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Two Mormon activists say they are facing church discipline

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  • truth in all its forms henderson, NV
    June 11, 2014 3:23 p.m.

    If you are actively protesting about key doctrines, than don't be surprised that you are facing church discipline.

  • LovelyDeseret Gilbert, AZ
    June 11, 2014 3:29 p.m.

    It is about time John Dehlin faced Church discipline.

  • mostlygizzards Mesa, AZ
    June 11, 2014 3:34 p.m.

    I'm sad today. This is not what Christ would have done.

  • SLCPorter SLC, UT
    June 11, 2014 3:36 p.m.

    This is a huge mistake for the Church if their goal is to make these movements go away. Making a martyr out of the leader of an organization will only galvanize and mobilize the followers of Mormon Stories and Ordain Women. If anyone should understand this dynamic its the LDS Church.

  • Uncle Rico Sandy, UT
    June 11, 2014 3:37 p.m.

    Kate Kelly has to have already accepted the fact that disciplinary action was probably in her future and planned accordingly. Speaking with the New York Times, tells me she is on schedule.

  • David Centerville, UT
    June 11, 2014 3:37 p.m.

    Some people feel that they can oppose an organization, work against its purposes, and try to influence others to think and act against the organization, and remain a member of the organization. Can you imagine behaving in such a way at your employment? What if you volunteered at a food pantry, but while there you protested the efforts of the pantry, spoke against it, and tried to get others opposed to it. The food pantry wouldn't invite you to return.

    Those opposed to the LDS church, who actively work against it, and try to enlist other members to oppose the church, shouldn't feel bad if the church excommunicates them, or removes their membership.

  • DLC/Orange County Placentia, CA
    June 11, 2014 3:39 p.m.

    I was wondering how long the Church would let her continue her protests against doctrine. Publicly criticizing the church and organizing groups against it will always bring some kind of disciplinary action.

  • mufasta American Fork, UT
    June 11, 2014 3:45 p.m.

    If Dehlin no longer believes "many of the fundamental LDS church truth claims" then why is he seeking the Priesthood for female members? Sounds like he is just trying to create discord among the members. I respect his beliefs and hope that this matter can be resolved in a manner that respects the dignity of both the LDS church and its members.

  • BigD Salt Lake City, UT
    June 11, 2014 3:47 p.m.

    Surprised it didn't happen sooner. The writing was on the wall and after Elder Oak's talk in April it should be happening.

  • Granny Saint George, UT
    June 11, 2014 3:47 p.m.

    Kate Kelly faces "possible excommunication or other discipline for 'openly, repeatedly and deliberately acting in public opposition to the church and its leaders after having been counseled not to do so.'" As the articles states, all organizations have boundaries...she knows the boundaries and has continually ignored them. Now come the consequences.

    The last several paragraphs about how the LDS Church handles matters of this privately are well stated. I hope church detractors will read and re-read these paragraphs when they want to condemn the church for whatever actions may be taken in Ms. Kelly's case. SHE IS responsible for whatever sanctions her stake president and other stake leaders impose.

    I truly wish her well.

  • Third try screen name Mapleton, UT
    June 11, 2014 3:47 p.m.

    It would be hard to deny that the Church has been patient and longsuffering with Sister Kelly. She has pushed against the Brethren in her marches on Temple Square, knowing in advance that she would be turned away.
    Talks have been given, directed at her question, and yet she somehow thought there was a special answer for her.
    She did not get the message, yet His arms are is outstretched still. This is not the end for her. She has the upcoming disciplinary counsel, but she must attend, and she must go in the spirit of humility and teachableness.
    From her comments to the NYT, it appears that she is not contrite, claiming instead that she must be true to herself.
    I hope she changes her heart and follows the counsel given.

  • happy man Sandy, UT
    June 11, 2014 3:56 p.m.

    Why do you think John needs Church discipline?

  • Richie Saint George, UT
    June 11, 2014 3:57 p.m.

    They resurrected Sonja Johnson and these folks are going to learn they are not above Church discipline.

  • RBN Salt Lake City, UT
    June 11, 2014 3:58 p.m.

    @Lifelong Ute

    I agree that Kate Kelley's course seemed to be leading to church discipline. I hope it's not the last we hear of her. I hope that she figures out that it really is more about responsibility than rights, and becomes an outspoken supporter of the prophet. Not likely, but I hope.

  • Max Upstate, NY
    June 11, 2014 4:00 p.m.

    I don't know why these people want to stay in a church that they don't believe is of God. The only possible explanation is that they get more attention by staying than they would by leaving. It seems to me that this is all about being in the lime-light. There would be no other reason to go running to the NY Times.

  • jeanie orem, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:01 p.m.

    No surprise here. I'm sorry for these people. Those who have walked this path of "I love my church so much I'm willing to cause turbulence to make it better" have never ended up in a good place. Walking in strange paths starts innocent enough and when a course correction is pointed out but not made, when someone feels they know better than those with God-given authority, they can find themselves in a really tragic place. For observers It's kind of of like watching an approaching car accident and being helpless to do anything about it. Just sad.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:02 p.m.

    I have a feeling that any of you who are thinking and/or hoping that these things are just going to go away are going to be sorely disappointed.

  • MoJules Florissant, MO
    June 11, 2014 4:03 p.m.

    We make covenants when we are baptized and when we go to the temple. When some of those covenants are broken and are quite serious, then there is a need to go through Church discipline. What offends me more from the "infraction" that these mentioned people did, is that they took it to a national media who has no understanding about the Church and how it is structured.

  • heidis Hines, OR
    June 11, 2014 4:05 p.m.

    She should not exhibit her surprise in this matter. Ms. Kelly ventured on this path and is now taking it to its logical conclusion. It is sad, but could have been avoided. Choices have consequences.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    June 11, 2014 4:05 p.m.

    If expressing independent views is cause for disciplinary action, then the LDS Church still has a lot of maturing to do before it’s a religion for adults.

  • CWEB Orem, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:06 p.m.

    No story here, just sad.

  • liberty or ...? Ogden, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:09 p.m.

    You mean you can't teach against the doctrine of a church and not face consequances. Listen people this church has specific teachings in regards to where its doctrine comes from I don't care whether you believe it or not as a non member but as a member when sustain these brethren in conference you are acknowledging that you agree with the doctrine and will recognize their callings and all that entails unlike other churches we don't hold committees to determine our doctrine or take votes to alter it. You are not forced to follow their counsel either you are counseled to search it out for yourself but if you claim to acknowledge the leadership of the church as we claim then if you are in conflict with what the leaders are saying you might need to re-evaluate yourself. This sister should listen to Elder Oaks last conference talk he pretty much settled it.This happened once in Kirtland when some members tried a coup against Jospeh smith. Brigham young's answer to them is my answer as well. for the cynics please don't mention Polygamy or Blacks and the priesthood you'll only embarass yourself.

  • TOO Sanpete, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:11 p.m.

    What'd she expect to happen?

    Did she really believe that she was going to be the first female to EVER receive the priesthood? Did she honestly believe that she was going to change the Savior's mind? Did she truly think that the church leaders were going to ignore her and her sidekicks?

    When you fight against the leaders of the church, you will be reprimanded. The fact that she is publicizing this and telling the media shows she doesn't give two hoots what happens to her. It's completely un-remorseful. She has no shame. She wants to be on a headline and lead a group down so she doesn't go alone.

  • mostlygizzards Mesa, AZ
    June 11, 2014 4:12 p.m.

    Kate Kelly conjures a modern day Emma Smith. She stood on principle, and ended up despised by

  • Cougar11 Highland, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:17 p.m.

    Cloak yourself in church membership, act in open agression against church policy showing that you believe Christ is not the head of the church, receive warnings to change your behavior and repeat instead. Find out that church discipline is coming and run to the New York Times to receive praise instead of your Heavenly Father to receive council. Yes, these people are true disciples. Now write a book, go on speaking tours, trash what you say you once believed in, lead other astray and you will come to copy the workings of a fallen angel I heard about once. Good luck to you both and those that follow you.

  • mostlygizzards Mesa, AZ
    June 11, 2014 4:17 p.m.

    "the Church is not a political organization caving in to political correctness."

    Prop 8
    Civil Rights (Blacks & Priesthood)
    Polygamy & "The Manifesto"

    Yeah, I'm not seeing a pattern here, at all.

  • Benjamin Heward Orem, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:18 p.m.

    ALL are welcomed to join the body of Christ, and ALL are welcomed to heed his call. Part of heeding his call is obedience to the principles and ordinances set forth in his gospel. Having questions is one thing. Wondering if changes should be made is one thing. But when people raise up an unrest, and (purposefully or not) damage many people with fledgling testimonies, then they are a negative force toward the growth of the church. Many LDS do not have a firm enough testimony. Yes, this is a personal failing on their part, due to not seeking for one enough. However, these people, when they leave the church.... did so "early", before they had a full conversion. They would have had a different future in the church, if not dissuaded by organized apostatized thought. LDS investigators may also have been turned away from possible conversion... in droves. That is what internal dissension and contention causes. Concerning people who say they will be removing themselves from the Church over this, people "marking themselves" by purposefully removing themselves from church membership (for any reason), is sad and disheartening. 1 of 2

  • Mormon Left North Salt Lake, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:19 p.m.

    There are thousands of members of the church that don't believe certain of the doctrines and claims of the church but who nonetheless find value in being a member. Kate and John were at the forefront of helping many of them reconcile that in their lives. It's a difficult thing to do alone. This sends a message that even though the church publicly says they want to be inclusive and include these people, their actions may indicate otherwise.

  • OldFriend Allentown, PA
    June 11, 2014 4:21 p.m.

    To ya'll that are saying things like, "hopefully this is the last we hear from her" and "it's about time"... be careful.

    Matt 7:1-5.

  • Tuffy Parker Salem, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:25 p.m.

    It is impossible to be a member in good standing if one repeatedly and continually evangelizes positions and arguments that are contrary to church doctrine.

    The church is not unique in this - nearly any organization will likely withdraw membership privileges from a member who is in vocal opposition to the charter or tenets of the organization.

    This should be a surprise to no one. If a person is diametrically to opposed to church doctrine, how can they expect or even wish to retain the privileges of membership.

  • KTC John Wetumpka, AL
    June 11, 2014 4:25 p.m.

    The protestors come and go. Remember Sonia Johnson? Probably not. That's my point.

  • fish8 Vernal, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:27 p.m.

    You call them Mormon activists but aren't they really anti Mormon activists? They are against Mormon church policy, thus they are anti.

  • Strider303 Salt Lake City, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:27 p.m.

    I just hope that after Ms. Kelley has her 15 minutes of fame, which should include 5 minutes on a national morning show and some ink in the "Times" she will get on with her life and be yesterday's news.

    I am sure those facing discipline will milk it for all it's worth. The game of victim-hood is well played among the Liberal Left. Martyrs abound but after all is said and done, they will be in the past as new victims rise to the fore.

    I think their ripple in the pond of life will be smaller than they envision.

    Perhaps Ms. Kelley can find a theology or faith that will permit her membership and she can find the status and position she seeks.

  • Benjamin Heward Sr. Orem, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:30 p.m.

    But it does not change the course of the church, they hurt only themselves, and mark themselves as apostates. Apostates who, nevertheless, do have strong convictions of the truth of the gospel taught within the church, and true conviction in the atonement of their Savior Jesus Christ, but nevertheless choose to not abide by the structure of the church, which has been set forth by revelation, and is structured according to revelation, and is not "changed" by man, but through additional revelation. Patience is key. Not causing damage to the church membership while waiting is key. Having FAITH that the church is guided by Christ, through the Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood is key. Knowing that individual worth is enough is key. Woman are the greatest and grandest creation. Woman have been endowed with powers of motherhood that men will not ever be given in all eternity. And that is a greater and grandeur blessing than our ability to utilize the priesthood in ordinances in ways that women (as currently revealed) cannot. 2 of 2

  • coleman51 Orem, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:30 p.m.

    The only way that Kate Kelly would be excommunicated would be if she becomes openly defiant with her church authorities. If she shows the least bit of willingness to work this through with church authorities, she may be disfellowshipped at the most. The ball is totally in her court how she wants to conduct herself before a disciplinary council. I speak from experience on the matter having been in a Bishopric. Excommunication is reserved for those who are defiant and unrepentant and/or choose to have their names removed from the records of the church.

  • dwidenhouse Pleasant Grove, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:36 p.m.

    This makes me very sad. I'm not upset that the Church is taking discipline action. I'm sad because I know that these two individuals have (or had) a testimony. It is in there somewhere. There are so many blessings that are lost by not following the words of the prophets. I wish I could talk to them and say "Please! You can find happiness! You already know this. It isn't found in opposing the will of the Lord but in the doing of it."

  • Legalize_the_Constitution SOUTH JORDAN, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:38 p.m.

    Very saddened by this news, I thought the church had grown more accepting of different viewpoints. This type of action will only lead to more isolation for the church. Differences in orthodoxy should not be a litmus test for membership. As an active member all my life, I'm very dismayed by this news.

  • HRM Salt Lake City, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:41 p.m.

    What is most heartbreaking in this is to read the vitriolic, hateful, even gleeful comments aimed at Brother Dehlin and Sister Kelly. We should not want them to go! This is not what Christ would have done, nor what He instructed us to do. He set an example for us by leaving the 99 and seeking out the 1. He didn't say, "Good riddance, 1! We don't need or want you!" He instructed us to love one another, and to offer charity to our brothers and sisters. What is charitable about this?

    Also, those of us who are members of the LDS church would do well to remember that we covenanted to mourn with those who mourn, and comfort those who stand in need of comfort. I must have missed somewhere a covenant to ridicule and force out anyone with whom we don't agree.

    This seems like a political move on the church's part to suppress and exclude anyone with temerity to ask questions, even though asking questions is what led to the restoration in the first place.

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:41 p.m.

    Kate Kelly should have seen this coming. Being put on informal probation isn't just for fun. It is intended to get a person started on the right path and help them correct inappropriate behavior. She continued her activities, even after being put on informal probation so a disciplinary council now becomes necessary to address possibly more serious discipline. I'm sad that she has chosen to push it this far, but not surprised.

    The Church will not be harmed in the long run by this. I remember when Sonja Johnson and others acted similarly in the 1970's. She was excommunicated and only she has suffered lasting consequences from her actions. The Church has moved on and will go on beyond this current situation.

  • KamUte South Jordan, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:42 p.m.

    If one truly believes the doctrine, there is not room to dispute. If you don't truly believe the doctrine, it would make sense to ask why women are not ordained.

  • Frank Fourth New York, NY
    June 11, 2014 4:46 p.m.

    LDS Church may discipline 2 members.

    In other news, this NY Times reporter has written about church discipline in the past and the church issued a statement.

    OOKKK.

  • Ed Grady Idaho Falls, ID
    June 11, 2014 4:52 p.m.

    Don't give them the satisfaction of a disciplinary council. Just ignore them.

  • WaybackCougar Salt Lake City, UT
    June 11, 2014 4:54 p.m.

    The Dehlin situation has nothing to do with Ordain Women. For years, John Dehlin has vacillated in his public expressions about the Church but lately seems to have become increasingly alienated. Back when his object was ostensibly to help people with doubts find ways to stay LDS, I felt he was doing some good. I personally enjoyed many of his writings and podcasts. But lately his doubts have gained the upper hand.

