Quantcast
Sports

Utah basketball: Utes blow opportunity to win rare Pac-12 road game, fall by 3 at Washington State

Comments

Return To Article
  • Utah Teacher Orem, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 7:18 p.m.

    Ouch. Losing to the team that only scored 25 points one game this season? And named the Cougars no less? This has to be the low point for the utes. I thought maybe they had a chance to make some noise in the Pac but I guess it is not going to happen. Tough time to be a utah fan right now.

  • kitsutsuki South Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 12, 2014 7:23 p.m.

    ANOTHER loss directly attributable to the weak schedule Utah played in the pre-season! This team is woefully prepared to play on the road.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 7:23 p.m.

    Well that was the first bad loss of the year... and it took them something like 16 games to get one of those so that's good. The team isn't going to go to even the NIT at this rate but should still finish out better than last year and with a solid recruiting class for next year so you know... could be worse.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 7:25 p.m.

    Disapointing. Utah Teacher, It is a low point. What do we do now? Hire the coach from Wyoming? geeze. Bring on the detractors celebration.

  • CougarSunDevil Phoenix, AZ
    Jan. 12, 2014 7:29 p.m.

    Washington beat Colorado today. Utah's loss got upgraded from a bad loss to a moral victory!

  • poyman Lincoln City, OR
    Jan. 12, 2014 7:37 p.m.

    Once again the mighty utes nearly pull off the upset on the road against perennial Basketball Giant WSU... Instead they were able to keep their perfect road streak in-tact and will more than likely finish the season a perfect 0-10...

    This brings full legitimacy to the RPI rating system and explains why Utah continues to remain where they are in the pac12 rankings...

    You just never know what is going to happen each week in the big bad pac12... Well wait, I guess that's not true... We know that if the utes are on the road you can bet the house on a guaranteed "L"... lol. Looks like one more year of watching March Madness from the comforts of their own slc homes.

    But look at the positives, the Defense was great... They held the Cougs to only twice as many as Arizona did...

    As my friend the WSU Alumni tells me several times a year, they are absolutely delighted to have the utes in their Conference... Without them they would not have been able to go "Bowling" this year in Football... And without them they would have a sub .500 Basketball Season going right now.

  • ImaUteFan West Jordan, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 7:40 p.m.

    FAIL.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 7:41 p.m.

    It's tough to win in the prestigious PAC 12.

    I love the way this program is headed with coach K

    Tough loss but the future is bright for the PAC 12 utes.

    Onward an upward

  • kitsutsuki South Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 12, 2014 7:46 p.m.

    alt134 calls it the first bad loss of the year??? What about the 10 bad wins - you know against the likes of Savannah State et al, teams that barely reach the junior college level? I stand by my assertion that Coach k and the administration sealed this team's fate with the pathetic preseason they played.

  • mfranks North Bend, WA
    Jan. 12, 2014 7:49 p.m.

    Chris B., I have come to believe that you must be a secret BYU fan - posing as a "Troll"! Your comments are beyond any sense of reason!

  • thebigsamoan Richmond, VA
    Jan. 12, 2014 7:52 p.m.

    Sorry to see the Utes lost a sure chance to secure a win over a winnable opponent. I'm sure they're as disappointed as we were when they beat our Cougars. Stanford that lost to BYU beat Oregon and California beat Colorado. That does not bode well for the Utes' chances as their conference is also vastly improved in b/b too this year. I'm not sure how long their fans can sing the praises of their being in a prestigious conference if they can't compete and prove they belong. Belonging is one thing, being competitive is quite another.

    Good luck Utes!

  • UteTrog Phoenix, AZ
    Jan. 12, 2014 8:00 p.m.

    We're going nowhere this year. Lucky if we get an NIT bid.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 8:16 p.m.

    I really thought the Cougars would beat the Utes this year. I just didn't realise it would be a loss to these Cougars.

    Was really hoping for a Ute win today. These 2 and 3 point losses are extra tough. BYU has had a few of those too.

    I was somewhat worried about how the Utes would do on the road after they had almost all home games in their pre-conference play. Not a great way to fully prepare. But there is still time to start winning again and have a decent season.

    Is there such a thing as the PAC12... or is it always the "prestigious" PAC12?
    I'd rather hear about the prestigious Utes... after they finish earning the description.

  • poyman Lincoln City, OR
    Jan. 12, 2014 8:19 p.m.

    Honorable Mr. Jeffereson...

    With all due respect to a former President who could care less about the big bad pac12 today... How do you come up with 17 wins?...

    The utes have 12 wins today (if we count all of the pre-season community college and HS victories at the HC)... They have already played 2 of their 11 home conference games leaving 9 yet to play. It is completely improbable that Utah will win a conference game on the road... So which 5 home games are they going to win at home to reach 17 wins on the year? UCLA, Cal, Colorado, and Arizona are definite losses in my book (I'd even add Stanford after seeing them beat Oregon today in Eugene)... Leaving only four "maybe" victories against UW,WSU,USC, and ASU at the HC...

    That would give the utes 16 wins against 17 losses...

    Even if you gave them 17 or 18 wins (which I think is highly unlikely they would still have 16 or 15 losses... That doesn't get them into any post season tourneys outside of the obligatory pac12 tournament... This all translates into cleaning out their lockers by the ides of March.

  • rogerdpack Orem, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 8:26 p.m.

    Not related to the game, but...suddenly it seems like the Utes are playing Sunday games like all the time...it just...surprises me somehow...not that it's good or bad, just...surprising.

  • Kralon HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA
    Jan. 12, 2014 8:29 p.m.

    Washington State played really good defense keeping the Utes to 29% from the field and that looks like the biggest difference in the stats (WSU was 37% from the field).

    I'm glad the Utes are improved over prior years, but it is tough to lose so many close games, especially games like this one where the Utes lead almost the entire game.

  • pocyUte Pocatello, ID
    Jan. 12, 2014 8:34 p.m.

    This loss is like a kick to the gut. Oddly enough, I'm sure it's more so for the players and coaches than me, but it still is a drag.

    Again, a winnable game, again, poor execution down the stretch.

    I am still encouraged by the team, and love the direction they are going, but they are young. That being said, I hope they turn the corner soon.

    Let's go get USC.

    Go UTES!!!

  • Down under Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 8:35 p.m.

    Like I told Chris B, beating WSU would be an upset. I agree with all the posts since the season started that the coach and AD made a terrible decision to schedule all of those weak teams on the hill. Not playing road games is now taking its toll. The utes are done for this year if they cannot beat a winless conference bottom feeder and then to only score 46 points, WOW. But hey the utes are in the pac so that is all that matters.

  • Ute buster Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 8:41 p.m.

    So let's see who the best player in the state is: Haws scores two games over 30 points in a row and two wins in a row, Wright nets 14 points in a loss to the previous worst team in the conference. Do we even need to think about this for more than a nano second?
    BYU may have lost to the utes on the hill but they are clearly the best team in the state right now with several of the best players,and by several I mean more than two.

  • The Anti Chris Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 8:44 p.m.

    CB, Surely you jest. The immediate future does not look bright, but through your crimson colored glasses I can see how you would think that all is well because the utes are in the pac. Utah cannot win on the road again this year. I see a multi-year trend going here. WSU thanks you for joining the pac and replacing them at the bottom in basketball too.

  • Tom in CA Vallejo, CA
    Jan. 12, 2014 9:14 p.m.

    When I tuned in I thought it was Northwest Nazarene women's basketball. About a thousand fans in the big gym. First time I've watched a men's game where there were less fans than at a women's game.

    7 minutes into the game utah had 2 points. 22 points in the second half. All against the then worst team in the league. I still like the direction this team is going in.

  • StGtoSLC SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 9:30 p.m.

    Ugly, frustrating game. Team's gonna be fighting for any postseason games now.

  • Ricardo Carvalho Provo, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 9:33 p.m.

    I am happy to see the Utes playing better to the point that these close losses hurt rather than being the expectation. The program is headed in the right direction despite these disappointments.

  • uteBusters Park City, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 9:36 p.m.

    Projected RPI tomorrow:

    #36 BYU (2nd in the WCC, 5th in the PAC)
    #166 Utah (9th of 10 in the WCC, 12th in the PAC)

    Utah's PAC 12 road record falls to 1-19.

    Time for CB to slap another PAC 12 sticker on something.

  • gdog3finally West Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 12, 2014 9:46 p.m.

    Man, all the conference losses have been down to the wire one possession outcomes. The Utes will need to figure out a way to mature and win these games in about 7 weeks in order to make a run in the conference tournament.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 10:00 p.m.

    poyman
    Give it a rest, poyman. You haven't given byu's schedule so much thought and analysis. Your cougs are playing in high school gymnasiums in a pathetic conference that doesn't merit a second thought. You don't like the situation they are in? Fine, do something to change it. Bagging on a resurgent Utah team will not help byu. You want to lay the blame at someone's feet? See Holmoe.

    On Topic...this loss has got to be heart wrenching for the Utes. They had struggled since their near upset of Oregon. Coach K has seen this kind of a slump before and knows how to deal with it. Time to support our team to some quality wins.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 12, 2014 10:04 p.m.

    Choke! Up 12 points and leading most of the game and we still found a way to lose? This is a huge step backwards for this team, it's a really bad loss.

    Loveridge is shooting 34% (17-50) in PAC-12 play. Utah will continue to lose until he steps up.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Jan. 12, 2014 10:10 p.m.

    How sad.

    In the PAC 12, are there any sport the utes could compete?

    The utes would struggle in the WCC also.

    No doubt, the Big Sky Conference would be a better fit.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 10:13 p.m.

    @gdog

    Moral victories.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Jan. 12, 2014 10:25 p.m.

    I actually feel, the schedule of weak teams was a help. Winning is a cure, and the utes are in fact playing tougher than a year ago.

  • The Anti Chris Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 10:39 p.m.

    CB,
    The other 11 teams in the pac would not agree that it is tough to win in the pac. That's what the utes are for, guaranteed wins. That is their role in football and basketball.

  • Christy B Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 12, 2014 10:39 p.m.

    "The Utes will need to figure out a way to mature and win these games in about 7 weeks in order to make a run in the conference tournament."

    Let's not kid ourselves. A team that can't beat lowly Washington St has absolutely no chance of making a run in the conference tournament.

    This is what we deserve for playing such a weak non-conference schedule with only one road game in the first two months of the season.

  • But seriously folks! Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 12, 2014 10:46 p.m.

    So is this a moral victory? If so the utes are perfect for the year. They will be the #1 seed in the moral victory tourney, but unfortunately they are the only school that counts them. We will just give them the trophy now and not worry about the rest of the season.SO CB, how the pac membership working out for ya?

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 12, 2014 10:49 p.m.

    @Ute buster

    So let's see who the best player in the state is: Haws scores two games over 30 points in a row and two wins in a row, Wright nets 14 points in a loss to the previous worst team in the conference. Do we even need to think about this for more than a nano second?

    ------------

    Wright had 14 points, which is 3 more points then what Haws had at Loyola Marymount, the worst team in the WCC.

    Haws at LM: 11 points (4-15 26%), 6 rebounds, 5 turnovers, 1 asset
    Wright at WSU: 14 points (4-8 50%), 7 rebounds, 3 assets, 2 steals, 3 TOs

    The 9 point win was the biggest win for Loyla Marymont over a D1 team, the other was a 3 point win at home against San Diego.

    WSU is bad and the loss was set back, but getting OWNED at Loyola Marymont is even worse.

    Our problem isn't Wright, our problem is with Loveridge and Taylor. Both are playing like Matt Carlino.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 12, 2014 10:52 p.m.

    @Tom in CA

    7 minutes into the game utah had 2 points. 22 points in the second half. All against the then worst team in the league. I still like the direction this team is going in.

    ---------

    Which is still better than what BYU did at Loyola Marymount, the worst team in the WCC. A game where BYU was throughly dominated, a game which was over in the first 4 minutes.

  • Cougar Blue 1 Henderson , NV
    Jan. 12, 2014 11:28 p.m.

    The Utes just need a co-co-co head coach. "Coach K" as you call him just is not getting it done in the "prestigious PAC 12". Better luck next year, and the year after that, and the year after that, and..... This what happens when you play an extremely weak schedule. You build false hope, only to be brought back to reality.

  • Cletus from Coalville Coalville, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 6:21 a.m.

    Looking forward to a great season with the best postseason hopes of any team in the state.

    Go Utes!

  • Mr. Caveman Omaha, NE
    Jan. 13, 2014 6:37 a.m.

    46 points and 29% shooting....all vs the worst team in the conference. The basement is so comfortable...we've been there a long time. It's now carpeted and fully furnished because we aren't leaving. I LOVE my PAC-12 membership!!!

  • bribri86 Phoenix, AZ
    Jan. 13, 2014 7:58 a.m.

    To all the Ute defenders...

    "I'm a Ute fan through and through, I'll defend my team loudly
    I'll say some of the most irrational things, because I wear my pain to proudly!"

    Even the most objective sports analysis would say that the Utes are not anything this year. Their schedule is over inflated with bad teams, with only one quality win against their hype game. Just like football, Utah can get it up for BYU, but no one else.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 8:02 a.m.

    Utes need to lock themselves in the gym and shoot the ball until Loveridge and Taylor get out of their slump. The talent is there, the execution is not. There are no moral victories, but I still think by season's end this team will be an overall improvement over last year. I didn't expect a turnaround overnight. I believe in Coach K. (and yes, I will continue to call him Coach K.).

    BYU beat Loyola Marymount, Pepperdine, and San Diego. I LOVE my WCC membership!!!

