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At BYU, Peggy Noonan hammers Obama, talks Romney, Reagan, Clinton and the Bushes

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  • Kings Court Alpine, UT
    Nov. 19, 2013 6:11 p.m.

    "George Bush did some dramatic things, but he went to the Democrats first and he got them on board."

    Peggy Noonan is describing the war in Iraq, but what she failed to mention is that George W. Bush lied to the Democrats, Republicans, and the American people to get them on board. (Remember the weapons of mass destruction?) If that is the model for getting things done, I won't have any of it. I wonder if BYU is going to get a left-winger to spew their propaganda to provide a counterbalance to Noonan's right-wing propaganda? After all, college should be about exposing students to different ideas and healthy debate rather than rubber stamping particular political party platforms and revisionist history.

  • IMAPatriot2 PLEASANT GROVE, UT
    Nov. 19, 2013 7:00 p.m.

    Kings Court: To my knowledge there is no documented proof that Bush lied about Iraq having WMDs. However, there is ample knowledge about Obama and his administration lying to the American people to pass the ACA and to get re-elected. Obama will be known in history as incompetent, disconnected, vindictive, divisive, arrogant, hypocritical, and dishonest. If that doesn't qualify him for the label of "worst president in history," I don't know what does.

  • Meadow Lark Mark IDAHO FALLS, ID
    Nov. 19, 2013 7:03 p.m.

    And like Obama hasn't lied to us about The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare)?

  • Red San Antonia, TX
    Nov. 19, 2013 7:06 p.m.

    The real problem we have is public trust. It has been abused by these silly powermongers in Washington.

    They are self serving ego maniacs. They do dirty deals because they can.

    It is about time to clean house with them all.

    Power to the People!

  • souptwins Lindon, UT
    Nov. 19, 2013 7:20 p.m.

    I consider myself a moderate and am unaffiliated with particular party. Even I'm not sure that Bush "lied" about the WMD's. It's entirely possible to have honestly believed they existed based on the intelligence which is not always definitive. They also may have existed at the time the intelligence was received then moved to another location. All that is beside the point Noonan was making about seeking congressional input and making your case before passage of a messure. The biggest problem I have with the ACA is the process by which it was passed. Can anyone honestly say the problems with its enactment could not have been at partially avoided had we relied on the traditional American way of study, debate, and compromise BEFORE passage? Sometimes I think Obama's ego doesn't allow him to acknowledge that he doesn't know what he doesn't know which in turns leads him to not consider the need to question.

  • Tom in CA Vallejo, CA
    Nov. 19, 2013 7:29 p.m.

    Kings Court - speaking of lies:

    Obama won re-election because of blatant lies about unemployment numbers, "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor, PERIOD!! (end of story)", "the average family will save $2500", the Benghazi "internet video", and on and on and on.

    Don't preach to us about lies, please.

  • Jack Aurora, CO
    Nov. 19, 2013 8:10 p.m.

    Hmmm, no WMD in Iraq, even though we found the chemical weapons that are now called WMD...and we found evidence that Saddam sent some of his weapons to Syria.....who had those same types of chemical weapons called WMD, but President Bush lied about WMD? I'm not following the logic.

    The intelligence was there, Congress and the rest of the world believed it. So, now some are second-guessing that decision claiming lies? Evidence please, and MSNBC doesn't count.

  • C J Alpine, UT
    Nov. 19, 2013 8:13 p.m.

    I shudder to think that "Kings Court" lives in my home town.
    The country, NATO and the UN always suspected that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. That was always the belief, During the first Bush term, during Clinton's term and again during the second Bush's terms. Mr King's Court refuses to accept the facts I just cited and instead probably got mis-informed about current events and history from some news outlet known to lie to people. If you willingly believe a lie, refusing to leave ignorance behind you are just as bad as those who knowingly propograte a lie.

  • Kings Court Alpine, UT
    Nov. 19, 2013 8:43 p.m.

    Oh my. There are a lot of Kool-aid drinkers in Utah. If there were weapons of mass destruction, where are they? We were in Iraq for what, eight years? It is also funny to notice that just because I go after a Republican, I suddenly become an Obama lover. How about people quit making party politics their new religion and learn to think for a change rather than defend the indefensible. People around here just crack me up.

  • Hawkeye79 Iowa City, IA
    Nov. 19, 2013 9:07 p.m.

