David believes that corporations are people.Does hobby lobby also
have the right to bear arms?
Which religion should government promote?
It seems the author of this letter, David Wood, has forgotten the meaning of
"religious freedom" of the Constitution; Marriage, David, is not only
something YOUR religion gets to practice, but the FREEDOM to marry LGBT couples
is ALSO a "religious freedom" and there are MANY religions that believe
it is perfectly okay. Imposing your religious beliefs on others who believe
differently, certainly qualifies as a violation of the religious beliefs of
others.Additionally corporations are NOT PEOPLE and have absolutely
NO BELIEFS religious or otherwise. The owners of businesses do not get to
determine the actions of their employees, which would constitute a violation of
the religious freedom of the employees.
Hobby Lobby is not an individual. It does not have personal rights.
Oh, where to start, where to start…Is the Ghestapo showing up
at Sacrament Meeting?Can Missionaries Proselyte?Can we build and
attend Church and Temples?This hyperbole from the Chicken
Little's on the Right astound me.For crying out loud -- Hobby
Lobby is a BUSINESS – Not a Religion!And what if a certain
religion you may not agree with FAVORS Same Sex Marriage?, – Do you still
support THEIR Constitutional rights to perform SSM?The truth is that
those who complain about secularism ARE often the narrow-minded and are
discriminating.We are living in a day that individual rights,
religious rights are not tolerated by those who claim to be the most religious.
I also hope that the nation can be united under the Constitution and
that all of us can live without fear for what we believe in.I also
look forward to having this letter writer’s 110% support of an Islamic
Cultural Center in New York City, and a 7’ statue of Bophamet at the
Oklahoma State Capitol.BTW -- When the semi-annual LDS General
Conference can no longer be broadcast, streamed, or printed -- call me.
"Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood have to go to court to defend their
religious right to avoid dispensing particular kinds of contraceptives."And isn't it wonderful that differences of opinion can be settled
in court rather than on the battle field. That is the blessing of the
Constitution."Federal judges have overturned states’
rights in deciding what marriage is." Federal judges also
overturned states rights in choosing who can attend certain schools depending on
the color of their skin. Was that a bad thing?"If religion and
those that support religion do not comply with secularism they are labeled as
narrow minded, bigots, and discriminators." They are only
labeled that way by other narrow minded bigots. My experience is that when I
stand up for what I believe in most people applaud my convictions rather than
call me names. Regardless of what others say, stand firm in what you believe and
never believe that might is greater than right. As long as people of faith live
by the precepts of their religion without joining in with name calling and
accusations, our religious freedom will not be lost. Courage in your
convictions will always be the right choice.
People own businesses and therefore the people who own business have the rights,
Hobby Lobby is NOT being required to "dispense" birth control or
anything else that violates the leadership's religious beliefs. They are
being required to provide health insurance that meets a minimum, national
standard for everyone that includes birth control coverage. To take
it to the other extreme, should I as an employer be able to demand that my
employees ONLY get coverage for birth control and refuse to pay for insurance
that covers pregnancy and child birth? Conservatives love to scream
about not putting government in between you and your doctor or government making
personal decisions for you, but then love to shove their religion or their
corporation in your personal decisions.
The author acknowledges that the government is forbidden from favoring one
religion over another and then complains that it is secular in nature. What is
government supposed to be if it is to remain religiously neutral? I
maintain that what some believers are decrying is really loss of privilege, not
loss of freedom. Religion, particularly of the Christian persuasion, has long
enjoyed privileges of status and influence in this country that were always in
violation of our Constitution. They just never got challenged...until knowledge
and information began making significant inroads on religions' truth
claims. More and more now, it is not enough to say that one's belief is
religious. A demonstration of the validity of the belief is now being required
as well. When this cannot be demonstrated, the privilege is lost. As it should
Liberals demand that we keep religion out of their government but love to put
their government in other people's religion and that is what this issue is
all about; forcing government into other people's religious beliefs.
Ever hear the expression, 'The devil made me do it?' In the upside
down logic of this letter titled, "Religious Intolerance," it's not
the devil, it's 'God made me do.' I will agree to your version of
'religious freedom' the same day that you agree that I can deny you
employment because of your religion - and healthcare. Sound like a deal?
Why do people that don't think God exists or don't think he cares one
way or the other get to enforce there morals on people but religious people
can't? Double standard there.
higvDietrich, IDWhy do people that don't think God exists or
don't think he cares one way or the other get to enforce there morals on
people but religious people can't? Double standard there.7:45
a.m. March 25, 2014=========== My God told me his plan
would be to allow Free Agency.There would be good things, and bad things
-- but we would be free to choose for ourselves.Another stood
up and said his plan was better than God's.He said there would be no
Choice by the indiviual, that everyone would do what he told them, and that he would only choose good things for them.My God said
NO.I say Freedom to Choose.and keep businesses out of
peoples's lives, and Don't allow Businesses to hide and coward
behind Religious Freedom.Hobby Lobby is a Business - not a
religion.Contraception aside -- This will could set a very
nasty precidence if Hobby Lobby wins.There will be no telling what
other "rights" Businesses will have over real people, ironically
-- using their new found "Constitutional Rights" as
"people" and Religion as their new weapon of choice.
fas·cism [ fá shìzzəm ]"1.dictatorial movement:
any movement, ideology, or attitude that favors dictatorial government,
centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and
extreme nationalism."Sounds like the left to me of which their war on
religion is a part.
So, how can one say Hobby Lobby should be given license to practice their
religion, and in the same breath decry Sharia Law?
When the government violates the Constitution by requiring us to buy insurance,
why wouldn't it violate the Constitution by establishing a State religion?
The government believes in abortion, why wouldn't it have as doctrine of
that "religion" to prohibit birth or to destroy life before the baby is
born?Once, we held higher beliefs. Once, we, as a nation, believed
in God. Once, we knew how sacred life was. Once, we knew that government was
instituted to protect all life: "We hold these truths to be
self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their
Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and
the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are
instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the
governed,"Now, the government tells us to pay to stop new life;
that they will fine us if we don't pay for contraceptives; that they will
fine us if we don't accept their religion of abortion on demand.The 1st Commandment clearly states: "Thou shalt have no other gods before
me." The government believes differently.
Thid Barker 8:13 a.m.:A lot of religious conservatives want to
rewrite the law to force others to live by their beliefs (i.e. the demand for a
constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.) Show me an example
of how people are forced to use birth control against their will...
