    Move on.

  • kaysvillecougar KAYSVILLE, UT
    July 19, 2014 11:39 p.m.

    Great synopsis Dick. Well said. I don't understand the level of angst and insecurity from many of my fellow cougar fans. I love independence and many other cougar fans do too. The drawbacks to joining the BIG 12 fully start with travel, and then consider those locations in the winter. I love the WCC in many ways. Maybe we should win a championship or two in basketball before we feel like we're too good for the conference. There seems to be a lot of mutual respect, which we never saw in the MWC. Speaking of .. . . my fellow cougar fan in SLC, I can't disagree with you any more about going back to the MWC. Do you really want to travel to Laramie again? Seriously! And where in BYU's mission statement does it mention "building up" another utah school like Utah State or the U of U. I never knew that was one of BYU's purposes. I agree with Tom Holmoe that the sky is not falling. Currently there is no need to join a conference, but we all understand that could change quickly. He's done a great job of positioning us if opportunity knocks.

  • Wayne Rout El Paso, TX
    July 19, 2014 11:40 p.m.

    KNYU. is the reason it has not happened and why it will not happen.

  • BYU DUDE Provo, UT
    July 19, 2014 11:45 p.m.

    Dick & Brandon ,

    The best journalism on BYU inclusion in the BIG 12 I have ever read , Clear concise and well done thanks for the research.

    I loved FuriousMonkees Video , it points out what most people don't know and that BYU has beat Texas & Oklahoma Six of the last Seven times they have played.

  • kaysvillecougar KAYSVILLE, UT
    July 20, 2014 12:08 a.m.

    @ BYUfaninSLC, I really don't know where you and others come up with the idea that BYU would drop football. Really. It's profitable and certainly is the most visible aspect to the university. This doesn't diminish the real purposes of the university but to get rid of football. Wow.

  • JD Las Vegas, NV
    July 20, 2014 12:37 a.m.

    Dick, you forgot a couple of pretty good facts that are missing from your pretty desperate attempt to paint the picture pretty. It's never going to happen.

    BYU has never played in a top premiere bowl game so they haven't ever won a big bowl game. (meanwhile Utah has played in two and won two)

    BYU has never gone undefeated (let alone done it twice)

    BYU greatest glory day of football happened 30 years ago, repeat 30 years ago, that is a very long time ago, try three decades. Whereas Utah's Sugar Bowl victory was in 2009, less than 5 years ago.

    You can take out the word Utah in this comment and substitute the word with "TCU" or "Boise State" and get the same facts. On the food chain, Provo is not remotely ready or on deck.

  • GrayGrantham PHX, AZ
    July 20, 2014 12:56 a.m.

    BYU joining the Big 12 seemingly will never go away until BYU joins another P5 Conference or the Big 12 expands without BYU.

    Big 12 needs Championship Game? Not so fast. In the Big 12 nobody gets away from playing the top teams in the league (SEC) nobody gets an 8 game softball schedule (SEC) Since going to a round robin schedule the conference championship has always been decided on the last day of the season either in a head to head game or a combination of 2 or 3 games.

    As attractive as BYU thinks they are. You have to remember there is a lot of unseen disdain for sharing $20-$25 million a year with the Mormon church.

    The best I can see happening for BYU is an "Associate Member" with a round robin schedule against all Big 12 schools (Football Only) BYU would get 5 home games against Big 12 schools (and presumably the broadcast revenue that goes along with them) and they would have a defacto Power 5 Schedule, and become a defacto Power 5 Team.

    The Big 12 in turn would gain 1 game for every Big 12 member against a Power 5 School. (By virtue of BYU's 10 game Big 12 schedule).

  • JustGordon Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 20, 2014 1:34 a.m.

    Dick is wishing and hoping and trying to give the blue faithful some slim hope to cling to. Meanwhile the ugly reality is that the school cannot bring enough revenue to the table to offset the drop in revenue adding two more teams would mean to the Big 12 minus 2. As TV revenues increase in the future the amount of money will increase making it even more financially impossible. Add to this financial reality is the question of whether the Big 12 minus 2 wants to admit another "Texas" who has its own independent TV station and is seemingly unwilling to share revenue on an equal basis with all. Thirdly, there is the real question of whether 10 or 11 other schools will want to modify their non money making team schedules to accommodate non Sunday play. Where teams are paired, it would require more travel time and the added expense and missing more classes is a serious consideration.

    The Y may be waiting in the wings, but I fear she missed the last train several years ago in a vain attempt to be like Notre Dame, a school that soon will play a large percentage of their football games in the ACC.

  • GoRed WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    July 20, 2014 2:12 a.m.

    Very funny post, xert!

  • Brent T. Aurora CO Aurora, CO
    July 20, 2014 2:15 a.m.

    No partner? The Big 12 could get back into Colorado with either Colorado State or Air Force; in basketball would think the Pit and New Mexico would be attractive. Maybe poach Boise State.

  • JMT Springville, UT
    July 20, 2014 7:46 a.m.

    The realignment craze of a few years back was about a college football cartel. The BCS Conferences were alarmed with BYU, TCU, Utah and Boise St upsetting the apple cart. Now that 2 of the 4 have been assimilated, the threat gone, no need for future realignments. Utah and TCU really made a bad decision.

    Maybe, as the article notes, the Big 12 needs 2 more teams for a conference championship. Maybe.

  • Taysom4Heisman Heber City, UT
    July 20, 2014 7:48 a.m.

    This was an outstanding article.

    All of the opinions in this article had facts behind it to back it up. There were no assumptions or blue-goggled statements.

    A lot of people wonder why Bronco has been trying to say that BYU should be in the Big 12 when the Big 12 has clearly stated that they don't want to expand.

    They say Bronco is dumb for doing that. But it's actually the smartest thing he could do.

    Think about it. If Bronco stays quiet and just acts like he's content with Independence, then we aren't on the Big 12's radar nearly as much when they do want to expand.

    I would rather talk about the Big 12 a little early so that we are on their mind when they want to expand.

    The worst thing we can do is be quiet until the Big 12 looks to expand and then say, "Wait! We want to be in the Big 12! Pick us!"

    That's not very likely to work. It will be too little too late.

    Bronco, good job for getting out there earlier rather than later.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 20, 2014 7:52 a.m.

    Wow! Harmon and the DNews can't stop flogging a dead horse.

    While it might sell papers to, and stoke the egos of the Y faithful/hopeful, it is unseemly. This is not 'Field Of Dreams'--even if you keep talking about it, they still won't come to invite.

  • Hobbes Saint George, UT
    July 20, 2014 7:55 a.m.

    MyPerspective
    Look how groveling paid off for Utah.

    SoonerUte
    I agree. Maybe we could use a good fantasy piece about how the Utes will win some games in the Pac-12.

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 20, 2014 7:55 a.m.

    This question was asked on cougarboard
    +Jul 19, 2014 - 6:51pm

    Do you think Utah would leave the P12 if a B12 invite came with BYU?"

    The PAC-12 is truly the "Conference of Champions". It is rated second as a football conference. Along with the Big 10 - it is the highest rated athletic/academic conference. All members are within approx. 700 miles of SLC. Members are treated incredibly fairly.
    On the other hand:
    Consider this: Colorado, Texas A&M, Nebraska, and Missouri couldn't wait to leave the Big 12 and get away from the prima donna - Texas. Locations, locations, locations.
    So to answer the question would we leave the PAC-12 for the Big 12 if an invite came with another Prima Donna, BYU?
    The answer is not only no; but no!

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2014 8:03 a.m.

    Hoosier87
    American Fork, UT

    "I've said it many times (and challenge our Ute friends to refute this), if Utah can get invited, then clearly BYU should be!"

    Here's the part that byu fans either simply don't get or refuse to acknowledge...Utah spent 4-5 decades implementing an unwavering strategy that has brought respect and value to the university outside of sports. In that same timeframe, byu's strategy was sports, sports, and sports. Today, Utah is a member of the elite. byu? Just another institution that has sports programs.

    NorCalCougarFan&Alum
    Elk Grove, CA

    "To be quite honest, my personal preference would be for BYU to belong to a conference with universities that have unique missions...respected academic institutions, offer more than just academics, and have some sort of code of conduct."

    Based on your definition of "unique missions," you want to be in the Pac-12. Unique missions: Check. Respected academic institutions: Check. More than just academics: Check. "Some sort of code of conduct: Check. The funny part is...byu doesn't qualify for the unique missions of the Pac-12.

    The only "unique" thread running through the universities in your list is that they are all private institutions.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2014 8:09 a.m.

    @ David

    We're already at the party, and getting paid a ridiculous sum. There is zero chance Utah or CU leaves the PAC.

  • Oh Really? HERRIMAN, UT
    July 20, 2014 8:23 a.m.

    BYU's travel partner and international reach equivalent would be Air Force.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2014 8:37 a.m.

    SLC BYU Fan
    Salt Lake City, UT

    "Sadly the best option available to BYU is to renew their relationship with the MWC & assist Utah State in building their brand up, much the way they did Utah for 4+ decades in the WAC/MWC alignment..."

    byu built up Utah's "brand?" You can't be serious. Where in the world do you get the idea that byu has ever done anything for Utah and Utah St? byu has always been and will always be about byu (themselves).

    Show this board a list of ways that byu built up Utah's (and Utah State's) brand.

  • IndeMak South Jordan, UT
    July 20, 2014 8:50 a.m.

    Let's put BYU on our "waiting list". LOL

  • CKS007 Clearfield, UT
    July 20, 2014 8:52 a.m.

    Wow, yet another article about BYU and it's dreams to join the Big 12. At this rate we will have 2-3 more articles discussing the "Possibility" before the football season starts. Yes past history is good, yes independence isn't as cracked up as you thought it would be. Can't you find some real sports news to cover?

  • Robert Johnson Sunland, CA
    July 20, 2014 9:05 a.m.

    As a big Utah Fan...I am not fan of Byu...however, I would love to see ByU get into the Big 12. It would be great for the State of Utah. Being in the Pac12 is awesome. We get to play big programs every day of the week. We no longer have to deal with a season of Idaho States, Wyomings, etc. From a Ute fan....here's hoping that BYU gets an invite soon!

  • JapanCougar Apo, AP
    July 20, 2014 9:21 a.m.

    @ Big 12 Call yet?
    Please stop speaking in the first person plural when referring to the PAC12. We(human kind) are tired of it. We appreciate your ability to read minds and give insight on events in which you were not involved, but unless you are Larry Scott secretly revealing your hatred for BYU, we would prefer that you begin couching your conjectures using the first person singular.

    Within certain academic circles there exists significant bias. Those who work in these circles will readily admit this. Whether or not bias came into play in considering BYU, we'll never know. However, I (first person singular) believe looking at BYU as if it were a Republican-party-sponsored university is the best way to describe the lens through which many in the administration of the PAC12 see BYU.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2014 9:23 a.m.

    Hobbes
    Saint George, UT

    "MyPerspective
    Look how groveling paid off for Utah."

    Are you serious? So, in your view you see the continuous stream of articles in local media making a case on behalf of byu, a head football coach going to Big 12 media outlets to plead for byu, and an AD who personally meets with the SEC and ACC AD's to convince them that byu is P5 caliber, as being the same groveling Utah did? That's what you think Utah did? You think Utah debased themselves like that?

    Here's the difference Hobbes...Utah was invited to the Pac-10, they didn't invite themselves.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    July 20, 2014 9:39 a.m.

    David
    Centerville, UT
    I like Drummond's question: "Maybe BYU and Notre Dame can come up with something creative to form a sixth power conference".

    Could BYU raid the PAC and get Colorado, Arizona, U of U, Boise along with Notre Dame & Navy? That could be a nice core. It might give the U of U a restart opportunity, rather than to remain the PAC doormat. There would need to be additional teams of course. Any suggestions? What about LSU? Others?

    _______

    Will never ever happen. Why would any P5 team you mentioned leave to start a new conference for less money?

  • ET Bass Idaho Falls, ID
    July 20, 2014 9:52 a.m.

    I really love how utahn fawns flock to BYU articles. Thought you had moved on!? Just because you got married first, doesn't keep you from being the little brother.

  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2014 10:01 a.m.

    to Swanfan, Just the fax, Mormon Ute, Dick Harmon, etc...

    If the members that currently make up the B12 were not upset to see CU, Mizzou, & Nebraska go; why would they add someone further away??

    They will attempt to readd (i.e. SWC) Arkansas, SMU, & perhaps Texas A & M before byu.

  • GK Willington Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2014 10:04 a.m.

    re: SoonerUte

    "Comprehensive article, yet no new information. If BYU joined the Big 12, they would be on TV less than they are now. I wonder how fans would feel about that."

    I'd be thrilled.

    Go Utes!

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    July 20, 2014 10:11 a.m.

    Two years ago BYU had their chance to get into the Big 12 and they let it slipped away. The invite was all but in Tom Holmoe's hand, then BYU started getting all demanding. The invite was torn up, the Big 12's legal counsel famously called BYU "weird", and the rest is history.

    If BYU fans are waiting for that Big 12 invite to come....well, it already came. And went.

    This story is only being kept alive by a few BYU media types.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2014 10:14 a.m.

    JapanCougar
    Apo, AP

    LOL...very funny post. Well done.

    byu is clearly the victim of a huge well orchestrated conspiracy. Yes...always the victim.

  • DrUte Woods Cross, UT
    July 20, 2014 10:31 a.m.

    So it sounds like the consensus is: Economics & Geography.

    Not religious affiliation, not Sunday play, not BYU tv, yada yada yada.

    So it's --- Simple.

    Just change the economic & geographic conditions by (1) consistently beating every P5 school on the map; & (2) move Provostan to Dallastan.

    Some pretty big hurdles.

    And the B12 apparently isn't hiring right now anyway.

    No te preocupes, we're all still searching for cures for cancer, Alzheimer's, and Parkinson's, and those efforts aren't likely to stop either.

    In the meantime, it IS getting to be Time For Football.

    Go Utes!!

  • toosmartforyou Farmington, UT
    July 20, 2014 10:32 a.m.

    Great job, Mr. Harmon. You've given the utsies something to talk about rather than assessing their own pathetic non-bowl attending football team that is a perennial doormat in the PAC 11 + 1. We all know Utah was chosen because the PAC needed 12, Colorado already accepted, and the 5 teams in the Big 12 told Larry to go pound sand.

