Mr Gore is still around.And his logic and information concerning
"CLIMATE" trumps your snarky remark about "WEATHER"
I am astonished. Why does the DN print letters like this?First, Al
Gore said nothing of the kind. Mr. Haynes has distorted the man's
message.Second, Global Warming models have never predicted a sustained and
consistent raising of temperatures everywhere on earth. There is a difference
between climate and weather.Doesn't everyone know this?
There's a serious breakdown of communication going on here and I'm
afraid Deseret News is perpetuating it.
When a dear family member had terminal cancer there were good weeks and bad
weeks. But each good week was a little worse than the last. Each bad week a
bit worse as well. Finally that person died of cancer. The individual weeks
made it hard to see the entire trend (and gave us some amount of false hope).
But the overall trend was clear when seen in full (and with some dispassion).Many trend lines have a saw tooth type shape. One (or even two or
three) cold winters or mild summers do not change that significantly. Further,
you have to look at the entirety (not just your winter or summer but around the
The big news from Antarctica these days is the record low temperature of -135.8
degrees Fahrenheit, which is the coldest temperature ever recorded on the
planet. What seems to be going unreported, is that on top of the record cold in
Antarctica, the southern ice sheet is growing at a pace faster than Global
Warming theories can account for. Sea ice around the Antarctic averaged 17.16
million square kilometers (6.63 million square miles) in November. The long-term
1981 to 2010 average for November is 16.30 million square kilometers (6.29
million square miles). The arguments from the Climate Change camp all seem to be
“no matter what happens, it is still evidence of Global Warming.”
Someone else who doesn't understand the difference between weather and
climate.Just because you're freezing your buns off doesn't
change the facts that 1) Artic ice is melting at an unbelievable rate. 2) The
oceans are warmer and rising as a result of a) warmer water & b) more of it
from melted ice. 3) Weather events are more extreme than usual.All
of which is predicted by the climate models.
Don't worry. Al Gore is probably trying to organize a summit meeting on
global warming up in Minnesota right now.
"He promised that, if we allowed coal-burning power plants to dump carbon
dioxide into the air, we would never be cold again."I'm not
sure what value a letter has when it begins with such a ridiculous strawman of
He is smart enough to stay out of the dangerously polluted Salt lake Valley.
@Semi-Strong "But the overall trend was clear when seen in full (and with
some dispassion)."Correct! In the spirit of this statement, I
would encourage everyone to look at the 3,000 year proxy record, and note that
our global average temperature for last year is *below* the median temperature
for that time period. A little perspective is all we need. We are still
recovering from the Little Ice Age. We could use a little warming. Civilization
flourished during the Medieval Warm Period.@Ninutsu "There is a
difference between climate and weather."Yes. I think the rule
is, if it validates my preconception, it's climate. If it validates the
other guy's preconception, it's weather.
Thid Barker, polar ices are measured both in terms of their surface area and
their thickness. Depth is as important as area.The "new"
Antarctic sea ice is exceptionally thin, indicating that while freezing
temperatures can occur in the atmosphere, ground and ocean temperatures are
above normal. Nothing you're saying provides any valid evidence to support
the idea that global warming isn't happening.
"Yes. I think the rule is, if it validates my preconception, it's
climate. If it validates the other guy's preconception, it's
weather."No, but if a hot/cold day or a hot/cold month or even a
hot/cold year constitutes Weather. A hot/cold decade is indicative of climate.