    Sad to see things reach this point but when one is so public about it, he/she should probably expect that the Church will eventually feel it necessary to respond. Same with Kelly in that regard.

  • VA Saint Colonial Heights, VA
    June 11, 2014 5:12 p.m.

    Craig,if you were to consistently go against your boss at work, and then complain about him to the media, would you still have your job? I think not. The Church is different in that Sister Kelly has been advised not to go against the doctrines of the Church, yet she continued to do so. Going to the media, people who know nothing of, and who do not understand the tenets of the Church, was not a wise decision on her part. Yes, we have independent views, but going against the doctrine is cause for disciplinary action.

  • Justcommonsense Slc, UT
    June 11, 2014 5:18 p.m.

    An obvious outcome. She joined, became disenchanted with the religious views, sought to change them, then wonders why she is being asked to resign her membership. It's not rocket science.

  • Harrison Bergeron Holladay , UT
    June 11, 2014 5:19 p.m.

    There are many on-ramps to the road to apostasy. All are clearly marked with ample warnings to turn around. She knew this was one of them, and yet chose proceed.

    Even now, I'm sure it's not too late for a U-turn. But sadly, like other apostates, I'm sure her heart has become hardened. Tragically, once she has left the Church, her bitterness will make it hard to leave it alone.

  • BFitzy Saratoga Springs, UT
    June 11, 2014 5:21 p.m.

    I'm absolutely floored by some of these comments... John Dehlin, among others, has actually helped me to reconcile my faith in the Gospel with many of the problems I have with the Church and stay an active member. I can't think of a worse way to describe an "apostate." Having said that, I see no reason to point fingers at either individual nor rejoice in what's happening to them. I don't know why we all can't stop acting towards others like we're all a part of some elitist club instead of just extending our love...

  • dlw7 LOGAN, UT
    June 11, 2014 5:22 p.m.

    You are either IN and follow the tenets of a religion or you get OUT. I don't think God lets us pick and chooses which things we agree with

  • Hockey Fan Miles City, MT
    June 11, 2014 5:26 p.m.

    I don't know how they can say they are surprised by the likelihood of disciplinary action. Surely they know what they are doing. Unfortunately, apostasy is apostasy, and eventually disciplinary action has to take place. As for bad publicity and fueling the fire, does anybody remember Sonja Johnson? She has largely faded from memory. So will others who fight against Church doctrines and practices. It is sad, to be sure.

  • Common Cents Lehi, UT
    June 11, 2014 5:29 p.m.

    Disagreeing with doctrine and/or leaders is one thing (and I think there is room in the Church for this), publicly proselytizing for the purposes of causing disruption is another.

    Also, in some cases, their are people in these groups that haven't been involved or active in the Church for several years, but seem to be joining in for the fun of it.

    This isn't productive thought, it's an annoyance, and hurting the Church.

    No one is forced to believe a certain way.

  • Francis LeGuarde Sandy, UT
    June 11, 2014 5:31 p.m.

    I'm not sure what the church hopes to gain, but I'm sure they are under no illusion that this will make Ordain Women or any other critical groups disappear. The odds of this ending well for anyone are not high, but I'm not sure what Kelly and Dehlin expected. The church's tolerance for criticism may have expanded over the last twenty years, but there's still a line. That shouldn't come as a surprise for anyone.

  • IMO-4 what it-s worth Oak Ridge, TN
    June 11, 2014 5:40 p.m.

    Church discipline is warranted - and oddly enough, should be expected by these members. Even more so when it involves others who are merely followers in an effort to show support. Why the push to become ordained?

  • sammyg Springville, UT
    June 11, 2014 5:41 p.m.

    Not surprised and frankly glad to see progress in this matter. We all knew how this sad story would end before it happened.

    I can only hope those that were somehow influenced by this woman will now consider their own relationship to the Savior, their position in the church, its leadership and hopefully correct their course.

  • runnerguy50 Virginia Beach, Va
    June 11, 2014 5:43 p.m.

    I never understood Kate Kelly's issues but I thought Dehlin was trying to do good within the church even if he wasn't always right.

  • dtday2003 Lithia, FL
    June 11, 2014 5:46 p.m.

    Although I never truly struggled with this issue, I put myself in the shoes of those who are choosing to follow her. The spirit definitely told me the choice is to follow Kate Kelly, a regular person, or the prophet. I choose the prophet. Unfortunately, I fear that there may be many others who will end up in this same situation because they choose to follow Kate Kelly and not the prophet. Between this and same sex marriage, I could see a possible mass exodus from the church. So sad to loose your testimony over this.

  • higv Dietrich, ID
    June 11, 2014 5:51 p.m.

    @mostlygizzards how do you know what Christ would of done? He runs this church and said he cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. You have to agree to certain things before baptism, and for the sake of the transgressor Disfellowshipment of excommunication is needed for there sake. Have to preserve the integrity of the church and protect the sinners. Christ would be generous with people that had to have discipline but sometimes it is necessary, Jesus was stern in denouncing sin and cleansing the temple because that was best for people at the time.

  • Henry Drummond San Jose, CA
    June 11, 2014 5:54 p.m.

    I'm not surprised that Kate Kelly drew criticism from Church leaders, but was very surprised that John Dehlin and his "Mormon Stories" website would offend anyone. I haven't visited the site recently but in the past it seemed quite positive and was encouraging people to reconcile their doubts with the good the church does. I am not LDS but I have seen similar websites in the Catholic faith that seek to make peace with conflicting feelings about religion.

  • kitsutsuki South Jordan, Utah
    June 11, 2014 6:12 p.m.

    One of the undeniable results of Kate Kelley's actions is the response it brings from the LDS-haters. Just go the the competing paper's comment section and see what is being written. I read one or two comments and that was enough for me.

    She is also unwittingly (or otherwise - only she knows) causing much harm to individual members of the Church that might have a bit of wavering testimony. The harm she potentially causes in her own life is one thing; when it starts impacting others, it becomes an extremely serious matter.

    Hopefully she can change course before it is too late - for her and those who choose to follow her.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Chihuahua, 00
    June 11, 2014 6:15 p.m.

    HRM

    There is a huge difference between asking question and openly opposing church doctrine. The church will never be secularized like you want it to be and it will never be of the world.

  • mhenshaw Leesburg, VA
    June 11, 2014 6:28 p.m.

    >>If you don't truly believe the doctrine, it would make sense to ask why women are not ordained.

    Sure, there's no harm in asking questions about doctrine; in fact, members should be encouraged to ask questions. The Church is, in a sense, a school where we go to learn about Christ and His doctrine. And those honestly seeking answers about why women aren't ordained, Elder Oaks provided a marvelous answer last April.

    Staging press events and mobilizing others to demand Church leaders to let you and your clique into meetings when you've been told repeatedly that you will not be admitted are not the actions of someone who's humbly seeking answers to legitimate questions. They are the actions of someone who's made up her mind that the doctrine was wrong and is actively mobilizing other members to pressure the General Authorities to change it. That's a different beast entirely -- simply put, it's rebellion.

  • UteNationAlum Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 11, 2014 6:42 p.m.

    Did she not see this coming? This is total apostasy.

    There will be many within the church who fight against the leaders and doctrine. We as members need to stay strong and follow the doctrine and teachings of Christ.

    Press forward saints!

  • Aephelps14 San Luis Obispo, CA
    June 11, 2014 6:45 p.m.

    I am sad to hear this. I obviously don't know the details of her case on a personal level, which may include behavior worthy of excommunication (which is therefore none of my business). Based on what I have read on ordainwomen.org, the discussion there does not attempt to lead people astray, it encourages responsibly asking questions and seeking answers. Nor does it act against the causes of the LDS church. It appears to be a site that fosters discussion about the inequality within the LDS church. They believe that equality cannot be achieved if women are not ordained. That is purely an opinion that they want church leaders to be more acquainted with so that they can ponder it and pray about it. I am not sure what the fuss is all about or why that idea makes people so angry. Weird.

  • michael.jensen369 Lethbridge, 00
    June 11, 2014 6:59 p.m.

    I think that some misunderstand how revelation even works. Obtaining revelation is not about asking questions. It is about asking inspired questions. Inspired questions lead to inspired answers. Uninspired questions, lead to either no answer, or an answer from a deceiving source. Inspired questions are planted in our hearts and minds by the power of the Holy Ghost, as we humbly seek guidance from God. I've also learned in a very painful way, that the divinely decreed bounds of stewardships also influence what revelation we may, or may not be authorized to receive. When we seek to step out of our stewardships in any way, the adversary has power to lead us astray. Nobody is immune. Follow the prophet!

  • Shimlau SAINT GEORGE, UT
    June 11, 2014 7:16 p.m.

    Legalize_the_constitution: I would call a person who continuosly and publicly advocates changing church doctrine by protest, an apostate. therefore the church court. If she goes through the entire scenario, the very worst that can happen to her is that she will be removed from membership in the church. she will not be deprived of life, liberty, or property. This will be totally her call.

    HRM: We don't "want them to go!" What we do want them to do is repentant. When The Savior visited the Nephites, he told them that all would be welcome in the church but if they transgressed and there were witnesses, and they didn't repent, then their names were to be blotted out. nevertheless, they were still to be loved. see 3Nephi 18:31 (read the entire chapter) and Moroni 6:7 (once again the entire chapter)

    It pains me to see people leave the Gospel because of things like this, but the call is theirs, and to all of you who think the brethren are being unreasonable, what do the doctrines say?

  • Cheesecake Salt Lake City, UT
    June 11, 2014 7:16 p.m.

    My heart goes out to John Dehlin, and especially his family. He's a good man, and he cares deeply for those with whom he associates. He has saved lives, and helped dozens of people remain in the church despite their questions and doubts. Anyone who wonders why he wants to stay a part of the church despite questioning history and doctrines need only consider community, culture, family, and a sense of belonging. It's a no-brainer to want to remain part of the culture you know and love. This news is shocking.

  • PG33 Layton, Utah
    June 11, 2014 7:24 p.m.

    So sad; but she made a choice; she knew what she was doing and what the consequences would be. You can have your personal doubts but once you start to seek followers and create doubt in others, church discipline will almost always follow. I don't presume to know what that discipline will be or how severe. But it is sad when you see someone assume that they know what's best or are more enlightened than God's chosen servants; in this case His Prophet. My heart goes out to her. I hope that one day she can find peace, hope and understanding through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and return back into His fold.

  • AerilusMaximus Berryville, VA
    June 11, 2014 7:31 p.m.

    Made me think of the following verse in the doctrine and covenants:

    "..when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

    "Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God."

    The Church has addressed the concerns of these members. I have no problem with them leaving the Church. They are creating a major distraction / hiderance for probably a lot of church members. Time that the leadership could have been spending on other more pressing issues is getting diverted to these ridiculous notions.

    Every conference we sustain the raise our hands and sustain the President of the Church, his councilors and the other apostles of the Church as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.

    I wonder if the members mentioned in this article missed that portion of conference?

  • antodav TAMPA, FL
    June 11, 2014 8:04 p.m.

    This was inevitable, and moreover long overdue. It is what happens when people try to fight against God.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    June 11, 2014 8:08 p.m.

    Is the only way to get rid of your membership is to be excommunicated or can you call the church and just say you no longer want to be a member?

  • The Wraith Kaysville, UT
    June 11, 2014 8:41 p.m.

    Yes Shaun those are the two ways. It used to be very difficult to have your name removed voluntarily but the church has made it much easier over time. I actually emailed my request and my name was removed 2 months later.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 11, 2014 8:58 p.m.

    Interesting. The only way we'll know what happens next is if these disaffected members continue to talk about it afterwards.

    In some ways, the Church is handicapped by its duty of confidentiality in disciplinary proceedings. Members who are disclplined or excommunicated are free to tell a one-sided story, but the Church does not disclose what actually happened, and the facts upon which leaders relied, in response. Maybe a change of policy, as in, "If you talk, you waive your right to confidentiality" might chill some of the bad press that ex-members try to generate, particularly if they knew that their deeds would become public. But, it will never happen--the door to repentance must always be open.

  • rlsintx Plano, TX
    June 11, 2014 9:01 p.m.

    Pride goeth before the fall.

  • wilsclanmom Alexandria, VA
    June 11, 2014 9:02 p.m.

    I am so glad John Dehlin is facing excommunication. He has long valued his church membership only as "sheep's clothing" so he could claim on his website that he is giving a fair and balanced view, and that he is a person who is struggling with the same kind of issues they are and he truly understands, etc, etc. To ex-Mormon groups he bragged about how many people he persuaded to leave the church. He is exactly the kind of person who needs to be excommunicated so that he can not keep speaking to the press as an "active Mormon." He did all in his power to undermine the church and only used his membership, which he is loathe to lose for that very reason, because it gave him cover. Good riddance.

  • Midwest Mom Soldiers Grove, WI
    June 11, 2014 9:09 p.m.

    Sad to see that so many are glad / hoping to see these people go. The better solution is for everyone to reach out to her and help her to stay. "Faith unto repentance" is our message. We all need to put it more into action.

  • Ophelia Bountiful, UT
    June 11, 2014 9:11 p.m.

    During my agonizing faith crises, John Dehlin helped me continue with hope. His conferences and podcasts helped me more than I can say. This makes me so very sad.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    June 11, 2014 9:12 p.m.

    Wraith,

    I congratulate you on your decision to leave the lds church. No doubt the decision will bring your great joy an peace.

  • OhBoy Washington, DC
    June 11, 2014 9:14 p.m.

    I think outside the box, but Kate Kelly, her cause, and her approach never resonated with me. I wish her the best in the future, though.

  • ThornBirds St.George, Utah
    June 11, 2014 9:20 p.m.

    Everyone, everywhere is taught that there is opposition in all things.
    Perhaps these ladies will form some sort of offshoot religious order as some Catholic, Jews, and other Christian faiths have done over the years. It would be interesting to observe how many other LDS women may then follow them. We all know that many Mormon women do speak up when controversies like this are discussed.
    Anyone recall the Anglican Church origins, for instance? This religion as become a large and respected faith since it's beginnings.
    Many here on this and related comment forums have strongly stated that God loves all of his children.
    If one is trying to worship in a decent, honest way, that feels real and important to them, that truly may be all that God expects of us.
    I would hope these women would not feel either threatened or intimidated and will continue doing what they feel in their hearts is correct.

  • Cinci Man FT MITCHELL, KY
    June 11, 2014 9:27 p.m.

    I am always very sad to see someone lose their testimony and campaign against the church doctrines. For non members it's expected, especially since they are not in touch with the confirmation of the Spirit. But when someone has learned how to feel the Spirit and knows how to remember that feeling and conviction, it's always sad to see the countenance sink and the blessings withdraw. I truly hope that one day, Ms. Kelly will respond differently than did Sonia Johnson. There have been some who have figured things out and returned. Some have not. Ms. Kelly says that excommunication is being kicked out of her eternal family. If she believes that, she will live her life consistently with that conviction. If she does not believe it, then her game continues and her anticipated consequences are just. I pray she will search her soul and learn that teachings about her eternal family are true.

  • LVIS Salt Lake City, UT
    June 11, 2014 9:32 p.m.

