There was nothing that could have been done to save the MWC once the big boys
came calling. BYU might of stayed had they gotten the TV permissions that BSU
recieved later but the MWC was to stubborn to even consider it in 2010. The MWC
should also have expanded earlier adding BSU and Nevada while adding a
championship game. It would not have saved the conferance but BYU would have
had more reason to stay with a rivalry with BSU when Utah left. Had BYU gotten
a better TV deal BSU and BYU would likley be splitting conferance championships
every year and winnig 10-12 games easily. Utah State could have replaced Utah
and SMU replaced TCU. It would not have been perfect but not as bad as is it
now.I still think BYU could come back to the MWC under the right
conditions, namely TV. Playing BSU, Utah St., SDSU and AF would still be fun
every year. It might also be their best shot at a BCS game or even a top 4 seed
with an undefeated season. Stranger things have happend in the FBS.
There was in place criteria that determined the BCS conferences. There was to
be a review the year after most of these changes. The criteria considered:
number of BCS bowls won, the number of BCS appearances, the number of top 25
finishes and there were probably others. With Utah's two BCS wins,
TCU's BCS wins and appearances, Boise State's two BCS wins (and as a
member of the MWC the MWC would have gotten credit for those wins) in addition
to all the top 25 finishes by BYU, Utah, TCU, and BSU the Mountain West would
have replaced the Big East as a BCS conference. I have often felt that was one
of the reasons that Utah, Boise State, and TCU were invited to join existing
conferences. But now with the changing format, it's just an academic
issue. Regardless, I am so happy with Utah's current position!
The biggest downside for BYU, Utah and TCU staying in the MWC - the MTN, which
was a disaster that quickly died as soon as BYU and Utah sponsors stopped
running ads on the MTN.The 2nd biggest downside was the MWC tourney
played on UNLV's home court every year.For years we were told
that there wasn't another basketball venue in Las Vegas big enough to
accommodate the MWC tournament, yet somehow, the PAC 12 was able to find one -
the difference between having a forward thinking commissioner like Larry Scott
and a loser like Craig Thompson.
Dear Brave,Insecure fans hang their entire existence on their conference
membership. I don't see BYU or BSU doing that. And the way the utah
program is headed you may just get your 20 year wish. Please feel free to slap
another PAC sticker on your bumper
timid sparrowYou're still dealing with BYU and Boise State fans
from the perspective of being nothing but punching bag for the big boys of the
PAC 12:4-5, 3-6, 2-7 = 9-18 in football3-15, 5-13, 3-5 = 11-33
in basketballbottom of the conference in nearly every other PAC 12
sportThere's no fan base more delusional and insecure than Utah
fans who are forced to cheer for their conference, because their team has done
absolutely nothing in the last three seasons worth cheering for.
@ Brave Sir RobinAnd yet your comment is totally devoid of any
insecurities or irrational thought?20 yrs of PAC12 losses
(that's about 200 hundred losses....200!) just so you won't have to
deal with some fans?Give us all a break....Somehow I
don't think Kyle Whittingham would consider you much of a Ute backer.
Made a move up in the Conference now if we could just drop the Cougs from the
Honestly, Deseret News, do you really have to rehash all of this again? Utah
fans are very happy we are in the PAC 12 both for superior athletics and the
opportunity to hob nob with the academic elites. Please leave well enough
alone. BTW, the Wall Street Journal published a report not long ago putting a
dollar value on the top 50 college football teams. Utah was ranked 39th, ahead
of Oregon State, Washington State and Arizona of the PAC 12. Utah is making
strides and will continue continue to rise.
You just might get your wish Sir Robin. I, along with many others, would be
surprised if Utah really competes for a PAC12 title much more than once each ten
to fifteen years. That gives you how many more seasons to enjoy - three, maybe
four?If your hatred for the fan bases of BYU and BSU is that severe,
then I guess you are in a better place. Enjoy your new rivalry with
Colorado.The gist of the article is dead on. It is a shame that
money, power & prestiege got in the way of what would have been a really,
really fun and good conference.
We need to remember the abosulte incompetence of the MWC commissioner and the
horrible Mtn channel. The Utes and TCU acceptance of their invitations was a
no-brainer. BYU's decision to go independent was the best option available
without an invite to a major conference and Boise State was caught in a very
difficult situation.I still wish the Utes & Cougs would have
been invited to the PAC12 together to maintain the rivalry within a conference,
but its hard to argue with either school's decision.Go Utes!
Better question:Why would we have?And for those who want
to bring up the big fish small fish thing, remember this: A "small fish in
a big pond" is bigger than a "big fish in a small pond"Just look at what the Pac 12 did to the WAC and quasi wac byu this, a combined
14-1 record. Even the best WAC team fresno got hammered by an average Pac 12
USC team in the bowl game. Shoudlnt every fish want to be as big as
possible? That's the goal right? For those who stick with the
big pond small pond thing as relevant at all would conclude that it was better
to be WAC champion Fresno this year than Alabama because WAC fresno was the
biggest fish in their small pond and Alabama was only 2nd biggest fish in their
SEC pond. See how silly that is to think that being a small fish in a big pond
is somehow bigger than a bigger fish than you, but one who is smaller relative
to their pondGo UTES
@ SRBNice try. Utah has a losing record, and your response is
I'd rather lose for the next 20 years? So. you'd rather go through 4
new head coaches, chaos, and be the doormat of the Pac 12? So much for the
"Winning Tradition" again, nice try.
After all the shuffling, I've had to ask myself what I prefer: watch my
team be the big fish in the small pond, or see them as the small fish in the big
pond.... I still can't decide! Go Utes!....and good luck BYU
(We're not all classless)
The arrogance of the Utah fan base - after going 1 - 20 or so on the road in
basketball since joining the PAC-12 and equally as bad in football is pretty
sad. So tell us, 3 years into your newly found fame you have accomplished what?
How many titles? Runner-up? Seems to me, as evidenced by reaction on these
boards, your focus is and will continue to be BYU. I for one wish that these 4
teams could have played in the same conference. The mixture of really good teams
and a few not so good teams would have made for fun football and basketball and
a more highly-respected power conference.
"I'd rather Utah not win another PAC12 game for 20 years... "Be careful what you wish for Brave Sir Robin....
Down Under,"Insecure fans hang their entire existence on their
conference membership. I don't see BYU doing that."Well,
that's because.. Hoo boy. How do I break this to you?