    I remember when Majerus always scheduled 2-3 nonconference games every year against the WCC. It was a good SoCal recruiting trip and an automatic W playing in those high school gyms.

    When Cougar fans throw out computer rankings to prove how good they are playing in that lowly conference, it shows just how far backward BYU sports have regressed and how truly irrelevant they have become.

  • Ed Grady Idaho Falls, ID
    Jan. 13, 2014 8:21 a.m.

    Awww shucks, I was really hoping the Utes would win a game outside the 801 area code.

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 8:38 a.m.

    @ poyman at least we are not losing to WCC teams on the road. Just think your byu team would have a losing record if it was not for your schedule in the WCC. Face it you left the MWC because your AD knew you would not be able to compete against the better competition. Your program joined a one bid conference where you are having a hard time competing on the road. byu cant recruit the type of athletes needed to compete and that is why you will never get past the Sweet 16 in the big dance.
    Utah is a very young team they start 4 Sophmores and 1 junior JC transfer they are still learning to play together and are just 1 shooter away from having a really good team. Utah can play defense which has kept them in a lot of games. Also Washington St gave Colorado all they could handle in their overtime win. I am not worried about the Utah program. Because unlike byu Utah can actually recruit talent which has shown not only in our play. But also in winning the inState battle for the best basketball talent two years in a row.

  • CougarSunDevil Phoenix, AZ
    Jan. 13, 2014 8:43 a.m.

    Why do ute fans frequently comment about WCC high school gyms? WCC schools fill their gyms. If all the attendees at the Ute games were to go into the WCC gyms, they couldn't fill them. Ute's frequent comments about the size of gyms makes me wonder if Utah needs to be in bigger gyms to compensate for their pathetic basketball play among other reasons.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Jan. 13, 2014 8:44 a.m.

    Hard to watch the Utes on the road. What a pathetic showing against a WSU team who didn't even have there best player available. 29.5% from the field just isn't going to get it done. Sad, very sad indeed!

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 8:44 a.m.

    @kitsutsuki you forgot the bad win against byu. Probably the worst win for Utah since byu cant win on the road in the WCC

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 8:50 a.m.

    None of our teams are tearing it up, so we're down to knocking each other and enjoying each other's struggles. Sad. Coach K, Rose and Morril, what happened?!

  • Tom in CA Vallejo, CA
    Jan. 13, 2014 8:51 a.m.

    DraperUteFan -

    Give up while you are still ahead.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 8:56 a.m.

    bribri86 - "Even the most objective sports analysis would say that the Utes are not anything this year. Their schedule is over inflated with bad teams, with only one quality win against their hype game."

    Ute fans did get caught up in the hype a bit -- Cougar hype. We should be smarter than that. When we blew away the Cougars and the newspapers headlined "Utes are back", we should have waited to see if the Cougars would live up to their hype. After BYU lost horribly to Loyala on the road, Ute fans knew we hadn't beaten a real team team yet. Thank goodness for that quality win against Oregon State!!

    Still, on the moral victory side, all our losses were by 2 points until last night when we lost by 3. Kick the offense out of its slump and we can win a couple of these!

  • J-TX Allen, TX
    Jan. 13, 2014 8:58 a.m.

    "The Utes were facing the only team in the league with a losing overall record, a squad that was missing its leading scorer and didn’t have a single player averaging double figures"

    And still they lost.....ouch.

  • oddman ,
    Jan. 13, 2014 9:02 a.m.

    This loss reminds me of our loss to the Utes, only they were hotter than a firecracker when they steamrolled us. I thought they were back to the Majerus heights but saddly those who have commented correctly. The preseason patsies didn't prepare them for the grind of tough conference play. Wonder how they'd do in the WCC, probably not good.

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 9:04 a.m.

    @ougarSunDevil it is not hard to fill a wcc high school gym when it only seats 1000 fans. Thats all the support the teams in the wcc have because the teams really arent that great. You know you are in a bad conference when your best team Gonzaga loses to your worst team Sanfransico and all your teams have at least one loss in conference play.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    Jan. 13, 2014 9:16 a.m.

    Crow

    "Face it you left the MWC because your AD knew you would not be able to compete against the better competition."

    LOL at your utterly false claims and whiny excuses.

    BYU competed just fine in the MWC. In fact, Dave Rose won 4 championships and finished 2nd twice in the six years he competed in the MWC before moving to the WCC conference. Rose's MWC record: 78-18 (81%) - 12-4, 13-3, 14-2, 12-4, 13-3, 14-2.

    During the same period in the MWC, Utah won one championship and had 5 losing seasons with a record of: 44-52 (46%) - 6-10, 6-10, 7-9, 12-4, 7-9, 6-10.

    It's obvious which team was a contender and which team was only a pretender.

    Current RPI and where that would place BYU and Utah in the WCC and PAC 12 conferences:

    #38 BYU (2nd in the WCC, 6th in the PAC 12)
    #166 Utah (10th in the WCC, 12th in the PAC 12)

  • TrueBlue Orem, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 9:32 a.m.

    Crow

    "... it is not hard to fill a WCC high school gym when it only seats 1000 fans."

    There isn't a single gym in the WCC that only seats 1000 fans, and the Utes have never even come close to filling the largest "gym" in the WCC that seats over 20,000 fans.

    "You know you are in a bad conference when your best team Gonzaga loses to your worst team San Fransico [sic]..."

    Fifth place #95 San Francisco's RPI is in the Top 100, 71 places higher than #166 Utah. The PAC 12 just suffered a similar upset with 2nd place #12 Colorado losing to 8th place #86 Washington.

    5 of the 10 teams in the WCC are in the Top 100, placing the WCC in the top third of conferences, which would be considered a good conference by any objective fan.

  • jarka-rus Layton, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 9:38 a.m.

    thought this team was poised to make a deep tourney run Crissy and SEC oops I mean Pac fans? LOL but just pound your chests about moral victories and a fluke win against Byu.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 9:46 a.m.

    phoenix
    The entertainment value of you people trying to compare byu to the Pac-12 is off the charts. byu isn't in the Pac-12, doesn't belong in the Pac-12, and will never be in the Pac-12. Get over it.

    TrueBlue
    Nice try but at the end of the day...byu plays in high school gymnasiums because that's where the teams in their conference play.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 9:51 a.m.

    Monday morning and the blue zone faithful are up to their usual tactics. Nothing better to do than to bag on Utah. My how things have changed since the days of Lenny Gomes.

    @Tom in CA, I'll stop when I login Monday morning and there are more BYU fans posting on a Utah thread than Utah fans.

    BYU fans surmise that a team that beat the Cougars by 17 would not fare well in the WCC I can only laugh out loud. When Cougar fans say "yeah, but we'd get ya in our house." When Cougar fans continually make disparaging comments about a PAC conference that has historically owned BYU.

    I'll defend my team, the conference they play in, their coaches, and the decision to transfer to the PAC 12 against the belittling comments of Cougar fans who have so little to cheer about themselves except victories over Pepperdine, LMU, and San Diego.

  • jarka-rus Layton, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 9:55 a.m.

    @Uteology
    "This utah team has a legit shot at march madness and is by far the best team in Utah"
    LOL might wanna rephrase that

  • jarka-rus Layton, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 10:01 a.m.

    @Cougsndawgs from Oregon's article
    "Nice game Utah. It's exciting to see the Utes performing so well. I think this is going to be the surprise team of the PAC12...weren't they picked to finish 10th or something? In the words of Lee Corso, "not so fast"! Athletic guards who defend well and nice length in the front court...good looking team on the hill this year."

    I'm sure Corso is saying "not so fast" to that ridiculous comment.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 10:24 a.m.

    There isn't a single team in the WCC that has a student body over 10,000 and if you look at seating capacity of the WCC gyms, other than the Marriott Center, they are all well below 10,000 and most below 5,000.

    Must be fun beating up on schools whose student body and gym capacity are less than 1/4 the size of BYU, of course with the exception of the Zags who BYU has not fared well against.

    As for how the WCC fares against the PAC 12? 2-6, with the two victories coming from BYU against Stanford and Gonzaga against Washington State. The losses are by double digit margins, including lowly Washington State destroying Pepperdine.

  • Gone fishin Seattle, WA
    Jan. 13, 2014 10:28 a.m.

    Draper,
    Let's not forget that BYU went to Stanford and beat them in their gym. WHO did Stanford just beat this weekend? At least BYU is beating the bottom feeders in the conference, Utah is not. By the way the three wins by BYU this past week all have higher RPI's that either WSU or Utah so the discussion should end here as to the strength of the conference. Yes, the pac may have a few good teams but they are not strong top to bottom, just the top 5 or so. The rest of the conference is PACTHETHIC.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 10:42 a.m.

    Crow
    Sandy , UT

    "Face it you left the MWC because your AD knew you would not be able to compete against the better competition."

    byu left the MWC because Utah was invited to join a prestigious conference and Holmoe got desperate to make it look like he was accomplishing something. byu is in the WCC because their under the table deal with Utah St failed and no one else wanted them.

    DraperUteFan
    Draper, UT

    "Monday morning and the blue zone faithful are up to their usual tactics."

    byu fans get this way when they are outright owned by the Utes. Nothing new. Utah sealed another Deseret Duel on Saturday night and it's only the middle of January. LOL!

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 10:46 a.m.

    @crow

    utah does not have superior talent to BYU, in fact BYU has far superior talent. utah did play a great game against BYU, 7 years of pent up humiliation and frustration unleashed on a unmotivated and complacent BYU team. Congrats, the first win in 7 years probably feels good. But as I said there is a huge disparity in talent and the advantage is on BYU's side. Well at least if you follow utah "fan" "logic" and go off of recruit rankings. not even close. And it is showing now as BYU is starting to get it back together and utah is starting to take the inevitable dive most of us predicted they would.

    I find it interesting how utah "fans" bought into thinking utah might actually be good despite playing the worst pre season schedule in all of D1 and getting one decent win, a complete adrenalin fueled frustration explosion over a superior but disinterested BYU team.

    Congratulations?

  • souptwins Lindon, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 10:51 a.m.

    DraperUte-- you have to at least get things straight to have any credibility. BYU is 1-1 against the PAC this year with the loss to Oregon by 2 (far from "double digit"). Last I checked the size of the Bball floor is the same everywhere and the fans aren't allowed on it no matter how many are watching. You also have to see how many seats there are compared to student body. Very few schools have enough seats for their entire student body. The HC seats no near every student and can't fill what they have much less more. Some of the most winning programs in the country are smaller schools with smaller gyms. Still only 5 players on the floor at a time. The gym storyline is tired and irrelevant. How many watched the game against WSU yesterday? The only thing those empty seats does is make you realize just how many people are NOT there and waste a lot of money heating empty space. When the U consistently fills the HC, we'll all congratulate you. Until then, give it a rest. It just plain doesn't matter.

  • CougarSunDevil Phoenix, AZ
    Jan. 13, 2014 10:52 a.m.

    @row

    "it is not hard to fill a wcc high school gym when it only seats 1000 fans."

    It would be if any of them were playing Utah. LOL

  • Qwest Perfected Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 10:53 a.m.

    That was an ugly game by both teams seriously painful to watch. I don't know what has happened to our shooters but it seems like nobody was wanting to even take a shot last night. Brandon Taylor has completely fallen apart the last three games and that travel at the end of last nights game was horrible. For the life of me, I don't know why the ball was even in his hands to begin with.

    I hope coach K can get it fixed soon because there aren't many conference games on the road that will be any easier than last nights.

    As far as the byu fans on here talking trash, I guess you have already forgotten the "fluke" win Utah had last month. This is just a thought, but you might want to focus on the coogs tough road trip before you bag on the Utes.

    Go Utes!

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 10:55 a.m.

    @phoenix Ohh I am impressed with byus rpi like it really matters since this year the wcc is a one bid league and only the tourney champ will get into the NCAA Tourney. The wcc will get maybe two in the NIT St Marys and Pacific. Where as the PAC should get at least 6 in the NCAA tourney and 4 in the NIT and Utah in the CBI. Head to head Utah destroyed your weak wcc team.

    Maybe Utah can thrash byu again in the CBI.

    While Utah was in the MWC they won the conference 6 times even with Giacoletti and Bolyan at the helm. Utah made the NCAA tourney 7 times and had a Sweet 16 appearnce. How many Sweet 16 appearences did BYU have during their time in the MWC? Utah also had the #1 draft pick in Bogut. How many #1 draft picks has byu had ever?

    Face it Holme knew byu could not compete in the MWC and went to the wcc and even switching to the wcc how many championships does byu have?

  • motorbike Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 10:59 a.m.

    Absolutely pathetic showing by the Runnin' Utes. There's no way to spin that into anything else.

    That said, most teams in the country are going to lay an egg or two throughout the season, especially a young team that's still one more year from completing it's rebuilding project.

    No question the lack of road games or better opponents during the out of conference schedule has left this team a bit unprepared... however, I'm not so sure it would've had much of an affect overall simply because there were also positives that came from playing the schedule they played.

    For now, Ute fans need to view this as a blip on the radar for this years team and hope they get back on the path of progress. That and we need to continue showing up for home games, it's obvious that in the PAC 12 it's not easy for any team to win in anyone else's building ... so lets make it hard for teams to win in ours!

    Go Utes!

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 11:25 a.m.

    "there is a huge disparity in talent and the advantage is on BYU's side."
    "unmotivated and complacent BYU team."
    "a superior but disinterested BYU team."

    Duckhunter,
    I don't disagree with your knock on Utah...but, what's going on in happy valley?