    I'm OK with Independence. At some point, the international broadcasting capabilities of BYU will be recognized and sought after. It will happen.

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    July 20, 2014 10:38 a.m.

    whoami

    "The PAC-12 is truly the "Conference of Champions". It is rated second as a football conference."

    BCS National Championships
    Big 12 - 1
    PAC 12 - 0

    National Championships in the Last 20 Years
    Big 12 - 4
    PAC 12 - 2

    Consensus (AP and Coaches) National Championships won by a PAC team other than USC

    NONE!

    Washington shared a championship with Miami in 1991
    Colorado (as a member of the Big 8) shared a championship with Ga Tech in 1990
    UCLA (as a member of the PCC) shared a championship with Ohio St in 1954

    Bottom line:

    BYU has won more consensus national championships than the rest of the PAC combined!

    That's not hyperbole, that's a fact.

    -----------

    btw, it was the back-to-back shared national championships of Colorado/Ga Tech and Washington/Miami that lead to the creation of the Bowl Coalition which lead to the Bowl Alliance which lead to the BCS

  • Jefe-Ute SLC, UT
    July 20, 2014 10:45 a.m.

    BYU fans get after Utah for moral victories when they almost get recruits, and almost win big games. Now BYU is talking about how awesome they are for a moral victory in being on the list for acceptance to the BIG 12...

    The funniest thing to me is that if you watch BYU's football media day, they said that they could not be happier with the miami beach bowl, playing against a "tough conference opponent" in the AAC. If that is such a "tough conference" and will be a "good game", then why did BYU stick up their nose at an invite into the former Big East, the SAME conference?

    If they are so desperate to get invited into the Big 12, then why did they go independent and talk about how awesome independence is? Watching the BYU media day it was like a battle between Bronco and Holmoe. Independence is the best thing for us and is getting us to where we want to be. Oh, but what we really want is to be in the Big 12. Which is it? Is the best independence, or is the best the Big 12?

  • Stringer Bell Henderson, NV
    July 20, 2014 11:09 a.m.

    Re: Hoosier87 "I've said it many times (and challenge our Ute friends to refute this), if Utah can get invited, then clearly BYU should be!"

    Based on what? In the past 10 years Utah had two undefeated seasons within a four year span. Easy schedule or not, they accepted it and went undefeated. They were the first BCS buster and then embarrassed Alabama for a second BCS bowl win. Given their easy schedules BYU hasn't come close to an undefeated season. Instead, they get embarrassed by one of the worst teams in the country, Virginia. Winning numerous awards and titles over thirty years ago impresses no one when it comes to credibility for conference inclusion today. Mr. Harmon hinted to that in his article. Prove it on the field today and then tell us why you should be part of the club. It takes more than a HD TV truck and wins over Savannah State.

  • Stringer Bell Henderson, NV
    July 20, 2014 11:17 a.m.

    NorCalCougarFan&Alum
    Elk Grove, CA

    "My dream conference would include the following teams: BYU, Notre Dame, Navy, Air Force, Army, Boston College, USC, Stanford, TCU, Texas A&M, Baylor, and Duke"

    "To be quite honest, my personal preference would be for BYU to belong to a conference with universities that have unique missions...respected academic institutions, offer more than just academics, and have some sort of code of conduct."

    Yeh, USC has a great code of conduct. Not sure you want to included with that "code".

  • PAC 12 loves U Sandy, Utah
    July 20, 2014 11:22 a.m.

    @ BYU media and fans

    If BYU has such a national brand and can bring value to any P5 conference they join. Then BYU would have already been invited.

    The Cougs would have been invited to the Big 12 instead of TCU a few years ago. The question is "why was TCU invited to join the Big 12 and not BYU?" "If BYU brings more value, how did TCU get in?"

    Perhaps TCU's recent success on the gridiron (which includes a Rose Bowl Championship) made them a desirable candidate. The problem is, BYU hasn't done anything since the BCS era started back in 1998.

    Utah and TCU both earned their way into a P5 conference by winning. Maybe BYU should try the same thing and drop this "entitlement" mentality.

  • PAC 12 loves U Sandy, Utah
    July 20, 2014 11:27 a.m.

    If Utah was still in the MWC, these articles would not be written. If Utah was still in the MWC, so would BYU.

    The only reason BYU went independent was because Utah joined the PAC-12. BYU did something so they wouldn't feel left behind. It's obvious!

  • SpanishImmersed Mesa, AZ
    July 20, 2014 11:34 a.m.

    Although my PAC 12 decal on my pickup isn't four times larger than Sparky, I'm hearing discontent in Boulder already with their west coast situation, so maybe the Cougars are barking at the wrong tree. We may just see the Cougars and Utes down here at SDS, just like old times!

  • Carson Provo, UT
    July 20, 2014 11:38 a.m.

    I recall Dicks articles in the Provo daily Herald about all the reasons why the Pac-10 would take BYU over Utah. That didn't happen. Give it a rest Mr. Harmon, The P-5 invite isn't going to happen either.

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 20, 2014 12:11 p.m.

    To those asking if Utah would leave the PAC-12 to go to the Big 10 if an offer to BYU.

    The closest analogy I could come up with is this: What are the chances a family living high in the Federal Heights area would abandon their home to move to Rose Park so a homeless family could be their neighbor even though the two families don't get along.

    So I'm saying there is a chance.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2014 12:33 p.m.

    The article is not as comprehensive as I thought. It pushes the positives for why BYU should be considered by the Big12, but it doesn't address the downsides for BYU if they became a member.

    1. Most years, BYU will struggle to be bowl eligible.
    See Utah. See TCU.
    2. BYU will be on TV less, due to #1 above and no more ESPN contract.
    There is BYUTV, but... by Grant of Rights, the Big12 would own the broadcast rights to BYU football. If BYU wanted to show its own football team on its own television station using its own HD truck, they'd have to pay the Big12 for right to do so.
    The conference may prefer to broadcast BYU games on the Big12 Network (currently not available in Utah).
    3. Recruiting won't get the bump they need to be competitive.
    BYU requires a special recruit. They'd have to step outside the bubble to get better talent. Could they handle it? Imagine Bronco dealing with 10 players with Jack Heaps attitude. Expect a spike in honor code violations.

    An end to winning seasons, and less television exposure. Be careful what you wish for...

  • CBAX Provo, UT
    July 20, 2014 12:38 p.m.

    So, how about we stop with the stupid articles and start winning games. Then keep winning. Are we scrambling to get into utah's position. Winning 5 games a year with no bowl? Let's not hurry to irrelevance. Teams like byu and utah can win and look good from the outside because they don't have to prove it week to week. Now that utah is on the inside it's good game for utah. 2004 and 2008 seasons would not have happened in the PAC-12

  • Robroy Murray, utah
    July 20, 2014 12:38 p.m.

    Robert, the utes play Idaho State this year. LOL

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    July 20, 2014 12:42 p.m.

    whoami

    "The PAC-12 is truly the "Conference of Champions". It is rated second as a football conference."

    BCS National Championships
    Big 12 - 1
    PAC 12 - 0

    National Championships in the Last 20 Years
    Big 12 - 4
    PAC 12 - 2

    Consensus (AP and Coaches) National Championships won by a PAC team other than USC

    NONE!

    Washington shared a championship with Miami in 1991
    Colorado (as a member of the Big 8) shared a championship with Ga Tech in 1990
    UCLA (as a member of the PCC) shared a championship with Ohio St in 1954

    Bottom line:

    BYU has won more consensus national championships than the rest of the PAC combined!

    That's not hyperbole, that's a fact.

    -----------

    btw, it was the back-to-back shared championships of Colorado/Ga Tech and Washington/Miami that lead to the creation of the Bowl Coalition which lead to the Bowl Alliance which lead to the BCS.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    July 20, 2014 12:43 p.m.

    this is ALL about winning. BYU will NEVER get invited to the Big 12 unless it can prove its worth and the last few years have been terrible. Last year for example BYU had the chance to beat Texas , Wisconsin , Notre Dame and Virgina. BYU only managed to beat Texas and lost fairly close games to the rest but a LOSS is a LOSS and nobody remembers the score. Had BYU gone 4 or 4 against those big teams last year things would have suddenly changed in peoples minds about the Y. Utah was invited to join the Pac 12 ONLY because of its two BCS wins...period!! It's all about winning and if the Y can somehow manage to beat the big teams on its schedule year in and year out then suddenly you will see room made for the Y in the Big 12....easier said than done because the Y will have to win on the road to do it.

  • Utes11 Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 20, 2014 12:50 p.m.

    Stop. Just stop printing these articles. Why not do " If the SEC expands, BYU is a waiting Candidate." It makes about as much sense as this one. Big 12 is not interested in expanding West. They are not interested in adding a school that won't play on Sunday's or have a problem with Budweiser ads. When and if they do expand it will be adding two teams that are east. The old WAC showed us what happens to conferences that span 3 times zones. Sheeeesh! Just stop already.
    Sic 'Em.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    July 20, 2014 12:52 p.m.

    I don't follow the logic behind the Big 12's "one true champion" motto simply because it's a 10-team league wherein all teams play each other. The MWC had a 10-team league wherein all schools played each other as well...back in 2012. And they did NOT have "one true champion". At 7-1 apiece, BSU, FSU, and SDSU finished with a 3-way tie as MWC champions, which each going 1-1 against the other in head-to-head play. If one wants one TRUE champion, there's a better chance of that happening with a CCG.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    July 20, 2014 12:55 p.m.

    "In the meantime, BYU is acting like a Power 5 program." -- Dick Harmon

    How so Dick? Because they schedule an FCS team every year, just like "Power 5" schools do? It certainly isn't because the Y schedules a minimum of 8 "Power 5" schools each year, like "Power 5" schools do. Last year was their best schedule EVER and they only scheduled 6. And going forward from 2014 onward, the only season where the Y has more than 3 "Power 5" opponents on the schedule, is 2017...

    ...where they have 4.

    And most of those scheduled "Power 5" teams fall under the one-off or 2-for-1 arrangement deals.

    Sorry Dick. The Y is NOT acting like a "Power 5" program. They're acting "midmajorey". Always have. And that's why they'll be "midmajors forever".

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    July 20, 2014 12:56 p.m.

    "I think it's interesting that people draw a distinction between east-west geography and north-south geography. Folks seem to complain when a conference stretches east and west...But nobody ever viewed it as problematic that the old Big East stretched from the southern tip of Florida all the way north to Syracuse." -- Trammel

    That's because Syracuse and Miami are all in the same time zone. There's no jet-lag. With the 16-team WAC, the league stretched from Honolulu (Hawai'i) to Houston (Rice), and spanned 5 time zones. One time zone difference isn't that big a deal, but two or more becomes taxing on the visiting team.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    July 20, 2014 12:59 p.m.

    GrayGrantham:

    "BYU joining the Big 12 seemingly will never go away until...the Big 12 expands without BYU."

    Not so Gray. The Big 8/12 ALREADY expanded without the cougars -- TWICE (1996, 2012) -- yet that never stopped them from pretending they're still in serious contention for yet ANOTHER round of expansion involving this power league. If the Big 12 expands to 12 by adding Cincinnati and UCF, Y fans will just speculate about the Big 12 expanding to 14 teams like the BigTen, ACC, and the SEC, and about how they'll be on the short list of Big 12 expansion targets. And if the Big 12 expanded to 14 teams --like the BigTen, ACC, and SEC -- but added USF and UConn instead, Y fans will just jump to speculations about the Big 12 expanding to a 16-team super conference, and appoint themselves as the Big 12's NEW "leading candidate for expansion".

    They'll never stop.

  • ItrustNo1 La Grange, TN
    July 20, 2014 1:12 p.m.

    This commonly used phrase "the power 5 teams" must be in reference to how many real power teams there are in the so called "power 5 conferences", because its no secrete to anyone who follows college football that the vast majority of teams in these conferences are just lucky to be there. It is also obvious to anyone that this "new" playoff system is about money, not about discovering the most deserving college team to be named national champions. What is even more sad, is that we, fans and coaches alike, are turning the other cheek and allowing this fabricated "power 5 conferences" nonsense to become the platform model for the entire country. This is a sad time for college football.

  • cmsense Kaysville, UT
    July 20, 2014 1:22 p.m.

    Too many articles already. Lets wait until there is something to talk about, not hypotheticals. Lets emphasize what BYU has going currently which is quite a lot.

    A conference affiliation would solve a lot of headaches like having to play most of the headline games as away games and bringing in too many pancake games for home games since we have to go begging to schedule games and the power 5 conferences tend to schedule three home pancake games to start the season, but such is our current lot. Yea, some behind the scene action would be great. Article after article with nothing to report, personally I don't think it looks good.

    If the "power 5" conferences want to break off and do their own thing, I think they will lose a lot of fans. Personally I don't like watching people that are too full of themselves and I think their ratings and money will go down. I know I'll tune out. The great thing about the NCAA basketball is everybody feels like they have a chance and everyone loves a cinderella team.

  • MapleDon Springville, UT
    July 20, 2014 2:28 p.m.

    Why stop at just the Big 12? Why not continue this one-sided conversation about the Cougs joining the SEC? It makes just as much sense since neither conference is talking about, let alone considering, adding BYU.

    This is pure hype. And to try and build up hope in the fans that somehow BYU is going to join a major conference is a disservice. You know it's not true, Harmon. So drop it.

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 20, 2014 2:48 p.m.

    @justtheFAX

    Two distinct sentences. Two separate complete thoughts.

    Re: Conference of champions "With 469 total titles, Conference teams have, by far, claimed the most national championships in the country all-time, over 200 more than the next closest league (Big Ten - 266)." As KSL.com >>BYU by Patrick Kinahan said, "For what BYU basketball has accomplished through the years, the West Coast Conference is good enough. Beyond that, nobody really cares, anyway” As your response suggests it appears all other sport championships do not matter to BYU fans. Summary: football - king; basketball - second citizen; all others - who cares.

    Re: Number two ranking of football conferences: 1/2014 ESPN "Overall, the Pac-12 finished with six teams ranked in the AP Top 25 and five teams ranked in the top 10 of ESPN's Football Power Index. As a result of its strength in the computers, the Pac-12 was the clear No. 2 conference in the Power Rankings"

  • Taysom4Heisman Heber City, UT
    July 20, 2014 2:55 p.m.

    @Pac 12 Loves U

    "The only reason BYU went independent was because Utah joined the PAC-12. BYU did something so they wouldn't feel left behind. It's obvious!"