And that holds true regardless of ones "preconception"
@ Blue. Nothing will ever convince you that man made climate change is a hoax,
not even world record cold temperatures of -138.8 degrees. Doesn't that
seem contradictory to you even when others are describing a planet, we are told,
is warming up and all the ice on the planet will melt! Believe what you want but
in 10, 20 years when the earth is still not warming, what new environmental hoax
will you embrace? Someone looking to make a quick buck will come up with it and
as PT Barnum said, "There is another sucker born every minute". The key
to recognizing hoaxes is simple: follow the money and see who's pocket it
Just for the record - from the National Snow and Ice Date Center...."On September 16, Arctic sea ice appeared to have reached its minimum
extent for the year of 3.41 million square kilometers (1.32 million square
miles). This is the lowest seasonal minimum extent in the satellite record since
1979 and reinforces the long-term downward trend in Arctic ice extent.""The September 2012 minimum was in turn 3.29 million square
kilometers (1.27 million square miles) below the 1979 to 2000 average minimum,
representing an area nearly twice the size of the state of Alaska. This
year’s minimum is 18% below 2007 and 49% below the 1979 to 2000
average.""Overall there was a loss of 11.83 million square
kilometers (4.57 million square miles) of ice since the maximum extent occurred
on March 20, 2012, which is the largest summer ice extent loss in the satellite
record, more than one million square kilometers greater than in any previous
year."The 2013 levels bounced back some. The fact that there is
now a navigable northern passage in summer months is remarkable. This has huge
impacts on my industry, something we watch closely.
Like I said yesterday on a similar topic. Whether the climate in any given year
has more heat, more cold, more hurricanes and toronados, less heat, less cold,
less hurricanes and tornados, more ice melting, less ice melting, more wind,
less wind, longer summers, shorter summers, longer winters, shorter winters,
longer spring, shorter spring, longer fall, shorter fall, more solar and lunar
eclipises, less solar and lunar eclipises, more birds singing, less birds
singing. More pot smoking, less pot smoking, more Oscars to Meryl Streep, more
touchdown passes from Payton Manning, more chokes by Ohio State football, (yes I
really liked that one) ect. ect. ect. It will all be blamed on Global Warming.
Who could prove different?
"we would never be cold again."There's been around 2F
of warming the past 100 years in this part of the world. Why would it never get
cold again? The cold temperatures we set in Salt Lake were still 5+ degrees
above the record lows. If you look at December record lows for Salt Lake none of
them were set more recently than 1992.@Thid Barker"The big
news from Antarctica these days is the record low temperature of -135.8 degrees
Fahrenheit, which is the coldest temperature ever recorded on the
planet."At a location that has no long-term temperature record
to speak of. It could get that cold in that location more often the past century
and we just didn't know about it until recently due to lack of
observations." Doesn't that seem contradictory to you even
when others are describing a planet, we are told, is warming up and all the ice
on the planet will melt!"Why do you trust that one measurement
and not the other hundreds and thousands of measurements that make up our global
This letter writer is totally uninformed. 5 minutes examining the NASA website
on climate would give him the information he needs to turn his head around 180
@Thid Barker"The key to recognizing hoaxes is simple: follow the money
and see who's pocket it goes too!"The fastest way to get
money for climate scientists IF there were a hoax would be to expose it. The oil
company money (speaking of following money...) and right-wing radio promotion of
a book you write would make you rather wealthy. The fastest way for
a climate scientist to get money in the normal realm of thinking is to be
accurate in your research that finds new results. The scale of the hoax you
suggest involves so many people it's just not practical or realistic.
First, there is no debate over the fact they global climate change is occurring.
The only debate is whether or not it is human caused or naturally occurring.
Scientists have the same level of certainty that global climate change is human
caused as they have that cigarette smoking causes lung cancer. The number who
disagree with this is roughly the same number as still believe the world is flat
and the moon landing was faked. @ Thid Barker: Instead of just
reading and repeating the very edited talking points, you should take the time
to read and understand the actual scientific papers on that really cold
temperature and the ice sheets. The reality is actually quite different from
the denial talking points. @ Nate: It is not what point of view it
supports, but who is providing the data and interpretation. There is a valid
reason why podiatrists don't perform brain surgery, and there are valid
reasons why rocket scientists are different than climate scientists.
This letter and numerous poster have provided me with my allotment of humor for
the day. Thanks for the satire.