    "Throughout my Mormon adulthood, I have discovered that the Judeo-Christian/Mormon God that was taught to me in seminary--the God that requested Isaac’s sacrifice of Abraham as a test, and cursed Job for sport; the God that would send his Son to die, instead of facing the suffering Himself; the God that sent an angel with a flaming sword to Joseph; the God that blamed the members for the failures of Zion’s camp; the God whose divinely-led church still finds a way to either oppose or remain behind the times on any significant civil rights or social justice movement; the God who, instead,
    directs His church to build a multi-billion dollar commercial shopping mall over channeling the widow’s mite to the poor. I struggle to believe in this type of God." --John Dehlin, 2012 Sunstone Symposium

    You can believe what you want, or not. Makes no never-mind to me. But when your beliefs--and what you teach--are so out of sync with the teachings of the church you belong to, why remain?

  • Aggie5 Kuna, ID
    June 11, 2014 9:39 p.m.

    If they don't agree with things, then they can easily move on.

  • Jim Mesa, Az
    June 11, 2014 9:41 p.m.

    I think that this will be a classical example of someone who leaves the church, but won't be able to leave the church alone.

  • tlaulu Taylorsville, Utah
    June 11, 2014 9:52 p.m.

    "While they who reject this glad message shall never such happiness know" And I know many of them.

  • amagnetick AV, CA
    June 11, 2014 9:52 p.m.

    Running to the NYT to announce that you may be subject to church discipline for your actions is very telling. Disciplinary councils are entirely confidential and are kept that way for a reason. It is a sad thing that she chose to reveal this in the way that she did. My opinion is that this was her plan all along. Bend to my will or I will drag you through the mud. Seriously doubt this will damage the Church much at all. Truth be told, it most likely will bring more into the fold. The work will progress and this little bump in the road will not stop it.

  • Ironhide Salt Lake City, UT
    June 11, 2014 9:53 p.m.

    This is really straight forward. Her issue isn't with church headquarters. It is with Heavenly Father. The Savior could have given the priesthood to many women he encountered during His work on the earth but He didn't. Yet women have the same access to it's power as men,they just are not ordained. It is difficult not to feel like she is scratching an itch from her past. Then she tops it off with telling one of the most well known news outlets in the world. If that isn't contrition and humility from honest and sincere intent, I don't know what is! Good grief. With such egregious actions, then the perspective wanders to other motives like attention or capitalizing on the spotlight she is getting. Bad form and poor approach from any vantage point it is viewed

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    June 11, 2014 9:56 p.m.

    I've read statements of hers in other articles about this being done by her old ward after she'd moved away. Is that normal? I mean, it seems highly inconvenient to not just transfer her records to the new ward and have them be the ones to decide what to do.

  • 32843 PROVO, UT
    June 11, 2014 9:59 p.m.

    There is a fundamental inconsistency between what Kate Kelly does and with what she says she believes to be true. On the one hand Kelly wants the sisters of the Church to be given the Priesthood... a Priesthood she apparently believes has power and gives the righteous Priesthood holder some sort of authority the sisters don't seem to have without it (otherwise, why all the fuss over something she doesn't believe in to begin with?). If she believes this is true, then she must also believe that the LDS Church is Christs Church on the Earth and that it is lead by prophets and apostles with the prophet of the Church today, Thomas Monson, holding all the keys to the Kingdom, and supposedly able to unilaterally grant her the Priesthood without Christs consent or blessing.

    If she believes she must be given the Priesthood by one with authority, and that authority resides with her Priesthood leaders in the LDS Church, she then obviously believes the LDS Church possesses the power and authority to give Christs Priesthood. Why, then is she willing to be excommunicated from Christs church and cut off from the very thing she desires?

  • VAggie Bristow, United States
    June 11, 2014 10:00 p.m.

    I grew up in the Stake that's Ms. Kelly is from. I know many of the leaders in this stake. I have been counciled by the leaders in that stake when my actions were not in line with the churches teaching. Although now I have gone a different direction in my life I have never questioned the love and sincerity those leaders had for me and will always be grateful to then for it.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    June 11, 2014 10:00 p.m.

    You all realize that if Jesus would have been held to the same standard in his day by church leaders, he would have been given a stern talking to, severely sanctioned, or worse.

    Oh wait…

  • jrp7sen Logan, UT
    June 11, 2014 10:02 p.m.

    I disagree with the church. John Dehlin is more christ-like and loving than most members of this church.

  • Utes11 Salt Lake City, Utah
    June 11, 2014 10:08 p.m.

    These women don't want "the priesthood". They just want what every other Christian woman wants and receives according to Christ's word in the Bible. They want to be able to have personal salvation on their own and be able to "get to heaven" on their own faith. NOT to have to be married to a "priesthood holder". God is in control of all things, she will leave the LDS church and find her way to a relationship with the real Jesus. God bless her and anyone that follows her. "Knock and the door will be opened."

  • psyphile1 Cedar Hills, UT
    June 11, 2014 10:14 p.m.

    Among the many prizes found in the scriptures, I believe that few are better than that found in the Book of Mormon in 1 Nephi 8. It describes the journey we all make through life, the dangers and adversities that we face, and the ultimate goal we seek. These words are instructive: "And I also beheld a strait and narrow path, which came along by the rod of iron, even to the tree (of eternal life) . . ." These words were repeated a little over 600 years later by Jesus when He said, ". . . strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

    For those who accept this as the Church of Jesus Christ, complaints of its “narrow” views must be laid at the feet of its Founder.

    (Comment continued below)

  • psyphile1 Cedar Hills, UT
    June 11, 2014 10:20 p.m.

    (Comment continued from above)

    By definition - and literally, to give His gospel definition - Jesus's church must abide by clearly stated principles and practices, or it becomes diluted and loses its meaning, value, and distinctiveness. Those seeking a wider path where lines aren't so clearly drawn and changes are adopted based upon the culture's zeitgeist will continue to struggle here.

    The worth of each soul is great, and the potential loss of these two people is no small matter. Nor is the suffering of those who are confused or frustrated by the church's actions against their practices. I agree with expressions of mercy and kindness in this thread and, whether inside or outside the church, I hope all who are stirred up by these types of issues can ultimately find peace. We all need God’s help, for we all struggle with our own stuff.

  • Vgr Orem/Utah, UT
    June 11, 2014 10:23 p.m.

    What is unfortunate about John Dehlin is he was trying to open up a dialogue about the church's troubled past. The truth is, and honest Church historians will even confirm, is that Joseph Smith and his family did engage in treasure seeking activities. Joseph Smith was a treasure seer and the reality is there was a belief among treasure seers that native American guardian angels guarded their buried treasures. Joseph Smith stuck his head into a hat with peep stones at the bottom of the hat to locate treasures. What's troubling is this is also the method by which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. Also the church has never been that open about Joseph Smith's practice of polyandry, marrying other men's wives while the men were still alive. I am not advocating anti-Mormonism but the reality is many members are ignorant about these troubling issues. Hanns Mattson member of the third quorum of the seventy left the church over these troubling issues. I thank John Dehlin for opening up about these issues and wish the church was more open too. Please don't excommunicate John for being honest and open.

  • riverofsun St.George, Utah
    June 11, 2014 10:40 p.m.

    Never, ever been able to fathom the idea discussed here of individuals being "lost" if not belonging to LDS Church, or not following each and every single, solitary one of the laws of this religion.
    Lost? Really?
    How many good, decent, honest, family oriented people who simply are just not interested in the LDS faith are now lost? One cannot express concerns about questions that may be difficult to understand or get answers about? They are then "Lost"?
    Does no one in the Mormon Church understand how outrageous this sounds to the rest of the world.
    Commenters have mentioned "LDS elitist". Certainly sounds that way.
    This "lost" principal is one "tenet" from a Mormon God that the LDS must have totally misunderstood or misinterpreted.

  • Black37 Kaysville, UT
    June 11, 2014 10:46 p.m.

    It is truly a tragedy if John Dehlin is excommunicated. If you did a poll of all LDS members and looked at many doctorine a of the church, I am sure that 90% of church members do not agree with one piece of doctrine or another. How could you not? There is some really wacky stuff we believe in, past and present.

    Dehlin gives hope that you can somehow stay in the church whether you believe every last piece of the craziness or not. I love the church, I love the culture and teachings, leaders etc.

    Big mistake to let him go! He does much more good than he does harm.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    June 11, 2014 10:46 p.m.

    @Ironhide – “The Savior could have given the priesthood to many women he encountered during His work on the earth but He didn't.”

    I guess you’re not familiar with the Nag Hammadi library or the Gospel of Mary Magdalene.

  • The Deuce Livermore, CA
    June 11, 2014 10:48 p.m.

    First of all, I am not of the LDS faith. This article is of interest as it seems to be a repeat of many such issues of our day. While I don't pretend to understand the teaching of the LDS faith, I have not encountered too many members who have a big issue with equality in this church. It seems to me that based upon the declaration that this is Heavenly Father's church, should this group first take this issue up with the one whose church it is rather than continue to stir up problems? No one is asking you to stay a member or require that you do. Simply find a faith that aligns with what your current beliefs are. I also don't think that Christ changes his doctrine based on popular opinion or the current trends in society. From what I see, it is the individual who must come to Christ, his door is always open.

  • Danite Salt Lake City, UT
    June 11, 2014 10:51 p.m.

    Typically I would never feel comfortable talking about an upcoming disciplinary council for someone, particularly someone I don't know: but, when the individual takes her situation to a national newspaper, they've opened the door for discussion and criticism.

    These sensitive and deeply personal issues should be kept sensitive and personal. To flaunt her disciplinary council summons publicly speaks volumes of where she stands. May The Lord bless her with wisdom and understanding, and fast!

  • The Wraith Kaysville, UT
    June 11, 2014 10:51 p.m.

    Oh it has Chris. There is a feeling one gets when leaving falsehoods and myths behind that cannot be described. I can honestly say that I am happier now than I ever was as a member. My only real regret was not doing it sooner. I look back on all those nights I spent begging and pleading for some kind on answer from above. I look back in sorrow at the years I spent sincerely and honestly searching for the kind of experience I had been promised by the religion of my youth only to be let down every time.

    One of the things I've discovered after having left the LDS Church is that almost everyone I've met who has also left did so not because we were offended or hurt or wanted to sin. But simply because we learned it wasn't true. I know that's hard for some people to believe, I know from experience that members need to believe we left because we did something wrong. In truth we have left because we simply found the truth.

  • 79Ute Orange County, CA
    June 11, 2014 11:01 p.m.

    John Dehlin didn't raise any new issues. The issues he addressed have been raised for over 100 years.

    If you've listened to his podcasts, as I have, so I would know something about what his issues are, you'd realize that he's not just raising questions or expressing concerns.

    Same thing with Kate Kelly. She wasn't just asking questions and raising her concerns. Her questions were asked and answered. She didn't like the answer so she led a protest against the Church leadership. Twice she was insisted on making a public demonstration at Temple Square. This isn't how people with questions raise them if they are just questioning - this is how people with an agenda protest to bring publicity to their agenda. Rather than trying to seek light and knowledge, she tried at two General Conferences to put the Church in a negative light, She knew very well what she was doing.

    (Sh)e that troubleth (her) own house shall inherit the wind...

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    June 11, 2014 11:06 p.m.

    I’ve sometimes wondered if the Bible and many subsequent events in the churches since then is simply a history of God trying to separate the sheep from true human beings (i.e., people of strong moral character willing to do what’s right in the face of extreme conformist pressure and even testing commands from God himself).

    If so, with few exceptions (e.g., Jesus) it is a history of failing sheep (starting with Abraham) who put blind faith & obedience above moral righteousness.

  • JJHawk Antioch, CA
    June 11, 2014 11:42 p.m.

    All I can say is that when African American men wanted the priesthood, their leaders seemed just as radical. I want to know the difference between then and now.

    These two people have kept thousands and thousands of members in the church. They were the voice so many needed. Not because they and the countless members doubt God, but because they have so much love for God that they can't leave the church even when it would be so much easier to do so.

    Talk to them. They're just people with questions. Why did their answer have to be so harsh?

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    June 11, 2014 11:49 p.m.

    truth in all its forms

    They aren't protesting a key doctrine. Women gave blessings by the laying on the hands and held the priesthood in the 1800's, though they may not have called it priesthood. So no, these women aren't way off of base in their requests. Plus, doctrine isn't in stone. The church has not only changed 'policies' but also has changed 'doctrines' many times due to popular consent. Why are they being criticized for sharing there views on the matter? Church discipline for disagreeing with a church doctrine? Really? What a sad time.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    June 11, 2014 11:53 p.m.

    dwidenhouse

    Why are you sad that they lost their testimonies? It happens. What if it isn't true, would you still be sad they lost their testimonies? Many who separate from the cloud of Mormonism go on to live happy, rich, fulfilling lives. I know, I am one of them.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    June 11, 2014 11:57 p.m.

    higv

    Christ doesn't run the church. People run the church. The sooner you understand this, the better.

  • lollyclk Bloomfield, NM
    June 12, 2014 12:13 a.m.

    For those who are unfamiliar with the church, I hope the following analogy helps you understand. As a child, when I begged or whined in the grocery store, demanding a treat, my mother calmly counseled me that I could not have it, no matter many times I asked or how loud I yelled. If I continued, she said we would go home and I would not be allowed to come back to the store with her. My mother left the store without groceries because of my behavior. My mom loved me enough to give me the ability to make choices about my behavior. She also loved me enough to discipline me when I needed it. She loved me enough to give me the opportunity to try again.

    Members of the Ordain Women movement are loved, prayed for, not excluded. However, there comes a point when we cannot be together for our mutual benefit. We have reached that point. I pray for those struggling to know their purpose on earth and the service they can give to others will find the answers they are looking for. I wish them the best of luck and I hope they find happiness and fulfillment.

  • RedneckLefty St. George, UT
    June 12, 2014 12:15 a.m.

    It's distasteful to hear people crowing self-righteously here. If you really believe in the Church, you should recognize that this is sad and tragic; if you take joy in it, you should be ashamed of yourself.

    Also, just for some perspective: someone was excommunicated for the Church for pushing for ordination of black men just six months before black men were given the priesthood.

  • 32843 PROVO, UT
    June 12, 2014 12:47 a.m.

    Tyler D. There are 10 pages missing from the Gospel of Mary, six of which are the first six pages making it difficult for the book to maintain any coherent doctrine. AS for the Nag Hammadi codices, there are 13 leather-bound volumes dated to the mid-fourth century, which is around the same time they were deemed heretical and banned by early church authorities. The vast majority of the scrolls in the Nag Hammadi library represent the writings of what was/is known as Christian Gnosticism. The early church fathers were nearly unanimous in recognizing these Gnostic scrolls as containing false doctrines about Jesus Christ, salvation, God, and other crucial Christian truths. There are countless contradictions between the Nag Hammadi library and the Bible.

    Just because something is old and dusty doesn't make the doctrine found in it true. Like with anything else you read or are told its best to let the Spirit of Christ guide you and not just accept it as being true because you read it in an old book or because you want it to be true.

  • wrz Phoenix, AZ
    June 12, 2014 1:07 a.m.

    mostlygizzards:
    "I'm sad today. This is not what Christ would have done."

    Perhaps He'd drive them out with a whip... like he did the money changers from the Temple back in the day.

    SLCPorter:
    "Making a martyr out of the leader of an organization will only galvanize and mobilize the followers..."

    If you leave a cancer in the body untreated it will eventually destroy the body.

    Craig Clark:
    "If expressing independent views is cause for disciplinary action, then the LDS Church still has a lot of maturing to do before it’s a religion for adults."

