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Duce's Wild: Enough already: Mormons are Bible-loving Christians

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  • EternalPerspective Eldersburg, MD
    April 25, 2014 5:53 a.m.

    The world has always rejected the claim that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is even Christian, let alone the restored Church of Christ written of in the Bible.

    Lies, contentions, and persecutions may rage against us and even rise to levels of the past with mobs and violence. But, we have infinite hope that our greatest rewards are not of the world, but in the testimonies we develop and the works we do to glorify the Savior.

    We are a peculiar people who have never been more tempted to minimize ourselves because of scrutiny from a mainstream culture that has departed so far from our values in this day.

    It would be so easy to become bothered and saddened by the world's take on us. But only in and through the redemptive power of the Savior can we bear the shame of all the crosses of the world to stand in holy places and be not moved.

    This is our time to shine forth the light and truth of the Gospel by works and not subject ourselves to worldliness or worldly lies, but rise above them henceforth and forever.

  • RG Buena Vista, VA
    April 25, 2014 6:20 a.m.

    Thank you Stacie and I hope you have sent the American Bible Society a copy of your column as well as a request for an apology.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    April 25, 2014 6:25 a.m.

    Ms Duce highlights the problem with organized religion.

    The animosity towards the "religious" is very often from others who are "religious".

    It is very easy to SAY that we are accepting of other religions, but oftentimes those are just words. And people believe it, while unaware of their own animosity towards other faiths.

    Seriously. Think about the general public perception of Scientologists. Or Muslims. Or Jehovahs Witnesses. Or the FLDS. Think about YOUR personal perception of these religions. Be Honest.

    Then tell me that those perceptions don't affect how you view or treat those groups.

    Even the religious cant come to agreements.

    This is why religion should be kept out of the public square.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    April 25, 2014 6:53 a.m.

    I've reviewed the study. I came away with the same impression as the author. LDS and other Christian-based religions that were not Protestant or Catholic were dismissed as "other."

    The ABS web site claims that the ABS adheres to four core principles, one of which is "unity." It quotes John 17:21: "I want all of them to be one with each other, just as I am one with you and you are one with me."

    It also claims "respect" as a core principle.

    I do not find this irony surprising.

  • OldSoul Gilbert, AZ
    April 25, 2014 7:46 a.m.

    Having taken a few statistics courses In my day I had to laugh at the bizarre way they grouped the data. Statistics can be manipulated so easily after the fact to achieve a pre-determined end.... That's what lit looks like they did. My mother, a non-Mormon who reads the Bible daily, was similarly marginalized.... It's a silly study.

  • southern son SHARPSBURG, MD
    April 25, 2014 7:59 a.m.

    You get 'em Stacie!!.... Is a copy of this article being forwarded to the ABS, I hope??? It should be.

  • Rikitikitavi Cardston, Alberta
    April 25, 2014 8:18 a.m.

    ABS folks have sunk back into a tired old rant re: the Latter Day Saint faith which raised it's narrow-minded chorus ever since the Restored Church began to gain serious traction mostly since the beginning of the nineteen hundreds. Simply put: "if your doctrinal beliefs, most especially the knowledge of the person(s) of Deity differ from ours you cannot be Christian".

  • qcjeep Phoenix, AZ
    April 25, 2014 8:25 a.m.

    I am still confused on who is entitled to handout the "Christian" titles. Both sides are guilty of it. For example, Mormons decide which Mormons can be and should not be considered Mormons. The FLDS are Mormons, they define a live their lives as Mormons however mainstream Mormons treat them as rejects, the red-headed stepchildren who are not Mormons. Today, Christians still have a hard time considering Mormons as Christians, for many more reasons than the few that Mormons deny FLDS. It is not fair, everyone should just accept who they are and be happy who they believe they are!

  • Rikitikitavi Cardston, Alberta
    April 25, 2014 8:25 a.m.

    @Auckland
    Two significant comments you make need to be corrected due to their inaccuracy: First: LDS do not "crave the acceptance of sectarians". We merely seek to correct half truth and in some cases outright lies. Second: how can those who clearly break from the First Presidency continue to lay claim to being Mormons? Perfect example of the marching ban analogy where all 99 are out of step and only one is in step.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    April 25, 2014 8:29 a.m.

    Dont the LDS believe that their religion came about because "all of Christianity is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord"

    Has anything changed?

    So, why is it so important to now be a considered part of that group? And, is it any wonder why these other groups don't want to include you.

    Brings to mind the quote "I wouldn't belong to any club that would have me as a member"

  • Big Bubba Herriman, UT
    April 25, 2014 8:37 a.m.

    A very good article. I agree with the author. Enough already. Christians from other faiths who continually deny that Mormons are Christians are in for a real shocker at the Second Coming. As the world becomes more secular and Mormonism stays true to traditional Christian values, I think individuals from other faiths will reevaluate their views on whether Mormons are Christians. By their fruits (good deeds) ye shall know them (Christians).

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    April 25, 2014 8:51 a.m.

    The American Bible Society was founded to promote the Bible by making copies available to every person in his own language. Now they are categorizing specific religious groups as well as non-religious readers. What do they mean by ‘scripture haters?’ That provocative term sounds like the ABS is now pursuing a whole other agenda from its original mission.