    Hi Kings Court,

    Apparently even Hillary Clinton must have been drinking the "Kool-aid" considering the following statement that she made:

    Speaking about the WMD's, "The consensus was the same, from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration, It was the same intelligence belief that our allies and friends around the world shared." -Senator Hillary Clinton, April 20, 2004 on Larry King Live

  • tesuji St. George, UT
    Nov. 19, 2013 9:10 p.m.

    George Will a couple weeks ago, and now Peggy Noonan. That's great as far as it goes, but can't BYU provide its students with a broader range of political speakers than this?

  • runnerguy50 Virginia Beach, Va
    Nov. 19, 2013 9:18 p.m.

    Our nation has voted for "the cool kid" as President since Clinton and our nation has suffered greatly. Obama conned the nation into believing Romney was dishonest when it was Obama who was the liar. The last three Presidents have been horrible. All three were cool when first elected and by the end of the terms we found out they were very flawed people who had no business as President.

  • Pujols4mvp Lehi, UT
    Nov. 19, 2013 9:32 p.m.

    There was a WMD in Irag. It's name was Saddam Hussein.

  • David Centerville, UT
    Nov. 19, 2013 9:39 p.m.

    Kings Court,

    The fact that WMD were not found does not conflict with the fact that multiple intelligence agencies from around the world, numerous world leaders, and a majority of congress believed Saddam had WMD. Congress had access to intelligence reports too. The consensus was that Saddam had ignored inspectors for too long. He remained a threat, most believed he had WMD and would use them (as he had before against the Iranians during the 1980s and against the Kurds in the 90's), and US leaders (including Democrats in congress) voted to go to war as nearly a decade of sanctions were not working.

    You and many Democrats love to declare Bush lied. He didn't lie. He was wrong, as were all other leaders that joined him, but he did not lie.

    Obama lied. Everyone knows it. He can no longer be trusted (was he ever trusted?). I believe he has lied repeatedly throughout his terms.

    I wish we had Romney as president.

  • FelisConcolor North Salt Lake, UT
    Nov. 19, 2013 9:52 p.m.

    tesuji

    They have gotten a broad range of speakers: Peggy Noonan endorsed Barack Obama for president in 2008. That's the political opposite of George Will in my opinion.

    Ms. Noonan has no political ideology, other than she is eager to curry favor with whichever party or leader she perceives to be the most popular.

  • Kings Court Alpine, UT
    Nov. 19, 2013 10:10 p.m.

    David, I'm not a Democrat. My view is a pox on both their houses. Just because you disagree with sacred Republicans doesn't make one a Democrat.

    Hawkeye79, I agree. Hillary Clinton was drinking the Kool-aid. She was trying to burnish her credentials as a "hawk."

    No matter how you all try to justify and rationalize it, like Obama did with healthcare, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, or a combination of the three wanted to invade Iraq to get to the WMD misled the American people and thousands of young men died for it. You would think that if they were really after WMD, they would have invaded North Korea, a country proven to have been working on them at the time. I suspect other politics were a factor in the decision to invade Iraq.

    The point of my post is that Noonan's attack on Democrats is disingenuous considering the past reputation of the last Republican administration, and let us not forget the Iran-Contra Scandal under her boss, Ronald Reagan, who seemed to not remember anything.

  • Tom in CA Vallejo, CA
    Nov. 19, 2013 10:28 p.m.

    That's right Kings Court:

    And let us not forget the ATF Operation Fast & Furious Mexican gun running operation under Obama. Oh, and I guess Hillary also lied about WMD in Iraq. You see - you can't have it both ways.

  • Kings Court Alpine, UT
    Nov. 19, 2013 11:01 p.m.

    Tom, I guess you forgot that the ATF Operation Fast & Furious began under G.W. Bush and continued under Obama, just like the much hated Guantanamo Bay to house military prisoners without trial was started under Bush and continued under Obama (another Obama campaign promise broken). I certainly like to point out the hypocrisy among those who have sworn their souls to one political party or another. It is funny how I simply point out Noonan's hypocrisy and then find myself under attack for being a liberal or a Democrat and have to be reminded of liberal misdeeds. Believe me, I'm no fan of Democrats or Republicans. They are basically just alike in their corruption and their greed and their lies. You have nothing to prove to me other than your partisan beliefs. I'm well beyond that partisanship, but it is certainly fun to stir the hornets nest among the partisan Republican readers of the DesNews who stake their very existence on every word of the various conservative propaganda machines. If Utah was Massachusetts, I would be doing the very same thing to the majority liberals there.

