if you cant beat them, join them oh wait...
Regarding Bowl Tie-ins, a big question (and I am unwilling to spend the time to
research it) is did the Big 12 have more bowl tie-ins than bowl-eligible
teams?Assuming the answer is yes, then BYU could secure one more
bowl game for the good of the order. If BYU shared in the bowl tie-ins, one
would assume they would also share in the bowl dividends. That MAY not net the
conference any more money than holding pat.For BYU as well, a share
of all bowl dividends may not equal all bowl revenues from even a lower bowl.
Again, I am only hypothesising. Someone who really cares could look it up in a
few minutes I'm sure.As for the season, I would think that BYU
can bring more money and more exposure to the conference, and a scheduling
agreement is like a pre-nup: if either party doesn't like it, don't
Still not sure why BYU doesn't have a game series with Army. That
can't be so hard to pull off.
cont.So should BYU spend some of it's ESPN revenue to gain a
slightly better schedule and an all-important foot in the P-5 door? Seems like
a good deal if you can get it, with or without bowl tie in.
"The Cougars wouldn't need to rely on such an agreement to create solid
schedules. Just look at the 2015 schedule with games against Nebraska, Michigan
and UCLA"Playing Nebraska, UM, and UCLA is nice but it's
only thee games, all of which are on the road. The rest of the 2015 schedule
isn't that impressive, not to mention BYU has 5 home games scheduled and 7
on the road. A scheduling agreement would be huge for BYU because it would help
stabilize the schedule and it would help bring quality teams into LES on a
regular basis. Not to mention, it would be the first step to becoming a full
member of a P5 conference.
Johnny Moser"Still not sure why BYU doesn't have a game
series with Army. That can't be so hard to pull off."Actually, that would be much harder to pull off than you might imagine.The service academies are loaded with "traditions" that leave
little room for adding new opponents.
Liked the article about scheduling games with the Big 12, it would benefit both
parties. What disturbs me is the Utah source basically saying that Boyd K Packer
was one of the reasons BYU didn't want the Big 12, or athletics on church
owned properties. Hope the source was wrong.
Article quote: "So, does it make sense for both BYU and the Big 12 to come
to some sort of scheduling agreement? Tramel lists two main reasons in his
latest article why such an agreement would be good for both parties. In brief,
Tramel believes a scheduling agreement would allow the Big 12 schools to get to
know BYU better and vice versa. Tramel even compared this to "dating and
marriage" in his interview with BYU Sports Nation. Second, Tramel states it
would give the Big 12 better games."Did you catch that?"Better" games.Ha! Ha! 99% of Utah fans would try to have
outsiders believe that BYU couldn't beat half the junior high teams in the
valley.Oh, well....let 'em believe what they want.Go Cougars!
@ Johnny Moser - Thayne, WY - "Still not sure why BYU doesn't have a
game series with Army. That can't be so hard to pull off."In my opinion, I don't think playing Army on a regular basis does
anything for BYU. In case you haven't noticed, Army isn't such a hot
team. Playing them does nothing but give an almost guaranteed win for BYU and
Holmoe is trying to get us on to the big stage permanently. Army doesn't
do that. Navy is one step above the Army, it seems, but even that isn't
quite the directio we want to go.
More media attention anyone? Say it isn't so.What has Bronco
started now? Obviously, he's part of a BYU media mastermind group. After
all, BYU does have an international TV presence. Does that count as national as
well?Seems like the frequency of these articles is gaining a little
more momentum each passing week. Another sad day for the 'local kids'
on the public access channel at East High.Better schedule, better
games, conference tie, or even a conference membership coming soon.I
love my little church school insignificant independent conference membership!
I love this idea. There is no downside that I can see, for B12 or BYU.BYU brings 4 or 5 ESPN games to teams seldom on TV. BYU brings a great venue
to B12 visitors. And BYU bring a stronger SOS (usually) to the games. Sure they
can beat you, but this seems like a no-brainer for B12. Literally, how much more
$$$ would BYU vs Oklahoma State bring vs OSU versus North Texas?For
BYU, it opens up a whole new region in which to recruit. For B12, it would be
worth a million or or, I'd guess.Lets do this.
Y Grad / Y DadI believe it all comes down to how many Big 12 teams
reach 6 wins. Most years they fill the slots, but some years they don't. It
seems like every year there is at least one conference that can't fill
there spots. The down side is that the bowls they can't fill are the low
tier ones. Hope all is well guy!
LOL.Of course it does.But who cares what makes sense for
byu?Its what makes sense for the Big 12 that matters.And
why would the Big 12 would to have a large agreement with a mid-major?The Big 12 can go get any mid major they want, whenever they want
Yes, BYU can be the travel partner to West Virginia...invite coming soon. You
do realize that this is a pipe dream of sports writer and not any university
president nor even athletic director...right?
This article epitomizes the "world revolves around BYU" attitude of BYU
fans and their media lapdogs."Does a scheduling agreement with
the Big 12 make sense for BYU?" Of course it does. The real question that
a real news outlet needs to ask is, does a scheduling agreement with BYU make
sense for the Big 12? The answer is a resounding no. The Big 12 can schedule
any mid-major any time they want.If the Big 12 wanted BYU, they
would have invited BYU to join a few years ago when they had a million chances.
The simple fact that "BYU possibly joining the Big12" continues to be a
hot topic around the national sports world says a lot about how relevant and
significant BYU actually is in the overall scheme of things... much to the
chagrin of some the local anti-BYU rivals. If BYU was just a
mid-major, as some of those local anti-BYU people like to extol in their
tirades, this topic wouldn't continue being such a hot topic. But it
does."Big 12 Call Yet" asks the question "And why would
the Big 12 want to have a large agreement with a mid-major?Obvious
answer: They wouldn't. If BYU wasn't considered a major player and
upper-tier program in most of the sports world, this article and this discussion
wouldn't even be taking place. But they are and so it is. Even
if this conference marriage doesn't end up taking place, the national
attention it's already garnered from just the possibility of it happening
is worth a lot to BYU. It has solidified and verified the significance of BYU on
the national scene.
More blue cool-aid from a BYU fan/writer. The Big 12 doesn't need a
scheduling agreement with BYU it really has very little up side for them. Why
would say a school like OSU, ISU, Kansas, TTU, TCU, and West Virginia want to
give a Big 12 bowl slot to a BYU team that only has to win two or three Big 12
games and six or seven second tier mid major games to be eligible? Why should
the Big 12 want to have a scheduling agreement with a team that is begging to
play them anyway? Why would the Big 12 want to share any of their TV
revenue/exposure with BYU? If independence is so great why would BYU want a
scheduling agreement? Could it be that ESPN has let BYU know that they will not
renew a BYU contract without some hope of having a quality opponent rather than
most of BYU's pathetic schedule? In the new era of college football
strength of schedule counts. It also counts for TV viewers and ESPN knows it. I
guess BYU vs. nobody U football is better than a rerun of poker or pool as
Joining the Big 12 would serve one function. It would show Aa and ASU that
they screwed up way back when the jumped to the PAC 10. They could have waited
and had a V8. Big 14, nah, they have to settle for the PAC 10+2:0
A scheduling agreement with the PAC12 makes sense, more than one with the Big12.
BYU should be repairing its relationship with the West.The biggest
fantasy in the article:"ideal scheduling agreement would include
access to the Big 12's bowl tie-ins." Thought to be deserved because
Notre Dame has that with the ACC, and - as we all know - BYU is the Notre Dame
of the West. Please!I hope BYU wouldn't demand bowl access as
part of their well-known "difficult to deal with" style. If the Big12
doesn't want to expand and include BYU because that would mean less revenue
per team, WHY would they want to share bowl revenue with BYU? Ute
fans would LOVE to see "5 Big12 + 3 PAC12 + Boise". Right now, BYU fans
are like a Jazz fan in the cheap seats yelling about a missed free throw.