@ Thid Barker, some would say your definition of fascism could apply to
organized religions.... It is certainly NOT what our government is pursuing,
despite the rhetoric of the right wing.
@ Darrel. You have it backwards. The constitution gives Hobby Lobby owners the
right to practice THEIR religion, without being forced to practice your
religion."Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". These two clauses make up what
are called the "Religion Clauses" of the First Amendment.
Very eloquently put Karen and also correct.Religious intolerance, is
taught by religion.The opposite of intolerance is understanding, not just
tolerating another group.Mountanman said: "People own businesses
and therefore the people who own business have the rights, duh!"While the idea that "the people who own business have the rights"
should be the republican motto... No. They have the privilege to operate a
business, under specific conditions, for which they petition the local or
national government for permit or license to do so, and agree to certain rules
of safety or conduct.Religion is a belief, and your personal right,
that is all.It does not grant you special rights over others who
don't share your "beliefs"
Ah yes, the always faithful “secularism is a religion” argument. Couple of points – first, you do realize the Constitution is a
wholly secular document, don’t you David?Second, being secular
simply means not being religious. To equate those two is a contradiction in
terms (i.e., it violates the logical law of non-contradiction). Think about it this way – if we label a collection of beliefs (say, in
santa claus, the tooth fairy, and the easter bunny) as fantasies, would you say
that someone who does NOT believe in those things is somehow still practicing a
fantasy?Or would it make any sense to say that because you do not
practice astrology, you are a believer in non-astrology? When the
government passes laws that are purely secular, they are doing precisely what
the Founders intended. If you prefer a government do otherwise, there’s a
whole bunch of countries in the middle eastern part of the world you may want to
Mike Richards: "Once, we held higher beliefs. Once, we, as a nation,
believed in God. Once, we knew how sacred life was. Once, we knew that
government was instituted to protect all life:" Except for slaves and
all other ethnic groups, Women and Children, Native Americans, Mother Nature
etc...So you mean white anglo saxon christians, right?"We
hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they
are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these
are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--Not in the Constitution
Mike, but penned the same time and by the same folks who believed in the above
and "Manifest Destiny""The 1st Commandment clearly
states: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." The government
believes differently.Please explain what this means since our government
is us and we them.
Mike -- that is an out right lie!The Government does not believe in
abortion.The Government believes in a right to Privacy.(or at
least did before Bush trampled it with his Patriot Act)It is also
reflected in the original Utah Motto: "Mind your own business!"If the Government "forces" your wife to have an abortion -- call
me.If the Government "forces" your daughter-in-law to take birth
control -- call me.Yet, You have no problem letting a Business
tell your wife, daughter and others what sorts of healthcare options a Doctor
has at his desecration to use to heal?I'm against Psychotropic
medications and drugs containing alcohol in them. I feel they are
violating the Word of Wisdom.Do you see me out whining and pitching
a fit over MY Religious rights being in jeopardy by Obamacare for that?IMHO – Businesses [and individuals] need to mind their own
Just how is it that hobby lobby has a religious right to 'dispense' a
particular kind of contraceptive, or not? They're definitely overstepping
their bounds, and make the best argument for a single payer health care system
yet. After all, as the first lady pointed out, the inherent dignity accrues to
every person on earth; she doesn't mention craft stores among those having
power to overturn those rights or somehow to act as health providers. As for
federal judges, they're just protecting individuals' freedom from
tyrannical states, like Utah. And why do we even have a 'national prayer
breakfast'? We are living in a world, and society, of individual rights.
Among those rights, individually, is freedom of religion. Individually.
Collectively, the nation can be united under the constitution and live without
fear for what we believe in. Or fear of, or subjection to what anyone else
Let's see, the government says Hobby Lobby must fund health coverage that
includes the option of contraceptives, something that its owners oppose. And the
government required me to pay taxes to fund the Iraq War, something I opposed.
It doesn't force Hobby Lobby owners to use contraceptives nor did it force
me to go to war. Still, I was legally required by law to pay taxes that funded
the war and Hobby Lobby is required by law to fund health coverage that includes
the option of contraceptives.Imagine the chaos if everyone with a
different belief gets to tell government "I refuse to pay for this or
@Mountanman@ Darrel. You have it backwards. The constitution gives Hobby
Lobby owners the right to practice THEIR religion, without being forced to
practice your religion."Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". These
two clauses make up what are called the "Religion Clauses" of the First
Amendment.================The owners can practice their
religion. No one is forcing them to take contraceptives. But they cannot force
their religion on me. My church has made no authoritative declaration against
their use. Those that work in retail often do so because they do not
possess another , more valuable skill. As such, they often lack the bargaining
power to only work for a company that will provide them with the care they need.
To argue that a business owner (in this case a corporation, so he
no personal assets at stake) can impose his religious views on me, an employee
is the same thing as saying that should allow Sharia Law. After all, it is
religious freedom; an absolute right. Or are there to be reasonable
restrictions placed on it?
The words "Separation of Church and State", are not mentioned anywhere
in the Constitution. The words, "Congress shall make no Law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" In
other words, Congress cannot establish a state church like England has. These words,from the First Amendment, have been contorted every which
possible to restrict religion. If the owners of Hobby Lobby don't want to
pay for the contraception mandate due to their religious beliefs, and they
wholly own the company, according to the First Amendment, that is their right.
I shouldn't have to pay for contraception because my wife and I are past
the traditional child bearing age. I also should have to pay for the maternity
care mandate because it is physically impossible for us to have babies again.
Prior to Obama Care I could drop maternity care from my insurance, no problem.
Cost goes down. Since the advent of Obama Care, I have to pay for it. It costs
me more for stuff I don't need. Kind of ironic since Obama Care was
supposed to lower insurance costs.
Those who say secularism is a religion need to look up the definition of
religion. Religion is subscribing to beliefs based on a deity, deities, the
divine, faith, and, or, the supernatural. Secularism does not fit any of those
Missing is that if a business offers its services to the entire public, it is a
public accommodation. As such, it is not a religious activity and thus may not
discriminate. To take any other approach would mean chaos in our socieity and a
loss of our freedom as Americans.@ Flashback, go back to the concept
of "We the people". We have a joint responsiblity for the overall good
of our society. You argument is like those who say "I don't have lots
of kids so why should I have to pay property taxes." It's about the
common good. And as for Obamacare, overall it has helped, despite the
propaganda from the GOP (which still has nothing to offer after four years.).