  • RockOn Spanish Fork, UT
    Nov. 19, 2013 11:17 p.m.

    "Bush lied"...so how do you define "lie." Not telling the truth? Can't be that. Democrats accuse Bush of lying to Democrats like Hillary Clinton who told the world there were WMDs. She wasn't telling the truth, so...she lied?

    No. Neither Bush nor Clinton lied about WMDs because lying is not telling the truth when you know what the truth is. So...Bush didn't tell the truth because he fully believed the CIA and others had told him the truth.

    Obama and his staff knew his ACA wouldn't let people keep their doctor or health plan. Period.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 12:11 a.m.

    I watched a show on KUEN-TV the other night. It showed vets severely wounded (and I mean severely) in Iraq and Afghanistan, trying to get the middle east out of their systems through fishing in Montana. These men suffer with disabilities neither I nor Noonan can comprehend, but we owe it to them to try. The vast bulk of these injuries were created by the stupid invasion of Iraq. Yes, George W Bush's presidency was consequential - and how! The monstrous death toll and disability toll of the needless Iraq war is incalculable. How can Noonan not look at that?

  • snowyphile Jemez Springs, NM
    Nov. 20, 2013 5:25 a.m.

    Peggy Noonan has bad taste in pols.

  • CougarColby Fort Benning, GA
    Nov. 20, 2013 5:35 a.m.

    Kings Court,

    I don't get your statement about how Bush lied about WMDs? Are you saying that he blatently knew they did not exist in Iraq, but pulled the wool over the entire country, government, UN and media? That is what I understand the meaning of a lie is.

    Being an officer in the Army and have deployed on multiple occasions myself, WMDs existed in Iraq. First, we know (for a fact) they were used on the Iranians, Kurds and our own soldiers (in Desert Storm). Second, EOD, ordinance and chemical specialists found traces of WMDs all over Iraq without actually finding the objects themselves. Most of these were transferred to Syria who has been currently using them. From the information I've have seen and what I have been around, WMDs existed in Iraq. I'm pretty sure they were #1 on Saddam's list of things to move when the stirrings of war began.

    Don't spout your personal beliefs as fact. Some of us have first hand experience.

  • Eddie Syracuse, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 5:48 a.m.

    @ Kings Court

    Do you not remember the dead Kurds in the North part of Iraq? The world was full of pictures of the dead. Mothers holding babies, little children, etc. etc. etc. What more proof do you need? The UN went in there and confirmed that it was chemical weapons that killed them. Why does the world keep saying there were no WMD's? There was, it was proven and yet people say they did not have them. That is like saying the Holocaust did not happen because you did not see it, or you were not there.

    The left and all those who believe that we did not need to go into Iraq just don't want to admit that they had WMD's and saying it just will not change history just because you don't like it.

  • postaledith Freeland, WA
    Nov. 20, 2013 5:52 a.m.

    Again, I see the people of Utah on their soap box putting down our president and following it up with what they think is an educated answer. This cannot be done if you're wearing blinders. George W. was the worst president we ever had in history and put our country in shambles. President Obama has been given the dirty task of cleaning up his mess and there have been some positive changes in the economy, the deficit, and equal rights. Yet these accomplishments are dismissed because our President is a democrat, and yes, he is black. This is 2013, not 1945.

  • agb Layton, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 5:57 a.m.

    Kings Court:

    I thought the liberal persecution complex was reserved for OWS rallies and MSNBC? They are probably also your best bet for validation of your claims and sympathetic ears.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 6:07 a.m.

    How much more partisan could this Washington insider be before an audience and institution that is equally as partisan?

    I seem to remember that to my knowledge, and I've been around for quite a few Presidents, this one never had the opposition party come out and publicly vow to ensure his failure. They handed him the worst mess since the Great Depression and fought every idea and proposal backed by the President, even those ideas that the GOP itself proposed. The shame of the past five years isn't the President, it is the Republican Party that gives not one whit about the interests of the country and its people.

    Peggy's beloved Bush literally left the country in a mess, and her party was determined to keep it that way. If the partisan institution loves that, then so be it, but like my Grandfather felt about Hoover, I feel about Bush, and I never want to return to that. I just wish the GOP would govern rather than try to ruin then country.

  • The Solution Dayton, OH
    Nov. 20, 2013 6:46 a.m.

