I can understand Catholics not wanting to support Abortion in any way including
not wanting to provide insurance benefits for it. I support them and anyone
else who takes this stand. This because abortion is killing innocent children.
This isn't a religious issue, it is a human decency issue.However it is stepping over the line to insist that they as an employeer not
provide birth control coverage for people when everyone else in the nation gets
it. Birth control isn't inherrently wrong. It is just an arbitary rule by
one particular religion.A persons insurance coverage should not
depend on the religion of their employer. For example Johovas Witness don't
agree with blood transfusions. Christian Scientists don't believe in going
to the doctor at all. If a person's employeer gets bought out by someone
belonging to one of these churches is it not right that their health coverage be
made to conform to the employeers religion.
“Roman Catholic Cardinal Timothy Dolan says the church has been for
universal health care for almost a century, but it can't support Obamacare
as long as it forces Catholics to violate their conscience”. "We, the bishops of the United States, can you believe it, in 1919 came
out for more affordable, more comprehensive, more universal healthcare.
That's how far back we go in this battle, okay?”So, what
happened to change your mind? The Catholic Church has been around for
centuries.“We Catholics who are kind of among the pros when it
comes to providing health care, do it because of our religious conviction, and
because of the dictates of our conscience.”Would you do it
because you are part of the human race and not for the expected reward when you
get to heaven? I have no quarrel with the Catholic Church in what
they believe and teach but I oppose their efforts to force other people to
believe as they do. By extending their religion into their business activities
they are playing dirty pool with the minds of the voluntary slaves they call
At least that's a move in the right direction. There's so much more
wrong with the ACA (Obamacare) that the whole 'law' should be
scrapped.There is nothing affordable about the ACA. It is a train
wreck happening. Obama and his administration have dumped a completely asinine
TAX program on the American people under the guise of an idiotic health law.
Millions of U.S. get while others want their 'freebies' for life at
the expense of others.This is insanity - pure and simple.
I have two major problems with the Bishop’s statements – first is
the quote below. “On the topic gay marriage becoming legal now
in 16 states, Dolan said the church has been "out-marketed" and
"caricatured as being anti-gay."”What is it with
conservatives that whenever their views are not adopted en masse they
automatically assume the unwashed masses are simply the victims of propaganda?
Did it ever occur to the good bishop that many people have heard all
the arguments, have weighed the relative merits (and values) of each position,
have applied their own values as well as reason & logic to the issue and
have intelligently decided his views are wrong?Second, 99% of all
Americans (including 97% of Catholics) have used birth control. The people have
spoken – they want it and are willing to pay into a prepaid plan to get it
in the most convenient and cost effective manner.The Constitution
created a government of, by, and for the People, not for institutional religion.
In fact the 1st Amendment specifically forbids passing any law for the sole
purpose of respecting a church’s views.
If Dolan's otherwise robust support for the ACA hinges on scraping the
contraceptives mandate, his prospects of being an effective Catholics leader
don't look too promising. Holding steadfast may be its own reward, but for
a purist it's about as good as it gets.
Health care based on the dictates of conscience...yeah, not a lot of support in
the free market for that; nobody makes a buck off of it.
This Affordable Care Act is a complete joke. Obama: "If you have an
insurance plan that you like, great! You will be able to keep that plan."Me (a self employed, healthy, 28 year old that hasn't been to the doctor
in 5 years): "Great, I get to keep my plan."My insurance provider:
"Your insurance is no longer valid due to the Affordable Care Act. Please
pick plan A, B, or C."As is turns out, plans A, B, and C are all
way more EXPENSIVE than the plan I used to have. Thanks Mr. President...The Unaffordable Care Act is a breach of my constitutional rights as an
American. I am now being forced by the Federal Government to purchase a product
that I cannot afford. Revolution anyone?
It is normal that the Catholic Church would support Obamacare. Providing
universal healthcare is part of Christian solidarity for all God's
children. Sure, the one problem with contraceptives is understandable in view of
Catholic doctrine. However, this is not a problem for the Mormon Church. So, why
doesn't the Mormon Church proclaim its support for Obamacare?