    Or, you know... maybe we went independent because we make 3 times as much money as being a MWC member. Or that we get way more exposure. Or that we play better schedules. Or that we play all over the country instead of in Wyoming and Colorado every year. Or that pretty much every aspect of independence (with the exception of no conference title to play for) is light years better than being in the MWC.

    To say we went independent because utah went to the Pac-12? Please. That doesn't even begin to make sense.

  • Taysom4Heisman Heber City, UT
    July 20, 2014 3:02 p.m.

    @Naval Vet

    "Not so Gray. The Big 8/12 ALREADY expanded without the cougars -- TWICE (1996, 2012) -- yet that never stopped them from pretending they're still in serious contention for yet ANOTHER round of expansion involving this power league."

    Well if the Big 12 expands again they kind of need to add a NEW member.

    Sure, they passed on BYU to add TCU and West Virginia last time.

    What do you expect them to do? Add TCU and West Virginia again?

    Obviously, they would need 2 new teams who are currently not conference members. So yeah, we do have a chance.

    TCU wasn't added to the Big 12 in 1996. So I suppose they had no chance in 2012 based on your logic. Oh, wait, they did have a chance in 2012, considering they got in.

    utah got left behind a long time ago when the Pac-8 added Arizona and ASU. I suppose they had no shot in 2011 based on your logic.

    This is not 1996 my friend. And it's not 2012 either.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 20, 2014 3:02 p.m.

    Ironic that Brian Davis was mentioned in this article but not this:

    "There is a thought among Big 12 administrators that BYU is hard to work with. I’ll tell you point blank, a lot of people think Texas is arrogant. Some Big 12 people think BYU is arrogant, as well. These are perceptions that have to be overcome before BYU, in my mind, gets a serious audience with people in the Big 12." -- Brian Davis

    So the "alpha dog" of mid-majors, Boise State would disagree, is considered arrogant and hard to work with, MWC would agree, yet Deseret News feels that BYU is on the cusp of a Big 12 invite? Maybe BYU's been humbled and has toned it down a notch, if not I don't think the Big 12 can handle TWO Texas size egos even though I think BYU is a great fit. Well at least Nebraska, Colorado, Texas A&M, and Missouri couldn't handle it.

  • Stringer Bell Henderson, NV
    July 20, 2014 3:55 p.m.

    Re: jet "The BCS Conferences were alarmed with BYU, TCU, Utah and Boise St upsetting the apple cart."

    What BCS conference was alarmed by anything BYU did to "upset the apple cart"? Did they go undefeated? Did they win a BCS Bowl? Did they even get invited to a BCS Bowl? The other three teams did.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2014 4:04 p.m.

    patriot
    Cedar Hills, UT

    "Utah was invited to join the Pac 12 ONLY because of its two BCS wins...period!!"

    Not true, patriot. It takes a lot more than wins on a football field to be a part of the Pac-12. Your byu can win every game until the cows come home and still would not qualify for the Pac-12. Get it?

    Look, we get it...independence is a bust and byu and its fans are desperately seeking what Utah has. byu's only chance is the B12 and they are clearly not interested. Too bad. Give it a rest.

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, UT
    July 20, 2014 4:28 p.m.

    Even with BYU outside a P5 conference and Utah as a member of a P5 conference, BYU is still more relevant than Utah is. Ouch. Now we have to put up with all these Ute fans who need to justify their insecurity to us BYU fans on these BYU articles.

  • Marked it Down Park City, UT
    July 20, 2014 4:28 p.m.

    whoami

    If conference realignment is all about football, which it is, what difference does it make how many water polo championship the PAC 12 has won?

    Who care how strong the conference is top to bottom in football, if the only national championship contender is USC?

    Utah fans can spin it however helps them sleep at night, but when it come to national championships, the only team in the PAC 12 that has ever won a consensus national championship (AP and Coaches) is USC.

  • never break .500 Los Angeles, CA
    July 20, 2014 5:06 p.m.

    hey Ute fans…don't be projecting your Ute disasters onto how BYU would do in the BIG12. Just get ready for a replay of 3-9 or maybe 5-7 again this year. BYU has sack and will continue to win, get ranked, get tv ratings, and enjoy independence until something better offers itself to us. That's the way life is in Provo. Just read and re-read all those accolades BYU has earned. Not just a couple good seasons. Congrats on your strength of schedule trophy and big pay check awarded you for those beatings.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2014 6:17 p.m.

    T4H "Well if the Big 12 expands again they kind of need to add a NEW member."
    Not necessarily.

    You may have missed this subtle note in the article "Big 12 isn’t interested in adding any other non-Power 5 schools". In other words, they might expand by picking up fellow P5 members.

    Conference realignment was about conference survival. With the line drawn at 65, conferences may shuffle among themselves. Another conference may find 14 teams unwieldy, and want to pare down to 12, giving the Big12 two members. Perhaps, Missouri returns and Arkansas comes with them?

    Given that the "Big 12 cut larger checks per team than the 14-team SEC", it is possible. The point is, Big 12 expansion doesn't necessarily mean mid-major promotions.

  • FYI Taylorsville, UT
    July 20, 2014 6:20 p.m.

    @JD
    "BYU has never gone undefeated (let alone done it twice"

    Correction. BYU was undefeated in 1984, hence the National Championship. Get your facts straight before you post.

  • CO Ute PARKER, CO
    July 20, 2014 6:32 p.m.

    While a good article, this seems to be a non issue now. Even the headline indicates that the Big 12 isn't going to expand at this time. All the comments on which team did or didn't deserve an invite, proposed new conferences, which conference is better, and 90 percent of the posts on this article are all speculation and opinion. There only a few facts.
    The Big 12 isn't 12 teams and at the time isn't going to expand.
    Utah did get an invite and is in a P5 conference.
    BYU choose to go independent in football.

    Speculate all you want, but how about waiting until there is actually a firm discussion about the Big 12 expanding before speculating what team will or won't get added?

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 20, 2014 6:36 p.m.

    never break .500
    Los Angeles, CA

    hey Ute fans…don't be projecting your Ute disasters onto how BYU would do in the BIG12.

    --------------

    We're not, we're projecting your own disasters onto how you will do in the Big 12:

    2-5 vs P5 last year
    2-5 vs PAC-12, only wins over 3-9 Washington State and 3-9 Oregon State.
    0-4 vs TCU, which was 2-6 in the Big 12 last year
    0-4 vs Utah, which was 2-7 in the PAC-12 last year

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    July 20, 2014 6:39 p.m.

    @Riverton Cougar

    BYU more relevant than Utah? Yes... to Mr. Harmon.

    Outside of Utah BYU is a relevant as crickets... thus no invite from the P5.

  • Trouble Vancouver, WA
    July 20, 2014 6:55 p.m.

    Instead of expanding, would the Big 12 contract by two schools? Wouldn't the remaining eight programs gain an even larger of the revenue pie if they split it only eight ways instead of ten?

    If money is truly driving college football these days, then contraction has be considered as an option to increase the coffers of the largest and most influential schools; not that this would help BYU at all.

  • PAC 12 loves U Sandy, Utah
    July 20, 2014 7:02 p.m.

    @ Taysom4Heisman

    "maybe we went independent because we make 3 times as much money as being a MWC member. Or that we get way more exposure. Or that we play better schedules. Or that we play all over the country instead of in Wyoming and Colorado every year"

    Any team can go independent and team up with ESPN for exposure so they can play on Thursday and Friday nights. You see Sun Belt and MAC teams play on Thursday and Friday nights all the time. BYU was just convenient and flexible since being left behind that ESPN would contract them to play most of their games on Thursday and Friday nights. BYU is being used to fill time slots on weekdays and nothing more.

    "To say we went independent because utah went to the Pac-12? Please. That doesn't even begin to make sense"

    Sure it does! Utah announced they were joining the PAC-10 in June of 2010. Shortly after, BYU announced their independence 3 months later. Timing seems to indicate that BYU had a knee-jerk reaction to Utah's invite.

  • H-man Shreveport, LA
    July 20, 2014 7:04 p.m.

    My,my, my--all you have to do is look at the flood of comments from Ute fans tearing down BYU in any way possible to realize how insecure they are. One poster in Philadelphia had to post FOUR messages in a row tearing down BYU. "Look at me! Look at me!" they shout. "I know what the real story is." If Utah fans were so secure, they wouldn't have to call so much attention to themselves on an article about BYU.

  • Trouble Vancouver, WA
    July 20, 2014 7:13 p.m.

    With Coach Mendenahall's comments about joining the Big 12, BYU has declared it's candidacy for membership, should any Power 5 conference decide to expand. The Cougars could easily join as football only members, which would sidestep the no Sunday issue and, more importantly, much of the geography problem. Road games for other conference members would be only 4 or 5 games a year.

    And with the declaration of candidacy, BYU has implicitly announced that they are willing to negotiate on other issues. Whatever concerns other member schools have about inviting an alpha-dog BYU to join could be easily mitigated through minimal concessions from BYU and mutual agreement among the remaining schools.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    July 20, 2014 8:39 p.m.

    Taysom4Heisman:

    "Well if the Big 12 expands again they kind of need to add a NEW member. Sure, they passed on BYU to add TCU and West Virginia last time. What do you expect them to do? Add TCU and West Virginia again? Obviously, they would need 2 new teams who are currently not conference members. So yeah, we do have a chance."

    I expect them to add schools EAST of the Mississippi...like Cincinnati and UCF. I also expect additional AAC schools such as (in no particular order) SMU, Houston, USF, Tulane, and UConn to be of more interest to the Big 12 for expansion purposes than the Y. The cougars aren't getting in, so get happy with being so midmajorey. It's part of your "brand".

  • Taysom4Heisman Heber City, UT
    July 20, 2014 8:54 p.m.

    @SoonerUte

    "You may have missed this subtle note in the article "Big 12 isn’t interested in adding any other non-Power 5 schools". In other words, they might expand by picking up fellow P5 members."

    When did I say the Big 12 had to add a non-P5 team? I understand they could steal a team from a big conference.

    All I said was they needed to add a new member. A previous ute fan was making it sound like BYU had no shot simply because they were left out of previous expansions. I was simply making the point that the Big 12 can't add TCU or West Virginia, because they already have. They need a NEW team.

    So I apologize if I wasn't clear on that, but when I said new team, I simply meant a team not in the Big 12. Not necessarily a non-P5 team.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    July 20, 2014 8:56 p.m.

    Just the FAX
    Olympus Cove, Utah
    whoami

    "The PAC-12 is truly the "Conference of Champions". It is rated second as a football conference."

    Bottom line:

    BYU has won more consensus national championships than the rest of the PAC combined!

    That's not hyperbole, that's a fact.

    _________________

    Bottom line:

    As of June 26, 2014. The PAC 12 has won a total of 469 NCAA titles in all sports.
    The Conference of Champions.

    That's not hyperbole, that's a fact.

  • idablu Idaho Falls, ID
    July 20, 2014 9:08 p.m.

    The real question is 'Why are the Ute fans so worked up about this?'

    On this well-written article about BYU's bid to get into the Big-12, posts from Ute fans outnumber posts from BYU fans 2:1? 3:1? This is really puzzling to me. Your team is in the PAC12 and making lots of money. The future is bright. So why the continued obsession with BYU?

    The Ute Faithful on here like to label BYU fans as arrogant and delusional. Ironically the Ute fans are showing themselves to be arrogant and insecure.

  • DuckOuttaWater SLC , UT
    July 20, 2014 9:15 p.m.

    Just moved here from Oregon but lived in Utah as a kid so I don't really have a horse in this race but it seems to me that there's a lot of commentators that are letting their strong feelings in the rivalry cloud their judgement.

    First off, BYU fans, Utah deserves to be in the PAC12 with my Ducks. No we are not unhappy with their inclusion and welcome them as brothers to the conference of champions. They are a good academic school and have been impressive recently with two big BCS victories especially the one over Bama. They will improve and continue to compete at a higher level as they increase their depth and talent.

    Utah fans, BYU has a strong tradition and has done some impressive things over their history. They bring a much larger fanbase than Utah does, and also have amazing facilities, stadium size and clout that many Power 5 programs simply don't have. If they were more a research institution and didn't have issues playing on Sundays, they would already be in a P5 conference (maybe even ahead of Utah bc of their larger following).

  • giantfan Farmington, UT
    July 20, 2014 10:14 p.m.

    Navel,

    Did you even read the article? What do SMU, Houston or Tulane have on their resumes that trump BYU, besides geography? And Uconn and USF are further away than Provo.

  • poyman Lincoln City, OR
    July 20, 2014 10:45 p.m.

    @big12callyet

    Your fictitious summary of the utes invite into the big bad pac12 is possibly the most innovative, the biggest stretch of reality that I think that I have ever seen written...

    The world knows the truth and regardless of how many times you ute fanatics try to rewrite history the facts are not going to change...

    Six schools were asked to join the conference and five rejected the invite... Colorado was not happy with the Big 12 because they thought Texas wielded too much power and so they ran (they had a chance to escape and took it)... Scott had to come up with another invitee (he knew the anti-religious BOT from the Bay area would not sign off on a Religious institution... particularly a Mormon one) and so that really left him with only one choice... Utah.

    The way you tell it makes people think that you earned your way into the invite... Truth is, the utes were chosen from a field of one.... like on the play grounds... "the last kid chosen"... Scott had no choice... If one doesn't mind their team being the "runt" of the league, then by all means... celebrate... yahoo...

  • SLC BYU Fan Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2014 11:00 p.m.

    The bottom line is people, BYU won't be going to any "P5" league anytime soon, and like it or not the odds right now just prior to the start of the 2014 season is BYU is far more likely to drop football or intercollegiate athletics entirely than be admitted to the Big 12. Within the ranks of the senior leadership of the LDS Church there has been been this discussion like it or not (Rexburg & Hawaii should tell anyone enough). There is NO WAY they'll ever allow BYU to do as many MWC schools do and start charging student fees to support the athletic mission (just ask anyone at Utah State), but as Tom Holmoe will tell you, the costs for running a program are rising faster than the federal deficit under Obama. Not even all athletic Grant Of Aids (scholarships) being endowed and a 63,000+ stadium that potentially gates $1.5-2+ million/game will be enough to cover the costs of staying in the mid-major ranks. If a "P5" league invite doesn't come for BYU before 2019 or returning to the MWC doesn't cover ESPN pay-outs and independence, BYU will drop the program. Sad but VERY true.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 21, 2014 12:01 a.m.

