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Michael E. Kraft: Yes, Congress should move quickly to pass comprehensive climate change legislation

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  • Longfellow Holladay, UT
    Dec. 8, 2013 6:54 a.m.

    Two articles by two non-scientists each arguing for different approaches to legislation designed to address Global Warming; both articles avoid the elphant in the room.

    Mr. Kraft states: "In its most recent assessment released this fall, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change said that warming of the Earth’s climate system is both unequivocal and unprecedented, a conclusion that rests on multiple and independent sources of data."

    The IPCC report is more politics than science. It fails to address the crucial issue (the elphant) that the climate models, based on the specific sensitivity of the climate to CO2 are disastrously wrong. Every month that passes the models prediction of future earth temperature diverges farther and farther from the measured reality.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Dec. 8, 2013 8:45 a.m.

    Its going to be very difficult to convince Americans to support global warming this winter! All the global warming hoaxes in the world is not keeping people warm against record cold today! Wait until next summer when it will be warmer than usual somewhere on the planet and use that "proof" to convince people the climate is getting warmer.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Dec. 8, 2013 12:26 p.m.

    When the government pretends to have the authority to control God and His creation, then they have lost touch with reality. How much dust and debris was shot into the atmosphere when Mt. Saint Helen erupted? How many other volcanoes have erupted? Man's puny hand cannot control earth's climate.

    Those who are on the receiving end of tax money are pushing for government involvement. Are we to think that we should pay politicians and the scientists, who work for those politicians, to change the earth? Are we really that stupid?

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Dec. 8, 2013 1:01 p.m.

    MM still -- and probably never will -- understand the fundamental difference between daily weather and climate. Nor is he willing to even consider such factors as the rapid loss of polar ice caps and warming of ocean water.

    I simply cannot understand how ideology can so completely cause intellectual blindness in people.

  • Thinkin\' Man Rexburg, ID
    Dec. 8, 2013 1:08 p.m.

    What climate change?

    I'm serious -- what climate change?

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 8, 2013 3:12 p.m.

    "What climate change?"

    Oh for Pete's sake! Really?

    Melting glaciers.
    Melting ice caps.
    Rapidly shifting eco-zones.
    Ocean acidification.
    Hottest decade on record.
    Rising sea levels.

    NASA maintains an excellent web site detailing the evidence for climate change. It's called "Climate change: How do we know?" Google it, and then read it.

  • embarrassed Utahn! Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 8, 2013 3:36 p.m.

    Wow! The commentary from ignorant people astounds! I'd be embarrassed to be from Idaho too!

    Has anyone paid attention to the melting ice? Has anyone heard about the extreme weather predicted by climate scientists?

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Dec. 8, 2013 4:00 p.m.

    @ One old man. Did you know that polar ice are at near record levels this year? Six years ago, the BBC reported that the Arctic, due to global warming, would be ice-free by this summer. That, clearly, has not happened. What has happened, instead, is that the Arctic ice cap has grown at a tremendous rate, by almost a million square miles. In other words, it has grown by a whopping 60%.

    I simply cannot understand how ideology can so completely cause intellectual blindness in people.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Dec. 8, 2013 6:38 p.m.

    Mountanman,

    Sea ice. Not land ice. Check out a few websites. This does not refute climate change. Really.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Dec. 8, 2013 7:43 p.m.

    Twin lights. Nope its not sea ice, it land (polar) ice. Check out the satellite photos from space recently published. Google it, its amazing!

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Dec. 8, 2013 9:34 p.m.

    Mountanman,

    Arctic ice (sea) may be covering more area than last year (which was a record low) but is very thin. Overall volume down.

    Antarctic ice (land and sea) is down on land and up on sea.

    All consistent with global climate change.

    Are we talking something else?

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Dec. 9, 2013 9:38 a.m.

    "Returning polar ice - after years of declining cover - has astonished climate scientists who blamed unusually cold weather over the Bering Sea.,Researchers said they recorded the most ice since 2001 - and that the cover is approaching long-term average levels for the first time in ten years."
    "Astonished climate scientists"? What does that mean? Everything we think we know about climate change is either completely wrong or at least very incomplete.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Dec. 9, 2013 10:08 a.m.

    @Longfellow – “It fails to address the crucial issue (the elphant) that the climate models, based on the specific sensitivity of the climate to CO2 are disastrously wrong.”

    No, that’s not the elephant in the room – the Elephant is the mascot for a party populated by people who cannot (or will not) separate real science from propaganda meant to distract, distort and deceive.

    The scientific evidence that we are causing climate change by burning fossil fuels is overwhelming and irrefutable and no one not funded by the oil & gas industry thinks otherwise.

    The fact that climate models cannot yet accurately predict the future is a red herring since this aspect of any scientific body of knowledge (prediction) is always the last to fall into place – just ask medicine and economics.

    By the logic of abandoning all knowledge until this high bar is reached, we should return to the barter system and the medical abilities of witch doctors.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 9, 2013 10:36 a.m.

    @Mountanman
    "Its going to be very difficult to convince Americans to support global warming this winter! "

    Because people have a hard time separating out cold spurts from what is still a top ten year globally?

    "Did you know that polar ice are at near record levels this year?"

    That's completely false unless you mean only the Antarctic sea ice or something extent based rather than volume since volume is at or near record lows in the Arctic, Antarctic, and Arctic sea ice.

