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Deseret News recruiting grades in for BYU, Utah and Utah State

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  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 5, 2014 10:36 p.m.

    Comparing all teams in the West, here is how the conferences stack up with local teams displayed:

    1. Pac 12
    2. pac 12
    3. Pac 12
    4. pac 12
    5. Pac 12
    6. Pac 12
    7. Pac 12
    8. Pac 12
    9. Pac 12
    10. Pac 12
    11. Pac 12
    12. Indy byu
    13. Pac 12 Utah
    14. Mwc
    15. Mwc
    16. Mwc
    17. Mwc
    18. Mwc
    19. Mwc
    20. Mwc
    21. mwc
    22. mwc
    23. Mwc
    24. Mwc
    25. Mwc
    26. Mwc Utah state
    Yes this is only one recruiting service(rivals). If someone wants to re-do this list from other recruiting service that's certainly fine, I have no objection to comparing a few sites.

    When you see this list its no surprise to know the Pac 12 went 14-1 against the mwc and quasi mwc byu last year.

    Very very strong correlation between higher stars and wins over teams with lower stars

    This also shows what recruits think of the bottom of the Pac 12 vs the top of the WAC - better recruits still prefer being at the bottom of the Pac 12 tot he top of the wac, as the bottom of the Pac 12 is still better than the top of the WAC

  • Kralon HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA
    Feb. 5, 2014 10:53 p.m.

    Rivals isn't up-to-date so their numbers are incorrect. ESPN looked correct showing BYU at 62nd and Utah at 64th, but you have to pay to see the details and I don't care enough to pay. 247sports also looked correct and they have Utah at 63rd and BYU at 66th.

    Point is BYU and Utah's 2014 classes are roughly the same which means neither team got more than a couple great athletes and probably a couple more that will develop into top players.

    To compete with less than the best players teams need to have top coaching. If they don't have the best coaches and don't have the best players then they need to have a strategy of trick plays and different looks to try and confuse their opponents (Boise State should come to mind).

    Good recruiting classes for all three big programs in the state, but not good enough to keep Utah and BYU competitive with most of their opponents. It is football, so you never know, any team can have a great year where the ball mostly falls their way or the team plays above their talent level.

  • Down under Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 5, 2014 11:16 p.m.

    So I guess CB is saying that EVERY team i the pac out recruited the u. That's a way to compete. The gap at the bottom of the pac will continue to grow. When WSU can out recruit the utes it speaks volumes about the direction of the two programs.
    BYU is heading in the right direction and the utes are heading the other way.

  • The Anti Chris Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 5, 2014 11:22 p.m.

    Utah fan operated "Rivals" has inflated the u recruiting class numbers ratings and probably deflated BYU's class numbers. I would not use Rivals in the state of utah as it is a biased system. The actual difference is probably much wider that Rivals would lead us to believe.

  • Rose Bowl call yet? Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 5, 2014 11:41 p.m.

    Chris B

    So what you're really saying with your "conferences recruiting comparison" is...

    Utah finished DEAD LAST in the PAC 12 in recruiting!

    LOL!

  • Jeff ls Farr West, 84404
    Feb. 5, 2014 11:54 p.m.

    Chris B.
    What can you tell me about that running back committment for Utah. You know, the guy that signed and sent three LOI's. One to Utah, So. Miss, and some community college. No doubt a future Academic All American for Utah, wait he may not actually show up. The So Miss Coach is very pleased at signing him.
    Jeff

  • Hoosier87 American Fork, UT
    Feb. 5, 2014 11:57 p.m.

    I gotta say it's quite comical reading Chris B's meltdown.

    I honestly haven't enjoyed your posts this much in A LONG, LONG TIME...

    As for Utah's recruiting class - it is pretty weak and will not help Whittingham keep his job past this year. It's certainly not strong enough to compete in the PAC12. I like Coach Whit, but his days are numbered.

    BYU's class on the other hand seems like exactly what the Cougars needed. Get the O-Line figured out and this could be a very good team. If someone could help Anae figure out how to run an offense, this could be an excellent team.

  • BlueNtheFace Rancho Cucamonga, CA
    Feb. 6, 2014 12:01 a.m.

    Nice spin as usual, Chris B.

    Bottom line, BYU got all they wanted minus a couple. Utah missed on many, including about 6 or 7 that chose to play at "Indy BYU."

    I know they've already been counted a couple of years ago, but the Troy Hinds and Rawlinsons that are included in the 18 or so returning missionaries rejoining the program give us more than enough to edge out the instate programs and a lot of the mid-to-lower level BCS teams.

    It's a great time to be a Cougar fan. Rise up!!

    Go BYU!

  • Dnquixote Las Vegas, NV
    Feb. 6, 2014 12:29 a.m.

    Mr. Gurney gets that Utah and BYU were neck and neck (but way down) on the major sports sites right? But somehow this was an amazing class for BYU and a garbage class for Utah? I would say sub par for both. But the expectation for Utah is clearly higher.

  • Alex T Murray, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 1:02 a.m.

    Chris B

    What BYU fan thinks that we have a top 10 recruiting class? I have no idea who you talk to...unless that BYU fan is your 8 year old little brother? Maybe you just feel the need to start some fire.

    BYU = mediocre signing class (we will ALWAYS have a mediocre class w/ the honor code)

    UTAH = mediocre signing class (will ALWAYS have a mediocre signing class unless they can get out of cellar...not likely)

    Utah State = little brother...no one really cares. get real.

    No in-state program will ever be top-tier. Unfortunately Utah will ALWAYS be at the bottom of the pac-12 when it comes to recruiting.

    No need to even argue or discuss who has a better class. Even if it is .05 or a .65 difference. Is that really a big win for the Utes?

    Lets just all be happy that each school picked up some good kids!

  • cougar76 Raleigh, NC
    Feb. 6, 2014 1:21 a.m.

    Some people seem to have hours to spend researching and coming up with meaningless statistics. How about researching some questions that are relevant to the future of football at the u - How does utah's class compare to the rest of the PAC-12? How will Utah get out of the cellar if their recruiting class is in the cellar? Since u don't play BYU for two years will beating the buffs be your bowl game? If BYU is not relevant, why are you so obsessed with us? BYU signed 2, 3 and 4 star recruits. SC and the other elite programs signed 3, 4, and 5 star recruits. I don't see a NC in BYU's future and u should get used to the cellar

  • Mike Johnson Stafford, VA
    Feb. 6, 2014 3:53 a.m.

    So, Utah with a rivals.com rank of 68th gets a C and BYU with a rivals.com rank of 70th gets an A-?

    That says a lot about expectations on the two teams.

  • Don't Feed the Trolls Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 5:38 a.m.

    Chris,

    So what you're saying is Utah is destined to continue being the bottom dweller in the PAC?

    That is not news.

  • Dennis Harwich, MA
    Feb. 6, 2014 5:45 a.m.

    Regardless of the opinions stated and for as much as I dislike the BYU program and grew up a Ute lunatic the most entertaining football in the state is played by Utah State. Period.

  • Ricardo Carvalho Provo, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 5:56 a.m.

    Chris B - Help me understand how BYU fans are "acting like they have a top 10 recruiting class" when no obvious BYU fans have posted on this page. I have never seen anyone as fixated on BYU as you.

    Congratulations to all three in-state teams for decent recruiting classes. Despite the lack of large numbers of highly ranked recruits, each of our three teams play some pretty good football and consistently enjoy post-season play with a few exceptions now and again.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    Feb. 6, 2014 6:42 a.m.

    RE: Chris B.