    I think the expression is: 'Suffer little children to come unto Me for such is the kingdom of heaven.'

    michael.jensen369:
    "It is about asking inspired questions."

    What's an inspired question?

    I know what sincere questions are but not inspired questions.

    Vgr:
    "...is that Joseph Smith and his family did engage in treasure seeking activities."

    Smith never claimed to be perfect. In fact, he says he was left with all kinds of temptations, frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth and foibles of human nature...

  • Neanderthal Phoenix, AZ
    June 12, 2014 1:12 a.m.

    The Wraith:
    "In truth we have left because we simply found the truth."

    What truth? That God does not exist? That there is no afterlife?

    Please elucidate.

  • JohnCBennett Polk City, Iowa
    June 12, 2014 1:18 a.m.

    What is a Priestess? Who performs initiatories for women and with what power? How does a man receive the second annointing? If you think women have never held the priesthood and never will you understand neither church history nor the restoration.

  • LittleStream Carson City, NV
    June 12, 2014 5:47 a.m.

    This is so sad! At a time when members should stand united against Satan and the evil in the world, this is what she decides to take a stand on? I hope she wasn't surprised that she is now facing a hearing. I stand with the church on this one! She shares the priesthood she is protesting about - every time she has a priesthood blessing - every time she takes sacrament - every time she attends the temple (assuming she has a temple recommend) I would be curious to know why she thinks she needs more priesthood power? Wrong time in these Latter Days to be fighting among ourselves.

  • Lilalips Attleboro, MA
    June 12, 2014 6:11 a.m.

    On one hand I understand the reason why Kate Kelly wants to have the right to officiate in priesthood ordinances. I don't believe women need that right but I do think that we need more women in Church leadership. A quick study of scriptural history would show that women can lead, even be judges in Israel, and not be officially ordained to have priesthood.

    She was a little "in your face" with her tactics. But how else do you get the Church's attention? How else does change happen? The brethren never came out with a definitive statement saying that they had asked God on the subject and he said, "…..". That's what they were/are asking for.

  • baddog Cedar Rapids, IA
    June 12, 2014 6:20 a.m.

    We might use the analogy of the blind leading the blind, except the two members involved appear to choose to be blind as do those being led.

    I have had a simple process over the years: I hear a point of doctrine. I try to live it and as I live it I work to understand why it is a "good seed" so I won't cast it out over some petty personal position.

    Obviously, the two situations discussed herein appear completely different on the surface but are not. No matter the good intentions, the way those intentions are put into action is more important than what many people understand.

  • Mormon & Proud united kingdom, 00
    June 12, 2014 6:23 a.m.

    Its not one size fits all with faith, beliefs and religion, I feel sorry for anyone that feels the need to even try! I'm not sure why these people chose a venture like this other than for attention...If they really don't accept the doctrine, they should leave it to those who do and find something they do believe in!

  • kolob1 sandy, UT
    June 12, 2014 6:25 a.m.

    "To end the probation, Wheatley said Kelly would, among other things, need to take down the Ordain Women website and disassociate herself from the group." Maybe she could call Mark Shurtleff for some help.
    Another commenter:" Some people feel that they can oppose an organization, work against its purposes, and try to influence others to think and act against the organization, and remain a member of the organization. Can you imagine behaving in such a way at your employment?" YES I can ! I imagine it every time I read the history of my country and how George Washington, a loyal member of the King's army would dare challenge his King and build a nation. Just imagine that!! The Church is not an Democracy and neither is Utah. Don't need to imagine that. HB 220

  • financenco Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2014 6:40 a.m.

    These people seem to think they are smarter then God is. And when that happens, they stop studying scripture, stop listening to church leaders, and then fall away, because they think they know a better way to believe, then what the Lord has taught. And if they hold callings maybe, that can negatively affect a person's testimony, then that can be a problem, and should be dealt with. These steps the church does, isn't meant to be done on public airwaves, for a good reason. It is a private matter.

  • Lilalips Attleboro, MA
    June 12, 2014 6:41 a.m.

    Dehlin says in his own writing on his website that he doesn't believe in the fundamentals of the L.D.S. faith, the gospel of Jesus Christ, as restored by Joseph Smith. He says he is trying to reverse the damage. Does he have any idea of how the gospel helps to change people for the better who would be so much more damaged without it?

  • happy2BGrandma Pleasant Grove, UT
    June 12, 2014 6:47 a.m.

    These two people have questions about the doctrines of the church. Where they step over the line is when they feel they are the ones who have the stewardship to change doctrine. Changes to doctrine come in order to those that have the stewardship. The best example of this was when Pres. Kimball prayed and inquired of the Lord regarding the inclusion of all worthy members to enjoy the blessings of the temple. This was his stewardship. Having questions and jumping up to, "I know better than those that have the stewardship," is not part and parcel of being true to oneself. This is the seriousness of their misdirection. This is, and always has been grounds for excommunication. Not in asking the question, but in the presumption that you, not the prophet, are called to receive sacred revelations. Being true to oneself includes the ability to listen to the promptings that come and making sure their personal agenda doesn't color or interfere with those promptings.

  • scwoz gambier, oh
    June 12, 2014 6:50 a.m.

    Doctrine and Covenants 86:3 And after they have fallen asleep the great persecutor of the church, the apostate, the whore, even Babylon, that maketh all nations to drink of her cup, in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reign—behold he soweth the tares; wherefore, the tares choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness. She is a weed, a tare, and will choke the wheat or the truth with her constant feeding on the same ground as those seeking nourishment (the truth around her.) "Sisters, regardless of your age; please understand all that you are and must be, all that you were prepared to be in the royal courts on high by God Himself. May we use with gratitude the priceless gifts we have been given for the lifting if mankind to higher thinking and nobler aspirations..." Margaret Nadauld Young Women’s President October 2000 General Conference.

  • UT Brit London, England
    June 12, 2014 7:01 a.m.

    John Dehlin has helped people stay in the church, if he goes no doubt others will follow.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2014 7:11 a.m.

    I tire of people who stage manage their own martyrdom in order to smokescreen their perpetration.

    Why do these people belong to a church they do not believe? (other than to try to gain the faux power of victimhood) Stop playing victim, grow up, make your own choice and live with it

  • higv Dietrich, ID
    June 12, 2014 7:13 a.m.

    Church leaders do there best to keep discipline confidential so except for maybe a reason announcing the necessity of the church discipline the media will mostly hear from the side of the people facing discipline. The church leaders usually try to keep discipline as private as possible. Though it does get around sometimes and there are people in positions that need to know about it.

  • Cinci Man FT MITCHELL, KY
    June 12, 2014 7:13 a.m.

    I cannot help but comment about Dehlin's misguided rant about the City Creek Mall. His writing is wrong on so many levels. He accused church leaders of declaring that God directed them to build a mall instead of channeling those funds to the poor. The fact is that the mall provides thousands of jobs for generations that affects the economy that even positively affects many more thousands, perhaps tens of thousands. My wife and I once had to decide how best to help a son provide for his family. We could either give them money continually, or create a business opportunity that would provide 'fishing' rather than 'fish'. We chose the 'fishing' and now they are self sufficient and there is no more draw on us. No tithing funds were used for City Creek. Dehlin doesn't seek to understand. He chooses to disagree and make public his refusal to understand. He publicly criticizes in order to embarrass and pressure church leaders to do something different than their years of wisdom leads them. He provides a public forum for ridicule of church leaders.

  • Eddie Syracuse, UT
    June 12, 2014 7:25 a.m.

    Having been on many disciplinary councils all I can do is shake my head and remember all the things that I will take to my grave without revealing anything. There are SO many things that others just don't know about regarding the persons life and actions. You must remember that most of the time you hear about things from ONE side. I will leave all this to the hands of the respective Bishops and Stake Presidents. The power of the Spirit that they have comes from a source that is not their own. Truth is Knowledge of things as they are, as they were and as they are to come. All this other stuff is just speculation.

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    June 12, 2014 7:28 a.m.

    Redneck Lefty: You make a point perfectly although probably not the one you intended. The question of blacks and the priesthood had been on the minds of church leaders for several years before the proclamation. If someone was excommunicated six months prior, the questioning or doctrinal differences were not the problem. The attitude and behavior of the questioner must have led to his discipline.

    All: I'm all about doctrine. I love studying doctrine. I've had tons of questions about doctrine and still have some. But doctrine was never the source of my testimony. My testimony is rooted in spiritual experiences, not just once but continually over the past 40+ years (I'm now 60 years old). I always felt if someone could argue me into the church, someone else could just as easily argue me out of it. Doctrine only supplements what I already know to be true through the power of the Spirit.

    Anybody who has a testimony rooted in doctrine instead of the spirit is missing the real flowing power of the church and gospel. In the words of Truman Madsen, they are not really IN the church regardless of their geography on Sundays.

  • conservative and proud Orem, UT
    June 12, 2014 7:36 a.m.

    Why does anyone want to be a member of any entity it opposes? This is simply for publicity and to lead others astray. there were many like this in the Book of Mormon. They received the consequences of their actions, as are these two. Wish them well in their endeavors, however, they must go elsewhere as they are apostates.

  • Danite Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2014 7:49 a.m.

    @John C Bennett,

    Your name betrays you. Obviously you take sacred truths and apply them where they do not apply. If you've read Elder Oaks' talk from General Conference you'd know better.

  • Flashback Kearns, UT
    June 12, 2014 8:09 a.m.

    Wraith, what do you say to those like me who do know that the church is true and are perfectly happy living by it's precepts? I've had many spiritual witnesses of the truth of the Church. Do you just say that I'm deluded? I've had too many experiences that lead me in the direction that I have gone. Maybe it's just just psychological effect, eh?

    I live by 2 Nephi 31:19- 19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

    In other words you can't be complacent. Of course in your case, if you are looking for negative, you'll find it.

  • UT Brit London, England
    June 12, 2014 8:21 a.m.

    @Cinci Man

    Dehlin wasnt the only one who has troubles with the church building a mall. Yes it creates jobs in the US, but when it comes to building a hospital or a school in a disadvantaged country or a mall to sell luxury goods I am pretty sure which one Jesus would do.

  • homeoccsg Plano, TX
    June 12, 2014 8:23 a.m.

    John Dehlin and his Mormon Stories was a huge help to me during a particularly painful time when I could not get answers from my Bishop or Church Headquarters about church history. I could have been excommunitcated for asking questions about church "doctrine" and history. The Mormon Church is on a slippery slope when it comes to their stance on what marriage is or is not whether that be opposite sex or same sex because of their past with "Celestial Marriage" or what the world perceives as "Polygamy" and its dark history.

    As far as the priesthood goes, Blacks were not allowed until 1978. The church came out recently saying it was a ban on Blacks. I wonder if the Brazil Temple being built at that time with a large number of the congregation being from black ancestry helped with that revelation.

    Hopefully the Mormon Church will look long and hard at their position or those with thinking minds will be leaving by the droves because a temple attending Latter-Day-Saint promises all their time, talents and everything they have to the Church. That's a lot to ask when there are so many skeletons in the proverbial closet!!!

  • chazkron Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2014 8:24 a.m.

    This isn't the first issue that will cause members to sift themselves out of the LDS Church. And it isn't going to be the last. It doesn't matter if this discipline galvanizes others. Every one of them is going to choose individually what they want the most.

  • Bdamajd Centerville, UT
    June 12, 2014 8:31 a.m.

    This reminds me of the students who go to BYU and complain about the rules. If you don't like the rules at BYU,simply go to another school. If you qualify for BYU, you most likely qualify for almost any school in the nation. If you don't like what the church teaches, and if you are really "being true to yourself", you should simply attend another church that allows you to be "true to yourself".The LDS Church is not forcing anyone to become and/or remain members. What about the LDS football player who is going to Notre Dame (A Catholic School)? You can bet that if he doesn't obey the School's Rules, he will be asked to attend another University. If these people who are protesting against the church's Doctrine, are truly sincere, they will ask their Heavenly Father what is right and get their own answer. Perhaps they already have. It is not mine to judge.

  • hockeymom Highland, UT
    June 12, 2014 8:31 a.m.

    @Craig Clark
    How naive of you. Ms. Kelly did so much more than express her independent view, and she knows it. All she can do now is try and save face by feigning "all I did was...". When you put up a website, go on radio talk shows, invite women to join in the "discussion", organize your "troops" to march on Temple Square and invite the media to record it all, actively coming to conference and ask for entrance when you have been asked in a formal letter by the church not to, there is no question this is so much more than expressing an independent view. I express an independent view when I share my thoughts with my friends, family and even comment in Sunday School and Relief Society. She has gone way above and beyond merely expression. She has crossed the line time and again.

  • cocosweet Sandy, UT
    June 12, 2014 8:35 a.m.

    For a church not to allow it's members to question is a blow to all thinking members. For a church to throw out someone who ask for changes in church doctrine is foolish. Perhaps it is time to reconsider my belief system, or least involvement in the church. How can I support a church that may throw me out if I question or doubt the verity of policy and doctrine?

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    June 12, 2014 8:37 a.m.

    No one should be surprised by the action of the Church. I don't think it is necessary, but I am not surprised. I do feel, however, that it is a shame that the Church can't look at the issues with a fresh set of eyes. Age old traditions should not necessarily be called doctrine. I know of no valid reason other than tradition why women should not have the exact same privileges as men. Joseph Smith was a revolutionary of sorts. But the Church he founded has become as bound by tradition as the Catholic Church.

  • dmcvey Los Angeles, CA
    June 12, 2014 8:37 a.m.

    We knew this was coming. It's happened before. Any religion can only tolerate so much free speech.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    June 12, 2014 8:39 a.m.

    A while back, Mormons were taking pride in the ballyhooed ‘Mormon moment’ and all the ‘I am a Mormon’ promo ads that ran on TV. This proselytizing church puts its whole heart into placing the sunny side of Mormonism on public display. That may now be offset to some degree as the public gets a grim glimpse of the dark side of the religion.

  • Balan South Jordan, Utah
    June 12, 2014 8:50 a.m.

    I quite frankly have no idea who John Dehlin is. However, when I hear comments such as "John Dehlin has helped people stay in the church, if he goes no doubt others will follow", it makes me wonder who these people are really converted to - Jesus Christ or John Dehlin.

    Good for him for helping people stay in the Church. But if these people become followers of John Dehlin and not of the Savior, there is a problem. This is not the church of John Dehlin.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    June 12, 2014 8:52 a.m.

    @32843 – “Just because something is old and dusty doesn't make the doctrine found in it true.”

    An excellent point… applied equally well to any old book (Bible included).

    But you’re a bit off base on the gnostic texts. Just because the codex’s found in Egypt were 4th century copies doesn’t mean the original texts were – and you do know that the vast majority of Bible fragments (which are all copies of copies of copies) are dated around the 4th century or later, yes?

    Most scholars agree that the Gospel of Thomas was written as early as 40 AD, prior to any other gospel. And it was considered a strong candidate for inclusion until well into the 3rd century when orthodoxy became ascendant (and was canonized at the Council of Nicea).

    So who’s to say the Gnostics had it wrong, the Orthodox Church? Of course they thought so… doesn’t mean they were right, just victorious.

    Gnostic texts portray a Jesus much closer to an enlightened eastern sage than a deity with magic powers. Whether or not they were right it certainly sounds a million times more plausible.

