Kate Kelly's 'conduct contrary to the laws and order of the church,' bishop says
I feel sorry for Kate Kelly, I really do. I don't believe her Ordain Women
movement was correct in its approach or interpretation of certain passages in
the scriptures, but I don't find joy in knowing that she has repeatedly
gone against the church in this regard and has been excommunicated. Perhaps her
original intent (several months ago) was just a question, but it has certainly
evolved to more than that over the past year. I hope she finds her way back, I
Good!She came with demands not questions. When those demands
weren't met, she tried to embarrass the church by going Jason Chaffetz with
every camera she could find. The Mormon church need not cave to
pressure from some uncivil people. The church has a right to have a doctrine and
to stick with it. They shouldn't ever be held at ransom. Let
this be a lesson to others who desire to overrule those called to receive
revelation for the church. No matter how loud you are, how popular you become,
and how many cameras you seek out, you cannot overrule the church's
With all of the deep issues she has with the church, I wonder why she
hasn't just moved on before it came to this point. I think there is room
to grow when it comes to issues involving women and the church. But eventually
one runs into the fact that Jesus Christ is male. If the church is too
patriarchal, and you believe that no man can understand, teach, or help you, how
can a male Savior help you? That seems to be the end result of anyone who has
issues with male leadership in the church that runs as deep as the OW group.
The fact is that most people in the church, male and female, will
never be in positions of authority. Bishops can be jerks to both sexes. Most
members are just people, hopefully trying to be kind and improve their lives.
Anyway, I wish the best for Kate Kelly and her group. But it does
seem to me that she would be best in another religion, given the level of issue
that she takes with the current church.
We should be careful when we take a minor issue we may have in the Church and
mistake it for the whole. Even when we get that far most of us are willing to
take correction. Very sad.
Totally not surprising. She tried to steady the ark. Repeatedly. Again I ask:
What, exactly, was she thinking? The Priesthood has been exclusively male for
7,000 years. What made her think that she was going to change that? r that God
had suddenly changed His mind.... and she was the vehicle in which He chose to
do so? That's kind of... hubris? If she thinks she was
privileged to get revelation for the entire church that the prophet did not,
well, she's welcome to start her own church. But that's apostasy from
the LDS church, and no question about it. If she didn't get a
revelation.... then what on earth was she thinking? Especially after Elder
Oaks' talk? I'm sorry she brought this on herself, but
her attitudes and actions could only lead to this. So be it. I hope she comes
back like William W. Clayton did.
It has always seemed to me that Ms. Kelly and her followers have chosen (perhaps
without even fully realizing it) to center their lives on feminism instead of
Jesus Christ and His Church. Ms. Kelly is now at a place in her life where
'two roads diverge in a yellow wood', she can choose to repent and
come back to Christ and His Church or she can continue to stubbornly stay
centered on feminism. I hope she comes back.
No surprise, teach against the doctrine of a church and attempt to use media an
public pressure to alter its beliefs and you will be excommunicated. Apparanlty
she forgot her reccomend questions. She has the free will to believe what she
wants but that does not make it doctrinaly correct or acceptable. I wish her
well. Another example of someone who let pride kill her testimony. And for her
defenders it is okay to have diverse opinions on church issues an doctrine but
if you truly do ascribe belief in this church and its teachings then you accept
some stances on how policy and doctrine is established in this church and the
source it comes from. It would be good for members to re-visit Brigham Youngs
statement in the Kirtland Temple in defending Joseph Smith from some members who
believed they could do a similair thing and u-surp the defined channels and keys
god revelaed through the prophets you might also revisit 2nd peter 1:20-21
I also feel sorry for Kate Kelly in that she has lost her church membership and
all of the blessings that have been and could have been hers. It's not
wrong to question, but after you have been given an answer, as hard as it is to
take sometimes, you need to let it go. After reading the letter she wrote to her
bishop she left them no choice. If the church means as much to her as she says
it does she will repent and work her way back. "The natural man is an enemy
to God and has been since the fall"
I find the title of this article troubling. It places the emphasis on the bishop
rather than Kelly, who left the church, who did not even show up for the
meeting. I anticipate that most if not all of the media will communicate this
event as something that was done to Kelly rather than something she did to
herself. I hope she comes back too.
Not a suprise, given her open defiance to requests to stop the open
demonstrations, etc.Typically, a letter is written to the subject of
the counsel listing their restrictions, and counsel as they move toward
returning to membership. I am sure we will get to read this letter once Ms.
Kelly releases it to the press. I am sure this will help Ms. Kelly
advance her career as an equal rights activist as well.
I am grateful they ex-communicated Kate. This puts her in a position where she
can decide to come back to the church, or continue to fight the church. It is
her choice. I'm very grateful for the choice the Bishopric made and feel
that it was inspired.
I wholeheartedly oppose OW in everything they are trying to accomplish in the
Church. I believe that if God intended for women to hold the priesthood He would
have given it to Eve along with Adam. I would be glad to bring Kate Kelly back
into the Church, but only if she repents of her sins and forsakes these foolish
and nonsensical ideas.
Here's the crazy thing. If that was her only issue, why put your.
Membership and commitments to our Heavenly Father behind?The church must
of not meant that much to her.
Let's be honest: When you start down a road like this, you know
excommunication lies at the end of it. This is probably the least shocking
thing that's ever happened in her life.
She's not surprised how this played outI'm not surprised how
this played outChurch leaders aren't surprised how this played outGoodbye Kelly. Good luck to you in your struggles.
I too am sorry for Kate Kelly. This must be a painful and disappointing chapter
in her life. I hope her efforts move the LDS church forward to a point where
women are equally represented in the Corporation of the President of the LDS
Church, the Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric of the LDS Church and
hopefully a to-be created Corporation of the Relief Society of the LDS Church. I
hope that women and girls are equally represented in the things like a
disciplinary action. I hope that girls are equally represented in the budget for
girls camps versus scout camps. I hope that women and girls are allowed to
advance in their lives and in the Church through promotions that are equal to
boys. I hope that women can confess and confide in other women, including
confessions or interviews for the temple or other cultural and doctrinal
activities. I disagree that sharing the priesthood equals equality. I do not
think sameness is essential. I hope for equality, and maybe Kelly moved that
conversation forward. Kindnesses to her.
I wonder what we'd call a company that categorically refused to
hire/promote women to top leadership positions. Would we use the same
terminology that we'd use to call a church that doesn't have female
clergy/priesthood, or something different? If something different, why?
How about if now the media now MOVES ON?This article WILL be the
last I read about on "her plight".Religion isn't like
politics where, if you can convince enough folks, you CAN have your way.She's manipulating the media!
It seems to me that Mrs. Kelly received what she desired: attention. She will
continue to receive attention for a little while longer, and then she'll
have time to contemplate her actions.
All she did was ask. Nothing wrong with asking. They bullying of her parents was
a horrible thing. There really is no discourse in this organization.
Best of luck to Kate Kelly. You did a great thing. Keep it up!
With the information I have about the situation, and if it had been my decision
to make, I would not have made that decision. But it wasn't. The bishop
had the responsibility to do what he believed God required him to do, and he did
what he believed he was duty-bound to do. That is an honorable thing.I wish those who are questioning Sister Kelly's motives would consider
the possibility that she believed she was doing likewise. Even if she is wrong,
it is not gentlemanly to assume vicious motives without compelling evidence, and
I have none that she was not acting according to what she believed her
Kate Kelly knew long before what the likely outcome would be for her course of
action. A few eyes will be on her to see where she goes from here but it
doesn’t really matter one way or the other. In a month or so this will be
yesterday’s news. The issues that were raised will remain.
She deserved it. For those of you that have never been involved in an LDS
Church council it is not taken lightly by the church leaders involved in the
action. It can take many hours of prayer and deliberation.
Shame on those of you who appear to take delight in seeing someone cut off. Let
he who is without sin cast the first negative comment. This is heartbreaking
for her family. My prayers go out to them.
I do not feel like she has had a fair shake. I know that in 1977 a couple of
Mormon men were also excommunicated for their positions on Blacks having the
priesthood. This might be just how the church does things? There is a good
article in support of Kate that is available to read on the Tribunes site. Or
just google (Apostasy council brief in support of Kate Kelly) after reading it I
am dissapointed that her church leaders chose to do this.
"Good"? "...glad they excommunicated her"? Really? This stuff
makes you happy? Wow, your Mormonism isn't working to the full extent that
it can in your life when you make comments like this.My Mormonism
finds no joy in this action at all, although I agree it's probably
appropriate. Now let's get on with fellowshipping this woman to the extent
possible and everybody...on both sides...STOP JUDGING. Come on, people, STOP
"Church members will live in this wheat-and-tares situation until the
Millennium. Some real tares even masquerade as wheat, including the few eager
individuals who lecture the rest of us about Church doctrines in which they no
longer believe. They criticize the use of Church resources to which they no
longer contribute. They condescendingly seek to counsel the Brethren whom they
no longer sustain. Confrontive, except of themselves, of course, they leave the
Church, but they cannot leave the Church alone."Elder Neal A.
Maxwell, 'Becometh As a Child', Ensign, May 1996.
re:Ernest T. Bass"All she did was ask". No Ernest, she did
MUCH MUCH more than just ask and that is why she was excommunicated. She went to
the NY Times and other newspapers and brought scorn upon the Church in a very
public manner and she also created her own following contrary to the teachings
of the Church. That is an absolute recipe for excummunication. Elder Oaks
responded in the last general Priesthood Meeting with a great talk on women and
the priesthood but Kate rejected the words of the apostles and prophets of the
Church she professed to follow and believe in. The Church Of Jesus Christ Of
Latter Day Saints is not a political organization where lobbying and political
pressure create change in doctrine any more than someone in Jesus's day
doing the same thing.
T. Bass - "all she did was ask"No, that's
not all she did. There is no issue in asking EVER.She did ask but
didn't like the answer so she kept going and pushing. I am sure she knew
very well what her actions were going to get her.
...martyr for a cause, the wrong cause unfortunately. Saddening to witness.
There is always a path back. Many many examples. Years and years
ago, I ventured the dark and prideful path of apostasy. Thanks to a loving
Heavenly Father for allowing me to live long enough to reconcile, to recognize
the error of my ways - and for some amazing leaders who counseled with me in
faith, patience and mercy..coupled with the support of my eternal companion -
His mission and atonement became clear. Miraculous. Infinite.There
is always a path back.
I may not agree with Ordain Women, but it's always very sad to hear about
someone being excommunicated. No one should find anything to rejoice
in this. No one should think of this as a good day, because regardless of who it
is, it is always heartbreaking to learn about anyone who is now out of the
church.My advice to all devout Latter-day Saints is, pray for those
who are no longer LDS that they will one day return to the fold. Don't pray
anything negative because we're all imperfect. Pray for mercy
and peace instead.
The church couldn't have handled this any worse. It started by her asking
the brethren to ask god a question. But they refused. She asked for a
meeting they refused. She asks for tickets to conference they refuse. All they had to do was meet with her after they had asked god about women
being ordained and the answer was this is not the time. That would have been the
end. Instead they have a movement that this excommunication will not be
Pretty standard communication in such a situation/outcome.
Just like the Prophet Joseph in the grove. Its perfectly fine to question and
ask questions. You just have to be humble enough to accept the answer. Its a
lesson for all of us not just for those who have taken their complaints to the
I would kindly suggest to commenters that if you find feminism to be contrary to
the order and doctrine of the church, or if you think this excommunication is a
judgment against feminism, you don't know much about feminism and probably
don't know much about the history of women in the Church.Just
remember, feminism is the radical idea that women are people. There are various
movements within feminism, and you may disagree with some or many of their
ideas, but if you agree that women should be able to vote or own property,
you're a feminist.
What a shame, truly a shame that all of this happened. Good for her for asking
a question. Bad for her for not taking the answer she got and finding peace
from God about it. I hope she can find an unbiased resolution to her needs so
she can return to full fellowship.
No, Ernest T. Bass, she did much more than ask. Please read the whole story.
@Blue AZ CougarDon't you miss Elder Maxwell? I sure do.
Thanks for the quote.
I am saddened for this lady and wish her the best! I am a female and am not one
that would want the things she wants, but I know everyone is different. I
believe the leadership of mostly men in religion is more of a tradition rather
than totally set in stone and I know there are religions that allow women clergy
and maybe she will find a home in one of those. God Bless All!
"As a group we intend to put ourselves in the public eye and call attention
to the need for the ordination of Mormon women to the priesthood."This is not the mission of a group that is simply "asking."It takes a great deal of humility to recognize one's errors and change
after making them such a public matter. Kate Kelly wouldn't be the first
person in history who failed to do so. Then again, she wouldn't be the
first person in history who succeeded in doing so either.Here's
hoping that she can overcome the allure of having her own followers and
recognize the importance of following the teachings of someone who is much
Why wouldn't members be happy about her being excommunicated? She was
sowing discord and discontent within the church. It's great that the Bishop
saw through her ruse and gave her what she undoubtedly deserved.I'm always happy to get the fox out of the hen house; there's
nothing wrong with that is there? With that being said, I feel bad
for her family. I hope she repents and comes back to the fold.
She had to know that this would happen, so--one can only surmise she wanted to
leave with both guns blazing.She will find peace and spirituality again.
To answer the question "why would someone who disagreed with a Church policy
want to stay Mormon anyway?", consider this:The difference
between Mormonism and most Protestant sects is that Mormonism -- like Judaism
and Catholicism -- has become a cultural tribe, as well as a theological
confession. As much as certain old-school Defenders of the Faith
despise "cultural Mormons," they are real people. And their engagement
with the LDS Church, while it might not be the one most favored by the Church
institution and its zealous advocates, is real, too. That's what's
being lost by an excommunicated heretic ("apostate" isn't quite the
right word here). And that is not something for anyone to celebrate.
