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Kathleen Parker: Cliven Bundy isn't Ben Cartwright defending the Ponderosa

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  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    April 29, 2014 2:06 a.m.

    President Obama should handle this situation the same way that President Washington handled the Whiskey Rebellion, the two situations are remarkably similar.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    April 29, 2014 5:47 a.m.

    What I think is interesting is there were posters who claimed Bundy was on the side of right because he was a member of the church. He had to be a good guy by their logic. On the other hand, there are those who say Bundy has to be a bad guy because he has racist attitudes. By their logic his behavior is just an extension of his twisted soul.

    The interesting things is neither are right. Bundy's membership doesn't make him a good guy, neither do his attitudes make him a bad guy. I have relatives and inlays that I know were good people, that shared his thinking about race. I think they were and are wrong in those attitudes, but that attitude does not comprise the totality of those people. In fact, some were more generous to blacks than many liberals I know.

    The issues are not linked. I do think Bundy's attitudes on slavery are wrong. I believe he is also wrong about the land he is using for free. But I know those who share his attitudes, that are still basically good people… and just perhaps he is a good guy too……

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    April 29, 2014 6:00 a.m.

    Had this been a bunch of hippies living in tents on this land, the right would have advocated removing them with a small nuke.

    Even those who concede that Bundy was in the wrong, do so begrudgingly and with caveats.

    Why? Because it involves people with guns and the evil government overreach (Reagan executive order 12548)

    Bundy has been wrong since day one. His racist rant did not change the facts.

    Taking up arms against laws we dont like is wrong.

    It should not have taken racist remarks for patriotic Americans to distance themselves from him.

  • Fitness Freak Salt Lake City, UT
    April 29, 2014 6:21 a.m.

    Isn't it just a little foolish for the U.S. government to nag Bundy for 1 mil. in "land rent" (and spend 3 mil. trying to collect it), while at the same time we have 20 million illegal alien trespassers that cost us 100 billion per yr. in our lost wages and government services?

  • USA Salt Lake City, UT
    April 29, 2014 6:29 a.m.

    Well said, Kathleen Parker.

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    April 29, 2014 6:38 a.m.

    Just put a lien on Bundy's property, the government gets its money and the problem is solved! No need for 200 armed sharp shooters, attack dogs and tasers threatening innocent people, killing cattle and acting like the Gestapo which cost the taxpayers over a million dollars. WAY too much force for such an easy law enforcement problem! Imagine the hissy fit the left would be having if the feds send the same show of force to collect taxes from Timothy Franz Geithner, who didn't pay his taxes either! And Geithner is Secretary of the Treasury!

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    April 29, 2014 7:02 a.m.

    "The GOP does not deserve to be indicted along with Bundy,..."

    Yes it clearly does.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    April 29, 2014 7:13 a.m.

    Roland Kayser
    Cottonwood Heights, UT
    President Obama should handle this situation the same way that President Washington handled the Whiskey Rebellion, the two situations are remarkably similar.

    2:06 a.m. April 29, 2014

    =========

    Agreed, very similar.

    Except this time --
    arrest him, try him, and send him to jail.

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    April 29, 2014 7:39 a.m.

    Cliven Bundy's biggest sin is he opened his mouth.

    Of course not all Republicans are racist, but if there's anything that defines a conservative, it's a longing to return to a better, simpler time, where the roles of the genders were well understood and adhered to, where right was right, and wrong was wrong, etc.

    For many conservatives - many more than they'd like you to know, or to believe themselves - that sentimental "Ponderosa" involves ideas on race most of America now finds completely repugnant.

    To many African Americans, Bundy was refreshing because he was brutally honest in speaking his mind. "At least he's honest." They know we've made good progress on race, but they also sense that since racism has become taboo, it's not gone, it's just been driven underground.

    For African Americans it's often difficult to tell if the person behind the smile truly accepts them as equal, or is a poker face hiding a wish to return to the past. This is a burden white Americans have no way to understand.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    April 29, 2014 7:57 a.m.