  • holy moly Herrmian, UT
    June 12, 2014 8:54 a.m.

    10% of Mormon women surveyed support women being ordained to the priesthood.
    48% of Mormon men support women being ordained to the priesthood.

    If it were up to me (and it is obviously not) I would say let them have the priesthood. There is nothing inherently wrong with it and previous church doctrine I believe has been incorrect (African-Americans and the Priesthood for example).

    Catholic leaders teach that their leaders are infallible and their people do not believe them. Mormon leaders teach their leaders are fallible and their people do not believe them.

  • Mc West Jordan, UT
    June 12, 2014 8:54 a.m.

    UT Brit
    John Dehlin may have helped some people stay in the church, but not as strong faithful members. I believe that he has helped far more people feel ok about doubting their faith. He draws in questioning members who don't understand church doctrine and he validates their doubts. He does the opposite of what Pres. Uchtdorf counseled, "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith." How do I know this? Our son was led right out of the church through Mormon Stories podcasts. They have groups that meet all over the country and they all revere John Dehlin more than Pres. Monson.

    Having questions is not a problem. It's thinking you have the answers and need to counsel the Prophet that leads to church discipline. Even then it usually only happens when you seek to influence others. If John Dehlin loses his membership that will at least show those who seek answers online that if they want to stay in the church, his website is not the place to find the answers.

  • Steve C. Warren WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    June 12, 2014 9:01 a.m.

    Although as an active LDS person I don't favor giving women the priesthood, I do favor a much stronger voice for women in the Church, but that's not the point. The point is this: Because the Church prevented blacks from having the priesthood for more than a century, claiming it was doctrinal, but then reversed course and said it was never a doctrine and that the practice was wrong, the Church can never again expect silence from members who oppose the Church's position about who should be given the priesthood. It has simply forfeited that right.

  • 81Ute Central, UT
    June 12, 2014 9:06 a.m.

    By turning these notices into a public relations festival one can easily conclude where their heart lies.

  • Sneaky Jimmy Bay Area, CA
    June 12, 2014 9:17 a.m.

    @patriot: In case you didn't realize this the LDS church is very much a political organization and has inserted itself into many political issues and continues to do so.

    It makes me very sad to read the thoughts of so many people that feel its proper to get rid of anyone that may ask the wrong kind of questions. The LDS church by it's own admission has been completely wrong on points of doctrine (see essay on blacks and the priesthood @lds.org). Maybe it's time to try and love people back instead of force people back. After all, if you have the truth what is there to fear?

  • Clifton Palmer McLendon Gilmer, TX
    June 12, 2014 9:17 a.m.

    "Activist" is just the bleeding-heart knee-jerk liberals' word for "whiny malcontent."

  • USAlover Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2014 9:20 a.m.

    Do I have questions, even doubts about Church policy and practices? Yes. Most members won't live their life and not encounter questions and doubts.

    Do I discuss these questions/doubts among trusted close personal friends who are sincere believers in the Church? Yes.

    Am I treated with compassion and love and acceptance when I do talk about these things with close personal friends and advisors? Yes.

    Do I create public forums for debate or organize rallies and protests, risking damage to other's people's faith and disrupting Church meetings? No way.

    Please tell me you see the difference.

  • ThornBirds St.George, Utah
    June 12, 2014 9:42 a.m.

    As these comments continue, little nuances make for better understanding.
    Royal court on high?
    Only true Church?
    Nobler?
    Back to the old "we are #!, and better than the rest of you".
    That D&C has caused much confusion.
    My own children now tell me that there is nothing discussed about Plural Marriage in the D&C. BTW, we have the older versions in our home.
    Is much of the past in the LDS Church kept from new members and the younger generation? Why?
    No wonder the distrust and anger towards Mr. Dehlin, and the ladies who wonder why they are not good enough to take on more in the LDS Church.
    Satan is driving them? Come on!

  • grandmagreat Lake Havasu City, AZ
    June 12, 2014 9:45 a.m.

    I am an 87 year old member of the LDS Church. My ancestors joined the church in Nauvoo, they were driven out of their homes by people who just would not give them the right to live their religion as they wanted. My advise to those that want to change the doctrine of the church, had better get down on their knees and get some help. Also to admit to themselves that they are NOT following the doctrine of the Church, and that if they loose their membership because of their actions, they will loose the most valuable thing they have, even if they have all the money and worldly things they need. I can testify that Thomas S Monson is truly a living prophet, and we need to follow him.

  • abtrumpet Provo, UT
    June 12, 2014 9:47 a.m.

    Just FYI, nobody is trying to make them go away. The Church has to distance itself from certain people to show the membership and the world what it tolerates and what it doesn't.

  • lixircat Indianapolis, IN
    June 12, 2014 9:47 a.m.

    Anyone who has gone through a temple recommend interview should not be surprised by this.

    Those people commenting that these people are being reprimanded for just "asking questions" are ridiculous. Are all 150 women who tried to get in to Priesthood session being disciplined? No, the head of the organization is.
    Try this experiment. Go "ask" your bishop if you can have you 6 year old baptized. He'll say no, but I can promise that you will not be called in for disciplinary action. People "ask" difficult questions all the time in sunday school every week. No one gets a slap on the wrist for it. The difference with the ordain women group is that they are actively trying to lead people astray. She is pretty much a tame version of Sherem, Nehor, and Korihor.

  • JKLARSEN Phoenix, AZ
    June 12, 2014 10:09 a.m.

    I personally don't feel sorry for them facing Church Discipline, I am not a member of the LDS Church. But the Church has right to deal with people who make protests the Church Doesn't believe in or agree with, they have been warned Im sure many time and they still keep speaking out. You have been warned, now deal with the consequences, if their Church membership means anything to them at all they wouldn't be protesting these issues. Go with the Faith, every Church Including the LDS faith has its flaws in its Leaders and Members when to comes to church discipline. Not every outcome is the same or even relevant to the same situation because of the different leaders in the Church. You have the Leaders in salt lake telling you to stop and you don't, all I see is someone who wants the Publicity more than their membership…..

  • UT Brit London, England
    June 12, 2014 10:12 a.m.

    @Mc

    Sorry there are some legitimate problems with some of the churches doctrines and early history, none of which has been properly explained or in some instances not told to the general membership. Our lesson manuals paint a very rosy picture of our history, people with critical thinking skills struggle greatly with some of these questions. John Dehlin tried to help people stay in the church, when you kick him out what is the logical course of events?

    "if they want to stay in the church"

    Sorry, some of the questions I have had have not been explained by Bishops, stake presidents and general authorities. Give me the answers and I wont try to seek them in other forums. Kicking people out trying to stay in the church is not a good thing.

    The church opened up a huge can of worms by saying the prophets can and have in the past taught false doctrine. Anything is now open to questioning.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    June 12, 2014 10:32 a.m.

    Bow to the King or have your head cut off , the more things change the more the stay the same

  • Lionheart West Jordan, Ut
    June 12, 2014 10:35 a.m.

    It is surprising that Kate feels willing to fight for membership in an organization that she doe not truly understand or support. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is based on revelation, a church directed by divine guidance. If I find I don't totally agree with something in God's church I just remind myself, "I must not be seeing the whole picture because I know where it comes from so it is me who has to seek to understand." I would be silly to try to change what God has decreed as His will and His doctrine. To do so seems to indicate a lack of testimony in the divinity of the Church. There are churches whose doctrine is decided by debate and discussion but the LDS Church is not one of them.

  • Red San Antonia, TX
    June 12, 2014 10:41 a.m.

    It is never too late to stop heading toward the cliff and change direction.

    think about it.

  • Vegas Las Vegas, NV
    June 12, 2014 10:47 a.m.

    The most troubling aspect about this is it makes people like me question whether I have a place in the church. My beliefs are similar to John Dehlin's, and although I don't have a large forum to express those beliefs, I do share my thoughts and feelings with friends and family. Based on the Church's actions this week, I am discouraged and deeply saddened that the Church doesn't want people like me in the fold.

  • ldsironrodder Mount Vernon, OH
    June 12, 2014 10:57 a.m.

    Although it is quite saddening, many members of the Lord's Church are throwing themselves out of the Lord's Church just as He said they would. Church disciplinary proceedings are just as sacredly conducted as are interviews of a more positive circumstance. However, when you seek the opinions and commentary from the world, you have negated the sacredness of the action. Please, subject yourself to the will of the Lord in humble prayer and trust His Holy Prophet to seek guidance through the Holy Ghost not The New York Times.

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    June 12, 2014 11:11 a.m.

    To all who are posting as a "thinking members of the Church":

    I left the Church after high school. I lived a lot of my life in opposition to the LDS Church and its teachings. 8 years ago I returned.

    I have seen a lot of anti-Mormon propoganda and I have an even stronger testimony as a result. I have not shied away or kept myself sheltered. When I learn of something I question, I research it and also pray. How many of you "thinking members" have sought guidance from your Father in Heaven in these matters?

    It is great that you are "thinking members", apparently as opposed to us who are "sheep" since we do follow our Prophet.

    Let me ask: Are you thinking objectively, or looking for a pre-conceived answer? You will find both in any history, especially in LDS history.

    Christ did not command us to "think"; He commanded us to "Follow"...

  • Seldom Seen Smith Orcutt, CA
    June 12, 2014 11:12 a.m.

    If you don't believe LDS, don't do LDS.

  • pburt Logan, UT
    June 12, 2014 11:28 a.m.

    This makes me sad, and it is not caused by Kate Kelly or John Dehlin. First, Kelly's bishop calls a disciplinary council just two weeks after her stake president assures her she is just on "informal probation" and that she has time to sort things out. Her every word promotes the church, doesn't tear it down. Discussing and disagreeing as the doctrine evolves used to be a cherished tradition in the church. Recent leaders seem much less willing to discuss and examine varying views. Strange in view of the recent official statements that church practices concerning blacks and the priesthood were changed by prejudices and societal pressures.

    And Dehlin has doubts and discusses them, but WANTS to be in the church.

    Another thing saddening me is the judging and condemning of Kelly and Dehlin among the faithful. Not at all like Christ. Christ didn't even reject Judas, didn't condemn or excommunicate him. Why are so many people so happy to see "these people" "get what they deserve"? If they want to ask the church to give women the priesthood, why should that bother you so much, especially when it is seeking something GOOD.

  • UT Brit London, England
    June 12, 2014 11:35 a.m.

    RedWings

    Some of us have been doing mental gymnastics for years trying to justify some of things in the church. I hear Elder Oakes saying not to criticise a leader of the church even if they are wrong and being told to doubt my doubts. Well I have been trying to doubt my doubts for a couple of decades now but things just keep stacking up. I think the priesthood essay was the straw that broke the camels back.
    Yes if you follow and never question anything that's not a good thing. Many people in history have committed atrocities using that same mindset.

    Its very difficult when you have prophets of the only true and living church, the ones who are supposed to have a direct line to God, teach false doctrine (something that is supposed to be impossible) for over a century and then say "well that was just their opinion" after. What are you supposed to do when you can never be sure if the prophets are teaching correct principles?

  • dalefarr South Jordan, Utah
    June 12, 2014 11:40 a.m.

    I don't see a reason to hurt people by removing them from a Church they wish to remain in. Many revelations from the top are responsive the voices from the bottom.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    June 12, 2014 11:49 a.m.

    Commenters are saying to follow the prophet. Question: Where is the Prophet's voice on this? It kind of seems the bureaucracy and/or local leadership is driving this action, not the Prophet.

  • USAlover Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2014 11:58 a.m.

    Sometimes new Bishops and Stake Presidents like to flex their newfound muscles. Let's hope they read Section 121 and practice "righteous dominions".

  • Vegas Las Vegas, NV
    June 12, 2014 12:12 p.m.

    @Esquire,

    This isn't a local decision. Rock Waterman (another prominent blogger) was given a similar letter on the same day by a member of the seventy. I highly doubt this type of coordination is happenstance or occurred without the knowledge of the 12.

  • Fred Vader Oklahoma City, OK
    June 12, 2014 12:15 p.m.

    For all those believers wondering what Jesus would do in this situation, and believing that He would never cast people out for disobedience or arguing their own will, please keep in mind the following:

    1/3 of the host of heaven was cast out for following Lucifer, who thought he had the better plan at salvation....wouldn't he argue that he wanted to stay in heaven, he just didn't like how the plan of salvation was presented?

    Also consider the actual words of the Savior from Matthew 7:21-23...

    21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Sounds like all of us have the opportunity to stay, or, be cast out if we choose our own will over that of our Father in Heaven (yes, including me).

  • Hawkeye79 Iowa City, IA
    June 12, 2014 12:18 p.m.

    Here's hoping that these two make the changes necessary to retain a church membership that they claim is important to them. It takes a lot of humility for a person to recognize when he/she is in the wrong. They wouldn't be the first who failed to do so. Then again, they wouldn't be the first who succeeded in doing so either.

    Hopefully my perceptions wrong, but their decisions to A) make these private matters a public issue and B) pretend that the only thing they ever did was ask questions seem to indicate that they are having a difficult time recognizing the underlying problem. Leading protests and asking questions are very different approaches.

  • Filthy Kuffar Spanish Fork, UT
    June 12, 2014 12:27 p.m.

    The sifting has begun.

  • dustman Gallup, NM
    June 12, 2014 12:29 p.m.

    Are we sure that only men can have the priesthood is doctrine? What if its just a practice of the church as a whole based upon the thinking of times? When the priesthood was revealed, it was during a time when men were the cultural leaders of all sects.

    Maybe this is just like denial of the priesthood to African Americans. Does anyone else think that this doctrine/policy will change and the explanation will be that "it never was doctrine, but the practice of few, and we don't know why it was like that."

  • Socal Coug San Diego, CA
    June 12, 2014 12:33 p.m.

    "This is not what Christ would have done." (You're right, he would've acted swifter like in the Temple with the money changers)

    These are prime examples of becoming fixated on one or two things and let it destroy you. The counsel from Pres Uchtdorf to "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith" rings true.
    Extremism is dangerous in all its forms.

    The common theme here is that these people usually seek attention and power, as if every worthy cause calls for the press to cover it and the controversy to be out.
    A cry for help maybe? A listening ear is what they need. Can someone just give them a hug?

  • Sneaky Jimmy Bay Area, CA
    June 12, 2014 12:47 p.m.

    I've gone from saddened to downright frightened when reading the comments of the stalwart members of the "church". Here is what I've learned during my time on earth: Not one of your church leaders will judge you or save you or is responsible for you. It's up to each one of us to develop a relationship with God. I know beyond a "shadow of doubt" that the people running the church are wrong on certain issues but doing an unbelievably good job on most. I think it's up to me to help set things right. How much radicalism is enough? It took the threat of having BYU banned from participation in sports to finally get the church off the dime re priesthood for all. Please stop judging people that ask for change.

  • happy2bhere clearfield, UT
    June 12, 2014 12:58 p.m.

    Red Wings and Fred Vader

    I haven't read all of the 174 (at the time of my post) comments here. However, I do want to commend you on the most simple and profound point I've seen in all these discussions that happen regarding the LDS Church, both pro and con. To repeat, the commandment from Jesus is not to think, but to FOLLOW. That pretty much say is all. And to those who question that principle, look no further than a few posts down at what Fred Vader pointed out about how Jesus deals with people. The Lord can be pretty blunt, when necessary. Thanks to the both of you for reminding us all what it means to "Come Follow Me".