    I don't know if Pres. Obama lied about his ACA plan. It is very possible that he didn't know what was in it. He didn't write it. That is the problem with presidents today, they are like quarterbacks in that they take way too much credit, for better or for worse. Obama had certain criteria that he wanted his bill to include: no denial for pre-existing conditions, no erroneous premium increases, no fraudulent plans that do inadequately cover a person once something happes, and access to health care for all, especially the lowest classes. All that sounds great, but how do you implement it?

    Well if you are Pres. Obama, you hire your trusted lawyers and experienced law makers to construe the 11,000 page bill. Do you think Obama read all that? You cannot fund all those wonderful things from thin air. Something had to give. Most likely, Pres. Obama truly believed all the things he said about his ACA at the time he said them. I'm sure there are more nuggets he doesn't know about. He still is accountable for the mess.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Nov. 20, 2013 6:48 a.m.

    Sorry fokes, but there was no threat of WMDs from Iraq and over 4,500 Americans and 100,000 Iraqs died becuase of it:

    Intelligence Committee found in 2008 that his administration "misrepresented the intelligence and the threat from Iraq".

    Source:
    Press Release of Intelligence Committee
    Senate Intelligence Committee Unveils Final Phase II Reports on Prewar Iraq Intelligence

    Two Bipartisan Reports Detail Administration Misstatements on Prewar Iraq Intelligence, and Inappropriate Intelligence Activities by Pentagon Policy Office

    Thursday, June 5, 2008

  • The Solution Dayton, OH
    Nov. 20, 2013 6:55 a.m.

    One more thing. Lying about something is different than being wrong about something. Even if Pres. Bush was wrong about WMDs in Iraq (which is not definitive), he wasn't lying about it. Just like Pres. Obama being wrong about his ACA law, doesn't automatically make him a liar. However, both lying and being wrong can lead to the same devastating consequences.

    With that said, there were plenty of reasons to pursue Sadam Hussein, who was an enemy of our country and freedom. He funded several terrorist organizations to assist them in attacking us. He was an evil dictator and committed several crimes against humanity. Capturing him and turning him over to his own country for trial was the right thing to do.

    There were plenty of other mistakes that Pres. Bush made, but Sadam Hussein was not one of them.

  • JBQ Saint Louis, MO
    Nov. 20, 2013 6:55 a.m.

    The Wall Street Journal looks at life from a fiscal perspective. The NYT is a socialist front. Republicans are fiscally sound. Democrats have become Marxist. It is up to labor to fix this. Sixty percent of the 2010 census were labor oriented European immigrant stock. The idea of the far left is to restructure society to do away with the fiscally sound because they have the money and power. Religion is also considered to be "the opiate of the people" and sexist and racist. This all started 50 years ago with the murder of a "labor" president.

  • happy2bhere clearfield, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:09 a.m.

    I've never been the biggest fan of Noonen, and now that I know she wrote the phrase "kinder, gentler nation". Yuck. Bush the first looked wimpy to begin with and I know the Democrats were seething with anger that they had another 4 years of Reagan to put up with, which was the reason the senior Bush won anyway, on the promise of 4 more years of Reagan. He of course blew that with the going back on "no new taxes". Anyway, I find it interesting that she sees Obama as "very very confident". Really? Just how confident is a politician who many times in his career does not even vote, but says "present"? And his presidency has looked anything but confident. I really don't think Ms Noonen has much to offer, and never have. Were I a politician, she would be last on my list of speech writers. And I'm a conservative Republican.

  • SCfan clearfield, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:18 a.m.

    tesuji

    Really Now? At least if some leftist/lib showed up at BYU, he/she would not be shouted down and run off campus as so many conservatives are at many of Americas big universities . Tolerance anyone? We know who has it and who doesn't. The left would rather not even hear a conservative view point, probably because it might actually make them re- think their ideology. Of course they couldn't say so until they graduated because their grades would be punished by the liberal professors for not toeing the PC line.

  • Newsouth Douglas, GA
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:22 a.m.

    I think you all need to exam is who owns the paper Peggy Noonan writes for.

  • David Centerville, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:27 a.m.

    Kings Court,

    Imagine you are US president. US and numerous world intelligence agencies report Saddam has WMD. Saddam used WMD in the 80's against the Iranians, and the Kurds in the 90's. He has played a game with UN inspectors for a decade. He is a threat in the Middle East.

    Would you believe the numerous intelligence reports? Or would you believe the agencies were lying. If you reported to Congress & the American people that Saddam had WMD would that make you a liar, when the world, the intelligence communities, and a majority in Congress (had similar intelligence reports) believed Saddam had WMD?