That's too bad that Ms. Kelly's search for answers led to her
excommunication. I think excommunicating her was the wrong decision.
Nevertheless, while her former Bishop may have the authority to place temporal
administrative sanctions on her, those temporal administrative sanctions cannot
separate her heart from the Lord. If she went astray, her heart would have
already ben separated from the Lord. But if she hadn't, and she'd
been wronged by her former stake leaders as I believe she had, then nothing had
changed...or at least not for her. However, the tithing she will not pay, the
talks she will not give, the callings she will not fulfill, and temple work that
she will not do, will all be on the heads of those responsible for preventing
her from fulfilling those obligations.
This is a sad situation! Everyone has questions but those questions can be
answered through faith, sincere prayer, and listening to the spirit. "Ask,
and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be
opened unto you." When she was asked to stop publically condemning the
church, it's doctrine, and leaders, she should have had a sincere heart to
heart with God to find His will and know has a plan that will lead to her
happiness. It is not a prerequisite to agree with this doctrine, but it is a
prerequisite to realize that God's know better than we do and submit
faithfully to his will.
I am disgusted by all the comments expressing happiness or gratitude for Sister
Kelly's excommunication. What we should be is sad...sad that some men chose
to cast out one of our own. She did not choose to be excommunicated. She chose
to ask, quite publicly, some uncomfortable questions. And when she was asked to
be quiet and go away, she refused. But she did not voluntarily leave the church.
She was cut off, and the decision was that of a panel of her male leaders, not
hers. The more we rejoice in another's suffering and
self-righteously congratulate ourselves for judging her "correctly", the
more I fear Christ will not recognize us when He comes again. Nor will we
recognize Him. Christ would be with Sister Kelly, loving and comforting her. Not
looking out the windows of our glass houses, secure in our perceived piety.
As a non Mormon I find it quite hypocritical that numerous individuals continue
to post such hateful rhetoric. How is it "good" that this women was
excommunicated as @TheRealMaverick eloquently stated? Is this the message of
your church? Help a non Mormon understand. A Catholic priest once told me that
questions only make faith stronger!
"...You must be truthful in your communications with others regarding
matters that involve your priesthood leaders, including the administration of
church discipline"Not posting the complete letter tells me about
her character. Either you post it or you don't do it. But if that sentence
is true, which I believe it is, then she was not that honest as she wanted us to
"Just remember, feminism is the radical idea that women are people."No, it is not. I believe that no person should be subject
to artificial restraints because of sex. To that extent, I'm a feminist.
(Alternatively, I'm just a human being who favors basic justice -- nothing
fem- or mascu- about it.)But what goes under the label of
"feminist" in the 21st century goes well beyond that. Because of that,
I can't call myself one -- because too much of that "beyond that,"
which is objectively unjust and immoral, is baked into the package now
associated with the word.
I too, as others have expressed feel badly today.I support the
Church 100% in its decision. There have to boundaries that simply cannot be
crossed if you are to remain in good standing with the Church. Ms. Kelly knew
those boundaries yet was not willing to give on her demands.The
Church will move forward and be just fine. I hope the same for Ms. Kelly.
Why should they meet with her? Long ago we were instructed to go to out bishops
and stake presidents to address any concern we may have. Those are the channels.
Why should she be the exception? Nevertheless, she had the PR department
answering her every need and for the record, the PR doesn't talk unless the
brethren told them what to do. Beyond that, the Church contracted air tv to
transmit the Priesthood session (that costs $$$) and had an apostle answering
her question in public, just the way she had been asking for what she wanted.
It is sad. Sad for her and her family, sad for the people that are
following her, sad for the Lord I am sure too.
It is one thing to ask questions. But if the answer coming back to you
isn't the answer you were hoping for then why keep asking the same
question? Do you ask until you get the answer you want? I'm not a member
but it seems as if she was going to keep asking the same question until she got
"her" answer. Like the little kid who wants candy at the grocery store
and throws a tantrum until daddy gives in. Except in this case Daddy took her
out of the store and said "we aren't going back until you behave
The fact that she chose not to attend makes me feel that she intended to leave
the church all along.
In many ways apostasy is the hardest road back. Forsaking the sin and embracing
humility are very difficult, especially for one who has been so vocal and so
unwilling to take counsel.And Kenya will lose a woman with great potential
for good.Sad all around.
Loved the quote from Elder Maxwell. A sad day. When someone is excommunicated
it is never a good day. But you reap what you sow. Kate Kelley knew this was
coming. The sad thing is she earned it. Every bit. I pray that she will be
touched by the spirit and find a way to reconnect with the church. She gave up
As a former bishop, I can assure you that these things are NEVER taken lightly.
What's best for the church and best for the individual must be very
carefully and prayerfully balanced and considered. Because Ms.Kelly made her
desires and cause so public, anyone who is a member of the church and
understands how the church is lead shouldn't be surprised at the outcome.
The church is not a democracy, its a theocracy---"a form of government in
which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler, the God's or
deity's laws being interpreted by the ecclesiastical authorities."
I'm so glad to be a member of church that is led by a prophet and other
wise and experienced men and women. I feel very bad for Ms. Kelly, she seems to
be a great leader, just for a misguided cause. I sincerely hopes she comes
back, but by reading her own statements, she'll have a lot of pride to
swallow. It won't be easy. She'll probably be "kicking against the
pricks" for some time.
The church leaders said no to women holding the priesthood. I sure a popular
vote among women memebers of the chruch would say no to women holding the
priesthood (Most LDS women still try to follow the prophet.) so how does Mrs.
Kelly want the matter desided? Her way? It appears she feels her opinion is the
only correct one.
Ernest Bass- She did not just asked, she badgered. She tried pulling a Martin
Harris. She got the answer she did not want and continued to badger hoping to
get a different answer. Why should the Prophet keep asking until he gets the
answer she wants. We lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon when that happened
last time, and learned a lesson.RoyceN- Where is the evidence that
the leaders of the Church did not pray about it. From Conference talks on the
subject it appears they did, and it was not the answer she wanted. Why is she
entitled to get an official call or meeting with the Prophet himself regarding
it? The Prophet does not have a questions hotline for anyone who wants to call.
He is too busy. The leaders explained it in Conference for the whole Church,
including her. Holding a meeting with her would have just fed her ego more.It is simple, you either believe in the Apostles and Prophet as led by
God, or you don't. When you don't accept the answers that they convey,
it signals that you don't believe in them.
A warning to any who follow her - she is not a prophet. Do not follow her. It
will lead you down the same path to apostasy. "Follow the prophet,
don't go astray. Follow the prophet, he knows the way."
This is not a pleasant duty for bishops. I am sure it brings no joy.
Wouldn't it be better to conduct such private business between the people
concerned, instead of vigils and newspaper stories?
@HRM"I am disgusted by all the comments expressing happiness or
gratitude for Sister Kelly's excommunication."Agreed. We should
be Christ-like and help her see the error of her ways and come back to the fold.
There is no place in our church to revel in the spiritual misfortunes of our
brothers and sisters."We should be sad that some men chose to
cast out one of our own. She was cut off, and the decision was that of a panel
of her male leaders, not hers."Disagreed. It wasn't
'men' that cast her out. Do not reduce this to a discussion of
"boy vs. girl" because it's more than that. These were priesthood
leaders. This was a common judge in the church, one that Kate Kelly herself
sustained each year in her ward conference by raising her arm to the square. I
wish she had some respect for the office, but it's pretty apparent she had
no intention of being counseled or corrected. This is not something that
'just happened' to her. I'm surprised so many people are
surprised at the outcome. Have you read some of her comments against her local
So sorry to hear that a member has chosen to insert her desire rather than
accept what our Priesthood leaders have explained to her was incorrect doctrine.
As Members of the Saviors church we should know there are rules we all must
follow. If correction is made, it will be from the Lord through the First
Presidency of the church. Not from a lay member. I send my love to the one
involved. Hope she see's the wisdom of the Priesthood authority, and
discontinues to influence other members against the Church.
Rather than simply harping on the one difference--that LDS males hold priesthood
office while females don't, I wish that Kate would have also focused in a
more balanced way on the many more similarities--that men and women share
priesthood power, while serving in LDS temples, in ward and stake counsels, as
presidents of ward, stake, and general organizations, etc. etc. etc. Instead,
she used exaggerations and mistruths in order to put herself in the
limelight.The Ordain Women movement can yet be a positive
contributor in the discussion on LDS priesthood, but only if its members learn
to use balance, fairness, and respect in their discussion. I feel sad that it
came to excommunication, but I feel that it was the correct decision, and I hope
that the Ordain Women movement can learn from this how to become an effective
contributor to a very poignant debate, rather than marginalizing themselves and
the many great insights that they probably have.
Here's what I hope happens from this situation:1) a dialogue
about gender inequaility in the church continues (because socially there is some
of that.)2) Sister Kelly comes back to full faith and fellowshipPS. Kaladin I don't know who you are but you are Stormblessed.
To those who are crying "Why can't we ask questions": You know
that's not what she was doing. She said she will not stop until women get
the priesthood. She rallied people to do the same, marching on the conference
center, held vigils, refused to speak with her leaders, refused to listen to the
conference talks addressing this issue, went to the press to fight against the
Church...She was not asking questions. She was demanding the priesthood.
Contention is of the devil, and that is what she chose to bring. I am sad for
her, but I am even more sad for anyone she has and will lead into strange paths
away from the iron rod. Please, anyone who has followed her, talk to your
leaders. They will be happy to hear your questions.
We are a church of order. We are guided by a living prophet. Revelation comes
to Pres. Monson and he shares with the Church what God has in store. We are
privy to our own personal revelation and not for the church as a whole.Kate knew the consequences for her actions would come at a price. Now she has
paid the price for her actions. She has to live with her actions which will
impact her family, friends, and other church members she recruited.If Kate wants the priesthood, she should seek out a religion that ordains
women. There are many out there that will gladly give her the priesthood. The
Community Church of Christ, RLDS, ordain women. This story reminded
of Alma chapter 1. She wants to go perverting the ways of God and lead others
astray. Instead of physical death, she has suffered spiritual death. I pray she will find repentance and soul searching in the future.
Some people just don't get it. If you would pay attention. Women in the
LDS church have had a voice and representation since the Relief Society was
originally organized in the 1800's. Plus, In my opinion they are more in
tune with the spirit, are the glue that holds the family unit together and have
a much higher "calling" then most men can handle.
Brother & Sister'sI comes down to this point. You either believe
or you do not believe the LDS Church is the true church as organized through the
Prophet Joseph Smith under the direction of Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith was
either a Prophet or he was not a Prophet. Those in the church that have a
Temple Recommend know and understand why in a Temple recommend Interview you are
asked certain Questions: The "HONEST" answer to these questions
determines if a Temple Recommend is given and accepted. Bottom Line, You either
believe or you do not believe. It is OK to question but once you receive an
answer to your question(s) from church authorities you either accept or you do
not accept. If you do not accept the answer that is your choice. BUT choices
have consequences One of God's greatest gifts to you is your AGENCY. You
notice I did not say Free Agency. Agency is not free becausebecause
choices have consequences Good or Bad. Your Father-in-Heaven Loves. Choose
"While we are deeply saddened by this decision, Kate is a part of us, and
Ordain Women will continue,"Continue with what? Its a sad,
misguided, and ultimately dishonest notion to believe that any member and
non-member of the church involved with this effort will change the doctrine of
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints through this type of influence.
If you believe in the doctrines of this faith, then you understand that's
not how it works. If you really don't believe in its doctrines, as she has
stated for herself, then you have the option of leaving the faith. It's
very disengenuous to say you don't agree and must have change to fit your
personal belief, but claim to want to remain a member. She has options now.
She can do what she probably intended from the beginning, and that is to
establish her own organization and ordain herself to it's leadership,
however that works. This is no different than many other apostate efforts by
individuals or groups through the church's history.
How do you think this news will impact conversion rates for women? I have
checked several national news sites and the response to this decision has been
Avenue said: "I wholeheartedly oppose OW in everything they are trying to
accomplish in the Church. I believe that if God intended for women to hold the
priesthood He would have given it to Eve along with Adam. "It is
my understanding that He did just that. God placed Adam in the Garden of Eden
and with him, God place Eve as an "Help meet" for him. My understanding
is that this meant that they had authority from God to do the things that He had
organized them for and placed them on earth for. That is he gave them access to
His Priesthood. What we are really quibbling about is the existence
of offices in a priesthood organization. I happen to hold an office in the
Melchizedek Priesthood. That speaks more about the amount of organizational or
administrative responsibility I may be expected to be given than it does to how
I may use the authority of God to help in His work of bringing to pass the
immortality and eternal life of man.
Kate Kelly was excommunicated so membership in the church is down by one. But in
spite of the church saying you can question or have doubts it's clear there
is really no place to share those doubts or even talk about them. Many people on this forum are saying now she can learn her lesson or good
riddance to her but I think what will really happen is many other people will
see what happened to her and will silently withdraw themselves from the church.
Steven Hawkins said that science is based on reason and religion is
based on authority. This is a perfect example of that and how no amount of
reason would change anything in the church. For me, this is the truly sad thing.
We, the church, was founded on questioning of religious authority, grew because
of questions, got answers from God because of questions, but now it seems
everything is set and questions aren't really allowed anymore. And the
saddest thing of all is the general leadership has been silent and local
leadership acted and all of them have basically just said "because" and
nothing about why which could enlighten some of us.
