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Letter: Condoning marriage

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  • KJB1 Eugene, OR
    Dec. 29, 2013 12:24 a.m.

    Once same-sex marriage becomes fully legal, the small minority of those who appoint themselves as the Morality Police will have less power over the rest of us. Once people see that the world won't come to an end and that your typical gay person is just an ordinary citizen trying to lead a decent life, they might start to wonder what else they were told that was wrong.

    Are those the "grave detrimental results" he's referring to?

  • Owen Heber City, UT
    Dec. 29, 2013 12:52 a.m.

    If Utah can prove same-sex marriage insidiously dangerous, ruinous or gravely detrimental over time, the state will have a case. So the case for harming anyone consists of crickets chirping.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 29, 2013 1:26 a.m.

    You kinda need a reason to ban same-sex marriage beyond "I think it's a sin and gross". The lack of finding such a reason is why the Amendment 3 defense team failed so miserably.

  • embarrassed Utahn! Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 29, 2013 7:25 a.m.

    People aren't born bigots. You can either teach your children that we are all God's children. Or you can teach them that they're extra special and better than others because of your beliefs.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 29, 2013 8:49 a.m.

    And what are the harms of same-sex marriage that it should not be accepted?

  • EDM Castle Valley, Utah
    Dec. 29, 2013 8:56 a.m.

    There is an insidious danger in condoning religion. One's moral compass can change over time. The progression from rejection, to tolerance, to condoning, to acceptance, to approval and finally embracing most likely will occur.

    Some behaviors seem innocuous at first, but become ruinous over time. This aberration of discrimination will have grave detrimental results. To condone it means to allow it to occur.....A wise judge once said, “This is a violation of the US Constitution.”

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Dec. 29, 2013 9:20 a.m.

    Since when did marriage become something detrimental to society?

    Oh, I get it. It's not so much marriage as it is gay people. Gay people are detrimental to society. Gay married people.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Dec. 29, 2013 10:41 a.m.

    Attitudes towards social behaviours outside the mores of society change because people realise that they've been misled and lied to about them in the past.
    With a week of gay married people in our midst, I'm not seeing the kind of detrimental effects manifest that are going to win an argument to overturn the constitution.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 29, 2013 1:27 p.m.

    'There is an insidious danger in condoning same-sex marriage.' - Letter

    And that is…?

    Because we have examples of what happens after gay marriage is allowed in America. Would you like to see them?

    *'After 5 Years of Legal Gay Marriage, Massachusetts still has the lowest state divorce rate...' - Bruce Wilson - AlterNet - 08/24/09

    *'TEN YEARS later, 85 Percent of Massachusetts voters say NO HARM from Marriage Equality' – 09/27/13

    'Massachusetts now has the lowest divorce rate in the nation…'

    Those who oppose marriage equality have again and again failed to present any real-world consequences to gay marriage. Citing 'it's gonna be bad!' as a reason to deny LGBT Americans the 1,100 rights and legal protections given with marriage.

    Let me be clear:

    No Harm?

    No foul.

    Do not fabricate reasons and try to present them as fact.

    The rest of the world knows what a lie is.

    And Jesus had a few choice words about those who bear 'false witness'.

  • Sal Provo, UT
    Dec. 29, 2013 4:11 p.m.

    From God's viewpoint it's a dangerous lifestyle. When a majority upholds same-sex lifestyles through legislation His Spirit begins to withdraw from the nation. The negative spirit begins to take hold. Natural catastrophes, plagues, crop failures can be counted on in an effort to get people to repent. Hopefully, there are enough people left who not only believe in God but believe him when he says, "Thou shalt not" to prevent the loss of His Spirit over the nation.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Dec. 29, 2013 5:40 p.m.

    Multiplicity only happens in movies. In the real world there is "right" and there is "wrong". Once upon a time, the Deseret News stood for "right", but now they worry about being "politically correct". They worry about what people will think if they choose to follow the owner of this newspaper. They would rather be popular than to do the right thing.

    As children, we played in a make-believe world where we became characters who fascinated us. Today, there are still people who are past that childhood state who tell us that they want to be a man or a woman because that is what they "feel" like being. How very nice. Their unreal world is real only to themselves, but they claim that the 14th Amendment protects their fantasy world and that they have the "right" to force the rest of us to join in and become "players" in their fantasy.