@Nate – “A little perspective is all we need. We are still
recovering from the Little Ice Age. We could use a little warming”Glad to see you acknowledge that we (people) are helping this warming
process along, although I’m skeptical of your faith in our ability to get
it right (i.e., just how much do we turn up the heat on the stove?).Maybe, just maybe Nature (God?) might be a better cook than us…As for the letter I would have considered it a joke as well but when I listen
to the verbal dysentery spewed on AM radio day after day I think it’s very
likely the letter was in earnest.
Maybe the letter writer needs to watch The Day After Tomorrow. lol
The major climate models predict higher temperatures globally and more violent
tropical storms - and it is happening. Just a little over a year ago a violent
TROPICAL storm found its way to Colorado - remember that 12" rainfall. It
could have been us, easily.
NASA's Earth Observatory program just today issued this press release:
"Arctic Waters Keep Warming in 2013" detailing new research into the
extent of polar ocean warming.Google it.
The letter writer clearly does not understand the difference between climate and
Algore is likely out quietly enjoying the millions he made, off his foolish
minions and followers, as the acting hypocrite spokesman/mouthpiece for the hoax
everyone calls global warming or climate change. If I had scammed so many people
into paying for my phony cause, I would be laying low also. However he could be
spending all his time secretly inventing a replacement for the internet!
What I find most humorous is this letter is coming in the middle of nasty
inversion trapping the pollutants and cold air in the valley. If you are to
cold might I suggest you get up in the mountains (typically much colder then the
valleys and visit park city.
Every time we get a cold spell the deniers come out of the closet. One frigid
week in one locale debunks a century of the average temperature worldwide
rising? "Think locally, act globally?"
The Great global warming hoax. If you don't believe it, you must be
uninformed. If you believe any of the scientific evidence that is contrary to
Global warming theory, you must be an ignoramus. Mr.Gore's predictions
haven't come true. Period.
When I was in elementary school they told us we were headed for another ice age.
Now it appears its trying to come upon us, however lucky for us, we have put
some carbon dioxide in the air and that will soften the blow, (one can only
hope).Actually I was looking forward to a warmer earth. The balmier
temperatures and the increased carbon dioxide are said to help increase crop
growth, and also I hate winters, I really should move south.
Since Saint Al of Gore makes millions/billions of dollars with this stuff, I
choose to ignore him. Al Gore does what is good for Al Gore. He chases
the dollar. Isn't that obvious?
Snow in Egypt since 100 years ago... Snow in Israel for the first time ever?Al Gore, please come forward and explain yourself.
@Tyler D "Glad to see you acknowledge that we (people) are helping this
warming process along...."And where do you think I said that?
Welcoming warmth and causing it are two different things.@UtahBlueDevil "The 2013 levels bounced back some."I'll say. Highest in five years. I see why you chose to talk about 2012
instead.@Kalindra "It is not what point of view it supports, but
who is providing the data and interpretation."That's not
the way it works around here. When a big storm hits New York, we blame it on
global warming. Never mind facts and history with regard to the frequency of
hurricanes. It's how we roll.
RE: wrz "Snow in Egypt since 100 years ago... Snow in Israel for the first
time ever?" I very much doubt the second statement. It snows like crazy in
Syria. The climate on the macro level is getting warmer steadily - melting
glaciers, Greenland ice cap melting, Alaskan permafrost melting. Good grief!
How much evidence do you need?
How will Global Warming...er, Climate Change believers dig themselves out of
their ignorant past when all of this is glaringly proven false? Its
called "Weather" people.In the 70's the fear was global
cooling. Now its global warming and climate change.Whatever.
It's all an effort to control money and people's lives.Get
Check out the documentary "Chasing Ice".
In utah, climate change is like gun violence. If it didn't happen in your
back yard today, it's not happening at all.
@JoeBlow "A hot/cold decade is indicative of climate."No,
no. That's how it used to be. Then we went 16 years without any warming. So
now it's only weather. The alarmists said so.
@marxist:"Snow in Egypt since 100 years ago..."According to Drudge. Also, Huffington Post. Look it up. You have Google
don't you?"'Snow in Israel for the first time
ever?' I very much doubt the second statement."OK.