  • riverofsun St.George, Utah
    June 12, 2014 12:59 p.m.

    One should "not think, but follow"?
    Did God really say this?
    Any idea the kind of shape the world would be in if this was considered normal, rational behavior?

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    June 12, 2014 1:06 p.m.

    Flashback says:

    "Wraith, what do you say to those like me who do know that the church is true and are perfectly happy living by it's precepts? "

    Can I take a crack at this? I'd say you're lying to yourself. You BELIEVE. You do not "know", otherwise what need have you of faith?

    BTW: I've had just as many "spiritual witnesses" of the falsehood as you have had of the truth of your church.

    @Balan;

    It's not "the church of Thomas Monson and the apostles" either. It should be the church of the people.

    @Steve C. Warren;

    Goodness, I agree with you for a change.

    @Vegas;

    Thinking for oneself is not a church approved virtue. For example RedWings' comment: "Christ did not command us to "think"; He commanded us to "Follow"..."

    @LDS Members;

    Weren't the "scriptures" in the D&C the result of church members going to JS and asking questions?

  • Pops NORTH SALT LAKE, UT
    June 12, 2014 1:13 p.m.

    If we all followed Christ, the world would be in terrific shape.

  • xert Santa Monica, CA
    June 12, 2014 1:14 p.m.

    I think the poster on this thread, who see wisdom in the casting out of two of their own, should be complimented for the love and concern they show for one who sees things differently. One could almost feel the compassion for a fellow member seeping through the computer screen while reading their words of kindness and care.

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    June 12, 2014 1:21 p.m.

    UT Brit:

    I never said I did not question. I did question many things. I would bet I have seen all that you have, maybe more. But I refused to rely solely on my own opinion and intelligence. I prayed for understanding, and I received it. We are promised this in James 1:5.

    The priesthood essay is not an issue for me. I have heard for a long time that the prohibition on blacks holding the priesthood was never doctrinal. For the Church to put out an honest and unflinchng assessment of its own past does not negate everything else for me. Church leaders in the 19th century said the same things that were said in the US Congress at that time. Does that negate all that was done in Congress as well?

    I have never done "mental gymnastics". I wanted the truth, not my opinion of it. I am sorry that you cannot get around these things. I hope you will find peace....

  • wbl2745 Provo, UT
    June 12, 2014 1:22 p.m.

    It is curious to me that both of these disciplinary councils are happening near the same time. It makes me wonder if the real push for this isn't from someone higher up in the Church hierarchy.

  • Shooter_McGavin Las Vegas, NV
    June 12, 2014 1:26 p.m.

    "I plead with you to have the courage to make certain everyone included and feel LOVED and VALUED".

    - Thomas S. Monson

    Practice what you preach...

  • john d REXBURG, ID
    June 12, 2014 1:27 p.m.

    you can tell, these are the last days. ezra taff benson said there will be wolves in white sheep clothing in our mist. he also said before the lord show him self to the rest of the world, he will clean his house first and cleanse it. wheat and the tares. the faithful will stand.

  • casual observer Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2014 1:28 p.m.

    The solution is simple. If you have lost confidence in your religion's leader, found a new religion. That's what the Protestants did by starting their own churches and then they were able to call the shots. The are thousands of denominations so why not add one more.

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    June 12, 2014 1:29 p.m.

    Ranch:

    I think for myself. I look for spiritual confirmation of things I do not understand. I have read the anti-Mormon stuff and it is all smoke and mirrors.

    If you can provide a scripture where Christ said "think for yourself and then either follow me or don't", please do so.

    riverofsun:

    If we all followed God instead of our own selfish will, the world would me more peaceful, loving, and tolerant.

  • sid 6.7 Holladay, UT
    June 12, 2014 1:35 p.m.

    RE Patriot:

    I find this statement,

    "Washington DC model of doing things...use lawyers and the press to get what you want. That doesn't work with the Church. Sorry Kate...the Church is not a political organization caving in to political correctness."

    incredibly ironic since "using the press" and "lawyers" worked incredibly well for the Church during California's Prop 8 vote a few years back.

    Let's not fool ourselves Mr. Patriot as we all know the Church is far from not being a political organization.

  • Oh Really? HERRIMAN, UT
    June 12, 2014 1:41 p.m.

    @homeoccsg

    "John Dehlin and his Mormon Stories was a huge help to me during a particularly painful time when I could not get answers from my Bishop or Church Headquarters about church history. I could have been excommunitcated for asking questions about church "doctrine" and history."

    How do you know if you didn't ask? That is a fear/lie that keeps you from finding the truth about your questions, and the truth about how questions are treated.

    A) It is a myth that asking questions will get you excommunicated. Everyone has questions, and the person you ask may have already asked -- and found the answer to -- your questions.
    B) I've heard many of John's questions that he says the church hides from, and I'd heard all the questions -- and answers -- decades earlier, from very open, very orthodox, very public sources like BYU, Deseret Book, The Era, Ensign, etc. Just because you've never heard a question/answer doesn't mean it isn't readily available, likely from someone in your ward, stake, etc.

    I

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    June 12, 2014 1:53 p.m.

    @RedWings;

    Growing up, the ban on blacks in the priesthood certainly was taught as "doctrinal". You should go read the talks by James E. Talmage among others.

    If we all followed Jesus and did unto others, the world would certainly be a better place. Instead, we have a church disciplining others for asking hard questions.

    I've had my share of personal experiences and they've given me the opposite answers to the ones you've gotten. Were mine all from Satan then?

    Even Brigham Young told the members to "ask and question anything he said". ETB started the "follow or else..." movement.

  • Mikhail ALPINE, UT
    June 12, 2014 1:55 p.m.

    And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God.

    I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

  • Mikhail ALPINE, UT
    June 12, 2014 1:57 p.m.

    O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

  • Eliyahu Pleasant Grove, UT
    June 12, 2014 2:36 p.m.

    I'm appalled at the number of "good riddance" comments here. People seem to think that all that is needed is to get rid of two people and no one will ever question the status quo again. Do they really want a church where people remain silent out of fear?

    Being Jewish,, I come from a culture where it's not only acceptable, but expected, to question our leaders and argue with them if we think them wrong. For that matter, our ancestor Abraham argued with God and won the argument over how many righteous people were needed to save the cities of the plains. Accepting dissent and vigorous debate is one of the things that helped us survive for so many thousands of years.

    For a people who claim to believe in ongoing revelation and prophecy, though, it's surprising that the LDS folks are as adamant in insisting that the male-only priesthood will never change as they were in insisting that polygamy will remain forever and that Blacks will never receive the priesthood.

  • Rustymommy Clovis, NM
    June 12, 2014 2:47 p.m.

    In Articles of Faith 11, Joseph Smith stated: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." If a person has serious complaints about lds doctrine, they should see this statement as an invitation. It is a person's privilege to worship as they wish, but not their prerogative to change church doctrine. If Mormonism doesn't satisfy a person's conscience, let that person worship how, where, or what they may in a church that meets their criteria. It will, however, be a challenge. Where will they find a church that supports the Book of Mormon and allows women to hold the priesthood? They can say they want to belong to the LDS church, but right now actions are speaking louder than words.

  • RBN Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2014 2:58 p.m.

    The problem with authenticity is that you can authenticate your way to Hades.

  • Sweet Ginger Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2014 3:06 p.m.

    Growing up LDS, I was always told that we must gain our own testimony of each principle of mormon doctrine. However, if your own testimony of a subject differs from that of the mormon church then they blame you and claim your wrong. It's a strange practice. Either you swallow the whole of mormon doctrine, leave the mormon church, or choose to ignore the parts that bother you. But there is no space in mormonism for "picking your truths". I've left the mormon church (very happily) but feel sad for those that have conflicted feelings over parts of the mormon church.

  • Fred Vader Oklahoma City, OK
    June 12, 2014 3:17 p.m.

    Good grief! To all those who keep saying they are being punished for asking questions, please re-read the article.

    No one is being punished for asking questions, whether they be hard or easy. My word, the whole reason we have the restoration of the Gospel is because Joseph Smith asked questions. Yes, most of those being very hard questions.

    Secondly, they are not being punished. (Not yet anyway.) They are being called into a council to answer questions on whether or not they, by their actions, are advocating for and/or leading others in the church astray.

    1. You can question all you want!

    2. You cannot go around teaching others in the church that your view is correct and the leaders of the church are wrong.

    If you are doing the first you are fine. If you are doing the second, you will be given an opportunity to explain, and if determined you are leading others astray, an opportunity to repent. Should you not repent, then you will be asked to leave.

    It isn't rocket science. After reading the above, those who are still advocating that these two are receiving punishment for the first, are intentionally being deceitful.

  • Tom Johnson Spanish Fork, UT
    June 12, 2014 3:41 p.m.

    Having followed the activities of Kate Kelley and John Dehlin for a couple of years, I have to agree that it is time for the Church to take action against these people who have promoted dissension, encouraged apostasy, and who are out of harmony with the teachings of the Church.

  • LivinLarge Bountiful, UT
    June 12, 2014 3:44 p.m.

    Kate Kelly and John Dehlin, sedition is a legitimate reason for convening a disciplinary council. My advice, keep an open mind, be respectful and be favorably responsive to the counsel you are about to receive from your priesthood leaders. The Church is not a democracy, it is a theocracy and Church leaders, both local and general are empowered to act according to the authority they possess. If you both want to retain your full-fellowship Church status, give heed to their counsel.

  • kitsutsuki South Jordan, Utah
    June 12, 2014 3:53 p.m.

    Many people are getting caught up on the "asking questions" issue, as if you can't question anything in the Church. That is a nutty - members ask easy and hard questions all of the time and never reprimanded for it. But this is a much bigger issue than simply "asking questions".

    The Ordain Women movement asked to attend General Priesthood Meeting in October 2013 and were told no. They asked a second time in April 2014 and were told no again - after being told to not "trespass" on Church grounds - which they ignored.

    President Oaks gave a masterful talk in General Conference on the topic of women and the priesthood, and they still refused to listen. They now appear as steadfast as ever to get the Church to change its position on women and the priesthood. So it is clear that this is not simply a matter of a question, but in reality it is all about getting the answer they want.

    I truly do hope that they get their act together before they do irreparable harm to their families and loved ones as well as to those that buy into their cause.

  • WJCoug South Jordan, Utah
    June 12, 2014 3:57 p.m.

    Sweet Ginger - so how do you suggest the church placates over 15 million members, all whom are different individuals with different needs, beliefs and personalities?

    If you believe this is the Church of Jesus Christ then the answer is simple. Otherwise you get frustrated with the church and its leaders believing that they refuse to appease your wishes.

  • coalesceus Santa Rosa, CA
    June 12, 2014 4:00 p.m.

    God may work in mysterious ways, but She sure nailed the timing on making polygamy illegal, and giving the priesthood to the blacks. She'll no doubt do it again with the 'women in the priesthood' and LGBT issues. All that's needed is a bit more time and more public outrage at the sexism and provincialism of the current doctrines, and a new revelation will occur - just in time to prevent serious damage to the tithing cash flow.

    Speaking as a recovering Mormon, I really don't understand why folks even bother with activism and attempts to change the church from within. It's tilting at windmills. The world needs thoughtful and intelligent activists to put their energies and passions where it can do some real good. Fighting this battle ain't it. Get out, and work for something that matters!

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    June 12, 2014 4:20 p.m.

    Ranch:

    I have not found anything in scripture that says worthy black males should not hold the Priesthood. There were a lot of things said by past leaders. I have not seen where they actually inquired of the Lord until Pres. Kimball did so. My dad raised me to believe that all are equal regardless of race. I remember he was joyful when the ban was lifted.

    We believe differently from each other. I respect your right to your beliefs. You have had a very different experience with the Church than I have. I have been spiritually strengthened along my path back over the past 8 years. I don't present to have a reason for it (let alone to presume that any experience you have had was from Satan).

    In the end, we will all find out what the whole truth is. Until then, I have peace with the life I am living. I hope you have the same peace in yours....

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2014 4:28 p.m.

    @LivinLarge
    "My advice, keep an open mind, be respectful and be favorably responsive to the counsel you are about to receive from your priesthood leaders"

    Kelly's ward waited until she moved thousands of miles away to convene this hearing; her Bishop refusing to transfer her records to the new ward. She said today that her parents had their temple recommends taken away. I find it difficult to expect any sort of fair hearing.

  • Mc West Jordan, UT
    June 12, 2014 4:44 p.m.

    Eliyahu
    Nobody ever insisted that blacks would never receive the priesthood. In fact, we were always told they would receive the priesthood in due time. We all knew it would happen and we rejoiced when the day came. It was never eternal doctrine that they couldn't have the priesthood. Deceased blacks were given all the temple ordinances, including the priesthood, before the ban was lifted. That tells any thinking member that the ban was simply a practice for this life that was never an eternal principle or doctrine.

    Women holding the priesthood is another matter. I don't think that God will change the very nature of His plan by giving women the priesthood, but if He does, it will come from the prophet, not from people who lack the faith to follow the prophet.

  • Snapdragon Midlothian, VA
    June 12, 2014 4:52 p.m.

    "I've never said anything against the leaders of the church. I've never said anything negative about any of the Lord's anointed. I've never taught any doctrines, let alone false doctrines."

    It is amazing that Ms. Kelly can say this, as her actions are leading the hearts of people away from the gospel all around her.

    I think she would be embarrassed if she saw things as they really are. This whole thing is a total waste of her talents.

  • cris Hamilton, IL
    June 12, 2014 6:07 p.m.

    It is better that one person should perish(excommunicated) than a nation should(church) dwindle in unbelief.
    If she is leading others astray she should be held accountable. It comes down to being obedient.
    The Lord will never allow his Prophet to lead the church astray. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and be obedient.

  • Beart SAINT LOUIS, MO
    June 12, 2014 6:09 p.m.

    Having been a member all my life, I have had issues from time to time with policies of the church, but neveer have I had reason to disagree with a doctrinal principel. I was baptozed as a child, but later in life was still able to decide for myself. Earlier comments validate my attitude that if we disagree, we either try to reconcile or seek spirituality elsewhere. If we truly believe that the LDS Church is what it purports to be, then our issues are not with the leaders, but rather with the Savior himself, and it is ti Him that we should submit our questions. If we are serious and not self-serving, we will get an answer that, if we cannot live with it, at least will help us to exercise our agency to exit, if that is the only alternative, we believe, to acceptance. I marvel at the number of church members who think they should be able to have it both ways.

  • TheProudDuck Newport Beach, CA
    June 12, 2014 6:42 p.m.

    Church members are free to ask all the questions they want. It's when the that the answers conclude they've gotten are are different from the answers they are supposed to get that the trouble starts.

    The difference between heresy and orthodoxy is about three decades at most these days. In any organization, it never pays to be too right too soon.

  • 32843 PROVO, UT
    June 12, 2014 6:52 p.m.

    @Tyler D

    All very good points. The Gospel of Thomas being sayings attributed to Christ, I personally find them inspiring and encourage others to read it.

    I couldn't agree with you more that it may only mean that the church fathers point of view was offended when they deemed the books in the Nag Hammadi library heretical, and may not mean the books in the Nag Hammadi are not the Word of God. I guess I am only really saying one must have the testimony of the Holy Ghost to help you differentiate between the books that contain truth and those that are false.