    God gave each of us an identity. That identity is permanent. We cannot change it by pretending that we live in a make-believe world.

    God made no mistakes, but people make mistakes when they tell us that they are correct and that God is wrong.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 29, 2013 5:52 p.m.

    @ Sal: Homosexuality is mentioned approximately six times in the Bible. Loving your neighbor, caring for the poor and less fortunate, the sin of greed - all these are mentioned multiple times. His most important laws are built around these concepts.

    If God decides to send His wrath and destruction, it is more likely to be over something He cared enough to mention frequently and use as a foundation for His laws, than something mentioned a mere six times.

    After all, inspite of modern misrepresentations, the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were greed, selfishness, and a lack of caring for the poor and the stranger.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 29, 2013 6:08 p.m.

    Sal and Mike prove that there is in reality no line between Church and State in their Utah. How people could hold that view today is a tribute to the social/political atmosphere here. One party rule and and a feeling of insularity from the rest of the world contributes to that belief. Sal even brings back early Puritan pastor Jonathan Edwards sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" in his world view. Step over the line and get ready to dodge lightning bolts? You both are "free" to believe anything and everything you choose, you just don't get to use the State to impose those views on the rest of us.

  • Sal Provo, UT
    Dec. 29, 2013 7:18 p.m.

    Kalindra, God speaks through modern prophets today. He has spoken more than six times as to the sin of homosexuality. God stated in the Bible that he would do nothing except through his prophets (Amos 3:7). You can know, too, if God has living prophets on the earth today by asking Him and being willing to live His commandments. Millions of us have done this and know that God still speaks to mankind today through His prophets.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 29, 2013 7:45 p.m.

    @ Sal: Those are your religious beliefs - and you are welcome to have them. But my religious beliefs are different than yours, as are those of the majority of Americans.

    And you can't seriously tell me the primary focus of your religion is anti-homosexuality to the exclusion of God's other Commandments.

    Again, if God decides to bring down His wrath - it will be for neglecting His key principles, which includes having an unhealthy focus on limiting other's rights to believe as they choose.

  • Sal Provo, UT
    Dec. 29, 2013 9:07 p.m.

    Kalindra,
    So majority rules in your belief system unless one judge decides otherwise? I believe all of God's commandments. I show kindness towards gays in voting for civil unions. How does your side show kindness towards the millions with deeply held religious beliefs concerning traditional marriage?

    Grover,
    Your disgust for the citizens of Utah leaves me marveling at how you could fail to note how well run the state is: economically sound, low crime rate, well-educated youths

    We are not so insular as you think. Millions and millions of good Christians world-wide believe in traditional marriage as the safest, healthiest standard for youth to follow.

  • Miss Piggie Phoenix, AZ
    Dec. 29, 2013 9:48 p.m.

    "And what are the harms of same-sex marriage that it should not be accepted?"

    The only harm in same-sex marriage is... the eventual demise of all marriages.

    If same-sex marriage is allowed all other combinations of marriage must soon follow... such as polygamy polygamy, incestuous relations, siblings, father/daughter, mother/son, etc. These can all be loving relationships not unlike homosexuality. At which time marriage will lose its purpose and meaning.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 29, 2013 9:58 p.m.

    @Sal
    " Natural catastrophes, plagues, crop failures can be counted on in an effort to get people to repent."

    Weather doesn't work like that. Unless you think tornadoes are some sort of sign of approval since they strike most frequently in the Bible belt.

    "God speaks through modern prophets today."

    You believe that, but I don't.

    "I show kindness towards gays in voting for civil unions."

    If you did you'd oppose Amendment 3 since that banned civil unions.

    @Mike Richards
    "As children, we played in a make-believe world where we became characters who fascinated us."

    Some still do. The John Galt fans are probably the worst...

  • MercyNLovelie USA, CA
    Dec. 30, 2013 6:10 a.m.

    "And what are the harms of same-sex marriage that it should not be accepted?"

    Denying the significance of mothers and fathers - the fact that both are needed and contribute in different ways - thus weakening the rights of parents.

    Teaching children to devalue gender because the absence of a father or mother is acceptable.

    Having society preach that mothers and fathers are interchangeable; and that thinking otherwise is "bigoted."