It's: 'weather forecaster on public radio described the storm as
'historic.''"Greenland ice cap melting, Alaskan
permafrost melting."Antarctic snow pack is growing. Record low
recorded there. Try 135.8 degrees Fahrenheit below zero. Look it up. You have
Google don't you?"Good grief! How much evidence do you
need?"Evidence of what? Cooling?
@ranchhandDon't you know they filmed that on the same sound
stage as Bigfoot landing on the moon and declaring the world round when we all
know its flat.
@Bubble; But they'll believe in some being that nobody has ever
(verifiably) seen. They'll just take the word of anybody who seems
WRZ…. you are way over simplifying what is going on. As arctic ice
melts, it cools the average temp of the ocean. That has the effect of altering
currents and jet streams. Those changes mean that you have extremes in all
directions. Pointing to one data point here, or another there, proves nothing.
It is taking the sum total of these that makes up the full story.Anecdotally, we were working with one of the largest oil companies on some new
exploratory wells in the Alaska tundra. We had to abort the pad because the
permafrost had thawed more than usual and the ground would not support the
weight of the rig. Same year, a open sea rig had to be pulled early because
that same year the ice came in earlier as well. Both events, one pointing to
aberrant cooling, another pointing to an unusual thaw. Both just a couple
hundred miles from each other.Don't take these data points by
them selves. People who have no idea what they really mean are publishing
trying to prove things without knowing that a warmer planet can also lead to
@Nate – “And where do you think I said that? Welcoming warmth and
causing it are two different things.” You’re
right… I stand corrected. I was confusing you with 97% of all
climate scientists. And considering the margin of error (3%) is about the same
as polled people who still believe Elvis is alive – and that based on some
of your past (intelligent) comments I didn’t peg you for an Elvis-is-alive
type guy – I hope you’ll understand and forgive my error.
I have only one proposal for each side, Show me the proof! As soon as either
side truly can, then we can have a real debate. And don't use a con census
of scientists, science and truth is not by concensus, they just are.
Hey folks, check out the weather (climate) forecast for the NE. More bitter cold
weather (climate change) headed your way!
@Tyler D "I was confusing you with 97% of all climate scientists."Don't ever do that. That figure exists only in John Cook's
imagination. His study has been debunked so many times, it's a surprise
anyone still cites him without embarrassment.Dr. Richard Tol
arguably did the best job of destroying this myth. A curious individual could
start with him. For those who don't read much, a brief quote:"I think your sampling strategy is a load of nonsense."
Yes, truth and reality are what they are, high school. But, see, the question is
is how do you determine what truth, or reality, is? Gut feelings? Hunches? What
some guy on talk radio tells you? A chain email you received? What you read
here? You ask for someone to show you the proof. I'm curious.
Do you think someone is going to deliver that proof to you personally? Come to
your house and lay it all out for just you? I'd be surprised if
that happens.No. It might take some effort on your part. Go research
the science. It might take a while. You will have to put in effort. Go right to
the original studies. Read the science behind the theories. Read the writings of
people that actually work in the field. And read a wide range of these writings.
And indeed, read from legitimate sources on both sides of the argument. And then
read the counter arguments. Educate yourself. It might take awhile.
Even more then one or two evenings. Some people dedicate their entire lives to
it. But you can do it. Don't accept ignorance.
@wrz'weather forecaster on public radio described the storm as
'historic.''Largest December snowfall since 1954 (up
to 3ft)."Antarctic snow pack is growing. Record low recorded
there. Try 135.8 degrees Fahrenheit below zero. Look it up"Actually, in locations where the temperature doesn't get above 0F during
the year, a growing snowpack can be a sign of warming since warmer temperatures
lead to more water vapor and more precipitation (since it doesn't get warm
enough to melt it, sure there's sublimation but that only does so much).