@American Patriot 2:04 p.m. Dec. 3, 2013Did you think the same thing
hen the far-right Heritage Foundation drafted it (including the insurance
mandate) and Newt Gingrich promoted it legislatively in the 1990s as the far
right alternative to Hillary Clinton's health care initiative? It was
perfectly okay with the far right then. why is that different now? Oh -- I
know -- it's because a Democrat took a far right proposal and is using it
The headline:‘Cardinal Dolan says Catholic church could be
Obamacare's biggest 'cheerleader'’alone is
misleading.' That statement in and of itself insinuates that the Catholic
church supports Obamacare lock, stock and barrel. It would have been better to
say something like "The Catholic church could support Obamacare if it
weren't for the requirement of contraceptives." This is typical of
headline writers who want to sensationalize everything. Why not say it like it
There is one known doable single-payer plan that has a ghost of a chance to
work, and that is Universal Medicare to replace ObamaCare.Institute
a 3% National Sales Tax (NST) with NO exceptions for resale, charity,
non-profits, religious, education, or government. The many cannot be continually
supported by the diminishing few. A 3% NST may raise up to $7 Trillion annually,
double the current budget, reduce national debt, spread tax burden to all
residents, legal or not. Allocation: the 1st 1% toward Budget, the 2nd 1% toward
Reduction of National Debt, the 3rd 1% for Universal MediCare for all legal
residents.Dedicate first 1% NST to Universal Medicare to
automatically eliminate most State Medicaid benefit requirements, costs, and
overhead. State Medicaid mandated costs are virtually eliminated, reducing State
budget shortfalls and tax requirements. One-third is dedicated to annual budget,
and the final one-third is dedicated to reduction of National Debt. Income taxes
are equalized for Personal and Business with a graduated tax rate of 20% max.MediCare is proven with existing superstructure, rules, and regulations,
and if it works for seniors, it is good enough for automatically applying to all
legal USA residents with Social Security Number, valid work or student visa etc.
I think everyone likes the idea of affordable health care. I like the idea of
affordable cars and food. What people don't get is ObamaCare is
not about health care, it's about health insurance. Not only that, it
appears the government has become a reseller and not even providing the
insurance coverage themselves. They have 'farmed" that out to the
"private" insurance companies and even guaranteed payment to them for a
minimum amount of sales. Again, our government, has become a reseller and reaps
a commission tax for every policy it sells for the "private" insurance
companies. It's not about care. If it was really about people dying (circa
2010) then why did "we" wait till 2014? The government should be sued
for allowing people to die between 2010 and 2014. (wink-wink)Wish
the real news media would tell it like it is. But we don't have a real news
media anymore. It's all about dumbing down America whether through the
schools or the media.
I'd be interested to know where Albert Maslar CPA (Retired) gets his
numbers. I looked up "Total retail sales for the third quarter of 2013 were
estimated at $1,140.8 billion" times 4 is 4.5 trillion.What
economy is Albert Maslar CPA (Retired) talking about that would generate 7
trillion with a 3% NST? Is the CPA just throwing numbers around?However, maybe CPA is talking about the Gross National Product, in other
words, CPA wants to tax food, books, and all services - EVERYTHING. And if so
GPA for USA is only $15T. A 3% tax on $15T is $450B and not $7T. Who's CPA
I remember the passing of the law in 2010 and there was a call coming in to
Washington from the Catholic Church to give it's approval. The church does
do many good charitable acts for people and this is a good endorsement. But
religion doesn't always face reality in general. I'm a woman who had
to find out the realities of miscarriages and sadly, this is natures' type
way of "aborting". I don't believe in abortion as an elected way of
birth control, but I have to say that it is not "murder" if it is done
before a certain stage (the legal stage). Beyond that it isn't legal or
moral. The ACA has taken steps to help the dilemma some Catholics and others
face when making decisions face that should be just between a woman, her doctor
and other people of HER choice (not religion's choice) The health plan
that's through the Catholic church (and possibly other religions) separates
that part of a plan out and a person would have to choose that on their own.