    In my original post, I was going to point out that the Apocalypse of Peter, Paul, James, etc. as well as the remaining 47 or so other books making up the Nag Hammadi library were forgeries... in that they weren't written by Peter, Paul or James, etc. Then I deleted my entire paragraph realizing that this same thing could be said about the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, etc. Back to my thought; one needs the guidance of the HG to help you determine what is true and what is false.

  • TheProudDuck Newport Beach, CA
    June 12, 2014 7:22 p.m.

    "Christ did not command us to "think"; He commanded us to "Follow"...

    False doctrine.

    Christ is the same God who said "Come, let us reason together." Yes, he indeed *did* command us to think.

  • m1c1c1 Salt Lake, UT
    June 12, 2014 7:49 p.m.

    Thank you, Kate Kelly, for inspiring me. As an ex-mormon, who distanced myself from the church because of the oppression I experienced as a woman, I truly admire your courage in the struggle for equality. It is easy to ignore oppression when you fit into the dominant group, but, the LDS church needs to open its eyes to the trauma and damage it causes to those who don't fit. Those who refuse to live inauthentically. There is no love without truth and your truth is something no one can take away from you!

  • kargirl Sacramento, CA
    June 12, 2014 8:05 p.m.

    "Ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you", is what I was taught. This is what our brother and sister did here. John and Kate asked questions, sought answers and knocked on the door for knowledge. At the same time, they helped many of us, questioners as well, many of us feeling marginalized and unwanted, to find our testimonies and bring them out from under the basket to shine. And because they are asking to have their concerns heard, they are no longer our brother and sister? This is not what I was taught. Family is always family. We and they are brothers and sisters. One more thought--"this above all, to thine own self be true, for it follows, as does night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man".

  • pumpkin Huntington, Utah
    June 12, 2014 8:22 p.m.

    so silly. this is America. Start your own religion and ordain dogs if you want. What is the big fuss? Silly women.

  • Good Mojo Tooele, UT
    June 12, 2014 9:14 p.m.

    If there are any sisters out there who think we men have secrets we discuss during priesthood session, let me clue you in. The entire priesthood session audio file can be downloaded by anyone from the Internet. I think we should have a women's session where men are excluded. Having the Priesthood just means your the dumb ox pulling the ox cart that everyone else get's to ride in. My wife still very much holds the reins.

  • kargirl Sacramento, CA
    June 12, 2014 9:30 p.m.

    Right, we should follow the Savior. I believe He was born in Bethlehem, a couple of thousand years or so ago. He, not anyone since, was perfect, and as such, we could follow. But since His death and resurrection, all He's had to work with are imperfect, flawed, mistake-making human beings. The ones who were chosen as leaders did fairly well...still do. All have acknowledged their human frailty. But we have to also acknowledge it with them, as well as the rarely acknowledged fact of continuing revelation, personal inspiration, and the idea that, given the humanity of our leaders, we need to study, learn, question, and think. Can we at least try to separate doctrine from culture and practice? And can we also recall that our leaders are of their times, as we are, even prisoners of their times to some degree as we all are in ways? All these human factors are part of us. They are part of our leaders. Sadly, they are part of why our responses here are sometimes not representative of our best selves.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    June 12, 2014 9:46 p.m.

    Mc

    "Nobody ever said that blacks would never hold the priesthood" ... Nice try... But false. Bruce R. McConkie said they would never get it. Wouldn't he be considered a 'somebody' in the church ranks?

  • Surfs Up Huntington Beach, CA
    June 12, 2014 10:54 p.m.

    It is a lot of work to be in the church.. I always wondered when Kate, John, JoAnna Brooks etc... found time to do their callings and also head up mormon stories and ordain woman.. Oh wait...they don't hold callings.. they are not into building up they are into tearing down.. Let them go!!!

  • MaryannT ,
    June 12, 2014 11:47 p.m.

    The most glaring question is this: Why does Kate Kelly want to remain a member of a church that she does not believe in? Usually if people do not like a church or any other organization, the leave it. I suggest she start her own church---she can do anything she wants then. The fact that she ran to the New York Times is very revealing. This news would not even be public because the church keeps church courts completely confidential. Kelly has clearly revealed her agenda----she seeks the limelight at all costs and has repeatedly attempted to show a very distorted view of the church to the world. She is completely disloyal.

  • 79Ute Orange County, CA
    June 13, 2014 12:51 a.m.

    "For a church not to allow it's members to question is a blow to all thinking members...How can I support a church that may throw me out if I question or doubt the verity of policy and doctrine?"

    The Church doesn't prohibit us from asking questions or doubting. I'm in the Church with all my heart and my doubts and questions. I know what I know and what I don't. What I know keeps me actively in; what I don't keeps me full of questions and occasional doubts. I have things I'd like to see changed, too, and I've discussed them with others including general authorities as appropriate.

    KK orchestrated publicity events, playing to the cameras, to pressure Church leaders. She doesn't have questions or issues about how men and women best serve in the Church together; she's already concluded that we can't be equal without women receiving the priesthood. Based on my experience with women, I respectfully disagree. She's not seeking answers; she's agitating for change.

  • 79Ute Orange County, CA
    June 13, 2014 1:33 a.m.

    @Vegas:

    When you say "I am discouraged and deeply saddened that the Church doesn't want people like me in the fold," nothing could be further from the truth.

    I want you in the fold with all of your questions. I believe you can find answers through serious study and thoughtful prayer. What the Church doesn't want is for you to encourage others to leave the fold.

    I know so many people who know more than I do - most do. Most are in the Church; some have left; many have never been associated with us. The smartest person I've ever known had the "Faith of a Scientist" - in fact, he wrote the book! But his faith didn't suffice for mine. I had to find my own.

    I have faith that all of my questions can be answered because that's what happens to me when I seriously study, pray in faith, and listen to the One who knows better than any of us.

    It's always puzzled me, however, that my formula doesn't work for everyone. "Why not?" is one of my most revisited questions. Jewish proverb: There is no solution; seek it lovingly!

    Respectfully,

  • 79Ute Orange County, CA
    June 13, 2014 1:45 a.m.

    How can people seriously state that all JD and KK did was ask questions? If that's what you think, you're not going to the source materials to see what JD has been doing and you're not watching the news with respect to KK!

    It's not the questioning that is at issue - please! It's the marches on Temple Square. It's orchestrating the plan and leading the 150 women to step forward one at a time and ask for something that they knew they would not be given because their request for tickets had already been responded to. It's the podcasts with the honored guest anti-Mormon of the week, who all have a clear negative bias, and the lambasting of apologists as biased!

    Questioning doctrine, having a faith crisis, not supporting Prop 8, etc. having never been grounds for excommunication - or I'd be out, too.

    Got to run - I've got a neighbor who needs help!

  • Not Much of a Fan OC, CA
    June 13, 2014 1:55 a.m.

    @Shooter_McGavin

    "I plead with you to have the courage to make certain everyone included and feel LOVED and VALUED".

    - Thomas S. Monson

    Practice what you preach...

    ______________________________________

    If you know anything about Pres. Monson, you'd know how "practiced" he is at loving and valuing, not just "everyone" but the individuals who make up all of us. He's a great example of how you and I can be more like our Exemplar.

    And for those wondering why he isn't speaking out, he's too busy visiting the sick and caring for the widows in addition to holding down his day job.

  • Not Much of a Fan OC, CA
    June 13, 2014 1:57 a.m.

    @Surfs Up

    While I understand your feelings, you should know that Kate held a calling before she moved and JoAnna holds a calling. They use the time others spend reading comments to magnify their callings.

    Have you done any good in the world today?

  • Not Much of a Fan OC, CA
    June 13, 2014 2:09 a.m.

    Peggy Fletcher Stack wrote in the SL Trib todayt "Kelly will continue to work with the group as it seeks a divine answer on female ordination, she (Kelley) said."

    Here's the problem: Ordain Women isn't seeking a "divine answer" - they're insisting that the leaders of the Church give them the answer they demand or they'll continue to march to Temple Square with the media in tow.

    They have not and defiantly won't take "No" for an answer.

  • take2ndbreath Princeton, TX
    June 13, 2014 6:40 a.m.

    @ HRM You're right we should mourn for them and try to bring them back to the fold. I think my responses (and perhaps others) have been not very mournful because I feel that Ms. Kelly and Mr. Dehlin have attacked the most precious thing in my life and continued to do so even after being asked not to. They have cast a bad (and inaccurate) light on our Church and our through that also our Lord and Savior, willfully, even bringing in the media personally. Perhaps we are responding with too little charity (honestly I'm not sure most of us are.) But I feel I have the right and the obligation to defend the Gospel and He who is at the head, Christ Jesus, and the organization that He Himself created, which these people are trying to destroy and publicly ridicule.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    June 13, 2014 7:36 a.m.

    Was JS in favor of priesthood for women and did he give it to Emma, some historians say it is so. Too bad the church won't open all the church records and history and stop controlling information so that the full truth could be shared with all god's children.

  • Itsme2 SLC, UT
    June 13, 2014 7:54 a.m.

    If you look at Kate Kelly's facebook page, it appears she is looking for followers for herself. She appears very narcissistic.

  • JonathanPDX Portland, Oregon
    June 13, 2014 8:33 a.m.

    The *doctrine* of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not up for democratic vote nor established via a popularity contest. It is established through revelation to the Prophet.

    One can see the result of establishing church doctrine through fiat by observing all the various "Christian" churches...all 65,000+ denominations/factions/groups, each with their own view of how a chapter, verse or word should be interpreted.

    We are exhorted to be humble, diligent and prayerful in studying scripture and discerning its truth by the power of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps if those facing Church discipline applied those principles to their search for truth, rather than allowing popular opinion to sway their decisions, they might see just how orderly, just and correct the Church truly is.

    I pray that we all might work harder to be humble and let the Holy Spirit guide us in all our decisions rather than the desires of men.

  • JonathanPDX Portland, Oregon
    June 13, 2014 8:40 a.m.

    @mostlygizzards said: "This is not what Christ would have done."

    Exactly what would Christ have done, in your opinion? Would he have just rolled over and played the milquetoast while others, who professed to believe in his teachings, loudly and publically spoke out against the things he taught?

    Please, enlighten us as to what Christ would have done.

    Thanks!

  • Mc West Jordan, UT
    June 13, 2014 8:46 a.m.

    The church has people called as official spokeswomen and spokesmen and an official website that posts official statements and responses. Do you think that these officials are acting on their own without approval from Pres. Monson? He doesn't have to come out before the media to address every issue himself. He has better things to do, but I am absolutely sure that the statements made in behalf of the church have been approved by him before going out.

    Pres. Monson would want us to have love and compassion for these people, but he also urged us to not be afraid to stand up for what's right. In April's Conference he said,"My beloved brethren, with the courage of our convictions, may we declare, with the Apostle Paul, “I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.” And then, with that same courage, may we follow Paul’s counsel: “Be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity".

    I love Pres. Monson and I have absolute faith in his ability to lead this church according to the will of the Lord.

  • morpunkt Glendora, CA
    June 13, 2014 8:50 a.m.

    Sonya Johnson revisited.

  • Kay Hunt Celebration, FL
    June 13, 2014 8:57 a.m.

    I do not know anything about Brother Dehlin. But I have followed the Sister Kelly Ordain Women stuff knowing that the date was drawing near that we would hear something from her in regards to a bishop's court. Am I surprised? No. Sister Kelly asking questions was not the issue. The issue is that she has gone beyond that. Facebook page, protests, interviews with national media. It is so sad when someone leaves the church. My heart goes out to both families. Leaving the church is sad. Hopefully their families will survive this stress and they will return to the fold. The doctrine requires faith and obedience. We get to chose our actions not the consequences.

  • MapleDon Springville, UT
    June 13, 2014 9:11 a.m.

    There are things about the Church, its history (and its white-washing of history), its leaders, etc. that I'm not a fan of and sometimes talk to others about. I still hold leadership positions and have a temple recommend.

    But, I don't protest in front of the temple or Church headquarters. I don't issue press releases voicing fierce opposition to the Church. Personally, if it became bad for me, I'd happily find another church to join. I can still follow Christ.

    There's the difference.

  • take2ndbreath Princeton, TX
    June 13, 2014 9:14 a.m.

    @ LVIS. First of all if you grew up Mormon you know all of the worldwide charities the church sponsors and all of the people they help within their own wards. The LDS Church is one of the most charitable organization on this planet. Period.

    As far as them building their multi-billion dollar commercial shopping mall; I am so tired of hearing people complain about that. As an MS patient on disability I give my 'widow's mite' and I have no problem with them building that mall. Why? It's called "investment". Real estate is a great way to invest money. I don't want the Church to hide my tithing under a rock, I want to see that money grow and be put to more good, charitable use. What's wrong with that. It's smart investing, not evil.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    June 13, 2014 9:44 a.m.

    MapleDon,

    "....I don't protest in front of the temple or Church headquarters. I don't issue press releases voicing fierce opposition to the Church...."
    ______________________________

    In 1517, they didn’t have the Internet for bloggers to use to spread their messages. But Martin Luther did post his 95 theses on the door of the Wittenberg Church. Sparking the Protestant reformation is not what he had in mind. But he did know he was challenging an authoritarian church that had little tolerance of dissent.

  • Cheesecake Salt Lake City, UT
    June 13, 2014 9:56 a.m.

    I seem to remember learning that the Word of Wisdom came about when a woman asked the prophet to inquire of the Lord about a concern she had.

    Oh and there was an time when persons of colour were not given priesthood authority in the LDS Church, but eventually that changed.

    Maybe we shouldn't be so harsh on these folks and remember what He taught us: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."

  • RBN Salt Lake City, UT
    June 13, 2014 9:59 a.m.

    The interesting thing about the Ordain Women movement is that they don't "get" priesthood. A lot of PH holders also don't get it, but that's another matter. At the core of priesthood is this: "That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to ... to gratify our pride, our vain ambition... behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man." And this: "No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;By kindness, and pure knowledge...". The OW group doesn't want the priesthood to serve; they want it for power. They fail to understand what the priesthood is about. It reminds me of a line in one of my favorite books, Cry, The Beloved Country: “But there is only one thing that has power completely, and this is love. Because when a man loves, he seeks no power, and therefore he has power.” Priesthood power is the same.

  • Susan in VA Alexandria, VA
    June 13, 2014 10:03 a.m.

    Having been disciplined by a Bishop because I said to him that I was not questioning my faith or the church, but trying to redefine my place in the church.... age, health and other personal things had changed over the years... all of this just seals in my mind that women dare not question anything in the Church. There are many things that need to change in the church to bring it into the 21st century.... we are slowly moving in that direction. The only real question I have in this aspect is why are these discipline hearings being held with no female presence in the room. Because of the contention involved in this.... I find this not only dangerous, but as a woman, terrifying.

  • Susan in VA Alexandria, VA
    June 13, 2014 10:15 a.m.

    @Strider303
    You do realize that there are liberal Mormons who have good standing in the Church - don't you? As far as I can see, Jesus was the original Liberal. I resent that you are in effect trashing anyone who holds a liberal viewpoint.

  • MrsM Bristol, RI
    June 13, 2014 11:27 a.m.

    Last summer, Mormon missionaries visited our home. Since they kept being transferred, my husband and I became acquainted with 7 of the most respectful and well mannered young men we have ever met. I attended services and enjoyed the warmth of everyone there. The stake in Newport, RI are welcoming and make you feel at home. I'm sorry that for several reasons I have not been able to go back.