    "byu fans are acting like they have a top 10 recruiting class. "

    Which fans are those? Seriously, can you show even one comment that provides evidence for this claim? All I see is our top fan (Chris B.) rushing to post before anyone can even express an opinion.

  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    Feb. 6, 2014 6:43 a.m.

    Ah, Chris. So many things to say.

    First off, most BYU fans are NOT acting like we have a top 10 recruiting class. Exaggeration and hyperbole are not a sound basis for making your criticisms. And that’s a shame, because you frequently have good facts to discuss in defense/promotion of the team you proudly support.

    Second, I appreciate your use of star average for comparison instead of total stars.

    Third, most BYU fans are not interested in the comparison between BYU and Utah, but since you mention it, 2.68, IS better than 2.63.

    The important comparison, for most BYU fans, is 2.31 to 2.68. BYU had a much better recruiting class this year than last year. And since you mentioned it, 2.96 to 2.63 is a much worse recruiting class.

    I am willing to admit, I am one who STILL doesn’t place a lot of stock in stars. Most BYU fans have lived through Jake Heaps and Cody Hoffman. But as you aptly reminded us, over and over (and over) again, stars DO matter.

  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    Feb. 6, 2014 6:44 a.m.

    Making the star discussion more meaningful, I think you might be willing to agree that a 4 star JuCo experienced player is more likely to pan out than a 4 star high school player. To that end, BYU fans are indeed positively giddy. Losing the production of Cody Hoffman is discouraging. Picking up three experienced players to replace him is hopeful.

    As you so often and ably remind us, Utah plays in a big boy conference now. To that end, if comparisons must be made, Utah didn’t do very well this year. However, I am confident in Coach Whit’s ability to get more out of less, and I honestly hope he gets the chance to continue to do so.

    BYU will continue to wander in the wilderness, playing some big boys, but not competing in a big boy conference. But if our recruiting improved by over 10%, that has to be good, right? If that improved out winning by 10%, that would be good. At least for most BYU fans.

  • Area 52 Tooele, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 6:50 a.m.

    @Chris B

    Wake up and smell the Roses for once. If Utah ranked higher than BYU by the very slimmest of margins you would be rubbing it in and doing the exact same thing as BYU fans. Because a win is a win right? Doesn’t matter how much you win by. LOL Just face the fact, the only reason Utah is even in the Top 70 is because of their affiliation with the PAC 12. Man, if BYU was in the PAC12 or another Super Conference, it wouldn’t even be close, BYU would destroy Utah in the recruiting battle and that is a fact.

  • shorts Payson, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 6:51 a.m.

    Chris B.

    "byu fans are acting like they have a top 10 recruiting class." You are the only one on this board commenting there are NO BYU comments.

  • Adirondack Cougar Loon Lake, NY
    Feb. 6, 2014 6:58 a.m.

    My take-away is that the tide is turning. The ESPN exposure is helping, Indy football can work. It works because BYU can make its schedule as hard or soft as it wants. So if they can ramp it up over the next 5 - 10 years as they continue to get better (high stars) players they can continue to have winning seasons and go to bowl games. Winning records helps recruiting, so it is an upward spiral. Utah doesn't have that luxury. Every year they will face a tough schedule and struggle to get to .500 and a bowl game, and that does not help recruiting, so a downward spiral.

  • Bluto Sandy, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 7:01 a.m.

    Rankings according to Scout..

    If you strictly look at the "Star" averages, and drop the "Number of Recruits" factor, which is irrelevant anyway, then BYU's recruiting class would rank #49, not #62.
    While Utah would rank at #56 not #68.

    Either way, BYU had a better recruiting class than did Utah.

    What is more pressing for BYU are the recruits from 2011 and 2012, i.e. returned missionaries.

  • CBAX Provo, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 7:06 a.m.

    I love football here in provo but I hate the hype. Lets not get too excited anticipating the next 50-10

  • Real Bass Idaho Falls, ID
    Feb. 6, 2014 7:08 a.m.

    Chris. Why the focus on BYU? Aren't you in the big time now? Oops. Worst recruiting class in the PAC! No more bowling for u!

  • evansrichdm west jordan , UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 7:23 a.m.

    Since BYU is and indy and people keep saying being indy makes it harder to recuit I think BYU did well. Sure Utah has the PAC 12 to recuit and it does pay off to some point, but BYU has ESPN and that seems to be paying off just as well has PAC 12 does, but here is the thing, BYU is winning and players want to go to a team that wins. Right now Utah is not winning and it is effecting its recuiting. BYU is winning, could use some more wins against great teams, but bottom line it is winning and winning on a national TV station.

    Final though Utah, a PAC 12 school, should worry because this is the first years since joining the PAC 12 that BYU and indy school either beat or match Utah in recuiting.

  • still_thinking Draper, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 7:26 a.m.

    What a lot of people miss is that BYU doesn't recruit by 'stars'. BYU players have to not only be willing, but have a DESIRE, to live to BYU standards. BYU's list is based first on who wants to live the standards, and then the athletic talent. It is a different metric. I think it's really a compliment to say BYU's class is rated similar to Utah (a member of the vaunted PAC 12) given BYU's true recruiting pool is a fraction of Utah's (i.e. Utah can go after any recruit, while BYU only recruits the tiny fraction of D1 quality players willing to live LDS church standards).

  • oddman ,
    Feb. 6, 2014 7:27 a.m.

    Neither stars nor Rivals measures the heart nor desire. Let's give em all a chance to show us the number of stars in their attitudes.

  • xert Santa Monica, CA
    Feb. 6, 2014 7:36 a.m.

    Both of these grades are way off. C minuses would be generous, elites get real. BYU got the warner kid and that is nice. Utah picked up a big and highly rated lineman and that is also nice. Beyond that? Let's wait and see. But truth is truth and my Utes had arguably the second worst recruiting class in the Pac 12. That is not good, especially from a coach who calls recruiting the lifeblood of a program. Both BYU and utah we're beat out by the likes of Marshall and western michigan for talent. Good luck to the new guys and I hope they make believers out of everyone, but to call these classes a- and c+ or whatever, is like tying a nice ribbon on a box of Whitman chocolates and calling them Sees.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 7:54 a.m.

    Alex,

    Blaming the honor code for recruiting?

    I thought byu was a national powerhouse and that tons of kids want to go to byu?

    Sure, some wont want to go there, but BECAUSE of the honor code many WANT to go there, so why doesn't byu do better in recruiting because of the honor code?

    Saying limited recruiting pool doesn't answer the question because due to the Mormon affiliation byu's recruiting pool is expanded to the Mormons across the nation.

    What specifically about the honor code hurts recruiting? Doesn't that help recruiting? Don't many kids WANT the byu experience and honor code in their lives? Doesn't that benefit recruiting and not hurt it?

    I would live to know why you use the honor code as an excuse for worse recruiting than you would have otherwise. But please be specific

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:02 a.m.

    This can't be!

    How can a MWC, and Independent team, have a higher graded recruiting class than a PAC 12?

    Unless it's the utes?

    Didn't Weber also have a "C"?

  • Steven S Jarvis Orem, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:11 a.m.

    Smelling the roses...Eventually Utah will do that but not by weakening each year in a league that they should be getting better in. I am not expecting the Utes to win their division. It'll happen once in awhile when both USC and Arizona State have bad years and Utah has an easier road of it avoiding Stanford and Oregon. But the weakening of recruiting and the lack of bowls are seriously weighing down the program.

    BYU on the other hand does not need to recruit specifically against other programs. They just need to recruit for their needs like they did this year. The A- was deserved because the most pressing needs were adequately addressed. Those three receivers they picked up are huge after Cody graduating.

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:15 a.m.