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    April 25, 2014 8:53 a.m.

    I am a Christian, a Mormon, and a member of the LDS church. Those three things are not synonomous. Of course, most Christians are not Mormons, but there are also a bunch of Mormons who are not LDS.

    A Mormon is someone who believes that the Book of Mormon is the real deal - that it is a real ancient record and its teachings are genuine.

    If we want to deny a few Christian churches a monopoly on the term "Christian", then we can't turn around and claim a monopoly on the term "Mormon". While I disagree with all the splinter group of the LDS church, I can't deny them calling themselves Mormons.

  • Dante Salt Lake City, UT
    April 25, 2014 8:55 a.m.

    A comment above reminds me of politics:

    It is very easy to SAY that we are accepting of other political persuasions, but often, those are just words. And people believe it, while unaware of their own animosity towards other political thinking.

    Seriously. Think about the general public perception of communists. Or socialists. Or tea party adherents. Think about YOUR personal perception of these political persuasions. Be honest.

    Then tell me that those perceptions don't affect how you view or treat those groups.

    Even the politicians cant come to agreements.

    This is why politics should be kept out of the public square.

  • Mona Beaverton, OR
    April 25, 2014 9:01 a.m.

    Interesting that growing up faithful Catholic we didn't study the Bible at home. We knew the Gospels and Epistles because they were read over the pulpit at mass on Sunday. Since joining the LDS Church I study the Bible intensely. One of the marvelous latter-day blessings is reference material between the different books of scripture. The Bible and Book of Mormon are great companion scriptures!

  • Deliriousdd Benicia, CA
    April 25, 2014 9:01 a.m.

    In response to a couple of the comments; the term Christian applies to those who believe in Christ. The term "Mormon" is a nickname specifically given to members of our church. Since the FLDS are not members of our church, it doesn't make sense to refer to them as such. But I think we would be happy to hand over the nickname. In fact, recent talks in general conference have encouraged us to drop the nickname all together. I for one am happy to let them have it.

    Much of the Christian world tries to deny us the right of being called Christian because our doctrine differs from theirs. But by definition, a follower of Jesus Christ is a Christian, and we do follow Him, so they cannot claim a monopoly on the term. But ive heard some who, when a member told them we believe in Jesus Christ, said, " No you don't. You just think you do." These kinds of ignorance and prejudice take time to conquer.

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    April 25, 2014 9:01 a.m.

    to JoeBlow

    I consider myself areligious not irrreligious. I agree alot of the contention is infighting amongst sects.

    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.- attributed to Seneca the Younger"

    Speaking of quotes, the one in your post moments ago is attributed to the great Groucho Marx.

  • wazzup Cottonwood Heights, UT
    April 25, 2014 9:02 a.m.

    Aldous Huxley: Facts do not cease to exist simply because they are ignored. Apparently the ABS ignored the obvious, that as part of the Mormon curriculum is the teaching of the Old and New Testament. And that the Bible is considered part of the 'Standard Works' in Mormondom.

    How 'Christians' can't comprehend the Father and Son visiting a young boy but can accept and comprehend, Christ conceiving himself or continually talking to his 'father' through the New Testament.

    What others say about my religion has absolutely no impact on what I believe or how I live. I love the opportunity to explain our differences when given the facts and then allow the listener to make up their own minds.

  • nellie83 Pleasant Grove, UT
    April 25, 2014 9:12 a.m.

    Sometimes all one needs to do is look up a definition:
    Chris·tian (krĭs′chən)
    adj.
    1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

    2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.

    3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.

    4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.

    5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

    n.
    1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

    2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

    Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) on all the above 7 definitions, check, check, check, check, check, check, check.
    Just because a lot of society doesn't view us as Christian, doesn't mean we aren't. We know in our hearts we are. We believe in the King James version of the Bible, and the Book of Mormon as the word of God and both as testaments of Jesus Christ.

  • A Scientist Provo, UT
    April 25, 2014 9:12 a.m.

    The author makes some good points.

    To be fair, however, I must offer my observations. Because I am married to the best Mormon alive (and only because of that), I have spent thirty years attending Mormon Church meetings, studying Mormon scriptures and doctrines, and even completing educational credentials from BYU (where I met my LDS wife). Based on that experience, I can attest that I frequently (very frequently) hear talks, comments in classes, and conversations where Mormons do not hesitate to denigrate the Bible when it does not confirm their own beliefs. I have heard all the usual criticisms: the Bible scribes added false doctrines, removed "plain and precious truths", eliminated entire books and gospels (that may be among the Dead Sea scrolls, or the Nag Hammadi library) and so thoroughly corrupted the Biblical text that it is effectively worthless in discovering "the fulness of the Gospel" (according to Mormonism).

    So I think Mormons should be more circumspect and thoughtful and refrain from dismissing this idea that Mormons are not friendly to the Bible. The idea has much more merit than you think.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    April 25, 2014 9:18 a.m.

    Obviously lumping them into the "other" category is faulty since they use the Bible, but I don't see how the "other" category is automatically just "haters".