"Its easy! That's why their called free!"Its different when
you're in "the game". BYU would struggle, just like UU and TCU did
when they were called up to the majors.
The P5 are only interested in scheduling agreements with each other. Go Utes.
Another question...Why are so many Ute fans so concerned about what
happens to BYU's sports programs? It's obviously a big deal from
all the attention and comments they continue to give week after week and article
after article.If Ute fans were smart and thought this through
better, it would be more obvious that the more relevant BYU is made to be on the
national scene, the more significant their wins (past and future) over BYU would
be. But by continually trying to downplay BYU, they are also
downplaying the significance their wins over BYU have. Obviously not a smart way
to go. Why would anyone hurt themselves just to try to hurt someone
else? And yet that is what many Ute fans continue doing on these weekly posts.
Apparently, they would rather allow themselves (or their wins) to be
marginalized in the process of downplaying their rival... than having both look
programs look better... if it means that rival will somehow benefit. Makes no sense.Pride is causing those people to shoot themselves
in the foot.
wookie, typical Ute "fan" who thinks that Mormons who wear blue have a
responsibility to represent their church but Mormon ute "fans" who wear
red don't. I've never heard such sentiment expressed by
any church leader, but I'm sure they're wrong and you're right.
I've always been taught that church members represent the church at all
times and all places, without a qualifier of "unless you wear red" or
"unless you are a ute 'fan'"The self righteousness
on the hill these days is unbelievable. I love that byu bothers so many ute
"fans" Their obsession with byu brings me great joy!
Wookie: Football doesn't play on Sunday. That was an issue with the other
sports but seeing as you missed this being a football only article, I will spell
it out for you. Football doesn't play on Sunday and would not present
issues to either side on that matter. Also, maybe I missed something, but BYU
doesn't need a medical school to be considered for the B12. Not sure where
you are getting your information? Must be interesting to see the world in red
where you make up information and think it is accurate.
Why on earth would the BIG12 or PAC12 sign on to any schedule agreement??? Both
conferences know they can schedule bYu anytime thy like...if they so chose. Byu
will move, drop or kill most games on thier schedule to make it happen. and
agree to a 2 for 1 or wors....whatever it takes. Again I ask, what
is the value to committ to something that will always be there?Makes
"So, does it make sense for both BYU and the Big 12 to come to some sort of
scheduling agreement?...So, how would this help BYU? While not perfect, BYU is
doing a good job scheduling as an independent. The Cougars wouldn't need to
rely on such an agreement to create solid schedules."I have to
laugh at the tone of this article. It's as if Peavler is trying to
convince cougar fans that this would be the way to go, when the truth is, it
isn't the cougar fans that need convincing. It's the Big 12. The
choice isn't the Y's to make. It's the Big 12's. And if,
as Trammel said, the Big 12's OOC schedules lack sufficient
"interesting games", I don't see how the Y would improve their
situation. There's only 2 reasons why the Big 12 lacks "interesting
games": (1) the teams scheduling them don't WANT an interesting game
-- preferring instead a cupcake opponent, or (2) the teams CAN'T schedule
one. And if the problem is #2, then aligning an entire conference with a
"midmajor"....would be an enormous dent in that league's
Brio,Is playing and beating byu significant for the Utes? Well, we took
you off our schedule.Is playing Utah important to the cougars? How
long have you and your friends been telling us that beating a bunch of patsies
and playing in a meaningless bowl is more important than losing to the Utes.
Sports Are Great:So you are saying you thrive on contention? Also,
you are assuming that those who wear red are also of the faith that BYU
represents? This is my beef with a small group of BYU fans/players. This small
group of BYU fans/players like to present to the world that their sports are a
missonary tool, yet in their own backyard they act afool and assume that the U,
its fans and players are LDS. A select few are contentious, judgmental, ignorant
and assuming. They should not worry about the U and should act as they have
been directed which is to represent their faith at all times without
assumptions. I am by no means excusing those U fans who hide under the cloak of
their school color and are also members of the LDS faith, as they know better,
but the U is a secular school and to the world they represent the state of Utah.
As for BYU, they are a religious school and represent a faith.Go
I also have to laugh that Trammel would take the word of David C. Moore, as
though he had his finger on the pulse of cougar athletics. He'd been
trying to pass off that bogus fairy tale about Boyd K. Packer for at least 4-yrs
now, and even some COUGAR fans don't buy it. David C. Moore had been
challenged multiple times to back up his claim, and every time he'd failed.
And if there were even an OUNCE of validity to his made up version of events,
why hadn't any journalists investigated it? I mean it's been at least
4-yrs now, and STILL nothing to substantiate that tale.Must be
because it isn't true.And Trammel bought it? How
BYU is a major program that brings relevancy to the table, not a mid major
program that happens to play in a major conference such as Utah. A scheduling
agreement makes sense to the B-12 if the SOS improves enough to keep them ahead
of one of the other conferences for a slot in the playoffs. Most years BYU
falls in the 30s or low 40s. That sure beats playing against most of the small
school programs at the bottom of the P5. Its equal to or better than most
middle of the pack teams.I WANT to see the Cougars play Army too.
We have never played Army and I still believe they are looking for a game in
2016 at a major league ballpark. Still looking forward to the next game against
ND being announced.
They could easily win most of the big 10 games. Then they would get invited with
Espn contracts and HD trucks the Big 12 teams would make way more money but
loose another game every year.
@hedgie"Again I ask, what is the value to committ to something
that will always be there?Makes no sense"I DARE you
to say that exact thing to your girlfriend/boyfirend/hubby/wife or significant
other. Commitment would be beneficial to the whole scheduling thing
for both the B12 and to BYU in a similar way that the PAC12 has need of BYU due
to Stanford/USC's agreements to play ND in November. Bonuses happen in the
SOS department, attendance goes up and so does exposure. That doesn't
happen when teams play small schools like North Texas or Utah.The
downside is that BYU has done well against B12 teams lately. They are 5-1
against Texas and Oklahoma lifetime. That number hopefully improves to 6-1 this
Gotta luv how our little friends from the north are panic stricken every time
another article on BYU to the Big 12 comes out.Eventually, the Big
12 will decide that it's time to expand or add more strength to the OOC
SOS; when that happens, BYU will be one of the top candidates on their list.Meanwhile Utah fans, slap another PAC 12 sticker on something if it
helps you feel better about the prospects of suffering your third straight
losing, bowl less season.
BYU would definitely benefit from this type of agreement with the Big 12.
Whether the Big 12 would benefit is at least debatable.
wookie - I've made no assumption that anyone wearing red is a Mormon.
I've only commented that Mormon ute "fans" represent the church.
Again, I've yet to hear a church leader say church members represent the
church unless they put on their red shirt. I'm ashamed of Mormon ute
"fans" who think they don't represent our church. They do. My
beef with ute "fans" especially Mormon utes is they think the color of
their shirt shields them from responsibility to do what is right. Right is
right and wrong is wrong. Wrong doesn't suddenly become right when a
person wearing a red shirt does it. Even for a non-religious person. It is
funny though that the values that byu fans should uphold at the end of the day
are pretty simple - kindness, honesty, charity, all that good stuff. And to
think that ute "fans" are arguing they should be immune from such being
held to such a standard because of color of their shirt.