    @poyman
    Six schools were asked to join the [PAC-10] conference and five rejected the invite..

    ---------

    Nope. Texas was invited the other 5 were hanging onto it's coattail. You think the PAC-12 was going to take a team like Kansas and expand THREE timezones without Texas?

    If so then you probably think the only reason BYU wasn't even considered was because of religion.... oh!

    "Texas remains the key to Pac-10 plans to expand to a 16-school, two division super conference. Pac-10 officials see Texas as the flagship university...Pac-10 officials hope Texas A&M will round out the Eastern Division. If the Aggies jump to the SEC or pursue other options, the Pac-10 will look at Utah and Kansas."

    "In most pre-Scott expansion landscapes, the schools that best fit a move to the Pac-10 were Colorado and Utah. After all the negotiations, after all the rumors and discussions of a 16-team Pac-10, the league ended up with Colorado. Speculation is rampant that Utah is soon to follow. " -- ESPN

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 21, 2014 2:42 a.m.

    "In the meantime, BYU is acting like a Power 5 program... BYU's brand and tradition is Power 5, but it rolls without a Power 5 tribe." -- DH

    ---------------

    A Power 5 brand that tried to roll with the WAC tribe, only to have the conference self-destruct when Nevada and Fresno State bailed? That's one weak Power 5 brand.

    BYU's brand and tradition is the WAC, not even the MWC where they were 3rd fiddle to TCU and Utah.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    July 21, 2014 6:00 a.m.

    poyman,
    Chris's version is closer to the truth.
    Utah was considered and deemed worthy.
    Whatever byu did in the 70's and 80's is outweighed by their baggage...if considered at all...and that's how the other P5 feel today.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    July 21, 2014 6:30 a.m.

    poyman:

    "...regardless of how many times you ute fanatics try to rewrite history the facts are not going to change...Six schools were asked to join the conference and five rejected the invite."

    Sorry poyman, but regardless of how many times YOU try to rewrite history, the facts are not going to change.

    Only 2 Big 12 teams were invited to join the Pac-10. Two. Not six. Colorado accepted. Texas declined, and TT, OU, OSU, and KU were never invited. The Pac-10 wanted Texas and CU, and HAD wanted them since Texas left the SWC. Those other Big 12 South schools were just what the Pac-12 was offering Texas to entice them to move west. But without Texas, none of those other schools were really wanted.

    Utah on the other hand, was on the Pac-10's short list well before TT, OU, OSU, and KU. Utah did not require anyone's coattails to ride in on like those other 4 Big 12 South schools.

    OU and OSU applied for Pac-12 membership without Texas back in 2011, but were denied. So we weren't the last kid on the playground. At the very least, OU and OSU were.

  • royalblue Alpine, UT
    July 21, 2014 7:14 a.m.

    wacpaddled

    "As of June 26, 2014. The PAC 12 has won a total of 469 NCAA titles in all sports.
    The Conference of Champions."

    Yet with all of those championships, USC is the ONLY team in the PAC 12 that has ever won a consensus (AP and Coaches) national championship in football.

    Despite your frantic attempt to deflect attention away from the critical factor in realignment, which is football, this undeniable fact remains:

    BYU has won more consensus (AP and Coaches) national championships in football than the rest of the PAC 12 combined!

  • DeepBlue Anaheim, CA
    July 21, 2014 7:20 a.m.

    SLC BYU-hating Fan

    "The bottom line is people, BYU won't be going to any "P5" league anytime soon, and like it or not the odds right now just prior to the start of the 2014 season is BYU is far more likely to drop football or intercollegiate athletics entirely than be admitted to the Big 12."

    The bottom line is the college football landscape can change in an instant and nobody knows when that will happen. Despite the laughable prognostications of doom from the hill crowd, BYU intercollegiate athletics will be going strong long after you and your clones have given up trying to predict them out of existence.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 21, 2014 7:26 a.m.

    BYU needs to move to the Big 12 in the worst way. Otherwise, they will be on the out side looking in. The new playoff will generate $4.2 million for each PAC 12 school; $320K for BYU. Huge disparity.

  • DeepBlue Anaheim, CA
    July 21, 2014 7:39 a.m.

    navelvet

    Your frantic attempt to rewrite history is laughable.

    Remember the Big 12 South / PAC 10 merger talks? It was all over the news so I'm sure with your "expert" googling experience you could probably did up an article or 20.

    The Big 12 South include Texas, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, and Baylor.

    Some of the religious bigots in the PAC 10 objected to inviting a religiously-based school, so to shut Baylor out of the picture, Larry Scott quickly invited Colorado in the dead of the night.

    Then Texas A&M got cold feet because the Aggies were tired of playing second-fiddle to Texas, and pulled out of the merger talks.

    Regardless of whether Larry Scott actually extended a formal invitation to the rest of the Big 12 South, or not, that was the plan that at one point, according to Orangebloods, was all but a done deal.

    Utah just happened to be in the right place at the right to take advantage of the failed merger - a non-religious, research institution with a decent-sized television market, and a fairly decent sports program.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 21, 2014 7:56 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    If revenue is the soul determinant of athletic success, then the Utes might as well give up now, because Utah will never come close to matching the revenue streams of the big boy schools like Texas, Wisconsin, Alabama, Michigan, Ohio St, Oklahoma, Florida, USC, and UCLA.

    If you want to see what a HUGE DISPARITY really looks like:

    #1 Texas generates $120 million more than Utah.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 21, 2014 8:08 a.m.

    Uteanymous

    Revenue is just one of many factors. The opportunity to play great oppisition, and the opportunity to play in a number of differen't bowl games are both important. Also, Utah will receive the same amount that USC and UCLA get in TV revenue. $21 mill/year, and playoff revenue $$ mill/year. The topic is BYU and the BIG 12. So how does BYU's TV and playoff revenue compare? So you don't think it's important for BYU to join a P5 conference, probably the Big 12? I do, and I have to believe that most BYU fans would be thrilled to see BYU join the Big 12. A lot of us side, and not much down side.

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 21, 2014 8:20 a.m.

    @Just the FAX

    Some time ago I said something to the effect the BCS was created to insure a team playing such a weak schedule as BYU did in 1984 could not win the national championship. In your post on page 4 you said the BCS was created because of split championships. So I googled "Why was the BCS created?" It led me to Wikipedia where under "History leading to the creation and dissolution of the BCS" it said there had been split championships in 1997 and 2003. It also said, " Several coaches and reporters claimed that BYU had not played a legitimate schedule and should not be recognized as national champion. Not only was Pittsburgh the only ranked team the Cougars faced all season, but at the time BYU played in the mid-major Western Athletic Conference.... To address these problems..."
    I am man enough to admit you were right. Are you man enough to admit that I was right also?

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    July 21, 2014 8:35 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    "The new playoff will generate $4.2 million for each PAC 12 school..."

    If Utah gets the same as all of the other PAC 12 schools, how is that going to help Utah's incremental competitiveness in the PAC 12?

    USA Today's recently published athletic budget total revenue figures show Utah dead last in the PAC 12:

    #1 Oregon - $115,241,070
    #2 California - $94,487,380
    #3 Washington - $85,072,886
    #4 UCLA - $83,926,720
    ... USC and Stanford
    #7 Arizona - $68,510,915
    #8 Ariz St - $65,673,955
    #9 Oregon St - $65,467,970
    #10 Colorado - $58,334,345
    #11 Wash St - $47,191,240
    #12 Utah - $46,855,283

    No figures for USC and Stanford (which are private institutions), but it's a safe bet that each of them generates at least $80,000,000+ in revenue each year.

    Based on revenue alone, it's likely Utah will always remain firmly entrenched at the bottom of the PAC 12 with Washington St and Colorado.

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    July 21, 2014 8:46 a.m.

    I don't see the formation of another conference as a viable option. Notre Dame already has a deal with the ACC. Football plays 5 games a year and will likely be a full member eventually. All other sports are full members. I can't see a brand new conference being able to give Notre Dame what they have now, unless there were significant involvement from current top level P5 conference members. Without Notre Dame and other P5 members a new conference would be just like the current lower level conferences.

  • deductive reasoning Arlington, VA
    July 21, 2014 8:53 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    What difference does it make if U play "great opposition", but aren't good enough to qualify for a bowl?

    Utah fans have been talking about playing in the Rose Bowl since Utah was first invited to join the PAC 12, yet I don't see any evidence whatsoever that Utah is even close to challenging for a division title, let alone a conference title.

    If the topic is "BYU and the BIG 12", what relevance does Utah have in the discussion?

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 21, 2014 9:18 a.m.

    @ deductive reasoning

    Utah played in the Sun Bowl 3 years ago; a bowl they would never have played in if it wasn't for the PAC 12. They have only been in the conference 3 years, not 30. P5 (Utah being a member) revenue and bowl opportunity has everything to do with the discussion. Pretty simple concept in my mind.

    So my question is; if BYU was extended a bid to join the BIG 12; would BYU fans prefer they accept the BIG 12 invite, or stay independent? To me it's a no brainer; join a P5 conference.

  • deductive reasoning Arlington, VA
    July 21, 2014 9:37 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    "Utah played in the Sun Bowl 3 years ago; a bowl they would never have played in if it wasn't for the PAC 12."

    One bowl in three years, and the Sun Bowl at that, isn't saying much.

    Back in the day, the Sun Bowl was one of the few New Year's Day bowls, and there was a certain amount of prestige associated with playing in one of the oldest bowls.

    Unfortunately, those days are long gone and a decent paycheck and network television tie-in are all that remain. As far as bowl destinations, El Paso is one of the worst places on a the bowl calendar.

    Frankly, I'd much rather spend bowl week in San Diego, San Francisco, Dallas or Miami, regardless of payout. As far as bowl opponent goes, BYU has played Georgia Tech twice in the last three years.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2014 9:40 a.m.

    SLC BYU Fan...

    This board is still waiting for a list of ways that byu built up Utah's (and Utah State's) brand to support your ill-advised post on page 2.

    So...where's the list?

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 21, 2014 10:10 a.m.

    @deductive resoning

    Those cities you listed are not an option this year. It's Miami or no where. That's a major down side of independence. I was happy with the Sun Bowl. It was a good game and a nice reward for Utah. I don't travel to bowl games so the host city isn't that big of deal to me. The bigger the bowl, and opponent are more important. After the last two years; I would be happy with any bowl. Both seasons were disapointing to say the least. I like the PAC 12 bowl tie ins and the opportunites that they bring. You never answered by question regarding a BIG 12 invite.

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, UT
    July 21, 2014 10:34 a.m.

    "BYU more relevant than Utah? Yes... to Mr. Harmon.

    Outside of Utah BYU is a relevant as crickets... thus no invite from the P5."

    P5 membership isn't the ultimate indicator of relevance. Boise State is more relevant than Utah, I would say.

    Besides, I made the point that despite P5 membership Utah is less relevant than BYU. The P5 membership is your only point of argument, but everything else points to BYU. The ESPN contract for one thing. BYU's national championship for another. Ute fans love to bring up that the Utes have several undefeated seasons while BYU only has one, but fail to realize that that ONE undefeated season was enough to warrant a national championship whereas all of Utah's undefeated seasons couldn't get them that (the closest they got was a #2 ranking in one poll). Why? Because Utah is not as relevant as BYU. If they were, they would have been given a chance at the national championship.

  • Oh Really? HERRIMAN, UT
    July 21, 2014 10:43 a.m.

    @JD

    Get your facts straight, dude, then comment.

    BYU went undefeated in 1984, the same year they won the National Championship (which Utah never will).

    BYU played in the Cotton Bowl in 1997 when the four premier bowls were the Orange, Sugar, Cotton and Rose Bowls. Many National Championship games were played in the Cotton Bowl.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 21, 2014 11:05 a.m.

    @Riverton Coug

    If BYU would have had their 1984 season in the BCS era, they wouldn't have won the National Championship either; don't kid your self.

  • Mildred in Fillmore Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2014 11:07 a.m.

    They won't let us in the Big 12 because they know we would dominate that league.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2014 11:16 a.m.

    @ 65TossPowerTrap

    You have just demonstrated a classic phenomenon of motivation to achieve success vs. motivation to avoid failure. Utah fits into the achieve success category, while BYU fits into the avoid failure. Either is fine, but only obviously has a higher ceiling than the other

  • Stringer Bell Henderson, NV
    July 21, 2014 12:01 p.m.

    Never break 500 "Just read and re-read all those accolades BYU has earned"

    One would need the Rosetta Stone in order to do that because it happened so long ago. What have you done this century? When your only undefeated season was over thirty years ago and all of the "awards" were before any of the current players were born, that unfortunately doesn't do much to attract a P5 conference to you.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    July 21, 2014 12:04 p.m.

    @Riverton Cougar

    You are a loyal, yet misguided, defender of your team.

    But since you brought it up, are you really relying on a undefeated season almost 30 years ago to justify BYU relevance in the modern era of college football? Really?

    Okay.. let's consider BYU'S 1984 undefeated season... You would be mistaken if you think the 1984 NC was awarded based on the results of that season alone. It was awarded based on the 24 game win steak that extended back to the second week of the 1983 season... a win streak that included only one ranked team, and that team ended the season 3-7-1. The reality is that because of BYUs lack of relevance it took a 24 game win streak to be awarded the 1984 NC.

    I wouldn't be the first to suggest that the BYU win streak and 1984 championship based on weak competition was at least part of reason that college football has evolved to the BCS and to the current CFP... both of which have excluded BYU... a further reflection of BYU irrelevance.

  • UtesRulePac12 Orem, UT
    July 21, 2014 12:11 p.m.

    @ Uteology

    Wondered about your comment regarding BYU as 3rd fiddle to Utah and TCU in the MWC. Looked up MWC football championships: BYU 4, Utah 4, and TCU 4. What is most impressive is that TCU has as many as both BYU and Utah, yet were in the conference for a shorter time.

    We probably ought to move on from the third fiddle argument because it could also be argued that we were third fiddle.

    Just sayin . . . .

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    July 21, 2014 12:14 p.m.

    DeepBlue
    Anaheim, CA
    navelvet

    Your frantic attempt to rewrite history is laughable.

    Remember the Big 12 South / PAC 10 merger talks? It was all over the news so I'm sure with your "expert" googling experience you could probably did up an article or 20.