@4 FreedomYou are correct. The emphasis should be on Ms. Kelly. But
the purpose of the headline is to try to show that the decision to excommunicate
her was made by local church authorities, not church leaders in Salt Lake City.
I wonder how long the media is going to give this person?She's
ranking right up there with the "Kardashians".WHY
doesn't she just start her own church?
It seems to me that the church is going through "growing pains". As the
church grows and becomes more cosmopolitan is bound to encounter current of
different opinions and perspectives. The church should work to prepare itself to
"manage" those situations in a more church like manner than what can be
consider "cultish behavior" by the outside.As someone raised
as an LDS the decision of excommunication seems the logical conclusion to Ms.
Kelly's conduct. However, I wonder how much of her actions were not
inspired by God.As with the issue of Same Sex Marriage a dialogue
about women and the Priesthood has started. May be Ms. Kelly's action will
prove to be a preparation for changes to come. I don't advocate for Ms.
Kelly's position but I certainly will not condemn her actions either.
I'm sure she took the best decision with the information she had. I just know that the Lord works in mysterious ways.
I sincerely believe Kate Kelly felt inspired to push like she did. This will likely "chill" others who aggressively question, and will
likely cause others to leave the church. In the short term I think there will
be a lot fewer questions asked in church, and there may be a bit fewer people
who will attend. These actions have a "shot across the bow" effect.
You're either in, or you're out, and the dividing line is more clear
today than yesterday. What is different this time is the Internet
more rapidly - and forcefully - shapes opinions, and I sense this will be viewed
as a pivotal event, in the future. It took the Catholic Church 500
years to apologize about how it treated Galileo. Things happen more quickly in
My wife and daughters hold the Priesthood each and ever time they give me a big
hug. It is all in how you look at it. I can't think of a better way to
hold the Priesthood if you are a woman (or girl). And I like being held by
them! They can hold the Priesthood any time in my home. Different
roles and responsibilities. I have mine, my wife has her. We are one.
She says "stay and make things better." By "better" she of
course means "the way I want it>" It's not her place to say
what is "better."
Was her intention to further the agenda of the Lord or her own?
I am a Christian. I say that proudly as many of those who have commented are
proud of their founding father. I am a follower of Christ, Lord, Creator, and
my personal Savior. What Kate doesn’t realize is that Jesus Christ has
already made her equal with man. She was fighting for something that is not
necessary. The most important authority an individual needs to recognize before
they die is the authority of Jesus Christ. The Book of Hebrews tells us that
God spoke to us through His Son. No more prophets. We have a need of a Savior
not another human with all their infirmities leading us. Jesus is the High
Priest. Dare anyone to say He isn’t, and then show me proof. But the KJV
Bible says He is the only Priest we need. He is an eternal Priest. Those who
follow a man or “priesthood” have a religion but they don’t
have a relationship with God. Kate’s excommunication is a gift from God.
Don’t look back. I pray for all who trust in men and an institution to
find the true Lord and Savior.
Now can we move on without KK being in the news? I feel sorry for her and those
she has proselyted but she will be forgotten in a short time along with others
who have chosen to follow this path. These Church councils are very sacred and
private but this person has chosen to make it public and to diminish it's
sacred purpose. I believe these brethren fulfilled their responsibilities
"The fact that she chose not to attend makes me feel that she intended to
leave the church all along."Elwood, I don't think it's
at all fair to say that she "chose not to attend". She was living 2200
miles away at the time, since the disciplinary action was in her old ward in
Virginia, not her new ward in Utah. After her move to Utah, they put a hold on
her records and started the disciplinary action in her old ward. So I
don't see how she could have attended, given the distance and timing.
The letter from her bishop was beautifully written. I truly hope that she will
be able to come back to full fellowship in the church as well.
Well, for those who are saying that others will withdraw from the church.
Probably. I recall the parable of the Ten Virgins, and the wheat and the tares.
Between the members pushing gay marriage, and now this Ordain Women
thing--I'm sure lots of tares are ripening and outing themselves. It's sad, but I remember when Jesus announced that He was the Bread
of Life. Many left and went other ways then as well, costing themselves who
knows how much in the grand scheme of things. And Moses has HIS
politically correct people too, who wanted to worship the "in thing" of
the day: golden calves, rather than Jehovah. I'm sorry to see
the members go who think that political correctness is more important than
eternal life, but so be it. It is their decision, and their life. I hope they
repent and come back, if they do apostatize.
@ Candide:"How do you think this news will impact conversion rates for
women? I have checked several national news sites and the response to this
decision has been overwhelmingly negative."...and your point
is...? so we should follow whatever the national news say, is that it? this
point of view is as misguided as Ms Kelly
re:Baccus0902"I'm sure she took the best decision with the
information she had."Had Kate read Elder Oaks talk in the recent
General Priesthood meeting then she would have certainly "had" all the
information she needed to make a correct decision. If she did read the talk then
she rejected the doctrine. When you reject the words of the prophets and
apostles you are "cut off" from amoung the people... (D and C 1:14)
I feel so blessed to be guided by living prophets. I sincerely hope that Kate
will listen to their words and return to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I know
that his heart aches to lose another one of his beloved sheep. May we use this
time to realign ourselves to the one who loves all men and women equally.
Kann,I would suggest you take a quick peek at Epesians 4: 11-13 KJV.
Pretty compelling stuff about how Christ himself selected Apostles and Prophets
to lead and unify the body of Christ, his church.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a corporation. Ministers
are not hired and not paid. They are called. If the Church is the Church
Christ established then it is led by Prophets and apostles called by him. In
this case, Mrs. Kelly has repeatedly and deliberately refused to follow
Christ's servants. Why should she remain in the church if she feels this
way? If it is not Christ's Church, then Sister Kelly suffered no harm.
She is free to start her own church and ordain who she will. In either case,
affiliation with the Church is voluntary. No one forced Mrs. Kelly to make
covenants and she may not force others to accept her opinion as inspired. I
hope she can see that her course hurts only herself and those who insist on
promoting her views. I hope she can repent and return.
What a sad day for this woman and her family. Something she did, brought it all
on, however the great principle of the gospel will make it possible if she
changes her ways, and follows the teachings and principles of the gospel, she
could be re-baptized and have the blessings that she originally had. It saddens
me as her sister in the Gospel, that she made the decisions that caused her to
loose the blessings of membership, instead of providing the hours she used to
help build up the kingdom and serve others in her area that might need some help
with food, clothing, housing or just a good friend to talk to. This effects her
whole family. I have been a Relief Society President when the Bishop of our
ward was excommunicated, so I do know how much sadness and heartache comes with
this action. However, i know that his weeknesses were making it very difficult
for them, and it was something they all had to experience. May the Lord bless
this sister and help her find her way back into the gospel.
@Instereo:The places I see questions raised, discussed, answered
sometimes but admitting we don't know all the answers at other times, are
in they most obvious places: Sunday School classes, Priesthood and Relief
Society meetings, in the halls and foyers, at the dinner table, in the living
room with home teachers and visiting teachers, around the camp fire with YM and
YW, etc. Almost all of us have questions almost every day. There is
almost no place where sincere seekers of answers aren't free to talk about
doubts. In the Church I've attended all my life one simply has to raise
one's hand to raise questions and doubts. That activity is not limited to
social media. Another good place: on one's knees with a humble
heart and a contrite spirit.
I would never celebrate the loss of a person's membership. It is truly a
very sad day she has chosen for herself, her family, and her posterity. Eternal
life, temple privileges, covenants, priesthood blessings, and church membership
mean less to Ms Kelly than her cause. The scriptures that come to mind exposing
her apostasy are several. It is indeed sad, but it is a consequence of
stubbornness, disobedience, disrespect, pride, and dishonor for the very
priesthood she seeks. I hope that the few other sisters who have been misled
will come to their senses very soon and seek for answers in the correct way, the
way Ms Kelly knows but is unwilling to follow. I hope for the day when Ms Kelly
returns. She will always be welcome, once she understands that no blessing in
God's kingdom will be denied her. She can again lift where she has stood
and all is valued equally to God when she does so.
I don't agree with Kate Kelly but I must congratulate her on a flawless
campaign. She worked hard earn this and was a model of persistence. She took
control of the situation and made certain at every turn that there would be no
I just noticed the fairly precise headline, "LDS bishop
excommunicates..."This is a smart move by the Church, because if
this story blows up in a big way and has a sharply negative effect, the Church
can emphasize the discipline was administered by local church authorities,
providing the option for a benevolent reversal by higher authorities.Also, a more tolerant stance on these comments by the D-News is noted, as many
posts I previously assumed would not make the cut actually show up here! Bravo!
I really hope she starts her own church. She will be able to have what she
wants, include and change any doctrines that suit her whim, and she will be very
happy. Her "followers" will be happier also because they will be free
from the oppression that they feel. What a great day for Ordain Women!
I wonder if Kate has considered joining with the Episcopalian church? And if
not, why not? They have women clergy which is exactly what Kate seems to be
itching for. If she can't or won't conform with the teachings of the
LDS church, I think she should seriously consider that religion. It might be the
perfect match for her.
Why do so many commenting on here seem to think that God is suppose to change
with the times and changing moral views of certain sects of society? When did
God start bending to our will instead of the other way around?If you
believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the Church led by our
Heavenly Father's chosen Prophets and Apostles here on the Earth, as I do,
why would you expect it to change with the whims of society? Why do you think
God would have a survey or hold an election to decide what his doctrines are?
Does that make any sense at all? So as one post stated that religion does not
follow "reason", what level of reason says that we tell God what his
doctrine is?Stormageddon- Why could she not return to Virginia? She
always seemed to find a way to travel from Virginia to Utah to protest at
Conference, but could not go the opposite direction for this council. We see
what her priorities were.Kann- what were Paul and the Apostles doing
after Christ when they preached and taught doctrine? Who wrote Hebrews from
which you quote?
Again I see post after post showing happiness and joy about this decision. I can
tell you from an outsider perspective it's more than creepy to see so much
joy over this woman's excommunication. I thought in mormon circles this was
supposed to be a bad thing. Why are so many of you happy about it? Why are so
many of you excited that this has happened to her? If you truly believed in your
religion shouldn't you be saddened? I read a few posts where some of you
are indeed unhappy but the vast majority seem like a pack of hyenas circling
wounded prey overjoyed with the pain and suffering this woman is experiencing.
It's not just off putting, it's down right disturbing.
Eternity is a wonderful thing. The Priesthood is a wonderful thing. Love is
the center and essence of both. Disciplinary Councils are the most inspiring and
love filled meetings in the Church. I have seen amazing outpourings of
Christ's love and even miracles during such councils in the course of my
modest service in the Church. The fact that Ms. Kelly chose to advertise the
fact of her council but not attend, speaks volumes about her apostasy from the
Church. The fact she sent a legal brief and 1000s of letters from supporters
illustrates exactly what her priorities are: legal sophistry and popularity.
The Bishop was exactly right in the Lord's decision that he confirmed. I am
equally confident that the Savior greatly loves Ms. Kelly and yearns for the
opportunity to share His indescribable love with her. No one who is the
recipient of such love can forget it. Everyone who experiences it knows it is
worth the cost of every change we must make to become like the Savior. Yes, the
Savior does love Ms. Kelly and will respond to her sincere desires to change.
Creeper51,Just don't have enough room here to say all I wanted
to say. However, I never said anything about leadership not being necessary.
Please be clear on my point. The Priesthood is the salvation of the LDS church.
Just look at some of the comments of your people. It's sad, but
it's your choice to follow men. I prefer to follow Jesus Christ who does
greater things then any man ever has. Good luck with believing in men.
Women often make incredible leaders. Unfortunately, Kate Kelly hasn't shown
great leadership. Her excommunication, while sad, is no surprise. Apart from her
significant doctrinal disconnect, Kelly's advocacy was publicly
confrontational, adversarial and embarrassing to the LDS Church. However
well-intentioned, it never had a chance. If anything, it drowned-out more
constructive dialogue.Contrast Kelly's approach to someone like
Salt Lake County Mayor Ben McAdams. As a state senator, he quietly helped
persuade the LDS Church to support a controversial non-discrimination ordinance.
How did McAdams build church support for LGBT protections during a heated
same-sex marriage battle? He didn't try to publically shame or pressure
church leaders. He didn't picket Temple Square. Speaking about his approach
in the Deseret News, he said, "I usually find that when I listen to others,
we can find common ground." And he did. So have many others.There are many important women's issues for the church to discuss —
many of them cultural, not doctrinal; members who take a less public, ham-handed
approach will make a far greater difference than Kelly or her group.
Those that understand the immutable doctrine of Christ's church and the
eternal priesthood will understand the excommunication of this sister. Those who
believe that religion and churches are like clubs whose policies can change at
the whim of its members will never comprehend eternal laws that lead to
exaltation and will continue to complain about "lack of discourse," when
the facts show that there was, indeed, much communication and counsel
Her question became a demand and she refused to accept the answer she was given.
She then turned from the Lord's will and followed her own. It's sad
that she deceived even herself. I pray that she will someday understand the
seriousness of her actions, humble herself before God, repent and return to full
fellowship in the church.Her soul needs prayerful help.
I disagree with what some people are saying. Did the bishopric seriously attempt
to counsel her about the issue? They waited for her to move to Utah first before
they called the hearing. Again, I don't know how much notice she had if the
hearing date, but it's awfully fishy.Apostasy? Or an opinion?
She probably didn't need to convince the women who support her. They
already thought what they thought and now they have a spokesman, whoops,
The priesthood isn't something you can demand, bought, or shame others into
giving you. The Lord doesn't play politics. Sadly, she doesn't really
know what it is, where it came from, or what it represents.
Wraith, I for one am not laughing. This is tragic. I just hope that she can
make peace with all of this and get her life in order.