The comments on this thread are interesting. Excitement over the immanent
agreement with the Big12 builds as more comments are posted. LOL!Naval VetPhiladelphia, PA"I have to laugh at the tone of
this article. It's as if Peavler is trying to convince cougar fans that
this would be the way to go, when the truth is, it isn't the cougar fans
that need convincing. It's the Big 12. The choice isn't the Y's
to make. It's the Big 12's."byu fans always do this.
For 30 years they talked like their invite to the Pac-12 was immanent. It has certainly become clear over the last 2-3 weeks that byu fans do
not care about independence. They want what their neighbors to the North have.
To your point, Naval Vet, Utah's invite to the Pac-12 was accompanied with
stories (some rumored) as private meetings were held and events unfolded.
byu's way is the complete opposite...create the story then (they hope) the
invite will come. However, these comments are starting to read like the invite
is in the bag...typical. LOL!Watching byu and its fans beg is
wildly entertaining!Go cougs!
@ ekute:You seem to have forgotten that Utah soon added BYU back on
it's schedule when it realized it was a mistake to have dropped them in the
first place. They certainly wouldn't have added them back on if playing
them was insignificant. Obviously, it's not.You claim that...
"You (me) and your (my) friends been telling us (Ute fans) that
beating a bunch of patsies and playing in a meaningless bowl is more important
than losing to the Utes." When did I say such a thing? Please
provide even a shred of evidence. You can't. Because I know for an absolute
fact I've never said anything close to your statement nor have any of my
friends... as if you even know who any of them actually are. You don't.You are obviously once again making things up just to stir the pot or to
try to make your irrelevant stance appear to be relevant. Sorry to break the
news to you, but it hasn't been for a very long time... ever since you quit
using facts in your comments. Next time, stick to using facts or
risk losing even more credibility.
@ S S JarvisHave you ever considered the fact that some teams of the
P5 are at the bottom of their conference because they are playing the good teams
in their conference week after week? They are not padding their schedule with
six or seven gimme games each season like BYU. You want to brag about BYU record
against Texas and Oklahoma without mentioning their overall record against P5
Rose Bowl call yet?Salt Lake City, UT"Gotta luv how our
little friends from the north are panic stricken every time another article on
BYU to the Big 12 comes out."Panic stricken? It is so much fun
watching you people go around and around. You don't like independence, you
feel entitled to be in a conference you haven't earned. Mendenahall is
begging, byu fans are begging, Holmoe is no where to be found. As I
said above...wildly entertaining but you can call it what you want.btw...I see that Trammel received his 15 minutes of fame with a byu student
run radio show. Mission accomplished. LOL!
Give it a rest DNews...
@Wookie and Sports are Great:I'm a lifelong Ute and lifelong
LDS member, proud of both. And I agree with @Sports are Great. Wookie,
regardless of whether you belong to the LDS church or not, it doesn't
change my stance. If you are LDS, you'll know we should take seriously our
obligations and promises we've made. An external affiliation to a
particular sports team impacts those promises and responsibilities NONE.
I'm embarrassed when other LDS members think their duty to do what is right
is diminished when they are cheering for our team and expect the boys in Provo
to do what they don't expect it of themselves or others great Ute
supporters. Duckhunter is harsh, but I agree with him. Lets not be
hypocrites. We can and should act just as we expect the Provo boys to act.
ute "fans" are definitely suffering over this. The fact is utah has only
one thing they can try to hold over BYU and that is that they are in the PAC12.
utah "fans" cling to that one shread of relevence and lash out at any
suggestion that BYU may be attractive to a conference.Personally I
like independence and would prefer BYU stayed independent if they could somehow
work out some improved access to the bigger bowls and the playoffs. If they
could get some sort of scheduling agreement that would help them to do that then
that would be my wish, increased access but maintain independence. BYU does not need schools far greater than itslef to prop it up and give it
relevence, it has those things all on its own. But it has become apparent that
it does need a way to improve some of its scheduling and its post season tie ins
and perhaps something like this can do it for them while maintaining a course
all its own. But the absolute fear that puts into utah
"fans" is hilarious to behold. lol
@wookieI'll add that if you've ever lived outside the Utah
bubble, you'll know that people equate Utah with the LDS church. So like
it or not, what University of Utah fans do and say very much will be linked
directly or indirectly in others minds to Mormons.For me, its sad
you bring this argument up day after day(yes we've all noticed you are
obsessed with it). This goes way past any religion though. I want our
university to be the classiest in the country. I want us to be known as having
the best fans. I want us to be the best football team. I want to be respected
and to respect others. We wont get there by cowering away from responsibility
and deflecting elsewhere. All people everywhere, religious or not, sports fans
or not, Utahs or not, should be great people. Being a good person is hardly
solely a religious concept. Lets not be hypocrites. Playing the religion card
to demand of others what we don't demand of ourselves(and other Utah fans)
is pathetic. We're better than that.Go Utes!
Now the reasons why utah "fans" fear this is a whole nother subject. For
one the only thing utah has to offer recruits that is even a remote advantage
over BYU is its membership in the pac12, especially LDS athletes. Without that
claim there is barely a quality LDS athlete that would even consider utah over
BYU and if BYU were to get an alignment or a membership with an equivalent
conference then utah would have nothing to offer thos athletes. utah
has already proven it cannot compete with the top schools in the pac12, or in
any "power" conference for that matter, for top recruits, the only thing
it can possibly hope to have an advantage for is LDS recruits and even then they
have to fight, and generally lose, to BYU for these kids. If BYU gains this sort
of alliance then that small scrap utah has to offer disappears completely and
that frightens utah "fans" to the point of suicidal tendencies. That is
why they become so "frantic and emotional" when the subject is brought
up, especially when it is brought up nationally. This possibility is
a nightmare for utah "fans".
@ BrioConf. wins matter. Wins over BYU really do not in the whole
scheme of things.
@ Steven S Jarvis"BYU is a major program that brings relevancy
to the table, not a mid major program that happens to play in a major conference
such as Utah."Comments like this are just sad, and they reek of
jealousy. 4 in a row. 9 of 12. I will never understand claiming superiority
to a team that you haven't even held a lead on since 2011.
@ Duckhunter"ute "fans" are definitely suffering over
this. The fact is utah has only one thing they can try to hold over BYU and that
is that they are in the PAC12."Is that really the only thing?
Allow me to remind you: 4 in a row. 9 of the last 12. As for
recruiting. It's a minor concern. The two schools don't go head to
head over "that" many athletes.
"Gotta luv how our little friends from the north are panic stricken every
time another article on BYU to the Big 12 comes out."I have to
laugh whenever some panic stricken Y fan tries to project their fear of being
left out of the field of relevancy onto Ute fans. I mean seriously....what do
WE have to panic about? WE'RE already IN a Power 5 league. YOU guys are
the ones whose own head coach was practically on his KNEES....BEGGING the Big 12
to look their way. And then, a couple of days later, the Big 12 came out and
said they weren't interested in expanding. And the only reason why they
said that was because they wanted to make it clear -- to the Y specifically --
that after all these years, they still weren't wanted. And that explains
YOUR panic; not OURs. We're good, all comfortably nestled into the Power
5's top revenue conference.
@2ferYes that is the only thing, name one other thing utah has to
offer that is anyway better than what BYU offers? Location? Nope. Quality
education? No. LDS affiliation? Uh uh. Better legacy? Not a chance. Better
facilities? Sorry, no. Bigger fanbase? Please. Better exposure on tv? Laughable.