Not interested in Hobby Lobby, that's a red-herring.I'm
concerned with the concept of "religious intolerance" in general.When religious people are intolerant of those who aren't religious
(or practice a different religion)... that's wrong. When non-religious
people are intolerant of people who are religious... that's wrong. And
that's what this is about (not Hobby Lobby).====The
Preamble of the Constitution sets out the origin, scope and purpose of the
Constitution.Pay special attention to the actions/verbs they
used.FORM a more perfect Union, ESTABLISH Justice, INSURE domestic Tranquility, PROVIDE for the common defense, PROMOTE the general Welfare, SECURE the Blessings of Liberty to
ourselves and our Posterity"...IMO it's clear the
Government does not GIVE us our liberty or any inalienable rights. These
rights are natural and exist even if we didn't have a Federal Government in
Washington. The government in Washington exists to SECURE them for
us, and to PROTECT them for us. not to TAKE them from us... or limit them.Free exercise of religion is one of these rights. Government should
SECURE that for us, not prevent it.Free contraception is not a
Steve C. WarrenWEST VALLEY CITY, UTLet's see, the government
says Hobby Lobby must fund health coverage that includes the option of
contraceptives, something that its owners oppose. And the government required me
to pay taxes to fund the Iraq War, something I opposed. It doesn't force
Hobby Lobby owners to use contraceptives nor did it force me to go to war.
Still, I was legally required by law to pay taxes that funded the war and Hobby
Lobby is required by law to fund health coverage that includes the option of
contraceptives.Imagine the chaos if everyone with a different belief
gets to tell government "I refuse to pay for this or that."9:16 a.m. March 25, 2014========== Steven makes and
EXCELLENT arguement here!I wish I had 25 likes and a flashing Gold
Star for this one.Thanks!
Hobby Lobby has no right to choose for people what it's owner's
believe. An employee can choose birth control or choose not to participate in
it. This is the problem with this issue...what IS and what is NOT religion.
Birth control for women is NOT a religion. Obviously, some women may CHOOSE to participate or not with birth control due to their religion, but
that is nobody's business but theirs.
Flashback 9:36 a.m.:And I don't have any need for treatment of
age-related ailments like arthritis or heart disease, yet the payments I make to
my insurance company are still used to cover those who do. That's how
Denying rights to a corporation is just a clever way of denying rights to the
people who have the audacity to run a corporation. No one is being forced to
work for or do business with that corporation. Therefore a corporation cannot
deny its employees or its customers their religious freedoms. If you don’t
like a company’s values, don’t work there. Don't use their
products. But don't presume the right to demand that they run things your
way.The government’s role is to tolerate differing
views—not to approve of one religious view while rejecting another. The
only position the government should have regarding gay marriage is to not punish
those who do it. But the minute that our government rewards gays for marrying,
the government has taken a side. The government will have established that the
millions who religiously oppose gay intimacy are wrong and are to be ignored and
Hobby Lobby is just making the case for moving away from employer-based
insurance to single-payer.It will be interesting to see what the
Court decides. On the one hand, this court has sided with corporations on many
issues and is considered to be very "corporate-friendly." On the other
hand there Scalia wrote in Employment Division v Smith:"Conscientious scruples have not, in the course of the long struggle for
religious toleration, relieved the individual from obedience to a general law
not aimed at the promotion or restriction of religious beliefs. The mere
possession of religious convictions which contradict the relevant concerns of a
political society does not relieve the citizen from the discharge of political
responsibilities.Subsequent decisions have consistently held that
the right of free exercise does not relieve an individual of the obligation to
comply with a valid and neutral law of general applicability on the ground that
the law proscribes (or prescribes) conduct that his religion prescribes (or
proscribes)."Lastly, if this were an issue involving something
basic to men's health, there would be no debate about access and coverage.
RE: one vote... "Which religion should government promote"?Did anybody say ANY religion should be promoted by the Government?Total strawman... and the second comment on the topic!At
least give somebody time to say what you ASSUME they are thinking!===Fact is.. Religious people don't think the government
should PROMOTE any religion... just stay out of the way.===I do not want my religion promoted by the Federal Government. I do not
expect them to promote any religion. Just don't make laws that require me
to violate my religious beliefs!I don't care if a person of a
different religion gives the prayer at a public meeting I am attending...
It's happened hundreds of times... it doesn't offend me. But do not
PROHIBIT prayer of any kind under the pretense of protecting me from hearing
someone of another religion praying. It doesn't bother me. I don't
think it bothers any religious person. They like their liberty, they like that
others have that same liberty.The only people prayer at public
meetings offends... is liberal leftists (not religious people, even if they
aren't of the same faith).
@airnautWe elect government officials to run the military. It is their
responsibility to determine when war is necessary. If we don't like their
reasoning, we don't vote for them. Regardless, we are obligated, via taxes,
to support the military's actions whether we agree with their decisions or
not. We do NOT however, elect government officials to run our
businesses. When government makes laws that attempt to run our businesses, we
are fools to not push back.
David, funny thing about religious liberty in the United States. It protects
your right to decide what religion you will practice and how and when you will
practice it. What it doesn’t do is allow you to force your religion on
anyone outside of yourself. Utah’s amendment 3 is an example of
“you” attempting to force your religion on others. Hobby
Lobby’s claim is not about protecting the religious freedom of the owners;
they have that. What Hobby Lobby wants is the “right” to force their
religious beliefs and views on to their employees. Hopefully the SCOTUS will see
that and rule appropriately.
I see 2 entirely separate things happening here.2 different relationships
going on...1. Business/Employer/Employee2.
Healthcare/Doctor/PatientHobby Lobby is NOT giving any prescriptions
to any of it's Employees!Rather -- it is dictating an entirely
different and separate business [Healthcare] on how they can or can not
operate.For Hobby Lobby to tell a Doctor what he/she can prescribe,
Is like a Doctor telling Hobby Lobby what they can or can’t sell for
Scrapbooking.A Doctor might object to scissors or glue and site his
Hippocratic oath.It's really that simple.And
ironically -- "Religious Freedom" being used by this business is
the sledge hammer destroying "Religion" for actual citizens.So long as you conservatives keep saying "Businesses ARE people" and
protect via the Constitution, and so long as they are intertwined like
that -- So, When a business looses [and they will] Religious Freedom
-- so will the REAL people!
@RAB"Therefore a corporation cannot deny its employees or its
customers their religious freedoms. If you don’t like a company’s
values, don’t work there."That's not much different
than imposing Sharia law on a state or nation and saying if you don't like
the state or country's values, don't live there.