    @Fitness Freak
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Isn't it just a little foolish for the U.S. government to nag Bundy for 1 mil. in "land rent" (and spend 3 mil. trying to collect it),

    6:21 a.m. April 29, 2014

    ======

    No more foolish than spending $100 billion a year for law enforcement sending kids to jail for selling $6.2 billion worth of pot.

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    April 29, 2014 8:12 a.m.

    Just put a lien on his property! Problem solved! No need for the Gestapo to roll in.

  • Ajax Mapleton, UT
    April 29, 2014 8:35 a.m.

    I've long wondered why so many locally are drawn to the mendacity of extreme right politics, especially when all too often the results are so regrettable as in the cases of Cliven Bundy, Russell Pearce and Mike Lee.

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    April 29, 2014 9:33 a.m.

    Thid Barker: "Just put a lien on his property! Problem solved! No need for the Gestapo to roll in."

    You've suggested this before. A lien is only collected when the property is sold, which could be decades from now. Do the unpaid fees and penalties accrue interest in the interim? What if the property is in the name of a corporation or trust and not Bundy himself? It seems like a creative property law attorney could find many ways to circumvent a lien. Would you suggest this approach for anyone who owes the government money, or only those who throw a fit?

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    April 29, 2014 9:34 a.m.

    Must every real person be turned into a TV character before people can either connect or reject them?

    This constant attempt to turn people into their version of them on TV... is ridiculous...

    Just deal with him for who he IS... not the TV character he reminds you of!

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    April 29, 2014 9:46 a.m.

    Did anything happen like this to Tim Geithner when he didn't pay his taxes? Oh he eventually paid them,(as will Bundy), but it was no big deal, was it libs? It was just a "misunderstanding". He even became Secretary of the Treasury! Is America a great country or what?

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    April 29, 2014 9:55 a.m.

    @JoeBlow,

    A reality-check for your usual overthetop rhetoric...

    Re: "Had this been a bunch of hippies living in tents on this land, the right would have advocated removing them with a small nuke".

    Proof your assumption NOT true...
    Did anybody propose nuking or anything like that when hippies occupied places in EVERY STATE... and defied and even invited clashes with law enforcement... and NOBODY proposed nuking...

    ===

    Re: "Even those who concede that Bundy was in the wrong, do so begrudgingly and with caveats"...

    I have no problem denouncing his racist comments. But does that automatically mean his CAUSE was wrong?? This cause isn't based on his personality or his foibles!

    I mean it's not about HIM... it's about government overreach...

    He's just the guy the government was going after (and some people wanted to make a statement out of supporting the American rancher... instead of the government).

    That doesn't necessarily mean they approve of EVERYTHING he ever said or does...

    ====

    His remarks do not mean everybody must abandon the cause he came to represent... They are separate things. That you can't separate them... is very telling about the tactics you like to use...

  • Noodlekaboodle Poplar Grove, UT
    April 29, 2014 10:34 a.m.

    @2Bits
    But why does he deserve to use this land(owned by the federal government) for free? I have family who are ranchers, they pay a good chunk of change to rent grazing land from a private owner, should they get to use the land for free because they have been using it for the last 50 years, and are more familiar with the property than even the owner? What about all the other ranchers who do pay grazing fees to the federal government. Why does Mr Bundy think he's so special? Why does he think he doesn't have to live by the same rules that the rest of his industry follows? The real question is, what is the government overreach in trying to collect fees that any other rancher would be required to pay? Pretty sure that's the governments job.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    April 29, 2014 10:55 a.m.

    Re: "Pundits . . . quickly distanced themselves from the Bundy comments, though not, curiously, from his objections to the government's authority over grazing lands."

    It's not at all curious. Conservatives are principle-driven. Unlike liberals, who are always looking for charismatic messiahs, who typically need their adherents to protect them from close scrutiny.