  • There You Go Again Saint George, UT
    April 25, 2014 9:20 a.m.

    If you're not at the table...you're on the menu.

    Utah Republicans/Mormons feel they have a rightful seat at the table along with other Republicans/Baptists/Evangelicals etc..

    It is a rude shock for Utah Republicans/Mormons to realize there are denominations/societies, in America, who want the Utah Republican/Mormon vote and money...yet continue to deny Utah Republicans/Mormons a seat at the Christian table.

  • gmlewis Houston, TX
    April 25, 2014 9:23 a.m.

    I am unconcerned how this study classifies the LDS and other groups. The study results are flawed from the beginning by categorizing certain groups as "Bible Haters." Really, very few people HATE the Bible, including Muslims, Taoists, or even atheists. They should have divided folks into two groups: those who read the Bible on occasion and those that never read the Bible. Obviously, these results would not have served their predetermined purpose.

    This reminds me of the study that was reported earlier this year of a breakdown of "Bible readers" by religion, determined by which people used their own proprietary online Bible. Since, LDS typically read the Bible online using the www.lds.org website, we showed up as non-readers of the Bible.

    These studies are more amusing than enlightening.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    April 25, 2014 9:35 a.m.

    @Rikitikitavi
    "Second: how can those who clearly break from the First Presidency continue to lay claim to being Mormons?"

    Depends on the definition of "Mormon". One definition people use is "LDS member", another definition people use is "Book of Mormon believer". They'd qualify under the latter. Perhaps that's part of why the church at times discourages the use of the word.

  • ulvegaard Medical Lake, Washington
    April 25, 2014 9:37 a.m.

    First of all, as church leaders have asked us to do - We are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. True, other groups might refer to themselves as 'Mormons' and I guess they have that prerogative. This, however, is a different matter than determining who may be a 'Christian'.

    As I understand the term, a Christian is someone, Anyone, who feels that they follow the teachings of Christ. People can argue all they want on how well such adherence is actually accomplished.

    I consider myself a Christian. My next door neighbors - the ones who never go church do to, and I will not deny them the honorable title of Christian. By the same token I must question those non-Mormons who claim to believe in the Bible, and yet consider much of it to be a book of folk-stories and fairy-tales. I consider it to be the word of God.

  • iron&clay RIVERTON, UT
    April 25, 2014 9:41 a.m.

    As a young boy, Joseph Smith was inspired by a verse in the King James Bible that led to his being called as a boy prophet by the glorified resurrected Christ.

  • J-TX Allen, TX
    April 25, 2014 9:43 a.m.

    Interesting that the 'report' lists as its objectives to determine:
    -Perceptions of the Bible
    -Bible penetration
    -Bible engagement
    -Bible literacy
    -moral decline and social impact
    -giving to non-profit organizations

    Why is the bigoted segregation of sects even important, if these were the goals?

    What I really think is interesting is, if they asked about actual penetration - number of bibles per household member - it would have skewed their numbers severely in favor of the "non-Christians". I am quite sure that in most Mormon households where the youngest is over 8 years of age, there are more bibles than family members - and in multiple languages.

    But to get their desired results, this would not do. No, no, no, no....

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    April 25, 2014 9:55 a.m.

    A Scientist,

    "....Mormons should be more circumspect and thoughtful and refrain from dismissing this idea that Mormons are not friendly to the Bible...."
    ______________________________

    Mormons selectively use the Bible to support their beliefs. But that doesn’t distinguish the LDS so much as it puts them squarely in the Christian tradition. The Bible serves theology rather than vice versa. Not many Christians want to acknowledge that.

  • RFLASH Salt Lake City, UT
    April 25, 2014 10:03 a.m.

    Enough already! Gay people believe in God also! Enough! Maybe it is about time people treated us like they should! You might be surprised how much we believe.

  • EternalPerspective Eldersburg, MD
    April 25, 2014 10:16 a.m.

    A Scientist,

    I can see how attending Church services might create the perception of not appreciating the Bible.

    We affirm the Bible is correct as long as translation was proper to original revelations. We also know from what God reveals in these latter days there are missing pieces of context and doctrine in the Bible. But, that does not take away from our admiration of it as God's word revealed in ancient days.

    Consider, if the Bible was complete, then why would so many people, groups, and churches interpret the doctrine so differently? Why would there be a need for a new religion that claimed authority from God as does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? If the Bible was true and final, how would that support God's promise of His unchangeable nature of restoring His Church once again as expressed throughout the Bible?

    Having a Mormon wife for 30 years and attending many Church services, have you not yet desired to know if the work is true from God (and not from other people)? If you want truth about God, religion, etc., the best source is from Him directly.

  • KellyWSmith Sparks, NV
    April 25, 2014 10:25 a.m.

    I, as a member of the LDS Church, absolutely love the Bible and all the members of the church I know fit into that same category. In fact, I think it could be claimed that our church loves the Bible more than any other church because we believe and teach ALL of it, not just a few favorite verses.

