How can we talk about poverty without referencing the ultimate labor economist
Karl Marx? As usual Marx is the missing dimension. "Capital" and other Marxist literature needs to be read and understood
by people like Mr. Hoffmire.
I think of poverty" as a plague.I don't want to get it. I
don't want my kids to get it. So I try to avoid it. But you can't
completely avoid it. So you need to work on a "cure".The
cure for poverty is... a vibrant, diverse, strong and growing economy.
Actually the cure is a JOB. But the economy is what provides those jobs (not
the Government).=====Marx may be the "missing
dimension". But again, for about the millionth time... where in history has
his theories worked (long term)? If you can tell us about these success
stories... we may start listening. Where is Marx's big success (making
people prosper more than capitalism)?East Germany?North
Korea?Soviet Union?Cuba?China (incomes are still VERY there,
but you should have seen it before they let a little capitalism in... You may
not be old enough to remember what the China of Chairman Mao was like. They are
only recently recovering.... Do you know what the average worker in China gets
paid??? Or North Korea? And you think OUR minimum wage is too low... try
living on what THEY make.
RE: 2 bits "But again, for about the millionth time... where in history
has his theories worked (long term)?"Marx was a critic of
capitalism. Marx was an economist. Marx was a theoretician. Marx was never an
administrator or head of state. Marx was the last of the classical economists
and his theory builds on top of Smith and Ricardo.Marx's
greatest accomplishment was his work "Capital." Marx offers tools to
economists to make sense of the labor/manager relationship.I have
never believed Marx is the last word, but his theoretical work needs to be part
of economics. Interestingly, Piketty's work "Capital in the 21st
Century" while useful shows how much Marx is needed because Piketty
doesn't make use of Marx.You don't know who Marx was.
Hope this helps.
@marxist,I know who Marx is. I've read his books. It's
required reading in college. And his theories have great merit, but nobody
seems to be able to make it work (I think because of the nature of man).But again, for the millionth time... you skipped answering the key
question. Where has it worked?I can show you NUMEROUS civilizations
where capitalism has worked.It works mostly on it's own, by
natural means. It doesn't take a government overseer to force you to live
it right.Fact is... CAPITALISM has brought more people out of
poverty than any system in existence.And history is replete with
examples that PROVE that when MARXISTS take over... the economy, jobs, and
incomes go DOWN (for all but the ruling elites). And it eventually collapses.
====I know you predicted (and hoped) that after 2008 the
end was near for capitalism in America, and it's collapse was inevitable...
And yet, you were wrong. And you still can't see it. Yet our
economy moves on.... providing jobs, and prosperity for Americans and even the
world.Prosperity people living in REAL poverty would leave their
life and family to have.
Is it possible to eradicate poverty?Yes, if we would restore our economic
system to do the job it is supposed to do.Business is the method
that society has chosen to provide for the sharing of costs and benefits of the
society. Private capitalism when properly controlled seems to be a good system
of business. The economic system is working best when all the
people are able to trade their labors for the things they need and want. But
when the world changes and unbalances the distribution of wealth the system
fails to do it's job. We need to provide people with an income
just because they are people. Not so much as to make them rich but enough to
survive and have the ability and opportunity. to gain more. Private
business will not do the job voluntarily. So the government should hire every
unemployed person at sufficient pay to satisfy the need. Business would have to
meet or beat this wage. These jobs would be doing the millions of things we
need. Poverty when eliminated in the U.S. might catch on all over
2 bits.Please show us some civilizations where capitalism has
worked. And tell us just what you mean by "worked".When you
say " CAPITALISM has brought more people out of poverty than any system in
existence", are you ignoring the number of people that capitalism put into
poverty?Mexico is one of the richest nations in the world, I'm
told, but what I've seen most of the people live in poverty.
If you believe God, and that "there is enough and to spare", Thene there should be poor among us.The only explanation for this
is those with the most are not "Sharing".Heavenly Father
isn't going to be happy with some of his spoiled rotten children...