What's happened in West Jordan? The writer says nobody has any religious
rights left! Out here in Bountiful the Catholics held a big spaghetti dinner for
the whole town, the Lutherans and Baptists meet across the street from each
other, the Mormon parking lot is full, and there are no gov't thugs in
sight anywhere! If the churches are shuttered and religious people's mouths
are duct-taped in West Jordan, we should all be very alarmed....
The sooner we officially define "atheism" and "secularism" as
religions, the better. If a religion is a system of beliefs, they certainly
No one is forced to use contraceptives, yet Hobby Lobby is forced to fund the
use of contraceptives. That is a violation of their right to run their business
and to practice their religion as they wish. Nothing in business licensing
forces a business to pay for a product that it does not want and does not
believe is good; but, the government has decided that IT will decide what is
good for us and that IT will force us (businessmen) to fund what IT thinks is
good for us.Where in the Constitution did the people give government
that power? It's not there. Section 8 of Article I lists the only things
for which the federal government can require us to pay for through taxes.
Contraceptives are not on that list. Insurance is not on that list. Nothing
that Obama is trying to do with ObamaCare is on that list.The only
question that is valid is whether the government has the right to require
businesses to use their money to provide anything that is not on that list of 17
enumerated duties that the people have assigned to Congress.
2 bits: "I don't care if a person of a different religion gives the
prayer at a public meeting I am attending..."----------------So, you would not be offended by a Wiccan praying to her Goddess, or a
Satanist praying to the devil? Really? Those are religions that are practiced
here in the US. I just can't see you sitting there smiling as
a Satanist calls on the devil to attend a meeting and influence the thoughts and
actions of the people attending there. Have you thought of that?
@Darrel 9:17,Hobby Lobby is not forcing their religion on you...#1... you don't work for them, so what they do has absolutely no affect
on you.#2... even IF you worked for them... You can buy your own
contraceptives, can't you?===Contraceptives
aren't expensive. People used to buy them with their own money all the
time. Every drug store has them, no prescription required, just a little cash.
I don't see why now it's your employer's obligation to provide
them to you for free.===IMO we should end this attitude
that everything we want for our health MUST be provided by our employer (or
insurance).Some of it you're going to have to do (and maybe
even pay for) YOURSELF.They can't exercise for us. They
can't feed us the right foods. They can't control our lifestyle.
They should not be expected to pay for every decision we make.Some
things we may have to do for ourselves. Buying our own contraceptives may just
be one of those things...===Free contraceptives is not
an inalienable right.===HL will probably loose the case.
No problem here.The topic is "religious tolerance"... not
Remember when providing health insurance for employees was a choice, not the
government? Remember when an employer could decide to pay for the
employee's insurance but the employee would have to pay for his
family's coverage? So long as liberals keep saying businesses
are not made up of individuals who are people and state controls and determines
what a business can or can not due, then we have the totalitarian socialist
society where the state controls the means of production and what is produced.
A corporation is simply a legal means for a group of people to
operate as a business. A business license is simply a legal means to collect
fees (taxes) from those who operate as a business. A license to due business
does not provide the means by which the state can dictate how or what a business
does. It does not cover harmful or dangerous materials. Handling dangerous
materials is handled by separate permits. Attempts to dis-associate the
individuals from the business they own is to take away their freedom as
individuals in the name of the state.
@airnaut, "I wish I had 25 likes and a flashing Gold Star for this one."
all you need is ninteen more screen names.
Mr West, Imposing your religious beliefs on others is really what this is about.
There is nothing forcing Hobby Lobby employees into using contraceptives if they
so choose. What better way to prevent abortions than to prevent pregnancy? All
this whining for ways not to comply to the ACA could be avoided with a single
payer healthcare system.
@Thinkin\' Man – “The sooner we officially define
"atheism" and "secularism" as religions, the better. If a
religion is a system of beliefs, they certainly fit.”Do you
believe in Zeus? No… then please explain how your non-belief
in Zeus is actually a “system of beliefs.”
Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahNo one is forced to use
contraceptives, yet Hobby Lobby is forced to fund the use of contraceptives. ---------------No, they are not being forced to fund
contraceptives. They have other options, including paying $2000 per
employee and not having healthcare. Give the other money that is saved to the
employees to pay for their OWN healthcare. They would not lose any money and
would be able to keep their religious beliefs.It is not all or
nothing. They just want their own way...not keeping their beliefs and working
within the law. I wonder why?
Kristallnacht, also referred to as the Night of Broken Glass, or
Reichskristallnacht was a program against Jews. German authorities looked
on without intervening.The name Kristallnacht comes from the shards
of broken glass that littered the streets after Jewish-owned stores, buildings,
and synagogues had their windows smashed.======= THAT is
State sponsored bigotry, intolerance, and loss of religous Freedom. Providing equal access to a woman's healthcare by a BUSINESS is not even
in the same league -- not by a trillion miles.This is what I mean
when I say the uber-far-right-wing is no longer even playing in the same ball
Open Minded Mormon, LDS Liberal, airnaut,You wrote: "Mike --
that is an out right lie!The Government does not believe in
abortion."When was Roe v Wade overturned? Is abortion against
the law? Since when? Government believes in abortion. It promotes abortion
by requiring Hobby Lobby and EVERY OTHER BUSINESS in America to fund
abortifacients. It believes in prohibiting life by requiring every business in
America to fund contraceptives.You also stated that the government
believes in the right to privacy? Which government were you referring to?
Certainly not the Federal government that records all email and all cell phone
conversations, or do you exclude cell phone and email from "privacy"?The government has encroached on our liberties. We have the right to
practice our religion without the government telling us which doctrines we can
practice. You have read that, haven't you? "Congress shall make no
law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the FREE EXERCISE
thereof;"Memorize it. We have the right to PRACTICE our
religion without government interference. Belief in the sanctity of life is
fundamental to many religions.
Thinkin\' Man said: "The sooner we officially define "atheism"
and "secularism" as religions, the better. If a religion is a system of
beliefs, they certainly fit."A thinking man would realize that
"atheism" and "secularism" are a religion, like not collecting
stamps is a hobby.LDS liberal nailed it. It's about Hobby Lobby
trying to control your healthcare, and doctors businesses using religion as a
tool.jsf said: "all you need is ninteen more screen names."