    Some of the religious bigots in the PAC 10 objected to inviting a religiously-based school, so to shut Baylor out of the picture, Larry Scott quickly invited Colorado in the dead of the night.

    Then Texas A&M got cold feet because the Aggies were tired of playing second-fiddle to Texas...

    ___________

    Uh you are the one twisting facts.
    A&M was already in talks to leave for the SEC.
    Texas politicians at the last minute pushed for Baylor to go with the other invited schools. Not a rejection by the PAC 12 as you claim. Stop picking selectively what orangebloods said.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 21, 2014 12:36 p.m.

    @UtesRulePac12

    Are you sure you are a Ute fan? Because, a Ute fan would know that no one cares about MWC Champions playing in Bowl Diddly.

    MWC Tiles:
    1. TCU 5 (Rose)
    2. Utah 4 (Fiesta and Sugar)
    3. BYU 4 (Bowl Diddly)

    * Utah's 2008 team was the highest ranked mid-major team under BCS rules with 16 first place AP votes. Next was TCU in 2010 with 3.

    * Utah was the FIRST BCS buster, who helped pave the way for TCU, Boise State, Hawaii by changing the top 6 auto qualification rule to top 12.

    Personally I think TCU was better, but Utah held its own against TCU (3-3) while BYU (2-5) rolled over and screamed mercy.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    July 21, 2014 12:39 p.m.

    Spokane Ute

    "If BYU would have had their 1984 season in the BCS era, they wouldn't have won the National Championship..."

    There's absolutely no way of proving that the #1 team in both the AP and Coaches final regular season polls wouldn't have been included in the BCS championship game.

    On the other hand, if Utah had had their 3-0 1944 regular season in any year other than 1944, the Utes wouldn't have even been invited to the NCAA tournament, let alone been given a 2nd chance to win it, after being bounced from the NIT, the premier tournament of the day.

  • talkinsports Gilbert, AZ
    July 21, 2014 12:58 p.m.

    Uteology

    "Cal is firmly entrenched in the bottom of the PAC-12. They were 1-11 last year, 11-26 since 2011 when Utah joined. All this despite having $94,487,380 in revenues and #2 in your list."

    Thanks for shooting a gigantic hole in Spokane Ute's theory of BYU being at a huge disadvantage because the Cougars won't be getting as much playoff revenue as the Utes.

    It was USA Today's list and Utah hasn't done better than California in the bowl department the last three years:

    California - Holiday, no bowl, no bowl
    Utah - Sun, no bowl, no bowl

    -----------------

    btw, BYU stomped Texas 40-21 last season, the same Texas team that stomped TCU 30-7.

    So how does that prove that BYU would do "worse" in the Big 12 than TCU?

  • Y's little brother Sandy, UT
    July 21, 2014 1:09 p.m.

    Uteology

    Congratulations on finishing 2 games ahead of winless California in the conference standings, that's really an amazing feat.

    Bronco/Kyle era

    Conference Titles
    Bronco 2
    Kyle 1

    AP Top 25 finishes
    Bronco 4
    Kyle 2

    11+ Win, Top 15 seasons
    Bronco 3
    Kyle 1

    Bowls
    Bronco 9
    Kyle 7

    -----------------

    "Utah's 2008 team was the highest ranked mid-major team under BCS rules with 16 first place AP votes."

    WRONG!

    Utah fans keep spewing this nonsense, but there are absolutely no "BCS rules" associated with the AP poll, in fact, the AP won't even allow the BCS to use their poll.

    In 2003, the AP completely ignored the BCS championship game, and chose USC as their national champion.

    The highest Utah has ever placed in the official BCS final poll, the Coaches Poll, is 4th, only one place higher than BYU's 1996 Cotton Bowl winning 14-1 team.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 21, 2014 1:13 p.m.

    Phoenix

    You may want to re-visit my statement. I did not say they would not have "been included in the BCS national championship game". I did say they would not have won the National Championship. That is my opinion. Unfortunately they didn't get the chance to play the #2 team; nope, they played a 6-5 Michigan team. We will never know how they would have fared vs. the #2 team, just like we will never know if Utah would have beaten Florida in 2008-9. Utah never got the chance to play Florida; but they beat Alabama by more than Florida did. Florida also lost at home to Ole Miss (9-4), while Utah went undefeated. A playoff will clear this up in the future, even though I would prefer an 8 team format. Also, Utah and BYU require a ton of improvement before either will ever be in the discussion in the future. Neither can even finish in the top 25 much less the top 4; dissapointing.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    July 21, 2014 1:24 p.m.

    giantfan:

    "Did you even read the article? What do SMU, Houston or Tulane have on their resumes that trump BYU, besides geography? And Uconn and USF are further away than Provo."

    Besides geography? I think you just answered your own question. So of COURSE I read it. Even better, I UNDERSTOOD it. You? Not so much.

    It doesn't matter that UConn and USF are further away than Provo, because Provo isn't the epicenter of the Big 12. And furthermore, if the Big 12 adds 2 teams, they'll wind up in an East-West split. And in that case, it makes more sense to add teams closer to WVU; not Provo.

  • redthunder Ogden, UT
    July 21, 2014 1:49 p.m.

    @ TALKINSPORTS

    btw, BYU stomped Texas 40-21 last season, the same Texas team that stomped TCU 30-7.

    So how does that prove that BYU would do "worse" in the Big 12 than TCU?

    ----------------------

    That logic is flawed in so many ways. Utah beat Stanford, who was the Pac 12 Champion, so under your logic Utah should have beaten every other Pac school except USC. Which we both know was not the case.
    BYU would struggle mightily in the Big XII, sure the cougs might beat Texas every once in a while, but the rigors of playing P5 teams week after week wears a team down. Especially a team trying to adjust to such an increase in competition. Just ask TCU and Utah.

  • 2020 Herriman, UT
    July 21, 2014 1:51 p.m.

    @Ys Little Brother
    Those stats are great, but prove very little. You left out:
    Head to Head
    Kyle 6
    Bronco 4.
    Especially when you look at the years since Utah went to the PAC 12 and BYU went independent. Utah could have easily have done better, as well, or worse, than BYU with their schedule, in each of those seasons. Same goes for BYU if they had been playing Utah's schedule. Don't forget, Bronco was BYU's second choice.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 21, 2014 2:28 p.m.

    @Y's little brother

    In the PAC-12 Utah is 18-19 overall, Cal 11-26. Go ahead and spin it!

    Actually, AP poll was part of the BCS poll until 2004. It changed after the following:

    "In the 2003, the BCS system broke down when the final BCS standings ranked the USC #3 while the two human polls in the system had ranked USC #1.

    As a result, USC did not play in the BCS' [title] game. After defeating another highly ranked team, Michigan [in a bowl game], the AP Poll kept USC #1 while the Coaches Poll was contractually obligated to select the winner of the BCS game."

    Regardless, AP poll (like any other poll) is indirectly affected by the BCS rules that prevents ANY mid-major team ever precipitating in the national title game. Had that BCS system been in place in 1984?

    "With the way the [BCS] system is now, there's no question we wouldn't have been No. 1. We probably would have gone to a better bowl, and that would have been great, but there would have been four teams higher than us in the polls." -- Robbie Bosco

    Like I said, don't let facts from telling your story.

  • LonestarRunner Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2014 2:33 p.m.

    redthunder

    "That logic is flawed in so many ways. Utah beat Stanford, who was the Pac 12 Champion, so under your logic Utah should have beaten every other Pac school except USC."

    Isn't that the logic Utah fans use when claiming that Utah was better than BYU simply because the Utes won a narrow head-to-head meeting early in the season?

    It's fun watching Utah fans debunk their own theories.

    ------------

    2020

    Overall

    Bronco 2 MWC championships, Kyle 1
    Bronco 4 AP Top 25 finishes, Kyle 2
    Bronco 3 11+ win seasons, Kyle 1
    Bronco 9 bowls, Kyle 7

    Bronco 9-9(50%) versus PAC 12 teams; Kyle 13-21(38%)

    Overall Bronco > Kyle

    It's pure speculation on the part of Utah fans that BYU would have struggled as much as Utah has, if BYU had played Utah's schedule.

    The truth is, you have no proof, simply wishful thinking to justify your own pathetic PAC 12 record.

  • 2BCSWINS West of I15, UT
    July 21, 2014 2:36 p.m.

    @Tayson4for55....."Or, you know... maybe we went independent because we make 3 times as much money as being a MWC member. Or that we get way more exposure. Or that we play better schedules. Or that we play all over the country instead of in Wyoming and Colorado every year. Or that pretty much every aspect of independence (with the exception of no conference title to play for) is light years better than being in the MWC.

    To say we went independent because utah went to the Pac-12? Please. That doesn't even begin to make sense."

    Who is we? What postion do you play?

  • LonestarRunner Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2014 2:44 p.m.

    Uteology

    Thanks for admitting, in a roundabout way, that the AP poll is completely independent of the BCS, as would be the Coaches poll, if it weren't "contractually obligated" to vote for the winner of the BCS championship game.

    In other words, the sportswriters and coaches still use their own individual criteria for deciding which team is most deserving of being voted #1, just as they did in 1984.

    You can claim that the AP voters are "indirectly affected" by the BCS rules, but the fact that they chose USC over the winner of the BCS championship game is proof that that is just your own biased opinion.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 21, 2014 2:50 p.m.

    phoenix
    Gilbert, AZ

    Spokane Ute

    "If BYU would have had their 1984 season in the BCS era, they wouldn't have won the National Championship..."

    There's absolutely no way of proving that the #1 team in both the AP and Coaches final regular season polls wouldn't have been included in the BCS championship game.

    --------------

    Actually there is. In 2003 USC which was ranked #1 in both polls but the computer polls ranked them #3 in the BCS poll. Thus no BCS title game.

    What do you think BYU would have been ranked by the computers with a #104 SOS in the BCS poll considering USC SOS was #19 in 2003.

    Find out what the formula was the computers used and you can determine where BYU would have been ranked in the BCS system, I guarantee you that it wouldn't be #1 or #2.

  • CordonBleu Park City, UT
    July 21, 2014 3:08 p.m.

    Uteology

    Don't claim that your biased, BYU-hating opinions are "facts".

    You have absolutely no proof that if BYU had finished #1 in the final regular season AP and Coaches polls that BYU wouldn't have been invited to the BCS championship game.

    Bosco's statement is simply his own personal opinion, at that moment, and doesn't "prove" anything.

    To make your 1984 BCS scenario completely accurate, you'd have to not only apply the "BCS rules" to 1984, you'd also have to apply them to 1979 through 1983 as well, when BYU was building the resume that earned BYU a national championship.

    Which, of course, means #7 BYU 1983 would very likely have qualified for a BCS bowl under the current BCS rules, setting the stage for BYU's 1984 national championship run.

    It's just like Dr. Brown's time-space continuum. Everything happens in context and it's impossible to judge individual events without considering the complete context in which they happened.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    July 21, 2014 3:25 p.m.

    Uteology

    Let's not mix apples and oranges.

    In the PAC-12, Utah is 9-18 in conference.

    Versus PAC 12 teams, Bronco is 9-9.

    --------------

    "Actually there is. In 2003 USC which was ranked #1 in both polls but the computer polls ranked them #3 in the BCS poll. Thus no BCS title game."

    Sorry, but your fundamental premises is completely flawed.

    BYU 1984 wouldn't have been vying for a championship against teams in the 2003 season, they would have been vying for a championship against Oklahoma, which lost to Kansas, against Washington and Nebraska, which didn't even win their conference championships, and against Florida, which wasn't even eligible to play in a bowl.

    To claim that the consensus #1-ranked, only undefeated team in the country wouldn't have been chosen to fill one of the two slots in the national championship game is ludicrous.

    If BYU hadn't been contractually obligated to play in the Holiday Bowl, it's a given that #1 BYU would have played #2 Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 21, 2014 3:43 p.m.

    @LonestarRunner

    The difference, the BCS system would filter the 1984 team into what it really was, a pretender much like the 2007 Hawaii team.

    To say that the 1984 BYU team would even sniff a BCS title game or a #1 ranking in any poll is ridiculous. Just look at BYU's 2009 team, they accomplished more on the field than your 1984 team yet couldn't even make the top 10.

  • Taysom4Heisman Heber City, UT
    July 21, 2014 3:55 p.m.

    @2BCSWINS

    "Who is we? What postion do you play?"

    Is that really all you found about my comment that you didn't like?

    I guess that's a compliment that my comment made sense. You must not be much of a sports fan, but people say "we" all the time when talking about their team.

    Maybe I'm just a little more involved in BYU football than the average fan, but I consider myself a part of the BYU football family, so "we" makes perfect sense.

  • Tomahawk Red North Salt Lake, UT
    July 21, 2014 4:08 p.m.

    Rockwell
    Baltimore, MD

    Based on revenue alone, it's likely Utah will always remain firmly entrenched at the bottom of the PAC 12 with Washington St and Colorado.

    -------

    So it's come to this? Revenue smack in a conference that you've been rejected by?

    That alone already gives Utah the victory.

    LOL!

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    July 21, 2014 4:13 p.m.

    Uteology

    "The difference, the BCS system would filter the 1984 team into what it really was, a pretender much like the 2007 Hawaii team."

    That's nothing but your BYU-hating opinion. BYU 1984 was nothing like Hawaii 2007. Over 30 players from that 1984 BYU team eventually played in the NFL, far more than Utah's 2004 and 2008 teams COMBINED!

    Don't forget that two-thirds of the "BCS formula" is made up of coaches and sportswriters who voted BYU #1 in both polls.

    To claim that BYU wouldn't have been in the title game is to claim something that is impossible to prove..

    At the very least, BYU would have played in a major bowl against another Top 10 team and with a win would have cemented the AP national championship.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 21, 2014 4:32 p.m.

    skywalker
    Palo Alto, CA

    Uteology

    Let's not mix apples and oranges.

    In the PAC-12, Utah is 9-18 in conference.

    Versus PAC 12 teams, Bronco is 9-9.

    ------------

    Yes, lets not mix playing 2-3 PAC-12 teams a year (apples) and playing 9 PAC-12 teams a year (oranges).

    Kyle as Mid-Major Coach: 4-3 (57%)
    Bronco as Mid-Major Coach: 9-9 (50%)

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 21, 2014 4:34 p.m.