    I think BYU and Utah both addressed big needs.
    I think what BYU fans are excited about is the beat USC 3-1 (losing Mama), Utah 7-1, and other power conference teams for a lot of their recruits. A definite change in BYU's recruiting philosophy and refreshing. Even BYU's late pickup (Gulley) was getting calls from Georgia.
    I applaud both schools the U for breaking into the south and recruiting elite speed (DJ Law is 4.3 type of guy hopefully he qualifies), and BYU for changing philosophies and recruiting in a wider area and against the power conferences.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:20 a.m.

    Kralon
    HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA

    "Good recruiting classes for all three big programs in the state, but not good enough to keep Utah and BYU competitive with most of their opponents."

    What? Obviously, you haven't seen byu's 2014 schedule. byu's "competition" is going to make this class and the current players look like absolute superstars and the coaches look like football gurus. The receiver who signed on with byu for one year employed a brilliant strategy to dumb down his competition for his last year of football will have numbers off the charts (if byu's qb decides that he isn't the only one on the team and actually throws the ball) and be a top prospect for the NFL. Brilliant!

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:32 a.m.

    @ MyPerspective
    You do realize that he was at UTEP right. BYU is a major step up.
    Do you also know coming out of High School he turned down the Pac-12?

  • Tom in MS Madison, MS
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:39 a.m.

    Well, Brandon, I guess you are showing you really do bleed blue (I've guessed it all along). You are really giving the Utes a "C" when their speed just went to warp level 10 speed? Did anyone, particularly Brandon, even look at the video clips to see how fast these guys really are? Personally I'm excited to see an Eric Weddle type hitter that's a little bigger and has blazing speed. And let's not forget the drama with DJ Law. I work with a couple of Ole Miss fans, and they were laughing at me when I said that DJ Law was going to be a Ute. Ole Miss's fan site said that he had sent his LOI in to Ole Miss, and that the Utes were down the list of other programs (including four or five other SEC programs)that were beat out. Whitt was right when he said we don't know half of the drama involved with recruiting. I believe you rate BYU too high, and the Utes too low.

  • Bluto Sandy, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:39 a.m.

    Rankings according to Scout..

    If you strictly look at the "Star" averages, and drop the "Number of Recruits" factor, which is irrelevant anyway, then BYU's recruiting class would rank #49, not #62.
    While Utah would rank at #56 not #68.

    Either way, BYU had a better recruiting class than did Utah.

    What is more pressing for BYU are the recruits from 2011 and 2012, i.e. returned missionaries.

  • DrUte Woods Cross, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:40 a.m.

    Have to agree with most of the comments posted here, but passing thru the obvious recruiting challenges that exist for the various Utah programs, I'm curious now what will the teams and coaching staff do to develop the young men who have joined their ranks.

    Star Lotulelei was a 3-star in Scout, Taysom Hill a 3-star, as was Chuckie Keeton. Each seems to have blossomed in their respective systems.

    The ball is now in the coachs' court(s).

    In Utah's case, it will be particularly interesting to see what the various new coaching assignments can produce with (1) the personnel returning from either last year's team or (2) from their missions, plus (3) the results of yesterday's activities.

    And we know that every team in the PAC improves significantly every year. Quite a challenge.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:42 a.m.

    Area 52
    Tooele, UT

    "Man, if BYU was in the PAC12 or another Super Conference, it wouldn’t even be close, BYU would destroy Utah in the recruiting battle and that is a fact."

    LOL...getting a bit carried away aren't you? It's easy to call something a "fact" that can never be proven but it makes the author look silly. Further, byu isn't in the Pac-12 because they have proven they don't belong there and have done nothing to earn their place among the elite.

    I love the pipeline that Utah is establishing in SEC country. However, what concerns most Utah fans is that similarities in recruiting with other in state programs is not going to cut it in the Pac-12. UCLA, USC, and the other programs in the Pac-12 South (and Pac-12 North) just raised the level of competition a notch. Utah bringing in a recruiting class that is equivalent to byu's class is no complement. That's exactly the point that Gourney is making with the relative grades for the same level of talent.

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:43 a.m.

    @ CB
    Have you ever been around college athletes? Like friends with them, being one, talking to one?
    Well from experience at the College athletic level 10 guys out of the 12 on my team would never consider BYU as an option because of the honor code.
    Most of them drank, partied late, and were explicitly active in their romantic lives.
    A lot college athletes want that, that is part of the experience.
    So coming from someone with experience with college athletics, it is a huge hamper.
    It is amazing to see such in cognizance in you remarks, absolutely baffling the image you portray of yourself.

  • Bluto Sandy, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:55 a.m.

    @Chris B.

    You lost us all at Hello!

    As for your Utes.

    -Last in Pac-12 Athletic budgets.
    -Last in Pac-12 recruiting.
    -Last in Pac-12 teams with National Games on a "Major" Network.
    -10th in Pac-12 Academic Rankings.
    -11th in Pac-12 Attendance.

    Two straight losing seasons...No players in the College Hall of Fame or National Award winners.

    We tried to warn you to remove your Masks of False Bravado!

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 9:02 a.m.

    I agree with Gurney.
    byu deserves an A for recruiting on the same level Utah.
    Utah deserves a less than average grade for recruiting on the same level as byu.

    On a different scale I would give the byu program and fans an F for their ecstatic celebration of mediocrity and the Utah program should get an F for ranking at the bottom of the PAC 12 in recruiting.

  • Ed Grady Idaho Falls, ID
    Feb. 6, 2014 9:06 a.m.

    I wish I could track the various recruiting services like some on this message board, but I have a job.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 9:11 a.m.

    MyPerspective
    " Further, byu isn't in the Pac-12 because they have proven they don't belong there and have done nothing to earn their place among the elite."

    You realize you could say the exact same thing about Utah, right? The difference is Utah is actually in the PAC12 and is actually showing they don't belong and actually have done nothing to earn their place in that conference. With BYU you're just speculating, with Utah it is verifiable and proven fact. Being in the PAC12 doesn't change the fact that Utah is a MWC caliber football program.

  • pleblian salt lake city, utah
    Feb. 6, 2014 9:18 a.m.

    What "star" recruit was Austin Collie? 3 stars

    For Utah, Eric Weddle, perhaps their best defensive player ever, was a two star recruit.

    Jake Heaps was 5 star and could not outperform 2 star Riley Nelson.

    Bobby Wagner, RObert Turbin and Chuckie Keeton were 2-star recruits.

    Chris Cooley and Kevin Curtis were not even two star recruits.

    That is all I have to say about the reliability and foreseeability of the Scout and Rivals' "star" systems.

    It seems the athletic threshold is 2 stars, after that, stars mean nothing.

  • WildCougar Holladay, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 9:22 a.m.

    Chris B. Please Read This!!!
    Chris you make it a point to criticize everything BYU, everybody knows you have no credibility in your perspective. Let me point out some recruiting insight to you that you seem to be missing. Since you are so enamored with stars and the pac12, but lets touch on stars.

    You look at rivals (I say rivals because you get the best rating there, versus scout) Your beloved utes are ranked 11th in your conference in recruiting, and 6th in the south division. How is that helping your cause to even win the pac south? You are quick to point out the mediocrity of BYU but we are out recruiting you according to scout.

    You need to put down the animosity towards BYU and focus on your own team. Please come down to earth and recognize your beloved utah utes are nothing but a feeder fish to your superior cohorts in the pac12. USC, UCLA, Arizona, Arizona State, completely dominated you over recruiting this year. Oh wait so did Colorado. Sorry mr. pac12. Maybe another pac12 sticker in your rear view mirror will make you feel better.

  • Mikeylikesit Davis, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 9:24 a.m.