Look I'm not saying some kids might not prefer utah over BYU
but the pac12 thing is really the big draw. Previous to that utah almost never
out recruited BYU for instate or LDS recruits, it simply never happened other
than on rare occasions. If that one advantage disappears it will return to BYU
dominating for those recruits instead of the semi closeness there is now.
Lifelong, Duck, and Sports are Great:You fail to cognitively
recognize what I am conveying. It is simple and I will try to simplify it even
further. First, I have never excused Utah fans behavior, let alone Utah fans
who are LDS. This has never been my platform, so Duck you need to get off of
your hypocrisy statements. Second, I have, and I will stand my position as I
have lived outside of Utah most of my life, BYU is the school that people
outside of the state of Utah see as representative of the LDS faith and NOT the
University of Utah. Third, I have constantly emphasized that where much is
given much is required, and those BYU students, which I was at one time, who are
blessed to attend this prestigious university need to and have an obligation to
represent their faith (see #1 before you comment about Utah fans). Finally, and
I agree, all people of all backgrounds have an obligation to act and behave in a
civil and peaceful manner, I have never said that they don't, so again, any
hypocrisy argument lacks merit or reason.
Duckhunter:Utah had been outrecruiting the Y since 2008.
That's BEFORE we joined the very elite conference you all had been
pretending to have been in secret negotiations with since at least the 1980s.
So as far as recruits go, even IF the Y succeeds in their pipedream of
affiliation with, or all out membership in, the Big 12, Utah would still most
likely outrecruit them. But good luck "pretending" you'd finally
overtake us. That "make believe" world is really all you've got.
Afterall, the Big 12 had "Fully Rejected" you so many times, some of us
are starting to lose count. Let's see now...you were "Fully
Rejected" in 1995, and again in 2010, 2011, and 2014. So that's 4.
Does anybody remember if the the cougars were also "Fully Rejected" in
2012 and/or 2013, or was it just those 4 times?
Duck,You seem to think the LDS kids are the key to our future -
they're not. In fact, we're moving more and more away from having LDS
kids make up the bulk of our program. There will always be a
handful we want, but more and more we're going after kids in Texas,
California, and other hot beds. You can keep the majority of the LDS kids,
we're not that interested. A team full of Utah boys isn't going to
lead us to Pac 12 titles. And that's why they are becoming fewer and fewer
on our team.
Duckhunter,Utah's winning record vs byu football didn't start
when Utah joined the PAC 12.
"My dad can beat up your dad." "Well my brother can beat up your
dad." "My uncle could beat up your brother"......sound familiar
"You're my little brother" "Well I'm bigger than you"
"That's just because your hair stands off your head taller"
"Well I get better grades than you" blah blah blah.
@ DuckhunterLocation? SLC > Provo, and it's not close.
Quality Education? Debatable. I've seen rankings that have Utah for above
BYU. Facilities? Utah blows BYU away. I recently was given the opportunity to
work out of BYU's training room, and it was laughable how far behind
Utah's it was. On that same note, athletes at the U have unrestricted
access to the best orthopedic doctors in the state through the UOC. Also, there
is a great LDS culture on Utah's campus and the institute is extremely
popular. I agree with your point that the PAC-12 is a huge draw for
recruits, but it's silly to pretend that Utah doesn't have any merit
on it's own.
I am the WVU fan that propsed the scheduling alliance to Berry Tramel. I do not
believe an outright option to be part of the B12's bowl lineup will ever be
in the cards. That said, in a case where - such as last season - the B12 may not
have enough bowl eligible teams to fulfill its commitments, I think BYU could be
a candidate to be an alternate to fill a bowl for the B12 assuming the
aforementioned were the case. A sample 4 year B12 schedule for BYU would
be...Year 1: @ Texas, Oklahoma State, @ WVU, Kansas, @ BaylorYear 2:
Oklahoma, @ TCU, Texas Tech, @ Kansas State, TCUYear 3: Texas, @ Oklahoma
State, WVU, @ Kansas, BaylorYear 4: @ Oklahoma, TCU, @ Texas Tech, Kansas
State, @ TCUNever the same B12 team 2 years in a row, which keeps
the games fresh and interesting. Just football, no additional partnerships or
memberships like Notre Dame in the ACC. I think that plan is one that the B12
could come around for.
I grew up in Utah, spent a few years away, working, in Georgia and another in
Denver (2000-2001). Of everyone I met in both places only the Florida State
alumni I worked with in Georgia even brought up BYU. And that was because BYU
was on the schedule that year. Everyone else I met first asked if 1) I was
Mormon and 2) if I skiid. That's it. I'm sure the questions might be
slightly different 14 years later but questions about BYU Football would be
sparse still. For that matter, internationally I've mostly been asked
about skiing and Moab. BYU isn't on the radar like people think.Having said that, in the football world BYU brings credibility even if the
past decade hasn't been all that great. The BIG12 might be onto something
to boost their lower tier schools' SOS by having them schedule BYU more
often, thus pushing the better schools SOS up in the conference when they beat
these lower schools. Doesn't sound like a dumb idea, and I'm sure
ESPN can have influence there as well.
wookie,No, you've been quite clear. You can tell the Provo
boys how to act but no one can tell you how to act. That is hypocrisy.
Don't get me wrong, I'm embarrassed when byu fans throw trash and act
as they shouldn't. But it would be hypocritical of me to expect byu fans
to act differently than I expect myself and other ute fans to act. As for your whole "much is given much is required" you must think that
attending byu is the pinnacle of "being given" Have you not
been given much? I've been given much as a member of the LDS
church. I've been given much as a former student of the University of
Utah. I've been given much due to my degree I earned at the U.
Doesn't this mean much is expected of me? Sure does. Lets not be
hypocrites and focus on others. Really, why don't you just include all
fans in your admonishments? Its not as if you're precluded from calling
out all bad fans and you had to pick one fan base. Lets be better than that.
wookie "What I take issue with is the fact that some BYU
fans/players do not realize that their words and deeds do in fact represent a
faith "Your do too pal. Members of the LDS church represent the
LDS church. This is not complicated. If you are an LDS person you represent
the LDS church. Frankly its embarrassing you're singling out byu fans or
students (of whom not all are even LDS) as representing the LDS church without
recognizing that LDS church members(utes included) represent the LDS church.
Lets not be hypocrites.
I like the idea! Do it!
WookieOkay, I'll bite. Let us assume that indeed, BYU and
it's athletes have a higher obligation to represent the church well, and
shortcomings are grounds for discontinuing the athletic program.This, my friend, is a slippery slope, and you are close to an extreme end of
it. You could pursue it further, and say that any public bad behavior is
grounds for dismantling the university itself. Since BYU and it's
students, mormon or not, cannot hope to be perfect, do away with it.You might actually like that.I propose that the good that is done
by BYU athletics far outweighs the bad, and that is why it still continues, your
complaints not withstanding. If you don't see it that way, the evidence
would suggest that you don't see it the way the brethren do.Now
when the discussion was held that we not "check our religion at the
door," I propose that it DOES fall squarely on all BYU fans and athletes,
but, as has been stated, mormon fans and athletes from anywhere else are not
To Wookie - Count me as another Ute who's on Sports, Lifelong, and Duck(and
that's saying something)position. "What I take issue with
is the fact that some BYU fans/players do not realize that their words and deeds
do in fact represent a faith"Yours do too, as do the words and
deeds of every other Mormon Utah fan/player. Like me. "and
the principles it espouses and will act afool"Don't we as
Utah fans have great principles we espouse? Would we not claim our university
espouses great principles? So why are you making this a Utah vs BYU issue. Its
not. "From the moment I challenged him on his contentious
behavior he has always pointed the finger back at Utah fans and their
behavior"As you continue to point the finger at him and byu
fans(that's hypocritical) "I have never defended or excused
poor behavior of anyone, nor have I argued that we should not all act
civil."Right, and the BYU fans are defending their poor
behavior. Duck is focusing on Utah fans and you're focusing on byu
fans.You two are good for each other.