    What is curious is why, to liberals, the Cliven Bundy's racism somehow diminishes his status as a victim of Big Government overreach, but an Occupy Wall Street activist's anarchic past does not.

    At least conservatives stand only with that portion of the complex Cliven Bundy issue that's consistent with American values.

    Liberal activists, on the other hand, have a curious need to embrace the entire personna of their "big-tent" invitees. They accept, not just the support of people, but noxious concepts like abortion, immigration and border lawlessness, monetary and financial profligacy, anarchic Occupy-Wall-Street riots, criminality, the improbable new-age tree-hugger and atheist religions, and terrorism's collective-guilt logic, because their political desperation drives them to invite those people who embrace such concepts into their "big tent."

    There's the real curiosity.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    April 29, 2014 10:59 a.m.

    Thid Barker
    Victor, ID
    Just put a lien on his property! Problem solved! No need for the Gestapo to roll in.

    8:12 a.m. April 29, 2014

    ========

    Um.
    Because he does OWN the property.
    He is using Public lands,
    which he can use with the proper permits,

    and

    I for once actully want the "Gestapo" as you call them to stop him.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    April 29, 2014 11:08 a.m.

    @mountainman. Your argument is like a child who argues that he should be able to do something wrong just because so and so did something wrong.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    April 29, 2014 11:36 a.m.

    Re: "Your argument is like a child who argues that he should be able to do something wrong just because so and so did something wrong."

    Kinda like the open-borders crowd's argument on illegal immigration, huh? Or Occupy Wall Street's. Or the Obama administration's arguments on Executive Branch legislation.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    April 29, 2014 12:09 p.m.

    2bits.

    Yes, I am guilty of over the top rhetoric. My 'small nuke" comment was a complete exaggeration and a joke. I think you know that.

    I have no problem with Bundy the racist.

    I have no problem with protesting perceived "government overreach"

    I have no problem with "some people wanting to make a statement out of supporting the American rancher"

    But I do have a problem with people resisting laws that they don't like with a group of people carrying guns and vowing that they will do "whatever it takes"

    This could have easily ended up in a big shootout with lots of people dead.

    That is not a protest. That is armed resistance. Huge difference.

    I have a feeling if the sheriff comes to evict me from my house for non payment, and I resist with firearms, I would end up dead at worst and in jail at best.

    How is Bundy's situation different?

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    April 29, 2014 12:27 p.m.

    Bundy family ownership of the land dates back to Mormon colonization days predating the BLM. That basis for claiming he is not subject to BLM jurisdiction was rightly tossed out of court. But it was enough to make him a hero to the far right. If he had kept his mouth shut on his racial attitudes, he might still be their golden boy.

    He’s a fallen hero for the wrong reason. Yes, he deserves the censure he’s getting but equally censurable is his attempt to be a law unto himself. His right wing cheerleaders seem to be perfectly alright with that part.

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    April 29, 2014 12:59 p.m.

    Craig Clark: "Bundy family ownership of the land dates back to Mormon colonization days predating the BLM."

    KLAS-TV (Las Vegas) reported that a search of government records does not corroborate the Bundy family's claim of land occupancy since the 1870s. A title search showed that Cliven's parents bought the ranch in 1948 and census records don't show family in the area before 1900.

    Have the Bundys issued any statement in response to this report or offered documentation to support their claim of ancestral ownership?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    April 29, 2014 1:47 p.m.

    When the Native Americans have their ancestrial lands returned to them --
    or The Mexicans and the Treaty of Guadalupe,
    THEN
    Cliven Bundy can cry "poor pity me" all he wants to...

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    April 29, 2014 1:55 p.m.

    Lagomorph,

    "....A title search showed that Cliven's parents bought the ranch in 1948 and census records don't show family in the area before 1900...."
    ______________________________

    The plot thickens. I hadn’t heard any of that. If I were Bundy’s lawyer, I might advise him not to say anything in public, certainly not to the press.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    April 29, 2014 3:31 p.m.