Using Marxists concepts is a guarantee of poverty. China has gone to free
enterprise and capitalism-the private ownership of business and industry and has
brought hundreds of millions out of poverty. Hernando de Soto perhaps the
world's leading economist says poverty in 2/3 of the world's
population is due to lack of property rights. As they are restricted a country
sinks into poverty. Socialism is not the answer. In this country as in many
others there are too many people riding the wagon and the folks pulling it are
labeled the bad guys.
Ultra Bob,Capitalism has been the dominant economic system in the Western
world for, give or take, 400 years. And in that virtual eye blink in the grander
scheme of things it has produced more wealth than all the prior economic systems
put together.It’s also lifted hundreds of millions out of
poverty, educated billions and may—heck, and will someday cure cancer.Success stories...-America -Post feudal Europe
(especially England) England was a great example until about 30 years ago.
Note, there was a corresponding fall in their military might and their
internationally prestige when they changed paths.- Russia (what
happened after Bulshevik revolution... and eventually the old USSR... and
Russia's prosperity during their recent experiment with capitalism)- West Germany vs East Germany- South Korea vs North Korea
South very prosperous and industrious, independent. North poverty, prison
camps, most citizens would starve or freeze without foreign aid (the eventual
fate of most Marxist experiments.Ancient Greece (cradle of
liberty).They clearly believe in ownership, repayment of debts and that
some were wealthier than others and that wealth could be passed from generation
to generation. They traded and had individual ownership.
2 bits. I don't seem to be able to understand your criteria
for the success of a nations economic system. My own criteria of an economic
system is how evenly the wealth of the society is distributed among the people
of the society and how easily the wealth moves about. Early America
when wealth and physical labor were closely aligned would be the zenith of
success for capitalism. Over the years as the world changed, capitalism became
more and more in favor of the rich and powerful. Today, we are in a period of
extreme favoritism of the rich and powerful and more and more wealth is being
concentrated in fewer and fewer people. My judgment is that capitalism in
America has failed and is still failing. West Germany and South
Korea are special case where our military presence changes the normal course of
events. I might accept West Germany but not South Korea. Russia is
a blank for me and Ancient Greece fails because they had slaves and the other
things you mentioned. Thanks for the response.
OK. So, this is how it works. You elect republicans, then they remove all the
banking and stock market regulations, then you let big business rewrite the
labor laws and now flood the country with illegal aliens. This formula has been
well implemented during the Bush years and has destroyed the AMERICAN DREAM.
Have you thanked a Republican lately? Say thank you for destroying my country
and creating a poverty level in American like no other time in history. Good
quality tradesmen are making 1970's wages, disgusting. Just go live in a
South American country and see the Republican dream at work! You
want to talk poverty? Just look out your door or drive to the other side of
town. We got it coming at us like a run away train!
Poverty in America will never end until there are fundamental changes to the
culture that has grown up over the past hundred years or so. Great segments of
our societies either can not or choose not or will not apply the formulas which
lead to prosperity. The formulas basically are (1) obtain
education/training/skill that is needed and marketable within the society. Do we
realize how many young Americans gain college degrees that are worthless and not
needed in our economy? (2) Apply the personal energy needed to recognize and
make the most of opportunities. PERSONAL ENERGY is more important than smarts,
education, connections, luck, etc. (3) Lose the attitude of entitlement--you
don't deserve to live above the poverty line just because you live. i know
many will disagree with this (Ultra Bob--"We need to provide people with an
income just because they are people.") That statement certainly represents
one of the greatest disincentives to building wealth I've heard! The
problems with most poverty eradication programs is the great misunderstanding of
human nature they exhibit while simply infusing cash into the system. We will
reduce (never eradicate) poverty when we gain an understanding of human nature.