    Wskywalker
    To claim that the consensus #1-ranked, only undefeated team in the country wouldn't have been chosen to fill one of the two slots in the national championship game is ludicrous.

    -------------

    "With the way the [BCS] system is now, there's no question we wouldn't have been No. 1. We probably would have gone to a better bowl, and that would have been great, but there would have been four teams higher than us in the polls." -- Robbie Bosco

    “That's essentially what happened last season to BYU's rival, Utah, which finished its regular season unbeaten but never rose higher than No. 6 in the BCS standings. The Utes earned a lucrative trip to the Sugar Bowl, but despite stunning SEC runner-up Alabama, had to settle for No. 2 in the final AP poll [16 votes] behind 13-1 Florida, which toppled 12-2 Oklahoma in the BCS Championship Game.” -- SI

  • Tomahawk Red San Francisco, CA
    July 21, 2014 4:42 p.m.

    Uteology
    East Salt Lake City, Utah

    What do you think BYU would have been ranked by the computers with a #104 SOS in the BCS poll considering USC SOS was #19 in 2003.

    ----------

    Certainly not #1 or #2. Computers would have ranked BYU somewhere between #15 and #25.

  • Tomahawk Red San Francisco, CA
    July 21, 2014 4:46 p.m.

    CordonBleu
    Park City, UT

    To make your 1984 BCS scenario completely accurate, you'd have to not only apply the "BCS rules" to 1984, you'd also have to apply them to 1979 through 1983 as well, when BYU was building the resume that earned BYU a national championship.

    --------

    Nope. That's just more bloo-tainted spin.

    Not a single football national champion has EVER had ANY of their prior years taken into account when evaluating the validity of that season's results.

    Frankly, that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen posted from a BYU fan attempting to legitimize that fluke NC.

    FSU in 2013, Bama in 2012, Auburn in 2011... nor the rest of the NC winners have ever had to justify their titles with what happened in the 3-4 years previous.

    How ridiculously absurd.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 21, 2014 4:47 p.m.

    Uteology

    Good point. There have been a number of TCU, Utah and Boise State teams that have gone undefeated (in the BCS era); played a tougher schedule than BYU did in '84, and didn't get the chance to play for the NC. They also beat a better team in their bowl game than BYU (6-5 MIchigan) did. Not BYU's fault, but absolutely true!

  • redthunder Ogden, UT
    July 21, 2014 4:57 p.m.

    @ Lonestar Runner

    Isn't that the logic Utah fans use when claiming that Utah was better than BYU simply because the Utes won a narrow head-to-head meeting early in the season?

    It's fun watching Utah fans debunk their own theories.
    -----------------
    When Utah beats Stanford 4 in a row, 9 out of the last 12, and 13 of the last 20 then we'll know Utah is the better team. As for now, you're right, one matchup doesn't say a whole lot...

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 21, 2014 5:22 p.m.

    @Skywalker

    That team didn't play anybody. Not a single ranked team. One team with an above .500 record and a 6-6 Michigan team for the title. Pretty desperate when you have to pull out the "we put x amount of players in the NFL" and use the all Caps card. Utah, Boise State and TCU all went undefeated, beat a top 10 team in their bowl, yet didn't win the NC. What in the world makes you think BYU would have finished any different? Especially considering the weak schedule they played. The denial that comes from the vast majority of BYU fans never ceases to amaze me.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 21, 2014 5:58 p.m.

    @skywalker

    That's nothing but your BYU-hating opinion. BYU 1984 was nothing like Hawaii 2007. Over 30 players from that 1984 BYU team eventually played in the NFL, far more than Utah's 2004 and 2008 teams COMBINED!

    --------------

    Over exaggerate much?

    I will call you out, name these 30 NFL players that played on the 1984 team.

    According to Chase Stuart only 13 played in the NFL.
    Source: BYU’s 1984 Championship (May 11, 2010)

    NFL shows 27 drafted from 1985-1991. From the 1984 roster (source BYU), the following are missing: Brian Mitchell, Chris Smith, Neal Fort, Mohammed Elewonibi, Jason Buck, Rodney Rice, Warren Wheat, Steve Kaufusi. So that drops your number from 30 to 19 players just doing a quick comparison.

    Nope. It was Robbie Bosco's opinion that at best BYU would have been ranked #5, I said added the Hawaii part. But I guess your opinion is more valid. Rise and Shout!

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 21, 2014 6:19 p.m.

    @skywalker

    Don't forget that two-thirds of the "BCS formula" is made up of coaches and sportswriters who voted BYU #1 in both polls.

    ------------

    The same who voted USC #1 in both polls yet BCS ranked them #3. Let me try again, maybe this will help:

    2003 USC:
    Final regular season ranking: Coaches #1 and AP #1
    When #19 SOS is used in a BCS formula, final ranking: #3

    1984 BYU:
    Final regular season ranking: Coaches #1 and AP #1
    When #104 SOS is used in a BCS formula, final ranking: #3? How so, see USC with SOS #19.

    Maybe #4, but more likely 5-10.

    Also the multi-year 1979 to 1983 leading to BYU's 1984 title season argument, see Boise State 2002-2009 to #4 14-0. Boise State was more dominate and accomplished more than BYU yet couldn't even sniff a #1 ranking lit alone a NC title game. They couldn't even match Utah's 2008 "one off" season.

  • AZUTE1 Mesa, AZ
    July 21, 2014 8:06 p.m.

    Texas Christian, Boise State, and Utah have been tearing it up over the last decade, but in 1984 Brigham Young did something none of those other "Little Big" teams have even gotten a legitimate shot at: they finished #1. Unfortunately, BYU '84 differs from those other teams in another way too: they did not play a single ranked opponent. The only so-called "national champion" that didn't (though Oklahoma came very close in 1956).

    BYU's 1984 opponents went 61-85-3, placing their schedule 96th amongst 98 division 1A schools. And yet their performance was as weak as their schedule. They won five games by a touchdown or less, from a 20-14 win at 3-7-1 Pitt in their opener to a 24-17 win against 6-6 Michigan in the Holiday Bowl-- by far the worst bowl opponent ever faced by a so-called "national champion." How bad was Michigan? They finished 6th in the Big Ten, and the Big Ten was a horrid 12-15 against nonconference opponents and 1-5 in bowl games. The only conference in the country that was as bad as the Big 10 was the WAC itself.

  • Marked it Down Park City, UT
    July 21, 2014 9:38 p.m.

    Uteology

    "1984 BYU:
    Final regular season ranking: Coaches #1 and AP #1
    When #104 SOS is used in a BCS formula, final ranking: #3? How so, see USC with SOS #19.

    Maybe #4, but more likely 5-10."

    The point is, you have absolutely no proof how things would have actually played out based on your BYU-hating theories; all you have is your own biased opinion.

    Whereas, BYU has proof that it finished #1 in both the AP and Coaches poll.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 21, 2014 11:29 p.m.

    @Marked it Down

    For the love of... for the MILLIONTH time it was Robbie Bosco's opinion.

    Just because you log in with a different screen name doesn't make your opinion more valid than Robbie Bosco's opinion.

    You do know who he is, right?

    Hint: He played QB at BYU...in 19....8?

  • poyman Lincoln City, OR
    July 22, 2014 1:16 a.m.

    Wow... a lot of effort here by the hapless ute fans to discount BYU's National Championship in 1984 but yet all of the record books still show the Cougs as the #1 team in all of the land... That National Championship trophy is still in the case and the banner is still in Provo... Something that Utah will never have.... However, if you ever want to come and see what one looks like in person, c'mon down, we'd be happy to give you a tour... We can also show you what a player from your school looks like when they receive the Heisman Trophy, the Doak Walker Trophy, and the Outland trophy...

    @spokaneute

    How quickly we forget that that 1984 6-5 Michigan team finished a close #2 to Oklahoma for the National Championship the following year... Oh, and the team that finished 2nd to BYU in 1984 (University of Washington... a team that the utes have NEVER beaten were drubbed by the Cougs by 30 points just 9 months after they finished 2nd to the Cougs in 1984...

    So just keep on spinning, but the 1984 NC trophy will always remain in Provo.

  • Utes11 Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 22, 2014 1:18 a.m.

    “I want to be clear that I’ve been told multiple times by multiple sources the Big 12 isn’t interested in BYU or adding any other non-Power 5 schools for that matter,” [said ESPN's Bret McMurphy.

  • poyman Lincoln City, OR
    July 22, 2014 1:32 a.m.

    @uteology and navel

    It's amazing... the truth has been laid out for all to read and you guys still deny it... In fact you can look it up in 30 seconds on line...

    uteology, fyi... Kansas was never going to be part of the pac12 with or without Texas...

    Here's a quote from Rivals in May/June of 2010... "Rivals.com reported Thursday that Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and Colorado would join the PAC-10 under the plan..."

    Colorado is the only one who came and their AD as much admitted that it was an escape from the heavy handed Longhorns...

    The fact that you want to deny this really speaks to the validity of some of the other things that you have written...

    Research can be your friend... Try it. It will help make some of your comments a little more persuasive.

    Those are the teams that got invited...

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    July 22, 2014 7:25 a.m.

    @poyman

    Indeed the 1984 NC trophy will always remain in Provo...

    It's also true the 1984 NC trophy affords BYU no relevance in the modern era of college football...

    Thus, no P5 invite...

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 22, 2014 7:31 a.m.

    Poyman

    Spinning it? By stating facts and statistics from 1984; just like others are? You are actaully referencing what Michigan and Washington did the following year to justify 1984? What in the world does Utah vs. Washington have to do with BYU's 1984 season? You actually have the nerve to say I'm spinning things? Good Grief! I guess if backing up one's position with statistics and facts is "spinning", then yes; I am. Answer these two questions: 1) Name another National Champion that played a weaker schedule? 2) Name another National Champion that played a weaker bowl opponent. Again, not BYU's fault but absolutely true. Quick, hit the spin cycle.

  • mussingaround Palo Alto, CA
    July 22, 2014 7:31 a.m.

    No BYU fan has ever claimed that BYU 1984 was the best national champion of all time, or even the best team in 1984, but what is undeniable is this:

    Of the 111 Division 1-A football teams that competed in 1984, BYU was considered to be the most deserving team to be named national champion by the majority of the national panel of sportswriters and coaches who voted on the AP and Coaches polls.

    All five major selecting organizations selected BYU #1, and BYU was listed #1 in James Howells' power rankings, with a .524 (#77) SOS:

    Rank / Team / Power Ranking / SOS
    1 BYU 0.86 0.524
    2 Wash 0.837 0.587
    3 Fla 0.835 0.726
    4 Neb 0.83 0.624
    5 Okla St 0.786 0.609
    6 BC 0.785 0.675
    7 Okla 0.784 0.652
    8 SMU 0.772 0.61
    9 MD 0.747 0.726
    10 USC 0.744 0.73

    ----------------

    btw,

    Utah 2008, had a Power Ranking of #5, with a .514 SOS
    Utah 2004, had a Power Ranking of #4, with a .504 SOS

    Despite all the bluster from the hill, Utah 2004 and 2008 both had worse SOS's than BYU 1984.

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    July 22, 2014 7:37 a.m.

    Uteology

    When asked immediately after the 1984 Holiday Bowl if he felt that BYU deserved to be #1, Robbie Bosco answered emphatically, "YES"!

    More importantly, the majority of AP sportswriters and college coaches agreed with Robbie and confirmed that by selecting BYU as the #1 team in both polls.

    I know it stings for you to admit it, but neither poll has ever felt that highly about any Utah team.

  • Y's little brother Sandy, UT
    July 22, 2014 7:46 a.m.

    Howie

    3 bowls to 1 says that BYU is more relevant in the Independent/PAC 12 era than the P5 bottom dwelling Utes.

    Being perennial cannon fodder for the big boys of the PAC 12 doesn't make U relevant, it only makes U a convenient punching bag to pad their conference records.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 22, 2014 7:50 a.m.

    @ mussingaround

    Yet no BYU fan has ever admitted they played the weakest schedule of all National Champions, or the weakest bowl opponent of all National Champions. Can you admit that? That's my point.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 22, 2014 7:54 a.m.

    @ Y's little brother

    Yet your team has lost to Utah 4 years in a row. So what does that say about BYU? Talk about a convenient punching bag; Ouch! Your screen name in quite ironic. Especially the way Utah pushes BYU around. I notice you never bring that up though. Now that's curious? Yep, rely on others to do what you can't; beat Utah!

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    July 22, 2014 8:05 a.m.

    @Y's little brother

    Does the Big12 know about those three bowl games? Because when they find out surely a BYU invite Wil be on the way.

    But wait... maybe they know about the four recent beatdowns BYU took at the hands of a "bottom feeder".

    Yeah... that must be it... no invite for you.

  • Y's little brother Sandy, UT
    July 22, 2014 8:09 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    "Yet no BYU fan has ever admitted they played the weakest schedule of all National Champions"

    Why should any BYU fan admit something that is impossible to prove?

    Even if BYU did play the supposedly "weakest" schedule of all national champions (debateble, especially if you consider the schedules of all of the "national championships" of the 1900's through the 1950's), it still doesn't invalidate BYU's national championship, nor does it prove that BYU was the weakest team ever to win a national championship, which was recognized by all five major selecting organizations of the day including the AP and Coaches polls.

  • mussingaround Palo Alto, CA
    July 22, 2014 8:32 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    Howell rates Florida State's 2013 SOS at .533, not significantly better than BYU's 1984 SOS of .524, and that's your final "BCS era" national champion.

  • mussingaround Palo Alto, CA
    July 22, 2014 8:37 a.m.

    howie

    "...maybe they know about the four recent beatdowns BYU took at the hands of a "bottom feeder"."

    It's doubtful that BYU's recent record versus Utah is even on the Big 12's radar, but they absolutely know about BYU's beat down of Texas and BYU's win over Oklahoma.

    btw, three bowl games is much more relevant than one, regardless of how you spin it.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    July 22, 2014 10:03 a.m.

    Are you kidding!

    Any argument about SOS in 1984 by BYU fans is an absolute joke.
    Basically you are comparing the WAC to the Pac 10, Big 8, SWC, SEC, ACC & Big East of 1984.
    BYU would have had their clock cleaned playing in any of those conferences.

    And you selectively ignore how the national champion selection process was changed, after BYU won it's fraudulent cupcake title.

    And comparing the SOS of Florida St. this past season to BYU in 1984 is also a joke. Hello! I think the competition is just a little different these days.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    July 22, 2014 10:05 a.m.