I disagree with the BYU fans on this board. You get better by playing with tough
competition, not by playing the Wyomings and CSU's of the world. I wish BYU
had been taken by the PAC 10. That's where our fan and recruiting base are
and it's where the big media is in the West. To make matters worse, Utah
has beaten us 4 years running. Face it, TCU, Utah and Boise all went to and won
2 BCS bowls while our team did not. Our kids are no less talented. These teams
EARNED their way into better conferences. We have no claim on anything.
There's no excuse. Let's be honest about it...
And again…as was predicted in earlier posts…Ute fans line up to
point to other PAC12 teams that did well as if that was "their school."
Did you feel extra proud when New Mexico did well in basketball in prior
years? Did you pop out your chest when BYU was the only team doing well in
football for 30 years? you lot are really funny and predictable. If your team
relentlessly loses, in any conference, you still have a weak "spoiler"
team. The conference affiliation doesn't bail you out…."Yeh, but
USC did good against Fresno State and…and…Fresno was good..so
it's almost like the Utes were good after all"….geeesch!
I think everyone won. Maybe BSU didn't do quite as well, but how they
perform the next few years out of conference will maybe reflect an overall drop
in program quality (just a hunch). Everyone will be fine. The U will hit
stride and do well in the PAC as well. BYU will get a good OC and rise up to
win some against the ND and WI type teams they'll see a couple of times a
Truth,Give it to me straight. I'm a big boy and can take it. I
don't need to hide behind a stack of pac stickers or banners and beat my
chest about conference affiliation. BYU loves their indy status and loves even
more their contract with ESPN SPORTS, the leader in sports by the way. And I
will say that ESPN also loves BYU right back. You see when you are on TV every
week in front of a national audience there is no need to hide. We ARE SECURE.
Get the difference?
The real loser here was the Mountain West. Had they moved earlier on expanding
to 12 by adding Boise, Fresno, and either Nevada OR Tulsa (so TCU had a partner)
they might have been able to hold off the destroying of the Conference. Being a BYU fan, I am still mixed about Independence, other than that we
play a way better schedule and can watch all the games on TV. Had the Mountain
West put together a better TV deal then I might still want that. Not a fan of
the WCC...I guess most of all, just sad that we under perform each year.
I have no problem with independence and making your own schedule. It would be
nice, but I really don't care about a national championship either, or
being impressive to the sports world.The older I get, the less I
care of what people think. There's happiness in that.That
said. I enjoy watching cougar football, and winning more games than those lost.
Is it better t have loved and lost than to never have loved at all? My Utes are
still freshmen but they will get better as they are getting the majority of the
best local talent and are improving. Most cougar fans would love to
be in The Pac 12. Don't hate us for being in the Conference of
Champions. I wish BYU were in the conference as well. Mostly to learn the
humility we have been feeling.
Biggest winner of this realignment, USU. After 50+ years of being kept out of
good conferences only because Utah and BYU didn't want us now we finally
have arrived in a good conference. Who know maybe someday we'll do what
Utah did at the Sugar bowl. Also now we have good teams to compete against in
basketball and the the better recruits... It's a good time to be an Aggie!
"What if Boise State, BYU, TCU and Utah had all stayed in the Mountain
West?"It would've been a competitive conference for several
years with very little revenue compared to the big conferences, and thus would
probably have the top schools fluctuate over time and probably not stand up to
the big conferences year after year.
To those who are arguing that Utah is happier as a small fish in a big pond
instead of a big fish in a small pond (MWC) are missing the point of the
article. The point is that if they had stayed then the MWC would have become a
"big pond". Everyone would have been better off, just so long as the TV
deal and other MWC idiosyncrasies could have been worked out, which my guess is
that they could have been. Point being, Utah traded long term success, power,
and long term money for short term money and a very long and uphill to any
success (case in point, ASU and Arizona joined the pac-8 to make it the pac-10
in 1978. ASU one rose bowl, Arizona none). Its a sad thing.
If Boise had a half decent academic program we would probably consider them for
a Pac 12 invite. But the problem is if we did, there isn't another
good team anywhere in the western united states that would be worthy of making
it the pac 14.
Each of the teams have a lot more money now. BYU has its own football network.
Utah is the 39th ranked college football franchise. TCU is retaking control of
the Dallas/Ft. Worth market, and Boise State has name recognition.
"is everyone really better off than if they would have stayed in the
MWC?"Considering Utah's brand new softball stadium, track
complex, football facility, future basketball facility, the upcoming Huntsman
Center renovations, the upcoming football stadium expansion, and the parade of
great schools Utah gets to compete against every season in every sport, I would
say yes. Utah is much better off.Go Utes!
The article doesn't touch on the $$$ the programs are now earning.
That's what it is really all about. Would it be better for the U and the Y?
No. The PAC-12 TV deal and the ESPN agreement for the Y mean they have a future.
If the football world turns into a BCS 4 conference 16 team world, as some think
will happen, most of the MWC will be destitute because those 64 teams will
gobble up all the dollars. Boise may find a place, San Diego State too because
of its location, but the rest will become paupers. They did the right thing for
survival, but it's not a world I really admire where schools constantly
sell their academic souls for college football.Go Cats!
While I can't blame Utah for accepting the invitation to join the PAC-12, I
don't think there is any doubt that all four schools would be much better
off if all had remained in the MWC. So the culprit is Utah, since the Utes
started the avalanche.
Money is driving college football; teams and conferences pursue the best deal
possible. Money is driven by advertising dollars, which in turn is
driven by the number of TV screens. Considering that the greater LA area alone
probably has several more times the number of TV screens than the entire MWC
area, even with TCU, the MWC was destined to lag far, far behind in the money
game.I can't blame Utah for jumping at the chance to join the
PAC 12, and can't blame their fans for being excited about it. I wish my
Cougars were given the same chance. What I'm happy about is
being able to see every BYU football and basketball game. Not too many years
ago we had to sit in a church building and hope we could maintain the sattelite
feed for most games.
BYU, BSU, TCU, and Utah all improved their position in 2010. In terms of who
came out "smelling the prettiest," I would rank it 1) Utah, 2) TCU, 3)
BYU, 4) BSU. If you include the other sports, especially basketball, then I
would have to rank BYU last, because it sucks being in the WCC. It is a no win
situation. BYU definitely took a step backward in basketball. I am not ashamed
to admit that I am envious of Utah's admission to the PAC 12. With a little
time they will be competitive and maybe compete for the conference title on
occasion in both basketball and football.In a conference, you have
the motivation of a conference championship. You don't have that with
independence. But there is no question BYU is better off now than they
were with the MWC under MWC's terms, but there a lot of things about
independence that leaves a bitter taste in this fan's mouth.
