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My view: Pope Francis not Marxist

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  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 12:31 a.m.

    Is Pope Francis a Marxist? With all due respect to the writer, that depends upon what we mean by the term. I consider myself to be a Marxist because Marx IMHO developed a theory of capital accumulation and exploitation of labor that is pretty close to right. Pope Francis is I'm sure familiar with Marx in that regard. I dare say he appreciates Marx's contribution to economics. So Pope Francis may well be a Marxist in these terms, but it does not mean the Pope admires tyrannical states which call themselves "Marxist." I've read some of the turgid output of the "Institutes of Marxist Leninism" in the Soviet Union, and they barely knew who Marx was. By my criteria they were not "Marxists."

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Jan. 14, 2014 5:56 a.m.

    That's not what Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity tells the Ditto-heads...

    ======

    BTW -- God Bless Pope Francis!

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Jan. 14, 2014 8:47 a.m.

    I don't know if the Pope is a Marxist or not; "To each according to their needs and from each according to their abilities". But I do know that Marxism has never succeeded in history, because
    it is always necessary to enforced with tanks and machine guns. Why? Because people will not be forced work for that which they will not receive. Because only slaves are forced to work for
    things they will not receive. Marxism is slavery and people will be free!

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 8:56 a.m.

    I think the pope is more of a true doctrinal christian, and that's making a lot of people uncomfortable.

  • Mark B Eureka, CA
    Jan. 14, 2014 9:25 a.m.

    Marxists are all supposed to be atheists. Wouldn't that little fact be hard for a Catholic priest to cover up - for most of a lifetime?

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Jan. 14, 2014 9:43 a.m.

    Mountanman
    Hayden, ID
    I don't know if the Pope is a Marxist or not; "To each according to their needs and from each according to their abilities". But I do know that Marxism has never succeeded in history, because...

    8:47 a.m. Jan. 14, 2014

    ===========

    Guys like you crack me up.

    You hate it,
    yet - you are the very one's who support it and make it WORK!

    Communist China would still be a 3rd world rice patty culture had it not for our Capitalist friends on Wall Street, and the Corporate Welfare Queens who play our politicians like fiddles.

    FYI - Marxism works all the time,
    It's called "The Family".

    As for Societies;
    it has worked at least 4 times:

    1. the City of Enoch,
    2. Moses and the Children of Israel,
    3. Christians at the time of Jesus,
    4. Nephites/Lamanties at the time of Jesus,

    and
    it will work in the New Jersualem, the City of Zion.
    "To each according to their needs and from each according to their abilities".

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 9:54 a.m.

    Just because you love for your neighbor, and help carry each other's burdens... doesn't make you a Marxist.

    A lot of people who aren't Marxist do that (on their own, not by government mandate). It's just fulfilling the law of Christ.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Jan. 14, 2014 10:28 a.m.

    @ airnuat. What you don't get is the term FORCE! Families, church and charitable cooperation are not forced, it's voluntary. Force was and is a principle of the evil one! As anyone who ever cracked a history book knows, Marxism always exists only by force! Wise up!

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 10:40 a.m.

    To me the Pope sounds more like Harry Truman than Karl Marx.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 10:42 a.m.

    These discussions are difficult because most do not know much about Marx. They know he wrote the Communist Manifesto - and that is about it. They know nothing about his contributions to economics. Marx was concerned, as were many others, with labor's status in the new commercial systems. That was the impetus for his contributions. He was not a Russian. He was long dead before any countries "went Communist." He was knowledgeable in virtually all economic thought extant in his day - including those he admired most - Adam Smith and David Ricardo. Marx is a legitimate descendant of both of them.

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    Jan. 14, 2014 11:27 a.m.

    Re. airnaut
    Everett, 00
    You missed one very important principle difference between charity, families, City of Enoch, Christianity, Church and Marxism: FORCE. Force is an evil principle proposed, employed and implemented by Satan and others throughout history by Marxist/communist governments who force some to work for nothing so others can receive what they didn't earn, by force! That's the difference! The very definition of slavery is forcing someone to work for that which they will not receive so others can receive what they did not work for and earn! Free agency versus being forced, unable to choose for yourself! I guess the war in heaven isn't over, is it?

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Jan. 14, 2014 12:22 p.m.