    Congrats Cougs! So glad we don't have a game with the TUN to ruin our season this year ;)! ChrisB, ErnstTBass, MildredinFilmore have a great season.

  • Area 52 Tooele, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 9:29 a.m.

    @MyPerspective

    Looks like the only pair of glasses you use are the Rose Colored Ones LOL. You should definitely get a different pair. So you tell me, what has Utah done to deserve to be in the PAC12? We all know if BYU wasn’t a religious school and if their basketball team could play on Sunday they would’ve been invited to join the PAC12. Those two reasons are why they did not get invited (The PAC12 will never admit though).

    If you tell me Utah deserves to be in the PAC12 because of their two big wins (Sugar Bowl win and Fiesta Bowl win) over BYU that is totally ridiculous. Because what has Colorado done as of late and if I’m not mistaken Washington St. and Arizona have really done nothing to bolster the PAC12 as well.

    BYU is a national brand, has a bigger fan base, better facilities (I’m sure you will argue this because Utah is upgrading theirs), a bigger stadium. Oh, and one other thing, a National Championship! So, I really don’t know what Utah has over BYU.

    Go Cougs!

  • TRUTH Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 9:43 a.m.

    Hey Chris b...hang your hat on the fact that some of BYU recruits will not cut it academically and will fall to the Utes like Star.....see you in the funny papers

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 9:48 a.m.

    Brsmart

    What you fail to realize though is that many kids, mostly lds, choose byu BECAUSE of the honor code as the uniqueness of byu. Yes, many kids won't want to go to byu because of the uniqueness, but many lds kids go because of it, which means byu gets kids they otherwise would not have. You lose some because of uniqueness but gain others because of it.

    So you still fail to explain how that hurts recruiting on a net basis. Yes, there are more non lds kids in the nation but byu also gets a much higher percentage of the Mormon recruits than most colleges get.

    And if by can be qb university or linebacker university, doesn't that HELP recruititing and not hurt it?

    Want to try again?

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 9:52 a.m.

    Area52

    How did jamaal Williams think byu was division II?

    Did he not know about the national brand?

    I've never heard a recruit think any other national brand school was division II

  • RealBlue Holladay, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 9:56 a.m.

    I still think its funny how the ute fan base thinks just because they got a couple kids from SEC country that all of the sudden they have opened this teleportation device the size of the grand canyon from florida to salt lake city. "Look out everyone, players in the southeast are tripping over themselves to get to salt lake city". Let's get real you found ONE yes ONE player that is a 3 star recruit from florida, oh by the way, he can't decide where he wants to go. Stevens Henager College just reported that they just received a letter of intent from a Mr. Law in florida.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 10:07 a.m.

    pleblian

    "It seems the athletic threshold is 2 stars, after that, stars mean nothing"

    Its funny that you seem to think that, yet Nick Saban, Les Miles, and Urban Meyer(among others) all seem to be going after and getting a lot more of the 4 and 5 stars than most schools and their teams are usually among the best.

    Probably purely coaching though. I'll bet they could put together a team of 1 star nobodies and do just as well.

    LOL!

  • nhatch82 Eagle Mountain, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 10:26 a.m.

    @ Chris B

    Enough with Jamaal thinking BYU wasn't a division 1 school. He chose BYU over Utah! Thats right the uties offered him a scholarship and he chose to go to the "DIV 2" school instead. What does that say about the utes?

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Feb. 6, 2014 10:26 a.m.

    @ CB
    you do realize 2-3% of the US population is LDS right?
    That is not a huge advantage in recruiting.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 10:36 a.m.

    Cougsndawgs

    Cougsndawgs...Utah's complete and utter domination of byu and ownership of Provo is all evidence needed to show where byu would be in the Pac-12 if it were worthy to stand with the elite. Yes, Utah is struggling as is TCU in their elite conference. Both programs are perfect examples that BCS conferences are far more competitive than the mid-majors. You bring nothing to table by stating the obvious.

  • dww722 North Salt Lake, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 10:41 a.m.

    Ty Detmer was recruited as a 3 star QB out of Texas. He wasn't the biggest, strongest or fastest which is what the star rating is based on. What he did have is serious qb smarts and a system that allowed him to showcase the amazing talents he did posess. In the process he and his teammates made the mighty, 4-5 star laden, number 1 rated and defending national champion Miami Hurricanes look rather pedestrian in a victory for the ages and sent Detmer on his way to winning the Heisman Trophy.

    Chris B would probably say that's a one time lucky shot. Maybe, but BYU football history is loaded with similar (if not as spectacular) games that rocked the college football world because they devised a scheme that allowed their 2-3 star athletes to compete on the same level as the big boys. Boise State did the same thing. Yeah stars matter some but not as much as CB would have you believe.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 10:46 a.m.

    Area 52..."We all know if BYU wasn’t a religious school and if their basketball team could play on Sunday they would’ve been invited to join the PAC12."

    We all know that? Really? Apparently that message didn't make it to the Presidents and Chancellors of the Pac-10. Was byu even asked about the the Sunday play that you claim was solely responsible for keeping them out of the Pac-12? No. Therefore, there is no reasonable way to make that assertion. Unfortunately for byu and its fans, byu has spent decades building sports programs. Sports, sports, and more sports. Over that same period of time, The University of Utah focused on a robust academic portfolio and research. There is far more than Sunday play keeping byu off the Pac-12 radar. Entitlement is alive and well in Provo. You don't just simply will yourself into a conference like the Pac-12.

    Congratulations to byu for finally putting together a recruiting class equivalent to Utah. However, given the struggles Utah has had and it's total domination of byu in every respect, in what world do you think that would make byu even remotely competitive in an elite conference?

  • RSLfanalways West Valley, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 10:46 a.m.

    The biggest thing to take away from all this is that USU is taking recruits from bigger teams than them. With Ute's and BYU leaving MWC really has helped USU. That conference is good luck for Utah teams when they are in it. But when you leave it gives you a curse.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 10:46 a.m.

    BeSmart,
    byu has an advantage in recruiting their target base. If it was the national brand that it and it's fans incessantly proclaim, it shouldn't lose any targeted LDS athletes to other schools.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 10:56 a.m.

    Area 52

    "BYU is a national brand, has a bigger fan base, better facilities (I’m sure you will argue this because Utah is upgrading theirs), a bigger stadium. Oh, and one other thing, a National Championship! So, I really don’t know what Utah has over BYU."

    Good grief, you have yourself worked up. Yes, byu has intangibles (I doubt facilities is an advantage any longer - tough to accept, I know) but I'll point out to you again...you can't pick and choose the intangibles for an invitation to an elite conference. The conference determines what they are looking for and the bar was simply too high for byu which was never considered.

    Regarding your assertion of fan bases, I will remind you that the Pac-12 struck a land mark TV deal with Utah in the mix. Therefore, the point you are attempting to make (whatever it is) is moot.

  • Magna Ute Fan Magna, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:07 a.m.

    The rankings in regards to Utah are somewhat skewed for the worse. Perhaps that is true for USU and BYU as well? But some of the recruiting services are still not showing DJ Law as committed to Utah. And, I believe none of them are crediting Utah with Lowell Lotulelei, although he wasn't counted last year, because he didn't sign a LOI then. That's screwy in my opinion.

  • CougOrUte..Naah Nibley, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:10 a.m.