Furry1993"the far-right Heritage Foundation drafted it
(including the insurance mandate) and Newt Gingrich promoted it legislatively in
the 1990s"Whether what you say is true or not it is moot as it
never went anywhere regardless who proposed it. I am sure it would also have
been deemed unconstitutional eventually and would have also been a train wreck.
You need to remember, the government is not on our side and we need to remember
who the enemy is and they could be red or blue. Our Founding Fathers warned us
many times.As far as I can tell, all politicians, dems and repubs,
play golf with each other. The squabbles are just for show.
All insurers in New York State have been required to provide birth control
coverage as part of their health plans for decades, including the plans provided
by Archdiocese of New York to its employees...which has, in fact, done so.
It's not clear to me why Dolan is taking this stance now?
Wow Ultra Bob!Your statement really made me pause: "Would you do
it because you are part of the human race and not for the expected reward when
you get to heaven?"But your statement is so wrong on many
levels. First, you don't know what motivates people (ie don't know
what is in their head) and second, there are plenty of examples how humans treat
others when they are void of any knowledge or belief of God or an afterlife.I would think Catholics do it because they love the Lord, not because of
an admission ticket to Heaven.So, upon further reflection, I would
say I would look after number 1 (me) always and care less about the human race
if there was no accountability in the afterlife and no Savior. As a Prophet once
said: “The purpose of the church is to make bad men good and good men
better.” ― David O. McKay.
As a Catholic Navy veteran from the same town as Dolan, I support his comments.
What has made this into a big issue is the fact that "contraception" is
not defined the same by the Obama Administration and the Catholic bishops.
Abortion as a form of birth control is what this is all about. It must be
remembered that Mr. Obama was in favor of extreme forms of abortion while an
Illinois state senator and then U.S. Senator.
Coming home to roost, eh? Serving the poor has always been the one of the core
beliefs for Catholics for centuries. Then the Cardinals and Archbishops in the
US thought it would be best to shift that responsibility to the government
instead of the church. So, they supported the government's social programs
because they will no longer bear those burdens. Now that the Government place a
requirement on their programs, the Cardinals and Archbishops are crying foul.
Can't have it both ways. They failed to see, the government is not in the
health care business to take care of people. They are in the health care
business to control people. This is the core belief of Democarts for they think
the government knows best what is good for the people. No Republican voted in
favor of this mistake. Obamacare declares our current health insurance policies
to be inadequate and substandard. Really? My health insurance policy is tailored
to my needs. I do not need OB-GYN or maternity care for I am an old man. Had the
Catholic Bishops and Cardinals use faith to advance their cause, they won't
be calling foul today.
I know that the Supreme Court says corporations are people. However, it is a
bit of a stretch to say a business is Catholic or that it has a conscience.
@maclouie – “there are plenty of examples how humans treat others
when they are void of any knowledge or belief of God or an afterlife.”There are indeed and most are very positive – see Sweden, Japan,
Norway, Canada, New Zealand, Denmark, Austria, France, Germany, Australia, etc.,
etc., etc…At the same time I think the world has many examples
of how religion divides people and is responsible for much of the global
conflicts we see today.
Still, after everything this administration has done to embarrass the citizens,
you read a list of comments like this and find people who still believe in him
and in his legacy program. It is inexplicable to me. I can't help but
wonder what it wiould take for them to back away from him. Heads in sand.
Raushenbush gives us the current rules of the game: gay marriage is won through
the equation: gay = fundamental identity, or in this case: gay & married =
fundamental identity. Identity politics as usual. The idea that marriage is a
social institution that requires a social definition apart from what we may feel
about this or that individual is simply ignored. And what about people who
oppose redefining marriage because they feel their own identity enormously bound
up with it? Isn't redefining marriage, by this logic, an act of personal
animosity towards such people? (Think of those loving accusations of bigotry.)
In any case, the issue is misdiagnosed. As a practical fact, one opposes or
supports the _further spread_ of the legal & cultural redefinition of
marriage. There is something more nuanced and messy about this state of affairs.