Wow! So much for "inclusion". Did anyone bother to pay attention to Ally
Isom's interview? As a representative of the LDS Church's PR
Department, she made it very clear that The Church has a policy of not
discussing such matters in public. Really? Guess all rules only apply when
someone chooses to apply them. And, oh by the way, the way the who process was
handled was completely contrary to the (sacred, ahem) "handbook".
I'm not saying Kelly was right or wrong in her approach. I have experienced
those in authority in the church who had a much more negative affect on the
lives of decidedly more people and they continue to hold offices and exercise
unrighteous dominion. This very public event will prove to be sadly more
divisive in families than gay marriage...and it will be next.Be careful
about those Temple Interview questions folks. Next you'll be asked about
your position on all kinds of issues...and then to whom will you complain? The
Bishop? Nerp...he's the one with the power to take away your membership,
It is tragic that Sister Kelly chose this path, but she will always be our
sister. We can pray for her and those who have been influenced by her.
A sad day, but a day which had to happen. We have our agency, can choose as we
desire, however, we do not have the right to choose the consequences for those
All male jury..what a surprise. The good news sister, you are now free. Free to
be a woman, free to be a human, free to be a leader. Trust me this
is the best day of your life.
Does this now mean that the hundreds of "temple recommend" holders that
have followed Ms. Kelly will now need to be invited to their own respective
disciplinary council? Isn't the question something like: "Do you
support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings
or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints?"?
Thank you for your comment, Ernest T. Bass. Yours is the only one I liked. The
only one with any compassion.
Very sad. I'm not LDS, so I can't say that I fully understand the
social, political, and religious implications of excommunication. How can
men's judgment on earth have any impact on what God decides beyond this
world?However, I do know that OC Tanner's daughter, Carolyn,
left the Mormon faith, eventually became ordained in the Episcopal Church, and
then became the Bishop of Utah (similar to a stake president from what I'm
told). Most Christian faiths now ordain women, and women clergy are quite
common, even here in Utah.
She was clearly determined to push the Church to the point that they had no
choice but to excommunicate her. This is very obviously the outcome she wanted.
She knew from the start that she would NEVER be ordained. She was determined
to try to damage the Church.This is tragic for her and I hope she
will eventually realize what she has lost and repent. Throwing away the
fullness of the truth will NEVER succeed. "Wickedness never was
happiness." The Church will continue in its divine mission and
will not be thwarted from it. God will not be mocked.I truly hope
she will change her path and return. She will be welcomed with open arms.
Heaven forbid you have freedom of speech in the church. Heaven forbid you speak
your mind. I mean thats just not ok in any situation, except for in the United
States of America… oh wait... "You are entitled to your
views, but you are not entitled to promote them and proselyte others to them
while remaining in full fellowship in the church. ... Your disregard of our
advice and counsel left us no alternative but to convene last night's
council."hmmm, i just , hmmm, wow i mean uh, go America? er i
mean uh yay for Christ? no no, cheers to church correlation, yeah thats it, way
to go correlation!….. hmmm somethings not right.
@Old NavyGet her life in order? what do you mean? is there something
wrong with speaking up for what you believe in? is there something wrong with
being a humans rights attorney? Having a kind and loving family? life in order,
yeah she should really get her life in order because she really is on the path
to outer darkness. Im glad at least the church order of super vip guys is making
sure her life is in order by… by… wait how are they getting her life
in order again?
All persons are children of God and God loves all of us, no matter who we are.
However, there are the teachings of Christ, and there are the teachings of men.
Ms. Kelly has decided to follow the world rather than the Lord. This reminds
me, over and over again, of all the times this happened in the Book of Mormon,
with the same consequences. She had her day on her Rameumpton as did prior
apostates. As with the War in Heaven, the outcome is the same, no matter how
much we want to change it. She chose to refight that battle, and lost, as did
Satan. Still, we should love her, and care for her, as God still loves her. She
will still be in one of the Savior's "many mansions," however, it
simply will not be the one she most wanted.
Naval Vet: I would like to clarify something you seem to be missing and that is
that what she received she basically walked right into it. The things you
mentioned will not be on the heads of the Bishop nor anyone else but on her
head. She is the one that took the stand and the stand that she failed to take
the answer she was given. I take no joy in this as she once she started down
this road started the seeds of apostasy. The Bishop really had no other choice
given to him by Ms Kelly. Those of you outside the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints really have no say in this at all. What she did, she will
have to answer for. Her actions are no different than Korihor or other
apostates in the Book of Mormon or the Bible. Her actions and her actions alone
got her excommunicated, nothing more and nothing less.When she
finally comes to terms and gains an understanding of her actions she will
realize the consequences of those actions. She will have to go through a very
painful repentance process before she would be eligible for baptism.
What she could do is start her own church. Many who've left the Mormon
Church have. She'd make a fairly good prophetess.
Sister Kelly is obviously a talented individual who has had success in her
chosen field of endeavor, which I assume involves international human rights
issues. I commend her for her work in an area which needs the involvement of
high minded and talented persons. However, her training in the secular arena
does not automatically qualify her for leadership in the Church. In that
setting, spiritual leadership, not educational training, is paramount. In
confusing her secular vocation with leadership in the Church she has disdained
the counsel of her bishop and has sought to embarrass and discredit Church
doctrine and Church leadership. Even more troubling have been her attempts to
enlist others in her new-found crusade. Now she has the victory that she has
likely sought; her name has been published in news releases across the globe.
Unfortunately, most of these stories lionize her as an avant garde voice of the
women of the Church. THAT she is not, but she shall attempt to recharacterize
her excommunication as a stepping stone to ultimate triumph. This is a sad, sad
result for which she bears full responsibility. I hope that she is sincere in
warning others not to follow her example.
No love lost for the Church here, but Kate Kelly has never done anything that
didn't make her sound either manipulative or unhinged. As a lawyer, she
claimed "due process" entitled her to a disciplinary hearing in Utah,
even though her "crimes" were committed while in her ward in Virginia.
I'd wager that even if she had been offered a free airplane ticket, put up
in the Ritz-Carlton and given a limo ride to the chapel, she would have turned
it down.I really don't care for the ends the Church is being
used for by its current leaders; I really can't grasp why so many Mormons
put their money and faith and reveal their deepest secrets in
"confession" to a church that reveals nothing in return. But Kelly is a
non-believing leftist who wanted to change the Church to suit her own ends,
which I don't really care for, either.
I'm so surprised to see the reactions of my fellow Brothers and Sisters in
the gospel regarding Kate Kelly's membership in the LDS Church. I've
seen the following reactions... "Good!", "she got what she
deserved", 'there is no room for her when all she wants is the
attention', 'she should go start another church since she thinks
she's receiving revelation for the entire church' and many more in
that vein. What I can't figure out is where the Christlike love is for
Kate. She is my sister. She is your sister. All of you who are leveling
platitudes of grand approval of her excommunication are tearing me apart. This
is going to ripple through every nation on this earth and so many families will
be burdened with this 'flogging in the public forum of the internet'.
I'm so sad for my friends who are not 'firm' in the faith like
the 'strong faithful' Mormons who rejoice as one of their own family
is kicked out of the house (kingdom). To you that are glad to see Sister Kelly
go it would seem that you have your reward. I hope you enjoy it.
Kelly first asked her question in a public manner. She then made demands in
public with her attempts to enter Priesthood session then protest with cameras
in tow each time. The Church responded in public at the very meeting Kelly was
demanding to attend since that appeared to be her forum of choice. The letter
of excommunication was very well-written and made sure to detail the various
attempts over several months to discuss the issue and be clear about the
expectations & that the was not about "questions". It was Kelly who
also chose to make the letter public. Had she merely asked questions in a
private, adult setting with a humble heart ready to accept the answer from the
beginning, none of us would be reading about it. Had she been simply curious
about the priesthood session, she could have slipped in the back of any stake
center and watched it. There are no bouncers at the door. Perhaps she was
attempting to embarrass the church & lead others astray from the beginning.
In which case, she did it so congratulations may be in order.
I am surprised to see so many people say that Kate Kelly hasn't done
anything to lead people away from the church, and then admit that they
themselves are considering leaving the Church. This is all a result of her
actions, and by saying that you are leaving, you are showing how correct the
Church has been on their stance. I'm sorry to see so many of my
brothers and sisters hurting. But I am also incredibly grateful that pure
doctrine has been upheld and false doctrine and false teachers have been
disciplined to prevent further apostasy (hopefully).
@mayan elephant:"I hope that women and girls are allowed to advance in
their lives and in the Church through promotions that are equal to boys."Are you kidding? Girls have the power to wrap boys around their little
finger. They mostly don't comprehend until after puberty. They don't
need the priesthood. In fact, the priesthood was given to males to bring them
somewhat on par to females.@TheProudDuck:"The bishop had
the responsibility to do what he believed God required him to do..."Too bad such a serious matter was left in the hands of amateurs. A
professional coulda guided her toward the path to repentance.@GFuller:"I believe that if God intended for women to hold the
priesthood He would have given it to Eve along with Adam."Maybe
that's it... Eve ate the fruit against God's instruction and forfeited
any leadership chances. Instead, she had to suffer childbirth (actually, I
think something along those lines are in the Bible).
Ms. Kelly,Could you be wrong? Simply wrong? Sometimes you can be
so sure you are right, you run down that road of pride and arrogance without a
thought to the opposite idea -- could you actually be wrong? Then you begin to
do things to support your wrong idea, just to maintain it, because, in your
pride, you must keep going with it. Admitting you are wrong would be
humiliating. But that doesn't change that in the very beginning, you were
wrong. Please come back. We will miss you. Deanna
Tolman, Centennial, CODeanna Tolman
Ever heard of Naaman? He's the guy in the bible who was asked to bathe in a
dirty river seven times in order to cure his leprous skin. He refused, until his
servant asked if he would have done some difficult task had it been asked of
him.She was asked to do something relatively simple, but she put her
foot down on the wrong rock. She was asked to put church policy back into
God's hands (where it should belong) and she decided she knew better than
God. The USA isn't supposed to compromise with terrorists, but sometimes it
does. God, on the other hand, is not like that. God does not negotiate with
people who place themselves at odds with Him.
GeekUSA76,I take no joy in this. I feel quite sad for her. And you
are correct. She is our sister. But none of this excuses her teaching doctrine
that the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve have rejected. In such an
instance, she had to know that excommunication was a real possibility.
"Sister Kelly is obviously a talented individual who has had success in her
chosen field of endeavor, which I assume involves international human rights
issues."Success? She graduated from law school only two years
ago.That is what happens when you assume.
She made the decision, she therefore needs to accept the consequences. She
obviously does not believe in following the leaders of the church. She needed
to be excommunicated. If she wants the priesthood, go join another church that
ordains women. The fact that it is a man-made priesthood and not from God
probably won't make any difference to her.
GameTheoryThe LDS church did not prevent her from speaking freely,
that's something only a liberal would do. She spoke, and the LDS church
listened. The problem is, it was she who did not listen. Limitless tolerance
without consequences may be popular in the world we live in now, but it's
not popular with the Lord. His ways do not change with the worldly wind. If
this woman was a dedicated member as she has supposedly claimed herself to be,
then she should also know that there is perfect order in God's house and
in His ways. You can't just waltz in and start re-arranging His furniture
any way you please. It looks to me like she has chosen all by herself which
path to take.
@ Naval Vet"However, the tithing she will not pay, the talks she
will not give, the callings she will not fulfill, and temple work that she will
not do, will all be on the heads of those responsible for preventing her from
fulfilling those obligations."Boy did you really miss the mark
here. Ms Kelly is 100% responsible for this decision. She is the one who was
completely aware that this was the inevitable consequence of her repeated
actions against the church doctrines of priesthood and revelation for the
church. No one but Ms Kelly, filled with pride, caused this sad outcome with
far reaching consequences well beyond her.
Ms. Kelly's legal training may have informed her tactics but her arrogance
did not permit her to think clearly - and remember that religion is not a
democracy. And religious doctrine is not the same as a democracy's laws
and rules. I don't buy Ms. Kelly's surprise at being threatened with
excommunication. Anyone with common sense could see this coming a mile away.
If she has a big desire to be ordained there are plenty of other churches she
can join.Some churches even have female apostles. I do not know why
women are not now ordained. I do know that some priesthood calling take a lot of
time outside the home.Jesus had plenty of female friends but I never heard
of a female apostle or 70 in the Church of Jesus Christ of Former-day Saints."He will yet reveal many great and important things." (Article
of Faith)Meekness and patience is a virtue.
I am very sad for the many saints in the Barcelona Mission who looked to Ms
Kelly for direction. She testified of the priesthood, being from God. She
testified of a living prophet to whom we should look for revelation pertaining
to the whole church. She taught people to pray and then to listen humbly for
answers. And then she chooses to launch a very public campaign calling for the
ordination of women to the priesthood, so that they can be equal to men and have
greater opportunities to serve in the highest councils of the church. She has
no clue about the dozens of meetings held every month by committee after
committee where many women take their rightful place and contribute in a most
equal way to all present. Often times, the greatest input comes from those
women. Women who are diligent, faithful, humble, and stalwart serve with the
greatest distinction. But also equal to those women, are the primary workers,
Young Women leaders, and Relief Society board members. All people are equal in
God's eyes. He just asks us to lift where we stand. Every good thing
She is free to choose and she did. That is all. Not a big deal.
