There you go again...Using Science and Common Sense, to argue
Hysteria and emotion.BTW -- Is it just me, or has
the Deseret News taken a rather sudden and much harder far-right turn as
It has been proven and reproven that children do better in a home with both a
Mother and a Father, I don't know why people keep thinking that just
because they want a different lifestyle, that they have to prove what has been
proven over and over again to be false.. I also have worked with children in
our school system for over 30 years, and I can tell you that I support the
statistics that children do much better, when they have a Mother and a Father...
I have seen it with my own eyes, That is the fact, stop trying to change fact
and truth, just because you want something different.
@Betcha The problem is the research does not support your antidotal
experiences. I suspect that would be because the children you see struggling
ccome from single parent homes not same sex couple homes. You are right the
facts are clear but they do not support you.
BetchaWaltham, MASo - you've seen a difference. Great.What do you suggest?We FORCE couples to get married?And then FORCE them to stay married?And FORCE them to be happy with
it?I'm a heterosexual man, married for over 30 years.Raised 4 wonderful kids.Statistically, in the BEST situation imaginable
for kids.I consider myself LUCKY for being in the minority because, most marriages end in divorce.I see the world for what it
is, and ask that people try harder.Others, see the world for what it
isn't, and then want to FORCE people to do what they should.I'm LDS -- I beleive in the Pre-mortal world I chose to follow
Christ, and support his plan of Free Agency - and invite others to do
likewise.Some still think Lucifer had the right idea.
The opinion of the State of Utah about the Regnerus study: "Thus, the
Regnerus study cannot be viewed as conclusively establishing that raising a
child in a same-sex household produces outcomes that are inferior to those
produced by man-woman parenting arrangements."This is part of
the official documentation submitted by Utah in the Kitchen v. Herbert same-sex
marriage appeal.The State of Utah also stated: "As the
State’s briefing makes clear, the State’s principal concern is the
potential long-term impact of a redefinition of marriage on the children of
heterosexual parents. The debate over man-woman versus same-sex parenting has
little if any bearing on that issue, given that being raised in a same-sex
household would normally not be one of the alternatives available to children of
heterosexual parents."In other words, it is not really about the
children - or, at least, not about ALL children, just some children whom the
State cares about, the rest - eh, whatever.
In all States, marriage is prohibited between siblings or close cousins. Why?
They love each other. Are they being discriminated against because they are
forbidden by law to share that love? Doesn't the 14th Amendment protect
them? Just what is the reason for such "outlandish" laws? It's to
protect the children.Those who support same-sex unions tell us that
the children will not be affected. They've told us a lot of things - just
like Obama has. They want the "freedom" to marry someone of the same
sex, no matter the consequences to society or to the children that they adopt or
take into that union from a former marriage. They cherry pick
judges. They cherry pick data. They castigate anything and anyone who presents
data that contradicts what their propaganda machine is feeding us.Children need a man as their father and a woman as their mother to raise them
according to eternal principles. They need the example of a man and a woman to
show them their proper role as human beings. They will not get that in a
The simple fact is that the best way to raise children is in a family with
mother and father. A wide array of statistics (facts) supports this. It is in
society's best interest to support and encourage and strengthen
"traditional" families, and to provide legal protection for newborns to
enter into such a family.
Mr. Richards - You may be unpleasantly surprised to find that marriage is not
prohibited among close cousins in many states. In fact, Utah allows it when
both are over the age of 65 or both are over the age of 55 but one is unable to
reproduce. And while typical legal justifications for such
limitations is based on children, it is not for the reasons you espouse. In
fact, the legal justifications for these marriage limitations rest on the likely
physical impediments that children will suffer from as a result of inbreeding.
I have seen no case law justifying such marriage restrictions based on the
argument that raising the kids in that environment will be harmful to them. But
then again, you could always correct me because you are the self-proclaimed
constitutional expert (despite apparently being completely unaware of the actual
case law and state laws surrounding cousin marriages).
Facts, who needs facts, we should base all laws on religion, well our religion
anyway.Sad, how many refuse to acknowledge that a family is best,
NOT just your idea of a family.
Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahWith all due respect -- You keep insisting Gay couples will ALL have children.Many will
not.FYI -- People marry for love, not just for having sex.People marry for love, not just for having children.I'm sorry
-- But you just can't seem to get past that, or seperate the
to airnaut momments ago...Agreed. Having kids is not a prereq for
getting married or vice versa.Some get married because they want the
tax write off.
The more the traditional marriage proponets argue the weaker their arguments
appear. This is one of the reasons why public opinion has swung so much over
the past 10 years. So many of us know and have seen same sex couples be great
family members, civic leaders, church members, neighbors, business partners and
parents that the lies and distortions told by soical conservatives have become
so evident and irrelevant. Truth, love and respect are winning the social
In what other instance is the Gold Standard the measure of what should be
allowed? Certain exercise regimens yield better results than others; we
don't force people into to abandon all other exercise. What is best for
society is not the basis of law - otherwise we'd forbid smoking and almost
all drinking, require everyone to walk (in bright orange vests) whenever
practical, etc., etc., The standard is "when does an act infringe on someone
else's right to life, liberty and happiness?" My brother in a premortal
existence wanted to force everyone to adhere to the Gold Standard. His plan was
rejected; it infringed on my choice.
Families are primarily structured to raise the children for the next generation.
It is for this purpose that government has given certain perks to families. The
adults of the family need to be unselfish for the outcome of the children to be
good. It is not all about the adults, and adults who don't figure this out
aren't good parents.As the family structure has deteriorated,
the outcome of children has deteriorated, and so has our society as a whole. It is insane to seek the further destruction of the family. Our nations
children are struggling enough now. Blaming schools, the rich, the churches for
the will not solve the problem, because they are not the cause of the problem.
The cause is the disintegration of the family. While it might be
tempting to take offers from those who tell us they can do it better, (the
LGBT), history and science tell us otherwise. Oh that we spent the
energy wasted seeking SSM to strengthen existing traditional families, for the
sake of our country's children.
@Mike Richards - They need the example of a man and a woman to show them their
proper role as human beings. They will not get that in a same-sex union.We're a lesbian couple. We adopted a special needs child who had
been in foster care for a couple of years and pretty much had no chance of being
adopted by a "mom and a dad." IT seems like a lot of "mom and
dad" homes don't want kids with problems who need a loving home. I am at home full-time, my wife works in IT for a big company. We are
now fostering a second child who has been in the system for several years, and
have started adoption process. So have we done the wrong thing for
our kids? Should we stop the adoption process? Should we forget about wanting a
bigger home so we can foster other kids in the future? (We need more bedrooms
and a bigger dining room.)We are stable, hard working, go to a
Church with lots of activies, I am the room mom at school. What more do you
The only thing that we really learn here is that Dr. Rubinfeld doesn't like
what the researchers listed in the editorial “In Our Opinion: A mom and a
dad,” April 6. There are a couple of problems with his critique. First,
academic research can really only be discredited by the legal community through
successful litigation or a conviction. Collectively the legal community does not
have the qualifications to discredit research in other disciplines. The second
issue is treating the editorial as if it were a scholarly work. It is not a
scholarly work it is an advocacy publication. It is unreasonable to expect an
editorial writer to present anything that doesn't prove his or her
point.The final point that I would make is that while the DN
editorial points out issues that are problematic about the methodology used to
generate papers supporting the pro-SSM position, Dr. Rubinfeld just casts
aspersions on the information presented in the editorial.
Stalwart Sentinel,You've made my case. When "harm" can be
shown to the child, that "union" is not allowed. Marrying a sibling or a
1st cousin is know to be harmful to a child. When a child's life is
compromised by the actions of the "parents" that union is not
permitted.LDS Liberal, Open Minded Mormon, airnaut,Before you
tell us what we need to do, please re-read "The Family: A Proclamation to
the World". It clearly tells us that marriage is between a man and a woman.
That is the word of God through His prophets. He makes no exceptions. He is
no "respector" or persons. Candied Ginger,Thank you
for "adopting" someone who was rejected by others. What are you going
to teach that child about his/her role in life? Are you going to tell him/her
that the proper role includes procreation? Are you going to tell him/her that
procreation is only allowed in marriage? Are you going to tell him/her that
procreation is between a man and a woman and that any form of sex outside of
that union is improper?
Haven't seen very much "sound science" coming from the Deseret News
these last few years.