This is not the case in locations where temperatures do get above 0F since that
runs into increased melting and some of that snow falling as rain instead.As for the -135.8F, that's a location that's barely been
monitored, it might've been colder than that the past century, we just
wouldn't know about it. Regardless, when making a point about global
climate, one should be looking at the entire set of data rather than one point
@high school fanI'd recommend the IPCC 5th Assessment Report: Summary
for Policymakers or at least just look at the figures in it since even the
"summary" is rather long.
Incredible dishonesty from the author and from DN for posting such a ridiculous
letter. Both should be ashamed.Every winter conservatives snark that
it's cold so there is no problem with changing the atmosphere composition.
What do you think it does to change the atmosphere by adding CO2? It's
going to do SOMETHING.I may as well say, "where is George Bush?
he promised we would never have to worry about terrorism again." Pffff!
Please get a tatoo that says you don't believe in global warming. I just
think your grandchildren should know who to slap.
You mean Dr. Tol the economist? I suppose next you’ll ask us
to review the latest findings from Dr. Such and Such the podiatrist, who likes
to write papers (in between curing athletes foot) about monetary policy…
forgive my skepticism.To be fair Dr. Tol may have something to say
about the best (market friendly) policies to address climate change, but as an
authority weighing in on whether or not AGW is a fact, I think we can dismiss
that nonsense out of hand.No, I was talking about the survey that
found in over 12,000 peer-reviewed papers by climate scientists only 3% (again,
an Elvis-is-alive margin of error) explicitly rejected AGW. While it’s
true that the Cook study was flawed in the sense that some among the other 97%
still had questions (as all good science does), none of those 97% reject the
hypothesis. When that trend begins to reverse in a significant way
then I (and likely many others) will alter our views, but I’ll wait for
the science (rather than a guy pontificating on demand elasticity) to inform me
on this one.
Sure, there is man made global warming and if frogs had wings, they
wouldn't keep bumping their bottoms when they hop. We have a consensus of
scientists that agree about the frogs and all their computer models show it as
Tyler D,Very nice.
MarkNo I am not looking for someone to present me the reality but to
present to all of us. You ask me to read, to study, to talk to knowledgeable
people, I have done those things over the years and I have formed my opinion
which is this, we do not have a clue what is going on as to whether it is good
or it is bad or that any of it matters at all.Of course things change but
we do not know if the change is what was meant to be. And so far I still have
no proof just hypothesis. I also believe that we should be wise but we should
also be careful that we don't overreact either way.As I said, as soon
as either side can present proof on the national stage, we can then have the
"First, Al Gore said nothing of the kind. Mr. Haynes has distorted the
man's message.Second, Global Warming models have never predicted a
sustained and consistent raising of temperatures everywhere on earth. There is a
difference between climate and weather."I agree that there is a
difference between weather and climate and that the climate is changing.The letter writer has used the same bad logic that Al Gore used once
when, in the middle of a summer heat wave, he said that we only need to feel the
temperature to see that there is a problem.Both Al Gore and the
letter-writer are making the same dumb error.
What a shame...Not 1 single global warming denier remembers we JUST
had the HOTTEST summer ever recorded!Right here, where they witnessed some
it for themselves.Like Gold-fish - can only remember what they heard
on their radios this morning.
The earth goes through cycles. Many factors affect these cycles. The sun most
of all. Then there's those pesky volcanos. I wonder how much C02 that he
volcanos on the big island of Hawaii spew out? Not to mention the one in
Mexico, the Philippines, and others. How about earthquakes and how they change
the earth. Does something happen there? How about the natural winds? We
haven't had an El Nino for a while. Could that have something to do with
what is happening?Bottom line, man's puny efforts may be a
small contributor, but with our limited knowledge and history, how can we be
sure that we are the total cause of so called "Global Warming"?I remember well in 1976/77 Newsweek did a cover story which asked the
question, "Are We headed for another Ice Age?" Back then, all the
reasons outlined for the ice age coming are duplicated today with the global
warming crowd.They rely too much on computer models, and computer
models are only as good as the person who programs them. Also the science
reflects the bias of those making the study. On both sides.
Yea LDSLiberal, and our records here go back to what? 1847?