I get what Sir Robin is saying, he just said it in an awkward way. Utah
wasn't really relevant in football until 1994 compared to other teams in
the WAC/Mountain West. It took a minute to find enough athletes and a coaching
change to really put them over the top. I don't know if Utah needs a
coaching change or not (they might) but I see similarities to the past with
catching up with the competition. Utah caught Colorado State and BYU and San
Diego State and they are catching Oregon State, UCLA, and Cal now. They've
gone from having no chance to being one possession away in almost every
basketball game in 2 1/2 years. I'm a fan and I'll go whether the
Utes are top or bottom of the league. I think the future is bright up on the
hill. I'm not so sure for Provo.
"What if Boise State, BYU, TCU and Utah had all stayed in the Mountain
West?"That's easy - Boise State, BYU, TCU and Utah would
all be better off than they are now. All four programs are now completely
irrelevant on a national level.
@ gilmertexascougarAre you saying byu would not have joined the
PAC12 if invited? Of course they would. Any of the four schools in this
article would have done the exact same thing as Utah and let the chips fall
where they may.The only culprit is the ever changing landscape of
college sports, conferences, television and ultimately money to finance athletic
departments.Saying Utah is the culprit is a cop out.
Honestly this is not a question I ever even think about. Why would any of them
want to be back in the mwc? To me it is a no brainer for all 3 that left, not
even worth considering.
@PAC12Fan:I may be alone on this, but I have no desire of BYU being
in the PAC12. None!I would be super disappointed if they did. Money
is not worth it.
Nothing is ever impossible. Not probably, maybe, but not impossible.Utah loves being in a BCS Conference and even if they lose every game in the
Pac 12, they would not give up the opportunity of being in a major conference.
The same thing can be said about TCU and the Big 12. BYU would love to be in a Big Boy Conference but for one reason or another,
they don't get the invitation. Boise State has lost their
coach and no longer dominates the MWC. The MWC is not the power
house that it use to be among the mid majors.Solution: Everyone
make compromises and stop acting like Congress. The compromise is with the
powers that be which determines who is an automatic qualifier Congress, that if
TCU returns to the MWC from the Big 12, and Utah returns to the MWC from the Pac
12, and if BYU returns to the MWC from being an Independent, and if Boise State
agrees to stay with the MWC, and the MWC allows each team the right to negotiate
their own TV deals, then those said powers must agree to grant the MWC an
automatic birth in the play off system.
We would still be dominating those teams thats for sure. We always won Tcu,
boise and utah when we played so we would still be winning all the times in the
I expect BYU to move back to the MWC after their basketball obligation to the
WCC ends. That is, if the MWC allows BYU to come back...
@pac12fan...The better of the local talent goes to Utah??? I thought
that ute fans knew how to read the "stars" chart... BYU has boxed the
utes ears in Basketball over the past few years and the difference seems to be
getting bigger not less... In the last 2 years BYU has acquired four 4 stars
while Utah has one... They also have four 3 stars while the utes have 2... So
please explain the reasoning for your comment...In football the utes
have done slightly better but I emphasize the word "slightly".
If BYU wants to win another national championship in football, as expressed by
Bronco, they need to either get into one of the Big Five conferences, or
consistently schedule enough of those teams every year for SOS.SOS
is totally important in getting into the final four, which is why the Big Five
have created interconference scheduling pacts between them. This cuts down on
how many lower-level schools they'll be playing in the future, meaning the
MWC will never have any team with a high enough SOS to get into the final four,
even if undefeated.BYU CANNOT win the NC again if they rejoin the
MWC. THAT would be admitting they're just mid-major fodder.
It's been almost 4 years since I've had to listen to a Utah or byu
game on the radio because they weren't on tv.
Big 12 Call Yet?"If Boise had a half decent academic program we
would probably consider them for a Pac 12 invite."Who's
"we".The Utes are nothing but yes-men; we all know which
schools are the real power brokers in the PAC 12 and Utah certainly isn't
included among them.Get over yourself CB. The Utes will always do
whatever they're told to do by the PAC.
Unfortunately, money is the only thing that matters. I, for one, am disappointed
that BYU has nothing to play for but pride (they will never have the athletes to
play for a national title). They need to get into a conference, like the Big 12,
but they're making too much money being Independent. At least Utah has an
'outside' chance every year to play for something.
If the primary objective of these athletic departments is $$$, then the moves
were good. However, the price of that $$$ is total athletic irrelevance. That
I really don't know that BYU would join the PAC-12 if offered. It would
have to offer no Sunday play and Byu would be forced to give up some big time
consessions dealing with BYUTV. The PAC 12 Network cannot even come close to
what BYUTV has to offer and so they would look to see what they could steal by
way of money. BYU would love to win another NC, but the powers that be
don't have that as their number one goal. I for one am glad that BYU is
Independant, that goes with who we are....independant of being controlled by
other schools. They don't tell us what to do and how to do it, all the
while we bow down to them be their servants.
@Chris BA small fish in a big pond gets eaten by the bigger fish or
must hide in the shallows in order to survive. Its far better to be independent
like a whale or shark and choose where to feed. Some years the whale feeds on
guppies and gains strength. Other years it feeds on bigger fish. The
independent fish always makes sure it gets its fill while never having to hide
in the shallows.
"What if Boise State, BYU, TCU and Utah had all stayed in the Mountain
West?"Then no one would know what playing a real schedule looks
like. Going 10-3 in the MWC was meaningless, relative to the Big 5. The
struggles Utah and TCU face in tougher leagues only proves it.Go
After all of the dust cleared I am happy knowing that USU is where is should be
for the first time in a couple of decades. The MWC gives the Aggies regional
teams that they can build rivalries with. USU has made major improvements in
every aspect of their football program and have shown that they can compete for
the conference title in their first year. That is what college football should
be all about. It is a shame that the Utes and Cougars gave all of that up for
$$$.Before you slam me about being a small fish in a small pond let
me point out the other school I have a degree from, The University of Texas at
Austin. Perhaps you have heard of the Longhorns. Yes, I love Texas having a
legitimate shot at a title every few years, but I would rather be a USU football
fan in the MWC than an Iowa State or Kansas football fan in the Big 12. If you
can't compete in your conference you're just collecting a paycheck to
pad the conference leaders' stats.
@uteologyutah's futility is not only because of the harder
schedule as you want to claim, there are other factors as well. One is that
utah's coacheing staff is in constant disarray. Another is that once urban
meyers recruited talent was gone utah has been in steady decline, the tougher
schedule has just made it more apparent. utah's 2008 team would have
competed just fine in the pac12, they probably would have won 10 games that
year, but they simply are not as good, and never really have been, as that one
year made utah "fans" think they were. Go ahead and look at
their year to year records and the places they finished in the mwc, it is lower
upper end for the most part and not particularly impressive. You utah
"fans" just suffer from a delusion of what you think utah once was and
that delusion is feeding into another delusion of what you think utah is now.