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    Jan. 13, 2014 11:25 a.m.

    Packed smaller gyms are much more noisy and intimidating that cavernous empty gyms.

    It's laughable that Utah fans constantly beat their chests about their conference when the Utes have done absolutely NOTHING in that conference:

    4-5, 3-6, 2-7 = 9-18 in football with 0 road wins versus PAC 12 teams with winning records

    3-15, 5-13, 1-3 = 9-31 in basketball, 1-19 on the road

    btw, BYU drew more fans for LMU (15,187) than Utah did for #10 Oregon (13,426).

    on the other hand, the Utah/WSU game only drew 2,375 fans; an absolute embarrassment for a supposedly major conference game.

  • Objectified Tooele, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 11:28 a.m.

    @ DraperUteFan:

    Saying BYU is irrelevant is nonsense and makes it hard for anyone to take you seriously on these posts. BYU has beaten Utah 10 of their last 12 games. If BYU is actually irrelevant, then what's a word that means less-than-irrelevant for the Utes?

    If Utah beats Stanford at Stanford... as BYU did, then I'll paying a bit more attention to you. But until then, please also remember that because the PAC television station isn't available on Direct-TV Satellite (the biggest satellite company in the USA), BYU continues to play to bigger overall audiences than Utah does... regardless of gym sizes.

    BYU is currently on a multi-game winning streak... and against teams with winning records, while Utah is currently on a multi-game losing streak.

    What difference does it make how great your conference is if you aren't able to be competitive in it? Being a tiny fish in a big pond doesn't get much attention.

    Another question to consider: How long has it been since BYU has NOT played in post-season play... and how long has it been since Utah HAS?

    Face the facts and move on.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    Jan. 13, 2014 11:32 a.m.

    "There isn't a single team in the WCC that has a student body over 10,000..."

    How embarrassing for U then, that 9 of the 10 WCC schools have higher RPI rankings than U.

  • PAC 12 loves U Sandy, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 11:34 a.m.

    Definitely beats playing in the Weak Coast Conference (WCC).

  • Objectified Tooele, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 11:49 a.m.

    @ MyPerspective:

    You keep talking about the size of gyms in the WCC. Why? What difference does it really make? Because most games are televised, it's the overall number of people who watch the games that really counts... a lot more than just the number of students who do.

    BYUtv (which televises most of BYU's games) is televised nationally and also internationally to many parts of the world.

    PAC12-tv (which televises most of Utah's games) isn't even televised with the biggest satellite company in the U.S... let alone to an international audience.

    The overall number of fans who watch BYU's games versus the number of fans who watch Utah's games isn't even close. BYU wins hands down. It's a dumb argument to pursue for a Ute fan.

    BYU has been a top-3 team in their conference since joining... usually being ranked only behind nationally ranked teams in conference.

    Utah has almost always finished in the bottom 2 since joining their conference... seldom even beating teams in the lowest tier.

    It's much better to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond than being a tiny fish in a big pond.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 12:08 p.m.

    Objectified
    If you enjoy watching your cougs play in venues where the bleachers are pulled out from the wall before a game and is far, far short of the membership Holmoe tried to secure in the MWC...there's no reason for you to give anything I say a second thought. Also, I watched an event on byutv last year and the entire broadcast was completely bereft of any meaningful analysis or insight to the opponent. I would classify the byutv broadcast as mickey mouse. If that's your idea of great television, then again...you shouldn't give anything I say a second thought.

    That said, I have to ask...what's the reason for your post?

  • Solomon Levi Alpine, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 12:15 p.m.

    "Definitely beats playing in the Weak Coast Conference (WCC)."

    The sorry Utes couldn't even compete in the WCC.

    Current RPI would place the #166 Utes 10th in the WCC.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 12:18 p.m.

    skywalker says "9 of the 10 WCC schools have higher RPI rankings than U."
    Ah, the beloved RPI. Reminds me of Cougar fans who'd quote Sagarin Ratings after losing the football scoreboard - until BYU fell behind Utah in the Sagarin Ratings too.

  • Objectified Tooele, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 12:19 p.m.

    @ PAC 12 loves U:

    Being a bottom dweller in a big conference NEVER beats being competitive in any other conference... regardless of the conference.
    And like skywalker pointed out, 9 of the 10 WCC teams currently have better RPI rankings than Utah.

    Also, the WCC has nationally ranked teams every year... just like the PAC12.

    BYU has played at least 4 nationally ranked teams so far this season (losing 2 by a single score), while Utah has played a total of 1 ranked team. So who is it that's not afraid to mix it up with the big boys... and who is it that is... regardless of conference affiliation?

    Reading the positive posts of BYU fans after BYU's latest win on their ongoing winning streak, compared to the negative posts of Ute fans after Utah's latest loss on their ongoing losing streak, makes it abundantly clear that BYU fans are currently much happier than Ute fans... as well they should be. The two teams are going in opposite directions.

    Considering how both teams are playing right now, reading Ute fans trying to put BYU down reminds me of someone trying to spit into the wind. Sad.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 12:31 p.m.

    First and foremost, I'm a BYU fan.

    Beyond that, I would like see Utah (and USU) to do well in their respective conferences and consequently represent the state of Utah well on the national scene, whenever possible and in any and all sports.

    I'm very happy about BYU's current winning streak, beating their last 2 games each by double digits.

    I'm not happy about Utah's current losing streak. The one thing positive I can say about Utah losses right now is that they've been very competitive in each of them, with each going down to the last possession. That actually leaves reason for hope that many Ute fans don't seem to currently see.

  • Objectified Tooele, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 1:07 p.m.

    @ MyPerspective:

    You don't even have to read between the lines to answer your own question as to the reason for my last post. As I mentioned in the first sentence of that post, it was to explain to you and others that the gym size a team plays in isn't as important as you seem to think. It's silly that you and a few others keep trying to make an issue of that.

    As I explained, the overall audience size is much more important than the number of students who go to a game. And since almost all games are now televised, that's a very relevant consideration.

    Of course you will criticize BYUtv's analysis! You've shown yourself to be a very biased Ute fan who doesn't like anything BYU... kind of a Chris B protegee. I don't remember the last time you wrote anything positive about BYU... even after they beat Stanford on their home court in a nationally televised ESPN broadcast.

    People who don't like BYUtv's announcers say can always turn down the volume and still watch the game. People with Direct-TV can't watch any Utah games.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 1:25 p.m.

    jarka-rus
    Layton, Utah

    @Uteology
    "This utah team has a legit shot at march madness and is by far the best team in Utah"
    LOL might wanna rephrase that

    ----------

    What? You lie! Not my comment.

    Might wanna research that.

    Speaking of rephrasing...

    jarka-rus
    4:32 p.m. Dec. 14, 2013
    "Mark it down!"

    Source: BYU, Utah basketball: Cougar, Ute hoops rivalry still alive and well

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 1:32 p.m.

    Objectified, go back and read the first page posts. The scoreboard doesn't even hit zero before the Utah bashing starts by Cougar fans, so those of us who respond with replies that involve BYU having little more to brag about after losing to Utah in football and basketball this year and playing in a conference that is 2-6 against the PAC 12 is about as classy as Colin Kaepernick mocking the Superman gesture of Cam Newton.

    Utah fans hoped for a better outcome this year and still do. I attended the Oregon game and saw a full Hunstman Center and a much improved team on the court. That hasn't translated yet to enough games, but Utah's roster is mostly sophomores and juniors.

    BYU should be drilling every team in the WCC except Gonzaga. Cmon, if you don't think that then you should. That league is the equivalent of the West Coast Ivy League...not as good from top to bottom as the MWC that BYU wanted out of so badly.

    As far as national ranked teams in the WCC, usually you are talking about 2 (Gonzaga and sometimes 1 other team who usually loses in the first round).

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 1:32 p.m.

    Solomon Levi
    Alpine, UT

    "Definitely beats playing in the Weak Coast Conference (WCC)."

    The sorry Utes couldn't even compete in the WCC.

    Current RPI would place the #166 Utes 10th in the WCC.

    ------------

    How? With a thumping of BYU we would be 1-0.

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 1:40 p.m.

    @Duckhunter what superior talent does byu have. It is evident that they dont have they athletic players to play against the likes of Utah, Oregon, Iowa St., UMass and their performance on the road in the wcc please. byu is a joke of a team.

    Wright > Haws
    Taylor > Carlino
    Loveridge > Austin
    Bachynski> Mica
    Onwas> Collinsworth

  • LonestarRunner Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 1:46 p.m.

    SoonerUte

    "Ah, the beloved RPI. Reminds me of Cougar fans who'd quote Sagarin Ratings after losing the football scoreboard - until BYU fell behind Utah in the Sagarin Ratings too."

    You should study Sagarin's rankings a little more closely.

    True, in Sagarin's final 2013 rankings, #35 BYU is ranked ONE PLACE behind #34 Utah.

    However, Sagarin's Predictor ranks BYU #30, Utah #32, and his Pure_ELO, which was used in the BCS computer formula, ranks BYU #39, Utah #65.

    In the final BCS standings, BYU was ranked #40, Utah #54, and in CBS Sports, BYU was ranked #51, Utah #71.

    Overall consensus for 2013, BYU finished ahead of Utah in the vast majority of final rankings.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 1:47 p.m.

    DirecTV has a long history of not carrying regional broadcasts and their latest controversy is the possibility of dropping the Weather Channel. I see no relevance to DirecTV and their inability to finalize a contract with regional sports networks. The Mountain had that problem with DTV too.

    Unless you are a BYU fan, BYU sports is not a national brand with widespread interest outside BYU fans or members of the LDS Church, so national exposure doesn't necessarily mean widespread national interest.

    All that said, do Cougar fans really enjoy the prestige of playing in the WCC and beating the likes of Portland, San Diego, Pacific, and LMU? Everyone talks about RPI as if that is the end all be all, yet you are beating teams you should beat for the most part and you have a lot of very winnable games on the schedule. Unless you are Arizona and maybe UCLA, there is hardly a team in the PAC 12 who can look at their schedule and pencil in an automatic win. Conversely, when Gonzaga and BYU look at their schedules, you know they are already mentally pencilling in the victories.

  • Objectified Tooele, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 1:49 p.m.

    @ SoonerUte:

    You are right. Utah did end up finishing ahead of BYU in the end of season Sagarin football rankings by a fraction of one point... just barely. However, BYU did finish better than Utah in most other national rankings. No question that BYU's bad bowl performance hurt them.

    However, that was then and this is now. Football season is past and we are currently in the middle of college basketball season. And the unquestionable fact is that BYU is currently ranked higher than Utah, even though Utah beat them earlier.

    That means national college basketball pundits who unbiasedly and objectively access each team's current and overall performance rates BYU as the better team. You and any other ultra-biased Ute fans can scream and rail about that all you want. But it doesn't change the fact that they do. The rankings are what they are. Neither of us can change that.

    Reminisce all you want to about other sports in the past. But for the here and now, BYU is definitely and indisputably nationally ranked better than Utah. That could later change. But for now, it is what it is.

    End of story.

  • motorbike Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 1:51 p.m.

    Duckhunter

    "one decent win...over a superior but disinterested BYU team."

    How many times will BYU fans use this same excuse? I guess Utah fans should start saying the same thing in regard to why our team went into the 7-year funk you mentioned ... we were just disinterested after having owned BYU in the Majerus years.

    Weak. Extremely weak. But welcome back!

  • LonestarRunner Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 1:55 p.m.

    Uteology

    One game does not a season make.

    Current RPI
    #39 BYU (2nd in the WCC)
    #166 Utah (10th, if the Utes were in the WCC)

    Even with the upset in SLC, Utah would be a heavy underdog in a rematch in Provo - see Pepperdine and LMU.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:05 p.m.

    Objectified
    "I don't remember the last time you wrote anything positive about BYU..."

    Great observation, thank you for pointing that out. Do you know why I don't write anything positive about byu? Because I don't post on byu articles. What I do is respond to the criticism of byu fans who post on Utah articles. Changes the perspective a bit, doesn't it?

    I don't care what byu does. I don't care about their wins and I don't care about their losses. I don't care who they play, who they don't play, who they lose to, or who they beat. I don't read articles about byu. All the information I have on byu's sports in general is obtained from posts on Utah articles.

    Further, I don't care about byutv. My observation is that it's Micky Mouse but that's based on a very professional production broadcast by the Pac-12 Network. There is a world of difference, my friend.

    So, if you missed the point of my post...I don't care about byu. However, I love seeing comments from you, jakarus, Duckhunter, et al...wildly entertaining.

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:09 p.m.

    @ Solomon Levi well Soloman since byu is a so called power house in the wcc Utah would dominate the league including manhandling Gonzo who lost to USF. Your conference is so bad everyteam has at least one loss in conference. That shows a very weak conference.

  • Tom in CA Vallejo, CA
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:09 p.m.

    Crow -

    If Haws were a ute (a big if) would he be a starter, or would he be warming the bench?? It's a simple question.

    And your response is?

  • New to Utah PAYSON, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:21 p.m.

    As a newcomer to Utah I've got to say that the hype given to the UofU far exceeds the
    performance both of the football team and basketball team. It was frankly mind boogling the near ecstasy the state media had when Utah beat Stanford in football.Having a daughter and son in law at the U my desire would be for them to meet expectations in sports. The UofU does deserve an A for medical research but I'm generous in giving them a C in sports.It's time to actually perform to a satisfactory level and maybe the expectations are unrealistic so be real
    and start with a winning season for both teams.

  • Objectified Tooele, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:22 p.m.

