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LGBT leader promotes message of civility

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  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Jan. 21, 2014 8:05 p.m.

    Has there ever been civility in any society when gay acceptance, and behavior was around fifty percent of the population?

    It's never going to happen. It has always led to a downfall.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 21, 2014 8:36 p.m.

    @worf

    There are no examples of what you are asserting.

  • The Reader Layton, UT
    Jan. 21, 2014 8:50 p.m.

    The LGBT community will never be satisfied. They are not willing to allow businesses who do not want to provide services to them because their religious views do not agree with the LGBT communities views. IE - A florist or a baker that do not want to provide their services because they do not believe in the Gay lifestyle they sue and put them out of business. You can not expect tolerance of you do not have tolerance of the views of others!

    If you want me to accept the LGBT lifestyle - You have to accept my views that differ from yours. You can not expect others to let you live as you want if you can not accept others to have their views.

    You can not expect me to serve you in a florist shop for example if you can not accept the fact that your lifestyle is against my religious belief. I have the right too not believe in the LGBT lifestyle just as you have the right to not believe in my religious beliefs. To get respect you have to respect others point of view.

  • EDM Castle Valley, Utah
    Jan. 21, 2014 9:18 p.m.

    The Reader,

    I'm sorry that it's hard for you to imagine a day when commercial businesses will be "forced" to offer services to gay couples. But that day will be just like any other where we are "forced" to keep our business doors open to all minorities. It's just the name of the game. You can't own a business that is open to the public, but then randomly choose who you will serve. You might get away with "no shirt, no shoes, no service" but try getting away with "no Arabs", "no deaf people", "no left-handed people", or "no Mormons".

  • Schwa South Jordan, UT
    Jan. 21, 2014 9:22 p.m.

    Being against same-sex marriage is a sin. My God says those who oppose it are sinful. However, I love and respect all of humanity, and I will forgive them for their sins if they are willing to repent. I hate the sin, not the sinner.

  • The Reader Layton, UT
    Jan. 21, 2014 9:27 p.m.

    southmtnman

    A very large percentage of those who support traditional marriage and do not support gay and lesbian marriage do believe it is a sin.

    The Judeo/christian principles upon which the constitution was written do not support the gay and lesbian lifestyle. Those who wrote the constitution were largely practicing Christians. Christian churches at the time the Constitution was written did not look upon the gay lesbian lifestyle as sinless.

    That said we all need to be respectful of others beliefs. We need to be kind to each other. I am not trying to be hateful. I am just stating the facts and the history of the Christian religion.

    Perhaps over time we can all be more respectful of the right for all to have their individual beliefs.

    My beliefs will not likely change. But, I am not going to stand on the street corner and call the gay and lesbian community they are going to hell just as I will not to that to anyone whose behavior disagrees with my beliefs just as I expect the same of the gay and lesbian community.

    We can disaagree and still be respectful toward each other.

  • The Reader Layton, UT
    Jan. 21, 2014 9:35 p.m.

    EDM

    That is just the problem with the LGBT community. They want acceptance but do not want to let others have their views. They know that many in the Christian community believe the LGBT lifestyle is sinful and they want to force themselves and their vies upon others.

  • I know it. I Live it. I Love it. Provo, UT
    Jan. 21, 2014 9:51 p.m.

    Red Corvette,

    “We do not reject you. … We cannot reject you. … We will not reject you, because we love you.”
    -Boyd K Packer

    The problem with hatred is that those who dish it out will never acknowledge who's really doing the hating. Every word from President Packer has met my ears with love and kindness. Those who find hate where none exist are guilty of the only hate expressed (see 1 Nephi 16:2, it's a very simple verse and a simple principle).

  • Willem Los Angeles, CA
    Jan. 21, 2014 10:14 p.m.

    No matter what the church wants , equality for all Americans ,gay and straight will be the law of the land .

  • I know it. I Live it. I Love it. Provo, UT
    Jan. 21, 2014 10:15 p.m.

    southmtnman,

    I've been called by those terms and worse. I've even been equated to Hitler, even while expressing an opinion with no words of disrespect.