    Violating freedom of religion because the refusal to perform LGBT marriages is considered a "violation of civil/human rights."

    Separating marriage from reproduction, thereby extending marriages between siblings and straight friends (with or without an intimate relationship) - because the redefinition is "any two people of consenting age."

    Extending marriage by the same logic to any two people regardless of age (since intimacy in marriage is arbitrary).

    Extending marriage by the same logic to any two people regardless of the number of partners (since consent is given by all involved).

    And finally, destroying the meaning of marriage and the fact that without it, men and women have nothing left to define their symbiotic relationship as sacred instead of just functional.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 30, 2013 6:54 a.m.

    Attitudes about certain social behaviors, outside the mores of a particular society, can change over time. The progression from rejection, to tolerance, to condoning, to acceptance, to approval and finally embracing most likely will occur.

    ====

    Apply what you said to Race, Religion, Age, Gender and see if your opinion still holds true.
    I did, and and it does not.

    Mike, Sal, Miss Piggie --
    If you want to live an a Theocracy run by Biblical Laws -- go live in Iran.

    This is America, and will always defend it.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Dec. 30, 2013 9:00 a.m.

    Let's step back for a minute and remember what we're talking about here. It's very difficult to say exactly what portion of the population is "gay". The primary reason being it's difficult to say what "gay" is. Does it include someone who found a person of the same sex attractive at one time? Someone who made out with someone of the same sex once in college.? Or is it simply someone who identifies themselves as "gay".

    When you use a very broad view of "gay" like the college experience the percentage can be as high as 20%. When you use the strict definition of gay as self identified it shrinks to around 2%.

    What we know is that the "gays" that will marry someone of the same sex are the self identified. So this whole discussion of gay marriage and its consequences is around less than 2% of the population.

    So before we get too apocalyptic here let's remember the scope of all this.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Dec. 30, 2013 9:06 a.m.

    @Sal- Prophets are human, and as such are not infallible.
    (see recent apologies for a major not-doctrine retraction)
    The writings you put so much faith in are Not the words
    of God, but the interpretation of translators under the direction
    of Men who may or may not have been interested in the literal
    or best translation in as much as it agreed with them.

    God wrath is best served on those who believe that God is
    always on the look out to destroy the things he loves to
    make a point.

    I prefer the teachings of your Jesus, who taught love and the universal brotherhood of man.
    I don't believe in the Old Testament god who said Love thy neighbor unless I tell you to kill that neighbor and his children, animals, even his crops because he needed to know the chosen were loyal to him?

    As someone has been saying "Keep Calm, Marry on" Utah.

  • Sven Morgan, UT
    Dec. 30, 2013 9:12 a.m.

    It is truly heartbreaking watching our culture embrace and celebrate a lifestyle that God has called detestable. If we think we can openly mock God without suffering the consequences, we seriously delude ourselves.

    When an activist judge can, with the stroke of their pen, deem the homosexual relationship worthy of being called a marriage, well then, any other perverse relationship (use your imagination) can, and will be deemed a marriage.

    When we forget, and worse, openly mock God, we are ripe for judgment. We celebrate our own destruction as a society. Sad.

  • Sven Morgan, UT
    Dec. 30, 2013 9:28 a.m.

    Happy Valley Heretic said:

    “I prefer the teachings of your Jesus, who taught love and the universal brotherhood of man.
    I don't believe in the Old Testament god who said Love thy neighbor unless I tell you to kill that neighbor and his children, animals, even his crops because he needed to know the chosen were loyal to him?”

    You obviously have no idea what our Lord taught, or what he thought about His Prophets. In response to the religious leaders of the day Jesus said in John 5:46 “If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.” The fact that you disagree with what God’s Prophets have said, does not nullify their words. Your posting name, Happy Valley Heretic, tells me all I need to know about the utter contempt you have for God and His Word.

    A Holy God is not mocked.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 30, 2013 10:01 a.m.

    Sven
    Morgan, UT
    It is truly heartbreaking watching our culture embrace and celebrate a lifestyle that God has called detestable. When an activist judge can, with the stroke of their pen,

    ============

    Talk about "judicial activism"...
    You are the one's who keep bringing God into the Court room!

    ironically and hypocritically enough,
    You are the same one's thumping your chests and making wr with Muslims for doing the same thing in their countries!