    @ DraperUteFan:

    I did go back and read the first page of comments to this article (20 posts) and saw "BYU" mentioned only about 4 times. And a couple of those were not Ute put-downs at all. One known BYU fan (Tators) was even quite complimentary of the Utes.

    The negative comments didn't really get going until a bit later with the usual tit-for-tat back-and-forth banter that usually ends up happening on almost every Utah and BYU sports article... and usually by the same dozen or so fans. I don't see that ever changing with ultra-biased fans on each side. It just comes with the territory.

    What's funny about the thousands of back and forth banter over the past few years is that not even one fan has been known to change their position regarding their team patronage. It's all just a matter of blowing off steam and never missing an opportunity to poke at the other guys.

    You are totally right about BYU should've been drilling most of the WCC teams. It's been a bit disappointing so far for both BYU and Ute fans. Hopefully, that will now change.

  • jarka-rus Layton, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:27 p.m.

    @Uteology
    my bad it was Big 12 called yet!
    my mistake and apologies

  • jarka-rus Layton, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:32 p.m.

    Crow
    LOL wow that comment was ridiculous I'm still laughing.
    Haws 23 ppg
    Wright 15
    Yeah he gets more rebounds so what?
    And just comparing one game against Oregon since you Pac fans like them so much since they are the "big boys" of your conference. Haws had 32 in their house. Wright had 14 at home, yeah such a superior athlete to Haws

  • jarka-rus Layton, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:37 p.m.

    Ute fan teaching lesson 101
    Coach K is a HOFer that coaches at Duke University, top 25 ranked team, multiple National Championships. One against your precious Pac brothers LOL
    Coach Krysko coaches the Utesies.
    Class dismissed.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:38 p.m.

    @ Crow:

    If "BYU is a joke of a team" as you say, then why do all the national rankings have BYU rated so much better than Utah? What's a term for a team that is worse than a joke?

    Think a bit more about it. Would "a joke of a team" beat Stanford (who themselves have beaten 2 nationally ranked teams) on national television, and on their own home court?

    Would "a joke of a team" take 2 different nationally ranked teams down to the wire on the last play of those games?

    Would "a joke of a team" currently be one of the highest scoring college teams in the nation?

    Would "a joke of a team" just get through beating 2 teams with winning records by double digits in each game?

    And yet BYU has done each of those things.

    If that's what you think a joke is, then the joke's actually on you.
    You would never make it as a comedian.
    On second thought, the things you write are kinda funny.

  • 54-10 Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:39 p.m.

    LonestarRunner
    Salt Lake City, UT

    Please remind us how BYU finished on the field aganist Utah both this year, the last 4 years and 9 of the last 12 years.

    Pathetic.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:41 p.m.

    Gone Fishin, if the PAC 12 is so PACTHETIC (another made up word like blue zone?), then why did the #3 team in the conference, Pepperdine, lose to Wazzu by 17? Oh right, any team can beat any team by 17 on any given night...forgot the BYU RPI/we would be you if we played you again corollary.

    If the top 5 are the only good teams in the PAC, then your win against the 7th best team in the conference, Stanford, is not as meaningful as you thought.

    I've said it before, when BYU beats a team from the PAC 12 they count it as a signature win, otherwise they denigrate the conference. The ACC, the Big 12, the Big East...all with rich tradition in basketball and winning championships, still doesn't match the 15 national titles of the PAC 12.

    Utah is struggling in the PAC 12 and it is no fun losing, but I'd rather play UCLA, Arizona, and Oregon than the WCC. Utah is 1-0 against the WCC, so the argument that Utah wouldn't compete in the WCC has no basis in reality.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:42 p.m.

    @ekute

    "what's going on in happy valley?"

    I'm not sure although I have some idea's. As for the utah game I think it was exactly what I said with a couple of other things thrown in. BYU had already played a very hard pre season schedule leading into that game and had some very close road losses to some top 25, and now top 10, teams. They were emotionally drained in my opinion but a team doesn't perform the way BYU did in those tough games and not be a talented, good team.

    The utah loss was a disheartening one and it carried over into the first two wcc games. Despite what some of the other utah fans on here are claiming BYU is actually a younger team than utah is and several first year players have large roles. They're still gorwing and learning as well. But the talent is there, you can see it. They just need to learn that they can always play defense although they won't always shoot well. That seems to be the thing missing from this teams overall mindset, a desire to play tough defense.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:50 p.m.

    "End of story" Objectified? Teams have just started confernence play. The season doesn't end until mid-March. How are we at the "end of story", already? Since we are at mid-season, please be open to the concept that {gasp} the RPI might change.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 2:54 p.m.

    @motortrike

    You may think it 'weak" but it is 100% correct. BYU is the better team they just had a bad game. It happens. Of course you know that to be true it is just your false pride that won't allow you to publicly admit it.

    And by the way, you cannot find a single post from me making that claim about BYU/utah in football the last few years, I don't believe that to be the case in that sport. But in basketball it is how it is. beating BYU one time in 7 years, and for only the second time in 12 games, does not catapult utah into superiority. Anytime two teams play regularly the inferior team is going to occasionaly win, and that is what happened this year. Enjoy it for sure but you don't have to pretend you believe what you say with me.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 3:00 p.m.

    @ MyPerspective:

    For a guy who claims no interest in anything BYU, you certainly disguise it well. I counted at least 3 different posts you made to this one article where you talk about the size of gyms BYU plays in. Wow. I didn't know you cared so much... even about such irrelevant details.

    You've also commented about BYU's athletic director and BYU's relationships to both the MWC and the WCC. For a guy who doesn't care anything about BYU, you certainly claim to know a lot about them. You even like to come off as self-proclaimed expert on BYU fans.

    And I'm sure you made Objective's day by calling him (or her) your friend. Obviously, deep down, you apparently really do like BYU fans.

    Perhaps you're a lot like Chris B... a secret BYU admirer who likes to feign otherwise.

    It's actually you and self-contradicting posts who is quite entertaining.

  • FuzzyLogic VACAVILLE, CA
    Jan. 13, 2014 3:15 p.m.

    I find it interesting that so far this season Utah averages 8,569 in attendance with an average capacity of 13,795 for an attendance ratio for .621 while BYU in those WCC "high school" gyms is averaging an attendance of 11,816 with average capacity of 15,640 and an attendance ratio of .756.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 3:24 p.m.

    @ DraperUteFan:

    One simple question...

    If BYU doesn't have widespread national interest and is not a national brand, as you are contending, then why did ESPN sign BYU to an 8 year contract worth 8 digit bucks to broadcast their games?

    ESPN is a very savvy business who does lots of market research before signing any such long term contract and paying out so many millions of dollars.

    When it comes to reality, ESPN sees it much more clearly than you do. And probably me too for that matter. We're both biased fans with no money on the line regarding our comments here. Not the same for ESPN. They aren't biased at all when it comes to business deals. They stay objective and only do what will make them money.

    And if BYU didn't have a large, substantial national following, they would've never given BYU such a long-term contract. It's a given. The following is obviously there. ESPN is betting tens of millions of dollars on it.

    I'll believe their professional pro-BYU market research over your personal anti-BYU sentiments every time.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 3:38 p.m.

    @ 54-10:

    Concerning the sport this article is about, college basketball...

    Please remind us how Utah finished on the court against BYU in the last 11 of 13 games.

    Just as pathetic as BYU's recent record against Utah in football.

    It doesn't take doctor's degree to understand that Utah has basically owned BYU in football over the past several years... and that BYU has basically owned Utah on the court over that same period. Eventually, both statements will turn back around... like they always historically do. It's cycled back in forth in both sports for nearly a century.

    But thanks so much for your extremely insightful and unbiased comment.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 4:14 p.m.

    Objectified and Tators, you are both more fair and objective than many of the critics who love to bash without reservation or even a shred of objectivity at times.

    I'm not a BYU hater. BYU fans like to beat Utah and enjoy bragging rights. I get it, I enjoy it when Utah beats BYU. I lived through the 70's and 80's as a youth in Utah when BYU was kicking Utah's trash in football and knew a lot of BYU fans who just loved to rub salt in the wound.

    As has been said by many posters on both sides, I don't like the ugly side of the rivalry...the constant one-upsmanship and tearing down, but Utah athletics is under siege often times and I feel the necessity to defend my alma mater. I'm sure Cougar fans feel the same at times, so I don't fault those who want their opinion heard as well.

    Neither school is doing particulary well relative to expectations of fans on both sides, which probably only adds to the rancor that can end up in comments.

  • Qwest Perfected Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 4:21 p.m.

    @duckhunter

    Sorry I agree with Motorbike. That is the weakest arguement I think you or any other byu fan has ever made for losing against the Utes.

    A bunch of the kids on each team have grown up playing against each other. You can't seriously think they weren't motivated or interested in winning that game. Why do you think Mika lost his temper and got thrown out? Are you saying that he wasn't interested in winning.

    The two teams played head to head and the outcome wasn't even close this year. Beyond that, there isn't much to argue about.

    I do have to give you credit for being consistant though. It seems like in football for the last handfull of years, you are always claiming that byu is the better team by the end of the season after they beat up on the Idaho States of the world.

    Try again.

    Go Utes!

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 4:27 p.m.

    Duckhunter
    Highland, UT

    "BYU had already played a very hard pre season schedule leading into that game and had some very close road losses to some top 25, and now top 10, teams. They were emotionally drained in my opinion but a team doesn't perform the way BYU did in those tough games and not be a talented, good team."

    Hold on there, Duck, let me go get a violin.

    In all of your rants leading up to the Utah game you never once, proffered the even slightest recognition that Utah had talent and might win that game let alone by a blow out. Your obsessive focus on the Utes zeroed in on their soft preconference schedule leading up to their game with the vaunted cougs from Provo, Utah.

    Further, you never at any time put forward the notion that your cougs were tired and I'm not buying it now. All your whiny excuses will not change the fact that your cougs were out manned, out played, out coached, and flat out blown out of the HC.

    It's good to have you back, Duck.

  • UteTrog Phoenix, AZ
    Jan. 13, 2014 4:32 p.m.

    Hey fellow ute fans. It's not prestigious if we loose over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. Beating BYU this year has been the highlight of our basketball season. Let's be realistic. We're not NIT bound.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 4:36 p.m.

    FuzzyLogic, what is they say about statistics? Lies, other kinds of lies, and statistics? Would you want to go see St. Katherine or Texas State play right before Christmas? Thought so. In last weekends conference games there were in excess of 14,000 at both games and the Wazzu game brings the average attendance way down. We all saw the empty seats at the game with Washington State.

    If you are counting home/away attendance, BYUs home attendance is of course going to increase that number markedly. The high school gym attendance in BYU's two away games is averaging 2,612 souls, while the Marriott Center in three games is averaging just over 15,000.

    Kind of skews the numbers don't you think?

  • Objectified Tooele, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 4:42 p.m.

    @ SoonerUte:

    It would be helpful if you would actually read comments being replying to them.
    You ask that I "please be open to the concept that (gasp) the RPI might change."

    Yet here's a copy and paste from my previous comment to you:

    "But for the here and now, BYU is definitely and indisputably nationally ranked better than Utah. That could later change. But for now, it is what it is."

    Please read the 2nd sentence from that quote, or go to my actually comment to you on page 5. I specifically noted that the RPI could later change... all in simple English.
    Obviously, I was open to that obvious concept before your redundant request.

    It really is the "end of the story" concerning the fact that BYU CURRENTLY has a better RPI ranking than Utah. It's the end of that story because that fact is currently indisputable. The emphasis of that entire comment to you was what the CURRENT status is.

    And it's not news that we're early in the conference season... something that even a Ute fan should understand. Yet many Ute fans seem to have thrown in the towel on this season already.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 4:53 p.m.

    Tators, if you are contending that BYU is a highly sought after national brand simply because they are playing on ESPN, I've got some news for you: 1) My daughter works for BYU broadcasting. One of the reasons BYU got this lucrative contract is because of their broadcast facilities (without question, some of the best in the nation). BYU offered almost limitless access to their broadcast services/facilities as part of the deal, which was what made ESPN salivate 2) BYU went from playing on ESPN to now almost always being on ESPN 2, so the prestige you assume is simply not there. The BYU games that are broadcast are usually at oddball times (very late on Friday or Saturday evening).

    If you live in the Midwest or the East Coast, are you going to stay up to watch BYU play at 9 or 10 pm if you aren't a Cougar fan? I highly doubt it.

    So ultimately, ESPN did this as much for the facilities, and I didn't say BYU didn't have fans, I said those fans are primarily BYU alum and LDS church members scattered throughout the United States. If you think otherwise, I beg to differ.

  • PAC man Anaheim, CA
    Jan. 13, 2014 4:55 p.m.

    eating Crow

    "Your conference is so bad every team has at least one loss in conference. That shows a very weak conference."

    No, that shows a conference that has balance and parity with no single team dominating the conference.

    Utah, on the other hand, is a perennial conference bottom dweller. The Utes are a bottom dweller in the PAC 12, and they'd be a bottom dweller in the WCC.

  • Objectified Tooele, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 5:06 p.m.

    @ DraperUteFan:

    Well said. I whole-heartedly agree with your last comment about the status of back and forth comments between Ute and Cougar fans.

    Much of what is said is born of personal team pride and some of it comes from frustration when things aren't going so well... as you noted. There are constant ups and downs in each sport for each school in nearly every season. That's the way it's always been and the way it probably will always be.

    Our grandkids will probably someday pick it up from where we end up leaving it off. And hopefully they will keep it in perspective and not take the biased comments against their respective schools too seriously. I know none of them currently cause me to lose any sleep.