I saw this comment on one article and found it both insightful and
interesting:"I am surprised to see so many people say that Kate
Kelly hasn't done anything to lead people away from the church, and then
admit that they themselves are considering leaving the Church. This is all a
result of her actions, and by saying that you are leaving, you are showing how
correct the Church has been on their stance. I'm sorry to see so many of my
brothers and sisters hurting for disobedience and hope they take the opportunity
to see why having an OW profile is sowing the seeds of apostasy and they humble
themselves and come back."Having read this, I do wonder what the
future holds for the current supporters of this group, now that the leader and
founder has been excommunicated.Having an OW profile isn't worth losing
ones membership or good standing over. I am hopeful there are some who seek to
be humble and turn from these ways but I see so much anger and hard heartedness
that I wonder what the future holds for them and their membership.
Poor misguided woman. How sad to be separated from your Church and your God
because you feel God was speaking personally to you to change His precepts. But
you know, in your heart of hearts that what you did was wrong; that it was in
direct violation of your temple covenants and that you were telling the Church
of Jesus Christ that they are wrong. You expect them to change their ways
because of your words and not regard the words of God and revelation. I've
watched you, although not with true interest at first and then with horror
because the path you were taking was paved for you by the adversary. The more
your voice was heard, the braver you became and eventually the pride and
self-justification which overtook your persona were not coming from God nor were
they faith-strengthening or inspiring others in the faith. You will never be
happy until you follow the guidance of your bishop and come back into the fold.
Hear the voice of the Shepherd and come back into the safety of His love and
into His fold. Please don't let the adversary lead you. Be humble; come
Excommunication is the beginning of the repentance process.She knew where
her actions would take her. She refused to hearken to council. She attacked the
church.Doesn't she know what it means to follow the Prophet?Feminism had become her religion.
VanceoneYou have been severely misled if you think that only men
have held the priesthood for 7,000 years. Even in the early Mormon church women
gave blessings by the laying on of hands, and thus, the priesthood. So no, that
is not the case.
patriot"The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is not a
political organization where lobbying and political pressure create change in
doctrine any more than someone in Jesus's day doing the same thing."Funny, you must have forgot the reason that the church changed the
doctrine of polygamy was so that they could become a state.
Sorry Kate, but you don't make up the rules.
I was excommunicated from the Church 20 years ago this week, for entirely
different reasons than Kate Kelly, but I understand what it feels like. The one
thing that was very different is that I knew that was the right decision in my
case. It is quite simple. I had made solemn covenants in the Temple, and I
violated those sacred promises. Although the Spirit had long since left me,
there was a very real and tangible feeling the next day that I no longer had the
Gift of the Holy Ghost. It took me 7 years for the reconvening of the
Disciplinary Council. I was so eager to return that I was baptized that very
night. I immediately knew that something wonderful had returned, that being the
Gift of the Holy Ghost. A year later, my Priesthood and Temple blessings were
restored, and I got engaged yo my wonderful wife that same day. I am still
learning and growing, but I value my membership in the Lord's Church. It
means so much to me, because it was hard to get back. I sincerely hope that
Sister Kelly will repent. There is no greater joy!
It is sad that the general public as well as these ordain women founders are so
confused about the priesthood and what it means. The priesthood is not a
position of control or domination or power, it is a position of humble
servitude. It is a responsibility and an obligation. Christ used the power of
the priesthood to bless and heal the blind and the deaf and to raise the dead.
Christ was a Servant! So the reality is that the priesthood is about service.
Kelly is confused and what is more unfortunate is that she is misleading many
with her determination to disparage and demonize the church.
I just finished watching "17 Miracles" and it moved me to tears. I was
especially moved by the fact that every one of the miracles was performed by or
came to the Sisters in the Handcart Company. The using of the priesthood power
was fully displayed as available to women - there was no need for ordination to
the priesthood. I suggest that Kelly return to the basics of our faith and
rebuild her understanding and faith. And then return to the Church where we will
welcome her back with open arms.
Pretty interesting reading this evening. The commentary runs the gamut from
those that know and understand LDS discipline and doctrine to those members that
don't, to those outside the church that do and don't as well. Pretty
amazing the amount of interest in this story.While I'm not at
all surprised to hear of this woman's excommunication I am glad that it has
occurred for her sake and as it signals the end of this topic in the coming days
or weeks. Though it is sad that she chose this ending, it is of her
own choosing. Yes, she could have chosen another outcome had she acted upon the
counsel given to her previously.Being excommunicated will now give
her two choices... 1) a chance to really experience 'a broken
heart and contrite spirit' if she misses the full fellowship of the church
and to work on readmission OR 2) more time to advance the OW agendaSad to say that from her actions I would not be surprised that she
chooses to continue on with OW.Poor choice. I hope she
takes advantage of the rare opportunity she has... to start anew.
On the one hand, how many non-members will now refuse to hear the missionaries
because of this publicity and how many members will allow this controversy to
put a wedge between them and the church? On the other hand, will the
church one day be led by divine revelation to ordain women and would this
controversy have helped that day to come.
@ Pragmatistferlife, 7:55 PM, 6/23 ---You said: "The good news
sister, you are now free. Free to be a woman, free to be a human, free to be a
leader. ...Trust me this is the best day of your life."Reply:
If you are LDS, and truly understand the doctrines and policies of the Church,
then I'm afraid you are blindly following the same misguided path that
Sister Kelly sadly was on!This was without doubt the WORST day in
eternity for Kate Kelly!And to falsely encourage her that now she is
"free"?!? Sad.She is no longer "free" to attend the
temple; no longer free to hold church callings; or to contribute tithes and
offerings to the Kingdom; or to "bless" the lives of her family through
Priesthood power; no longer free to use her agency within the auspices of the
Church; etc. etc.; and no longer "free" to receive all the concomitant
blessings associated with church membership!Kate Kelly has LOST an
endless list of unspeakable blessings and freedoms this day! My heart is truly
broken for her. How can you possibly be proud-of and happy-for her in light of
Hard to believe that two church disciplinary committees almost simultaneously
considering the possibility of excommunication to two individuals are
independent and without direction.
This action should stand as an example to other women in the OW movement. To
openly and publicly work to convert others to positions against the official
doctrine of the Church, will eventually lead you out of the Church...either by
your choice or by excommunication. Either one costs the person involved the
loss of the greatest blessings available to members of the Church. I certainly
hope others will learn from this tragic choice this woman has made.
Ms kelly clearly has not grasped the concept within the lds faith of present day
revelation. This is not a question about doctrine but an obvious claw for power
and agitating the church with her demands on her terms. God speaks via his
prophet. . If she was sincere she would pray about her dilemma. She would
approach her bishop who would give her sound advice . The new york times gave
her a platform to voice her opinions and her opinions only.Wishing her and
her family well especially her spouse
This excommunication gives credence to the entire anti-mormon world. It vividly
demonstrates the real differences with this 1830 religion that has never really
come out into the 21 st century. Non mormons all over the US have already fought
and won most of the battles for equality of the sexes. To have this Church stand
up and take this struggle back into the 1800s is very revealing and extremely
damaging to the LDS Church. especially coming so close on the heels of the
Mormon Moment, aka Mitt Romney. If you ever wondered if Mitt Romney would run
for President again wonder no more.
Most religions thrive on men telling women what to do. Goes to the male
superiority complex. How sad for all concerned.
What a sad day for Kate Kelly. But one she had to know was coming by taking the
path she did. I hope she does some serious thinking about who was guiding her
actions. It certainly wasn't Heavenly Father. She needs to ask herself,
what effect has this political stand had on her plan of salvation? She needs to
read her church history. Other people have tried to take down the church of
Jesus Christ, they have failed. I truly feel sorry for her Bishop. I know how
deeply the Bishops love their flock. If it is any consolation, he did the right
thing. I am a woman in this church and do not feel treated "less than".
As a woman, I feel she has created strife where it need not be. The women of
this church do wondrous work. I am happy I'm not Kate Kelly today. I would
not want to wake up knowing that I was not a member of my church. So sorry for
I am another who is deeply saddened by what KK has chosen to embrace. It not
only affects her, but her family, especially innocent children, friends,
associates, descendants, contacts from her mission, fellow missionaries, that
many who follow this story, and the others who have joined her organized attack
on the very priesthood she seeks. After reading her legal brief, I stand in
complete disbelief that she is proud of herself for submitting that document to
her former bishop. Really, Kate? A legal brief offered as support in a
disciplinary council that lambastes the priesthood process of Christ-like divine
love? Taking on this agenda has resulted in a complete withdrawal of the
Spirit. A lifelong church member who has been blessed with so much could not
possibly be further away from thinking on the spiritual plane that you must have
once had. I have seen this in people after inactivity in the church, but this
is a time I have seen it pronounced in one who has remained active while
embracing such a course of self destruction. I look forward to a joyful
heart-tugging day when we hear that KK has returned. Please return, KK.
Inspector C. I wouldn't expect you to understand or agree.You
say "no longer free to use her agency within the auspices of the Church;
etc. "Better said she is no longer obligated to do what she is
told by the men in her life. Agency "in the church" is simply the
ability to agree or not agree and if you disagree, you will likely suffer
consequences of their choosing. "Kate Kelly has LOST an endless
list of unspeakable blessings and freedoms this day!" What she's lost
is her association with the Mormon church. She may or may not view that
association as a blessing..her choice. To describe this loss of association as a
loss of freedoms however is pure delusional.
One cannot stand against God and succeed. The former missionary in question
might recall the account of another attorney, Zeezrom, who rallied the people of
his time against the prophet. Alma and Amulek were beaten and imprisoned and the
believers, their women and children were burned to death and their records
destroyed.Simply "questioning" the authorities produced dire
results in this case. Happily in the end, Zeezrom was saved. I hope Ms. Kelly
too finds the Lord, and I certainly hope the backlash from her malcontent does
not injure the innocent.
@ Ernest T. BassThere is plenty of room for discourse know facts
before talking. Since you brought up parents; if parents say no you don't
keep harping on parents it does not help your cause. To be a member of the
church you sustain your church leaders. You do not try and speak for the church.
Your don affiliate with groups that go against the teachings of the church. This
isn't open to go with the whims of individuals. If whims were followed
Ninaveh would have been destroyed because that's what Jonah wanted to see.
If you don't like organized religion fine you don't have to but
don't try and tell any religion what their doctrine should be or how they
should follow their doctrine.
Those that are happy to see her get exed completely miss the point. Rejoicing in
another's condemnation is pretty messed up. Also, those who say that she
opposed Church doctrine don't understand Church doctrine. Joseph Smith
ordained women. The modern Church is getting the doctrine wrong, not Kate Kelly.
Ally Isom admitted it to Doug Fabrizio. No where does it say that women cannot
be ordained--it isn't doctrine. It is an outdated policy.
As in the past, this will only strengthen the church, though it will try the
character of some. We're here to be purged, not pacified.
This is a doctrinal issue. The acknowledgement that she is an
"international human rights attorney" who moved to Provo, Utah should
have sent up "hurricane warnings".
To Ernest T. Bass and others who have similar opinions: Kate Kelly openly defied
counsel from her local leaders. The church is not a democracy. It's a
theocracy. It's the Church of Jesus Christ, not the church of Kate Kelly.
Jesus Christ is the head of the church. We don't choose our leaders. Yes,
we raise hands in church to "sustain" certain people who have received
callings to act in certain capacities (i.e. Sunday school teacher, librarian,
Elders quorum president, etc.) but the raising of hands is not a vote of whether
that person should occupy the position or not. It is a confirmation that we will
support the person in their calling. Kate Kelly crossed the line when she left
the questioning phase of her beliefs and began actively promoting them.I sincerely hope that she can come to her senses and realize what she's
done. Only then can the repentance process begin.
Rather than reading postings on local news sources, I've spent the last
few hours looking at comments from out of state, national and international news
sources. Google lists 12 off the top and has links to "explore in depth"
that will take you to another 476 news postings on this story. They range from
references to local intermountain outlets to national news services like NBC and
USA Today to international sources like the BBC for example. The common thread
as I have read thru a selection of the comments is the almost universal
condemnation of the church for it's actions. The other thing I have noticed
is the harshness of the comments. Those who think the comments found in local
sources are extreme should sample some of the national and international ones
and really get a dose of reality. It appears to me that the Mormon Church has a
PR nightmare raging. It will be interesting to see what actions they take
Even though I don't support Kelly to ordain women to the priesthood, I
agree with her when she says women in the church should have equal rights. By
this I mean women should be treated with respect and their concerns taken
seriously. The priesthood is here to protect the weak and to serve, especially
those sisters that are widowed and single who are more vulnerable. Instead of
that, there have been several occasion in which women have been mistreated by
men in the church in public places and when they try to find support and
protection in their leaders, the offender becomes more important than the
victim. They are instructed to forget about the issue and to forgive.While forgiveness is good, it doesn't have anything to do with being
safe. When leaders find out from aggressive men, discipline should come right
away to make it clear to the offender the church of Jesus Christ will not
tolerate aggressive behavior against women or others. Until this is explained
clearly to the brethren and until the brethren start living this principle,
there will not be equal rights in the church for women.
@JohnCohenYou refer to the ordination of women by Joseph Smith.
Please give your source. Tell us to what office they were ordained, and please
tell us what priesthood leadership callings they were called to that warranted
these ordinations. Thanks. Your information could be very enlightening.
I think we all knew this was coming. Good for her for standing up for her
beliefs whatever the cost.
ON PRIESTHOOD.... The following is doctrine... It is from the Doctrine and
Covenants Sec. 121After you finish reading this... tell me if the OW
movement and its leader would merit any power from the priesthood under current
attitudes. While they could have authority if ordained, they could have no
power...QUOTE: 36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected
with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled
nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. 37 That they may be
conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to
gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or
compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of
unrighteousness behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord
is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of
that man." I would encourage anyone to read the rest of that section.