@ Solomon LeviIn the case of one of my alma maters (Army), this year
they have only two historical rivalry games, Air Force and Navy. The others
(Buffalo, Stanford, Wake Forest, Yale, Ball St., Rice, Kent St., Connecticut, W.
Kentucky, and Fordham) are all run of the mill. However, Army scheduling BYU
makes about as much sense as scheduling Stanford -- not much of a game unless
their program takes a big step forward. Then again, optimism is what drives
many of us!
@Sports Are Great said, "funny that the values byu fans should uphold are
pretty simple - kindness, honesty, charity.... to think that ute "fans"
are arguing they should be immune from being held to such a standard because of
color of their shirt"Ute fans are not trying to avoid behavior
accountability. All Mormons (red or blue) have a responsibility to walk the
talk. What you are missing is that the general population associates BYU with
the LDS church. I have lived outside of Utah most of my life. When I tell
people I graduated from the U rarely do they ask if I am Mormon. When I tell
them my kids attend BYU they always ask if I'm Mormon. Like it or not, BYU
has a stronger link to the LDS church than Utah does. If a Utah fan behaves
badly, shame on them. There is a 50 percent chance they are LDS and the church
takes a minor hit. If a BYU fan behaves badly, shame on them. There is a 99.9
percent chance they are LDS and the church takes a much bigger hit to it's
image, missionary efforts etc.
@Lifelong Ute:Hey man, knock it off. I'm finding myself having
respect for a Utah Fan! Seriously, Good stuff. I'd love to
see more of it from both sides.
@Duckhunter "BYU does not need schools far greater than itslef to prop it
up and give it relevence"Going 0-4 against a P5 cellar dweller
means you need some propping up. If the Y was so relevant then why are they
still on the outside looking in in football and in the WCC in all other sports?
xamUnlike the Utes, BYU doesn't need a conference to be
I know that there are anti-Utah trolls out there, but seriously... are there
fans from any other team so delusional that they would claim something like
"BYU and their fans dream of the P5, but will most likely be playing Big Sky
teams or the likes for the majority of their games"? The irony of that
statement is that since they entered the PAC12 in 2011 Utah has an annual game
(their first of each season) against a Big Sky opponent. They narrowly escaped
Weber State last year (it was something like 85-0). I'm so glad that
I'm a cougarfan and don't have to spend my time agitating fans from
any other school. Go Cougs!
"In brief, Tramel believes a scheduling agreement would allow the Big 12
schools to get to know BYU better and vice versa."So true, just
like PAC-12 got to know BYU when our officials were pelted with garbage by BYU
fans after yet ANOTHER loss to THE University of Utah.Good thing
Texas lost last year at LES.
No playoff for U"Unlike the Utes, BYU doesn't need a
conference to be relevant"There is only one team in college
football that is relevant as an Independent. That would be Notre Dame! Notre Dame is considered a power 5 opponent, has a scheduling agreement with
the ACC, and has a bowl agreement with one of the New Year's six bowls
(Orange Bowl). BYU does not!BYU is NOT Notre Dame! Never will be!
@ No playoff for U said, "Unlike the Utes, BYU doesn't need a
conference to be relevant"So you're telling us that playing
a schedule that includes Savannah State, Middle Tennessee, Cal, Nevada, UConn,
Virginia and UNLV is relevance? Notre Dame doesn't play a schedule like
that. I suppose you're also telling us that inclusion in the WCC in all
other sports is further proof of BYU's relevance, right? Notre
Dame is the only school that has made Independence work and even they are
inching closer to becoming a full fledged member of the ACC.
Elmer Fudd"There is only one team in college football that is
relevant as an Independent."Depends on what your definition of
relevant is.If it's being a former national championship and
Heisman Trophy winner, then BYU is relevant. Utah is not.If
it's being a perennial Top 25 team, then BYU is relevant. Utah is not.If it's simply having the "potential" of being invited to
the playoffs, then BYU is just as relevant as Utah.Simply being in
the PAC doesn't make Utah USC! And never will!
re: Two For FlinchingI believe that the So Miss game in 2015 will be
rescheduled until 2017 (or later). It appears that So Miss rescheduled the 2014
game to 2016, as the date for that game is now a bye. Let's be patient. I
would bet that BYU will end up with 6 home and 6 away games. And the date that
is now scheduled for the So Miss game could even be one of the good top p-5
teams. I would think that Holmoe would not schedule 7 away games and only 5 home
games. BYU doesn't need the $'s, but the fans do need the 6 games for
DuckhunterHighland, UT@2ferYes that is the only
thing, name one other thing utah has to offer that is anyway better than what
BYU offers? Location? Nope. Quality education? No. LDS affiliation? Uh uh.
Better legacy? Not a chance. Better facilities? Sorry, no. Bigger fanbase?
Please. Better exposure on tv? Laughable-------------Let's ignore the fact that Utah puts MORE players into the NFL compared
to BYU.Location? If the Jazz can't get top talent into Salt
Lake, can't imagine Provo being a better destination.Quality of
Education? U.S. News & World Report ranks SEVENTEEN programs at the THE
University of Utah in the top 50. All I could find from BYU's own website
was:#3 Accounting -Wall Street Journal#4 Entrepreneurship
-Entrepreneur#5 Public Relations Program -PR Week Magazine#11/#34
Undergraduate business programs -Bloomberg/USNWR #16/#33 MBA
-Forbes/USNWR#42 Law School -USNWR#59 Mechanical engineering
Education? Please... what is the average ACT Score for an incoming Freahman to
BYU and what is it for Utah? 28 to 23. Average GPA in High School. 3.8 to
3.4. I have never heard of anyone that got admitted to BYU but didn't get
admitted to Utah as an incoming Freahman. How many that got rejection letters
from BYU are at the U? Thousands every year. Utah is the fall back position for
most kids that don't get into BYU. Maybe thats why there is so much venom
from up North. Rejection is ugly but BYU has higher standards for students than
Utah does. The academic requirements for the athletes at BYU can hamper
recruiting efforts but, just like the honor code, it separates the players with
the character and maturity required to succeed at BYU.
@ No playoff for U"If it's being a former national
championship and Heisman Trophy winner"That is literally
nobody's definition of relevance. If it was Yale, Army, and Princeton
would all be considered power-house programs.@ panamadesnewsI agree with you that BYU will do what it takes to play 6 games at home.
I was just saying that a scheduling agreement, however unrealistic, would be a
great thing for BYU.
@uteology and 2ferWell considering that almost no one is turned down
on an application to utah, that utah has a smaller enrollment, that utah has
less graduates, that utah take 1000's of students that were rejected by BYU
but BYU doesn't take any that were rejected by utah, that BYU has more
applicants than it can ever take, that utah has a falling enrollment and
isn't even the largest public university in the state, and really I could
go on and on but that is probably enough to prove the following point.More people want to attend BYU even though its entrance requirements are much
more stringent. That means more want to go to Provo than salt lake, more want a
BYU degree than a utah degree, in otherwords more would prefer to live in Provo
than slc and more would prefer to have a BYU education than a utah education.That really say's it all.LOL!