    Anyway, I enjoyed the civility of your comment.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Jan. 13, 2014 5:26 p.m.

    All the concern regarding Utah's basketball program from BYU fans is interesting. Also interesting that when Utah throttled BYU, most of these so called fans were no where to be seen. Now they are coming out of the wood work. What a classy bunch indeed. You would almost think BYU has a great team this year by the comments. The fact of the matter is that neither Utah or BYU do; but Utah absolutely crushed BYU this year.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 5:30 p.m.

    Since 1994, Gonzaga has won 12 of 20 Conference championships. If that isn't domination, I don't know what is.

    In the same span, UCLA has the most PAC 12 conference championships with 7. I'd argue the PAC 12 has better parity than most major conferences in the country.

    What does it say about BYU then if parity means being comparable to Pacific, St. Marys, Pepperdine, etc., yet they almost never beat the Zags?

    Utah is not a perennial conference bottom dweller. The Utes have endured their worst basketball stretch in the history of the school the last dozen years.

    According to Sagarin rankings, utah is 19th all time among all NCAA college basketball programs. Pretty decent for a "perennial bottom dweller." Perhaps a history lesson of basketball past and present is in order before making such "perennial" declarations.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 5:56 p.m.

    Duckhunter

    Despite what some of the other utah fans on here are claiming BYU is actually a younger team than utah is and several first year players have large roles.

    ---------

    Younger? Age or class? According to class:

    BYU players averaging 9+ minutes per game: 6 JR, 1 SO, 2 FR
    Utah players: 1 SR, 3 JR, 4 SO, 2 FR

    Lenz is the only senior, he is averaging 5 minutes a game in PAC-12 play.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 5:57 p.m.

    @ DraoerUteFan:

    How sad. Your daughter gets a paycheck from BYU and yet you hang out with the trolls.

    But thanks for the news.
    Now here's some additional news for you. Whenever any games are played, they will always be more ideal in some time zones than in others.

    More news.... ESPN2 is also a nationally broadcast network that reaches multiple times more households than the PAC12 station does. And I do agree with you that BYU has much better facilities than Utah does. Even good enough to make ESPN salivate.

    It shouldn't be news to you that Utah's fans are also primarily their alumni. But I won't beg to differ, whether you agree or not.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 6:18 p.m.

    @ Spokane Ute:

    You are absolutely right about Utah throttling BYU this season. It was humbling to us and unexpected. So why wouldn't it quiet us for awhile? Ute fans are always uncharacteristically quiet when they lose to BYU, too. No surprise there.

    And when you consider that BYU just beat 2 teams with winning records.... and both games by double digits, it's no surprise we're again a bit more vocal and outgoing again. It's called human nature. Don't take offense. Ute fans do it too when their team is winning. Unfortunately, that didn't happen for them this past week. But next week the tables might be turned again.

    But until then, please try hard to understand. It's the nature of sports fans. I do wish the Utes success with their tough conference games.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 6:36 p.m.

    @ DraperUteFan:

    Allow me to clarify.
    The reason Utah has recently been called a perennial bottom dweller (and I'm certain that hurts Ute pride) is not because their entire school sports history isn't good, but rather because since the new era of PAC12 membership, that's where the Utes have finished each season in both football and basketball.

    That's the current perspective of what most fans are now seeing. And it doesn't help that Ute fans seldom refer to anything pre-PAC12. Those times are long gone for most Ute fans as well as others who comment on these sport articles. Utah is going to have to win their way out of that negative designation. Hopefully, they'll do it sooner than later.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 7:21 p.m.

    @ DraperUteFan:

    Allow me to clarify.
    The reason Utah has recently been called a perennial bottom dweller (and I'm certain that hurts Ute pride) is not because their entire school sports history isn't good, but rather because since the new era of PAC12 membership, that's where the Utes have finished each season in both football and basketball.

    That's the current perspective of what most fans are now seeing. And it doesn't help that Ute fans seldom refer to anything pre-PAC12. Those times are long gone for most Ute fans as well as others who comment on these sport articles. Utah is going to have to win their way out of that negative designation. Hopefully, they'll do it sooner than later.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 7:34 p.m.

    Tators, when Roger Reid was fired and Steve Cleveland took over, there was a stretch of three seasons when BYU was 22-62. Should I conclude that BYU was "a perennial cellar dwellar" because of those three years? When you use the word perennial in the context of sports, it is a body of work over a long period of time. We've all heard the phrase of a team being a perennial contender, implying long-term results.

    As for the argument that ESPN2 equates to a national audience, all I would say is ESPN2 late on a Friday night equates to national reach, not necessarily a large national audience watching. It is really a matter of perspective and scale. I say the audience is small though the reach may be large. You conclude otherwise. Perhaps only ratings numbers would clear that up.

  • Chamberlain Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 7:59 p.m.

    Uteology

    "Lenz is the only senior, he is averaging 5 minutes a game in PAC-12 play."

    LOL at how you have to qualify your "stats" when they don't agree with your crimson-shaded bias. Who cares how many minutes Lenz is averaging "in PAC 12 play"?

    Here are the actual numbers for the entire season as posted by TroyTown

    Utah's Top 8 in Minutes Played
    Jordan Loveridge (SO)
    Delon Wright (JR) - new to program
    Brandon Taylor (SO)
    Dakarai Tucker (SO)
    Jeremy Olsen (SO)
    Renan Lenz (SR)
    Princeton Onwas (JR) - new to program
    Dallin Bachynski (JR)

    1 SR, 3 JR, 4 SO, 0 FR (avg 2.625 years) - 6 of 8 played for Utah last season

    BYU's Top 8 in Minutes Played
    Kyle Collinsworth (SO) - just back from a 2-year mission
    Tyler Haws (JR)
    Matt Carlino (JR)
    Nate Austin (JR)
    Eric Mika (FR) - new to program
    Skyler Halford (JR) - new to program
    Frank Bartley IV (FR) - new to program
    Anson Winder (JR)

    0 SR, 5 JR, 1 SO, 2 FR (avg 2.375 years) - 4 of 8 played for BYU last season

    BYU doesn't have a single Senior on their roster.

  • Chamberlain Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 8:14 p.m.

    DraperUteFan

    Utah hasn't just been bad in the PAC 12, the Utes have been cellar dwellers in the MWC and PAC for most of the last decade.

    Since the last remnants of the Majerus era left Utah after the 2004-05 season, the Utes are 128-141 (48%) overall, with 6 of 8 losing seasons. In conference, the Utes are 53-83 (39%) with 7 of 8 losing seasons.

    Thanks to the most pathetic OOC schedule in the country (350th), the Utes will probably finish with a winning overall record, but it's a lead-pipe cinch that the Utes will finish with their 8th losing conference season in the last 9 seasons. If the Utes are lucky, they'll finish slightly better than their 3-15 and 5-13 finishes that they've had last two seasons.

    You may not like it, but the truth is, the Utes are a perennial conference bottom dweller.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Jan. 13, 2014 9:05 p.m.

    At Tators

    You actually gave Utah credit when they won. Your comments are generally constructive and on topic. That's nice for a change. Have a good one Guy!

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 9:48 p.m.

    @Chamberlain

    Sorry according to ESPN TroyTown is wrong. Next year, BYU will have 5 seniors playing significant minutes and Utah will have 3.

    Who cares? Lenz for one. Second, he's 3rd in the rotation at Center.

    Van Dyke and Ogbe are important in Utah's rotation. Olsen is getting more minutes over Lenz. All three are the future of Utah basketball. They add to Utah's depth (9-10 players deep) this year.

    It's not my problem BYU doesn't have depth.

    Utah Minutes Played:

    Starters:
    JR Wright 553
    SO Lovridge 536
    SO Taylor 488
    SO Tucker 341
    SR Lenz 237 (Bench now, 3rd in rotation at Center playing 5 mins per game)

    Bench:
    JR Onwas 234
    JR Bachynski 210
    FR Van Dyke 203
    SO Olsen 181 (Starting now, 15 mins per game, 2nd in rotation with Bachynski)
    FR Ogbe 115

    Source: ESPN

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 9:55 p.m.

    @Chamberlain
    If the Utes are lucky, they'll finish slightly better than their 3-15 and 5-13 finishes that they've had last two seasons.

    -------------

    You mean unlucky. If Loveridge and Taylor continue to shoot as bad as Matt Carlino the rest of the season then we will only win 3-5 conference games. But even with our #2 and #3 players bad shooting Utah wasn't exposed like BYU at LMU.

    ESPN also disagrees with your analysis, but what do they know right?

    Utes've come a long way, baby
    January, 3, 2014
    By Eamonn Brennan | ESPN.com

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 9:56 p.m.

    When you focus on starting five and the players who actually play, BYU has an older roster than Utah. You can slice and dice the years in the program any way you want, but 3 juniors a sophomore and a freshmen trump 4 sophomores and 1 junior.

    Lenz was the starter to begin the season, but is no longer a rotation player. Your spin is the one with shaded glasses trying to make your argument it doesn't matter when it clearly does. Come back with Lenz's playing time stats at the end of the season and after conference play and he will be at the bottom of the list.

    Utah has had some rough years, yet there are signs of improvement and a turnaround on the horizon. Perennial by the definition used in sports rarely applies.

    As for the last decade, Utah has a Sweet 16 appearance, another NCAA tournament appearance,and a first overall NBA pick who actually gets starter minutes in the league.

    On the other hand, BYU is a perennial postseason bust. Two seasons in the last 40 that BYU has made it deep into the tournament.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 13, 2014 10:24 p.m.

    @draperute "fan"

    You need to go back and look at the networks BYU's games were shown on this year, the day's of the week they were played, and the times they started.

    Then you need to go back and look at the network (and I use "network" jokingly) that just about all of utah's games were shown on this year, the day's they were played on, and the times they started.

    Once you do that get back to us and fill us in on how close the truth comes to your claims. I already know the answers and I'm betting once you look at them there is not a chance you'll comeback and post what they are.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2014 11:50 p.m.

    Uteology

    "Sorry according to ESPN TroyTown is wrong. Next year, BYU will have 5 seniors playing significant minutes and Utah will have 3."

    LOL! It's only mid-January and you're already playing the "wait until next year and you'll see" game?

    The truth is, Bachynski, a Junior, is Utah's true starting center, averaging 20 mpg since conference play began. Olsen is only averaging 16 mpg in conference and only played 7 minutes versus Oregon. Bachynski played 30 minutes versus Oregon and has played double-digit minutes in every game he's played in since Nov 21st. Olsen has had 5 single-digit games since Nov 22nd.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 14, 2014 12:02 a.m.

    DraperUteFan

    Utah hasn't won a single NCAA tournament game since Bogut left Utah almost a decade ago.
    The program that Majerus built no longer exists.

    BYU has won FOUR NCAA tournament games since Utah's last tourney win. The Cougars were a national championship contender until they lost their starting center and 2nd best player just before the post-season began. Even so, BYU was within a missed FT in regulation of advancing to the Elite Eight in 2010.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 12:38 a.m.

    Duckhunter, I don't know the BYU broadcast schedule, so if BYU played in prime time and on the main ESPN network most of the time, I stand corrected and congratulations to BYU. I watched some coverage of BYU games and at times the announcers were less than complimentary of BYU's play (the 8-yard punt in the Fight Hunger Bowl comes to mind among others).

    As for the Utes network, I personally don't care who is watching. BYU fans get a great deal of validation and satisfaction being on a national network. Congratulations...is that making for a better team down south?

    The PAC 12 network is some of the best coverage I've seen on TV with great analysis. I've been impressed with Rick Neuheisel, Ronnie Lott, Curtis Conway, and most of the announcers. I enjoy the coverage and don't really care what channel it is on.

    My point was IMO, BYU sports are primarily of interest to the LDS market nationally. I don't think that was some rabid or irrational statement. I know BYU fans who agree. BYU isn't a national brand the way most people interpret branding.

  • sammyg Springville, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 5:40 a.m.

    Where's all that fan dedication that said over and over again how Sunday scheduling was welcomed at the 'hill'.
    (crickets)

    Couldn't happen to a more deserving team or place.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 7:40 a.m.

    Uteanymous, I find it more than a little ironic that the blue zone can celebrate the 84 NC and the glory days of football in BYU's past, but if the Utes celebrate our history in basketball (19th best all-time NCAA program according to Sagarin), Cougar fans pound their chests about their Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda results and denigrate Utah based on recent play.

    I'm glad you can celebrate that we Ute fans have nothing to celebrate in recent years...hope that makes you feel better, but I'm nearing the mid-Century mark and those results of years past matter no less to me. Recently on the PAC 12 network they showed the games where Utah dismantled Arizona and North Carolina to actually get to the Finals game. Oh, and we were ahead in that Kentucky final game with about 8 minutes left to play, but I forgot...close only matters if you are BYU. I can hear the "moral victories" roar coming from the blue zone now. Ditto my DNews posting friends in blue to your team in 2010.

  • Y>U Anaheim, CA
    Jan. 14, 2014 8:07 a.m.

    DraperUteFan

    It's an unfortunate fact that once-proud programs fade from the national scene and never return to prominence.

    BYU may not have won a football NC championship since 1984, but at least BYU has been a perennial Top 25 team since then.

    Utah may have played in the NC game in 1998, but unfortunately for U, the coach responsible for building that program left, and the Utes haven't been factor on the national scene since the last remnants of his program left after the 2004-2005 season.

    Celebrate your history all you want, but accept the fact that it's an era that ended almost a decade ago. The Utes are now nothing but a perennial conference cellar dweller.