AMEN... Now, Mrs. Kelly, hurry home, we are here and waiting to receive you
again..for friends at first, are friends at last.
The mantle of membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is
not a cloak of comfort but rather a robe of responsibility. Our duty, in
addition to saving ourselves, is to guide others to the celestial kingdom of
God.—Thomas S. Monson.
This was a no brainer for the Church leaders. Sedition is not and should not be
tolerated in any organization that has standards, ethics, honor and integrity.
Ernest T. Bass: She did a LOT more than ask. she fomented rebellion, refused to
listen to leadership, lied to the press about the actions, and, if she has truly
been a member and done all she has said, then she knew where this would end up
at the beginning. Also, where do you come up with "bullying of her
parents" I'd admit that if that really happened, then it was terrible.
but having had 2 of my children undergo church courts, I'll say that I was
never told about it until those 2 children chose to tell me. I was never
bullied or oppressed in any way, and if they (her parents) received any kind of
feedback, it was likely due to Kate's own words and actions to the public
I did not know the church was ex-communicating several members until this issue
with Kelly happened. After I learned from Kelly I continued reading and I also
learned about John Dehlin, then I read some more and learned other members were
already ex-communicated the previous weeks for writing books, blogs, etc. I
don't have all the details about the other cases. Anyway, I am
glad Kelly made her case public; otherwise, I wouldn't have known any of
this. I like to be informed about what happens in the church. I doubt anyone
else would have informed us about these problems. I don't like to be in the
dark. I also.like to know how the church treats its members. The church can
preach any doctrines they want but if they don't live up to those
doctrines, they loose credibility and trust with the public and its members. I
already made the decision long time ago, I will not be part of any church or
organization that mistreats people, regardless of if they are right or wrong.
It is interesting that many assume that this decision will hurt the ability of
the Church to reach out to non-members. It is apparent that KK has tried to use
negative publicity against the Church for her benefit. However, I think the
result will be just the opposite. Many Christian churches are struggling. They
change abandon their doctrine to try and reach more people and it has the
opposite effect.Most people who are baptized are looking for
something more. They do not want a social club where a vocal minority can
change the rules. They want to belong to an organization where the Lord sets
the rules and we strive to live up to them.While I am sorry for KK
that she has elected to leave the church, I am not sorry for the Church. There
are enough antis outside the Church that we do not need more inside the Church
fostering contention. Hopefully she will have a change of heart. Based on
experience, however, I doubt it. Just like Sonia Johnson, she has earned her
feminist bona fides - which is apparently what she really wanted.
Thankyou for publishing this article. It cleared up several
questions I had over this matter....(I wish the church could actually make
public some of its disciplinary councils especially those involving members who
make their cases public, as in Kate Kelly case)Before this article
all I read where disparaging commentary and arguments against the church. Now thanks to this article I can understand why they had to
excommunicate her and what some of the reasoning behind that action was.
I disagree with those insisting, "all she did was ask". Absolutely NOT
TRUE. The bishop's letter makes that clear. As evident in his counsel to
her, there's a terrible difference between asking a question versus
unwillingness to accept the answer, insisting on openly and actively provoking
negative attention on the church, and attempting to recruit as many others as
possible to follow your disregard for answers formally and appropriately given,
despite direct counsel to not do so. Such defiance surely indicates lack of any
belief or conviction that church leadership is inspired and have the blessing
and approval of God, and if you feel that way and view the church as a social
organization to be manipulated by popular vote and not as being governed by
doctrine truly originating from God, why then would you want to be in the
church? That's inherently contradictory. Nevertheless, as expressed by
most, I agree that we should hold out hope that she may yet repent, set her life
in order, and cease the efforts to gain attention and promote herself and the
misguided cause she's been espousing.
I heard her interviewed on a radio station here in my town a couple of weeks
ago. She said that no one in leadership in her ward or stake had attempted to
talk to her about her "issues". I felt sorry for her. She seemed so
sincere. I don't believe in her cause at all, but her interview softened
my heart towards her. I felt that she was sincere, but misguided. When it was
documented that she had met with her ward and stake leaders, and that she was
actually put on church probation, I felt lied too. No more sympathy from me!
She is a human rights lawyer and activist. Perhaps she may be thinking that if
she actually got the church to change its position that she would be the
greatest human rights lawyer ever in the history of all mankind! This is not
the last we have heard from her, that's for sure. Media outlets will be
seeking interviews with her and her followers for many General Conferences,
especially priesthood sessions, in the future...and yet, we will go forward!
Well duh. How is this is news? It seems more like the logical conclusion to her
course of action.
As I've researched the Mormon church and been meeting with a couple of
Mormon missionaries, I've had several questions. This issue with Miss Kelly
brings up one again: Do Mormon doctrines change? The missionaries seam to
believe they don't.
There is a far cry difference from set apart to do a task and ordained to the
priesthood. Joseph Fielding Smith provides a very clear understanding of the
@The Real Maverick:"Let this be a lesson to others who desire to
overrule those called to receive revelation for the church. No matter how loud
you are, how popular you become, and how many cameras you seek out, you cannot
overrule the church's inspired leadership."Blind,
unquestioning, strident, obedience to church leaders is just as dangerous to the
soul as open, rebellion.I think that your glee with her being
excommunicated is out of order.
I feel rather sad to here about Kelly but it's obvious that she does not
understand revelation and how the Lord works and conducts His affairs. It is the
Lord she is fighting against not the Church as such and I personally would not
like to be in her shoes. But saying that His arms are always open and we have
the rest of this life to repent. Unfortunately we don't know when our
mortal life will be brought to an end. All through the scriptures there is no
mention of women priesthood but women hold a very special place in the
Lord's eyes and they have a more important role to fulfill in this life. I
believe that women do more in this church than in any other even though there
are female clergy in other religions. They do in fact play a vital in the smooth
running of the church.I hope she comes back into full fellowship for
I believe that time is running out.
I'm afraid ordination of women was only the tip of the iceberg for OW. It
doesn't take much imagination to think where she and others might next
focus their efforts to remove what they believe is sexism. There seems to be
affinity with the LGBT community and gay marriage among Kelly's followers
(active homosexuals, not just those with same-sex attraction.) Some Mormon
feminists have attacked the temple as a place where inequality is taught (which
I do not accept.) She and her group were wrong in the attempt to proselytize,
but they are just as wrong in the "questions" they are asking and the
doubts they are attempting to cultivate.
JohnCohen,"....No where does it say that women cannot be
ordained--it isn't doctrine. It is an outdated policy."______________________________In the early Christian Church, there
were documented cases of women deacons and priests. A tradition of an
exclusively male priesthood emerged under the early Popes and developed into
Church doctrine. There is no scriptural basis for such a gender restriction. The
current controversy surrounding Kate Kelly’s cause illustrates the extent
to which the LDS Church is more a product of orthodox Christian tradition than
the restored Church it proclaims itself to be.
The saddest part is I think she, at least partially, wanted this to happen. She
is even now using it to further her cause, by going to the press and publicizing
it. Rather than humbly accepting that she did wrong by the church in her
recruiting people to a cause directly in opposition to a teaching and policy of
the Church, she is pridefully using it to try to further her cause. She is even
lying about the effect it will have, saying it is removing her from her
congregation etc. The email she made public even says she is still invited to
come to Church. No one would have even known about this (except a select few) if
she had not decided to use this.One more thing, contrary to comments
on here from some anti-Mormons, she was not excommunicated for questioning. She
was not excommunicated merely for holing that belief. She was excommunicated for
directly going against the church and aggressively recruiting others to a cause
that could lead others to losing faith in the Church. Every Church (every
organization for that matter) has the right to protect their beliefs,
principles, and/or teachings.
I am surprised at the arrogance of the responses regarding Katie Kelly. On the
one hand I don't think she should necessarily continue to push for what it
appears the majority of the women in the church do not want. On the other hand,
she is not committing a sin by any stretch of the imagination. They said Katie
Kelly's conduct has been contrary to the laws and order of the church.
What laws? What order? Apparently everyone has forgotten that there were
female prophet's in the Old Testament. Something happened that they were
not longer holding that office, but it was not unheard of.
Ms. Kelly, start your own church and you can make all of the doctrinal
The Church is not a democracy, but it is nevertheless true that not all change
comes from the top down. Members (and even outsiders, as in the case of
polygamy and Church racial doctrine) do have the power to influence the
leadership to change teachings, and have successfully done so on multiple
occasions.But you can't be too obviously adversarial about it.
Starting a formal group, and holding media-driven street-theater events,
positions you too much like an opponent and not a loyal opposition. And then
the Church can't afford to give in to you, because it has so much invested
in the appearance that it is not influenced by anything but direct revelation.
I just can't help but feel that the attitudes, methods and tactics of Kate
Kelly and her organization are very similar to the attitudes, methods and
tactics that were used by dissenters during that period referred to as the war
Regardless of whether you agree with Ms. Kelly, this is clearly a case of her
wanting attention. She has sought every opportunity to be on TV. She continues
to feed the media with more sordid details. Sending the media copies of her
private letters from the church shows her true intent: to gain attention. She
even said so herself when asked about the ticket request to the priesthood
session: she said this was an effort to draw attention.I supposed it
can be very intoxicating to have the media and supporters heaping praise and
attention on you. It certainly appears to me that the attention was far more
important to her than actually following the counsel of those she claimed to
None of this should be any of our business. This is the business of the Local
Church Authorities, Katy Kelly and God.
From the Ordain Women website:"As a group we intend to put
ourselves in the public eye and call attention to the need for the ordination of
Mormon women to the priesthood."This says it all. I believe
that for most on all sides of this concern, this is truly a sad day for someone
brought on my the actions Ms Kelly. All members of the church would welcome
your return with loving arms encircling you, Kate. Imagine one day being
welcome in His Holy Temple again. No day will be looked on with greater favor
from our God and His Son.
Twin Lights,Don't get me wrong, It's not that I'm sad
for Kate exclusively. I'm sad that there is such disregard for Kate by
members of the church. Have you even stopped to think about Kate as a person
rather than the sum of her actions (right/wrong)? What 'apostacy' was
she committing? She felt that women should be ordained to the priesthood. SO
WHAT? Was she laying hands on women ordaining them to the priesthood? No. Was
she claiming to have the priesthood? No. Was she asking for
'executive' callings in the church? No. Was she claiming that the
Church had gone astray? No. She had a hope that she would be heard and that her
concern, and others who felt the same, would be validated and that a discussion
be opened on this topic. I know most LDS people can't handle diverging
thought and discussion. But without diverging thought, action, and a prayer by a
14 year old boy who didn't agree with religions convention there may not
have been a priesthood to discuss. Maybe I should be excommunicated because I
rejected the FP's counsel and didn't have FHE last night?
KannYou're right you never did say that leadership wasn't
necessary, however this is what you did say."Those who follow a
man or “priesthood” have a religion but they don’t have a
relationship with God.Now you'll have to explain to me why
Christ laid his hands on the heads of his apostles to give them his priesthood,
is a man such as Peter isn't important with his priesthood (given to him
directly by our Lord and Savior) What real need do we have for leadership in any
church? If we all can cultivate a saving relationship just through Christ, what
need is there for a proper baptism? Christ did everything the way the Father
would have done it, That includes passing his priesthood to his worthy male
leaders of his church. It is a practice that continues to this day in his
It sounds like the bishop just reached the end of his rope and had no other
options. Difficult people are unreasonable because often they see themselves as
victims, something Kelly obviously believed about herself. She is not the first
person to take that path and will not be the last.
"Kate Kelly has LOST an endless list of unspeakable blessings and freedoms
this day!"Like what? Endless? Really?I have been a
"non-member" attending LDS meetings and activities with my LDS wife for
three decades. I am unable to give prayers or talks, unable to hold positions
and formal "callings" (although I've helped clean buildings, done
service projects, helped with scouting, one canning assignments, etc.), not
allowed to wear Temple garments, and some other things.The only
thing I truly missed out on over the years was attending one of my
children's temple wedding. But I have heard descriptions and it
doesn't sound like I missed much at all. I have dear friends in
the Church with whom I have had deep discussions, and they seem more burdened
than "blessed" by trying to "keep up with the Smiths" and keep
up appearances, and give the appearance of superior worthiness so as to get
called to more impressive positions.I don't think many LDS
members truly appreciate how rich, fulfilling, and "blessed" life can be
"outside" of the Church.
I don't see how she can ever become a "son" of Abraham.
Not any of our business that she got ex'd. That's her very
preventable problem.I hope that sometime she goes and reads D&C
121. That section scares me an makes me realize that I have to be careful in
how I deal with my family, others, and how I use my Priesthood. She appears to
want the unrighteous dominion right at the beginning.Sad for her and
her family. Ernest, I read nothing in the article that says her
parents bullied her.
I believe that God ordains only men to the priesthood for a very important
reason; they need it and the world needs for them to have it. It is
a natural division of duty. Women learn compassion and service from their
divine role as mothers. If women had the priesthood, men would let them take
care of the Church, as well as home stewardship. Many of my protestant friends
have women clergy and the men in their congregations have receded into the
background as merely observers of the faith, and no longer doers. The problem is that many men have seen the priesthood as a stamp of
superiority and entitlement. They need to repent of that. I, for
one, am glad that my husband has special meetings for him to attend. When he
comes home, he usually says to me "can you see the boot print on my backside
from the butt kicking I just got?" The duties of the priesthood humble him
and remind him of the man he tries to be. Our family is truly blessed by the
influence of the priesthood in our lives.
Sonia Johnson used the media to plead her case and shame the Church. Look what
it got her.
The Scientist,I am glad you have those friendships and familial
ties. Clearly those faithful folks find that, on balance, the blessings
outweigh the burdens.