The new justification for why few agree with the neocons on these pages, like
the imaginary voter fraud the republicans keep talking about.
jsf 11:54 a.m.,That was hilarious... I've often thought the same
thing. LOL.===Lane Myer 11:32 a.m.,I would not
have a problem if a Wiccan was invited to give a prayer at a meeting. My best
friend's daughter in law is a Wiccan and she gives prayers at family
dinners and such all the time. Doesn't hurt anybody. Why would I not
smile? I'm glad they have the same freedom I have... why would I be
upset?===For the last time... this isn't about
getting the government to promote MY religion, or ANY religion. It's about
getting them OUT of my practice of my religion!I used public
meetings as an example. But I really don't care if there is a prayer in
any public meeting or not. But the Government should not PROHIBIT it.I think prayer is mostly done in private, but if somebody (ANYBODY) WANTS to
pray in public... LET THEM!
To "The Real Maverick" yes, Hobby Lobby does have the right to bear
arms. If they wanted, they can have armed security officers.To
"airnaut" you are confusing. First you say that you believe in Agency,
then you argue that Hobby Lobby should be forced to do something it doesn't
want to. Well, which is it? Do we give the owners of Hobby Lobby agency, or do
we force them?To "Happy Valley Heretic" what about the
intolerance of the anti-thiests and secularists that are highly offended at the
mere sight of something religious? Aren't they teaching intolerance
too?To "Tyler D" actually secularism is a religion. A
religion is defined as a set of beliefs adhered to by faith. Since Athiests
cannot see the entire universe, they rely on faith that God does not exist, and
hold to their beliefs based on that faith.To "Open Minded
Mormon" you should study history more. Over the past 150 years the
government in the US has not only forced abortions but also forced or
misinformed people and sterilized them.
@2bits#2... even IF you worked for them... You can buy your own
contraceptives, can't you?=======The point
isn't contraceptives. The point is healthcare, and does someone
else's religion have the right to block me from said care; whether
it's contraception, blood transfusion or anti-depressants. If healthcare
is a right (and I maintain it is) then you, my pastor, my spouse or even the
President have no right to say what can and cannot happen between me and my
doctor. Period. Doesn't matter if it's contraception or him giving
me a third kidney.What the owner of Hobby Lobby is allowed to do is
preach, and advocate against the use of contraception. He can believe it to be
a sin, and can even preach so. That right is not being taken away.If religious freedom is absolute, then why can't someone practice Sharia
Law? Why can't Warren Jeffs marry several teenage girls? Why was my
church deprived of its right to practice polygamy?
I recall a commenter on another thread on this issue made the point that Hobby
Lobby buys many of its products from China, where abortion is government
sponsored and readily available upon request. Yet, while HL does this
voluntarily - no one requires them to buy products from China - the owners
don't seem the least bit troubled that their money is almost certainly
being used to support abortion there. So why the self-righteous cries here?I think this is an excellent - and revealing - point. My thanks to the
person who made it. I wish I had been able to track it down in order to give
you the credit you're due.
Redshirt: "To "Tyler D" actually secularism is a religion. A
religion is defined as a set of beliefs adhered to by faith. Since Athiests
cannot see the entire universe, they rely on faith that God does not exist, and
hold to their beliefs based on that faith."-----------Please tell me that you know the difference between atheism and secularism!
The Constitution is a secular document. Does that mean that the fathers of our
country were Atheists? Do you not believe in our constitution because it does
not talk about God?Is Agnosticism a religion? Are you not an
atheist too? Do you believe in Jupiter? Juno? Venus? How about Thor? Maybe
atheists just don't believe in one more God than you do, right?Hobby Lobby is NOT being forced to do anything they don't want to. They
have other alternatives that they do not want to take. They just want their
cake and to tell everyone working for them how to eat it too.
"If religion and those that support religion do not comply with secularism
they are labeled as narrow minded, bigots, and discriminators." And if
I tell people i'm an atheist a certain percentage of them will assume I am
an amoral person, because if I don't have the fear of going to hell than
it's not possible that I could be a good person. People are allowed to
think whatever they want about you, it's not the governments job to make
people stop calling you names. If society in general has a shifting viewpoint
you'll either have to change what you believe or get used to being a
minority in that belief. I mean, we haven't banned the KKK or Westboro
Baptist Church, even though their views are more despicable than the average
religion. It isn't fun when the rest of society disagrees with you, but it
doesn't mean you get to force them to believe what you believe.
You said: "Since Athiests cannot see the entire universe, they rely on faith
that God does not exist, and hold to their beliefs based on that faith."Now that's some funny stuff. First, as an atheist, I can see and
experience the entire universe. I just have to look into a cloudless night sky
to see it, or marvel at its wonders when I watch my tulips come into full bloom.
Second, I don't need to have faith to understand the universe. I don't
need faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I know with certainty that, barring
a catastrophe that will destroy us all anyways, the sun will rise tomorrow and
the next day, and the day after that. I know that so long as I water my gardens;
provide adequate nutrients and care, that there is a very high probability that
my tulips will grow this year and next year, and likely the year after that. No
to MountanmanAgreed except when businesses infringe on the personal
beliefs of others (their employees included).
To "Lane Myer" sorry, I guess I had to spell it out to you. Human
Secularism, which is more than just secularism.Agnosticism is a
religion too.Please tell us that you actually know what a religion
is, and not just what some liberal has told you qualifies as a religion.To "my_two_cents_worth" how do you know that God does not exist?
Do you have irrefutable evidence that he does not exist? If you do not have
evidence that God does not exist, then you rely on faith that God does not
exist.Actually, you do need faith to understand the universe. Any
time a scientist makes a new discovery they have to have faith that their theory
is correct. No scientist has a perfect knowledge of the outcome of their
experiment or study until it is complete.
@Redshirt1701 – “… actually secularism is a religion. A
religion is defined as a set of beliefs adhered to by faith.”Please see my earlier Zeus comment (and provide an answer with respect to your
own non-belief in Zeus) because you’re still not connecting the dots
here.And just to clarify, most atheists I know are fairly agnostic
when it comes to the creative force behind the Universe. They tend to be open to
possibilities and generally believe we should follow the evidence. They just
don’t see good evidence to believe that creative force is the god depicted
in the Bronze Age writings of a middle eastern desert tribe. And for
those watching from the bleachers, this is the new tact of religious believers.