  • Objectified Tooele, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 8:20 a.m.

    @ DraperUteFan:

    To keep this in perspective, let's get back to Utah. Do you really and honestly think the Utes are a national brand (the kind you're referring to)... more-so than BYU?
    Try to be honest. Then try to find some numbers to justify your answer.

    By the way... it's really no surprise whatsoever that a hardcore Ute fan feels the PAC12 station announcers are better than the BYUtv announcers. In fact, it would be surprising if you felt otherwise. Or visa-verse.
    Bias (the nature of fans) excludes objectiveness. And most can't recognize it within themselves. You don't seem to be an exception. Don't be surprised. Just think about it.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 8:38 a.m.

    Objectified, I never made an argument for Utah being a national brand.Not once. Feel free to copy/paste a quote where I said that. When BYU fans argued that BYU playing on a national stage indicated a national following, I simply questioned that assumption. I said national exposure for BYU did not by extension mean they were a national brand.

    I also never said the PAC 12 networks were better than BYUtv. BYU may have very fine announcers, all I said was I enjoy the PAC 12 coverage and whether they play on ESPN or not matters little to me. I happen to think the PAC 12 announcers and analysts do a bang up job. That was in no way a backhanded slap at any coverage for BYU. I didn't utter a peep about coverage on BYUtv.

    My apologies if you took that as

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 9:16 a.m.

    @draperutefan

    Frankly I find the pac12 network to be amatuerish. The announcers are neither polished nor are they particularly smooth in their deliveries. Yes some are better than others but overall they are not very good. Then there are the production values, not good at all. Now that can be attributed to the fact they are a new channel and are figuring it all out but at this point those productions will not be winning any emmies.

    Once you get to the studio hosts it really becomes laughable. Not one time have I ever seen one of them pick the team a pac12 team is playing from another conference to win the game. Not once. They always pick the pac12 teams. Yes I know they are the pac12 channel but credibility comes from unbiased commentary and that is completely inexistant on the pac12 channel.

    Yes I have no doubt you enjoy it, extreme homerism is completely ignored by a fan or else welcomed and celebrated. The pac12 channel has a long way to go before it is anything close to a quality product.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Jan. 14, 2014 9:33 a.m.

    Hmm?

    Utes play a game, and the comments are about BYU.

    Is this a sign of insecurity?

  • Objectified Tooele, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 9:51 a.m.

    @ DraperUteFan:

    You are correct. It was another Ute fan (MyPerspective) who yesterday called BYUtv announcers "Mickey Mouse-ish" or some such thing when he was off on one of his rants. My apology for the mix-up.

    However, I never said you contended Utah was a national brand. I simply asked if you thought they are... and relative to BYU's national following. I'm just trying to keep that particular subject in perspective and comparative.

    There is one thing that can't be denied. Playing games on ESPN is a national stage. And BYU was broadcast on ESPN multiple times last year... as well as on ESPN2 and ESPNU. And the ratings were usually pretty decent. So yes, it would be hard to argue that BYU doesn't have a sizable national following.

    But at what point does a person draw a line and make a definitive statement that any particular team is a national brand? That's difficult to say. If there is a way or criteria to objectively determine that, then please share it. Otherwise, it's just one person's opinion against another... which in a format as this one, means very little.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 10:29 a.m.

    Objectified, fair enough, and thank you again for being civil. It is nice to have an exchange that discusses the issues rather than attack mode.

    I've never seen the ESPN ratings. I consider BYU to be a school with name recognition nationally, but in my business travels and discussions with sports fans, I don't see widespread knowledge or interest in BYU sports. My question to BYU fans might be whether there is a lot of talk about BYU sports outside of Utah by national pundits?

    I don't think Utah is a national brand. I agree that identifying national brand is largely personal. I base mine on a few factors: 1) A university that is usually good over a long period of time in multiple sports and a contender for national titles 2) Their identify is beyond primarily regional, cultural, or religious interest. Put another way, if LDS church member interest in BYU was placed on the sidelines, how much interest would there be in BYU sports nationally? 3) TV ratings is a factor in being a national brand.

    IMO, BYU has national name recognition that is largely and LDS brand.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 11:05 a.m.

    worf
    Mcallen, TX

    "Utes play a game, and the comments are about BYU."

    worf, your observation is flawed. The appropriate way to look at it is to say..."the Utes play a game and byu fans have to weigh in. The obsession of byu fans with all things Utah boarders a compulsive disorder."

    Look worf, we get it. Utah is fighting for respect in a premiere conference and byu is...well...no where. We get that it kills byu fans to face that reality an we get that it is no fun (humbling) being forced to acknowledge that byu isn't everything you people once believed it to be. But seriously worf, will every loss Utah experiences in the Pac-12 merit 140+ comments on a sports board?

    btw, worf...are you aware that the Deseret Duel was decided Saturday night only 11 days into the new year?

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 11:35 a.m.

    Duckhunter,
    Your informed comment about the PAC 12 channel is very well thought out and insightful. Thanks for watching.

  • motorbike Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 11:38 a.m.

    worf

    "Hmm? Utes play a game, and the comments are about BYU. Is this a sign of insecurity?"

    Hmm? Utes play a game, and BYU fans come out of the woodwork to comment. Is this a sign of insecurity?

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 11:53 a.m.

    @ Tom in CA Easy if Haws was a Ute he would come off the bench no way he starts over Wright and Taylor. The best attribute for Haws is his ability to score but he is a defensive liability. Because he does not play defense he would not start under Coach K.

    Personally I would start Wright over Haws, Wright is an all around player that can not only play offense but he can defend when needed.

    Wright can score he FGA 66% REB 7.3 Ast5.2 (gets his team involved) STL 2.5 Haws FGA 45% (shoots alot more then Wright) Reb 4.6 Ast 1.2 (does not look to get the team involved) STL 1

    Haws does have a better 3 point avg and free throw but he also takes more shots as well.

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 12:07 p.m.

    @ Tators The reason ESPN signed byu to an 8 year contract is simple. byu is sharing the production cost with ESPN with their new tv studio. ESPN needed programing during garbage hours. This was the same time that Bosie St used to fill for ESPN the Fridays and late, late Saturday nights when no one is watching bbut byu fans.

    Answer me this Tators. The viewership schedule was released for the 2013 season and byu was ranked 57th out of 113 Div I teams the avg a little over 1 million viewers. So if byu has such a great following why are teams like TCU, UCF Vanderbuilt pulling higher ratings. Utah was only 15 spots behind and most of their games were only shown regional on the PAC-12 Network.

    Utah gets $18 million for their TV contract byu can top out at $4.5 million plus they lose part of that by sharing in the costs to produce the game. Great tv contractt and still not as great of following as your kind claims

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 12:25 p.m.

    @ Duckhunter "Based on its large number of alumni and its connection to the LDS church BYU simply has a lot of fans and they are wide spread across the country and even the world."

    I would have to disagree with your statement just because they are byu alumni and have connections to the LDS Church does not make them fans of byu sports. I know plenty of byu alumni who and LDS members who could give a rip about byu sports.

    The TV ratings for the 2014 season would show other wise. Teams such as Rice, TCU, Vanderbuilt, Duke, UCF, Kentucky (basketball school), San Diego St. and Boise St had better TV ratings than byu. byu was assisted by some of the teams they played Notre Dame whos rating was 9th in the country and Texas whos rating was 26th. Take away those two games on byus schedule and your TV ratings are about the same as Utahs. Duckhunter you do not have the the brand that you think you do.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 12:38 p.m.

    The reality is that BYU "very widespread fanbase" in a country of 300 million is nothing more than a subjective knee jerk reaction with no basis in fact. Give us a number Duckhunter.

    The assumption that all LDS church members throughout the country are sports fans and BYU fans is a typical overzealous stretch. It still doesn't address the issue that a national brand typically transcends region or religion (Notre Dame transcends religion as a sports program). Matzo crackers are a well-known brand among Jewish people but by no means a national brand and practically unknown to the overwhelming majority of Americans.

    The teams you mentioned, plus at least a dozen more, play on the major networks several times per year (Alabama, LSU, Oregon, and Oklahoma in football) and Kentucky, North Carolina, Kansas, Michigan State, Arizona, and UCLA in basketball. All have the pull on a national level. BYU football and basketball are not a regular staple on major networks, which is where the real sports ratings game is played out.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 12:52 p.m.

    @draperutefan

    "if LDS church member interest in BYU was placed on the sidelines, how much interest would there be in BYU sports nationally?'

    Let's look at the massive flaws in that statement.

    First of all you cannot take out the LDS member interest, it exists, in massive numbers, all over the country, that is just a fact. It doesn't matter why those people are fans, they either went to school there or else they are fans because BYU is the school that represents their faith, they are fans none the less and they live all over the place. Trying to minimize it simply because of the demographic is extremely weak, a fan is a fan, the reasons don't matter at all so you can give that argument up.

    All schools have fans for a reason, they either went there or they live in that location, whatever. It doesn't matter, they are fans, they exist, and they follow and cheer for their favorite school. No one is questioning why an individual has chosen to be a fan of Texas or Michigan, nor trying to pretend they somehow don't count for some abstract reason.

    continued

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 12:59 p.m.

    In short why a person is a fan is of no consequence, all that matters is that they are a fan. utah will never be a national brand because there is no real reason or ability for them to become a national brand. They are a mid sized public university so their alumni base is not a large one. They exist in a small state, a state that has several other universities including one (BYU) that has more connections to the majority of the states residents than utah has. They are limited to the people that attended or else some that live in the area, no one growing up in Houston is a utah fan, they have no reason to be. But there are thousands of LDS in Houston that are BYU fans, they have a reason to be, it is their churches school.

    The same thing applies all over the country, some places more than others because more LDS reside in those places. It is just a reality, one that appears to be hard for the average utah "fan" to accept. But a national TV contract pretty much proves the truth of it.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 1:03 p.m.

    Duckhunter

    "Trying to minimize it simply because of the demographic is extremely weak..."

    Couldn't have said it better than your own words.

    Again, "massive numbers" is not defined in a country of 300 million. Some might think attendance at their high school games is "massive" and some might even assume attendance at the BYU/Idaho State game was "massive."

    Crow just showed us the TV numbers and they tell the story. The three major networks aren't clamoring for that massive BYU fanbase either.

    The massive numbers exist alright...in someone's idea of who they are instead of the reality of who they are.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 1:07 p.m.

    @ekute

    Although your thanks were obviously not sincere I'll take them anyway. I do watch the pac12 network sometimes when something on it interests me. For instance I watched the second half of utah's loss to wsu Sunday night after the football game ended. I noticed how the on screen graphics were not all that good at times, in fact there were multiple times that different graphics were superimposed over each other making them hard to even read.

    There was also at least once where they returned to the action from a commercial break and play had already begun so we missed several seconds of the game and were left wondering what had happened to get the game to its current point.

    There were other production flaws as well, and they are pretty common on pac12 channel broadcasts, I've watched enough to notice. Now as I said I think much of it can be attributted to the fact it is a new channel and as time goes by those problems will decrease but they exist and at this point they detract from the broadcasts.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 1:23 p.m.

    @draperutefan

    crow didn't "show" us anything, he just made some unsubstantiated claims with nothing to back it up.

    I mentioned Houston Texas as an example because it is one of the largest cities in the country and is far enough away from the Utah base of the LDS church to be demonstrative of the reach.

    In the Houston area there are approximately 65,000 LDS. Now I never said all LDS are BYU fans but lets just use a conservative numer and say 20% are at least passing fans. That means there are at least 13,000 people in Houston Texas that are BYU fans. Of course that is only Houston, in Texas as a whole there are more than 315,000 LDS and using our conservative 20% number that would mean 63,000 BYU fans in Texas.

    California has almost 1 million LDS, Washington st has almost 300,000 ariz has over 400,000, flroida 150,000 the maryland,virgina, DC area has 150,000, and almost every state now has tens of thousands of LDS. even if it is only 1 out of 5 that care about BYU the numbers become huge.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 1:37 p.m.

    Then of course there is the circumstantial evidence. I travel to games. I see the numbers of BYU fans at games in other states, they usually are there in the thousands for football games no matter what state it is played in. It was estimated BYU had more fans at the game they played against Houston, in Houston, this fall than Houston had.

    That means at a venue a couple of thousand miles away from Provo BYU was putting 15,000 fans into the stadium for a regular season game. And that is not rare, that is common.

    Being a national brand does not mean that everyone in the nation is dying to watch your games, it means that you have a large enough base of people, spread across a wide enough geographic area, that you pull decent ratings and decent attendance regardless of where you are at. BYU does that, because there are that many people interested in them. They can go anywhere and reasonably expect several thousand to attend a game, they can be shown on tv and reasonably expect enough viewers to tune in, to make advertisers pay to be on during their games.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 1:39 p.m.

    I'll let Crow speak to the numbers, but they indicate the following for BYU is more comparable to mid-major programs. The anecdotal evidence is the infrequency of BYU playing on the 3 majors. I've yet to see any source data showing the "massive numbers" of BYU fans who are actually watching BYU games.

    The argument on this side isn't whether BYU has fans nationally. The issue disputed is whether BYU belongs in the discussion as a national brand. We have a difference of opinion about what constitutes national in scope.

    TV ratings, not simply appearances on a national networks, are the truest indicator of a "widespread" fan base nationally. If you consider less than 1% statistically significant as a national brand, I'm sure there are some real estate agents who have prime property in Evanston, Wyoming to sell you.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 2:05 p.m.