I have to admit, it’s hilarious watching the Algore devotes try to explain
the cooling we’ve had for the past 15 or so years. The leaked IPCC report
has said as much. Looks like the majority of their bogus models over estimated
the “warming” we were supposed to be undergoing during this period.
It’s also interesting that the cataclysmic hurricanes that were predicted
due to AGW also didn’t seem to pan out. But wait,
there’s more bad news for the Algore devotes: 1) this past summer had
record cold temperatures recorded across the nation, 2) in July, Antarctica
recorded a near record low temp of -135.3 degrees...burr!, and 3) the arctic ice
cap has grown by 29%.Adding insult to injury to the AGW Alarmists is
the fact that most people put the bogus idea of AGW at the bottom of their
concern list. Strange the AGW Alarmists aren’t celebrating the good news
that we aren’t warming…hmmm? Must be sad to have to deny reality.
@Tyler D "You mean Dr. Tol the economist?....I think we can dismiss that
nonsense out of hand."No, we can't, and here's why:
you don't have to be a climatologist to know how to conduct an honest
survey. Dr. Tol, economist, has all the skills necessary to expose the
spectacular problems in Cook's survey, and he has done so.It
got his attention when five of ten of his own papers were rated incorrectly. Of
that number, four were classified as "endorse" when they should have
been classified as '"neutral." And he's not the only person
whose views were misrepresented.A few examples:"Certainly not correct and certainly misleading. The paper is strongly
against AGW, and documents its absence in the sea level observational
facts." (Nils Axel-Morner, Ph.D Quaternary Geology)"I am
sure that this rating of no position on AGW by CO2 is nowhere accurate nor
correct." (Willie Soon, astrophysicist and geoscientist)"Nothing could be further from either my intent or the contents of my
paper." (Alan Carlin, Senior Operations Research Analyst, EPA, retired)Anyone who can read can understand that Cook's survey is bogus.
Gore already made his millions selling his global warming fiction. Big Al is
jetting across the world on his private jet ....I'm sure not burning jet
fuel but sea weed most likely. Liberals are hypocrites ...what else is new?
What I see in all of this weather, is increased volatility in temperatures...It is pretty convenient for people to use one location or even one
region to say that there is no global warming or climate change.Outside the USA there is an absolute consensus that there is climate change.
You should look at the mountains here in Mexico. They used to be snowpacked
year round almost to the Paso de Cortez. Now they are virtually nude.The winters have been getting colder, and the summers have been getting
hotter. It used to be that there were no frosts here in central Mexico, whereas
now we can get very severe frosts especially in the higher valleys surrounding
Mexico City.It also used to be that 80 degrees was a scorcher in
summer. We now regularly top that in the hot months sometimes even reaching 90
degrees. And that is in Mexico City, NOT on the coast where it gets even
hotter.Global warming? Maybe. Climate change as a result of
increased volatility in temperatures. More likely. The earth acting as it is
to remove the sins from off of it. Maybe even more so.
A corporate drama is being played out in Canada. It concerns the rail
connection to Churchill on Hudsons Bay. Several years back one of the two major
Canadian railroads (I don't remember which) sold off their branch to
Churchill - then as they say in the rail trade, a streak of rust. But now with
global warming Churchill will be a year-round port and the Canadian major is
facing buying back the former "streak of rust" at a substantial return
to the short line operator which purchased it. Global warming is real at
Attention climate change deniers: winter happens every year.
Why is every year about this time, when winter sets in, we get these same
the Global Warming deniers running out telling us; "See? Global
Warming is a Hoax, it's a Myth, all made by Al Gore to make himself
rich!"THAT is the weather, BTW - Kevin Eubank, channel 5
KSL, life-long Utahan, Bountiful, Mormon, ...hardly what you can call a bleeding
heart East-Coast liberal.Reported -- Yes, November 2013 (just like
July)-- WARMEST November ever recorded, and the trend continues.You
HAVE to look at the trends, the patterns, and not just the weather,
and not just the last 10-15 years.