    Are there people from all backgrounds capable of showing disrespect? Yes. But what matters is how we encourage showing respect. Suggesting we "silence" Worf ultimately amounts to the same thing Worf described. What I find most interesting about the civility discussion is how much people are willing to butt their heads against each other. If we meet hateful remarks with hateful remarks, we fail. I'm not saying either of you were hateful, simply butting heads against each other on the same exact point.

    Instead, we ought to offer suggestion, respectful commentary, and principles. Peaceable discourse requires a reflection on matters in a peaceful way. Silencing people not only isn't practical, there is nothing peaceful or civil about it.

    I believe Worf's opinions are worth hearing and fair consideration. I also believe yours are.

  • county mom Monroe, UT
    Jan. 21, 2014 10:17 p.m.

    As a supporter of traditional marriage, between one man and one woman.

    And one who believes that civil unions should be given to all unrelated adult unions; such as man and woman, woman and woman, man and man, man and adult women, woman and adult men.

    I do not think that marriage should be any business of the government as long as there is no abuse and all are unrelated adults.

    Yet, when I express my beliefs and my moral values, I am always attacked. I personally believe that homosexuality is a sin, and this makes me a bigot.
    I have never been mean or even rude to anyone and would never tell anyone else how to live.
    We are all free to choose how we live and we should all be free to choose what we believe.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Jan. 21, 2014 10:23 p.m.

    Nothing to do with hatred, equality, or civil rights.

    Just can't be sympathetic, understanding, or supportive of the behavior between two gay people.

  • DN Subscriber Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 21, 2014 11:28 p.m.

    I hope this "LGBT leader" was addressing the "pro gay rights" folks who were using intimidation against opponents of the California initiative.

    Or, is this another case where certain protected classes get to do whatever they want to, while those in favor of traditional values can be vilified, bullied, and even assaulted, all in the name of non-violence?

  • El Chango Supremo Rexburg, ID
    Jan. 21, 2014 11:34 p.m.

    I applaud Kate Kendell for her call for civility. I also fear she's probably right about gay marriage being inevitable.

  • From Ted's Head Orem, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 12:36 a.m.

    My religious beliefs include the idea that homosexual intimacy of any kind is a sin...and I guess that makes me a bigot and a hater in some people's minds. Oh well. Perhaps we should ask the question "Can a bigot/hater be civil to those they are bigoted towards?"

    As far as refusing to serve clients based on their sexual orientation, generally I would think that isn't right. I believe there is still some wiggle room based on personal preferences, even when one is open for business from the general public. I would hope that a baker could still refuse to make a cake with wording or designs they personally found offensive, or a photographer refuse to take nude photos, for example. And we are not yet at a point where we are "gender blind" in our society as locker room attendants, bikini-waxers, and other occupations still have some gender constraints.

    I don't expect that we're all going to agree to treat others with civility. Yet we can try, and encourage others to do the same. The tide might not turn, but we'll be better people in the long run for the trying.

  • BYR West Bountiful, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 12:46 a.m.

    I am so weary of the labeling, the name calling. "You are mean." "You hate me." That does help me want to listen.

  • equal protection Cedar, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 2:27 a.m.

    "That is just the problem with the LGBT community. They want acceptance but do not want to let others have their views. They know that many in the Christian community believe the LGBT lifestyle is sinful and they want to force themselves and their vies upon others."
    We have difficulty knowing which moral view to codify into our civil laws. A sinful view or one supported by Episcopal, Unitarian, Reformed Judaism, Quaker, Buddhist and other deeply held religious views honor and perform same sex marriages because they are blessed with special access to moral truth for which other religions are not yet privy.

  • Funzi Italy, 00
    Jan. 22, 2014 3:09 a.m.