    I have seen some churches built around a single verse and they hammer on it at every meeting, completely ignoring the rest of the scripture. When asked about some of these other verses they say something like, "We just get to the most important part of it. The rest is not worth what this one verse means." Thus they are in ignorance of many things, yet somehow this article labels them as "Bible Believing Christians" and we are "Bible haters"?

    Somebody is trying to make a point for some reason, but its pretty hollow when examining the facts.

  • AerilusMaximus Berryville, VA
    April 25, 2014 10:32 a.m.

    @ Joeblow

    Oh so we can let people in that are more focused / know more what is going on in a distant galaxy than what is going on in their own neighbor because their is a consesus among them?

    Is that what you are saying? Maybe their is a consenus among scientist because a good chunk of them are so focused on their own branch of science that they really don't care what is going on in the other branches?

    I would rather have people actually living on planet earth dealing with societal problems than someone that has got his head in the clouds of another planet of a far off galaxy.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    April 25, 2014 10:35 a.m.

    RE: Craig Clark, A Scientist makes some good points. AoF#8 “As translated correctly.”

    KJV/3 Nephi Sermon on the Mount. LDS Scholar Dr. Larson finds 12 examples where JS copied the 1769 KJV errors.

    Mt 6:13 KJV and 3Nephi 13:13 Both have the doxology, For thine is he Kingdom and power and the glory forever amen. The KJV is based on 9th to 12th century texts. Earlier and better manuscripts do not contain the doxology. One example,more upon request.

    “A great portion of 3 Nephi seems to be "borrowed and lifted" from the KJV Bible. Larson found that 3 Nephi holds exactly the same sort of errors that are unique to the 1769 version of the KJV Bible Joseph Smith owned.”

    The MS discoveries since the KJV have provided a much better understanding of the Sermon on the Mount. Greek MS 200 A.D. thru Latin, Syriac, Coptic and patristic early support, which leads to the original text. These are earlier and better texts of Matthews Sermon on the Mount. There is unanimity support by modern scholars, but The BoM never takes us to a verifiable text in antiquity..

  • NedGrimley Brigham City, UT
    April 25, 2014 10:38 a.m.

    "religion should be kept out of the public square". Interesting concept. What other discussions, topics, beliefs and groups do you feel should be silenced. After all, freedom of speech is only valid for those that want to speak their own mind...right?

  • antodav TAMPA, FL
    April 25, 2014 10:40 a.m.

    This is about as poorly structured and unscientific a poll as I could ever think to create—speaking as a political science major who spent quite a bit of time studying statistics and how polls are created and constructed. But then again, it's about as "scientific" as I would expect coming from the source that it does.

    Admittedly I don't tend to read the Bible as I do other scriptures (frankly other scriptures explain Biblical principles better and more accurately than the Bible itself does), but to put Latter-Day Saints in the same category as agnostics simply because we use other scriptures in addition to the Bible is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

  • Carson Provo, UT
    April 25, 2014 10:43 a.m.

    Speaking in Paris, France on June 4th, Frankfurt, Germany on June 5th, and in Geneva, Switzerland June 6th, 1998, LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley spoke of the Jesus of Mormonism;

    “In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside of the Church who say that Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He, together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages‘” (The Church News, June 20th, 1998, p. 7)

  • happy2bhere clearfield, UT
    April 25, 2014 10:52 a.m.

    Joe Blow
    President Hinckley said we have no argument with any other churches or religions. In fact from what I've seen the leaders of the LDS Church seem to welcome and embrace other believers in God/Christ, and willingly work with them when possible. I'm sure President Monson would agree. If it's good enough for them it's good enough for me, and hopefully all LDS. As for keeping religion out of the public square, from what I've seen lately, the public square is full of pot smokers. That can't be good for society.

    Sharrona
    Joseph Smith when translating recognized the familiar words from his own Bible, and therefore used that as his templet. All of the Book of Mormon as first translated into English had the unique qualities of his known use of language at the time. Nothing suspicious there at all. That studies have shown a change in authorship and style of writing is what is amazing about the Book of Mormon, which proves multiple authors. Joseph could never have accomplished that himself, even if he had thought of it in the first place.

    J

  • librarygirl Idaho Falls, ID
    April 25, 2014 11:03 a.m.

    Great article Stacie!

  • Matthew B. West Jordan , UT
    April 25, 2014 11:35 a.m.

    The organization behind this study has diminished its own credibility by failing to be inclusive of all individuals who read the Bible. This study shows the unprofessional biases of its authors when they dismiss the faith of those who are not Catholic or Protestant.

    In truth, it is the Mormons and Jews who show a high level of Bible literacy, according to a reputable survey conducted by a reputable organization. (Pew Forum, 2010 "U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey)

    It is too bad that prejudice got in the way of this study truly determining what role the Bible plays in the role of Americans today.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    April 25, 2014 11:44 a.m.

    Religion is so self defined and subjective that just about anyone can claim anything and not only not have to offer up proof, but refute any argument to the contrary. If you want to call yourself whatever, that's fine. Whatever the claims, I tend to hear them filtered through the strains of John Lennon singing 'Imagine'.

  • ladler Lewiton, ID
    April 25, 2014 11:53 a.m.