Lost in all of this is Bishop Harrison. Here is a man called to lead his Ward.
He puts in long hours and has no compensation for it. He must sacrifice time
with his family to serve. On top of that, he had this agonizing decision placed
upon him.His letter is a wonderfoul example of love and correction,
which is exactly what Jesus did so often in the New Testament. Bishop Harrison
is a Judge in Israel. Having sat with my bishop in a few council, and seeing
his agony, I can only imagine how hard this process has been on this good
Bishop.Thank you, Bishop, for your dedicated service to the Lord and
the members of your Ward!!!!
I have been thinking a lot about this situation. Being an inactive member of
the Church I know enough to know that she had to be aware that she was going to
be Excommunicated for her actions. Although it brings me no joy I must admit I
would have followed the same course the Church has in this situation.So why would a faithful obedient member of the Church take it this far knowing
her Excommunication was eminent? Why? Could it be Mrs. Kelly is
the one receiving inspiration from the Lord and the Brethren are the one's
not listening? Like it or not history dictates that our Church is progressive.
A perfect example is the Blacks finally receiving the Priesthood. The list of
changes the church has made to the original doctoren goes on and on. Perhaps
it's Mrs. Kelly who is listening and its the Brethren who don't like
the answer. I am Shure I am going to get flambéed for posing
this question. The Church is run by man and man can make mistakes. Do I
necessary believe this? No, but it is a possibility.It's just
food for thought.
Scientist, that's because our lives are rich and fulfilled just fine in the
church. I don't feel the desire to keep up with anyone else. I'm
responsible for my own salvation. I don't feel the need to "prove my
superior worthiness" to anyone except when I get a temple recommend in a
private interview. And my worthiness isn't superior to anyone else.
It is an interesting discussion, for sure. Some facts will be unchanged when the
dust settles on this sad event for Ms Kelly. Regardless of any opinion or
disagreement, in the end the integrity of the Church's doctrine will
remain. If your opinion sides with Ms Kelly and you are a member of the Church,
maybe some sincere personal study and prayer regarding the revelatory beginnings
of the Church, its core doctrines, and priesthood will answer your questions.
Core doctrines of this faith are not going to change unless the Lord directs it,
and revelation regarding doctrinal change for the church as a whole will come
from the top (Jesus Christ). That's simply how it works in this Church.
If you are not a member, but you have sincere questions and want to get past the
misinformation and argument, then in the words of a living apostle of the Lord,
simply "ask the missionaries, they can help you".
>>I don't think many LDS members truly appreciate how rich,
fulfilling, and "blessed" life can be "outside" of the
Church.I don't doubt that it can be. God loves all of His
children and wants them to be happy.But unless you've made and
kept the actual covenants with God that are part of church membership, you
won't know what you're really missing because you'll never have
experienced the blessings for yourself. Observing something and experiencing
something can be two very different things.Attending but never
joining is like watching someone else eat but never tasting the food for
yourself; or watching a sporting event from the stands but never playing on the
field. The food's a lot better when you're eating it and not just
looking at it; victory in sport is more exhilarating when you're a member
of thee team that wins the hard-fought game. And a relationship with the Lord is
much deeper when you can feel the Spirit working with you, changing your nature
as you keep those covenants and work to become more like Him.
@StandAlone"His ways do not change with the worldly wind. "
They do change, in the grand scheme of things God would rather be considered
quite bi-polar, like remember the time he changed his mind about black people.
--- President Benjamin Harrison; "hey mormons you can not have a state
unless you drop polygamy, oh and we will be able to take your property
away". Prophet Wilford Woodruff; hmm ok , oh wait a minute, wait a minute,
this just coming in, God just told me he changed his mind on Polygamy, so yeah
its bad, so bad *crosses fingers and continues. ….. year 1902, yup its
real bad so don't do it or we will excommunicate you cause it makes us look
bad *crosses fingers and continues. 1978 President Harry Truman: Hey
mormons you can't be tax exempt if you are going to keep being
discriminatory. Spencer W. Kimble: oh actually I'm just getting something
here… oh turns out God has changed his mind about blacks and not having
the priesthood.doesn't change with the worldly wind? give me a break.
Culture reflects god on to a canvas.
It is evident from the Bishop's letter that Mrs. Kelly was not altogether
truthful in her statements to the media about her dealings with her leaders.
Where I come from, it's called a lie.
This is part of the sifting process in the last days. Those that choose to
follow their own doctrine will do just that, regardless of what the doctrine of
their Church is. This sifting process will continue with this and other issues
of our time. This will not harm the LDS church but will draw those
that believe that religion is not man-made but is ordained of God. I feel bad that this woman choose to abandon a lifetime of belief so that she
could gain the national spotlight for her own political agenda. This will blow
over and will soon be forgotten by the media and she will be left to ponder her
ways. My hope is that those that have been blinded by her personal
agenda and want to maintain their membership in the Church will reconsider their
ways and disassociate themselves with this ill-fated movement.
All choices have consequences. Ms. Kelly is a well-educated attorney. Surely
she embarked on her Quixotic crusade knowing full well that it would likely
result in the consequence for her that it did. Faithful members of The Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sustain Thomas S. Monson as the only person
on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys.
Opponents and critics of the Church will scoff at this notion. Scoff away.
Priesthood authority is God’s authority, not Thomas Monson’s
authority. Those who sustain Thomas Monson as God’s authorized agent and
mouthpiece on the earth for our time would never have the unmitigated audacity
to demand that President Monson do anything that would contravene what God has
directed him to do. If she no longer believes this fundamental doctrine of the
Church, then in order for her to be “true to herself,” she should
have voluntarily relinquished her membership in the Church instead of forcing
this issue with a disciplinary council. And she didn’t know any of that?
I don’t think so.
Please, I beg every reader to go back about 10 comments and read the perfect one
by GeekUSA76. It is astonishing that the harshest punishment the church dishes
out--excommunication--is reserved for a humble young woman trying to do good,
only trying to do good. She is faithful and loyal to the church, and yet we
don't ex Shurtliff and Swallow, but we ex her? That is just wrong.
The unabashed glee expressed by so many writers here at her excommunication
leaves me to wonder why she, or anyone else, would want to belong to the same
church as those people. I'm very glad to be a Jew, a religion in which such
questions would be enthusiastically discussed by both lay people and rabbis
alike and where someone advocating an opinion in opposition to that of the
majority can still be a member in good standing. The fact that my rabbi is a
woman is because we already had this discussion long ago and two of the three
main branches of Judaism found no reason that a woman can't be a rabbi. We
still have people who disagree with ordination of women, but they're as
welcome in our services as any other Jew. One of the reasons we've lasted
for so many thousands of years is because we having stifled debate.
@ GameTheory -- "1978 President Harry Truman"?
GeekUSA76,I think the disregard you may see is because some of this
was easily anticipated that shock or surprise on her part is unwarranted. Yes,
I have certainly stopped to think of her as a person. I read her letter to
Bishop Harrison. It had a lot of good detail about her.The apostasy
had nothing to do with her beliefs. It was that she was teaching as doctrine
that the priesthood should be open to women. This is evident in the lessons
posted on the Ordain Women website (referenced in the letter from Bishop
Harrison). She was counseled to stop teaching these things. She adamantly
refused.This was not about the questions she may have had but about
the "answers" she was openly teaching to others.What sins
you or I commit are one thing. But when we teach others false doctrine
(doctrine specifically renounced by the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve)
then we should be wise enough to know the likely consequence.Honestly, I wish Ms. Kelly well. I hope she will have a change of heart and
be warmly welcomed home.
Let’s remember that Kate Kelly served a full time mission. That’s
two years of her life that she gave for the Church without receiving a dime in
compensation, two years she could have spent in college earning her law degree
two years earlier or two years in some other personal pursuit.That
alone is not the whole picture, of course, but it is a part of the whole
that’s not being mentioned enough. Just something to reflect on for those
eager to demonize her for doing something I think she sincerely believes in.
@steamroller:"Her big complaint was that the church is full of
'gender inequality.'There is substantial gender
inequality.Women can freely wear men's clothes... including
suits/ties. Men can't wear women's clothes (without being considered
kooky). Women can wear dresses at a variety of lengths all the way from mini to
maxi. If boys wear their pants slightly below the waistline they'd be
considered loose, sloppy, rakish.Men are encouraged to wear
suits/ties to church and white shirts with ties performing priesthood and other
church assignments. Women in Relief Society and Young Women's programs can
wear almost anything in any style/color/cut they wish (except
swimsuits/bikinis).Women can wear their hair long, short, in
between, and in a variety of colors/styles. Men are to have their hair short
with no coloring. Women can wear hats in church. Men would look/feel
stupid.I suspect, if females were to receive the priesthood they
would be required to adhere to a strict dress code like males. And I don't
think they'd like it very much. They're far better off without being
encumbered by a strict dress/appearance code.
@ mayan elephantAre you sure you really want full equality in the
church? Do you want women in the Bishopric and men in the Relief Society
presidency? Do you want a female Young Men's advisor and male Young
Women's advisor? Do you want a female deacon's quorum advisor and a
male beehive advisor? Do you not see the not only silly but down right
dangerous circumstance this would present? You can't have it both ways -
full equality in the church would mean just that - full equality in the church.
Please tell me how it would work out any other way?
@ Eliyahu"Unabashed Glee" Come on now, no one is dancing in
the streets. You of all people should know that perception of religion as viewed
from the outside is never reality. Your religion in particular. We have more in
common than you think. There is plenty of room for discussion in both our
Let me clarify something that was posted above. No Sister has ever had the
priesthood conferred upon them. This has not stopped them from giving blessings
or in some instances pass the sacrament. These were done without priesthood
authority which is how it is done outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints. These sisters again never had the priesthood conferred upon
them though they acted as if it had been. Better clarification is on the
official website.Secondly, I have lived outside of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for many years before I came back. I know now
what I missed in those years away from the Church. Today my life is happier and
simplier than it ever was outside. Those who feel it is much better really
don't know the eternal blessings that one shall miss. Some who have chosen
to not join even though they have been taught and testified too will find their
lives worthless when the final judgement comes. Those who have fallen away and
have not repented will suffer even greater judgements than those they criticize.
One of the beautiful things about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, is that usually every effort is given for anyone who shows acts of
apostasy, to return to full fellowship! It is also good to know that God is in
control of His Church and has established it since the beginning of time, to
function through the power of the priesthood. I am grateful for my position as a
woman in the Church, that I don't have the responsibility of the priesthood
along with the blessing and privilege of being a mother and being able to
nurture my children and care for my family. There is spirit about motherhood,
working in harmony with the priesthood, that builds the character foundation of
any nation, building strong and faithful children, believing in God and desiring
to achieve the highest potential within! To lose ones membership in the
Church, is a greater loss than any boundless treasure the world offers!
@Vanceone Provo, UTTotally not surprising. She
tried to steady the ark. Repeatedly. Again I ask: What, exactly, was she
thinking? The Priesthood has been exclusively male for 7,000 years. What made
her think that she was going to change that?Are you positive that in
the last 7,000 years there hasn't been any matriarchal societies or
cultures that have had priestesses? Christianity on the other hand has
only been around approx. 2,000 years and most Xtian religions have not had women
in leadership roles until recently.
There are few individuals who are finding "glee" or
"satisfaction" from what has just transpired. Mr. Kelly is a child of
God, just like you and me, and He loves and cares for her.However, I
am grateful for a process that protects the Church from those who begin to
pursue a personal agenda. As sad as it is to realize the potential loss for not
only Ms. Kelly, but also her extended family and friends as well, the Lord has
clearly stated (and I paraphrase) that it is better for one person to perish
than for an entire nation to dwindle in unbelief.God has entrusted
the leaders of His Church to protect the members of his flock. I am thankful
that they take this responsibility seriously.
Surely Sister Kelly was not the only one facing a disciplinary council in the
past few days. Oddly enough, the only one I have heard, read about, seen so
publicly is hers. Nobody else ran to the media to garner support. I feel sad
for her and her family.
@ The Scientist, 10:54 AM ---Thanks for sharing such a personal
experience and for your insights; seriously-- thank you! I never knew all of
that information before about your background.You have a very unique
life experience that we all can learn something from. And all humans (on this
spaceship called "Earth") need to keep an open mind and show more
respect to each others' opinions and belief-windows. Thanks again! 8)
Such loving posts. People who a totally devoid of anger or vindictiveness.
It's clear that the love of our fellow man is what's important to most
of the 233 who have posted today. I love how everyone ends their posts with
comments like "how sad." That proves that they are really sad and
concerned. And when they offer a prayerful desire for this woman to come to her
senses and return to the fold? I can tell they really, sincerely mean it.
@ Craig ClarkYes, she did serve, and that was voluntary service. No
one compelled her to go. Many who have served faithful missions have fallen
away over the years.Sincere belief is one thing. Open defiance of
the prophet and chruch leatership is another.@ hockeymom:So true. If you take many of these "equality" demands to their
logical conclusion, where you end up is an untenable and quite ludicrious
The caravan rolls on.
@ Scientist:I echo InspectorC's sentiments. If I lived in
Provo, I would be delighted you have you as a friend. It appears we're
around the same age and we could have some great conversations while we ate
pizza and drank root beer near the BYU campus. (DN policy prohibits me from
naming the location we would eat said pizza, but you know where I mean.)Thank you for sharing your insights. And thank you for supporting your
family in their Church activity, including cleaning the meetinghouse. I was a
part-time meetinghouse custodian for 23+ years, so I appreciate your willingness
to help out with that task.