@xamWell let's see....BYU football played in a bowl game this
last season, and the season before, utah's did not...either season. BYU has
bowl contracts all on its own, utah does not, in fact utah doesn't even go
to bowl games. BYU's mens and womens basketball both played in the NCAA
tourney this last year coming from the WCC, neither utah's teams played in
it. In fact the BYU women's team went to the sweet 16. BYU's
men's and womens volleyball both played in the NCAA tournemnt this last
year, in fact BYU's mens team spent the entire season ranked in the top 5,
some of it ranked #1, and played in the final 4. utah's volleyball went
nowhere. And we could go on and on with just about every other sport.Actually playing in the post season is the first requirement for
"relevence" and then doing something in the post season is the second.
Since BYU's teams all played in the post season, and several actually won
games in the post season, yet other than gymnastics none of utah's played
in any post season anything...you get the picture.
@No playoff for U "If it's being a former national championship and
Heisman Trophy winner, then BYU is relevant. Utah is not"NC
happened 30 years ago and the Heisman happened 24 years ago. Maybe relevance
has more to do with 2 BCS bowl wins and a trip to the College basketball
National Championship game all within the last 16 years.
Duckhunter,You should take all of that and present it to the P5. Oh
wait...holmoe and mendenhall already did that. lol.
To Y Grad / Y Dad:I first proposed a Bowl Agreement to Barry Trammel
about two weeks ago now and in much the same fashion as he has been discussing
it. I found it interesting that he came out with three articles on the subject
and spoken on at least two radio programs regarding it after that. I don't
really care if he wishes to credit others. I do know the idea is a god one.
I specifically proposed that one, two or three of the P-5
Conferences would be wise to establish a scheduling agreement with BYU. The
payback is simple. After the usual $1 million cost to attend payment, BYU
proportionally splits major bowl revenue with those P-5 Conferences 50-50 just
like USC, Texas or Michigan would have to with their respective leagues. So if
BYU has six regular season games (1xB1G, 2xPAC, 3xB12) games and earns a $25
million gross bowl payout, it gets $13 milion, splits $12 million ($2MM>B1g,
$4MM>PAC and $6MM>B12). Those three conference might not field 2
BIG-Bowl Teams in a given year, but if BYU is the replacement, THEY AL WIN! SEC
& ACC LOSE! Trammel obviously liked it.
Getting a 5 game scheduling agreement would be tough. Instead, try to get a 2
game scheduling agreement from every P5 conference.That would put 10
P5 schools on the schedule, which would qualify BYU to call itself major. It
would provide opponents from coast to coast, retaining the exposure BYU wants.
Even if they could only get agreements from 4 conferences, eight P5-level games
is better than any past/future BYU schedule.
In fact Provo is ranked in the top 10 of best places to live in the USA on
almost every list or ranking you can find including #1 on many. Provo just
finished 2nd in voting for best city and place to live in the entire country
this past week beeting out every other city in America other than Duluth. I don't recall SLC being on ANY lists of "best" places let
alone EVERY list.
@2ferIn fact between Provo and Orem, where BYU and UVU are located,
there are close to 70,000 students that have elected to live there and go to
school. utah has what, around 20,000 in slc?when close to 4 times as
many students elect to live in Provo instead of slc....well that say's
plenty about what location is prefered by more people. The truth is
slc is not a very nice place to live or visit. Sure it has some attractions but
it is crowded, hard to get around, nowhere to park, filled with panhandlers,
frankly I avoid it like the plague unless I have something very specific to do
there most of which either involve business or church activities. Going up to
the university of utah is a nightmare of no parking and hard to access. Sorry but on location the university of utah fails miserably in
comparison to Provo. Unless you want bars I guess although getting a parking
spot near any of those is pretty much a nightmare as well.
These comments have become absolutely pathetic. Here's hoping that the
Big12 leadership read every one of them to...you know...get to know byu and
DuckhunterHighland, UTWhere is Tulsa on your list of "Best
Cities to live in" ?
Highland, UT@uteology and 2ferWell considering that
almost no one is turned down on an application to utah, that utah has a smaller
enrollment, that utah has less graduates, that utah take 1000's of students
that were rejected by BYU but BYU doesn't take any that were rejected by
utah, that BYU has more applicants than it can ever take, that utah has a
falling enrollment and isn't even the largest public university in the
state, and really I could go on and on but that is probably enough to prove the
following point.More people want to attend BYU even though its
entrance requirements are much more stringent.--------------Is BYU trying to get into the Ivy League, I thought this was about Big
12?I wasn't aware we were having a debate of scholars I thought
it was about why student athletes would choose a school. Hence, I listed Utah
produces MORE NFL talent AND provides a quality education in several nationally
ranked programs of study.You need athletes, in particular
African-American athletes, Salt Lake isn't a top destination of choice for
such athletes but Provo is an afterthought (ask Jamal Williams).
@uteologyUh...Jamal Williams did chose Provo and BYU over not just
utah and slc but also Oregon and Eugene among others. Usually if you are trying
to make a ppint, even a false one as you just tried to do, you need to reference
something that actually...you know....makes your point.
U-PACRowlett, TX"Sir, the U is a PAC caliber school and
ranks, in terms of academia and curricula, at a level that BYU will never be
able to compete with."Props to you, U-Pac. Well said! The
facts you cited are certainly on the radar of the Presidents and Chancellors of
the Pac-10 and a key reason that the University of Utah was extended an
invitation to the elite conference. As for byu, the Pac-12 is
well beyond its reach. Sadly, byu and its fans create their own reality and
will continue to claim superiority even while on their knees begging the Big12
to recognize them for...well...something.Go cougs!
PG #1 FANLindon, UT"Education? Please... what is the
average ACT Score for an incoming Freahman to BYU and what is it for Utah? 28 to
23. Average GPA in High School." High school? Are you seriously
bringing high school into the byu / Utah spitting contest? LOL! Memberships to
an athletically and academically elite conference are, as you should now be
aware, NOT simply handed out. As noted above, Pac-12 standards are well beyond
the reach of byu so keep begging for the Big12.It was well worth the
effort to find this comment from PG #1. Thanks again, U-Pac.
Duckhunter said, "BYU football played in a bowl game this last season, and
the season before, utah's did not"Duckhunter, why
don't you tell us the SOS for BYU and Utah football for the past 2 seasons.
And who won the head to head over the last 2 seasons? Care to include any of
those relevant facts in your analysis?
LouisD "I first proposed a Bowl Agreement to Barry Trammel about two weeks
ago... Trammel obviously liked it"Please read the Trammel
articles. All articles talk about scheduling regular season games only. None
of the articles talk about your idea (bowl agreements). Lafe Paevler, author of
the article in the Deseret News interjected that it would be nice if BYU also
got a bowl agreement. Peavler may like your idea, but Trammel is not discussing
@Duckhunter@uteologyUh...Jamal Williams did chose Provo
and BYU over not just utah and slc but also Oregon and Eugene among others.