    It is nice that Utah did well as opposed to BYU and USU. But even the most rabid Utah fan has to realize that compared to the rest of the PAC 10+2 teams they are still falling behind. I don't get the big brag by Chris B and others that they are beating the other in state schools on the field and in recruiting. You are getting killed in your conference....that is what should matter to you. I get it that you are embarrassed by your lack of success in the PAC 10+2. It does not reflect well on you to try to sooth your conscious by beating down BYU and USU. With the absolutely monster of a schedule you have next year, and the athletes you are recruiting, it is going to be another tough year. Hey and I admit, with BYU and USU's recruiting, it would be just as tough or more so for them. Utah is 4 or 5 years away from competing in the PAC 10+2 even if they start getting higher ranked recruits. Good luck to you, but quit with the chest thumping until you win.

  • FT salt lake city, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:19 a.m.

    It's ironic that most national services graded Utah and BYU about equal but the DN gave BYU an "A" and Utah a "C". I guess the grades are given on what is expected vs what is attained.
    As a Ute fan for over 40 years, I'll admit the program is headed downward and Coach Whit's tenure is probably on life support. Momentum has a lot to do with sucess and the Utes don't have much right now.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:24 a.m.

    MyPerspective:
    First off let me say I enjoy our back and forth and the insight you bring. You have shown me that respect so I return it.

    To your point, BYUs struggles with Utah, in no way show how they would do in the PAC12, so you are in fact speculating. You can't do anything but speculate considering BYU isn't in the PAC12. BYU may match up better with other PAC12 teams. I will concede that BYU may do no better than Utah, but again that is by definition a speculation.

    I'm glad to see that you agree that it's "obvious" that Utah has not shown they belong or have earned their place in the PAC12. That has been verified...BYUs success in a hypothetical situation is speculation. Surely you can concede that.

  • Area 52 Tooele, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:25 a.m.

    @MyPerspective

    This is starting to get real entertaining reading your replies and comments LOL

    You got to be kidding yourself if you think Utah’s robust academic portfolio and research is the reason why. We all know BYU has a higher academic portfolio than Utah. You really want to go there? Just ask Star who has higer academic standards.

    You still haven’t clearly detailed Utah’s reason to be invited to the PAC12 over BYU. I at least gave you some really good reasons why BYU did not. So, stop with all the side mumbo jumbo and tell me why Utah deserved to be in the PAC12 over BYU?

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:25 a.m.

    @ Myperspective
    The Pac-12 expanded in order to renegotiate a tv contract. And what did tv want a championship game (some people have estimated this at 40-60 million dollars) so the Pac-12 would have added SUU to get to 12 if that was their only choice. But they added a good program in Utah.
    Any person who says BYU has not been included in expansion for athletic reasons needs to read a little more, it is all over out there that BYU has very good athletics. See all athletic department ratings.
    Sunday play is also an issue. 11 games were televised on ESPN networks on sunday. That is a large source of revenue that would stop with BYU.

  • BlueHusky Mission Viejo, CA
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:27 a.m.

    Yawn. Another protracted pot-pourri of commenters repeating each other.

    I don't agree with Chris B's assessment in its entirety, but certainly stars on average do matter. A little. But they are a rating of high school kids. A regression model predicting success based only on star rating would probably would not do much better than a 55% R-square (explaining 55% of the variance).

    A better model would be based on a lot of factors.

    Ultimately, it is success on the field that validates a star rating. But the star rating is probably a poor predictor of success when applied to an individual.

    Elementary statistics, Mr. B.

  • RealBlue Holladay, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:28 a.m.

    @MyPerspective

    You realize that your "Landmark TV deal" is only seen in a regional area, right? Nobody on the midwest, east coast has access to or is interested in your pac12 network. Have you seen the ratings of your ute football games, its non-existent. The pac-12 network is a joke. Everybody but you knows that.

  • Rdub Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:35 a.m.

    Good for BYU, they definitely need all the help they can get. It's made the rivalry much weaker beating them year after year. Sadly it looks like Snow may be their new up and coming in state rival. Even the gap is widening for the basketball team. Surely BYU can stay competitive on that front.... can't they?

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:35 a.m.

    MyPerspective:
    Also to your point to Area 52, it is true that BYU did not meet the bar established by the PAC12 for being a tier 1 research school...BYU is more geared toward training than research. Utah deserved their invitation because they are in fact a tier 1 research school. That being said BYUs large fan base and national following were what attracted the Big 12, but BYUs desire to maintain tv rights and their exclusive relationship with espn (as well as Sunday play) nixed that deal.

    In terms of landmark tv deals, you do realize that the Big 10 will make a bigger deal for TV money bringing in powerhouses like Rutgers and Maryland right? The tv deals have to do with major tv markets not the quality of the programs, as these additions show. Yes, Utah brought more money in terms of a championship game and the SLC tv market...neither of which infers that the additions were great athletic programs. Again, Colorado, Rutgers, and Maryland are all examples of this.

  • Christine B. Hedgefog Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:49 a.m.

    1. Pac 12
    2. pac 12
    3. Pac 12
    4. pac 12
    5. Pac 12
    6. Pac 12
    7. Pac 12
    8. Pac 12
    9. Pac 12
    10. Pac 12
    11. Pac 12
    12. Indy byu
    13. Pac 12 Utah

    So, is this an attempt to show that Utah didn't do quite as well as BYU, or a glaring comparison of how you stack up against your peers in the rest of the PAC?

    Either way, who (in their right mind) would purposely point this out as a Ute fan??? I'd be shaking my head if I wasn't so busy LOLing (as Chris B would say)

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:52 a.m.

    BlueHusky

    "But the star rating is probably a poor predictor of success when applied to an individual."

    You coudlnt be more wrong. Its proven to be on AVERAGE a very good indicator.

    ON another article I pointed to a recent article on NFL.com that said in a recent study(or call it a review or whatever you want if you dont like the term study) of a span of 10 draft classes I believe that 44% of 5 stars were drafted.

    An uninformed person would conclude that the star ratings are not good. But that person wouldnt know what they are talking about.

    The article points out that only 1% of all recruits are given a 5 star rating, and yet 44% of them get drafted.

    isn't it interesting that it wasn't just 1% of 5 stars who got drafted even though only 1% of the college population of footblal players was 5 stars.

    This particular article didnt mention the percentage of 3 and 4 star recruits who get drafted, but I have seen other articles that show indeed the higher the star the higher the proabilty of being drafted.

    1% of population
    44% of them drafted

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:54 a.m.

    @BeSmart,

    Sunday play is not really an issue - its something that can be worked around.

    If Notre Dame wanted to join the pac 12 or Big 12(which also doesn't want byu) and if they had a no sunday rule, we'd bend over backwards to accomodate them and welcome them to the conference. We'd happy work around their sunday issue(if they had one) and we'd invite them to the conference.

    so no, sunday play is not the issue.

  • Utes Fan Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 12:06 p.m.

    I don't know why the Deseret News gives so much a higher grade to BYU than to Utah. Here are the national rankings:

    Rivals, Scout, ESPN, and 24/7:

    Utah # 68, 69, 64, and 63
    BYU # 70, 62, 62, and 66

    I would say that they are pretty even. Yes, Utah needs to improve if they want to compete in the Pac-12. No doubt about that. But head-to-head, player-to-player, BYU and Utah were very even.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 12:05 p.m.

    Cougsndawgs
    West Point , UT

    "To your point, BYUs struggles with Utah, in no way show how they would do in the PAC12..."

    Agreed, it's a data point. Nothing more. My comment was in response response to a statement of fact that byu would be competitive in the Pac-12 and we simply don't know that. Given the results of Utah/BYU match ups the last few years there is nothing to suggest that BYU would be any more competitive today than Utah is and potentially even less. Again, it's only one data point.

    "That being said BYUs large fan base and national following were what attracted the Big 12, but BYUs desire to maintain tv rights and their exclusive relationship with espn (as well as Sunday play) nixed that deal."