The Church is always changing. Joseph Smith wouldn't recognize the church
today. They will eventually cave in on this issue as well. Just a matter of
Well the way I see it is that she was excommunicated by human beings from the
Church. It's not like she was rebuked by god. Her bishop made a decision to
excommunicate her. I think such a decision will backfire in the end. The letter,
published in the Salt Lake Tribune, clearly indicates that the men who run the
show are upset that she won't keep her opinion to herself. I don't
think it's fair for a church to make an assumption that it has a monopoly
on salvation and communication with god, when it isn't god that is
deciding who gets to be in the church, but a "disciplinary council."
I don't see what the big issue about excommunication is. Salvation
isn't dependent on membership in a temporal church. All that matters is
what's in your heart. If Kate's faith is strong then losing her
membership in the church is no big deal. The individuals who excommunicated Kate
are just men after all, even if they do pray for guidance, and are certainly not
the ultimate arbiters as to Kate's celestial bliss.Let's
not forget that many of the holiest people in scripture were the ones who were a
thorn in the side of the leadership of the time.Kate should just
take the excommunication in stride and keep on with following her own conscience
with prayerful thought and reflection of her own.
Why doesn't she just start her own Mormon church! She can declare her
church the true and living church of God and she will receive the revelations
she feels she is getting. Then every hater can put their money where
their mouth is and attend President Kelly's church weekly.
The term authentic as bantered about by Kate Kelly is somewhat intriguing.
After all, one could reasonably argue that the "Natural Mam" might be
defined as authentic.
Lets view the church from two viewpoints, social and spiritual. The social
involves relationships between members, potluck dinners, dances, etc. The
spiritual involves revelations, doctrine, priesthood ordinations, etc.I'm guessing that Kelly looked at the church from the social viewpoint,
that the church is led by men who make decisions and set policies. Blogs and
protests are appropriate ways of influencing people to change their decisions
and policies. Kelly's disciplinary council probably looked at
the church from both viewpoints, and their decisions were appropriate for the
spiritual view but less appropriate for the social view.It seems to
me that the problem involved with this situation comes from the church being
both social and spiritual. Sister Kelly and the OW organization did influence
policies of the church. Examples are the opening of the Saturday priesthood
session to women (via TV), more women giving prayers and talks in conference,
and discussions of the priesthood among priesthood leaders and lay members.
However, the OW is to be faulted for not recognizing that their actions are
inappropriate for the LDS church. It takes time for the church to change its
policies. And, some policies will only change if God changes them.
When the church begins to have such a profound involvement in the lives of
non-members and the community at large, it should be held to the standards that
govern other public institutions, like due process, equal protection and
transparency. Good for her to call these men to account. We've all had
enough of the righteous bullying done in the name of supernatural hocus pocus.
It's time for a little reality check.
Hmm, so the truth comes out that this woman isn't really telling the truth
about events after all. She's outright deceptive.
Does anybody really find this entire situation surprising? An excommunication,
contention among members within the church, the world watching, judging,
pointing, hating, laughing . . . these ARE the last days. As a member of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, there is no room here to quietly
going about your business. We will either stand strong and steadfast or fall to
the wayside. I have a feeling this is just the beginning. It's time to
decide which side of the fence we will stand on. I have chosen my side and will
fight for my testimony of the restored gospel and a living prophet every single
@ Midwestmom. *Jimmy Carter, my mistake. my comment still stands to be answered
"The Church is always changing. Joseph Smith wouldn't recognize the
church today. They will eventually cave in on this issue as well. Just a matter
of time."Some may see it as changing, but I think Joseph Smith
would still recognize that the principles of the gospel and the teachings of
salvation have not changed.
@GameTheoryAsked and answered many times, but like KK, the answer is
never good enough. But thanks for asking.
Could it be that as human rights attorney, Mrs. Kelly got what she wanted; The
One of the most interesting things I have found is that she separated herself
from her husband by going by a different last name. Maybe her maiden name? Did
he not want her to do this so she isn't going by her married last name?
Mormon doctrine honors women and teaches the true dignity of womanhood. It is
sad to see this woman, excommunicated now, narrow the scope of things that she
values down to this one issue. It is sad to see her trade the inestimable
blessings offered by the church for the purpose of promoting a narrow and
conception of equality. Women have a divine purpose and destiny, co-equal with
men. To attack church teachings on the priesthood is to devalue that purpose
and destiny. It means that she no longer understands the eternal significance of
motherhood and family. Her conceptions are now circumscribed by the beliefs and
prejudices of our day. Mother, wife, home, and family are phenomena pregnant
with eternal significance. In our day when exact 50/50 split in domestic and
professional duties is the only acceptable division of labor, the eternal
significance of gender, home, and family is lost. Roles are devalued. These
developments have injured the family. A woman who values motherhood above all
else and considers her domestic duties to be of preeminent importance is the
most valuable ingredient a society has. Societies that have forgotten this are
dying. Shrinking with each generation.
Church disciplinary hearings are supposed to be private events within the local
congregation. If this is true than why are we hearing about this all over the
news? We should move on with our lives and stop speculating on private matters.
@rocklawWhen the church begins to have such a profound involvement in the
lives of non-members and the community at large, it should be held to the
standards that govern other public institutions, like due process, equal
protection and transparency. You mean like the state controlling the religion.
You do realize the church is not arresting or suing Ms. Kelly. In the church
hearing there was due process, equal protection and transparency according to
the churches procedures. Step back to separation of church and state. So many
want to apply state regulation to internal church matters. Now if the church
took property, executed or physically punished individuals, maybe the state
should step in but what civil rights did Kelly loose in excommunication.
"It's time to decide which side of the fence we will stand on. I have
chosen my side and will fight for my testimony of the restored gospel and a
living prophet every single day."Why is it always about building
fences, and walls, and dividing?Shouldn't we rather be building
GameTheory, "*Jimmy Carter, my mistake. my comment still stands to be
answered"Okay, I'll give it a shot. In the very kindest way
I can say, you're completely mistaken on both counts. In the Book of
Mormon, which was in print years before polygamy was instituted in the early
church, it says, "Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word
of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and
concubines he shall have none;"It was always doctrine that polygamy
was instituted by God only by specific command and in specific situations.
Abraham and other Old Testament prophets practiced it, and then the practice
ceased. The cessation of polygamy in the modern church is actually very
consistent when looking at the big picture of gospel dispensations. Secondly, I was taught growing up, like virtually everyone else I know, that
one day the ban would be lifted and the priesthood would be available to all
races and all men. So neither occurrence was unforeseen, nor did they
represent a change of eternal doctrine. Anyone who claims otherwise simply
doesn't know the history, the scriptures, or the doctrine.
Blue AZ Cougar,Thank you! Your Elder Maxwell quote was so apropos,
that I went and read the whole talk. And having read most of the comments
related to this topic, I found the rest of that paragraph particularly relevant
to what we see in the commentary:"Like the throng on the
ramparts of the “great and spacious building,” they are intensely
and busily preoccupied, pointing fingers of scorn at the steadfast iron-rodders
(1 Ne. 8:26–28, 33). Considering their ceaseless preoccupation, one
wonders, Is there no diversionary activity available to them, especially in such
a large building—like a bowling alley? Perhaps in their mockings and
beneath the stir are repressed doubts of their doubts." Elder
Neal A. Maxwell, 'Becometh As a Child', Ensign, May 1996
A poster above stated that they wanted to hear more about Church discipline and
excommunications of members. This poster also felt that when these are kept
secret and not transparent that it is not a good religion and one she
doesn't want to belong too.The problem is that these councils
are supposed to be private and only between the council and the individual. The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not the one that broke that
confidentiality but the individual that was ultimately disciplined. The Church
of Jesus Christ did not state at all that this individual was being disciplined
or that others are facing discipline. These are confidential and kept that way
as long as the individual maintains that confidentiality. It is no ones
business of whom is being disciplined at all. Many have stated that
she is good with God and that these men are just that men. However, they as I
believe in inspiration and guidance from the Head of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter Day Saints. The head of this Church is not just a man but the Son of
God, even the Lord Jesus Christ.
A correction to my earlier post. The last line should have read "One of the
reasons we've lasted for so many thousands of years is because we
haven't stifled debate.
@abv123:"Women have a divine purpose and destiny, co-equal with
men."Women are not co-equal with men... whatever that means.
Men and women are miles apart physically, mentally, and emotionally.If anything, women are superior to men, and in many ways.
Kate Kelly's excommunication was a greatblessing to her and her
family. She can humbly follow the counsel of her Bishop or chooseotherwise.
Hmmm. The Pope publicly excommunicates mafioso for criminal enterprise and venal
behavior. Men who have held leadership positions in the LDS Church are under
investigation for using their public offices for personal gain. A woman who
appears to be a true believer and love her LDS faith is excommunicated for
advocating change in a civil and respectful manner. What does it mean? What
happens if the two men are convicted? What of the gentleman who admitted to
inappropriate behavior with a young woman in a hot tub? Why was he given a
standing ovation? I'm just not sure I understand some things. Perhaps
it's because I'm not from here. Can anyone explain it all to me?
Why excommunication? What will happened to the rest of her family? Husband,
Children? are they excommunicated too? where is the love and mercy of Christ?
jsf writes, "When the church begins to have such a profound involvement in
the lives of non-members and the community at large, it should be held to the
standards that govern other public institutions, like due process, equal
protection and transparency."The LDS church tried to keep its
involvement in California politics secret. Propositon 8 would never have passed
in the first place if the church had not poured money into deceptive advertising
(check out the Gathering Storm video), trying to convince the voters that the
sky would fall if gay marriage was approved. If Heavenly Father is truly
speaking to the Prophet--and if he is truly listening--then more transparency
can only bring more converts.
If "our ways" become more important to us than "His ways", this
is what happens.
"The Church is always changing. Joseph Smith wouldn't recognize the
church today. They will eventually cave in on this issue as well. Just a matter
of time."That's your opinion.
I Bleed Blue,I don't think people are taking delight in this
decision, more that it's a course of action that needs to happen based on
the situation.Maybe Mrs Kelly can move on and/or work through this
situation now. It's interesting that maybe a year ago this seemed
like a patient group, but swiftly became 'all or nothing' towards the
end. Very martyr-like, somewhat hopeless. Had she met with her Bishop and
dealt with some of the issues, her cause may have lasted longer and had more
impact. Maybe she was drained and done fighting. "Kicking against the
pricks" has got to hurt after a while (D&C 121.Of such who
defy the Lord, trample upon his sacred ordinances, fight his leaders, the Lord
has this to say:Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel
against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have
not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine
eyes, and which I commanded them.Wo unto them . . . they shall be
severed from the ordinances of mine house."
She and her followers should just join the Community of Christ, the former RLDS.
This just goes to show how many people read, but rarely post, on the DN website.
I loved the touch of the Kleenex wiping away a fake tear. Really? I agree with
pretty much everyone here. I think she is vying for attention. Joseph Smith said
long ago, "“In all your trials, tribulations and sickness, in all your
sufferings, even unto death, be careful you don’t betray God, … be
careful you don’t apostatize.” he also said:"“I will give
you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle,
that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn
others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way,
while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high
road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives."
This is a good day for the order of the Church. Kelly has continuously shown
disregard for the counsel of all Church leaders and been inherently disruptive.
Her failure to even try to listen to the counsel of her Church leaders made this
result almost certain.
I find it interesting that in multiple stories I have read and interviews she
has given, she consistently refers to "The Church" as "My
congregation" or "My Church". Member's of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter day Saints normally refer to to "The Church" and say it
is the "Savior's Church". We are only participants or members
thereby understanding that we do not make the rules or demand change. The
wording she uses makes me believe that she feels like she has or should have say
over doctrine and policies. As a "member" we believe that only our
Heavenly Father and his Son Jesus Christ make doctrine. I have questioned many
things as a member of the "Church" but I have always understood that as
Christ said while praying to his Father "not my will, but thy will be done.
Some people claim that all she wanted was to have the
"Prophet" ask Heavenly Father if the changes she wanted would happen. My
thought is that the answer came either No or not now. My guess is that he
either did ask or has in the past. That is the way it works in the LDS Church.
My love and my heart goes to Kate and her family. I know this must be one of the
most difficult time as individual and as family. May Heavenly Father be with
you, comfort you always. I don't think anybody except her direct leader
should give words of hatred or punishment. Who are we to point at somebody? It
seems that calling ourselves "LDS" makes us forget that we are really
members of "The Church of Jesus Christ..." Be kind and merciful is one
of our biggest task to achieve. Kate is our sister, we shouldn't forget
In recent years the Church of Latter Day Saints have made a frequent, and often
convincing, display of claiming to be on the way to being a part of the
Christian Church. In the light of Galatians 1:28, it would seem they
have, perhaps temporarily, taken a rest from that trek. -dlj.
Typographical error in my letter, above: Galatians 3:28.
Nobody desire to have person excommunicated from church. But with this Kate will
see how bitter is Satan's plan for her. Let others learn from it.
Although she was sincere in her desires she had worked from the wrong end of
revelation. We do not decide what doctrine is and then attempt to force the
Church to change it's doctrine. The doctrine comes from above through
specific channels and she knows that, or should know, how the process works.
Perhaps that is the problem, she does not know the process.
Mr. Lloyd-Jones -- You intentionally left out the name of Jesus Christ from the
name of our Church. If I believe in Jesus Christ, pray in His name,
repent in His name, take the sacrament in His name, and try to follow his
precepts and commandments, then who are you to tell me that I am not a
Christian, or any other person who says that they believe in Christ? Do you
present yourself as one who knows the mind of God and His judgments?The scriptures are there for a guide, not a set of talking points to lay a
snare for our neighbor.
I feel sorry for her family - if she has children what lesson are they learning
from this experience? She took her law smartness to another level and thought
she could challenge the higher law (God's law) Wish you well.