@SoonerUteI will answer your question, MWC will not take BYU back,
if the remaining founder schools have any say (AFA, Co St, NM, SDSt, UNLV, Wyo).
How many of those schools have played BYU or are scheduled to play
BYU? There is much shouting about tradition and rivalary from the blue team
when a certain red team drops them from the schedule but where is that same
tradition/rivalary mantra regarding other schools?Wyoming = 77 gamesColo State = 69 gamesNew Mexico = 60 gamesLong deep
traditions and 0 games since independence and 0 games scheduled. Those schools
will probably never schedule BYU again. Yea, "I know we are so good blah
blah blah and they are grateful blah blah blah..."Every other
sport (except Mens Volleyball) sacrificed for independence in football.
Re: UtelogySo I guess going undefeated and beating Alabama in the
Sugar Bowl was meaningless since Utah was a MWC team. You said it - not me.
Would I ever want BYU to join the PAC 12? No. I don't want us affiliated
with those schools or those fan bases. Utah joining the PAC 12 is like the
high school band geek who gets to hang out with the cool kids as long as he
carries their backpacks. Face it guys, they don't respect you. I'm glad we are out of the MWC, and I am fine with being independent. But
I will admit, I would rather be in the BIG 12. We would have actually fit in
with that crowd.
How many times are you all going to argue about this topic in these comments
Enough with the fish in a pond analogies already. Must be a very slow news day
when the DNews stirs up this debate again. BYU and Utah made the
right decision by leaving the MWC. The annual Mtn. TV revenue was ridiculous for
either school to sustain an athletic program at the level they wanted.You can complain about Utah taking the PAC 12 money all you want, but had you
been the AD at a public university where funds are already sparse, you would
have too. Budgets rule college sports just like they do any business, and
college sports is business whether we acknowledge it or not.Neither
school is tearing it up on the field/court. Fans of both schools are
ridiculously impatient and the expectations are absurd. I enjoy the
experience of being in the PAC 12 even though Utah has performed poorly. That
is a paradox few understand, but wins against PAC 12 teams are more meaningful
and fun for me as a fan than a season sweep over Wyoming or CSU.
Nobody knows exactly what the conversations were, but based on what I know, I
honestly believe BYU had the opportunity to go to the BIG12. But we blew it.
The BIG12 would have accepted our no Sunday play, which should have been the
only issue.But BYU was nervous that Texas, Oklahoma might accept the
PAC offer. BYU tried to flex its muscle for TV rights, and the BIG12 laughed,
and BYU did not want to tarnish relationships with the religious schools of the
WCC only a short time after accepting.I do wish BYU could move all
sports out of the WCC and back into the MWC, except for football staying
independent. I wouldn't even mind a partnership deal like Notre Dame has
with the ACC playing 5 MWC teams each year in football.I don't
wonder what could have been, because once the BIG12 and PAC12 came calling; TCU
and Utah would have been silly not to accept. However, I do think both schools
put too much pride in their conference affiliation, and need to be more
concerned about winning than being satisfied with conference membership.
Worf,Mention that you don't want your cougars in the Pac 12.
You stand alone.
@ DraperUteFan:How about the losses to Pac12 teams...Just
Wondering...if those are meaningful too? I hope so, because there are, and will
be, more losses than wins!
@Ed GradyI clearly said going 10-3 in the MWC is meaningless, going
undefeated and beating 4 ranked teams is anything but.@DuckhunterWhich Urban Meyer recruits? Name some from the 2008 undefeated
season.The last three years in the MWC Utah was having the same
coaching and injury issues that we have in the PAC-12. In particular:* Annual OC changes* Annual injured QBThe difference? Utah
went 33-6 in the MWC, only loses to AP ranked teams.
I believe the record will show that in fact BYU was invited to the PAC-12. It
is my understanding that all was a go until the other 10 school presidents
voted, two voted no, and not becaause of the athletic program. So bigotry is
still alive and well. If BYU wanted to have a chance of getting to the national
stage it had no choice but to go independent in football. Football is king and
provides the lion share of the revenue so a school needs to make sure that
program is in the best position possible. No one knows what the future might
hold, but the chances of getting those four programs back together is beyond
slim. I also think that over the next several years the playoffs will expand
and as that happens confernce affiliations will matter less and SOS will matter
more (providing you win). Good luck to the U and the Y, I hope they work out
like both fan bases dream, but each has its own unique problems to overcome to
get where they want to be.
I think the simple answer is three out of four of those teams have been to BCS
games and have been a part of elite level success in the BCS era of football.
The other program would be clinging onto the past success of their program.@duckyI wonder how you feel about the Utes still owning your
team for all of these years with all of that "mid-level" talent they
have. What exatly does that say about your beloved cougar program. Seems to me
you should count yourself as one of those delusional "fans".
I am a former Uta and Cougar..... .loved my times at both schools. And I have
nothing against either program. But with the way realignment is going, and the
fact conference playoffs are now playing a key role in the bowl selection
process, BYU (and other independents) will be missing that marque opportunity to
prove themselves worthy of consideration in the national playoff picture.BYU has put them selves in an extraordinarily hard position to get
themselves into a premium bowl game now. They will not be able to close out
their season with a branding games. BYU will continue to find itself in the B
or C slot on the ESPN schedule... if it was all about the money.... they did
good. If it was about getting on the national stage.... independence
hasn't helped them much. Marque losses to good teams don't buy you
much.And what you did 10 years ago.... means nothing.
MWC is good luck for Utah teams regarding recognition. USU has been getting more
attention even with losing to BYU and the Ute's. And BYU being INDY is a
slow death. And finally the Ute's need to start to win more games since I
work with a lot of Ute fans and they are getting really tired of losing seasons.
It is a good time to be an Aggie.
Still no news and why talk about it? Tell us when news is really here.
Indpendent is fine the way it is along with our espn and byutv. Well, I like to
see wcc go away but Dave Rose said last May 2013 "wcc fit perfectly".
Poyman,Try looking at the Wall Street Journal dated January 5, 2014
in an article by Darren Everson. Utah is ranked 39th. BYU is not on the list
of 50. My critique of this Deseret News ariticle is that it offers
no new information and is a rehash of previous articles that have appeared in
this newspaper dealing with the same subject. What is the value in speculating
what might have happened if all these teams had stayed in the MWC? Nothing.