By Raushenbush's thinking, however, the minute a single political body
approves same-sex marriage, the entire world is automatically bigoted for not
immediately approving the same law. This is nothing but rhetorical bullying.
Dolan is merely saying that something with significant human value gets whited
out when we say "no" to the whole idea of men & women and mothers
The Roman Catholic Church is in a quandary as the priesthood tends to support
dictators, kings, authoritarian governments, socialism and would support
communism if it were atheistic. In this case the Cardinal is saying Obamacare or
socialized medicine is good if it were not for the contraceptive mandate. The
head of the Communist party in the USA supports Obama care vigorously too
because it is the predecessor to socialized medicine. In South Korean priests
actually support much of what North Korea does. If there is a contrast between
two systems certainly one can see it in Korea. Free market, free enterprise,
capitalism, private property rights, lower taxes, less red tape are daily
blasted by the left, but it is what has given us our prosperity. Obama
continually fights it so we have a sluggish economy, but given the chance it
would go great.
re: maclouie 8:38 a.m. Dec. 4Pascal's wager strikes again!
I would caution the Catholic Church about joining with the Obama administration
like this. Once churches become little more than a propaganda arm for the
government, they die a slow and painful death. Just look at the Catholic Church
in Europe and South America. Yes lots of people consider themselves catholic,
but they rarely attend and barely belive in the church itself. Take care of
your own people first, use the Catholic Charity hospitals to care for the poor,
and do so using the generosity of your members.
Yesterday President Obama said that there would be no repeal of the ACA while he
is President. I wonder if he realizes that that is only about 3 years away?
Any future Congress and President could make any and all change necessary to the
ACA, including scrapping the whole thing and starting over, which is probably
the best idea. In any case, for this thing to work, the ACA will need to look a
whole lot different in the coming years than it does now. In fact I suspect the
term Obamacare will not even be relevent when future Presidents and Congresses
begin to fix this mess. It may be called the ACA part 2, 3, or 4 ect. One thing
is for sure, it had better become something less intrusive and costly than it
seems to be now. Why did the Democrats have to mess with everyones health care
when the purpose was supposedly to insure the 40 million uninsured in the first
place? It was like taking a whole car apart in order to give it a tune-up. Bad
idea and policy.
DN shows its right wing bias by trying to use this as another validation to
eliminate Obamacare. But what would really solve the Cardinal's concerns
as well as the health care crisis in America would be Universal, Single Payer,
Medicare for All. Or barring that, Medicare you can buy into, as proposed by
Alan Grayson. That would put individuals' health care choices back to the
individual (and their doctor) and leave the employer out of the equation
Those who now advocate for Medicare For All--you are aware, are you not, that
the President would have liked that, which is, after all, single-payer medical
insurance? We know what ACA is, it is the perfect not being the enemy of the
good. It is people who were not insured, some, never before in their lives,
getting to doctors. Now, just because the ACA mandates contraceptive medications
for women (which are also used for other purposes, such as chronic female
reproductive system diseases) does not require those whose faith does not permit
it to use them. The word choice means that one has the option of deciding
whether or not to make use of a product or service. It affects her alone, and
her religious life, which is not up to her friends, politicians, and certainly
not total strangers. It is up to her doctors to advise her if she has medical
conditions that can be impacted by pregnancy and childbirth. Again, it is not
the business of those in politics, however they may feel, to decide for total
strangers. Ask yourself--who do you want deciding YOUR medical care?