They know deep down that faith is what you’re left with when you lack
sufficient evidence for something, so in order to discredit atheism/agnosticism
they desperately need to establish it as a faith – and apparently
violating the logical law of non-contradiction does not trouble them in the
Hypothetical question for the right-wingers...I believe in God and
the power of prayer.Using this silly "logic", Can I
use MY religous convictions and tell my employees they lack suficient faith, and expect them to pray their way healthy, and tell the Government my
BUSINESS is protected because of MY religous beliefs?Because they
way I see it -- The right-wing will snap a Single-Payer Healthcare System
across the nation so fast Ted Cruz and Mike Lee will never have time to Shutdown
@Redshirt1701You asked: “how do you know that God does not
exist?”I don’t know that God does not exist. However,
since no clear evidence of any god has been found or presented, I find the
existence of your god (or anyone else’s god) to be highly improbable. Now,
should you or anyone else present logical and verifiable evidence of god,
I'll gladly change my position.You proclaimed: “Any time
a scientist makes a new discovery they have to have faith that their theory is
correct.” Spoken like someone who has no concept of the
scientific method or how science answers questions. Scientists, unlike
religionists, readily accept that change will happen as our body of knowledge
Do you know the difference between beliefs and religion? Can a person have
beliefs and not have a religion? If I believe that 1+1=2, does that make me
religious? I think you are going to say yes, because you believe that a person
(Agnostic) who just has questions without any answers belongs to a religion!Religion: 1)The service and worship of God or the supernatural
2)devotion to a religious faith 3) an organized system of faith and worship -a
personal set of religious beliefs and practices - 4)Cause, principle, or belief
held with faith and ardor. Agnosticism does not fit any of
these descriptions. They are not ardorous in their ideas but simply question
the beliefs of those who are ardorous (both atheists and believers). Scientists always want others to prove their theory again and again in case it
is wrong - thus adding to knowledge. So far, the theory of gravity has not been
proven wrong. So far 1+1=2. They do NOT have to have faith that their theory
is correct, but are seeking more knowledge through trying new theories all the
time - sometimes the exact opposite of what they were trying to prove earlier.
Faith does not play a role.
Finding Truth 101-----------------Scientific Method:Formulation of a questionHypothesisPredictionTestingAnalysisReligious MethodFormulation of a question -
[What Church is True, The barges are Dark Inside] Hypothesis -
[If I ask God, He will answer me].Prediction[I know with
sufficent Faith, God will hear and answer my prayer]. Testing[The burning bossom, Gift of the Holy Ghost, pay tithing, etc.]Analysis[Witness & bear Testimony that you KNOW something is
true.]======== "...and prove me now herewith, saith
the Lord of hosts"...Same thing -- That settles it, God is a Scientist.
If a woman wants to have a legal drug, it should be her decision and hers alone.
Hobby Lobby should appreciate that they don't bear any personal
responsibility in allowing their insurer to provide a drug to one of their
employees. The employee bears entire responsibility including the wrath of God
if there be such.Actually the Hobby Lobby position demonstrates the
magical thinking which prevails in fundamentalist religion - that if one even
comes in contact with a particular forbidden drug or object that person gets
tainted. Hobby Lobby's position is absurd as is that of writer and the
It should be appreciated that contraceptives including those choking Hobby Lobby
are prescribed for a variety of women's conditions, not just contraception.
Some of these conditions are life-threatening. But if the drugs are prescribed
for contraception, so what? They are legal for such purposes and Hobby
Lobby's objections are the worse sort of "religious intolerance,"
and are part of the GOP war on women.
So glad that an employer thinks they get to decide what is said and prescribed
between a medical professional and an employee is any of their business. When you are in your next job interview, make sure to ask your employer
what religion they are so you can determine whether or not you can comply their
religion's medical views. That's what employment will
come down to. Religious compatibility. Sounds American to me.
No one has a right to stand between a woman and her physician, no one!
The Supreme Court has heard the arguments. According to USA Today, "While
the justices were predictably divided along ideological lines, it appeared that
a majority of them did not want to force for-profit corporations to offer health
plans that include birth control methods they claim cause abortions."Other reports claim that it appears that the court will rule 7 to 2
against the government, meaning that religious freedom is alive and well in
America. Of course, the Court will not tell us their decision until June, but
unless political pressure is used, Hobby Lobby will prevail.
You are confusing religious tolerance with the perceived right to discriminate
against others for their religious beliefs (or lack thereof). That is not the
If Hobby Lobby also refused to cover Viagra, maybe I'd take them seriously.
to my_two_cents_worthUsing Reason, common sense, & understanding
Did anyone else notice how the difference between how the letter started and
ended? What happened in the interim; did the author go listen to A.M. talk radio
for some pithy talking points?
@Airnnaut where is the word free agency found in the scriptures? How did
Lucifer say he was going to save us all? Was it force or the Protestant
doctrine of believe no matter what you do? Dallin H Oaks in talking about
abortion rights said we must be for the right choice. Laws are here for a
reason including moral laws. It was God who gave us laws. Wants us mortals to
make laws of morality for the benefit of his children. Since he only gives
commandments for our benefit. That is why we need to speak up for the right
moral choices in the legislative body.
LDS Liberal I am left speechless by your comment. In actual science
you need actual evidence not "feelings" like a "burning in the
bosom". The evidence must be empirical and I can't examine your
"feelings". You may counter that I could experience my own burning but
this fails as well when see that billions of people have "feelings" just
as strongly about a different religion. Or those like me who sincerely asked and
felt no feelings. In actual science a hypotheses gets with this vast amount of
conflicting results it is rejected. Also in science a valid theory
has to make predictions that actually come true. In religion people I know have
prayed and prayed for something and it didn't happen. Instead of being told
that the hypotheses has now been proven wrong they were told "well it's
not was god wanted". In science you don't get that luxury, if the
predictions are wrong the hypotheses is rejected. Using your logic
it has now been scientifically proven that god doesn't exist. I'm not
sure that's what you were looking for
Not to mention a scientific theory must be falsifiable. This means that now
matter how well established a theory might be if new evidence comes to light
that proves the theory wrong then that theory is rejected or modified according
to the new evidence. In my experience no religion has as one it's founding
principles the idea that it is falsifiable. In fact they are exactly the
opposite, they all claim to be the one and only true church.
Hey Mike, remember how distressed you were when the Supremes ruled against your
beliefs on gay marriage? You thought that those cases were slam dunks too. Why
not just wait until June and you can see what they think on this issue and then
you can do a victory dance or denounce activist judges and government that
doesn't agree with your reading of the Constitution.