Usually if you are trying to make a ppint, even a false one as you just tried to
do, you need to reference something that actually...you know....makes your
point.--------------------First, look at your roster and
count the number of African-Americans, if you can count the total on one hand,
you are irrelevant.Second, I said "ask" Jamal Williams:
"You can go to the regular schools, like BYU, somewhere that’s not
really known about.""[Family/friends] wondered why he would
choose to attend an LDS school in Utah...They like that I’m doing great
things here and showing all of the high schoolers back home that you don’t
have to go to the most popular school to have a big impact on the team. You can
go to the regular schools, like BYU, somewhere that’s not really known
about, and you can make a big impact."Source: Deseret News
@ Duckhunter30,000 students live in the Pullman-Moscow area up
North. Does that make it a better place to live than SLC, or do people just go
there to get a degree and then leave?Also, you are dead wrong about
SLC being a poor place to live or visit. If you think it's crowded and
hard to park downtown then you need to get out of Utah country and visit a big
city sometime. Downtown SLC is wonderful because compared to virtually every
other big city (outside of maybe Seattle and Portland), it is very clean, safe,
and it is incredibly easy to get around. Most things are in walking distance,
and if not, there is a free train that will drop you off outside the door of
wherever you need to go. Which is another solution to the paring, if you
don't feel like using one of the 33,000 public parking spots provided
downtown. To each his own, but it's a shame that you
aren't able to enjoy Salt Lake City because it is a great city to live and
@noperspective"Memberships to an athletically and academically
elite conference"LOL! We are talking about a conference that has
washington state, arizona, arizona state. oregon state, oregon, and utah in it.
Nothing about any of those institutions is "academically elite". LOL!
In all sincerity - I hope BYU can pull something off with the BIG 12. While I
am in no way a BYU fan - at all - having BYU in a much better situation than
they are in now only helps the state and the other programs. Face it - Savannah
State at home in November is just embarrassing. A lot more BYU fans are coming
around to the realization that independence is NOT the answer.Good
luck! Work it out!
JDWVUCharleston, WVYou say that there the Y would not play any
team two years in a row, but you have them playing TCU twice in both years 2 and
4. Hmmmm .... are we talking football or basketball?
LouisD:Are you seriously suggesting that BYU would earn a "gross
payout" of $25 million for any bowl game? The BCS Championship game this
year only paid out $18 million per team. Where are you coming up with your
This is news and people are talking about it...in Utah. Not much interest
elsewhere. And, no, the Big 12 isn't thinking it over because it isn't
a win-win for them. BYU wants to be with the big conferences, not the other way
around. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. Big 12 members
do not want to share their $220 million with BYU. Period. And they're happy
with their current members and have no plan to expand. BYU does not bring enough
to the table to make the conversation worthwhile. Next story...
DuckhunterHighland, UT@noperspective"Memberships to an athletically and academically elite conference"LOL! We are talking about a conference that has washington state,
arizona, arizona state. oregon state, oregon, and utah in it. Nothing about any
of those institutions is "academically elite".Continual
denial of the high status of the University of Utah as U-Pac pointed out
doesn't make your wishful thinking some kind of alternate reality. Utah
was judged and found worthy to join the most elite group of schools in the
country many of which hold a prominent status in the world (like Utah as U-Pac
noted). Further, you obviously don't know much about the Arizona schools.
Utah, not byu, was asked to join that elite group of schools.
Accept that fact and move on.
@ekute"You should take all of that and present it to the P5. Oh
wait...holmoe and mendenhall already did that. lol."It's
pretty obvious that "the P5" don't matter when it comes to such
things. You utah "fans" act as if nothing can occur without the explicit
approval of "the P5" when in fact "the P5" don't make a bit
of difference when it comes to any of the things I listed. Evidence?
Well my post is all the evidence needed. BYU did all of those things outside of
"the P5" while utah was incapable of doing any of them while being
inside "the P5".lol
@2ferJust because some other cities are worse it doesn't make
slc good. You made the claim of "slc>Provo" but the
truth is 4 times as many students refute that claim as do countless lists and
publications that all laud Provo as THE BEST place to live in the entire
country. That is right "THE BEST". slc doesn't make any of the
lists. Tell me this if it really is "slc>Provo" then how
come literally no one but some "frantic and emotional" utah
"fans" actually agree with that? How come the students choosing between
the two places and every single poll or publication that rates such things, all
national and unbiased, rates Provo so far above slc that there is no comparison
whatsoever?I know it is part of the utah "fan" narrative to
try and pretend that Provo is this awful backwater filled with bigots and
bumpkins but the actual facts simply prove otherwise. These are
facts:Provo>slc as proclaimed by every single publication that
rates such things.Provo>slc as decided by 4 times as many
students that choose which place to attend school in.
Oh and 2fer when was the last time Pullman/Moscow was rated as THE BEST place to
live in the entire country by anyone let alone just about everyone that studies
and makes such rankings?
It would be good for BYU to be a football member only.Like Utah, they
would benefit from an intact schedule each season. Only to have to arrange 3-4
OOC games.And also like Utah, BYU will find it tough to compete each
week with quality opponents. There is a big difference between Oklahoma State
and Idaho State.
@ DuckhunterThe student argument is extremely poor, to say the
least. More kids go to school in Provo/Orem because there are two schools.
Utah has 32,000 and BYU has 34,000. Obviously not a significant difference.Which publications? A quick Google search found that Time, Business
Week, and US News didn't include Provo on their best places to live lists.
Interesting side note though, Liveability (the top result) did rank Provo number
17.....behind Salt Lake City which was number 8. Have fun in Tulsa.Also, for what it's worth. I don't think Provo is a backwater
place. It is just boring. Painfully boring.
Two For Flinching:There are some additional flaws in
Duckhunter's stretched logic. I know...big surprise there.(1)
UVU's student population = 31,556 undergraduates. But the Y's
full-time student population = 27,978 undergraduates and 2,065 graduates (total:
30,043). So would Duckhunter be suggesting that UVU is a better school than the
Y? Afterall, it DOES have a 5% larger student body.(2) As
you'd already pointed out, he's trying to stack 2 universities in
WACistan to a single university in SLC. However, as far as student populations
go, SLC has more than just the UofU's 24,840 undergrad and 7,548 grad
(total: 32,388) students. SLCC brings another 30,112, and Westminster an
additional 2,887. And of course Utah's 32.4K > the Y's 30K or
UVU's 31.6K(3) Ducky's original (errant) argument that
WACistan drawing twice as many students as SLC is proof that Provo > SLC.
But if population justifies superiority...SLC is 64.9% more populous than Provo,
SL County is 99.3% more populous than Utah County, and SLC metro is 116.5% more
populous than Provo/Orem metro.Edge: Salt Lake City
Duckhunter, who cares what a publication says about the best places to live.If someone likes where they are currently living, that's the best place
to live for them.
Anyone else around here find it interesting that BYU is constantly called a, and
I quote, "mid-major" by fans of a certain school that by THEIR record
since getting into the PAC-12, they have solidly entrenched themselves as a, and
I quote, "mid-major".Does the word "ironic" mean
anything to them?Go Cougars!
BleedCougarBlue4-5, 3-6, 2-7, with back-to-back losing, bowl less
seasons tells you all you need to know about that mid-major up north.Of course they blame their record on SOS, but that refutes their previous
claims that the Utes could compete with anybody.If you read between
the lines, they're already dusting off another shelf in their hall of fame
closet for another SOS trophy.
@navalI never said the size of the student body makes one school
better, but the truth is every single student that attends BYU or UVU could have
gone to the university of utah if they had wanted to, they would have been
accepted. But we both know many of the students at the university of utah were
denied entrance into BYU and had to settle for the university of utah instead.
Not only that many of the students at UVU were also denied entry to BYU and
could have then gone to utah but instead prefered to stay in Provo/Orem and
attend UVU rather than go to slc and attend utah.In otherwords they
prefered to live in Provo/orem and not SLC by more than double the numbers than
cthose that chose to go to slc and utah. As for SLCC, well my son in
law currently attends SLCC in the Occupational Therapy program but lives in Utah
county. Neither he nor my daughter wanted anything to do with living in the sl
valley and instead he choose to commute to his classes.