    If you are Jewish or Mormon you are not permitted to attend the private charter school known as "Cornerstone," which I believe has schools across the country, although they will take donations from Mormons and Jews. This is what they told me when I was looking into other alternatives to public school for my daughter.

  • ladler Lewiton, ID
    April 25, 2014 11:55 a.m.

    If you are Jewish or Mormon you are not permitted to attend the private charter school known as "Cornerstone," which I believe has schools across the country, although they will take donations from Mormons and Jews. This is what they told me when I was looking into other alternatives to public school for my daughter.

  • Henry Drummond San Jose, CA
    April 25, 2014 11:56 a.m.

    **sigh**

    This article contains numerous inaccuracies and completely mischaracterizes the ABA report. The American Bible Society is a distinguished organization that is nearly 200 years old. Anyone who actually reads the entire report will find:

    1. It never refer to Mormons as "Bible Haters." The report found a spectrum of opinions about the Bible from "fully engaged" to "skeptical" and Mormons are never identified as being on the negative end. Please read the full report.

    2. The author states, "To the ABS, it doesn't matter that each member of my family has a personal copy of the King James Bible." This is simply not true. In fact the report notes the high ownership of Bibles in Mormon households. Please read the full report.

    3. The ABA does not characterize Mormons and Agnostics as being the same. This is a statistical segmentation of the results by the researchers. It is simply identifying groups of people who had statistically distinct answers. Please read the full report.

    There are plenty of groups who hate Mormons. The ABA is not one of them. This carelessly written article is accusing the wrong people. The Deseret News can and should do better.

  • John Locke Ivins, , UT
    April 25, 2014 11:59 a.m.

    I am a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I'm the only member of my direct line family who is. And, I know what it means to be on "the other side,".

    As Christ taught us in the NT, I love my neighbor, as I would love myself, regardless of their religious beliefs. Never would I stoop to insult their beliefs or their sincerity in their beliefs I love the words of our Fathers who went before us, as Prophets of God. Their lives and how they handled those who would speak against them,re great examples to us all.

    To our Protestant Christian and Catholic friends, I say, "love thy neighbor as thyself," and know that this is what our Savior taught us. Whether you believe as we do, is your choice, but don't denigrate or publicly insult those who have no hatred of you. We are not your enemy, Satan is. Let's join in telling him to get behind us and leave us. After that, let our (Mormons) faith and free agency guide us in our lives. It is not for anyone but Christ to judge.

  • Kimber Salt Lake City, UT
    April 25, 2014 12:06 p.m.

    I also know many Bible believing Mormons and so this in unfortunate. But unfortunately, there is also history of the Mormon church saying that all Christians are an "abomination". I'm so happy this is changing, but change is slow. God Speed!

  • sharrona layton, UT
    April 25, 2014 12:13 p.m.

    RE happy2bhere,A short list of Significant translation errors:

    3 Nephi 13:12, (Jesus)“ deliver us from evil”(KJV). Jesus taught the Nephites an abstract prayer in 34 A.D.? The correct translation, Mt 6:13 NIV is “deliver us from “the evil one”( Satan G,= tou ponerou).

    (H of C, 1844) J S said,“Eloheim is from the word Eloi, God is singular number; and by adding the word heim ,it renders it Gods. Wrong,

    In Hebrew the form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, which normally indicates a masculine plural, however with Elohim the construction is usually grammatically SINGULAR# 430 Strong’s. And in(Gen 1:1 Greek LXX) In the Beginning God (ho theos).Not gods.

    The Textual Problem of Luke 22:43-44, “Blood”, because of the serious doubts to these verses’ authenticity, they are in brackets and noted by Modern translations (ESV,NASB,NIV,NET,NRSV,).. Honest scholars have nothing to hide. see Mosiah 3:7

    "In *Bethlehem in Judea," "for this is what the prophet(Malachi) has written: ".'"( MT 2:5),, Fulfilled Prophecy is what separates the Holy Bible from all other books.. Not*Jersusalem … (Alma 7:10).

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    April 25, 2014 12:58 p.m.

    Henry Drummond,

    "....The ABA does not characterize Mormons and Agnostics as being the same. This is a statistical segmentation of the results...."
    ______________________________

    The following paragraph has how it reads in the report:

    "....No faith/Other faith: Individuals who do not consider themselves Christian
    (including atheists, agnostics and other faiths) Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are also included even if they describe themselves as Christian...."

    The folly of grouping Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses with atheists and agnostics under a category labeled NO FAITH/OTHER FAITH seems so obvious that the editor of the ABS report should have caught how it would read to people. It just goes to show that careful proofreading is critical before publishing whether we’re talking about the American Bible Society or the Deseret News.

  • happy2bhere clearfield, UT
    April 25, 2014 1:01 p.m.

    sharrona

    Do you really believe those things are a valid basis for the untruthfullness of the Book of Mormon? What about all the things written in it that neither Joseph Smith, or anyone else for that matter, could have known? And it was done in a very short period of time. For all the so called errors you claim, there are truths about the Book that far supercede them. And Joseph Smith himself said that if there are any errors in the book they are of man, not of God. Consider this. Try translating the Bible into another language and not have similar errors as you point out with the Book of Mormon. And, the Book of Mormon was translated from an unknown language into English. That's much more difficult than having it come from two known languages, say English to Spanish. The Book required a huge amount of spiritual inspiration and influence from the Holy Ghost to translate, which is much different than what today would be typical translation.