Health insurance is part of the compensation package for employment, just like a
paycheck. An employer has no more right to prevent an employee from using their
insurance to cover contraception than it does to prevent the employee from
spending their paycheck on alcohol and R rated films.
HL is not forcing any religion on any employees. All the indignant posters are
not being forced by HL. Those of us who are religious respect that you believe
differently, and don't require you to believe as we do. We just ask that
you, in return respect that we believe differently than you, and not expect us
to change to your beliefs. Is that really so hard, to just respect
us and let us practice our religion? You can eat, drink, and be merry, all you
want, but on your own dime and your own time. You can play in the mire, but I
shouldn't be required to jump in with you. You have your choice, and I have
While the world is brief, random, indifferent, and cruel, Karl Marx did a nice
job of expressing the world and human reaction to it's reality." Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless
world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of
the people."The problem is when "the people" treat it as
a reality not a consolation. Conservatisim and it's religious
partners are dragging America into an abyss of ignorance, intolerance, and
mediocrity. The American dream is being suffocated in a blanket of spiritless
@2 bits: The only people prayer at public meetings offends... is liberal
leftists (not religious people, even if they aren't of the same faith).>>>>When you say "aren't of the same
faith" do you mean go to different Christian denominations that teach
essentially the same thing until you get into the nitty-gritty of deep doctrine?
Or do you mean you would be comfortable in a meeting being opened by
a Wiccan and closed by an Islamic prayer? Because if you are saying
the latter, my experience is that most Christians are not that opened minded and
they will claim all manner if a prayer is offered that does not close "in
the name of Jesus," let alone a prayer offered by a believer of a different
Chris 24/7: What if the employers are Muslims? We have those folks too, right?
They want prayers several times a day? OK or not?? What if Fred Phelps
(Westboro Baptist Church) owned Hobby Lobby and said that no one could be
homosexual and work for his money making enterprise? Ok or not? Finally, since when does the Constitution allow religions to decide science?
They say some contraceptives are ok and some are not because they are
abortifacient even when the jury is not in on the issue?? The last time religion
got into science, Galileo went to prison and it didn't turn out too well.
Respect goes two ways my friend. If you expect respect, you need to
be willing to give it as well.
Christian 24-7:The fact that you consider adults being able to
choose when they have children as "playing in the mire" is a huge part
of why this is such a problem.
Wow, it's sadly amazing just how many people don't feel that religious
freedom is important. It shouldn't matter if you are religious or not. Once
we apathetically let someone else's right slip away, sooner or later it
will hit home to us.
Twisting/spinning words and mocking are quite the opposite of respect. Is that really so hard, to just respect us and let us practice our
religion?Apparently, for many of the anti-religious, it is.
"Wow, it's sadly amazing just how many people don't feel that
religious freedom is important. It shouldn't matter if you are religious or
not"The question here is not whether religious freedom is
important or not, it's "what is religious freedom"? Does it mean you can force me to live by your beliefs because I'm
employed by you? Does it mean any activity even if prohibited by another law is
ok if linked to a religious belief. So drop the martyr complex. You are free to
carry around any notion you want in your head. You are also
"free" to associate with others who think as you do. The question today
is how free are you to make me live by your beliefs when my association with you
is not one of like mind but employment.
to Christian 24-7Your combo of the persecution complex and my way or
the highway mindset is not only tiresome but stunningly typical of a "true
believer" regardless of sect.
This controversy is not really about religious freedom. It is about finding
another way to attack the Affordable Care Act. If this were a religious freedom
issue there is a simple solution. Let those employees of Hobby Lobby that need
contraceptive coverage pay a predetermined contraceptive premium cost for that
medical service as a employee payroll deduction for health care. And, let them
pay it with funds not subject to income taxes. Under this approach, the cost of
contraception is born by the employee not the employer.
I agree with what Stormwalker said yesterday a.m. Further,
christians aren't as tolerant as Christian 24/7 would like us to believe...
Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, & the Albigensian Crusades
It is sad that so many people are willing to abandon one right after another to
the whims of the government. That being said however, Hobby Lobby is
really in a no-win situation. The fact is, if their employees buy
contraceptives, they either got it with a paycheck provided by Hobby Lobby or
they got it with health care provided by Hobby Lobby. Either way, Hobby Lobby
made their contraceptive purchase possible. The real issue is why
anyone should not have to buy their own contraceptives. People are going hungry
in this world and we are worried about buying everybody's contraceptives.
It is insane.
@ Mike in Cedar City"This controversy is not really about
religious freedom. It is about finding another way to attack the Affordable Care
Act."Yes, I think you're right. This is really a backdoor
maneuver disguised as "religious freedom."@ RABRe: the question of paying for one's own contraceptives, I believe the
rationale is that this is a public health issue. It is in everyone's best
interest to promote contraceptive use because of its many health benefits.
"We believe in the inherent dignity of every human being — dignity
that no earthly power can take away. And central to that dignity is freedom of
religion — the right of every person to practice their faith how they
choose … and to do this free from persecution and fear."David, Freedom of religion includes all of us, including gay people! When we
fight for the right to marry, it is a long battle that all gay people have had
to gain some dignity! It is a way of making our lives better and we should have
the right to live our beliefs that we can be married and have families! Nobody
is taking away your right to believe it is wrong! Go ahead and believe whatever
you want, but freedom of religion does not give you the right to deny us the
right to live our lives in dignity! Is that really hard to understand? I do not have to accept the degradation that your beliefs impose on me! Some
of you have been heaping a lot of judgment on others. You are talking about
dignity while you judge and put down a lot of good people around you!
@ RAB" The real issue is why anyone should not have to buy their own
contraceptives. People are going hungry in this world and we are worried about
buying everybody's contraceptives. It is insane."RAB how
many less hungry people would be in the world if their parents would have had
access to contraceptives?Good parents, reponsible parents are going
to bring to the world only the number of children they think they can
support.You see, different to most species. We humans don't
have a season to reproduce. For us sexuality is not only for reproduction but
also for pleasure and as the consummation of love. Therefore, we need
contraceptives. Is in the best of interest of society to have healthy parents
able to sustain their own families.Hobby Lobby and all organizations
including churches (IMHO)should pay for full health coverage. The employees
should have the freedom of agency to use contraceptives or not. It should be
their decision not their employers.