@2ferActually the student argument is right on, you're just
struggling to grasp it so let me help you.There are exactly zero
students at BYU that were denied admittance to utah and went to BYU as their
fallback. There are a lot of students at utah that were denied admittance to BYU
and instead went to utah as their fallback. Now there are students
at utah that neither applied for BYU or wanted to attend BYU, and there are
probably even some students at utah that applied to, and were accepted by, both
schools that decided to go to utah over BYU. But there aren't any at BYU
that were denied entrance to utah and admitted to BYU so that means that far
more wanted to attend BYU than utah. That is just simple logic.
@2ferAs far as Provo being o the lists of "best places",
well you must have a very poor google function. Just one search of "Provo
Best' brought up over 30 pages of lists Provo has made over the last few
years of "best" places.Just this year they are #2 on the
Outside Online poll, #1 for Forbes, #2 for Business Insider (to be fair SLC is
#5 in that one but still lower than Provo) and going back over the last few
years #10 in Kiplingers, #7 for MSN/Money, TOP 10 for CNN/Money, "BEST"
for Triathletes, and the lists go on and on with many of them being #1 over the
last 2 decades.Really it isn't even a debate as to which place
independent publications rate better bewteen Provo and SLC.Now you
may prefer slc and good for you, but that is not the prevailing opinion of the
publications and organizations that make a business of rating such things nor is
it the prevailing opionion of the majority of the students that wish to attend
college in the state of Utah. Just the way it is.
Duckhunter, I'm not quite sure what the point of your argument with Naval
Vet and Two For Flinching is, but let me assure you that students are not going
to BYU because Provo is a good place to live. Most of the online poll you
reference have to do with very specific life satisfaction metrics (place to
start a business, outdoor opportunities, median income, etc), most of which have
little or no direct impact on students. Provo is a nice place to
live (as is SLC), but that is a separate argument from the one you are winning.
That more students want to go to BYU than Utah is an undeniable fact. However,
the reasons for it more likely have to do with the LDS culture, the unique
mission of BYU, athletic and academic superiority, etc. (not because it's
a groovy place to live). Because more students want to attend BYU enrollment
standards are higher resulting in a higher academic profile for undergraduates.
Do athletes care about the graduate profile of their institution?
Not usually, but it doesn't hurt. Utah has some outstanding graduate
programs and they represent the state well.
Duckhunter:"...the truth is every single student that attends
BYU or UVU could have gone to the university of utah if they had wanted to, they
would have been accepted."Actually, "the truth is" that
isn't the truth. For starters, not every UVU student could have obtained
admission to the U. UVU has an open admissions policy. Moreover, while there
are some U students who applied to, yet not granted admission to the Y, neither
of us really knows what the percentage of U students are who fell into that
category. When I was at the U, I'd met several students who transferred to
the U from the Y because they hated it...just like I did. And I'd also met
many students with full ride academic scholarships to both universities, but
opted to attend the U over the Y anyway. However, I never met a fellow student
who claimed his first choice was the Y.(cont...)
Duckhunter (cont.):On the other hand, every one of the UVCC students
I'd met while attending the Y, while living in off campus housing (Glenwood
Apts) -- EVERY ONE (and there were many) -- decided to attend the Orem campus
because they applied to, and did not obtain admission to, the Y, but wanted to
live in the Y's culture. Additionally, every one of their ultimate goals
was to eventually transfer to the Y.Make no mistake...it's UVU
-- not the U (or USU for that matter) that scoops up the lion's share of
all of the Y's rejects. It's the arrogance of the typical coug that
prevents them from seeing that not everyone wants to go to the Y. I
wouldn't doubt that everyone were being completely honest with themselves,
the bulk of Utah's and USU's student body chose the U and the USU as
their 1st choice of in-state institutions.(cont...)
Duckhunter (cont.):The Y's student body is overwhelmingly LDS.
Over 98% of them. And nearly 70% of the Y's student body population hails
from outside of Utah. But that doesn't matter since the Y doesn't
penalize students for being "out of state" like the U and USU do.
Out-of-state tuition can be a prohibitive disincentive to attend a particular
school. When I was at the Y, a lot of fellow students opted to attend because
of the LDS culture, but that doesn't mean every LDS person wants to be part
of the Y's LDS culture. The Y is an "extreme" LDS culture; one
that is far too conservative for some other LDS folks. Additionally, the Y's applicant pool is larger than the U's because
the Y's pool is "LDS members", whereas the U's is largely
"Utah residents". The LDS church has over 15 million members. The
state of Utah has under 3 million residents. And finally, folks
like you who are obsessed with high school transcripts and ACT scores just
don't get it. Nobody cares what those were after graduating from college.
Naval Vet, I agree that Utah is far more competitive (admissions-wise) than UVU,
but to even hint it is on par with BYU seems "frantic and emotional"
(there's your shout-out). Of course you have never met a Ute who admitted
BYU was their first choice... I likewise have never met a Cougar who was
dead-set on going to Utah. No one will readily admit to that (even to
themselves). But the facts don't lie.Acceptance rate: BYU 55%
of 12,557, Utah 83% of 9,545GPA and ACT of incoming students: BYU 3.81 and
28.2, Utah 3.59 and 24. (I agree these don't matter later on, but they
absolutely matter in making a choice for where to attend college).And of course the statistic that actually matters in this conversation...% of accepted students that enroll: BYU 78%(top 3 in the country), Utah 39%So "the truth" is that far more students want to go to BYU than
Utah and a reasonable assumption (based in statistical fact) is that BYU was the
first choice for most that apply to both BYU and the U. Looking forward to your
follow-up to Naval Vet. You make a fair point about BYU's applicant pool
being larger than Utah's but that doesn't change the accepted to
enrolled percentage. It does explain why more people apply to BYU and why many
of the applicants are out-of-staters. It does not even remotely suggest that
those who grew up in Utah more readily chose Utah over BYU. While I would not
be surprised if that were true for applicants from Salt Lake valley there is no
actual evidence to back that claim, while there is plenty of evidence to the
@ DuckhunterI'm not sure you know what you're trying to
argue. Acceptance rates between the two schools has nothing to with which city
is preferable to live in. As Navel pointed out, BYU has a pool if 15 million
people, Utah has a pool of a few million. It's not a mystery to why BYU
has higher enrollment standards and all that. However, it has everything to do
with the culture of the school, not because Provo is a great place to live.Wisconsincoug did an excellent job punching hole in your online polls
argument. I will just add that you can find anything you want while searching
on Google. Of course "Provo Best" will yield results that mention
Provo as the best place to live. You could probably do the same with any city.
I went with a generic, and unbiased, "Best place to live", and Provo was
nowhere to be seen. Also, it should be mentioned that search results are often
partially based on browser history, so we may have different results, even if we
google the exact same thing.
If we're going to continue to talk "college enrollment" on this
thread, at least one clarification should be made. If Utah has a pool of 3
million applicants because that is how many Utah residents there are (does no
one from AZ or ID apply to the U?), than BYU's pool should not be 15
million, because 1) not all those LDS members are active, 2) more than half of
those live outside the U.S., 3) most members of the church are not potential
college applicants, 4) BYU does attract several (like 17) non-members to their
campus, and 5) with higher admission standards many choose not to apply to BYU
(knowing they will not get in). I think a fairer comparison would
be the actual number of applicants to each school. Utah is in the 9-10k range
and BYU is in the 12-13k range. I think it's pretty incredible that both
schools have so many applicants, the state of Utah will probably need to
create/support another university within the next decade or so.