    Pope Francis is a disciple of Christ.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 12:28 p.m.

    Open Minded,
    Re: "That's not what Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity tells the Ditto-heads"...

    If you could embrace this reality (vs the fog of partisanship stereotypes)... just because Rush or Beck or anybody on the TV says something... don't just assume that everybody you lump in with them also thinks that way.

    Many Conservatives don't believe everything Beck or Limbaugh say. And I know at least Beck highly discourages his audience from just believing what he says on the air, and encourages them to do their own research and form their own opinions.

    You may want to try that too (instead of just regurgitating the talking points and what you hear on MSNBC about evil Rush listeners, or Beck listeners, etc). We are really not all bad.

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    Jan. 14, 2014 12:40 p.m.

    One more historical fact. Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Mao ste Tung and Ho Chi Minh were all Marxists with a military to enforce it!

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Jan. 14, 2014 1:08 p.m.

    To "airnaut" wow, you too. Are you LDS Liberal too?

    Families are not "marxist" that is proven by the simple fact that what you earn cannot be freely spent by your 5 year old. Plus, you and your spouse own your house, not you and your kids.

    As for your societies, those were not marxist, socialist, or communist. They were (gasp) capitalist. According to modern revelation, for a society to be free it must give allowance for property rights and private ownership. Those are 2 of the biggest reasons why we know that communal philosophies are NOT in accordance with God's laws. Not to mention that all of the collectivist philosophies rely on force to redistribute the wealth.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Jan. 14, 2014 1:21 p.m.

    Well,
    I guess if you read the Bible, and see that Jesus taught Marxism -
    Then, Yes - I suppose Pope Francis is a Marxist.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Jan. 14, 2014 1:38 p.m.

    "Many Conservatives don't believe everything Beck or Limbaugh say"

    Ok 2bits. Question. Did congress exempt itself from Obamacare?

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 1:49 p.m.

    @ Thid Barker - "One more historical fact. Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Mao ste Tung and Ho Chi Minh were all Marxists with a military to enforce it!" But the social democrats of the European democracies also read Marx - and they're reasonably OK, aren't they?

    Back to the 4 cited: Mao and Ho Chi Minh were also fighting nationalist struggles against the imperialist British (the world's first narco-state) and the imperialist French. Their militarism was in large part dictated by those struggles. As for the demonic Stalin, his installation was spirited by the U.S. invasion of Russia following WW I (yes, it's true).

    I repeat: the conservatives here have never read Marx, nor know anything about him.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 2:36 p.m.

    marxist,
    RE : "But the social democrats of the European democracies also read Marx - and they're reasonably OK, aren't they"?

    Define "Reasonably OK".

    ===

    Re: "I repeat: the conservatives here have never read Marx, nor know anything about him"...

    How do you know Conservatives have never read Marx?

    I'm Conservative to the bone... and I have read Das Kapital, and The Communist Manifesto, and many commentaries and critiques on his writings and theories.

    My grandparents were born and raised in East Germany (moving to the US in the early 1950s). What I know about it I learned at their knee telling me their stories and their first hand views on the subject (not just books).

    My son said my studying Marx with him and discussing History at length with him is what lead him to get his Master's Degree in History.

    Many Conservatives have read Marx (this may surprise you). They just don't agree that it works (mainly from observing history).

    Karl Marx had many good and lofty ideals... but they just don't work in an imperfect system and imperfect people (which we are). History proves I'm right.

  • Unreconstructed Reb Chantilly, VA
    Jan. 14, 2014 2:49 p.m.

    "Pope Francis is a disciple of Christ."

    Bingo. Anyone's free to put him into whatever ideological box one wishes (marxist, whatever). This is the only one that matters.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Jan. 14, 2014 4:03 p.m.

    To "marxist" since you are the self proclaimed resident expert on Marxism. Tell us where it has ever worked? What nation has practiced what he taught, and has the same standard of living, innovation, and success as the US or other countries that practice capitalism?

    I looked up to see what nations claim Marxism, and they are 3rd world nations, nations that have collapsed, or have adopted capitalism to boost their economies.

    I just don't see where Marxism works. Maybe you can enlighten us.

  • Fan Base Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 4:47 p.m.

    "Pope Francis exhorts politicians to guarantee dignified work, education and health care for the least among us..."

    That sounds marxist.