    Democrats like to accuse Bush of Lying. He didn't lie, he was mistaken. But he made a decision based upon intelligence reports.

    This is all history.

    We currently have a president that out-right lied. He knew he was lying, and yet he did it, straight-faced. Are Democrats, and yourself (you report to not be a Democrat) really going to rationalize Obama's lies because Bush led to war against Iraq? We get it, Bush was mistaken. He didn't lie.

    Current reality: our president out-right lied. Do you trust him? If not...

  • BobF2012 kitchener, 00
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:33 a.m.

    Let's remember that, the day before the election, Peggy Noonan predicted a Romney victory based, in part, on the number of Romney yard signs she'd seen in Florida. You can check out her pearls of wisdom online; I tried to add the link, but was unable to do so.
    And regarding WMD, many of the U.S. closest allies refused to get involved, because they knew the 'intelligence' had been falsified. Iraq was completely destabilized, with hundreds of thousands of people driven from their homes, so Mr. Bush could steal that country's oil. Bush and many of his closest advisors were all former oil company executives, who used the highest office in the U.S. to attempt to further enrich themselves. That's the GOP model; Mr. Romney tried the same thing. Had he been elected, he and his very wealthy cronies would have become even richer, while the rest of the country suffered.

  • Max Charlotte, NC
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:34 a.m.

    There is an enormous difference between being wrong about something and lying.

    Being wrong is saying something you believe to be true but it turns out to be wrong when more information becomes available. Bush was wrong about WMDs in Iraq.

    Lying is when you know what you are saying is untrue at the time you are saying it. We now know that Obama lied about everybody being able to keep their doctors and their insurance in order to get the health care bill passed and to get reelected.

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:36 a.m.

    Kings Court: You are completely mistaken. The WMD reports were completely based on CIA analysis as well as consensus among many intelligence agencies around the world including the British, the Russians and the Egyptians. All of these, as well as others, concluded that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destructions. Bitter opponents of GWB always make the claim he lied. They refuse to acknowledge the truth about this issue.

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:40 a.m.

    Kings Court: Once again, you are mistaken and apparently drinking the koolaid. Fast and Furious did NOT start during the Bush Administration. There was another program that the Obama Administration likes to claim was the start of Fast and Furious but it was nothing like it and had controls placed on it. You really need to get yourself better informed and stop watching MSNBC

  • BASavage Orem, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:41 a.m.

    I like reading about the inside of national politics. I think she was very nice to the Clintons and Obama, which is how it should be in this sort of forum. From people that I've met who served in the White House they all talked about how much GW and W loved their family and truly cared about this great land we call the United States. They also talked about how Reagan was truly a very good man as well.

    While Clinton was very good at what he did. Former aids have quietly said that he was a moral derelict and that Secret Service agents really wondered if he was worth saving in the event of a assignation attempt and that Hillary was very mean to the staff and to Bill. She was also kind to Obama, most just call him arrogant and weak.

    As for the WMD thing, lets just say that I've met many OIF veterans who saw them, saw hard evidence or saw them moved to Syria and other places. Even Clinton gave several speeches that he was out to get them.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:43 a.m.

    "US leaders (including Democrats in congress) voted to go to war as nearly a decade of sanctions were not working."

    Seriously, not working. They had crushed the country and the economy. They killed tens of thousands of Iraquiis. We knew this, and at the same time we didn't have one shred of evidence that he had WMD's. We suspected.

    Then Cheney and the CIA went to work and did in fact concoct lies. The yellow cake, the aluminum tubes, all lies. Yes they were told the truth and lied. It's uncertain and probably always will be what Bush knew. It's clear however that he should have known because down the line they knew.

    We can talk about your Obama distortions later but you don't get to re-write Bush history.

    BTW, while we're talking about lies and saints, anyone remember Iran Contra where Regan committed treason and then lied about it?

  • SCfan clearfield, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:49 a.m.

    The Solution

    The part where I do think Bush lied was not about the WMD, but about what he planned to do after the invasion of Iraq. We all thought that it was a mission to go in, get the WMD, or determine that Iraq could not make them, and then get out. This staying around and trying to change the ways of a culture thousands of years old, was a dumb and naive idea. Bush never said to the American people that the plan was to occupy Iraq for years and years. Had he said so, the American people would likely have said no. Much like if Obama had told the truth about ACA, the American people would likely have said no. I hate "ends justify the means" policy making, and it is time the American people demand more honesty from their politicans and Presidents. Hopefully next time.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:55 a.m.