    I totally quote The Reader in every word he/she wrote! The real trouble behind this story is not rights or anything else, it's just that what the gay and lesbian community wants is to obtain more and more and leave less and less freedom. It's become impossible to make any kind of humour regarding homsexuals because it's banned as "homophobic", but nobody seems to be so annoyed when a theatrical show insults The Book of Mormon, LDS missionaries and the LDS faith. The LDS Church has been more than respectful towards EVERY ONE, but we don't seem to receive so much respect in return. The same with many christian confessions, who are victims of hate and disrespect everywhere in the world; from communists, muslims, gay lesbian communities and so on, christians have been mocked and disrespected many and more times and nobody moves a finger from the outside.

  • Gibster San Antonio, TX
    Jan. 22, 2014 3:42 a.m.

    @Worf

    Just put inter-racial in place of LBGT and see how it sounds.

  • lindaj72 salt lake city, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 4:28 a.m.

    I find it interesting that the very first comment was hateful on what I consider to be a very good article. So unnecessary. I keep hearing about how wrong people are in business to not want to bake a cake or (or whatever the business is) because of their beliefs. Many years ago at a law firm I worked for there was a surprise birthday party for an attorney in which not all were invited. It was held in a conference room. The cake brought in was a replica of a very well formed naked lady detailed in every way. Everyone laughed but I thought it offensive and demeaning. I have often wondered how that baker felt preparing that cake for that party. Just saying. There are different ways to look at things.

  • LovelyDeseret Gilbert, AZ
    Jan. 22, 2014 5:06 a.m.

    It seems like it is easier to demonize the other side than to debate honestly and openly.

  • Yorkshire City, Ut
    Jan. 22, 2014 6:18 a.m.

    Article: "She held those two realities effortlessly."

    I think believing that is a great dis-service to her mother, to consider it 'effortless'.

    Being an LDS woman, finding out her child was same-sex attracted, and now a Lesbian and an socially prominent Lesbian, this mother knew she, as a mother, was giving up a lot of LDS dreams she had held for this daughter.

    I applaud her, but to say what she went through, and still goes through, is 'effortless' cheapens and demeans this mother's experience.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 6:39 a.m.

    @worf;

    Puhleeze. LGBT couples getting married does absolutely NOTHING to lead to a "downfall of society". Failure to treat your fellow men decently on the other hand...

    @The Reader;

    What would you say and how would you react if every other business had a "No heterosexuals served here" sign posted?

    If my 'lifestyle' is against your religious beliefs, yet you continue to provide flowers to the Sabbath breakers, bake cakes for the adulterers and photograph the weddings of fornicators, then I say to you that you are using your "religious beliefs" as nothing more than a reason to discriminate against LGBT and that it isn't about your "religious beliefs" or you wouldn't serve those others breaking your "religious beliefs".

    Your view of "sin" applies to you and what others do isn't your business.

    @county mom;

    Would you tell Rosa Parks that the back of the bus arrived at the same time as the front?

    It isn't believing that homosexuality is a sin that makes a bigot, it's using those beliefs to discriminate against the homosexual.

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 7:18 a.m.

    We note that the "ACLU threatens Utah parents’ right to protect children from same-sex propaganda" in Farmington, Utah.

    From a news report: "The Alliance Defense Fund sent a letter Friday to the Davis School District in support of its policy that requires parental consent before children can check out a homosexual advocacy book titled “In Our Mothers’ House” from elementary school libraries. The American Civil Liberties Union contacted the district and demanded that it allow children to access the book without the knowledge of their parents.

    “Public schools should not surrender to ACLU intimidation when it asks them to expose children to sexual content without parental knowledge,” said ADF Legal Counsel Jeremy Tedesco. “Parents, not the ACLU, should decide whether young children have access to this type of propaganda, which is obviously aimed at re-educating children regarding the nature of the family. The law clearly upholds the right and duty of schools to protect children and respect the role of their parents.”

    Let parents of chidren in a civil way stand up for the community standards that are founded in sexual decency and protect our constitutional rights.

  • 1978 Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 7:21 a.m.

    "You can't own a business that is open to the public, but then randomly choose who you will serve."

    I agree. However but you can refuse to provide an individual a product that is against your deeply held religous beliefs.

    For example if an LDS member went into a bakery owned by Methodist and wanted a cake that was deocrated to emphasize something to do with LDS doctrine and the baker did not want to make it. I as an LDS member would agree with the baker.