    If I remember right, there was a little more to it than that. Wasn't the question of the Big 12's survival also giving BYU pause? I might be wrong. Bottom line...the Big12 used different criteria and byu was a better fit for them. However, fan bases don't just "will" themselves into a conference and certainly not based on one recruiting class as Area 52 suggested.

  • LeftCoastUte DANVILLE, CA
    Feb. 6, 2014 12:17 p.m.

    The real issue for Utah is on the field performance for 2014.

    If the team gets back to a bowl and achieves a winning record in conference, then the coaching staff can point to progress, stay in tact and next year's recruiting improves.

    If the team is 5-7 or worse again next year, then I think we have a coaching change and a complete rebuilding process begins, which could take years.

    2014 recruiting class won't have much impact on what happens next fall. The issues that really matter are the quarterback situation and the brutal schedule. 3-9 is a real possibility.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 12:17 p.m.

    Chris B:
    Stop saying "we would invite them". You have no affiliation with these conferences and no say whatsoever in who they chose to bring in and leave out. You also have no idea what their real objectives or reasons are for taking certain programs over others unless you sit in the board room with them.

    Btw, ND wouldn't want U or the PAC12. I think their absence from any conference is a clear indicator that they don't need or want U so don't worry about bending over backwards for them, especially since you wouldn't be...the PAC12 officials would be, and they have no need or desire for your input or opinion.

    And BYUs happy where they are and don't need U either...our recruiting is improving, we can schedule all over the country any day we want without big brother telling us what to do, and we aren't getting abused and torn apart in a conference like U are. I'm perfectly happy without U, thank you very much.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 12:19 p.m.

    BeSmart
    Cheyenne, WY

    "Any person who says BYU has not been included in expansion for athletic reasons needs to read a little more, it is all over out there that BYU has very good athletics."

    I never said that. I said that for decades byu is about sports, sports, and sports and that it takes more than that for the Pac-12...also well documented.

    Area 52
    Tooele, UT

    @MyPerspective

    "You got to be kidding yourself if you think Utah’s robust academic portfolio and research is the reason why. We all know BYU has a higher academic portfolio than Utah.

    "You still haven’t clearly detailed Utah’s reason to be invited to the PAC12 over BYU."

    I'll make it clear for you...
    1. Academics
    2. Research
    3. Athletic prowess (Success in the BCS era)

    The criteria was very clear.

    I'm sorry but an undergrad institution like byu is fine and has a specific purpose and mission but it is not Pac-12 caliber. Even USNWR shows that...look at their assessment of byu's graduate programs. I won't even bother bringing up the Medical School and research AGAIN.

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Feb. 6, 2014 12:22 p.m.

    @ My perspective
    I agree that Utah has a a lot more research wise and graduate program wise and that is a big reason for the invite.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 12:30 p.m.

    Area 52:
    Actually Utah's academic standing and tier one research status were absolutely huge in their PAC12 invitation. They are a great school that has large research grants and a research emphasis. BYU is a great school also but as MP stated their mission is more for professional training programs than research...just saying.

    MP:
    You are correct. The tenuous situation if the Big 12 was also an issue for BYU. In hindsight BYU shouldn't have balked but hindsight is 20/20.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 12:32 p.m.

    The best part of this whole article is no perspectives complete metldown. lol

  • 3grandslams Iowa City, IA
    Feb. 6, 2014 1:29 p.m.

    When you consider the standards that apply at BYU including that honor code, this class is a home-run, A++++

  • Chewbacca Magna, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 1:42 p.m.

    Hmmm..... When you consider the standards that Bronco has set for the team, competing for a National Championship, this is probably a C at best.

  • stonewall Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 1:51 p.m.

    Chris B. is actually right about star ratings. Utahns have a very kindergarten view toward recruiting. No school in Utah has ever been a destination school for the truly big-time recruits, so they try to degrade recruiting rankings because it's an inexact science. But the problem with that is that it's using the exception to prove the rule. Obviously there are 5-star kids that will be flops and 1 and 2-star kids that will be stars. But they are EXCEPTIONS. The higher a star ranking, the higher the likelihood that player is successful. We're still talking likelihoods and not guarantees, but that's no reason to throw recruiting evaluations out the window. For every Heaps that flops, there's a Winston, Tebow, Teo, Clowney, etc. that were top recruits and did turn out to be star players.

    And people need to understand how Rivals and Scout decide rankings- they assign a point value for stars and ranking, then add up all of the signees and use the sum to rank them. Which means teams with fewer scholarships to give are by default ranked lower. Average star ranking is the better indicator

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 6, 2014 2:10 p.m.

    Utah's class rankings: Scouts #69, Rivals #68.
    BYU's class rankings: Scouts #63, Rivals #70

    A grade of "C" is about right for Utah, we had a big drop off compared to the last few years.

    But an "A-" for BYU?

    I guess the grades were relative to strength of conference?

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Feb. 6, 2014 2:28 p.m.

    Uteology
    I agree that an A- for BYU is way to high, but I think what impressed the author is the ability BYU had to compete with bigger programs and land the recruits.
    Almost all of BYU's recruits had offers from power conference teams.
    I would maybe give BYU a C+

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 2:41 p.m.

    @ Uteology and Mike Johnson:

    One thing you guys don't seem to understand. A factor in how rankings are determined is how many recruits were signed. And since BYU didn't have as many scholarships to offer as other schools, due to their number of returning missionaries, that fact cost them in the overall rankings.
    However, because they got a higher percentage of those recruits they went after and even beating out Utah, USC, Stanford and even Oregon in head to head battles, they received an A- grade.

    Utah, on the other hand, lost out on a higher percentage of their targeted recruits and went down in their average stars from last year. Literally every national recruit ranking service has them either last or second to last among all PAC12 schools. Even with fewer overall commits, BYU was still ranked better.
    As such, a C grade was as good as they could possibly expect.

    Between these 3 factors...
    1) Where Utah finished in the PAC12 this past season.
    2) The level of recruits they just committed.
    3) An extremely tough schedule next season...
    The immediate future doesn't look too bright for Utah. That's an objective assessment.

  • Sports Nutz Smithfield, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 3:07 p.m.

    @Chris B

    Utah FB = Titanic

  • AZguy Phoenix, AZ
    Feb. 6, 2014 3:11 p.m.

    I am not seeing how the #70 ranked recruiting class for BYU can be seen as an A-. Obviously, stars are not the only predictor of success, but you certainly want the best athletes possible. I love the emphasis put on effort and discipline, but you still would want that in folks that are more athletic.

    I am not disappointed, but the truth is that I don't see how this can lead to a top 25 ranking, when there are only three BCS schools lower than BYU in the recruiting rankings.

    I love the Cougs, but I also believe they must get all of the top recruits that are even remotely interested in BYU. They need to bring them in.

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 3:34 p.m.

    @Area 52 byu is not a national brand if they were their viewership would be closer to the top programs in the Country 5 million +. Your viewership on ESPN was barley over 1 million. Utah had over 600,000 + and they played on the PAC12 Network.

    Once again GMAN shows his true colors. Utah had a very good recruiting class and filled their needs if you look at the film of the players Utah got SPEED. That is what they need to compete in the PAC12. The WR should be able to get separation from the DBs in the league. The new DB should be able to play man on man and on an island.

    Utah will compete in the PAC after all they were close their first year. Remember out of the 22 players on the all PAC12 team there were no 5 or 4 star just 2 and 3 star recruits.

  • pleblian salt lake city, utah
    Feb. 6, 2014 3:51 p.m.

    Chris B,

    You confuse players "drafted" to the NFL with those "hired".