  • antodav TAMPA, FL
    April 25, 2014 1:09 p.m.

    What other Christian organizations are speaks for themselves. During the First Vision Jesus Christ told Joseph Smith that other churches' CREEDS were an abomination in His sight, not the churches themselves. Although, the Book of Mormon speaks plainly about the Great and Abominable Church and it isn't too hard to figure out who Nephi is talking about in a modern context.

    The doctrine of Biblical inerrancy or infallibility is silly and easily disproven by scripture itself instead of history. We respect the right of everyone to believe and practice their religion as they choose but we are not going to be held hostage to nonsensical ideas and man-made creeds in order to be able to affirm our Christianity.

    John Lennon's imagine is essentially advocating communism. It is revealing for a person to state how much he or she admires the words of that song. Personally, I think Paul McCartney was the real talent behind the Beatles.

  • cavetroll SANDY, UT
    April 25, 2014 1:23 p.m.

    @ John Locke

    "To our Protestant Christian and Catholic friends, I say, "love thy neighbor as thyself," and know that this is what our Savior taught us. Whether you believe as we do, is your choice, but don't denigrate or publicly insult those who have no hatred of you."

    The same could be said of your religious brethren. As a Catholic (I am NOT a non-Mormon) who was born and raised in Utah, I can attest to the animosity shown towards me and my family by "Christian" Mormons. But I do agree, "Love thy neighbor as thyself" is simply beautiful. It is the way I have tried to live my life and shown my kids how to live.

    To all people, who cares what others think of your religion? Live it true to yourself, not to others.

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    April 25, 2014 1:32 p.m.

    to There You Go Again

    "If you're not at the table...you're on the menu."

    Possibly the pithiest saying EVER.

  • DenMom Corvallis, MT
    April 25, 2014 1:48 p.m.

    Henry Drummond,
    I'm sighing at your sigh … Don't tell us to read the full report when reading the 64 page document is sufficient to agree with Ms. Duce. In 64 pages, there's no break out of Mormons' answers … they're lumped with those of no faith. Don't defaim her or the Des news … I'm sure you've got some explaining to do to your Mormon supporters, so spend your time fixing relations and then do the survey better next year. I think the results will surprise you and the ABA.

  • Cool Headed Sandy, UT
    April 25, 2014 2:05 p.m.

    "If you were of the world the world would love his own .... " It's ironic that the verse most aptly describing the Evangelical rejection of Mormons as Christians would come from THE BIBLE. John 15:19.

  • J.D. Aurora, CO
    April 25, 2014 3:06 p.m.

    Let's be honest with ourselves. Much of this view is driven by our Churches past negative comments about the Bible. Many of our leaders have claimed the Bible to have been changed so much that it could not be trusted, and even the Prophet Joseph re-wrote much of it. How can we cast stones when people say we hate the Bible today, when our past leaders clearly sent a message that would imply as much? This is just another flip flop moment is it not?

  • teeoh Anytown, KY
    April 25, 2014 3:35 p.m.

    Hugh Drummond,

    I, too, am sighing at your sigh. The author of this article never claimed that the report referred to Mormons as "Bible Haters." Rather, the author specifically mentioned that the "Bible Hater" lingo came from a Christianity Today article headline that discussed this report. Please read the article more carefully.

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    April 25, 2014 4:27 p.m.

    @There You Go Again ... "If you're not at the table...you're on the menu."

    Not if you're the chef.

    There are exceptions to everything.

  • Beaver Native St. George, UT
    April 25, 2014 8:13 p.m.

    As an active member of the LDS Church, I sometimes am just as appalled at the animosity a few of our members express towards other religions as some from other religions express towards us. Thankfully, I believe they are in the minority, but unfortunately they get a lot more than their share of attention. What I see from most active members of our Church is reaching out to find common ground and understanding, rather than knocking other religions. I would think that it probably is the same on the other side of the aisle as well.

  • Linus Bountiful, UT
    April 25, 2014 9:04 p.m.

    Sorry, Scientist, but the official position of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that BOTH the Bible AND the Book of Mormon contain the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Maybe if you were converted and received the Gift of the Holy Ghost it would be easier for you to discern the reverence with which the Saints love the scriptures.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    April 25, 2014 11:50 p.m.

    qcjeep

    "For example, Mormons decide which Mormons can be and should not be considered Mormons. The FLDS are Mormons,"

    That is just incorrect: Mormon is a nickname for a specific denomination; not a religious tradition. I.e. Quaker is a nickname for the Society of Friends who are also protestant. All protestants are NOT Quakers.

    The problem is: there is no nickname for all people who believe in the book of Mormon there is ONLY a nickname for the LDS Church

  • iNKSpot Wilsonville, OR
    April 26, 2014 7:30 a.m.