The Deseret News should have Dan Jones and Associates go out and poll the fans
of these schools or at least the fans of Utah and BYU and see how the fans feel
about the current situation their school athletic departments find themselves
in. Also, the article ignores the opinions and feelings of prep athletes in this
State. How do the preps feel about the changes? How do they feel about the
opportunity to play on a bigger stage in a conference like the PAC 12? Also,
what is the economic benefit of these changes to the State of Utah? Every study
I have seen so far points to the State benefiting by having Utah in the PAC 12.
@ Just WonderingA loss to Arizona, though ranked #1, is still a
loss. No rocket science there, but I feel better about losing to them than I
would losing to Portland, LMU, and Pepperdine. There are no moral
victories and losses are never fun, but consider it this way...was beating Idaho
State more meaningful than beating Texas? Thought so. As a fan base, BYU of
should understand this basic concept...beating an elite team is more fun and
means more to your program than beating cupcakes. BYU hasn't
had much success against the likes of Notre Dame or FSU, but they have beaten
them so I'm guessing those wins are pretty valuable considering how
difficult they have been to come by against top competition. BYU plays top
competition and they lose more than they win, but the wins are sweeter than
beating up on ISU, Nevada, LMU, or Pacific.Would BYU rather compete
at the highest level and risk losing more games or continue to dominate lower
tiered teams and have it mean nothing? If you play tougher competition you are
going to lose more games (see BYU as an independent in football).
People talk about the "Big Bowl" or "Major Bowl" access and how
it affects BYU. People we are debating about 1 game. Yes, 1 game at the end of
the year and lets face it if it isn't the playoff games what is the
difference from the hunger bowl and the poinsettia bowl or even the sun bowl.
It is all the same. If BYU goes undefeated, which keep in mind any team in the
country whether it be from the big conferences or the smaller conferences they
will have access to the playoff game. Let's all pump the breaks. And the TV
exposure, people talk about BYU only getting B or C slots on ESPN. Well a B or
C slot is a lot better than being seen on regional coverage on the pac 12
station. The thing that really sucks is that BYU is not in a major conference.
My preference is that we join the BIG12 or even the Pac. But for now BYU has
every opportunity that everyone else has and even better when it comes to
exposure. All they have to do is win.
Why is this article written?Utah and TCU made the right decision by
accepting Pac-12 and Big 12 invites. Both those conferences will benefit them
for the long run. If you want to be the best, you have to beat the best. Utah
and TCU are in a conference where they can play the best week in and week out.
They have the opportunity to be the best, but they need to start winning first
and find their footing. Boise State made the right move joining the
MWC because it's the best option for them to succeed. BYU I
believe made a mistake in going Indy. What do they have to play for anyway?
National exposure is great with their ESPN contract. But what good is their
national exposure when they get embarrassed by the BCS teams on their schedule?
The MWC offers a conference championship for the cougs. It will also offer them
a possible berth in a BCS bowl when the new postseason system begins. Being
independent they have no BCS bowl tie in.If BYU, TCU, Utah, and BSU
were in the MWC. Nothing would have changed!
Mute point, because nobody could predict what ESPN, FOX, CBS, ROOT, etc would
have done if BYU, Utah, and TCU would have stayed in the MWC. I do think they
would have been a major player in the conferences, but who knows for sure.One thing I do know is this....Utah is not respected in the PAC
10.2....BYU made a knee jerk reaction to not being invited with Utah, and TCU
will never challenge OU or Texas in the B12. Was it profitable for them....you
bet, but it is starting to weight heavy on the minds of Ute, Cougar, and Frog
fans who's teams are not getting the attention they once enjoyed...The winners were Fresno, USU, Nevada, San Jose, and Boise.... I say
Boise because they will reach the playoffs in the MWC before Byu or Utah due to
playing the schedules of the Pac and Indy status.BYU back to the
MWC???? Not if SDSU, Wyoming, New Mexico, CSU, UNLV, and AF have anything to say
about it.... The Cougars made their bed...know lie in it!Fight On!
RealBlue's comments echo mine (or vice versa). Of the 100 teams or so in
the "big conferences" how many have EVER won a national championship?
Before 1910 it was all Ivy League schools. Then we see the same old names over
and over: Michigan, Penn State, Notre Dame, USC, Oklahoma, et cetera.The vast majority of college football teams have NEVER won a national
championship.BYU won one.They may never win one again.
Utah and TCU will probably never win one. But at least they will have a non-zero
probability to win one.Does BYU have a non-zero probability? Yes.
12-0 will get them in the playoffs. Notre Dame and Penn State won lots of
NC's as independents.Maybe sometime I'll calculate the
odds of BYU, Utah, Boise, and TCU winning the NC. Maybe I'll assign that to
some of my students at UCI. Hmmm. That's a good idea. I'll let you
know how it works out.
@ RealBlue"Yes, 1 game at the end of the year and lets face it
if it isn't the playoff games what is the difference from the hunger bowl
and the poinsettia bowl or even the sun bowl. It is all the same"The difference is, playing in a BCS bowl offers a school more money, better
national exposure, and playing a marquee BCS opponent in the post season that
will catapult a team going into the next season. The Hunger bowl and Poinsettia
bowl don't offer that. You get a mediocre bowl opponent with less exposure
and money. BYU won't make the final four at all because the
playoff system is designed to favor the Big 5 conferences and no one else. With
that said, BYU as an Indy has no BCS bowl to play for and will have to settle
playing in a mediocre bowl game. The MWC at least offers you a chance at a BCS
@81ute and oleballcoach... I don't want to see the Cougars back in the MWC
but I think you are dead wrong about your assertion that a handful of MWC teams
would not welcome them back... The Cougs have already played SDS in Football and
they are scheduled home and home over the next couple of years with UNLV... In
addition UNLV took BYU's assistant Basketball Coach and made him their Head
Basketball Coach 2 years ago (in the heat of the battle) and just last year the
UNLV AD made a passionate pitch to reach out to BYU and see if they could get
them back in the Conference... WYO still bears a grudge I understand, but they
are the tip of the tail and carry no weight with Conference members.@Dutchman... I found your article... It's a listing on the worth of
Football teams in the eyes of a Finance Professor by the name of Ryan Brewer out
of University-Purdue University Columbus.... Interestingly though that this same
Finance Professor is the basis of the January 7,2014 WSJ Article that I
referred to in my earlier post where Utah is ranked #46 and BYU #43.