Mike Richards: When the government violates the Constitution by requiring us to
buy insurance, why wouldn't it violate the Constitution by establishing a
State religion?The government is not supporting a state religion,
what it is doing is keeping your religion out of the state.The
government and the supposed "liberal judges" are enforcing the
Constitution. The only violation is the status quo has gotten away with not
following the Constitution. That includes the insertion of religious beliefs
into it denying all citizens of their constitutional liberties.
This quantity of discussion genuinely confuses me. Every sentence in the
article is accurate, and if there were any doubt, plenty of people here have
personally andi ronically demonstrated it.
@Ranch"but the FREEDOM to marry LGBT couples is ALSO a "religious
freedom" and there are MANY religions that believe it is perfectly okay.
Imposing your religious beliefs on others who believe differently, certainly
qualifies as a violation of the religious beliefs of others."-------Nobody is trying to stop any religion from performing a gay or
other marriage. That is NOT the issue. The issue is what the government
recognizes, and do the people of the nation and the individual states have the
right to determine which marriages the government recognizes. Any church or
private entity may perform a gay marriage, even if it is not recognized by that
government. Also, for example, nobody is stopping the LDS Church from performing
marriage sealings to deceased people even though the government doesn't
recognize them as legal marriages. Even the early Mormons who were polygamists
didn't ask the government to recognize polygamous marriages - they only
wanted the government to leave them alone.The issue isn't the
right for gays to get married. The issue is government recognition of certain
marriages, and the right of the people to determine what the government
recognizes and how and what benefits are offered.
@Utes Fan;Does the government recognize your marriage? Yes? Then
it should recognize ours - equal protection of the laws.You,
however, have passed laws requiring the government to refuse to recognize our
marriages. That *is* forcing your religion on us.
Would Hobby Lobby provide financial assistance to the women denied birth control
after these unplanned precious babies are born? I doubt it.
@Ranch"You, however, have passed laws requiring the government
to refuse to recognize our marriages. That *is* forcing your religion on
us."--------Your argument here fails given that there are
people who oppose recognition of gay marriage for non-religious reasons. Besides, supporting something because of my religious conscience is a
perfectly legal right. Unless you believe that my right to freedom of conscience
should be taken away? Then you will have to argue why a totalitarian,
mind-controlling government is good for us. Good luck with that.
This letter had little to do with the real issues. Is Hobby Lobby being forced
to provide contraceptives on company property? No, and that decision should be
up to a woman (or couple's) discretion. Not all of their employees share
their religious beliefs, so why should it be ok that a company gets to make
decisions for all their employees? As far as same-sex marriage goes, the
judicial decisions are not forcing churches to go against their beliefs and
marry couples they choose not to. How is legal recognition of a civil contract
an infringement on religious freedom? Gay and lesbian couples aren't
breaking down the doors of churches demanding to be married; my husband and I
had a small ceremony overseen by a minister of a belief that accepts our union.
We didn't demand that either a catholic or Protestant church solemnize our
union, and no couples here have.
to Utes Fan last night...Ranch has it right. Equal protection under
the lawDo U realize how ironic and your 2nd paragraph is?
Karen R. & Mike in Cedar CityThe Pope, Pope Francis, has spoken
to President Obama about his concerns regarding freedom of religion and its
violation in the ACA. Is Pope Francis just trying to repeal the ACA? Is he just
trying to throw egg on Obama's face? Pope Francis cares nothing
about parties and politics. He cares about people, and he says the ACA violates
a basic right, the right to freely practice religion. Is Pope
Francis just a petty partisan? Good luck selling that one!
@Pendergast"Ranch has it right. Equal protection under the
law"---------And yet, so many who favor gay marriage are opposed
to alternative marriages such as polygamy, polyandry, etc. Yes... so-called
"equal protection" that denies people the freedom of conscience to
disagree (you know... just sue that photographer, baker etc!) Do you see how
ironic YOUR statement is?No irony at all in my stand, but fact.
Government recognition of marriage does not deny marriage to couples - it just
says the govt. doesn't recognize. Nobody is proposing that police and swat
teams show up to gay marriages - they can still take place. But the militant gay
marriage lobby DOES propose that those who refuse to cater to their gay marriage
be sued and FORCED by law to conform.Again... re-evaluate the irony
of YOUR position.
To "Ranch" ok, lets explore this further. If marriage is now the union
of 2 people that love eachother, are you prepared to recognize all marriages?That means that if 1 man and 3 women wanted to be married, you will
recognize it. It also means that if 2 men and 5 women wanted to be married they
could be. If just 4 women thought that they wanted to be married, you would
recognize that. Unless you specifically define marriage as being between 1 man
and 1 woman, you open the legal door for virtually any type of union people
Personally, I hope that Jesus Christ comes soon and takes care of the foolish
among us.We must soldier on until that occurs but I'm hoping
that happens "sooner" rather than "later". Too many takers, not
enough makers, too much selfishness and absolutely foolish choices by the
majority of those in power in just about every area of American society
today.How long, Lord, how long?....
as an active LDS I have to say the employees have the right to choose whether or
not they want to use birth control. Hobby Lobby isn't the place dispensing
the pill but rather the pharmacist is. Let your employees follow their own
concious and stop playing the bully on the playground. Some women need the pill
for medical reasons besides avoiding pregnancy such as painful periods,
fibroids, endometriosis to name a few. For some it could be that a form of birth
control is needed as getting pregnant during an illness can be dangerous.
Isn't the best way to prevent an abortion preventing the pregnancy? I am
against abortion so as a (reasonable person I hope)I am 100% for BIRTH CONTROL!
Assuming these posters are adults- I would like to hear from the non-celibates
who have less than 12 kids how they are managing that???? PS-
someone else posted the fact that birth control can be purchased over the
counter- true but not effective control. The most effective over the counter
requires the participation of the man involved.... If men became pregnant this
whole conversation would change dramatically.
@Utes Fan: Government recognition of marriage does not deny marriage to couples
- it just says the govt. doesn't recognize.That is the point. I
don't care if your church recognizes my marriage to my husband. I do care
about the IRS recognizing it, and the Ohio Department of Revenue, as well as
local hospitals and other health providers. I care about inheritance and joint
property we are building together. I care about some 1,400 hundred laws and
rules that govern and protect relationships that have nothing to do with your
church or religious beliefs. In fact, religious recognition is so
low on the list it does not appear on the list. Personally, I think this
discussion would be so much easier if we did as other countries and separated
"marriage," performed by a clerk or magistrate at a court house, from
any religious ceremony done in a house of worship. The former is
important for my relationship, the latter is not needed or wanted.