    BTW - the only one's mocking God are those who seek to take away the Agency of Man.

  • J in AZ San Tan Valley, AZ
    Dec. 30, 2013 10:26 a.m.

    Once again we go the rounds on a moral issue. When are you going to learn that you can't communicate with each other because you are not operating from the same context on what is moral and what is not. To understand why same-sex marriage is wrong, you must accept that homosexual sexual activity is sinful. That is the fundamental basis of the discussion. If you don't accept that, there's nothing to talk about. With respect to the Constitution, Jon Adams wrote "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." (Letter to the Officers of the First Brigade of the Third Division of the Militia of Massachusetts, 11 October 1798, in Revolutionary Services and Civil Life of General William Hull (New York, 1848), pp 265-6.)But, as I have told students in critical thinking classes, the Law is the lowest common denominator of human behavior. Many things that a person may consider to be immoral are legal because of judges and legislatures who are falling short of Adam's standard.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Dec. 30, 2013 11:59 a.m.

    No contempt for God, plenty of contempt for religion hence "Heretic" because none of you religious folks can even agree with each other. So nope, I put no faith in manmade religions. (and they all are.)

    Using a scripture to back up your religious beliefs, thats novel, but it has no bearing in a republic like America.
    Don't get me wrong you are free to worship and believe as you like and I would defend that right with my life.
    You are not free to use our country to legislate laws based on your religious views.

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Dec. 30, 2013 12:33 p.m.

    It is funny. The gay activists and their supporters keep saying "what is the harm". We know what the harm is, but you will ignor it.

    The harm does not come to families directly. The harm comes to society.

    For example. Massachussetts was the first to enact gay marriage laws. They now have one of the lowest marriage rates in the US. The same can be said for other nations that have also done the same thing. You may be asking, why does that matter. If you are, then you are forgetting the fact that when women have children out of wedlock that they are more likely to be poor and raise their children in poverty. The greater the poverty in a nation, the slower it can grow and the greater the burden will be on government services to care for the poor, which also drains the economy more.

    So, the problem is that ultimately gay marriage is one of many tools being used to destroy the family unit, and will lead to economic problems in the future.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Dec. 30, 2013 12:50 p.m.

    J in AZ

    "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." Yet it is what we have religious or not.

    I seriously doubt that you are excusing those of us who are not religious from fidelity to the constitution, and that's the issue in this case.

    Pat Tillman a self declared atheist gave up his lucrative NFL career and his life to follow his conscience and his heart/morals into Afghanistan so I hope you are not insinuating that his sacrifice was a fools errand because the constitution was not meant for him. I suspect you are though by your last sentence where you say that if a judge only upholds a legal standard and rules against a biblical/religious standard they have violated Adams standard and thus the spirit and intent of the constitution.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 30, 2013 1:06 p.m.

    Sven no one is mocking God. They are mocking you and your personal vision of whatever belief you hold. I have been interested in religion my entire life and I am aware of no organized group, synod, or sect that shares your world view. To say that there is justice in the entire scheme of things is indeed a Christian view. However to claim that God "responds" to our "provocations" with punishments in the here and now is not a common belief. Only Pat Robertson and perhaps Jerry Falwell ever suggested immediate retribution and even in those cases they were spoken in fervor and restated and softened soon after.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 30, 2013 3:38 p.m.

    @RedshirtCalTech
    "They now have one of the lowest marriage rates in the US. "

    They also have the lowest divorce rate in the US. Both of these things were true before same-sex marriage.

    "If you are, then you are forgetting the fact that when women have children out of wedlock that they are more likely to be poor and raise their children in poverty."

    You're forgetting that Massachusetts has one of the lowest birth rates period. When you look it up specifically, Massachusetts is one of the states with the lowest rates of out of wedlock birth (Utah is lowest, Mississippi highest).

    "have children out of wedlock that they are more likely to be poor and raise their children in poverty. The greater the poverty in a nation, the slower it can grow"

    Massachusetts is 2nd wealthiest in the nation (recently passed by Maryland). Again, Mississippi is poorest (and most obese, std riddled, highest infant mortality...), so you're drawing the right correlation between poverty and out of wedlock births, it just doesn't apply at all to this same-sex marriage stuff.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 30, 2013 3:54 p.m.