Ed GradyRe: Utelogy "So I guess going undefeated and beating
Alabama in the Sugar Bowl was meaningless since Utah was a MWC team. You said it
- not me."BYU hating Utah fans are so obsessed with diminishing
anything BYU might accomplish as an Independent or WCC member, that they're
willing to marginalize EVERYTHING Utah accomplished as a WAC and/or MWC
member.What's laughable is the two greatest accomplishments in
Utah men's athletic history happened in 1998 (while Utah was a member of
the WAC) and in 1944, when Utah, technically, wasn't a member of any
conference.Since joining the PAC, the Utes haven't accomplished
anything of any significance in any men's sport.
A Utah man am I, til the day I die. And I'd rather die than go back to the
mtn. I've always watched Utah ball. To be honest, now that my team competes
in the Pac I realize how dull playing in the Mtn was. Sure, I do miss churning
out wins and never missnig out on a bowl game but having tasted what the Pac 12
has to offer and playing quality teams every week, I wouldn't go back.
As far as national exposure is concerned, of the four teams mentioned in the
article, I believe BYU is currently in the best situation. As an independent,
they certainly have more control with the flexibility of scheduling. True, they
have to schedule good teams and be able to beat them on the road. Arizona State
and Arizona left the WAC in 1977. Since that time the two schools, as members
of the PAC-10 and PAC-12 have combined for a total of 0 National Championships
in football, according to NationalChamps.net. That's 37 years of toil for
no titles. What are Utah's chances of improving on the Arizona
schools' record? Somewhere between slim and none in my opinion. With the
exception of Boise State, all four schools have good coaches. What they are
able to accomplish with the talent they recruit is what ultimately makes a
difference. History doesn't favor any of these programs, but, as it
presently stands, none of them are going to be playing for a national
championship in football any time soon. (Except maybe the Cougars).
"Only a fool trips on whats behind them" - Ray Lewis.Its
water under the bridge and way down stream, move on. - Me
I would love to see TCU and Utah succeed in their respective conferences.. It
would only add credibility to the teams they once played in the MWC. If they
don't succeed, it will only indicate to the rest of the world that BYU
& BSU will never belong either. The sooner they climb their way to success,
all the better.I agree that I would rather be playing with the
"Big Boys" and losing (all the while getting a little bit better each
year), than conceding to a lesser level of play and feeling content with
mediocre success. Give each of these teams a little while to
adjust, and they will come up to par and compete in their new environments.
Looking forward to one of them having a break out year, and blazing a trail for
@DuckhunterGo ahead and look at their year to year records and the
places they finished in the mwc, it is lower upper end for the most part and not
particularly impressive. You utah "fans" just suffer from a delusion of
what you think utah once was and that delusion is feeding into another delusion
of what you think utah is now.-----------In the MWC:* Utah 7 seasons with a better win-loss record as compared to BYU which
had 5.* Utah had 4 titles (BYU also had 4)So you're not
impressed with:* Utah had 4 AP ranked teams (BYU had 5), including
two top 5 rankings (BYU had 0).* Utah had two undefeated seasons (BYU had
0)* Utah had two major bowl wins (BYU had one "Quest")That's okay, Utah's not trying to impress you. They've
impressed enough top in-state recruits to make BYU irrelevant.
@ PoymanYou miss-understood....those schools DO NOT want the Cougars
back in the MWC, as for passionate pitch....is that the same passionate pitch
the Big 12 extended to BYU? That worked out well for the Cougars didn't it?
BYU played SDSU in a bowl game....what is the other MWC team to play
a regional game with the Cougars in any sport since the departure? I know one
thing, if I was Utah State, I would be on the side of Cowboys for what BYU did
to them, when BYU asked USU to stay in the WAC, then BYU bolted to the WCC and
kept USU in the WAC.....classy Cougars!Fight ON!
It's misleading to compare Utah with BYU by looking at Utah's PAC 12
record in football. Playing strong BSC opponents each week is different than
gearing up for them occasionally while playing lesser competition. From 2001-2010 when both Utah and BYU were in the same conference, Utah's
record was 20-9 against BCS opponents while BYU was 13-16. From 2005-2010 when
Whittingham and Bronco took over (same time), Utah's record against BSC
schools was 11-5 while BYU went 8-9. From 2011 to the present, Utah
was matched up weekly against PAC 12 schools and trying to catch up in depth
with their conference foes. Football is a battle of attrition. Playing the big
boys can break down a roster. Also, Utah hasn't been able to stay healthy
at QB which is vital for success. In 2011 though, Wynn did play all year except
for his first shoulder surgery before the bowl game where Terrance Cain and Utah
was destroyed by Boise State (Utah's first bowl loss in the previous ten
appearances). Still, in 2011 Utah was 4-5 in the PAC 12 but 2-0 against other
BCS schools that year. So overall, Utah played 11 BCS games and was 6-5.
@Bleed CrimsonThe reason why there is NO BCS anymore is because of
this reason. Now when I say this I want you to pay attention. You ready? To give
Everyone the opportunity to get to the highest level, which is winning the
National Championship. You are still stuck in the old system. Just to inform you
the so called BCS bowls are now playoff bowls. Just like the Rose Bowl, that is
now a playoff bowl. Let me say this again, ANY team that goes undefeated or have
atleast 1 loss will more than likely be invited to a playoff bowl. I say that
because that has been the trend in the past, look at all the teams in the BCS
bowls, they all had 0 to 1 loss for the year. It will be the same going forward.
Let's bring it locally, what are the odds that utah runs the table with 0
to 1 loss? Well the last few seasons hasn't worked out to well. And by the
look of their recruiting it will yield the same result for many years. So what
is all the hubbub bub?
Snack Pac,"....the Utes haven't accomplished anything of
any significance in any men's sport."Utah beat No. 5
Stanford in football and No. 20 UCLA in basketball. Last season the men's
basketball team made a nice run in the PAC 12 tourney. Bobster,Using Arizona as an example of a football program that has not won a
football championship is a poor example and everyone should stop using it. I
followed WAC football from its inception in the early '60's through
the '70's and Arizona was never a football power. Arizona's
motivation for leaving the WAC and joining the PAC was for academic reasons.
The faculty senate pushed it so that Arizona would be tied academically to
Stanford, Washington, Cal, UCLA etc. Indeed, six years after Arizona joined the
PAC they received membership in AAU, the elite place for academic institutions.
That was about the time Arizona became a basketball school. So, let's
accept the truth about football and Arizona and stop using it as an example of
Utah's football future.Also, the Deseret News sent out an email
asking for more civility. PAC 10.2 is a slur. Everyone stop using it.
Re: Down Under "Insecure fans hang their entire existence on their
conference membership. I don't see BYU or BSU doing that. "You don't see them in a big time conference either.