Poverty is the disease of socialism and Marxism and can never be improved or
eliminated. Its a creation of government who has empowered itself to eliminate
prosperity of its people. Poverty has no upward mobility and the only success
are approved by government and funded by government. Poverty is
socialists power over rights and individuals. Spreading the wealth is poverty
and that is why there is no cure. Governemnt and power mongers don't want
to cure poverty and desperation to survive keeps citizens in distress and
fighting each other to keep jobs that barely pays their debts.There
is no shame of being poor. But poverty socialist government and tells people its
their fault becasue they are not educated enough is a lie. Most of american is
over educated and it hasn't ended poverty one iota. Hard work is a lie,
working hard to live in poverty is a fact.How ever being poor in a
free economy people can improve prosperity to improve their lives and incomes by
their own merits regardless of eduction. Independence is an education you
can't get in schools and it creates prosperity that creates and improves
2 Bits,Capitalism does not work on its own via natural means. If
so, countries with virtually no govt. (failed states) would have the most
vibrant economies. They don't. Why? Because capitalism depends on strong
laws and consistent govt. Without these institutions it cannot survive.Also, for all of its many, many successes, capitalism breeds failure
along with success. The labor market shifts to X and those who used to be great
at Y are left scrambling (and poor) while those who are good at X succeed. A
business succeeds remarkably and dominates its industry and then looks to
exclude new entrants/competitors. A consortium of dominant players in an
industry seek by price collusion or govt. intervention to exclude other
competitors.Yes, I know. But that is not "pure" capitalism.
But it is how it is practiced in every country unless there is vigilant govt.
oversight.The trick is of course is not to have a heavy hand. But a
strong "officials" position at the side lines ready to keep play on the
field fair.It is just what capitalism needs in order to work (well).
Correction -- @LDS LiberalFarmington, UTIf you
believe God, and that "there is enough and to spare", Then
there should be "NO" poor among us.NO poor among us.
We (in North America) have no idea what TRUE "Poverty" is.Go
to the Philippines, or some countries in Africa, or Central or South America.
You will get a whole different impression of what "Poverty" means.If ANY American were this poor... our safety net would be helping them.
No American gets to the level of Poverty that is very COMMON in many other
countries.And yet... some of the most HAPPY and the most amazing
people I have ever met... live in relative poverty in the Philippines, and
Africa. Why is that?Could it be... because we are SPOILED and
ENTITLED in America?I don't want to experience the poverty of
the people I met in Manila. But I would like to experience the happiness they
have. Maybe we need a little more humility in America...But the
poverty we have here... is mostly in our heads. We actually have more (food,
etc) than the common people in other countries.What I'm trying
to say is... Poverty is relative. And it's not always a bad thing.
Remember how hard it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom...
Couple thoughts:* take one third of the money spent on wars, and
you can use it to eliminate poverty.* Poverty is caused by corrupt,
and greedy governments.
Having spoken with employment counselors in Utah, if people will clean up, show
up (consistently), avoid substance use/abuse and do the work for which they are
paid, there are jobs in Utah. They can lift themselves out of poverty. For those
who are disabled or temporarily unemployed, there should be a safety net. This
must be a hand up and not a hand out. In marxist countries people pretend to
work and the government pretends to pay them. It doesn't fly in the US.
If you want to stop poverty in the third world, then corruption has to stop.
Get rid of corruption then the problem goes away.If you want to stop
poverty in the US, get rid of out of wedlock births. Thanks to the Obama
administration. We are going in the wrong direction.China has used
capitalism to increase their money. But this is cut-throat capitalism and it is
mixed up with corruption. China is an example of the benefits for capitalism
like a rogue cop is an example of law and order.It is capitalism
without the morality which is just as bad as socialism without morality.Socialism is practiced in a lot of countries as just a variety of
corruption. Zimbabwe for example where, in the name of socialism, Mugabe helps
his friends. In Europe socialism is morally bankrupt. France's socialists
are womanizers.I think capitalism/democracy is a great system. When
it gets screwed up it is our own dang fault and not some bureaucrat in some