  • Snapdragon Midlothian, VA
    Jan. 22, 2014 7:34 a.m.

    The conversation with this topic has become so toxic.

    Let's stop the mud slinging and start looking for a "win-win" solution.

  • EDM Castle Valley, Utah
    Jan. 22, 2014 7:50 a.m.

    The Reader @ 9:35pm

    The LGBT community wants equality, just like any other minority. But there can be no equality as long as religious views about homosexuality (it's a sin, it's abnormal) remain codified, as they are in Utah's Amendment 3.

    To use another example regarding businesses, I'm sure there is no shortage of racist business owners out there. But whatever their personal attitudes and beliefs are, it is illegal for them to treat racial minorities as inferior. I'm sure they don't like it - and it might even be against their reliigious beliefs - but the law protects racial minorities from being treated unfairly.

  • I know it. I Live it. I Love it. Provo, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 7:53 a.m.

    Gibster,

    Just put "murder" in place of "charity" in the law, and see how it reads.
    Just put "same-gender marriage" in place of "heterosexual marriage".

    We believe in equality. But that only applies to the same law and same principles. When you can throw whatever definition or word in at a whim, then you no longer have law but anarchy. Anything goes!

  • EstoPerpetua Holden, MA
    Jan. 22, 2014 8:46 a.m.

    This is not about, "others having their views", especially when these others have persecuted the LGBT for years. This is about equality and civil rights. As for some Mormons, they need to look back in history, back to "The Fall of '55" when 9 out of 10 gays were Mormons. I should know, I was brought up as a Mormon and saw many hypocrites growing up, and by the way, I am gay and was born that way.

  • windsor City, Ut
    Jan. 22, 2014 8:53 a.m.

    EDM said--"The LGBT community wants equality, just like any other minority. But there can be no equality as long as religious views about homosexuality (it's a sin, it's abnormal) remain codified, as they are in Utah's Amendment 3."

    Just curious if you feel that if it is no longer codified in an amendment or law, Or if everyone who says so is silenced into not saying it, will that change that it is somehow no longer sinful or abnormal?

  • Inis Magrath Fort Kent Mills, ME
    Jan. 22, 2014 9:10 a.m.

    Governor Herbert is quoted in the article as saying, "I recognize that this is a highly emotional issue with people of good will on both sides of the debate. I encourage everyone to remain respectful of one another and the legal process,"

    I disagree. There are not people of good will on both sides. The LGBT side doesn't want to force any person to live how they live. The LGBT side doesn't want to deny the civil right of marriage to anyone.

    By contrast, the anti-LGBT side DOES want to force LGBT people to live how they decree. Further, the anti-LGBT side wants to continue to deprive civil marriage rights to LGBT people.

    I believe those anti-LGBT positions are the very opposite of good will. They appear mean spirited. I won't call anyone a bigot or homophobic because I do not know what is in another person's heart. But whether the ill will towards LGBT people is intentional or merely a function of one's earnestly held religious beliefs, the effect on LGBT people feels well-imbued will ill will.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 9:40 a.m.

    @Meckofahess
    "Let parents of chidren in a civil way stand up for the community standards that are founded in sexual decency"

    While I have never read the book you noted, I'm going to guess there's not a single reference to sex anywhere in there.

    @worf
    Still waiting for an example of any civilization that collapsed due to support for same-sex relationships.

  • equal protection Cedar, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 10:40 a.m.

    @ Reader, your issue is not with the LGBT community it is with Public Accommodation law. You should also respect those who may not want to serve you in a restaurant, doctors office or grocery store because of a your religious belief.

  • equal protection Cedar, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 10:45 a.m.

    re: "Governor Herbert is quoted in the article as saying, "I recognize that this is a highly emotional issue with people of good will on both sides of the debate. I encourage everyone to remain respectful of one another and the legal process,"

    So Rosa Parks should have been glad to be allowed on the bus, let alone sit anywhere she wanted. Respect the views and good will of other passengers and/or those who believe you should use a different drinking fountain. Yup, makes a lot of common sense.