Thank you Mr. Rubenfield. Politics can be a soul-destroying
endeavor. It is especially troubling when so-called religious organizations and
those touting religious devotion, claiming high moral standards, get mixed up in
the lies/misrepresentations in supporting various causes. Why do we
continually go down a path to justify positions and practices using sketchy and
flimsy arguments that can't be substantiated? It can be
faith-destroying for secular AND religious institutions.
@Mike Richards:Thanks for asking. We are showing both kids their
"proper role in life" is to love others and be fierce in the face of
injustice. They have a grandpa and grandma and aunts and uncles (some blood,
some choice) and already see some people have kids biologically, some (my
sister) choose to never have kids, and some adopt.We are active in
the UU church which has a great human sexuality curriculum. Ours are too young
for that, but we use proper words for body parts and have talked about
orientation as appropriate (some people are attracted to opposite, some to same,
some to both.) I'm a stay at home mom, my wife works but they spend time
with all the relatives and see how it works in other families and situations.
We are open about where babies come from and the problems of having
children when you are not married - they know the importance of marriage for all
parents, gay or lesbian or straight and that's why we support it.Thanks for being supportive.
@Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahLDS Liberal, Open Minded
Mormon, airnaut,Before you tell us what we need to do, please re-read
"The Family: A Proclamation to the World". It clearly tells us that
marriage is between a man and a woman. That is the word of God through His
prophets. He makes no exceptions. He is no "respector" or persons. ======== And "I" believe that to be true.BUTWhy do you keep insisting on making that the Law of the
Land?Tell me Mike -- Is that "Constitutional"?Also --
What makes you any different than the muslim extremeists we are fighting
and dying for, for implementing their Sharia Law in the Muslim World?
Open minded Mormon... I don't care if your a mormon or not, I did not say
anything about couples that get divorced... pay ATTENTION, I said, that
children that are raised with a Mother and a Father in the traditional Family..
.. Children that come from divorce are not children being raised by a Mother and
a Father in the home.. children from divorce suffer just as much as other
children that come from what we like to call MOdern Families...
Candied Ginger,Okay, you have an extended family who will help, but
what are YOU going to tell your child about the proper role of a man and a
woman? Are you going to teach that child that God has told us that marriage is
between a man and a woman? (You told us that you are active in your church.
Does that church preach the true word of God, or does it teach something else?
I'm assuming that you have Genesis 1:27-28 in your Bible and that you have
Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:26-28.) How will that child "feel" about a
"parent" who teaches them the opposite of what the Bible teaches? Will
that "scar" the child? What do "sociologists" tell us about
children who have "caught" their "parents" teaching something
other that the complete truth?I have eight children. I also had
many relatives who helped. I never had to tell them to do as I said and not as
I did. I never had to tell them that the Bible was wrong or that God just
didn't understand our times.
It seems to me that same-sex couples have opted out (or have been opted out) of
the child-rearing part of Nature; therefore, it makes no Natural sense to give
children to same-sex couples.
Re: ". . . to claim . . . that 'girls in a home with homosexual fathers
had a 15 percent chance of graduating . . .' is . . . scientifically
unsound . . . ."While we're on the subject of unsound, your
political argument is -- unsound.The only issue before the Court is
whether a rational basis exists for Utah's Amendment 3. Since homosexual
marriage is not a fundamental right, if it's true that kids are
disadvantaged by being raised in a homosexual home, that's as far as the
Court need go to decide the issue.On the other hand, if it were true
that girls raised by Mormons are less likely to graduate from college, while
that would also be a rational basis for discriminatory action against Mormons,
freedom of religion [fortunately] is a fundamental right. So a mere rational
basis would be insufficient to uphold religious discrimination. For that, the
Court would apply a strict scrutiny standard, likely prohibiting
discrimination.The soundness or unsoundness of science, however, is
based solely on facts. If, in fact, girls are 15% disadvantaged in homosexual
homes, the science is sound. It's liberal politics that bear close
examination.Because they're unsound.