    @mussingaround

    And having a seat at the big boy table of college football is more relevant than exclusion...

    no matter how you spin it.

    If that were not true Bronco wouldn't be asking for a b12 invitation.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    July 22, 2014 10:06 a.m.

    mussingaround
    Palo Alto, CA
    howie

    "...maybe they know about the four recent beatdowns BYU took at the hands of a "bottom feeder"."

    It's doubtful that BYU's recent record versus Utah is even on the Big 12's radar, but they absolutely know about BYU's beat down of Texas and BYU's win over Oklahoma.

    btw, three bowl games is much more relevant than one, regardless of how you spin it.

    ___________

    Apparently nothing BYU has done will impress the Big 12. Otherwise they would be a member by now.
    40+ years and counting and no official conference invite, regardless of how you spin it.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 22, 2014 10:29 a.m.

    @BlueCoug
    Orem, UT

    Uteology

    When asked immediately after the 1984 Holiday Bowl if he felt that BYU deserved to be #1, Robbie Bosco answered emphatically, "YES"!

    --------------

    When Robbie Bosco was asked 20+ years later that would BYU be a national champion under the BCS system, he emphatically said, "NO!" In fact, he said his team would be ranked #5.

    What's so difficult to understand, this is a different era. I guess since you have no BCS Resume to speak of some in Cougar Nation are having a hard time comprehending the difference.

  • poyman Lincoln City, OR
    July 22, 2014 10:49 a.m.

    @ute fans...

    So much effort expended and so little pay back....

    Some facts:

    . BYU was the National Champion in 1984 by a unanimous consensus of the 5 major polling entities.
    . They will always be the 1984 NCs regardless of how hard y'all try to change that or down play it.
    . It is beyond doubtful that the utes will ever be NCAA Champions regardless of what Conference they are in.
    . The utes have beaten the Cougs 4 times in a row... (big wow)... The Cougs have had 3 win streaks in the past 40 years that equal or beat that... (72' through 77', 6 games... 79' through 87', 9 games... 89' through 91' 4 games...).
    . If we were to talk about sports dominance in Basketball it would be even more embarrassing for the utes.

    While it is true that the Cougs don't belong to one of the so called P5 conferences... It is also true that the primary reason is because of the fact that it is a faith based institution (in a faith that is not well accepted on the liberal west coast among Academia, and in the southern Bible belt... To deny that is to deny the obvious.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 22, 2014 11:03 a.m.

    @BlueCoug

    I know it stings for you to admit it, but neither poll has ever felt that highly about any Utah team.

    --------------------

    One can argue the same about P5 leagues towards BYU:

    "When ACC and SEC commissioners told reporters those leagues [consider] BYU as a [mid-major].... The reaction in [BYU] was predictable. Some Cougar fans got their undies tangled running to their minivans."

    Was that you that Dick Harmon was referring to?

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    July 22, 2014 11:12 a.m.

    @poyman

    TCU and Baylor are faith based Institution's already in the b12. Notre Dame partners with the ACC... and with just a phone call ND could be a member of any conference in the country.

    Why not BYU? Because BYU is not nearly as relevant as its fans think it is... to deny that is to deny the obvious.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 22, 2014 11:15 a.m.

    Mussingaround

    When you come on here and state that BYU's 1984 schedule was comporable to FSU schedule, last year, you lose all credability. Not that there was a lot there to begin with. Congrats.

    Wacpadding

    You are spot on! Seems like desperation and spin city, has become the counter to the debate.

    Facts:
    1) BYU went undefeated and won the National Champiconship in 1984. They were the only undefeated team.
    2) In the BCS era; Boise State, TCU and Utah have went undefeated. All played tougher schedules, beat multiple teams with winning records and a top 10 Bowl opponent. None won the NC.
    3) BYU has never played in a BCS bowl.
    4) No NC, in the last 50 years of college football, has played a weaker schedule to get to that game. Name any other NC team that only beat one team that finished with a winning record?
    5) No NC has played a weaker bowl opponent. Name any other NC team that won the title by beating a team that finished 6-6?

    U's little Brother

    Points 4) and 5) prove exactly what I'm saying. Please answer the questions with information to back it up. You can't, that's the fact of the matter.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 22, 2014 11:21 a.m.

    Poyman

    So you honestly believe that the Power 5 conferences won't accept BYU because they are Mormon based? Really? So demanding TV rights, geographical location, and choosing what days you will and will not play on have nothing to do with it? No major conference is going to take a school that comes in making demands instead of concessions. Utah had to take huge TV concessions in the begining.

  • Snack PAC Olympus Cove, Utah
    July 22, 2014 11:39 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    "When you come on here and state that BYU's 1984 schedule was comporable to FSU schedule, last year, you lose all credability. Not that there was a lot there to begin with."

    Mussingaround didn't state any such thing, he just posted the SOS ratings from an authoritative source that you appearantly don't agree with.

    ---------------------

    It's laughable that our friends from the hill are still soooo obsessed with BYU's 1984 National Championship, an accomplishment that they, in their wildests dreams, could never envision happening on the hill.

    Despite all of the weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth on the hill, BYU's Crystal Football National Championship Trophy, representing the crème de la crème of major college football achievement, will always remain proudly on display in BYU's Legacy Hall of Fame.

    --------

    btw, it's interesting that Spokane Ute had to alter his declaration about weak schedules... now that he's discovered that several previous national champions had MUCH weaker schedules than BYU's national championship team.

  • Snack PAC Olympus Cove, Utah
    July 22, 2014 11:51 a.m.

    "So you honestly believe that the Power 5 conferences won't accept BYU because they are Mormon based?"

    Absolutely!

    Everyone knows that certain schools in the PAC 10 refused to accept a religiously-based school into their secular society.

    The MPSF has no problem working around BYU's no Sunday play policy and that includes the top dogs in the PAC 12, Stanford, UCLA and USC.

    BYU has a larger fanbase, a larger television footprint, greater national cachet, and a much better overall athletic program, so it's obvious to anyone not wearing crimson goggles that the religious factor was the main factor in the PAC 12 inviting Utah, instead of BYU.

    Research University status was simply a convenient excuse made up for media consumption. The PAC 10 was ready and willing to accept Oklahoma State with open arms when the PAC 10 / Big 12 South merger talks were going on, even though Okla St has the exact same High Research status as BYU. But, the PAC 10 was not willing to take Baylor, which is the reason Colorado was hastily invited in the dead of the night, to shut Baylor out of the picture.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    July 22, 2014 11:57 a.m.

    @Spokane Ute

    You raise an interesting point.

    Utah neither requested nor required special treatment from the PAC because it's institutional values aligned with those of the other PAC members... it's an institutional fit.

    BYU requests and requires special treatment because it's institutional values differ from those of the other PAC and Big12 members... it's not an institutional fit.

    That's okay... BYU should honor it's institutional values.

    But BYU should also stop trying to force it's values on an organization where they don't fit... stop trying to force a square peg in a round hole.

  • royalblue Alpine, UT
    July 22, 2014 12:03 p.m.

    Spokane Ute

    Having an undefeated season isn't the criteria for winning a national championship.

    Convincing the majority of poll voters that you are the most deserving team is the real criteria.

    BYU did that with the resume they built from 1979 to 1984.

    The next time Utah has five Top 12 finishes, back-to-back Top 7 finishes, and finishes an undefeated season on a 24-game win streak, come talk to us.

    Until then, your paltry flash-in-the-pan seasons of 2004 and 2008 simply weren't good enough to impress the poll voters that U were the most deserving national championship contender.

    Sorry to burst your crimson bubble, but that's just the way it is.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 22, 2014 12:04 p.m.

    "BYU has a larger [self-righteous] fanbase, a larger television footprint [on a station nobody watches], greater national cachet [i.e, egos that would make a Longhorn blush], a much better overall athletic program [go waterpolo!] and [a much weaker research component and world university ranking]"

    Snack:

    Tell the full story and "it's obvious to anyone" that there are more than just "religious factors" in the PAC-12 inviting Utah instead of BYU.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 22, 2014 12:08 p.m.

    Howard S

    Thanks and Nice job of summing it up. That is really the long and short of it.

    Top Undefeated Seasons by non P5 schools:
    1) Utah, 2008, beat 3 teams that finished in the top 25, then #6 Alabama.
    2) BSU, 2009, beat #11, Oregeon, then #6 TCU.
    3) TCU, 2010, beat #23 Utah, then #7 Wisconsin
    4) BSU 2006, beat #11 in bowl game.
    5) Utah 2004, beat #25 in bowl game.

    1984 BYU team?

    Didn't beat a ranked team (final poll) during the season. Beat one team with a winning record. Beat 6-6 Michigan in the bowl game.

    From a purely objective stand point, theres no comparison. I have no problem admitting that the TCU and BSU season referenced above were more impressive than Utah's 2004 season. Played better bowl opponed and/or more ranked teams. It's called be honest and objective. I don't know why BYU fans have so much trouple admitting this; but the numbers truely speak for them self.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    July 22, 2014 12:16 p.m.

    re:MyPerspective

    dream on. Utah would still be in the MWC had it not had Urban Myer come and turn the ship around. Kyle just followed on Urban's coat tails for a year or two. Those two BCS wins are THE factor that landed the U into the Pac 12. Had the U not had Urban Myer and just been a middle of the road MWC team as they were before Urban came then sorry Charlie but there would have been no reason to take the U into the Pac 12. My guess is Boise State would have had a better chance than the U at going to the Pac 12 were it not for the two BCS wins. BYU will absoulutley get the Big 12 invite if it does what the U did - win the big games consistently for a few years. The Y has the national following and the big stadium so it is a no brainer for this to happen....but you gotta win baby as Al Davis once said. I am happy for the U being in the Pac 12 and my point is ...they EARNED it by winning.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 22, 2014 12:23 p.m.

    Royal Blue

    Did I ever say that having an undefeated season was a pre-requsite? LSU won it with two loses, yet played the #2 team to win it. I merely pointed out what a weak resume BYU had that year. You won't burst my bubble; I have no problem with the truth and facts. You seem to struggle with the facts that I continue to state: BYU played the weakest schedule of all NC's and played the weakest bowl opponent of all NCs. It wasn't there fault, but it's a Fact! Now who's bursting who's bubble?

  • backpacn Sandy, UT
    July 22, 2014 12:29 p.m.

    Spokane Ute

    "Top Seasons" are, and always will be, determined by where you finish in the final polls.

    A gold medal won in the 1984 Olympics is still more impressive and more coveted than a silver medal won in the 2008 Olympics, even though you may have run faster, jumped higher, or performed a better routine in a more recent event.

    It's interesting that you use win's over "ranked opponents" as your measuring stick for a "Top Season", but then conveniently choose to completely ignore BYU's and Utah's final rankings, as if the poll voters suddenly developed a brain freeze when it came to ranking BYU and Utah.

    Why is it so hard for you to understand that it's the same people who's opinion you so value, when it's convenient, yet so casually dismiss, when it doesn't support your pre-determine narrative?

  • Y's little brother Sandy, UT
    July 22, 2014 12:48 p.m.

    Spokane Ute

    BYU would have gladly played the #2 team in 1984, but they were contractually obligated to play in the Holiday Bowl. Both Washington and Nebraska were invited to play BYU in the Holiday Bowl, but both chose to play lower-ranked teams in more lucrative bowls.

    The poll voters decided not to penalize BYU for being forced to play a 6-5 Michigan team, instead of a more highly ranked team.

    BYU did everything they could to convince the voters that they were the most deserving national championship candidate, and after over a month of careful scrutiny, the poll voters agreed.

    Five Top 12 finishes in a six year period gave poll voters ample proof that BYU's undefeated 1984 season wasn't just a fluke, unlike Utah's 2004 and 2008 seasons, which were preceded and followed by years of unranked mediocrity.

  • Y's little brother Sandy, UT
    July 22, 2014 12:50 p.m.

    JohnInSLC

    Tell the full story and it's obvious to anyone that Utah wasn't invited because of its athletic prowess.

  • truthsandwich The Bubble, UT
    July 22, 2014 1:05 p.m.

    @Mussing

    "Despite all the bluster from the hill, Utah 2004 and 2008 both had worse SOS's than BYU 1984."

    Barely beating the weakest teams in the country, followed by a horrible opponent in a non-major bowl. This was a stronger season than the 2008 undefeated BCS-Busting Alabama-clobbering Utes?

    LOL

    Can you name a single BCS Bowl-winning team that had a schedule as weak as the 1984 cougars? Not even a championship- just any BCS Bowl?

    Utah fans don't deny that BYU was awarded a National Championship in 1984, but the level of denial from some cougar fans about the nature of that "championship" is hilariously entertaining.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 22, 2014 1:26 p.m.

    "Utah wasn't invited because of its athletic prowess."

    little brother:

    Another coug "fan" in denial about the whole 2-time BCS-buster, 9-of-12 thing, eh?

  • truthsandwich The Bubble, UT
    July 22, 2014 1:29 p.m.

    @backpacn

    "A gold medal won in the 1984 Olympics is still more impressive and more coveted than a silver medal won in the 2008 Olympics, even though you may have run faster, jumped higher, or performed a better routine in a more recent event."

    Except, using your analogy, in the 1984 Olympics they gave a gold medal to someone who didn't ever run against any of the fast runners of the day.

    See, they only won their heat, which happened to be against the weakest field of opponents in the entire competition. They never even had the chance to race against even ONE of the 20 fastest runners! And they only barely beat those horrible runners by a hair!

    The Olympic committee realized how ridiculous this was and fixed it so that gold medals could only be earned by runners who had proven themselves better than at least one other good runners. It wasn't a perfect system, but at least it prevented giving ridiculous gold medals to completely unproven competitors.

    The key: It added credibility to the Gold.

    This is why a particular dusty gold medal in 1984 is less impressive than the shiny medals of the tested teams in the modern era.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 22, 2014 1:44 p.m.

    backpackn

    Hmmm, use opponents winning %, during both the regular season and bowl season, then get back to me regarding the comparision. It's very simple to see, through unbiased eyes, that BYU played a weak schedule and a weak bowl opponent. The weakest of any NC. I've yet to see any BYU fan show me a team to counter that position. That's because there isn't one. Name one! As far as valuing your opinion, I could care less.

    U's Little Brother

    I know they would have played the #2 team given the opportunity; like I've said over and over again; it wasn't BYUs fault. It was a broke system, and that season led to major changes.