    Good will to all!

  • Baccus0902 Leesburg, VA
    Jan. 22, 2014 11:05 a.m.

    @
    Inis Magrath

    Fort Kent Mills, ME

    Very well stated. Thank you!!

  • Shazandra Bakersfield, CA
    Jan. 22, 2014 12:08 p.m.

    @Schnee- Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19), ancient Rome and Greece. Show us a society that has flourished while defiling the Biblical God, the Holy One of Israel's laws. Hittites, Amorites, Edomites, Sodomites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Tyre & Sidonites all gone. The Philistines, however, are still causing the same ruckus God said they would, (Gen. 16:12).

    @Ranch- Good point. But I can't deny services to the morally bankrupt, unfaithful spouses, sexually promiscuous, pedophiles or practitioners of bestiality in my over-regulated Big Brother state or nation. I am dominated and subjugated into the liberal Think-Like-Us-or-Leave enforcers.

    Even our own military is rife with rape and promiscuity that their leaders refuse to vilify or rectify. So all society suffers from rebellion and heathen practices. Adding another legalized abomination to Satan's arsenal won't solve man's unhappiness, but it does embolden the Deceiver. At least the Taliban got some things right.

  • Shazandra Bakersfield, CA
    Jan. 22, 2014 12:33 p.m.

    Thank you for a good article, Whitney. Anyone who has ever attended a Gay Pride parade or public debate on the issue knows exactly who the rude intoletant ones predominantly are. The Westboro Baptists are the exception.

    I would clarify that simply stating your objections to a particular practice, whether abortion, stem cell research, euthanasia or SSMarriage, does not constitute bigotry per se. Being against a practice does not mean you hate the practicioners. And legalizing en-utero murder is not softened or abrogated by renaming it "pro-choice". It is still the choice to murder a viable fetus/pre-human being. Period.

    The young woman here was trying to give helpful advice to the rowdy crowd in her group. Hope they listen. But nice or rude will never change God's Word for Biblical adherents. It just keeps the discussion on a civil level so all opinions can be heard.

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 12:43 p.m.

    TheReader: "The LGBT community will never be satisfied."

    Part of the problem in keeping things civil in a discussion is making broad generalizations. The LGBT community is 3-10% of the population. It includes a broad range of people. It has more variety than the Village People. Any population that includes Log Cabin Republicans and Radical Fairies cannot be said to speak with a single voice or have a single, homogeneous identity. There is no Gay Agenda. There are 10-20 million gay agendas (although many of them will overlap). In any population this size there are bound to be jerks just as there are bound to be some really nice people. The same applies to marriage traditionalists, Mormons, evangelicals, florists, bakers, etc. The nice people really don't have a lot of control over the jerks, except we can call them out when they misbehave. And we can try to be more precise in our language, saying "some in the LGBT community will never be satisfied" instead of making a sweeping blanket statement. I know adding qualifiers cuts into the 200 word limit, but it keeps the discussion accurate and, well, more civil.

  • Vic Steblin Prince Geoprge, BC, Canada, 00
    Jan. 22, 2014 1:27 p.m.

    I became tolerant and respectful when I realized that humans are creative and made up all this stuff in the first place. Languages, marriage customs, novels, holy books, music, religions, Santa, God, even thousands of Christian denominations; all made up.

  • Schwa South Jordan, UT
    Jan. 22, 2014 1:50 p.m.

    I get really annoyed when the Christian-right tries to claim that they are the ones being victimized in this discussion. The LGBT community isn't the one trying to make your lifestyle against the law.

  • Shazandra Bakersfield, CA
    Jan. 22, 2014 2:23 p.m.

    Great points, Vic in BC. Did you know that evolution, the Big Bang, Climate Warming and Prince Geoprge are also all made up?

    FYI: Hittites, Sodomites, Edomites, et al, were real civilizations in ancient Mesopotamia and vicinity. Secular Israeli archeologists still use the Bible for current excavations. Now they haven't located the Passover Bunny, but they did find the full Hittite civilization in the early '80's, much to the chagrin of the atheist naysayers, who insisted that no such entity existed: Right where they were supposed to be, under layers of previous civilizations... Exactly as the Biblical prophets prophesied their total extinction.