    In 2009, a BCS athlete was 7.2% more likely to make an NFL roster.

    55% of all D-1 players play for BCS schools. Assuming the best high school players are randomly distributed among Non-BCS and BCS teams, 55% should come from BCS schools and 45% from non-BCS. Alternatively, if reality is as Chris B wishes it, and BCS schools do recruit better athletes out of high school than non-BCS schools, the margin of NFL players on ROSTERS, not DRAFTED, should well exceed 80%.

    Unfortunately for Chris B, in 2009 only 62.5% of NFL rosters were paying BCS players, in spite of the fact that a significantly higher proportion of BCS players were drafted.

    Conclusion, BCS marketing and exposure increases a college player's chances of being drafted, but only barely increase the likelihood he will make an NFL roster.

    The results are even more even if you look at NFL veterans (5+ years in the league). ESPN actually found that to achieve veteran status in the NFL, it makes no difference whether they attended a BCS or a non-BCS school.

    So, BCS recruits are better, 7.2% of the time.

  • let's roll LEHI, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 4:12 p.m.

    Just an illustration of the point made by many that ranking teams on overall points rather than star average is misleading.

    Oklahoma State is ranked #27 on Rivals, it's star average is 2.89.

    Maryland is ranked #54 with a star average of 3.06. Hard to see how OSU should be 27 places ahead of Maryland, it's just a function of OSU having more scholarships this year.

    I counted at least 15 schools with a star average higher than Oklahoma State that were below them in the overall ranking.

    And please, no one try the ranking exercise one poster made with the PAC-12 and the WAC (or MTW) with the PAC-12 and the SEC...that would just be too discouraging for me as a fan of west coast football.

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Feb. 6, 2014 4:40 p.m.

    @ Crow
    BYU had over 1 million viewership on 9 games that counted.
    Utah had 600,000 during 5 games
    The TV listings do not include those games on the Pac-12 network (go ahead and look it up)
    My guess is 1-2 hundred thousand watched the Utes on the Pac-12 network (similar to the games watched on ESPNU)

  • WA_Alum&Dad Marysville, WA
    Feb. 6, 2014 5:01 p.m.

    If the grades are based on getting who they went after, then I think the A- is warranted.

    Recruiting comparisons between BYU and UoU are largely meaningless. It is not only ability/willingness to live the honor code, but it is also grades. Ask Star Lotulelei.

    Based on the inherent restrictions BYU athletics places on itself by being true to the university's mission, I think they are recruiting just fine.

    If your deepest wish for your favorite college football team is that they be the best NFL farm team in the nation, then more power to you. Makes no sense to me.

  • IRS Agent PROVO, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 5:03 p.m.

    Alright Chris B, here is the simple math for you.

    Let's assume 2% of the US population is LDS, and by default, 2% of the recruiting pool is LDS. If BYU is able to secure 90% of the LDS recruits, but exclude 90% of Non-LDS recruits (due to unwillingness to live the honor code), then the math looks like this:

    (2% x .9) + (98% x .1) = 11.6%
    Meaning that BYU's actual recruiting pool amounts to 11.6% of total recruits.
    Assuming that the 10% of Non-LDS recruits would also consider schools other than BYU, and that 10% of LDS recruits would also consider other schools, then by default, the pool for all other schools would amount to 98.2% of total recruits.

    It is a pretty simple 8th grade algebra problem that should be no issue for someone from an intellectually elite PAC-12 school to calculate.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 6, 2014 5:33 p.m.

    Tators
    Hyrum, UT

    @ Uteology and Mike Johnson:

    One thing you guys don't seem to understand. A factor in how rankings are determined is how many recruits were signed. And since BYU didn't have as many scholarships to offer as other schools, due to their number of returning missionaries, that fact cost them in the overall rankings.

    ------------

    Utah signed 20 recruits
    BYU signed 19 recruits

    Source: Scouts

  • MountainMan25 Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 6:24 p.m.

    Just another reason why Whit needs to go. It's one thing to be at the bottom of the barrel performance-wise, as long as the long-term plan and the future look bright. But when our recruiting is at the bottom of the barrel too? Utah has become a joke. We can and should be competing in the PAC 12. We should not be getting embarrassed week in and week out in nearly every sport THREE YEARS IN.

    You supposed Ute fans need to raise your expectations. I thought we had surpassed BYU...if so, why are we happy to be slightly better than them in recruiting? We should be crushing them. And don't get me started on Utah State. Isn't THREE YEARS long enough for us to see the fruits of our conference affiliation advantage? I fear we have become the Mississippi State or the Kentucky (football) of the SEC. Toting conference affiliation when we can't compete in our conference just makes us sound pathetic.

    We need a change in leadership. Whit should be fired. Chris Hill needs the boot as well.

  • eric2002x Miami, FL
    Feb. 6, 2014 7:23 p.m.

    The most significant problem for Utah in recruiting is that its PAC affiliation did it no favors in getting recruits within the PAC footprint, where it is playing games every week, where the PAC TV station is aired. 2-3 "SEC-country" recruits is more dumb luck on mid-tier recruits. As the saying goes, even a blind squirrels find a nut every once in a while.

  • rlsintx Plano, TX
    Feb. 6, 2014 7:40 p.m.

    While all these comparisons are made between teams and conferences at a national level, the real measure of success is if a given team was able to sign a set of players which fill their needs given existent (and returning in the case of BYU / Utah / USU) players. That's how they should be graded. From what I read, all three did well.

  • let's roll LEHI, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 7:43 p.m.

    @ MountainMan

    Be careful...Kentucky had the 17th ranked recruiting class in the country.

  • Bluto Sandy, UT
    Feb. 7, 2014 6:06 a.m.

    @Uteology and Mountain Man.

    If you eliminate the "Number of Recruits Factor" in these rankings and go strictly on "Star Averages", BYU's class would rank #49. Utah abt. #56.
    Either way, BYU had a better recruiting class than U.

    Perhaps more than any other program, these goofy rankings are irrelevant to BYU in the short term.
    With 18 returning missionaries and BYU's willingness to recruit JC transfers once again, these are what will have the more immediate impact on BYU's football program.
    They have an ongoing pipeline with missionaries and Bronco is managing it quite well.

    U can argue minutia until pigs fly, but the fact remains that Utah is becoming embedded as the Pac's cellar-dwelling bottom-feeder and that is hard to shake in a young recruits mind, once it sets it. Meanwhile, BYU still has it's Legacy and Brand.

    We've all had to observe the Ute-fans "Mask of False Bravado" for 3 years now.
    Boasting of affiliation instead of achievement.

    The Red Tailed "Chicken" Hawks are merely roosting now and recruits are noticing..

  • WON84 PLANO, TX
    Feb. 7, 2014 8:18 a.m.

    I like what BYU got but, these recruiting rankings and projections don't matter. What matters is who you beat.

    Furthermore, why bother with writing articles comparing BYU and Utah? They're no longer rivals and will likely not see each other often at all in any of the sports moving forward.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Feb. 7, 2014 9:04 a.m.

    WON84,
    The schools are 45 miles apart and their fan bases are intermingled. If you spent some time here on the Wasatch Front you would see that the face to face banter is much more friendly and cordial than what they are on these comment boards. Notice that many of the pot stirring comments come from out of state.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 7, 2014 11:13 a.m.

    I've heard the Utah fans comparing themselves to TCU in regards to the struggles of stepping up in SOS and conference difficulty. I was thinking about this and realized some things. First, both Utah and TCU finished their inaugural seasons in their respective conferences with winning records and a bowl game. Both programs have declined since then. So the question is, why did they perform so much better in their first season and are struggling now, even getting worse from one year to the next? Why would a program move to a tougher conference and have success initially, then start to tank? I think one answer is simply that both Utah and TCU just aren't as good now as when they entered their leagues.

