the state should let everyone who wants a memorial to have one there. it
shouldn't matter if the memorial is christian or not.
Or... the state should not allow any religious memorials. But no
matter how you interpret the constitution, it's either all or nothing -
allowing some and not allowing others clearly violates the 1st amendment.
Belief is only what you can count on or depend on. I pledge my allegiance to the
flag, of the United states of America and to the republic for which it stands.
One Nation under God Indivisible, with Liberty and Justest for all.
@ truth in all its forms : This country was founded on Christian
principles. The ten commandments play an important role in our history. This
country was not founded by satanists or hindus. While they may enjoy the
priviledge in their freedom to worship what they want, they should not be
allowed to put monuments in front of government buildings. Their ideals had
nothing to do with the creation of those government buildings. Your
name implies that you believe that there is more than one way to the truth. I
can assure you, there is not. Jesus Christ is the only way and truth. May God
bless you on your journey through life. I will be praying for you to see the
Light(Jesus Christ) before it is too late.
It's hard to imagine they didn't see this coming. In the all or
nothing world of religion, Oklahoma opted for one, but is going to get all.
It's going to be a long, painful process to get back to where they should
have stayed to begin with.
Dragonord, the founding fathers specifically intended that there not be an
official state religion. Evangelical style protestant Christianity is not the
official national religion that enjoys dominion over and government enforced
superiority over all others. Either all relgions have the right to place
monumnents, or none do. This is the reason for separation of church and state,
so that centuries of battling between Catholics and Prostestants and persecution
of non Christians in Europe would not carry over and cause the endless violence
and upheaval in peoples' lives in this new nation where everyone would be
free to practice their religion without governmental interference or fear of
trial, execution, harassment etc.
The Satanic Temple - "It promised that the monument would be
'public-friendly' and something children could play on."Uh oh, now I'm curious what part of Satanic worship is
'public-friendly' and something children could play on? Is that
satanic children or all children? It says they could play on it, but
doesn't say it would be safe for children to play on! Is this like a
phallic symbol with horns or maybe there are ten commandments of Satan?My, my, what a can of worms Oklahoma has opened!
@ Cedarite: Where in my post did you read that I stated there was
an official state religion. However, knowledge of the Bible and the ten
commandments did inform the drafters on their writing of the constitution,
including the bill of rights. As a way to honor the influence of the Christian
mindest, certain monuments, such as the ten commandments, should be allowed. The
Greek style of democracy also played a role, and I see no problems with
monuments honoring that influence.
@ Cedarite: 'Separation of Church and State' does not
exist in the constitution. Have you read President Jefferson's letter to
the Danbury Baptist Association? That topic was about Jefferson's belief
that the wall would protect religion from the state. However, we have seen
recently the attack on Christianity by the government. Using your theory,
christmas trees and lights should also be banned. From wikipedia:
"Many modern Christmas customs have been directly influenced by such
festivals, including gift-giving and merrymaking from the Roman Saturnalia,
greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year, and Yule logs and various
foods from Germanic feasts."
Interesting fact: Every case that has been decided in favor of 10 Commandment
monuments, has been decided on the premise that the 10 Commandments are not
religious in nature but are merely historical laws.Additionally, all
the cases allowing the display of the 10 Commandments have stated that
acknowledging the religious nature of the 10 Commandments while at the same time
prohibiting other religious displays - regardless of how many people support
those other religious displays - is a clear violation of the First Amendment.In order for Oklahoma to prevail in this, they will either have to deny
any sacredness to the 10 Commandments and claim them as secular, or they will
have to allow other religions the opportunity to display their monuments.Perhaps the Oklahoma legislators should actually read the cases they are
Earlier this week, a Festivus Pole was erected at the Florida State Capitol.
Festivus, a "religious" holiday created by a television show, gets
recognition because Christians insisted on placing a nativity scene on state
grounds.I suspect the good people of Oklahoma will relocate this
monument rather than allow monuments to Satanism, Hinduism, and now Festivism.
@Dragonlord67jg – “This country was founded on Christian
principles.”The country was populated by a majority of
Christians at the founding, true, but it was not founded on Christian
principles.Rather it was founded on a combination of ideas ranging
from Greek democracy, Roman Republicanism and the philosophical ideas sprung
from the Enlightenment.
@Dragonlord"The ten commandments play an important role in our
history. This country was not founded by satanists or hindus. While they may
enjoy the priviledge in their freedom to worship what they want, they should not
be allowed to put monuments in front of government buildings. Their ideals had
nothing to do with the creation of those government buildings. "So there is a state religion. That's the only way you can say that only
one particular faith should have monuments in front of gov't buildings.
Religious monuments are not without precedent in our public buildings, including
parts of many of the monuments in Washington, D.C., like the Library of
Congress, the Washington Monument, the Lincoln Memorial, and the Jefferson
Memorial. Many of the references go beyond a general theism to being overtly
Judeo-Christian in content.It is interesting that the same fathers
who shaped our Constitution did not find references like these to be
inconsistent with the first amendment-- especially not Thomas Jefferson, the one
who penned the famed (and misinterpreted) words, "separation of church and
state," and who wasn't even in the country when the Bill of Rights were
written. He explicitly disavowed any involvement in its composition. His
monument says, "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just,
that his justice cannot sleep forever."What is really puzzling
here is how a simple historical monument constitutes a violation of the
establishment clause, especially one dedicated to a law system that contributed
greatly to the formation of western society. When Hinduism can show how their
gods have significantly contributed to western history, then maybe we can throw
a monument up for them.
Isn't "Satan" essentially a Judeo-Christian construct (or at least
Abrahamaic)? So Satanism can really be considered just another Christian
denomination, albeit one with a decidedly different take on things. So the
criticism that a monument to Satan isn't Christian strikes me as
inaccurate. It's Christian, just not the "right" Christian.As spring street pointed out, the key point is that Oklahoma will either
have to completely secularize the 10 commandments or admit representations of
all other faiths. Neither option is a good one for the evangelicals. Rocks and
brokenclayThat parts of many of the monuments in Washington, DC had
religious influences does not justify continuing to breach the wall of
separation today. After all, Jefferson owned and had adulterous relations with
slaves. That would be a poor argument for continuing slavery and adultery today,
right?Religious hegemony built up by Christian Dominionists must end
in order for democracy and peace to prevail. By their own confessions, There is
no compromise with religious zealotry.
So, Oklahoma doesn't have the money to build storm shelters for school
children, but they have money for this?
Let everyone put up their monuments. We live in a pluralistic society and should
let everyone put up monuments. People can chose to not look at what they
don't like. Monuments hurt no one.