    Duckhunter, when I attended the UCLA game in the Rose Bowl a few years ago, Utah fans filled two sections of the roughly 94,000 seat Rose Bowl. I recall at the time they estimated 12,000 Utah fans. Utah played their worst game of the season against USC, but I went to the LA Coliseum this year and there were at about 5,000 Ute fans at the game. In 08 there were several thousand Utah fans at the Big House to watch them play Michigan.

    BYU by the very nature of the LDS church being spread out nationally is going to have fans at games wherever they go. You are reinforcing the argument that they are largely an LDS brand. That doesn't mean insignificant, it means niche rather than national. When you use terms like "massive" and "widespread" it usually indicates a larger following.

    More intriguing is the fact that Houston fans cared so little about that game and attendance at LES is not what it used to be.

  • Objectified Tooele, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 2:11 p.m.

    @ DraperUteFan:

    I also appreciate your level of civility in making your points.
    One thing I want to point out in reply to your statement about the infrequency of how often BYU plays on the 3 majors. But because of BYU's contract with ESPN, they will seldom ever play on those 3 networks... depending on with whom and where the game is played.

    Will BYU ever be in the same catagory as Notre Dame? Probably not. Very few schools are.
    But their fans do exceed the quantity of most schools... excluding the nation's biggest programs.

    And BYU's fans are at least as fervent as Notre Dame's or anyone elses... and more-so than most. So it's not just the quantity, but also the quality. As proof, just look at how many of these posts on a Utah article are either directed at and/or written by BYU fans. They aren't shy about showing their support. And hate em or love em... they are there!

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Jan. 14, 2014 3:01 p.m.

    @Crow
    The article you are citing is flawed and is states as much.
    "Ratings include only games on ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, and FOX Sports 1. Data for other networks are unavailable (e.g., Big Ten Network, Pac-12 Network, Longhorn Network), and this boosts averages for teams playing on those networks since ratings are generally low (e.g., Michigan on the Big 10 Network and Texas on the Longhorn Network).

    Some teams benefit from having a low number of rated games since only their most attractive matchups are picked up by top TV stations (e.g., Northwestern ranked #20 with only 5 rated games due to opponents like Ohio State driving ratings)."
    BYU had 9 rated games. Only 24 other programs had that many games by comparison Utah had 5 rated games with almost half the viewership.
    so BYU technically is top 25 in exposure.
    5 rated games is about the lowest for a power conference team.

  • BeSmart Cheyenne, WY
    Jan. 14, 2014 3:05 p.m.

    This is funny that people argue over numbers but never tell the full story.
    Playing on ESPNU probably hurt the rankings seeing it is not available in nearly as many homes.
    Does anyone know how tv ratings are calculated?
    It is usually a phone survey or a card sent to certain parts of the country. The tv rating system is generally flawed, but does give a good idea.

  • Gone fishin Seattle, WA
    Jan. 14, 2014 3:55 p.m.

    @crow,
    But there are even more LDS who don't give a rip about Utah sports, especially since they joined the pac and are settled in at the bottom in both major sports. Who wants to watch such a poor performance on the field or the court.

    At least they can find a BYU game on TV when thy want. Ever try to find a utah game on tv? Kind of tough.

    Let us know when ESPN signs an 8 year contract with u. I will wait but not hold my breath cause it ain't happening in our lifetime.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 4:20 p.m.

    @draperutefan

    "massive" is a comparable thing. In comparison to a small regional school like utah and its extremely limited reach and appeal then BYU's fanbase, reach, and appeal are massive. I like that utah occasionally has a decent number of fans at away games, but that is not every away game like BYU has. Some of the utah away attendance is skewed because at this point ppac12 membership is still a new thing and people are still excited about it which makes the more likely to travel. But reality is setting in with them and they aren't buying as many pac12 stickers and going to as many games anymore.

    A good case in point is a friend of mine that the first year of pac12 play went to every away game. The next year he went to a couple of them and his year did not attend a single one. He is also talking about not renewing his football season tickets. That IS NOT unique. reality has begun to set in

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 5:37 p.m.

    Duckhunter

    "...He is also talking about not renewing his football season tickets. That IS NOT unique. reality has begun to set in."

    Really Duckhunter? On what do you base that conclusion? A sample of one buddy? For a number of years the renewal rate for season tickets at the University of Utah has exceeded 98%. Will that continue in 2014? I don't know but more important, neither do you. So, until the University of Utah announces those numbers for the current season, I think we can both agree that you have put in print yet another subject about which you know nothing.

    Regarding away games...well...another unsupported Duckhunter theory.

    What is it, exactly, that you are trying to accomplish on these sports boards? Do you really spend every waking moment making up theories to explain the cause and affect of attendance at Utah's sporting events?

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 14, 2014 6:30 p.m.

    @noperspective

    Granted my buddy is a limited sample size but he isn't the only one I know. He may yet renew, he has just talked about not renewing which shows his mindset is different than it was 2 years ago when he was as gung ho as he could be. To be fair I know of BYU fans that ave also talked about not renewing because of their frustration with Bronco and the inability of BYU to break through and have a big season. But that is natural for a fanbase despite your frantic and desperate reply to me. If you actually spent a minute pondering my point you'd know I am correct about this.

    You know the huntsman center used to sell out regularly as well noperspective, but we all know what has happened there over the last decade. You see once the losing became consistent people lost interest, it is a natural occurance and yes it is happening with many utah "fans" right now and you know them as well as I do.

    Try to relax and actually think, it will help that "perspective".

  • FuzzyLogic VACAVILLE, CA
    Jan. 14, 2014 6:39 p.m.

    @ DraperUteFan

    Sorry for the delayed response. You're nearly correct about 14K at the two Ute home games for Oregon and Ore St. it was 13,426 for ORE and 14,044 for ORST...the U's best showing this year. I understand that as the year plays out the overall average attendance will probably favor Utah due to playing in larger arenas. I find it interesting thought that Y fans show up in big numbers for even the "nobodies" like Mount Saint Mary's where 16,481 attended or Colorado Mesa where 16,081 showed up. BYU has a better attendance ratio than Utah so far this year regardless of the opponent. In fact, the lowest attendance ratio games for BYU were against Texas and Wichita State since the games were played in Kansas City. I have to hand it to fans of both schools though because both schools turn out more fans at home than any of their opponents do on their home courts. Maybe that's because other PAC and WCC schools don't really think too much of either BYU or Utah.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 15, 2014 12:28 a.m.

    Uteanymous

    BYU has won FOUR NCAA tournament games since Utah's last tourney win. The Cougars were a national championship contender until they lost their starting center and 2nd best player just before the post-season began.

    ----------

    Nope. On Feb 19th Davis was still playing.

    On Feb 16, 2011 accoridng to Yahoo Sports
    NCAA Tournament 2011: Las Vegas Odds to Win & Picks

    Las Vegas Hilton odds had BYU 75-1.

    "One word gives BYU a shot to make a deep run and a worthy long shot bet, Jimmer. Jimmer Fredette has carried this average team to the NCAA Tournament and now he will be charged with taking them to NCAA Tournament Finals. Can he do it? Most teams will work to hold Fredette off his game and use the semi proven strategy to contain Jimmer. BYU is the best long shot bet on the board to win the NCAA Tournament."

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 15, 2014 12:33 a.m.

    @Uteanymous

    LOL! It's only mid-January and you're already playing the "wait until next year and you'll see" game?

    ---------

    No, I am not. Try reading what I said. Where did I say anything about Utah's performance next year. Utah hasn't proven anything so far, they still have a chance with some real tough games coming up.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 15, 2014 9:04 a.m.

    Uteology

    "Try reading what I said."

    I did.

    @Chamberlain: Sorry according to ESPN TroyTown is wrong. Next year, BYU will have 5 seniors playing significant minutes and Utah will have 3.

    Neither Chamberlain nor TroyTown said anything about next year.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 15, 2014 9:27 a.m.

    @Uteanymous: "The Cougars were a national championship contender until they lost their starting center and 2nd best player just before the post-season began."

    Uteology: "Nope"

    YEP!

    February 28, 2011 - The Wall Street Journal published a summary of the intense discussion by CBS Sports, ESPN Bracketology, Yahoo Sports, and others about whether or not BYU deserved a #1 seed. By definition, a #1 seed is a strong contender for a national championship.

    Brandon DAVIES was suspended on Tuesday, March 2, the same day BYU vaulted to #3 in the ESPN/USA Today and AP polls and a week before the MWC tournament was to begin on March 9.

    Of his suspension, USA Today said: "The team's momentum for a No. 1 seed in the NCAA tournament, and its chances of reaching the Final Four, might go with him [Davies].

    In their first game without Davies on Wednesday, March 3, the Cougars lost at home 82-64 to New Mexico, a team BYU had pushed to the wire in Albuquerque (BYU was only down 68-70 at New Mexico with 4 minutes remaining).

    BYU had beaten #6 San Diego St 80-67 at SDSU on Saturday, February 26.

    BYU was a legitimate national championship contender before they last Davies.

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Jan. 15, 2014 10:19 a.m.

    Uteanymous

    Thanks for setting the record straight.

    Anyone who would argue that the #3-ranked team, with the #1-ranked RPI, and a likely #1 seed in the upcoming NCAA tournament wouldn't be a legitimate national championship contender simply doesn't know anything about the game.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 10:33 a.m.

    Interesting how the injury bug (or the honor code) can affect a team. All we heard was how Utah fans used the injury to Travis Wilson as an excuse for the collapse in the second half of the season. I'm not suggesting Utah would have won considerably more games had Travis not gotten hurt, but it clearly impacted his play and the team's offensive output. I think a healthy Travis Wilson throughout the season would have led to a 7-5 season instead of 5-7, but that is just my opinion.

    Same holds true for BYU and Davies. He didn't play and they didn't make it. Everyone will have an opinion about whether they would have won had he played.

    Being 1 healthy quarterback away from a bowl game doesn't change the fact that BYU fans piled on about Utah not going bowling. I accept Utah's results and the record as the scoreboard displayed. BYU is in the record books as watching the Elite 8 at home on TV in 2010. It is what it is no matter what "might have been."

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Jan. 15, 2014 11:09 a.m.

    DraperUteFan

    Apples-to-oranges comparison

    With 85 scholarship players, including 4 to 6 QBs, good teams prepare for the very real possibility of losing a starting QB to injury at some point during the season.

    Not saying that losing Wilson wasn't a blow to Utah's football prospects, but injuries to starting QBs and other key players are expected. BYU lost both starting CBs before fall practice had concluded and several other defensive backs during the season.

    Basketball teams only have 15 scholarship players and most teams only play an 8- or 9-man rotation, so losing a key player, especially only a week before the beginning of the post season, has a much bigger impact on a basketball team.

    The effect of losing key players is detrimental to both football and basketball teams, but the magnitude of losing a single player is much greater in basketball.

    How far would Utah's 1998 team have gotten without Michael Doleac or Andre Miller? Would Utah's 2005 and 2009 teams have even gotten to the NCAA tournament without Bogut or Nevill?

  • killarney Lincoln Park, IL
    Jan. 15, 2014 11:19 a.m.

    DraperUteFan

    Don't kid yourself. Wilson wasn't playing all that great BEFORE he was injured.

    His BEST game in conference play only drew a 139.0 rating. His other "uninjured" games were 130.4 and 92.7, and those were all home games. Even a healthy Wilson would likely have struggled on the road where the Utes have been abysmal since joining the PAC.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 11:21 a.m.

    Duckhunter
    "If you actually spent a minute pondering my point you'd know I am correct about this."

    You make conjecture and adamantly proclaim that you are right. Do you know the difference between fact and opinion?

    I will ask you again...what is the objective of your posts on these sports boards?

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 11:51 a.m.

    Rockwell, BYU still hasn't recovered from having Riley Nelson take over at QB during the Utah game 3 years ago. 4-6 quarterbacks on the roster doesn't mean they are good QB's. If that were so, the backups in the NFL would be a heck of a lot better than they are.

    Is Taysom Hill is the best of those 4-6 QB's BYU has? Loss of CBs is one thing, QB play wins or loses NCAA titles and Super Bowls.

    When Rodgers went down, that was effectively the end of the Packer's season. Where would New England or Denver be right now without Brady or Manning? Not likely playing in the AFC championship.

    The loss of Davies had a significant impact on BYU, but since injuries, suspensions, or unforeseen circumstances happen in sports, the history books don't have asterisks for injuries.

    It is all relative to the comparison as well. Travis Wilson was as valuable to the Utah football team as Brandon Davies was to BYU basketball, so it is a reasonable apples to apples comparison.

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 11:51 a.m.

    @ Duckhunter actually I pulled the #'s from an article I found just by googling NCAA football viewership 2013. Now if byu did have a national following than you would think their viewership p in 2013 would be listed in the top 25 but they did not come close. It listed the #1 team to the 80th team byu was 57th with a little over 1 million viewers (9 games rated). Now if you look at the programs that have a true National following the top 5 were Alabama, Texas A&M, Michigan, Ohio St, and Auburn all had a viewership of 5 million + byu did not even come close to the top 35 in viewership.

    You also got to look at Utah and byu ranking Utah was only 15 spots behind byu was televised more on regional television and only had 5 of their games rated. byu had 9 games rated was on national tv more and had the #9 team and #23rd team squewing their average. byus ratings would be the sames as Utahs because they do not have a national following as you claim

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 12:06 p.m.

    Kilarney, I didn't say Travis Wilson was great before the injury. In fact, at times with the turnovers he was pretty bad. His offensive line performed very poorly and he was under pressure in many games, plus fumble fingers Dres Anderson gave away close to half the interceptions from bobbled balls. That said, he made enough plays that kept them in games and led to a 4-2 start. BYU fans were complimenting him after the performance against BYU and understandably less than thrilled with Taysom Hill.