    This "Bible-hater" reads the Good Book every four years, making it 10 times over the last 40 years. I currently read three chapters a day and am mid-way through 2nd Kings. Some of my kids learned how to read in family scripture study class. One of my daughters could read "feast of the tabernacle of the congregation" by the age of four. Am I weird or what?

  • BYR West Bountiful, UT
    April 26, 2014 10:46 a.m.

    Is American Bible Society the cousin to Westboro Baptists?

  • J.D. Aurora, CO
    April 26, 2014 4:37 p.m.

    @Beaver Native
    I'm sorry BN, but if you think the Church has a history of embracing others beliefs then you have not studied much of our Churche's history. Many of our Prophets have said some horrible things about the catholics and protestants. This view of embarcing other people's beliefs is a farily recent flip flop.

  • HeresAThought Queen Creek, AZ
    April 26, 2014 4:44 p.m.

    @Joe: I firmly disagree with your negative outlook on the LDS faith and religion in general. I find it ironic that one whose position is that religion be out of the public square is here on the web, the most public square of all, all but painting LDS and followers of Christ in general as the most hypocritical. Comments that focus on negative aspects of LDS members, or members of any faith, especially ones formed of straw aren't insightful nor thought-provoking. I'd like to see more comments about Mormons and people of other Christian faiths overcoming barriers in a time when Jesus is the focus of blatant persecution, as are his followers. If the past sits in judgment of the present, there is no future, I believe it was said. A famous Baptist recently spoke at BYU and said that it is likely "we" (Mormons, non-Mormons) will one day likely share a jail cell together because of our faith. I would be proud to share that cell with anyone of any faith where Christ is the center, but I respect other faiths as well. That's my two cents, for what it's worth.

  • Wonder Provo, UT
    April 26, 2014 5:41 p.m.

    Comments like this are why I, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, do not want prayer in school and religion taught by my kids' teachers. I do not think LDS kids living in the Bible Belt should be taught in school that they are not Christian. Similarly, I don't think Baptist kids living in Utah should be taught in school that they are not a member of the true faith. I learned long ago that I'm never going to convince a fundamentalist Christian that I am also a Christian. I can only live my life in the most Christian way possible. Arguing will never convince anyone. I cannot fathom why they don't think LDS are Christians, but I've given up trying to argue with them about it.

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    April 26, 2014 7:31 p.m.

    @J.D. ... Saying horrible things about people either shooting at you or condemning you to eternal perdition for no other reason than your beliefs seems rather tame to me.

    @Wonder ... I can remember praying, as a 1st-grader in class, to God in the name of Christ. Any 'indoctrination' ended at that. One day during drills to survive Russian nukes, I ducked under my desk the wrong way and got 3 stitches for my efforts. Point is, I survive praying, but politics scarred me for life.

    @BYR... Yes, they are related. Distant cousins, not kissing, but family nonetheless. I say this as a former 'evangelical'. One day I woke up and asked myself why the distinction between 'Christian' and 'evangelical Christian'. A few months later I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    @HeresAthought ... re "That's my two cents, for what it's worth." Nice philosophy. I'd put your 2 cents worth about $3.15.

  • pittsaj surprise, AZ
    April 27, 2014 9:16 a.m.

    I don't know anyone who "hates" Mormons; it's just that Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and others like them have very different beliefs about Jesus Christ and his divinity. Jesus was never simply a man like you or me. As Jesus replied to the Jewish elders, Before Abraham was, I AM. In his earthly ministry Jesus said, I and the Father are one.

    A Christian is not just someone who admires or follows the teachings of Christ. A Christian is one who in his heart believes the claims of Christ about himself: that he is God, and has the power to save sinners like myself.

    Jesus saved the dying thief, who may have never entered a synagogue, heard any of the Scriptures read or done any good deed. Yet Jesus said, Today you will be with me in Paradise. The thief was saved because of his confession. I believe in that Jesus.

  • J.D. Aurora, CO
    April 27, 2014 2:12 p.m.

    @Moontan,

    So our ealry leaders mistreatment of others was somehow justified by others mistreatment of them. Have you ever heard of logical fallacies. The one you just used is called tu quoque and is a good example of an invalid argument. The men we should admire are those that care about others in spite of how others treat them don't you think?...Your argument just reaffirms to me that the leaders who we held in such high regard are not really any better than anyone else. Why follow them at all if that is the case?

  • sharrona layton, UT
    April 27, 2014 5:57 p.m.

    RE: Moontan, The distinction between Mormons and 'Evangelical Christians believe God becomes man not man becomes God. E.g…

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God(John (1:1) Versw.,14 And the Word was made flesh.

    God was manifest in the (Jesus)flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory(1Tim 3:16)

    RE: Wonder, why they don't think “LDS are Christians”.

    What’s in a name .“Christian’ Scientists, not all are scientists .They deny the bodily resurrection of Christ. They also ” 1 Deify man: Man can become God(exhaltation). 2. Deny God is one eternally. 3. Minimize sin, Instead of man’s very nature. 4. Ostracize and add to scripture.

    Vs,1John 5:20 ESV) we know that the Son of God has come and has given us(Christians) understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He(Jesus) is the true God and eternal life”.

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    April 27, 2014 6:25 p.m.