@Mike Richards"In all States, marriage is prohibited between siblings
or close cousins."Roughly half of states allow marriage between
cousins. "Are they being discriminated against because they are
forbidden by law to share that love?"Possibly, I just don't
care about those people."Those who support same-sex unions tell
us that the children will not be affected."Unlike sibling
couples, same-sex unions can't make children on their own (the source of
the perceived harm to children in those sibling unions), and so the only way to
get children for a same-sex couple is through some alternative means. Since we
let single people use in-vitro fertilization or adopt, we've determined
there's not sufficient harm to the children involved so the only logical
consistency is to allow same-sex marriage. Plus there's really not much of
any proof that same-sex couples children are harmed and if there is well...
it's the same statistical averages that say children of poor parents of
black parents score worse on average on the SAT. Want to ban those marriages
too, you know... to be consistent?
@Mike Richards"Are you going to teach that child that God has told us
that marriage is between a man and a woman?""Does that church
preach the true word of God, or does it teach something else?"You should probably just wiki unitarian universalism. Besides, who is going to
say their own religion isn't true or most true? "What do
"sociologists" tell us about children who have "caught" their
"parents" teaching something other that the complete truth?"They cry over Santa not existing and feel somewhat betrayed. Here's
the problem though... there's a difference between being wrong and lying. I
think your religion is wrong, but I don't think you're lying when you
make a religious assertion; I just think you're wrong. I left your church
because I thought it was wrong and didn't want to lie (since for me it
would be lying if I asserted things I didn't believe were true as opposed
to you who can't be lying since you sincerely believe it). This would apply
to others of other faiths who believe what they say but end up being wrong, they
Two reasons I'm proud of this letter, The writer has the education and the
guts to say his opinion! And frankly I'm surprised it was published by the
DN, but I'm proud that they finally did it! We just can't live on
half truths espoused by so many.
@Mike Richards:Oh, I see what you are asking. We are
teaching our children that the Bible is a collection of stories and poetry an
ancient tribe used to establish their identity as a nation - like the stories of
Rome or Greece or China. In our home we tell stories about David and Goliath,
and Coyote and Thor and the Monkey King and other myths. Some are fun, most are
teaching parables. We talk about Bible teachings - some are
universal teachings (Good Samaritan, Golden Rule, etc). Our Church includes
Christians, as well as Buddhists, Pagans and others.Our family uses
the Tao Te Ching as our inspirational text, as well as teachings from the Dali
Lama. My wife leans to Buddhism. So there is no conflict about what we teach our
children - we have a big emphasis on respect and how you treat others. The kids see us involved in activities that help others, things that matter in
real ways. They don't see a conflict between what we do and what we teach
and the biggest teaching in the Bible is "Do unto others," which we try
Mike Richards,Do you shun clothes made of mixed fabrics? Do you
stone to death disobedient children? Do you think it's a sin for a man to
shave his face? The Bible teaches us these things, too. Isn't the Bible
"the word of God"?Look, every Christian picks and chooses
the parts of the Bible that work for them and disregard the parts that
don't, and that includes you. You can't lecture Candied Ginger on
what God really wants without coming off as a hypocrite. I know this is a
concept you struggle with on these boards, but it is possible to believe in God
(and revere the Constitution, while we're at it) without necessarily
agreeing with you. No, really...
The 'Modern Family' is not funny. It is a tragedy.Utefan60"Two reasons I'm proud of this letter, The
writer has the education and the guts to say his opinion!"But
the writer of the original piece did the same thing, yet you aren't proud
of that ;etter.Total hypocrisy!Robert - Right on! What
is next for the LGBT? Demand the state repeal the law of gravity?
Mr. Richards - You failed to grasp the rather simple point of my post which is
the harm that often is used to legally justify marriage restrictions among
siblings/cousins is based on the physical impediments that are likely to result
in the bearing of children, not the rearing of those children. The
argument you make, which is that harm is caused during the rearing of children,
has never been convincing in the court of law, hence all the recent losses your
side has suffered in the gay marriage debate when you drone on and on about
"think of the children." Further, the reason cousins can often marry
once they are past the age of being able to bear children is proof positive of
this because it is likely that one or both may already have children at that
stage but the state is not convinced there will be any harm at the
"rearing" stage of that child's life. It's very
important you and other conservatives understand this basic concept because
you'll soon be living in a Nation wherein SSM is the law of the land and
you'll need to comprehend the world you live in.