"If BYU goes undefeated, ... they will have access to the playoff
game."You are forgetting some things.1) Playoff
selection is by committee, not ranking. Even if it was ranking, undefeated
mid-majors don't rank high. Utah ended 2008 regular season at 7, Boise at
9.2) BYU doesn't play anyone. Not their fault. They tried to
schedule tough, but this year only one team in the top 20. A committee compares
that to a school that slugged in out in the SEC or Big 12? BYU comes up
short.3) It is all about the money. Given a chance, the committee will
choose a Big 5 school over the small and independent. Outrage? Maybe, but its
their money. They're just pretending everyone has a shot at it.Good news. Going undefeated should get BYU access to a Big Money Bowl,
provided another mid-major is not ranked above them.
@quest obsessedI knew some utah "fan" would bring up the
BYU/utah record of late. Congratulations? My comment had nothing to do with BYU
but like any utah "fan" searching for something, anything, to ease the
pain of utah's futility that is the one and only thing you have. It is
ironic as well considering what utah "fans" so delusionally think utah
is, but never has been. You keep comparing yourselves to BYU but BYU isn't
who you should be hoping to be compared to, it is the rest of the pac12 and in
that aspect utah has proven itself to be woefully sub par. But bring up BYU
again, I like it when you do because it just continues to prove what the
barometer is for utah "fans". lol
I am totally happy that BYU is not in the pac and forced to abandon their
principles about Sunday play. Utah apparently had not problem with this. I
would rather stand for what I believe in that sell out to big money. In the end
it is all about who you are and what you stand for and not the size of your
wallet or stadium.
Down underSalt Lake City, UTTruth,Give it to me straight.
I'm a big boy and can take it. I don't need to hide behind a stack of
pac stickers or banners and beat my chest about conference affiliation. BYU
loves their indy status and loves even more their contract with ESPN SPORTS, the
leader in sports by the way. And I will say that ESPN also loves BYU right back.
You see when you are on TV every week in front of a national audience there is
no need to hide. We ARE SECURE. Get the difference?________The leader in sports is losing market share to Fox, CBS and NBC Sports.Yeah the ESPN contract. What were the ratings of BYU games this past season? A
national audience hides by changing the channel. Why watch BYU lose to Utah and
others? Contracts are made to be broken. BYU is SECURE in the fact that
they sign bowl contracts years in advance. Gotta keep the fan base happy!
Gone fishinSeattle, WAI am totally happy that BYU is not in the pac
and forced to abandon their principles about Sunday play. Utah apparently had
not problem with this. I would rather stand for what I believe in that sell out
to big money. In the end it is all about who you are and what you stand for and
not the size of your wallet or stadium._________This is
priceless! Care to retract any of your comment? BYU sold out, left the MWC, and
chased the money worm dangling on the ESPN hook! You are right, in the end it is
all about who you are and what you stand for. LOL!
Here's how byu's done against PAC-12 teams, in spite of not playing
them in a back-to-back, week-in-week-out grind, but rather at random while
spanning all 3 years--2 wins against teams finishing at bottom of
conference standings;Getting absolutely brutally curb-stomped by
only 3 teams finishing > .500, twice at home/once on neutral;Winless against this school which the byu-fanbase routinely refers to by all
sorts of vile/unChristlike labels, to the tune of 0-3 [bringing our
utter-domination of them up to 4 Str/5 of 6/9 of 12/14 of 21 and easily widening
the Forever insurmountable overall record to, 57-34-4.]2-6 overall
record to date and now they'll showcase unheard of courage being set to
play in '14 against PAC-12's winless last-place finisher in '13,
CAL, including getting utterly smashed by CU!However, they'll
be plenty rested after barely concluding w/a bye-wk/UNLV & Savannah State at
home....This brutal November stretch will follow a game against Juggernaut MTSU!
Yet they "debate" which team is in fact better, The U/byu, following
each annual U-victory? Lol
I loved this article it was well thought out and excellently written. Having
spent a decade living in a power conference state before moving to Utah my
perspective may be different.It has been tough to watch the BYU vs Utah game in
the beginning part of the season. It had been a tradition for so long to have it
be the last conference game and the energy and enthusiasm was great. The last
four games have lacked the intensity and honestly BYU has played awful
especially this year. I would have preferred to have the Mountain West become a
strong conference and have the rivalry maintained.BYU soundly beat Boise State
but it was a very depleted team which gave a lot of confidence to BYU's
best players. The two stellar wins by BYU; Texas and Boise State were followed
by three major disappointments, Notre Dame, Wisconsin and Washington. Utah which
I have followed simply belongs exactly where their record indicates near the
bottom of the PAC 12. Independence for BYU hasn't translated into
meaningful wins so how has it benefited the program? Utah state proved they had
a good team without Chuckie Keeton that was a positive.
@poywoman... "utah and Mississippi State, although the Bulldogs are much
more competitive in the SEC than the utes are in the pac12."Utah- 2 BCS winsMississippi State- 0 BCS wins....Never been to BCS
bowlSo in that regard their more like the cougies...fail.....try
Gone fishin',"I am totally happy that BYU is not in the pac
and forced to abandon their principles about Sunday play."BYU
apparently has no problem offering scholarships and stipends to athletes who
will leave their athletic teams and play on Sunday. What is the difference?
Yes, other students graduate from college and take jobs that require Sunday
work. But to me that is quite different from someone who is simply playing a
Im a lifelong USC Trojan fan living here in Utah. It always drove me crazy
listening to the Ute fans talk about how there program was 1 of the best in the
country. That they didnt get any respect. I still remember when Utah joined
the Pac12 my Ute fan buddies started already counting the national championships
and rose bowls. I told them to look at Wash St, Oregon St, and Arizona, look at
there history that is what Utah will be. Thats not a bad thing but all Utah can
do is hope for a magical season every once in a while. There is no way they will
complete year in and year out. Its just too hard. FYI: Arizona in PAC- No Rose
Bowls 1 shared title, OSU 3 Rose Bowls since 1941 last in 1965, and WSU 3 Rose
Bowls since 1931. Its a joke to think you can come right in and start winning.
Nice to have Ute fans served some humble pie! FIGHT ON SC!