    He's not asking for people to hire, educate and care for the least among us. That's what Jesus would probably say.

    The Pope is asking politicians to guarantee it. Politicians guarantee stuff by forcing us to do it for them. Then they get to decide whether we're doing it right and then reward or punish those who do what they want.

    Haven't we seen this movie already?

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Jan. 14, 2014 5:49 p.m.

    Marx did not believe the communal society would happen by force but by natural evolution. A pure Marxist doesn't force anything on anyone. Totalitarians have distorted Marxism, just as they have distorted capitalism (Hitler, Caesar, Mussolini, etc.)

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Jan. 14, 2014 8:28 p.m.

    "Force was and is a principle of the evil one!"

    I love it when democratically elected people pass a law, and all of a sudden it is "forced". Heaven forbid we force people to do good. Forcing should be left to things like what age your drink, sending your kids to school, those dang zoning laws that force you to keep you property in alignment with "local standards". All this government forcing..... in needs to be left to making my neighbor live how I think they should.... not make society to take care of its poor and disadvantaged.

    If it is spending on things like defense = unforced. Spending on giving corporations incentives to do business in your area even if it doesn't benefit you directly - unforced. Helping feed the poor - forced.

    Love it.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 11:44 p.m.

    @2 bits "Many Conservatives have read Marx (this may surprise you). They just don't agree that it works." That what works? "Capital" is a critique of capitalism, it's not a blueprint. My reading of Marx is not exhaustive let me admit, but what I have read leads me to believe that he was mostly a theoretician, like Smith, Ricardo, or Marshall, and that he didn't push any scheme of government.

    Anti-capitalist systems call themselves Marxist because Marx was and is the major critic of capitalism, not because they follow a Marxist prescription, because there isn't one.

    A more to the point response on your part might be "we've read Marx and we find his explanation of capital accumulation under capitalism useless and his theories lend no predictability to capitalist development." I would disagree with that of course. My only request is that Marx be admitted to the company of neoclassical economists (like advocated by the late great Joan Robinson of Cambridge). I believe his analysis can be enormously useful as we evolve our system. I have no precise prescription for what ails us. We will develop that together.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Jan. 15, 2014 7:52 a.m.

    To "marxist" tell us where Marxism works? You think it is so great, and so wonderful, and there are quite a few nations that feel the same way you do.

    The problem is that I don't see anywhere that it has worked. The nations that practice Marxism fall are 3rd world nations, collapsed nations, or else have adopted capitalism to fund their collectivist policies. No matter how you look at it, it has not worked.

    However, I am interested in your point of view. Tell us, where has marxism worked?

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Jan. 15, 2014 8:54 a.m.

    Re:ThidBaker
    "unable to choose for yourself!"

    "First, because free agency is a God-given precondition to the purpose of mortal life, no person or organization can take away our free agency in mortality.

    Second, what can be taken away or reduced by the conditions of mortality is our freedom, the power to act upon our choices. Free agency is absolute, but in the circumstances of mortality freedom is always qualified.

    A loss of freedom reduces the extent to which we can act upon our choices, but it does not deprive us of our God-given free agency.

    We have to accept some government limitations on freedom if we who live in communities are to have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. A condition of uninhibited individual freedom would allow the strong to oppress the weak. It would allow the eccentric desires of one person to restrict the freedom of many.

    Interferences with our freedom do not deprive us of our free agency. When Pharaoh put Joseph in prison, he restricted Joseph’s freedom, but he did not take away his free agency."

    (Dallin H. Oaks, "Free Agency and Freedom")

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 11:34 a.m.

    marxist,
    Since you don't seem to have an answer to the question, "Where has Marxism worked and brought prosperity to it's people"... I can give you dozens of examples where Capitalism has worked. I can give you dozens of recent examples were Capitalism brought peace and prosperity to it's people. Do you want them?

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Jan. 16, 2014 12:43 p.m.

    2bits
    Where has Marxism worked? Check out 4 Nephi and book of Moses chapters and 8.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Jan. 16, 2014 1:44 p.m.

    To "Irony Guy" that wasn't marxism. That was charity.

    Marxism is forced redistribution at the hands of government. Charity is giving what you can to those that need.

    If you are LDS, look up to see what various Prophets and Apostles have said regarding collectivism and the United Order. They are not the same.