@Mike Richards, Funny that you refuse to answer the original question. Ginger
has a family structure that even I am envious of. Good grief, I bet she makes
her kids Halloween costumes and has never seen a McDonalds drive thru, talk
about a great mom! But you look right past all the positive and reaffirming
aspects of her family and strike out at her and her wife because they don't
match up with YOUR version of the bible and religion. So answer the original
question Mike? They have taken in children that all of YOU did not want.
Created by heterosexuals and tossed aside, only to lanquish in foster care
because there was no line of 'good' Christians waiting to take them
home, so would you have those kids stay in foster care until they age out (at
which time many of these kids end up on the street) or now that they've
known what a loving home and family are, to please all you 'good and
kind' Christians, should they give them back? You know, for the 'good
of the kids'. The same kids that none of you wanted.
Wow!Looking through all the comments and noticing how many out of
state posters there are.... Why would someone living in another state care what
a "Mormon" Newspaper happen to say about gay marriage.The
letter writer makes some interesting points, it does matter what type of family
a child is raised in.Here is the point I would like to make. Right
now all you pro gay posters are correct, there is no definitive data that says
that gay couple has a good or bad affect on a child. That is mostly because up
until the past decade, there has never really been an in depth research done on
this issue.I know for a fact, that having a gay couple as your
parents, does have a negative impact on what the child goes through in school.
Don't just blame the parents, it is not always their fault, because
children are brutally honest with each other and it can cause all types of
problems for children raised by gays couples.Not saying it is right
or wrong, just the way it is.
@ConfusedBecause this case has national implications. Also, the
conversation here is mostly polite. I don't know why some things are
censored, though. If my kids are bullied because they have two
mommies, that says a lot about the parents of the other kids in the class and
what they are teaching their children. Kids are honest, but if they have
prejudice they are leaning it from home and church, or from other kids who
learned it from home or church. I work hard with my oldest to be
nice to and about all the kids in her class. @BendanaLOL! My kids get McDonalds sometimes. Usually when we have too much going on
or I am being lazy. This year they got homemade Halloween costumes, but only
because we have friends who dress up for comic book conventions, and they
convinced our parents group that making costumes for the kids would be fun... my
kids went dressed as "Mommy Is Not A Crafter" and "Mommy's Hot
Glue Disaster." It was fun and we'll probably do it again if our
friends are up for it. But thanks for being sweet.
@Ginger, that is priceless!! Blessings to you and yours.
Wow confused, I don't know where your kids go to school but at my
son's high school here in Washington, Eastern Washington mind you, red as
red as red gets politically, the young lady with two dads got the loudest
applause at senior night. I'm not naive enough to think bullying never
happens here, but kids from all kinds of families get bullied unfortunately,
however to make a blanket statement that all kids from same sex families have
that issue IS naive and a little scandal mongerish.
Oh how precious, gays promoting gays. The sociology "teacher" should be
as knowing as anybody about the validity of "science", where you go out
an try to prove what you want to believe. There is no valid long term evidence
one way or the other, and you can't be accurate when you are always
adjusting the standard. Funny how society has evolved. As we all get
the blessing of knowing, being related to, or being friends with a homosexual,
we get to develop sensitivities. 75 percent of society would defend and tolerate
murder, if their child or best friend were the guilty party. Thats what we are
facing here, just bigger numbers. The problem is that right and wrong are still
right and wrong, and society is going to have to come to grips with that. We are
no longer dealing with the idea of rounding up gays and banishing them to their
own island. now we are all about bestowing special right for them, and that
isn't the answer.
@HaHaHaHa: "75 percent of society would defend and tolerate murder, if their
child or best friend were the guilty party."When a loved one
commits a crime like murder there is shock and disbelief and even, at times, a
claim they didn't do it. But when it is shown that they did do it there is
no sudden desire to defend or tolerate the act of murder, as you claim. Trust me on this. I've been there. Twenty-five years later there is
still grief for the lives lost - including the one who will die in prison. But
there is no defense of or tolerance for what was done. Trust me.
@Stormwalker Welcome to the 25%. And yes, I could be wrong, I am just
throwing a number out there. But don't deny there are many who's
sympathies, morals and ideals change when your close to the situation, and your
friend and loved one is in the wrong.