    Second, I think there's a familiarity that teams get with one another when they've scouted and played each other more often. Now that teams have seen more of Utah and TCU they are more familiar with their tendencies and weaknesses and better able to exploit them, and that is the reason for digression. Any thoughts? I believe it's a combination of both of these factors.

  • p e RICHFIELD, UT
    Feb. 7, 2014 11:50 a.m.

    Some more observations:
    Chris B is the one acting like BYU has a top ten class!
    The bottom of the PAC is still the bottom of the pack.
    We (BYU) did better this year in every way.

    Having said those things, We still need to win a game against Utah.
    How is it that we are now more competitive against some higher ranked programs in their conference?
    How can it be that they have owned us for so long (Why can't we get up to play them like they do for us)?

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Feb. 7, 2014 2:02 p.m.

    Can't get up for the Utes huh. Even after having been dominated for 20 years, lost 3 in a row, bronco said that a state championship was a priority and KV called it his Super Bowl? Notice that Virginia, Utah, Wisconsin and Washington are all Power Conference teams...

  • Uncle Rico Provo, UT
    Feb. 7, 2014 5:00 p.m.

    a C in the Pac-12 is better than an A- as a mid-major, just check the scoreboard for the last 3 years.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 7, 2014 5:04 p.m.

    @Bluto

    U can argue minutia until pigs fly, but the fact remains that Utah is becoming embedded as the Pac's cellar-dwelling bottom-feeder and that is hard to shake in a young recruits mind, once it sets it. Meanwhile, BYU still has it's Legacy and Brand.

    -------------

    The same cellar dwelling bottom feeder that OWNs your team? Like I said Utah's class this year was a failure yet it's similar to your "A-" class.

    Utah lost two big commits, Shultz and Frison. It happens, we had bad recruiting year. Is it a trend? We'll find out next year.

    BYU's legacy and brand hasn't helped BYU in in-state recruiting nor has it helped it land a Big 5 conference invite.

  • CougarOnTheProwl Murray, UT
    Feb. 7, 2014 9:59 p.m.

    BYU made good use of the scholarships they had available,they filled holes at WR, LB and added some OL to the mix that could develop into very good players. Then you factor in stealing away several recruits from PAC 12 schools and BYU overall had a very productive 2014 recruiting class. BYU for the most part got who they wanted, except for 1 or 2 recruits that went elsewhere, overall they did well and I think the the class is a bit underrated. These rating systems are flawed though and we will find out how really good these players are on the field.

  • Bluto Sandy, UT
    Feb. 8, 2014 8:52 a.m.

    @Uteology

    There were 7 recruits which both BYU and Utah recruited.
    6 of them chose BYU, 1 chose Utah.
    I would say that BYU "is" winning the in-state recruiting battle.

    And for U, who endlessly touts the Star System, according to Scout, BYU won that battle as well.
    In fact, Utah was dead last in recruiting, in the Pac.

    Keep clinging to your Conference Crutch.
    Every recruit knows which teams are their respective Conference doormats, and that be U!

    Premier athletes aren't persuaded to play for losing programs which are also ignored by the Major Networks. see Utah.

  • Bluto Sandy, UT
    Feb. 8, 2014 1:27 p.m.

    @Uteology

    There were 7 recruits which both BYU and Utah recruited.
    6 of them chose BYU, 1 chose Utah.
    I would say that BYU "is" winning the in-state recruiting battle.

    And for U, who endlessly touts the Star System, according to Scout, BYU won that battle as well.

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Feb. 9, 2014 5:39 p.m.

    @besmart still not a national brand many of the teams with viewership of 5 million or more were on tv the same amount of time byu was Utah was on only 5 times on a national broadcast and were not far behind byu. For being a national brand who played the majority of their games on ESPN no one really watched. The proof is in the numbers

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Feb. 10, 2014 9:51 a.m.

    @BeSmart once again you have proven my point. The article was based on games being on the following ABC, NBC, ESPN, FOX, and FOX1. Utah had 1 gme on ESPN2 against byu and 4 games on Fox1 which all season long struggled for ratings. On Fox1 Utah played games against the likes of USU and Oregon St and still managed to have a viewership close to 700K. Where as byu was on tv 4 more times then Utah played on ESPN and NBC which has higher distrubution then Fox 1 and still only managed to brake 1 million thanks to them having Notre Dame and Texas two of the power house of football and both listed as having over 5 millio. Take away the Notre Dame and Texas game and byus viewrship is close to Utah and not nearly the National brand as byu fans claim.

    I would not be surprised with the amount of money ESPN is paying the Big 5 that they do not resign with byu when their contract expires. They will be going against the NFL on Thursday night now that NBC has that contract. ESPN will need better teams to compete against the NFL.

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Feb. 10, 2014 10:42 a.m.

    @ Crow
    It states in that research less games usually means a higher rating.
    BYU also had rated games on ESPNU and ESPNNEWS which it also states significantly reduces it.
    Utah games
    UU v. USU 311,000
    BYU Virginia (on ESPN3 due to weather) 299,000
    BYU Texas 1.29 Million
    Utah v. OSU 329,000
    BYU v. Utah 1.29 million
    Utah Oregon 747,000
    BYU v. MTSU 329,000 (2nd highest rated ESPNU game all year on Friday Night)
    UCLA v. Utah 529,000
    BYU Georgia Tech- 358,000 (6th highest for ESPNU all year)
    BYU Houston 205,000 (6th highest on ESPNNEWS all year)
    BYU Boise 1.97 Million (only 1 Pac game better on Fri. Night Oregon Civil War)
    BYU Wisc. 2.18 Million
    BYU Notre Dame 2.29 million
    USU FRESNO 1.7 MILLION
    Now this is funny BYU v. Utah was almost twice as high as any Utah game.
    USU has higher ratings than Utah during their bowl
    What really matters is where you are rated compared to other teams in the time slot.
    BYU was consistently rated near the top in all their time slots.

  • plyxply SLC, UT
    Feb. 10, 2014 11:18 a.m.

    Utah is in a tailspin and unless something major happens this next season they will be in worse shape than they could've imagined when they were allowed in the pac 10.
    Even Utah coaches are getting out while they can, both Brian Johnson and Jay Hill have moved on and I'm sure there are other Utah coaches sending resumes out as we speak.
    BYU is spinning this year's class nicely, but as we've all seen BYU doesn't usually do well with good recruits, they either burn out or transfer. As I've said before, Poppinga is the worst recruiter in the state, followed closely by Mark Weber at USU. Neither one can recruit and while BYU has it's own holier than thou attitude about players coming there, USU really dropped the ball with Weber.
    The college football schedules keep getting better, too bad only USU has amounted to anything on the field, the other two keep falling further and further from relevance.

  • Ronald Uharriet SWun City, Ca.
    Feb. 10, 2014 8:06 p.m.

    Didn’t Deseret News just reported that both Utah and BYU national average in 2014 for recruiting was between 60 - 70 out of 124 schools?

    Isn’t this just about middle of the pack or a grade C ?
    Didn’t the article say that Utah state’s recruiting was below that 60-70 mark?

    If that article is correct, your grade for Utah, (C) has to be perfect while Utah States (B) has to be false, and BYU’s (A-) has to be a fantasy of wishful thinking.

    If you grade on the curve, 62 is a C grade while anything below is below a C and anything above is above a C.

    If the article is correct, perhaps Utah got the C, BYU got the C- and Utah State got a grade somewhat lower.