    The LDS Church does not have "a lot of maturing to do before it's a religion for adults" An adult has a choice to stay with the religion they were born to or to leave. If you don't agree anymore than pick a philosophy that you agree with.

    Women were not meant to be Priests! I'm a Roman Catholic and if this Pope changes anything then as an adult I will choose to go elsewhere. Women who are "ordained" are excommunicated automatically at our religion. I wish our Bishops were stronger in taking disciplinary action against so called "Catholics" who do not support our views but speak out publicly against them. They too feel that we need to get with the times.

  • common sense in Idaho Pocatello, id
    June 13, 2014 11:33 a.m.

    Red Wing - Well said every comment. My compliments.

  • take2ndbreath Princeton, TX
    June 13, 2014 11:59 a.m.

    I'm not going to mention any names, but I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the fact that a woman posted here that she felt that she was disciplined by her bishop simply because she was seeking to redefine her position in the church because her age, health... was changing. Unless that was code for the fact that she too wanted to be ordained to the Priesthood; I think there may have been a lot of details that were left out of that story. I just can't imagine any bishop I've ever known disciplining me for thinking about my position (aka my calling/what I had to offer the ward). I hope it ended well for her and things got cleared up.

  • sid 6.7 Holladay, UT
    June 13, 2014 1:32 p.m.

    I'm just curious, was their anyone Excommunicated for advocating African Americans having the Priesthood prior to them receiving it?

    I really don't know. Any help would be appreciated.

  • Furry1993 Ogden, UT
    June 13, 2014 2:01 p.m.

    @sid 6.7 1:32 p.m. June 13, 2014

    I don't know. I DO know that when I was advocating for the passage of the ERA, I made very sure I was speaking as an individual, that I did not in any way criticize the LDS Church's stance on the issue, and did not at any time mention the fact that I was (and still am) a member of the LDS Church.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Chihuahua, 00
    June 13, 2014 2:55 p.m.

    Susan VA.

    "There are many things that need to change in the church to bring it into the 21st century."

    What part of "Being in the world but not of the world", don't you understand? If the church conformed to everything, it wouldn't even be called the Church of Jesus Christ out of offending some atheist. Sunday meetings would consist of eating, drinking and being merry.

    Should the Church get rid of the word of wisdom? Should the Church get rid of the Law of Chastity? Aren't these things out of touch with your 21st century?

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    June 13, 2014 5:18 p.m.

    Mrs. Kelly went into this endeavor with both eyes wide open. She has an agenda and wasn't going to stop short of moving it forward, regardless of the outcome. Her church membership should rightfully be removed. A woman of her education and knowledge of church doctrine knows exactly what she is doing - and that is acting in open opposition to the church.

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    June 13, 2014 6:02 p.m.

    As I have read the profiles of the hand full of supporters for Ordain Women, I think it would be appropriate for the local Church leaders to interview those who posted their profile to determine where they really stand. Those who continue in open defiance should be sanctioned by their local church authorities.

  • Mexican Ute mexico, 00
    June 13, 2014 9:08 p.m.

    Sad to see them go, but unfortunately that is what happens when you take a public position against a Church doctrine for all the world to see.

    Elder Jeffrey R. Holland said in the last GC to defend our faith...

  • Juliet Bountiful, UT
    June 13, 2014 9:10 p.m.

    John Dehlin's podcasts helped me through a very dark time in my life. It makes me sad to see people making him out to be a villain. He's not. It's easy to cast judgement. It's much more difficult to try to understand other people's perspective. John to be excommunicated? So wrong.

  • Tiago Seattle, WA
    June 13, 2014 9:25 p.m.

    @Sid 6.7
    I was curious about the same question.
    I found an article about a member named Douglas Wallace who was excommunicated in 1976 for ordaining a black man and another named Byron Marchant excommunicated in 1977 for protesting at General Conference against the church's position on blacks.

  • dandawg Orem, UT
    June 13, 2014 10:25 p.m.

    John Dehlin's comment rings true: "I believe that our inability to discuss openly difficult issues in the church is our biggest issue in the church." The church's response--"There is room for questions and we welcome sincere conversations"--is hollow. The church welcomes 'participation' only if it passes a narrow test of doctrinal purity. Yes, 'bear your testimony,' but only if it fits the same official template as everyone else's. My Sunday school classes have never accepted sincere doubt--only comments of affirmation. Anyone who expresses doubt openly is immediately treated like there is something wrong with them. Church is boring because sincerity and individuality are stifled by monotonous quests to conform thought, word, and deed to scriptural ideals. Not even that--sometimes I think people in the scriptures were allowed to be more human than we are. I long for a time when individuals matter more in the church, even if their views or actions don't always conform to each and every official utterance.

  • Wayne Dequer MONROVIA, CA
    June 14, 2014 3:29 a.m.

    Unfortunately, I note a number of commentators who presume that Sister Kelly and Brother Dehlin have already been excommunicated. We know more than usual because Sister Kelly and Brother Dehlin have published communication from local leaders that are usually confidential, but we do NOT know many the details. They may well continue in a path that unfortunately will lead to excommunication, but as far as I know, that has NOT yet occurred. While I do NOT agree with or support all their views and/or tactics, I am NOT in a position to judge them as individuals and neither are most of us. I hope we will be careful to treat each other with as beloved brothers and sisters. I am grateful that two of the "September 6" have chosen to make the changes in their lives that have lead them back to full-faith and fellowship. I hope other will follow in time and that we will welcome them with open arms.

  • Jan2014 Pawleys Island, SC
    June 14, 2014 7:47 a.m.

    At least John Dehlin acknowledges his decisions have led to this. The unfortunate thing is Mr. Dehlin either a) lied about him still wanting to be a member of the LDS church on Wednesday or b) he's regretting sending an email in January to his bishop requesting his name to be removed from records, and nobody from the church to contact him. It was his choice. You can see the letter by looking up "Stake President Letter to John Dehlin." Also, you have to consider who's crying wolf. It certainly wasn't the church who sent the letter and information to the press. It was John himself. He asked for his name to be removed, for him not to be contacted, and then when the church formally tries to honor his request he says "wait, hey world, look how terrible they are, look what they are doing to me." He's making money off of it, as more people will look at his website, and contribute money since it's how he's made money for several years. He made these choices and now he doesn't like the ramifications.

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    June 14, 2014 9:02 a.m.

    @dandawg
    Orem, UT

    I think you make some valid points. I have found that some church members are uncomfortable with honest questions that they are not familiar with, as you alluded to. I think The Church is making some concerted efforts to be more open about some historical questions at the top levels. It will require patience for this to evolve over time. Note, I'm not talking here about changes to doctrine such as women holding the Priesthood, I do not support that or believe it will ever happen. Perhaps some day The Church will include some lessons in the manuals that address some of the issues that people have not wanted to discuss much over the years which now have created some questions in their minds. I believe some healthy clarification and respectful discussion on those issues would be beneficial.

  • Mick Murray, Utah
    June 14, 2014 9:52 a.m.

    I am curious just how Katie Kelly thinks the leadership should answer OW question of women having the priesthood. I think it was answered and explained in Elder Oaks talk in April. This is not a political organization, like she is use to dealing with. You don't get to hold popular votes and continue to take polls and campaign until you get your way.

    "Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servant, it is the same."

  • christoph Brigham City, UT
    June 14, 2014 4:14 p.m.

    A nice pastor from a Protestant faith asked me recently, in our friendly conversations on faith, and the Church, why we need any other books other than the Bible. My response was the Bible doesn't teach us how to excommunicate and that was certainly something that was done in New Testament times (frankly the Book of Mormon teaches little on this as well, though Alma 6 does mention in the first few verses that wicked members, and yes they do exist out there, need to be dealt with, just like Paul and Peter dealt with them, and John in the Revelation.) We didn't know how to discipline rebellious members until 200 years ago when prophets were taught to hold members accountable. Just letting anything go isn't a way forward. The Lord loves, yet He doesn't love so much to allow any behaviour in His church. It takes a lot of effort to get excommunicated, and like many things in life, it may happen in spirit long before it happens on paper.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 15, 2014 10:51 a.m.

    sid and tiago:

    Marchant and Wallace were not excommunicated because they asked questions about black men and the priesthood. It was because they disagreed with the answer and felt they had the authority to do something different, instead of leaving it to the Lord to know when the time was right.

    I don't know about Wallace, but Marchant didn't return after 1978. He just found other issues to justify being critical of the Church and all its leaders, from the prophet to his bishop.

  • GaryO Virginia Beach, VA
    June 15, 2014 1:12 p.m.

    Well then, Can't they just form a new church?

    They could call it the Traditional Church of Latter Day Saints.

    After all, breaking away from some aspects of mainstream Christian teachings was the way the original LDS Church was founded, right?

    They would be building on tradition.

  • LovelyDeseret Gilbert, AZ
    June 15, 2014 7:39 p.m.

    Let me know when their 15 minutes of fame is up.

  • suzyk#1 Mount Pleasant, UT
    June 15, 2014 7:56 p.m.

    To: Craig Clark - putting into action those negative independent views is the thing that brings disciplinary action. There will always be those that want to push or twist an issue for their own benefit but then there will be those members who respect and live up to the commitments they have made. That's the difference.

  • suzyk#1 Mount Pleasant, UT
    June 15, 2014 8:09 p.m.

    We can do or say what we want but we cannot choose the consequences.

  • onebigdaddy Dillon, CO
    June 15, 2014 11:05 p.m.

    Craig Clark From Boulder .. What you had to say sounds exactly like what someone from Boulder & CU would say. You must not be an LDS member or you would know that the church welcomes independent thought & civil dialogue but not what is contrary to doctrines & principles of the church. We have our Agency but once we become a baptized & confirmed member we agree to follow the doctrines.

  • Interloper Portland, OR
    June 16, 2014 1:49 a.m.

    I don't understand why dignified questioning of the beliefs and policies of the Mormon church is considered something to be punished. If these beliefs and policies are defensible, why not defend them instead?

    It also seems odd that as many as 90% of Mormon women would oppose priesthood for women, considering that most women consider their gender full-fledged human beings capable of just about anything. It is not as if the all-male LDS leadership is perfect. It has made plenty of mistakes.

    Less than 10 years ago most people believed that relationships between homosexuals would never be recognized as marriage. Fifty years ago, racial segregation was law in the South. Women being excluded from leadership by some religions may end, as well.

  • sukiyhtaky us, CA
    June 16, 2014 2:17 a.m.

    OK I didn't feel I had the right to comment on this since I am not a Mormon, but I have to now. Ms. Kelly said when speaking of her situation...

    "As an attorney, it’s a violation of due process, and it highlights that the system is unfair.”

    Censors correct me if I am wrong...and I know you will :)...but, attorneys and due process and our legal system are all part and parcel of civil law no? Wouldn't God and Jesus Christ trump civil law? She is an attorney and can't figure that out?

    Also, if she really believed the CoJCoLdS was the true church established by JS acting on authority by God how could she want to cherry pick her beliefs? You either believe or you don't. If you don't you leave and go find another one. Am I the only one who see that?

    As for Dehlin, this is just the cause du jour for him. If you don't believe, move on, it is not going to change for you on doctrinal issues people.

    Curtsey

  • deductive reasoning Arlington, VA
    June 16, 2014 8:13 a.m.

    Kelly and Dehlin are getting exactly what they'd hoped for, a chance to be martyrs for their "cause".

    Unfortunately for them, they're fighting a losing battle.

    If the LDS church is "true", then why are they trying to tell God how to run his church?

    If the LDS church is "not true", then none of their proposed changes will make any difference.

  • scwoz gambier, oh
    June 16, 2014 11:00 a.m.

    Is the news the place for any of this informaiton. It is between the people and God and the Bishop. Not the news, or for me to read about. It is not news.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 16, 2014 1:12 p.m.

    "I don't understand why dignified questioning of the beliefs and policies of the Mormon church is considered something to be punished."

    Interloper:

    As has been stated by others, it is not "dignified questioning" that may be punished here, it is the undignified refusal to accept the church's clear and consistent answers to their questions.

    This is a critical distinction that so many here fail to grasp.

  • wjalden Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 16, 2014 1:25 p.m.

    My older brother knew John at BYU. They were friends, and still are. According to my brother, John's story about doubts arising only after teaching seminary are simplified, to say the least. He was already expressing doubts about the Church while in college.

    I have listened to several of John's podcasts. I left the Church when I probably had only a tenth of the doubts that John has expressed. I suspect that part of the reason he remains is that more Mormons are likely to listen to him if he just seems like an earnest member expressing "doubts" rather than being an outsider attacking the Church. Perhaps he even wants to be a martyr, though I don't doubt that he still feels genuine fondness for it, just as I did for a long time.

    I don't exactly love the Church, but it has every right to kick him and Kate Kelly out of their club.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    June 16, 2014 2:04 p.m.

    JohnInSLC,

    "....As has been stated by others, it is not "dignified questioning" that may be punished here, it is the undignified refusal to accept the church's clear and consistent answers to their questions...."
    ______________________________

    Do you mean that once the Church has clearly stated its position on something, a member is under obligation to not oppose it?

  • wjalden Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 16, 2014 2:16 p.m.

    Craig Clark: "Do you mean that once the Church has clearly stated its position on something, a member is under obligation to not oppose it?"

    Depends on what the definition of "it" is. Politics, or doctrine? John Dehlin is on record as pretty much doubting everything the LDS Church claims about its history, or at least the supernatural aspects of its history - the historicity of the the Book of Mormon, the origins of the Book of Abraham, ad infinitum. To openly deny those things is to basically say you aren't a believing Mormon.

    That's fine. I'm not a believing Mormon, either. I left the Church long ago. But don't say those things and expect the Church to accept you as a member.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 16, 2014 4:56 p.m.

    Craig Clark:

    wjalden's response covers it for me. However, perhaps the more pertinent question is this:

    When someone takes a highly visible and public stand squarely opposed to Church doctrine, do you think the Church is somehow obligated to maintain their record as a member in good standing, thus allowing them to promote their contrary views as a seemingly faithful member of the Church?

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    June 17, 2014 9:07 a.m.

    People across the world are suffering and dying like flies while posters here debate if god views man and women as equal humans, wake up. It has nothing to do with god: it is simply corporate church management and mans politics. If there is a personal compassionate god, let's hope he/she is pre-occupied with higher priorities.

  • Harrison Bergeron Holladay , UT
    June 19, 2014 5:41 a.m.

    The underlying assumption of the Ordain Women bunch is base on an erroneous belief. They think they can change who gets ordained to the Priesthood the same way they would change a department store's return policy on a dress (or pant-suit perhaps) they don't like. Arguing with the clerk will get you nowhere in this case. The manager cannot help either.

    You have to go to the owner in this situation. And the owner is God. They have his direct line, if they will use it. But they should understand that what they are asking is for Him to rethink His entire creation. It is like asking him to change which gender has babies. Of course, with God, nothing is impossible. However, it would seem like a more reasonable request to ask God for understanding about why He did things the way He did.

    Just sayin'.

  • p3406 Salt Lake, UT
    June 23, 2014 1:05 a.m.

    I wonder if these women have looked into the Community of Christ (formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). That church has ordained women since 1984 and women apostles since 1998. Perhaps that church would be a better fit for these women who want to be ordained.