    "Six years ago, the BBC reported that the Arctic, due to global warming, would be ice-free by this summer. "

    The IPCC report from that time projected the Arctic would be ice-free by the latter half of this century. We are ahead of those projections.

    @Mike Richards
    "When the government pretends to have the authority to control God and His creation, then they have lost touch with reality."

    What caused the ozone hole problem? What about acid rain? The heavy smog in London decades ago? The current atrocious air quality in Beijing?

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 9, 2013 10:36 a.m.

    @Mountanman
    "Its going to be very difficult to convince Americans to support global warming this winter! "

    Because people have a hard time separating out cold spurts from what is still a top ten year globally?

    "Did you know that polar ice are at near record levels this year?"

    That's completely false unless you mean only the Antarctic sea ice or something extent based rather than volume since volume is at or near record lows in the Arctic, Antarctic, and Arctic sea ice.

    "Six years ago, the BBC reported that the Arctic, due to global warming, would be ice-free by this summer. "

    The IPCC report from that time projected the Arctic would be ice-free by the latter half of this century. We are ahead of those projections.

    @Mike Richards
    "When the government pretends to have the authority to control God and His creation, then they have lost touch with reality."

    What caused the ozone hole problem? What about acid rain? The heavy smog in London decades ago? The current atrocious air quality in Beijing?

  • LDS Tree-Hugger Farmington, UT
    Dec. 9, 2013 12:31 p.m.

    Let's see...

    Global warming is a hoax,
    Salt Lake's poor air quality is due to nature and not vehicular or industrial exhaust,
    Evolution is a theory,
    people can't be born predisposed to being homosexual,
    Tobacco doesn't cause cancer,
    the Earth is only 6,000 years old,
    and man does not cause pollution.

    What part of being commanded to be "Good Stewards" over the Earth did God suddenly decide to ignore?

    and you can't figure out why the GOP keeps loosing election after election?

  • RedShirtMIT Cambridge, MA
    Dec. 9, 2013 2:41 p.m.

    To "embarrassed Utahn!" yes we have heard the extreme weather predictions made by the AGW alarmists. The funny thing is that their predicitons have all been wrong.

    Sea ice is close to the 1979 levels. The Antartic ice is thicker and is expanding further than before.

    The question is what causes the warming. Right now the models that assumed CO2 was the culprit have been proven wrong. They all said it was impossible to have 15 years with no significant warming, and we are now going onto 16 years with no warming.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 9, 2013 4:26 p.m.

    @RedshirtMIT
    Arctic sea ice extent isn't close to 1979 levels and volume is way way below 1979 levels.

    And it's really a joke for you to say there's no warming when the 2000s were the warmest decade in the modern record. But hey, good work there cherrypicking the strongest El Nino in half a century to be your starting point in your 15-16 year set. We've had La Nina 4 of the past 6 years (1 of 6 El Nino) and the weakest solar cycle in decades and yet we keep getting these top 15 warmest years on record each of the past 15 years....

  • RedShirtMIT Cambridge, MA
    Dec. 10, 2013 8:02 a.m.

    To "atl134" read "Slow growth on the Atlantic side of the Arctic, Antarctic ice extent remains high" from the National Snow and Ice Data Center. They have a nice graph that shows that we are close to the 1980 level.

    Try and do some research on it before you comment next time.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 10, 2013 10:57 a.m.

    @RedshirtMIT

    Go to "Slow growth on the Atlantic side of the Arctic, Antarctic ice extent remains high", the article you recommended to me. Then look at Figure 3. That's not near 1980 (6th smallest ice extent this year in the 35 year record, while 1980 was 6th or 7th largest).

    "Sea ice extent for November averaged 10.24 million square kilometers (3.95 million square miles). This is 750,000 square kilometers (290,000 square miles) below the 1981 to 2010 average extent and is the 6th lowest November extent in the 35-year satellite data record."

    So... who didn't do research before commenting?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 10, 2013 12:16 p.m.

    RedShirtMIT
    read "Slow growth on the Atlantic side of the Arctic, Antarctic ice extent remains high" from the National Snow and Ice Data Center.

    Try and do some research on it before you comment next time.

    ===========

    NSIDC scientists said this year’s higher extent is a temporary reprieve for the seaice.
    “While this is a very welcome recovery from last year’s record low, the overall trend is still decidedly downwards,” said NSIDC director MarkSerreze.

    “The pattern we’ve seen so far is an overall downward trend in summer ice extent, punctuated by ups and downs due to natural variability in weather patterns and ocean conditions,” Serrezesaid. “We could be looking at summers with essentially no sea ice on the Arctic Ocean only a few decades from now.”

    NSIDC scientist JulienneStroeve said this year’s summer was cooler than the last several summers and that helped to slow the melting. Stroevesaid, "Despite the lower temperatures, ice extent still fell well below the long-term average. That’s consistent with the Arctic’s ice cover being thinner than it was a few decades ago.”

    ....Try and do some research on it before you comment next time.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Dec. 10, 2013 1:02 p.m.

    To "atl134" did you see that we are still within the 2 deviations of the 30 year average. Did you see Figure 4A and 4b? They show that the amount of sea ice is greater now than it ever has been. If you look at figure 2 closer, you see the gap between the 2013 ice levels and the 30 year average is closing up, and is probably on track to end up at the same level.

    To "LDS Liberal" the question that you and "atl134" should ask is how much ice is supposed to be there? We only have been measuring the ice since 1979, which happens to correspond to a year when there was an unusual cold pattern that resulted in higher than average ice levels.