    Re: "The plot thickens."

    Yeah, but not in the way you mean it. For those of you unfamiliar with the real agricultural world, Mr. Bundy's family didn't buy the part of their ranch Big Government rustled his cattle from. Not in 1948. Not ever.

    Rather, that land was always open range land, and prior to FDR and his socialist "New Deal," was open to real Americans for grazing, even to erect forage-enhancing improvements. Just not for fencing, after 1885.

    One of FDR's first collectivization acts -- the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 -- organized the BLM and empowered it to enforce grazing districts, to allocate grazing monopolies [primarily to FDR cronies], and charge fees for grazing on public lands. Most large tracts on good grazing land were quickly snapped up by politically-connected Democrat families, leaving only marginal lands, like those Mr. Bundy ranches, available to real people.

    If his family was ranching in the area in the 1870's, it was quite likely on that open range. The purchase by his parents of other private land in 1948 would not have involved the land today in question.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    April 29, 2014 5:41 p.m.

    I would gladly pay what bundy is supposed to pay per acre and more if I could get a few sections of federal land for my personal lifestyle retreat. Maybe a weekend camping and quadding spot, maybe a cowboy poetry festival or an arts festival like burning man. Maybe build that gyrocopter I've always wanted and have my own airport. Whatever. If all bundy wants it for is his lifestyle, supported by a few scruffy razor thin desert cattle, give the rest of us, those of us who would make lease payments, a go at it.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    April 29, 2014 7:25 p.m.

    "Most large tracts on good grazing land were quickly snapped up by politically-connected Democrat families, leaving only marginal lands, like those Mr. Bundy ranches, available to real people."

    And thus you have an explanation why there are no wealthy or large land holders who are Republican. It no doubt give credence to why most rural areas are so democrat leaning.... you know.... non-real people.

    Good grief... will the partisan blah-blah-blah ever end?

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    April 29, 2014 8:34 p.m.

    When is the last time that side has been right about anything? The right is wrong.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    April 29, 2014 10:07 p.m.

    He is an anarchist advocating overthrow of the government.

  • use the noodle Casa Grande, AZ
    April 29, 2014 10:22 p.m.

    Stretching mountainman. If Gietner hadn't paid his taxes in 20 years,refused to recognize the US government like a seditionist, lost numerous court battles, was still cheating on his taxes and brought a bunch of friends with guns to intimidate the government agents then you would have a point.

    Oh and Bundy seems to be treated pretty well for all of this doesn't he? He's never gone to jail and didn't get shot when confronting the government agents with guns.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    April 29, 2014 10:56 p.m.

    Repubs,

    Even Glenn Beck says that Bundy is wrong and should pay the fees.

    That says a lot. I think those who continue to defend him are living in their own fantasy land willingly. Keep worshipping your false idol.

    The rest of society has moved on.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    April 30, 2014 6:59 a.m.

    The remote Gold Butte area is raw desert, no grass. The cattle out there are ideological lifestyle pets. You wouldn't want even a burger from the mojave desert cactus cattle.

  • shesaidohkay Utopia, UT
    April 30, 2014 11:34 a.m.

    Now he's down there "receiving revelation". The guy is unhinged.

    I read the KLAS story. His parents bought their ranch from the Leavitt's in 1948. His family were actually in "Bundyville" AZ (MT Trumbell area??). His grandmother on his mother's side may have settled in Littlefield Az according to census records. Like he said- he doesn't always know what he said (he just knows what he wants). He said his father "either bought or inherited his rights" and he inherited them from him. Sounds like he doesn't know??? No wonder he never wins in court. And he's your poster child (far-right)???

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    May 1, 2014 9:29 a.m.

    He represents the tea arty not the GOP. A tea party representative demanded the local Mesquite government to support him at a meeting.