    Truthsandwich

    The truth is a hard pill for these folks to swallow. They will say anything, and I mean anything to avoid admitting that the 1984 team played the weakest schedule, and weakest bowl opponent of any National Champion. Oh well, we both know it's the truth!

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    July 22, 2014 1:52 p.m.

    truthsandwich

    #1/#1 > #2/#4 regardless of how you slice it

    The real reasons Utah didn't stand a chance of winning a NC in 2008...

    2005, 2006 and 2007

    The national media saw how Utah tanked after 2004 and realized that 2008 was just another flash-in-the-pan season.

    Seriously, getting shut out 0-27 by a 10-loss team in 2007 killed any chance Utah might have had to win a NC in 2008.

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    July 22, 2014 2:11 p.m.

    Gold medal > silver medal

    Crystal Football National Championship Trophy > SOS trophy

    That's just he way it is in the real world.

    BYU proved that they were good enough to deserve winning a consensus national championship... that's more than can be said of any U of U team in history.

    As far as barely beating horrible teams by a hair, your selective memory has obviously forgotten that Utah 2008 barely beat a horrible Michigan(3-9) team 25-23 and a horrible New Mexico(4-8) team 13-10.

  • Marked it Down Park City, UT
    July 22, 2014 2:35 p.m.

    Spokane Ute

    Opponents winning percentage doesn't begin to tell the whole story.

    BYU was already 11-0 and ranked #1 when they played 1-11 Utah State. It was a meaningless extra game that simply added another 11 losses onto the won-loss record of BYU's 1984 opponents.

    Without that extra game, the won-loss record of BYU's 1984 regular season opponents was about the same as the won-loss record of Utah's 2004 regular season opponents.

    The big difference - BYU 1984 won more games (4) against regular season opponents with winning records than Utah 2004, and BYU won a road game against a team that finished #24 in the final AP poll. Utah 2004 only beat three regular season opponents with winning records, none with better than a 7-5 record.

    Utah 2004 and 2008 also benefitted from playing almost all of their toughest regular season games at home. BYU played Hawaii(7-2), in the day, always tough on the island, Air Force(8-4) and Utah(6-5-1) all on the road.

  • AZUTE1 Mesa, AZ
    July 22, 2014 2:58 p.m.

    Texas Christian, Boise State, and Utah have been tearing it up over the last decade, but in 1984 Brigham Young did something none of those other "Little Big" teams have even gotten a legitimate shot at: they finished #1. Unfortunately, BYU '84 differs from those other teams in another way too: they did not play a single ranked opponent. The only so-called "national champion" that didn't (though Oklahoma came very close in 1956).

    BYU's 1984 opponents went 61-85-3, placing their schedule 96th amongst 98 division 1A schools. And yet their performance was as weak as their schedule. They won five games by a touchdown or less, from a 20-14 win at 3-7-1 Pitt in their opener to a 24-17 win against 6-6 Michigan in the Holiday Bowl-- by far the worst bowl opponent ever faced by a so-called "national champion". How bad was Michigan? They finished 6th in the Big Ten, and the Big Ten was a horrid 12-15 against nonconference opponents and 1-5 in bowl games. The only conference in the country that was as bad as the Big 10 was the WAC itself.

  • Tomahawk Red San Francisco, CA
    July 22, 2014 3:14 p.m.

    royalblue
    Alpine, UT

    The next time Utah has five Top 12 finishes, back-to-back Top 7 finishes, and finishes an undefeated season on a 24-game win streak, come talk to us.

    ----------

    Ha ha ha

    The next time Utah has three wins over a top-33 program on three consecutive Fridays in October, and winning by 3 points in each of those games, which were followed by three days of practice and three days of prayer, which allowed them to rise three spots in the three polls, come talk to us.

    What a joke.

  • Tomahawk Red San Francisco, CA
    July 22, 2014 3:16 p.m.

    Rockwell
    Baltimore, MD

    Seriously, getting shut out 0-27 by a 10-loss team in 2007 killed any chance Utah might have had to win a NC in 2008.

    ----------

    I think I can speak for everyone on this board when I say, you are clueless about college football and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, now or ever. Get out.

    LOL

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 22, 2014 3:36 p.m.

    @ AZUTE1

    Thank you for the additional information and fact based post. Totally accurate, very objective; nicely done sir.

    @ Tomahawk Red

    Regarding Rockwell (aka scenic view); Bingo!

    To my BYU counter parts on this thread, we can simply agree to disagree. I used statistics and facts to back up my position which I continue to, and will always stand behind. I have never, ever seen a fan base dance around two simple questions: 1) name a National Champion who played a weaker schedule? 2) Name a National Champion who played a weaker bowl opponent? A simple "there isn't one" would have been an honest answer. Only AZUTE was able to respond with the 1956 O.U. team. It really doesn't show a lot of character when you can't even honestly answer the questions and admit the simple truth regarding the 1984 season.

    Can't we all just get along?

    8-)

    Everyone have a good evening!

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    July 22, 2014 3:39 p.m.

    AZUTE1

    The only thing "so called" about BYU's Consensus National Championship is the whiny, jealous criticism of the so-called "college football experts" on the hill.

    Your analysis is so laughably inconsistent with what really happened during the 1984 college football season that the sportswriters and coaches who actually witnessed the 1984 season wouldn't even recognize the season you're describing.

    You obviously don't understand much about college football if you think that winning close games, especially on the road, is "easy". In fact, those are the very types of games, against "lesser" opponents, that often kill championship seasons.

    #6 Oklahoma's Barry Switzer whined about BYU's schedule, yet Oklahoma(9-2-1) lost to Kansas(5-6) 11-28 and was tied by Texas(7-4-1) 15-15.

    #2 Washington was dominated by USC(9-3) 7-16 and only beat Michigan 20-11, the same Michigan team that BYU beat 24-17 in the Holiday Bowl.

    #3 Florida(9-1-1) was ineligible to play in a bowl.

    #4 Nebraska(9-2) lost to Oklahoma and Syracuse(6-5).

    #5 Boston College(10-2) lost to W VA(8-4) and Penn St(6-5).

    So who was a more deserving NC than undefeated BYU(13-0)?

  • talkinsports Gilbert, AZ
    July 22, 2014 3:52 p.m.

    Tomahawk Red

    Any "fan" who thinks that a perennial mediocre program like Utah's would have a chance of winning a national championship without any momentum coming into the season obviously doesn't have a clue about college football.

    Despite their wins versus "ranked" opponents and their #2 AP finish, the Utes never even got close to actually winning a NC in their best season ever.

    The trophy cases say it best:

    BYU's contains the most iconic trophy in major college football.

    Utah's contains a non-existent SOS trophy.

  • scott Alpine, UT
    July 22, 2014 3:59 p.m.

    Tomahawk Red

    "Texas Christian, Boise State, and Utah have been tearing it up over the last decade..."

    Sorry to burst your crimson bubble, but Utah has been in steady decline since 2008.

    2008(13-0) #2/#4
    2009(10-3) #18/#18
    2010(10-3) ur/#23
    2011(8-5, 4-5) unranked
    2012(5-7, 3-6) bowl less
    2013(5-7, 2-7) bowl less

    TCU and Boise State have also declined precipitously.

    Turn out the lights, the party's over for U.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    July 22, 2014 4:33 p.m.

    Howard S.
    Taylorsville, UT
    @poyman

    TCU and Baylor are faith based Institution's already in the b12. Notre Dame partners with the ACC... and with just a phone call ND could be a member of any conference in the country.

    Why not BYU? Because BYU is not nearly as relevant as its fans think it is... to deny that is to deny the obvious.

    ___________

    Boston College is catholic, they are in the ACC.

  • oaklandaforlife SLC, UT
    July 22, 2014 6:18 p.m.

    Keep dreaming BYU and their fans. Independence is now and forever. Mediocrity is the best it will ever, ever get

  • poyman Lincoln City, OR
    July 22, 2014 6:31 p.m.

    @howard and wacypaddle

    I truly don't believe that y'all are that slow or that out of touch... I think you're just acting that way to support your off the wall claims that BYU is not deserving of a P5 membership... which in itself is ludicrous...

    Any 10 year old that pays attention to college football could tell you that Baylor and TCU have not been excluded from the B12 because their faith happens to be the brand of choice in the bible belt south... it would be like having a P5 conference in Utah and excluding a Baptist institution from it (there would be whaling and gnashing of teeth heard across America).

    As for ND and BC, I'll admit that the Irish are in a league of their own... They deserve the attention they get because of their storied past... As for BC, it helps to have about 70M Catholics in the country... That's about 10X the representation of Mormons in America... I'd bet large sums of money that if the Mormon's membership represented 20% of the country's population that they too could join any conference that they chose.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    July 22, 2014 9:33 p.m.

    @poyman

    For a moment, could you lay aside your sense of faith-based persecution as a reason for the rejection of BYU by the PAC/Big12.

    Look at the issue from the perspective of the conference.

    Both conferences foster the cohesiveness of like minded institutions. One way they do this is by requiring that their members participate in a minimum number of conference sports. Most of those sports play on Sundays. All members accept those conditions.

    BYU comes along and says "Our values are different than yours, we don't play on Sundays, so we want you to modify your conference rules that so that we can participate only in football".

    BYU wants the conference to stray from its institutional value of member cohesion by participating only in football. And, further, BYU wants the non-football sports to accommodate an unbalanced number of participants with the related scheduling and travel partner complications.

    Now, BYU will say these are minor problems and if the conference is unwilling to make concessions it must be because of faith-based reasons.

    But, the question is... why should the conferences compromise their institutional values and accept scheduling complications just to accommodate BYU's differing values?

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    July 22, 2014 10:42 p.m.

    poyman
    Lincoln City, OR
    @howard and wacypaddle

    I truly don't believe that y'all are that slow or that out of touch... I think you're just acting that way to support your off the wall claims that BYU is not deserving of a P5 membership... which in itself is ludicrous...

    Any 10 year old that pays attention to college football could tell you that Baylor and TCU have not been excluded from the B12 because their faith happens to be the brand of choice in the bible belt south... it would be like having a P5 conference in Utah and excluding a Baptist institution from it (there would be whaling and gnashing of teeth heard across America).

    ____________

    poyman your comment is classic and common with several BYU fans here. You don't deserve anything. You earn it. Stop crying that you belong.

    The current Big 12 is almost a revised Southwest Conference. The official conference of corruption back in the day. Baylor was always there. TCU just came back.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    July 22, 2014 10:56 p.m.

    If the BIG 12 really wanted BYU, there would have been invited by now. Don't you think? Long standing schools left. Other schools were invited to join instead of BYU. It can still happen though.
    Just remember, You like to call out Utah fans that the Utes were not the 1st choice of the PAC 12.
    BYU was not the 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice of the PAC !2. Same goes for the BIG 12. There is no way you can spin that.

    When the other conferences start complaining that the BIG 12 does not have a conference title game (actually some are now). Perhaps BYU could be invited as a football only member. In the end it would be up to Texas if that happened. They run the conference.

  • Copacetic Logan, UT
    July 23, 2014 10:11 a.m.

    @ Big 12 Call Yet?

    It's quite hilarious that a Ute fan would actually create an entire anti-byu on-line moniker to push his ongoing anti-BYU diatribe.

    It's also entertaining to read how a local Ute fan tries to sound like a Big 12 Conference expert in trying to speak in it's behalf. But with such laughable attempts, literally no one is being fooled... unless you yourself are. The article speaks for itself, as do official people in the Big 12. It's much easier to believe them than a local anti-BYU partisan.

    Much to the chagrin of many Ute fans, things are continuing to work out quite well for BYU. As the article pointed out, BYU is in the top-15 in the nation in having games broadcast on major national networks.
    Now that they are currently not playing BYU, Utah may've just dropped out of the top 150, since the largest satellite company in the United States doesn't carry PAC12 games.

    BYU will soon be getting even more attention with the exceptional football season they will have this year. The pieces are actually all in place this time. Watch and enjoy.

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    July 23, 2014 11:30 a.m.

    Just the FAX

    "So who was a more deserving NC than undefeated BYU(13-0)?"

    Great summary... and obviously, nobody!

    Despite all of the jealous, whiny speculation from the followers of a program that wasn't even a blip on the national radar in 1984, not one of them has even attempted to make a case for another team being more deserving of winning the 1984 Major College Football National Championship than BYU.

    The majority of AP and Coaches poll voters agreed and the Crystal Football National Championship Trophy proudly displayed in BYU's Legacy Hall of Fame proves it.

  • let's roll LEHI, UT
    July 23, 2014 6:41 p.m.

    225 comments and counting...mission accomplised Mr. Harmon.

    BTW, while joining a conference at some point may become a necessity, I certainly don't think it is at this point, and I for one, am not pining for the B12, the PAC-12, or any other conference for that matter.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    July 24, 2014 8:56 a.m.

    Esay, Washington. They beat a top ranked team in their bowl game. They played a quality schedule.

    Going undefeated by playing weak teams certainly doesn't make you a champion, maybe a chumpion. BYU was a glorified Hawaii a few years later; and that team got throttled by Georgia. Washington would have pounded BYU that year.

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    July 24, 2014 3:29 p.m.

    Spokane Ute

    Yet, after carefully scrutinizing BYU and Washington for over a month, the majority of football experts disagreed with your amateur assessment and selected BYU as the consensus national champion.

    8 months later, BYU pounded Washington 31-3, which is exactly what would have happened if they'd played in 1984.

  • Striker Omaha, NE
    July 24, 2014 8:58 p.m.

    Az ute,
    " Unfortunately, BYU '84 differs from those other teams in another way too: they did not play a single ranked opponent. The only so-called "national champion" that didn't (though Oklahoma came very close in 1956).

    Where do I start? You do no research nor put thought into your comments. Start with the first game of that season. BYU won at #3 Pitt, a true road game and a game ESPN gives BYU credit for helping get ESPN started because it was their first college football game they broadcasted.

    "How bad was Michigan?" They beat #1 Miami that year. Hardly a slouch of a team.

    "The only conference in the country that was as bad as the Big 10 was the WAC itself." Do you know anything about football history? The WAC was one of the premier leagues in its day, and BYU led the way. BYU was one of the top teams in the nation for decades. Ask someone much older than you and they'll tell you how the WAC was a major part of football back in the day.

    Back to the Big XII now...