    Sal: Sorry I missed your response earlier. What "millions and millions of good Christians world wide" believe does not speak to an issue of Constitutional rights in America...because they believe something does not mean it is right or legal. The State having "well educated youth" must also be in comparison to some other yardstick than anyone but Utahs (especially those in the legislature) use. Being 35th in the nation in graduation rates seems to fly in the face of your assertion. The State is well run and sound financially at the cost of starving its education system to get back at teacher unions for their voting patterns. Also you forgot to mention the good clean mountain air we all breathe as a calling card for businesses to move here.

  • Badgerbadger Murray, UT
    Dec. 30, 2013 10:20 p.m.

    LDS Liberal says, "If you want to live an a Theocracy run by Biblical Laws -- go live in Iran."

    Uh, really??? Muslims don't live by the Bible. Their book is called the Koran. It is different.

    You should consider that your political beliefs are equally flawed.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 31, 2013 7:23 a.m.

    Badgerbadger
    Murray, UT
    LDS Liberal says, "If you want to live an a Theocracy run by Biblical Laws -- go live in Iran."

    Uh, really??? Muslims don't live by the Bible. Their book is called the Koran. It is different.

    You should consider that your political beliefs are equally flawed.

    10:20 p.m. Dec. 30, 2013

    ==========

    Um really?-- Yes, they do.
    And the Bible --
    The Koran specifically referces to the Bible as being the word of God,
    AND the Koran.

    Just like Latter-Day Saints use the Bible AND the Book of Mormon, D&C, & PoGP.

    You should consider that your religous, historical and current political beliefs are equally flawed.

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Dec. 31, 2013 7:38 a.m.

    To "Schnee" yes, they have the lowest divorce rate, but that is because they have the LOWEST MARRIAGE RATE. Assuming that the population of the state is relatively static, even if they had 100% of all marriages there end in divorce every year, they could never have the highest divorce rate. Since you obviously know nothing of statistics, you should look at how they measure marriage rates. They are counted in marriages per 1000 people, not in percent of the population. However, if you look at the ratio of divorces to marriages, you find that Massachussets is average on that front.

    However, that is just a side track. The point is that throughout the world when gay marriage is adopted, the marriage rates continue to drop. As marriage rates drop, you increase the number of children born out of wedlock, and the number of single mothers. The more single mothers you have, the more you have living in poverty. The higher the poverty rate, the more government services are used to aid them. The more government services are used, the more everybody else is taxed. The higher the taxes, the lower the economic growth.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Dec. 31, 2013 7:57 a.m.

    Sodom and Gomorrah condoned same sex marriage and look where it got them. Probably not a good social pattern to follow I would say.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Dec. 31, 2013 11:00 a.m.

    @Badgerbadger
    Murray, UT
    LDS Liberal says, "If you want to live an a Theocracy run by Biblical Laws -- go live in Iran."

    Uh, really??? Muslims don't live by the Bible. Their book is called the Koran. It is different.

    You should consider that your political beliefs are equally flawed.

    10:20 p.m. Dec. 30, 2013

    ==========

    Uh, really? Yes they do.
    You should read more, and listen to talk radio less.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Dec. 31, 2013 1:50 p.m.

    patriot
    Cedar Hills, UT
    Sodom and Gomorrah condoned same sex marriage and look where it got them. Probably not a good social pattern to follow I would say.

    7:57 a.m. Dec. 31, 2013

    ==========

    Um, no - it wasn't.
    That has got to be one of the most mis-quoted and mis-interpreted scriptures in the Bible.

    Here's why they were destroyed....

    Ezekiel 16:
    49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom,
    pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters,
    neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

    BTW -- Just so happens to be the very same reason the Jaradites and Nephites were destroyed as well.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Jan. 2, 2014 7:45 a.m.

    To "Open Minded Mormon" lets look at which political philosophy is most like the description in that scripture.

    You have conservatives that want people to work (not be idle) for what they receive. They want jobs for the poor, so that the poor can improve their situation.

    You have liberals/progressives that want to give you everything from food to healthcare regardless of your desire to work. Since liberals began their war on poverty we have INCREASED in the number of idle people who receive money for simply having more babies. The poor and needy are not helped out of their situation, but are passified into remaining in their situation.

    If you want to fix things, give up liberalism.