    The scattered tribal Hebrews? Well they returned to their land just as promised: The only ancient, Biblical nation to totally resurrect their nation and original language to modern times and usage. The Prophet Ezekiel could order a sandwich at a Tel Aviv deli today. Their current enemies? The same tribal animosity from 4,000 years ago, of recorded/verified history.

    I am having a tough time locating Prince Geoprge though...

  • Vic Steblin Prince Geoprge, BC, Canada, 00
    Jan. 22, 2014 3:21 p.m.

    For Shazandra, many things are not made up by humans. Math, science and nature, for example, seems to be mostly discovered. In general the two major sections of libraries are a decent start to try to sort things out, fiction and non-fiction. Then everyone has their opinion where religion, philosophy and the meta-stuff belongs. Then there are things like dreams and prophecies, part of our existence, yet strangely not there, or are they, as bits of electrical disturbances. Those "goldilocks" planets are also probably really there, no matter what the ancient writings said. I also follow the BAR and am amused. Watch any decent historical account or read any book of the Bible to realize human creativity and influence.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Jan. 22, 2014 6:14 p.m.

    Ranch:

    Do some homework.

    Look at the poor African nations as a start.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Jan. 23, 2014 7:13 a.m.

    @ Windsor

    "Just curious if you feel that if it is no longer codified in an amendment or law, Or if everyone who says so is silenced into not saying it, will that change that it is somehow no longer sinful or abnormal?"

    Your opinion that SSM is sinful or abnormal may not change, nor does it need to. Your opinion is simply not relevant to the issue. You're confusing your religious doctrine with civil law.

  • peterblaise Falls Church, VA
    Jan. 23, 2014 10:15 p.m.

    @Meckofahess,

    You must know that there is a history of previous generation's parent's lack of acceptance of their own children's differences in any way, especially their children's sexual identity.

    You must know those parents are often violent towards their own children, beating them, throwing them out of their homes, into the street to survive, under age, on their own.

    You must know those children -- children -- are then often both severely suicidal, and or severely abused by the experience of trying to survive on their own, under age, in the underground of society.

    To force those children -- children -- to be confronted by their parents before they are "allowed" to explore a supportive book is cruel and insensitive to all children.

    Remember, a "straight" child can't be hurt reading such a book, learning that there are a variety of ways of being, and a gay child will find comfort knowing at last that they are not alone -- how beautiful for both children!

  • The Scientist Provo, UT
    Jan. 24, 2014 9:20 a.m.

    The twisting and contorting of logic from the radical religionists is quite astounding!

    If a man and a woman want to marry, what business is it of yours? Do they need your approval and acceptance?

    No.

    If you don't think they are a good match (perhaps because they are of different religious faiths), do they need your permission to marry?

    No.

    So why if a same sex couple wants to marry is it any of your business?

    But then when that couple wants to marry and cannot because a mob has made it illegal, and so they go to the US Constitution and the Courts for relief from this discrimination, all the religious radicals get upset and play the victim card?

    This is like Alice in Wonderland! How contorted and absurd can the reasoning of the religionists get before even they start to realize it?

    History will not look pleasingly on the religious for what they are doing and the absurdities they are expressing today. It is downright shameful.

  • charlyk salt lake city, UT
    Jan. 29, 2014 12:49 p.m.

    @The Reader
    You want to own a florist shop and the right to refuse service to those who are homosexual? In the 50's and 60's we desegregated because of attitudes like that. "I have no problem with black people I just don't them in my shop." It was determined that is not okay and a personal disagreement with with a lifestyle is not a good reason not to offer them services. If we no longer segregate the races, why would you think it is okay to segregate the sexualities?

    For anyone who doesn't believe that gay marriage is a national inevitability, I put forth to you--Utah was in the top 20 states who approved it. One of the most (if not the most) conservative state in the nation. It will happen.