    @J.D.... Very familiar with logical fallacies, none of which are present there. I was responding to your "Prophets have said some horrible things". I see we've moved on to 'mistreatment'. Re. "Your argument just reaffirms to me that the leaders who we held in such high regard are not really any better than anyone else. Why follow them at all if that is the case?" If you truly believe that to be the case, I'd recommend you not follow them. I certainly wouldn't if I thought that. But first I'd assess the wisdom of rejecting leaders based upon one post by a virtual stranger.

    @Sharonna ... Why is it anti-or-non-Mormons who use John 1:1 as a 'gotcha' verse almost NEVER include John 1:2? "He was in the beginning with God.…" That's two beings there, friend. Sorry.

  • J.D. Aurora, CO
    April 27, 2014 7:16 p.m.

    @Moontan
    My apologies if my statment came across as mistreatment. That was certainly not my intention. The problem with online post is that it does not allow for the conversational voice that lets someone know a persons spirit. I'm truly sorry. I'm afraid it was not your single post that has caused me to question our leadership. I have stacked so much on my shelf over the past couple of years that it just can't hold any more. My recent study on the BOA (what scholars say versus what Joseph claimed)was enough to show that what I had been taught all my life was just not the least bit true. So, your post really had nothing to do with it and my apologies if I led you to think so. I wish you the very best in your studies and hope you find truth regardless of the source.

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    April 28, 2014 7:25 a.m.

    @J.D... I was referring to your mention of leaders mistreating others, not any mistreatment of me. Your posts are fine. No apology necessary, sir. But to sum ... We're called to rightly divide the word, separate the wheat and chaff, etc. As long as God works through human beings, I expect a certain amount of ridiculousness, nutty beliefs and questionable behavior. I love the Psalms, for example - written by an adulterer and murderer. I reject David's behavior there, but embrace his devotion, his frequent angst. If I ever found myself rejecting a leader because he was, after all, human - then I'd worry about myself. Same with LDS leaders: I can benefit from an apostle's knowledge of Scripture, and not be bothered about his beliefs concerning lunar inhabitants. At one time or another, all of us - all - act and believe as if we are 2 sandwiches short of a picnic. This doesn't diminish our areas of expertise or our callings in life. It just means we're human, ergo sometimes just down right silly. I give LDS leaders the same sort of break I'd want others to give me. 4th post here I think.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    April 28, 2014 9:24 a.m.

    @Moontan,

    RE: John1:2 “The same was in the beginning with God.” Jesus’ eternal existence, with the Father, and eternal deity.

    Verse 3, All things were Made by him… ”( Grk, ginomai)“came into existence.

    E.g..Origen taught the ‘False doctrine’ of pre-existence(Platonic). The Council of Constantinople in 453 CE excommunicated him. 1 Cor. 15:46, The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

    @David repents from his sinful nature. “ I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me”(Psalm 51:5 NLT) “a contrite heart”(Psalm 51:17).JS,

    “I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. (D.H.C. v 6. P 408,409)

  • goosehuntr Tooele, UT
    April 28, 2014 9:59 a.m.

    Ultimately, since the Lord himself knew that "all sorts of fruit would cumber the ground" of His vinyard, or in other words, there would be numerous sects claiming Christ and that confusion would reign after nearly 2000 yrs of the dark night of apostasy, He gave us the tell tell sign of those who would be His true followers... how you could pick them out. He said, " By this ye shall know if ye are my disciples, If ye have love one toward another." I have seen His disciples everywhere, among all sects. He also said "contention is not of me, but of the devil who is the father of contention." Those are a couple of real good clues for both introspection and identifying true disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then we move on to ordinances and their associating covenants and which church has the authority to administer those ordinances... but that is a discussion for another time. A clue though, is that the Apostle Peter was given those keys, so whoever has authority to administer those ordinances must have an unbroken Priesthood line of authority that includes Peter who was given those keys by Christ himself.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    April 28, 2014 11:24 a.m.

    This irrational doctrinal disputation between Christian factions has no end to it.

  • BCA Murrieta, CA
    April 29, 2014 9:07 a.m.

    As someone who lived as a Mormon for 40 years after converting at 17, I would say Mormons are Bible-tolerators not Bible-lovers. When comparing the Bible to the Book of Mormon, the shortcomings of the Bible are always mentioned.

  • Magisterium Dallas, TX
    April 29, 2014 6:52 p.m.

    I still remember the first time I started researching the Mormon Church and saw that the entire King James bibles was linked to the Mormon website I was reading. That was comforting and makes this article seem silly to me.

    Too bad someone could not write a more interesting article on a more meaningful topic such as what Jesus meant when he told Peter that on this rock I will build my church. Or what he meant when he said the gates of Hell will not prevail against the church.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    April 30, 2014 9:30 a.m.

    Mormons do believe in the bible, to the extent that it agrees with their theology. The minute a scripture contradicts their beliefs.... all of the sudden it wasn't translated correctly.

  • A Scientist Provo, UT
    May 1, 2014 11:01 a.m.

    Perhaps we can say that Mormons are not Bible lovers, but fair weather friends of the Bible?