@dutchmanThat was incredibly weak. What a player does after he
leaves BYU has nothing to do with BYU upholding BYU's, and the LDS
churches, standards. Those standards are institutional and are based on the
standards of the lDS church which owns BYU. While there athletes are expected to
live to those standards but once they leave they can make their own choices
however the institution itself maintains those standards forever as it should.
utah on the otherhand has no standards, or at least very little in
the way of standards. It shows us that all of the time and you know what? That
is fine, they have to conform to the lack of standards that a secular
institution must have.So tell me this since you are ostensibly LDS,
when an LDS student athlete chooses to attend utah does that mean they are
personally forgoing the standards of the LDS church simply because the
institution they chose to attend lacks those standards? Couldn't we say
those utah's LDS student athletes went against their religion long before a
BYU student athlete that plays professional sports on Sunday? Who apostacized
It is just speculation as to what would have happened in the MVC had stayed the
same. However it is safe to bet if Utah had not joined the PAC-12 Conference
many of the following would not have happened, certainly not in the three year
span; the football training center, the outdoor tennis complex, the softball
complex, and a track. Nor the planning for a basketball training center,
possible Huntsman Center renovation, or Rice Eccles expansion. Utah would never
have been able beat the number 5 ranked football team in SLC nor would we have
been able to schedule Michigan for a football game at Rice Eccles in '05.
In addition because of the academic prestige and emphasis of the PAC-12 the U
might not have gotten; the James L. Sorenson Molecular Biotechnology building,
the S.J. Quinney College of Law building, the school of dentistry, the business
school center, nor the Student Life Center. I am so grateful Utah
did not stay in the MWC!
Utah Trojan--"Im a lifelong USC Trojan fan living here in Utah.
It always drove me crazy listening to the Ute fans talk about how there program
was 1 of the best in the country. That they didnt get any respect. I still
remember when Utah joined the Pac12 my Ute fan buddies started already counting
the national championships and rose bowls. I told them to look at Wash St,
Oregon St, and Arizona, look at there history that is what Utah will be. Thats
not a bad thing but all Utah can do is hope for a magical season every once in a
while. There is no way they will complete year in and year out. Its just too
hard. FYI: Arizona in PAC- No Rose Bowls 1 shared title, OSU 3 Rose Bowls since
1941 last in 1965, and WSU 3 Rose Bowls since 1931. Its a joke to think you can
come right in and start winning. Nice to have Ute fans served some humble pie!
FIGHT ON SC!"Evidence supporting your claim regarding what
U-Fans allegedly proclaimed? I'm a U-Alumnus/-Fan & I NEVER once heard
such tripe, EVER!
Man, if only. Us Aggies would love nothing more than to have a shot against our
admittedly more bigger name brothers in conference play.
@ BlueHuskyTCU has 2 national titles.Also, with
BYU's schedule next year, 12-0 will not get the Cougs anywhere near the
@ ciokenooYou did. 0-2.@ RealBlueI hope that
you really don't believe that the new playoff system was designed to give
everyone a fair shot...
Is Utah glad they joined the PAC 12? Let's put it this way. Instead of
going to Rice-Eccles to endure a boring game vs. UNLV or New Mexico which means
absolutely nothing, even (especially) when the Utes win by 50 or so, we now have
6 incredibly good games at home as well as 6 tough games on the road. You build the program by playing tough quality opponents. Not feasting on the
likes of Idaho, Idaho State, Hawaii, and New Mexico State. BYU fans (I mean
byu "fans". Sorry, duckhunter.) should be outraged at their pathetic
schedule. But then, that's probably what many byu fans want: To go 10-2
against lower WAC-type competition in order to fool the east coast sportswriters
at the end of the year who look at their record and vote them #25. Pure fools
gold. I'll take the real gold any day.
Ole Ball coach...You are simply wrong... Perhaps you can show us
documentation to back up your claim that founding members of the MWC don't
want BYU back??? I can show you documentation that UNLV has been very interested
in having BYU return... In fact there is one article about a year ago that
claims that Colorado State and New Mexico wanted to form a new conference that
included AF and BYU... I can also show you the UNLV's AD publicly talking
about a hope that BYU would return and that article was about 8 months ago...Having said that I don't believe that the Leadership of BYU wants
to give up what they have created unless it would be a favorable move to a Power
Conference... It's easy to come on here and post opinions as
though they are facts... Maybe some readers don't check them out, I do. I
can back my statements up (in fact you can easily find these articles yourself
on the Net, but If you need help, I'll be happy to get you the URLs.
Duckhunter,"utah on the otherhand has no standards, or at least
very little in the way of standards. It shows us that all of the time and you
know what? That is fine, they have to conform to the lack of standards that a
secular institution must have."Secular schools, while not
religiously owned, certainly do have standards. Indeed there are some
religiously owned schools that are very secular. Utah has team rules and when
not followed players are disciplined or released from the team. Utah chooses
not to humiliate the player in public when that can be avoided. It is simply
called breaking team rules.The university itself has a code of
conduct that goes well beyond just following the law. A lot of that code
reflects the same rules and values as those at private schools.I
would also refer you to the Lowell Bennion Community Service Center at the U.
It is operated by the U and is student driven. It is not run by the LDS
Institute although they coordinate student service projects. This great service
center provides many volunteers and service work to the community and State at
@poymanole ball coach isn't interested in the facts, it is the
utah "fan" fantasy that absolutely NO ONE wants to be affiliated with
BYU in anyway. They have tried incredibly hard o convince themselves that no
conference could ever want them, in fact they want you to believe that ALL
conferences actively seek to exclude them, that no other schools would ever even
want to play BYU, in fact in the utah "fan" fantasy land all schools and
conferences are united in their disdain for BYU, all it stands for, the church
that sponsors it, the fans that follow it, the athletes that play for it, and
anyone that has even the slightest connection to it. Ironically enough those
fantasies are even shared by actually LDS that are utah "fans". Even
they share that level of hate for one of the most important institutions of the
faith they belong to. It is an absolutely fascinating thing to witness but I
don't have a real explanation for it. It is something they will one day
have to rectify in themselves.
Duckhunter,Duckhunter,"Ironically enough those fantasies
are even shared by actually LDS that are utah "fans". Even they share
that level of hate for one of the most important institutions of the faith they
belong to. "Really? I have been a lifelong active LDS church
member and I can honestly say that I have never met or known another active LDS
church member that while also a Utah fan, hated or despised BYU. And that
covers 60+ years.I believe your comments regarding the importance of
BYU to the church are over stated. It is a great school and I have a masters
degree from BYU. It is still a school. Most members of the church that live
outside the U.S. which now out number those within the U.S. don't pay any
attention to BYU.
@dutchmanUh....you obviously read the comments on these boards from
LDS utah "fans" with an extremely biased eye. Open them up and pay some
Duckhunter,"Uh....you obviously read the comments on these
boards from LDS utah "fans" with an extremely biased eye. Open them up
and pay some attention."I have but how do you know they are even
active LDS church members? Obviously people who have issues with the LDS church
are very likely to have issues with BYU. Again, I personally have never known
an active LDS church member who was also a Utah fan that carried any animosity