If the Catholic Church is for "universal" health care (which is really
government health care) in principle, it seems to me they are making a
fundamental category mistake, failing to distinguish between society and
government. Society should care for the poor and needy, but that's not the
same as saying government should. Catholics should be familiar with the concept
Tyler DI have two major problems with your comment: 1)
The left bullies dissent in the hope that many people do not apply reason and
logic in their desperate attempt to avoid being labeled a bigot, homophobe, etc;
thereby encouraging the adoption left-wing dogma out of lazy thinking or
spinelessness.I am homosexual but not myopic. Equating same-sex and
opposite-sex marriage requires a suspension of reason and logic by the willfully
blind. A cat is not a buffalo either. That does not make me a buffalophobe; it
merely make accusers hypocritical 2) The 1st Amendment specifically
guarantees that the government may NOT interfere with the free exercise of
religion. Government demanding the relinquishment of ones personal religious
conviction for the sake of getting a business license or health insurance is an
affront to religious liberty. Furthermore; any individual Catholic (or
other) has the right to decide their level of devotion to their church doctrine
- the government has NO right to do it for them. And you can buy your own birth
control for a few bucks without the expecting local diocese to subsidize you.
You are NOT a victim - you are the perpetrator.
Ultra Bob "I have no quarrel with the Catholic Church in
what they believe and teach but I oppose their efforts to force other people to
believe as they do." Wow - that is so incredibly
offensive. YOU are forcing Catholics to pay for your birth control. You can
buy it yourself. You are NOT the victim. You are forcing your views onto
others, then blaming the real victim when they resist. You are the
perpetrator. GZEIf a business is owned by
Catholics (or Mormons or Jews etc.) you can expect it to have a Catholic
conscience. To expect anyone to give up their conscience upon obtaining a
business license is horrifying.And please don't give us the law
is the law argument since there is a natural nexus between accounting/taxes and
business, but businesses have operated thousand of years without providing
abortofacients, because there is no nexus - except that you want it.
Furthermore many adopted laws are struck down because they are simply
unconstitutional (i.e. sitting at the back of the bus)
bungalow150 million uninsured people due to pre-existing
conditions??? I'm not calling you a liar, but that statistic is one
I've never heard from Obama or any other source. And if that were the
truth, I do believe Obama would have tried to sell his ACA on the basis of that
particular problem rather than trying to sell it on the idea of 40 million
uninsured. Even yesterday he made the claim that now the 40 million have
insurance because of his program. As for the E/R and taxpayer, just who do you
think is going to pay for Obamacare in the first place? The taxpayer. Yes
Medi/Medi is taxpayer funded, but a lot of health care is privately funded by
insurance companies. I hope you realize that if Obama and many Democrats had
their way, all health care would be government funded. It's called
"Single Payer". What I suggest, is both, private care for those that
buy insurance. The ACA should leave them alone, which is what Obama said would
happen, (he did lie,) and then of course a "safety net" for the indigent
and needy. Pretty much like we had it before the ACA.
Furry1993...For starters I don't like Newt Gingrich and never have. I
really don't like Hillary Clinton or her husband. Back in the 90s my family
and I had a very nice insurance program that suited us just fine. I was opposed
to many things I saw coming out of Washington, D.C. in the 90s.The
problem WE have now is an out-of-control man in the WH forcing a program down
everyone's throat. That, Furry1993, is NOT freedom of choice. That is
tyranny. Now, because of this idiotic ACA millions of Americans have
LOST - that is - LOST their perfectly good insurance coverage and every person I
have talked to sees their premiums doubling like crazy. One would have to be
blind not to see the damage this administration has caused this nation and
that's just with the ACA.As I said earlier, the ACA is a train
wreck happening and it's because we have the poorest leaders in this nation
we have ever had - EVER. They are socialists and communists as I see it. As a
veteran - I don't like socialists and communists because their ideologies
m. g. scott, I hope you realize, a lot of bankruptcies and impoverished people
have come from the privately insured folks who have gotten serious medical
illnesses such as cancer or heart, kidney, or liver problems needing extensive,
and expensive medical interventions, and these are not only elderly citizens,
but those who were sure they had enough and more to live comfortably. I have
read of couples at the point of considering the choice between selling all they
owned, and liquidating assets to avoid bankruptcy and/or qualify for Medicaid,
or file for divorce so that bankruptcy could be avoided and the ill partner
could receive the treatments available. Neither should be necessary. This
happens through the privately funded medical insurance sector, and ends up with
more people depending on the public sector who never intended to be there, and
the reason is obvious--the private sector is about profit, not wellness. If a
person is sick, private companies have no use for your business.