    My post didn't say they would be world beaters that would have won 9 games and gone to the Rose Bowl. I said I thought they could have improved their record by two games to 7-5.

    BYU comes on a Utah thread and plays the speculation game of national basketball championships that was still 4 hard wins away even had Brandon Davies played. I make a claim that a healthy TW could have made the difference of two wins in the season. Not an outrageous statement.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 12:55 p.m.

    @myperspective

    "I will ask you again...what is the objective of your posts on these sports boards?"

    Not that I owe you an answer but I am going to answer because it will probably spark some more fun.

    My "objective" is to have fun, enjoy myself, pass some time, be entertained. Exactly the same things that should be your objectives. When I first started coming to these boards a few years ago all I did was ready BYU articles, I never even read an article about utah let alone posted a comment on one. Generally there were dozens of comments on the BYU articles and less than 10 on any utah articles. You can go back a few years and verify that.

    But one of the reasons there were so many comments on BYU articles was because utah "fans" like hedgehog, christina, naval vet, howard s, and a few others posted on every single BYU article and of course all of their posts were derogatory towards BYU and BYU fans. Well I found it was fun to have it out with them so I decided I'd start going to utah articles and return the favor, get some stuff rolling.

    continued

  • DeepBlue Anaheim, CA
    Jan. 15, 2014 1:00 p.m.

    BYU's 2011 basketball team was a much more proven team when Davies was suspended than Utah's 2013 football team was when Hill was injured.

    On March 2nd, when Davies was suspended, BYU was 27-2, ranked #3 in both polls, with an RPI of #1. BYU had eight wins over top-50 RPI teams and three wins over schools ranked in the latest AP poll.

    On October 12th, when Wilson was injured (mind you, he still played three more games), the Utes were 4-2, 1-2 in a conference where the Utes had never won a road game against a PAC 12 foe with a winning record. Four of Utah's six remaining games were on the road and every one of those teams finished the regular season with a winning record.

    Utah was lucky to beat Stanford and unlucky to lose to WSU, but the net result was a wash.

    It's all speculation, but there's much more evidence to show that BYU was a legitimate national championship contender prior to Davies being suspended, than to claim that Utah would have qualified for a bowl if Wilson had remained healthy.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 1:02 p.m.

    So i started to read the utah articles and make some comments on them. Well what do you know but those same utah "fans" that constantly tried to create contention on BYU articles took exception to it when it occured on utah articles. Imagine that.

    That said I like to be smarter than they are, may main purpose is not to simply cause dissention, I like to be correct and truthful as well so I just post things that are correct but that I know utah "fans" will dislike things like pointing out utah is a losing bowless program, or has a losing pac12 record in almost every sport. And of course utah "fans" like yourself do not like to hear that even though it is the absolute truth. You don't want to be reminded of those facts, especially from a BYU fan.

    So you react indignantly and are outraged over it and it is a lot of fun. you'll also notice that now there are as many comments on utah articles as there are on BYU articles. Well that didn't used to be the case. It is now.

    have fun and enjoy yourself, I certainly do.

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 1:05 p.m.

    @FuzzyLogic The reason why byu pulls so much against the sisters of the poor is because their is nothing else to do in Provo but go to a byu basketball game. But you proved our point if byu was such a national following why are all the games on byutv and why are not more going to the game?

    The article is correct Ratings include only games on ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, and FOX Sports 1. Data for other networks are unavailable. So byu played the majority of their games on ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, on CBS and they still could not draw the numbers of the top 25 programs. byus #'s were squewed because of Notre Dame and Texas and 3 of their games were on byutv Utah just had 5 games and still were not that far behind in viewership. Just not the National brand as duckhunter claims

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    Jan. 15, 2014 1:14 p.m.

    On Tuesday night Arizona State revealed plans for the renovation of Sun Devil Stadium. The school has already committed to paying $210 million for renovations, and it has started a public fundraising campaign to raise an additional $50 million in private donations.

    So where are Utah's "plans" for upgrading their little cracker box on the hill?

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 1:19 p.m.

    In short myperspective I am the balance. I am the one that has evened these things out. I am the reason there is as much traffic on utah articles as there is. I am the balance for christina, howrd, hedgehog, naval, and all of the other utah "fans" that inspired me to come here by their presence on BYU articles. if you want to thank/blame someone ofr it then those are your guys. They are the ones that started it all.

    That said I never complain about any of them or their posts, for that matter I never complain about any utah "fans" posts. I have fun with it, I enjoy reading the things they, and all the rest of you, write. Of course most of it is pure ridiculousness, but they are at least interesting and fun. Like I said, relax and have fun. Neither you nor I has anything to do with the BYU or utah programs other than we are fans. That's it. How they perform is not a reflection on us unless we take it personally. I don't, but I do have fun with it.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 2:18 p.m.

    DeepBlue

    "It's all speculation, but there's much more evidence..." Let's evaluate the contradictions of your argument like this statement.

    Do an exercise for a real eye opener...count how many seasons BYU has won 20+ games, then how many times BYU has qualified for the NCAA tournament, then the number of Sweet 16 appearances, then the number of tourney wins after the Sweet 16. If you were to display those numbers as line chart, you could ski down it and set a land speed record.

    The same can be said for Utah and every other college basketball program not named UCLA, Duke, North Carolina, or Kentucky. BYU had to win 4 of the hardest games in the history of the program. They weren't playing San Diego State and New Mexico anymore. The beauty of NCAA basketball, unlike football, is you throw out RPI and rankings. Utah destroyed Arizona in the 98 Elite 8 and were heavy underdogs. Winning games deep into the tournament is hard, but how would anyone at BYU other than Ainge know?

    Wilson wasn't healthy since the 1st quarter of the Arizona game, end of story. His hand looked like it had been processed through a meat grinder.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 2:29 p.m.

    @Phoenix,

    One need only walk into the bathrooms at Sun Devil stadium to realize it is one of the most foul stadiums in existence. But unless you have been there as an ASU fan, you might not know, right? BYU certainly hasn't played there for a long time.

    Having attended the Fiesta Bowl in 2005, I saw firsthand what a dump it was, so it is great they are finally improving it after sending the Fiesta to the newer and much nicer cross town Glendale stadium.

    Utah's stadium is just fine thank you. Great views, recognized as a loud stadium by visiting coaches and fans, and a clean facility. Something I can't say for ASU. Further, ASU has been in the PAC 12 how many years?

  • SportsFan Orem, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 3:25 p.m.

    eating crow

    "the reason why BYU pulls so much against the sisters of the poor is because their is nothing else to do in Provo but go to a BYU basketball game."

    LOL at your ridiculous spin.

    Thousands of fans who attend BYU games come from Salt Lake, Davis and Weber counties, and other locations outside of Utah Valley.

    On the night the BYU men's basketball team was playing LMU in front of 15,187 fans at the Marriott Center, BYU's men's volleyball team was playing #1-ranked Long Beach St in front of 3,000+ fans in the Smith Fieldhouse.

    On that same night, the Religious Art of Carl Bloch, Heinrich Hofmann, and Frans Schwartz was on display at the BYU Museum of Art; the first and probably only time Carl Bloch's paintings have been displayed outside of the Danish Royal Palace in history.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 3:52 p.m.

    @draperutefan

    Well your "ski down it speed record" analogy would also be the case for Butler, and several other teams that have recently been in the final four bt somehow they made it there despite not having done it previously. You see the performance of BYU's team in 2002, 1995, 1989, etc doesn't have anything at all to do with 2010. It was its own team and it had some excellent players and at full strength it was certainly a "contender", it had proven it was a contender. Now that doesn't mean they would have won it, we'll simply never know, but that was a great team that included the national player of the year, they were contenders and not having Davies hurt them.

    Now I would agree that wilson's injury hurt the ute's but I don't think they would necessarily have won any more games, I have my doubts, but we'll never know that either. Which games do you think utah would have won if wilson hadn't been injured? Maybe WSU?

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 4:53 p.m.

    Wilson concussed in the first half of the Arizona State game and was not the same player the second half of that game. Utah was still ahead late in the 4th quarter and it was clear he was wobbly and not all there. Wazzu pounced on newcomer Schulz with two early interceptions and Utah never recovered.

    Utah didn't win...they were 5-7, did not go bowling, and it was not a fun year for those of us who like a break in a warmer climate at a December bowl game. No speculation to the contrary will not change the record book.

    That also applies to BYU basketball in 2010. BYU was a great team that year, no question. IMO, Dave Rose is hands down the best coach at BYU. They've had many good teams but deep runs in the tournament, even with healthy and no suspension teams often ended early because winning games and a national championship in the NCAA tourney is the hardest feat in college sports. BYU fans chalk up 4 wins on a computer as if it was a foregone conclusion because the rankings and RPI said so.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 15, 2014 7:33 p.m.

    @Rockwell

    Huh? Not my words. I quoted and sited the Las Vegas Hilton and Yahoo Sports.

    FYI BYU did not have the #1 RPI according to NCAA, pre-tournament they were #5.

    Source: 2011 NCAA Men's Basketball RPI

    @Uteanymous

    Whats "5 vs 3 seniors next year" have anything to do with wait till "next year" phrase. You do know the common use of that phrase?

    In that WSJ blog Jeff Call and Gary Parrish (CBS Sports) argue for a #1 seed for BYU, the blog clearly says:

    "But thanks to a relatively weak conference schedule, there are plenty of doubters out there who think the seventh-ranked Cougars ... don't deserve to be ranked No. 1 overall -- even considering losses this week by No. 1 Duke, No. 4 Pittsburgh, and No. 5 Texas;and some who believe they shouldn't even get a top seed in the NCAA tournament (They've never been higher than a No. 4 seed)."

    Source:
    Does BYU Deserve a No. 1 NCAA Seed?
    February 28, 2011, 9:47 AM

  • Striker Omaha, NE
    Jan. 15, 2014 9:09 p.m.

    crow eater,
    "The article is correct Ratings include only games on ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, and FOX Sports 1. Data for other networks are unavailable. So byu played the majority of their games on ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, on CBS and they still could not draw the numbers of the top 25 programs. byus #'s were squewed because of Notre Dame and Texas and 3 of their games were on byutv Utah just had 5 games and still were not that far behind in viewership. Just not the National brand as duckhunter claims"

    Funny, you can name all the networks BYU played on but don't mention any of Utah's. I think that itself shows BYU is the national brand you aren't giving it credit for because everyone can name the networks BYU is on, but even fans of other teams can't even name their own networks. By the way, it was NBC, not CBS. #'s are not "squewed" playing Texas and ND. Guess why not? BYU wants to play the big boys and they got it. Don't discredit BYU's success in scheduling, and beating, big boy and big time college programs.

  • DraperUteFan Draper, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 10:12 p.m.

    Sriker,

    A Ute fan names a few instances of BYU on TV to make a point about them having a relatively small national viewership and that is your argument FOR national brand?

    As for "big boys," Texas would normally qualify, but not this year's team. 4 blowout losses. As for the rest, a loss to Wisconsin and Notre Dame (whom the Cougars have a very rough history with), means they are playing a few marquee games and losing quite a few of them.

    When was the last time BYU played the top tier of the PAC 12 (USC, Stanford, Oregon, or ASU)? Has BYU been a regular against the SEC top teams? How about the history against Florida State?

    The Cougars get some wins against big name programs, they have good tradition, national name recognition, and are respected nationally, but it does not mean they are considered a college football juggernaut and big time national program. The elite years belong to Lavell only and have been gone for a long time. The 10-win Bronco seasons now even seem elusive and the losses to marquee programs even more frequent.

  • Down under Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 15, 2014 11:12 p.m.

    Here is a nugget of truth.
    Tonight the same Washington team that just beat the utes scored 17 points in the entire first half of their game. I'm not sure what this says about the utes but it can't be positive. It could be that maybe the utes just had a bad game, like the one BYU had on the hill. Only problem with this is that the utes have a string of these loses so I guess we better look at something else like maybe, just maybe, they just plain and simple are not as good as their cupcake records says they are.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 16, 2014 9:45 a.m.

    Duckhunter
    Thanks for the response. You are honest, I'll give you that.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Jan. 16, 2014 12:04 p.m.

    Duckhunter,
    With byu stuck in the doldrums of independence and the wcc, they are what they are with no where to go and nothing to change so there's not much to comment about under their articles. Have you noticed that if Chris doesn't comment under their articles, hardly anyone else does either?

  • truth in all its forms henderson, NV
    Jan. 16, 2014 3:53 p.m.

    I don't know why everyone hates on Chris B on this site. He is the only one I have seen that writes anything logical on this website.

  • sportsfanforlife salt lake city, UT
    Jan. 16, 2014 8:35 p.m.

    @down under

    or it could be that washington had an off night LOL. the fact that you think utah is better than washington is absolutely laughable. This same washington team just demolished colorado.

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Jan. 16, 2014 9:54 p.m.

    ekute

    Talk about being stuck in the doldrums - see perennial PAC bottom dweller Utah

    4-5, 3-6, 2-7 in football, 0 road wins versus PAC teams with winning records

    3-15, 5-13, 1-3 in basketball, 1-19 on the road

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Jan. 17, 2014 11:55 a.m.

    @ekute

    You're partially right, it is a lot more fun commenting about utah's ineptitude in all sports in the pac12. I'm definately having a good time with it and it is definately getting utah "fans" like yourself wound up and suffering some angst. Fun times for me!