    @Marxist:
    "The vast bulk of these injuries were created by the stupid invasion of Iraq."

    My daughter did a summer internship for the government of Jordan teaching English to Iraqi refugees. A woman stood up, in the class, dressed in the full length robe and veil, and said, "My whole family was killed in Iraq." And she stood and wept and the other people in the class didn't know what to do.

    I don't think Bush lied about WMD. I think that Rumsfeld and Cheney and the neo-cons may not have lied either. But in the judgment day they are going to have to face this widow and saying, "Keeping Americans safe" is not going to cut it.

    We should not attack countries that are not at war with us. If we do, we have moral ownership on everything happens from then on.

  • Tom in CA Vallejo, CA
    Nov. 20, 2013 8:01 a.m.

    " ... They handed him the worst mess since the Great Depression .... "

    And Barack Obama has made it 10 times worse. Thank you very much.

  • Paul in MD Montgomery Village, MD
    Nov. 20, 2013 8:01 a.m.

    I read the two popular comments, both replying to Kings Court, who said Bush lied to us about WMDs.

    Remember, Sadaam had used a WMD (gas) against Kurdish Iraqis before the war. So the world knew that he had them at one point. He spent months convincing the world he still had WMDs, and wouldn't let anyone verify he had destroyed them, as the UN mandated that he do.

    What about our intelligence network in Iraq? Well, it came out later that it is so hard to get one set up in the Arab world that we really didn't have any intelligence assets in that part of the world. I'm not sure we do to this day, other than our own troops.

    So, if I tell you I have a gun, and you tell your mother I have a gun, and it turns out I don't have a gun, who lied?

  • KanataHal Ottawa, 00
    Nov. 20, 2013 8:09 a.m.

    I am flabbergasted by this revision of history. While the health care mess is troublesome, it doesn't make a ripple compared to the Bushes' invasion of Iraq. Not very objective, to say the least!

  • TMR Los Angeles, CA
    Nov. 20, 2013 8:10 a.m.

    As a Republican apologist, Noonan of course is going to take shots at Obama and soften the scrutiny of the Bushes. There is no way Obama was going to get the Republicans on board with national health care: he did what he had to do. Bipartisanship works if the other party is willing to work with you, but the party of "no" has made it clear from day one that it has no interest in compromise.

  • The Solution Dayton, OH
    Nov. 20, 2013 8:14 a.m.

    BobF2012:
    And just where are all these oil reserves that Pres. Bush stole? Why am I still paying over $3 per gallon if we have all these vast stores that we stole? That is a total lie on your part. Some of us work in the IC and know that there were in fact WMDs that were transported out of Iraq. Now think about this... if you know where your enemy transported the WMDs, would you broadcast to the world that you know where they are just to save face? Then your enemy would know that they need to move them again and you may lose track of where they end up. Bush chose the higher road, protecting the US, and he took all the slander the media and people like you have given him.

    postaledith:
    Pres. Bush is not the worst ever, not by a long shot. That honor currently belongs to Bill Clinton. He is the reason we have the economy problems in the first place.

  • oddman ,
    Nov. 20, 2013 8:20 a.m.

    Many thoughts expressed by both sides are true and factual. Both parties are corrupt and seldom act except in self serving partisan ways. Lying is knowing the truth and not telling it to 'we the people'. It is doubtful if we will ever be given the truth about WMDs that Iraq did or didn't have but , in my opinion, those in power acted upon what they were told by the intelligence committee. Even the senate which heads the Intelligence Committee believed, or at least told us they believed, the reports of wmds in Iraq. It flabbergasts me that there is no ground swell by 'we the people' to pass the, oft talked about 28th Amendment, making our politicans no different than their struggling constitencies.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Nov. 20, 2013 8:27 a.m.

    BYU is doing a great job of political indoctrination. George Will, Peggy Noonan -- who's next, the ghost of Warren Harding?

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Nov. 20, 2013 8:28 a.m.

    @The Solution

    With that said, there were plenty of reasons to pursue Sadam Hussein, who was an enemy of our country and freedom.

    ------------------

    You have to be more speicifc then that. When? Under Reagan Sadam Hussein was a friend of our coutnry and freedom:


    U.N. inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce... these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs.

    -- Source: Riegle Report

  • dalefarr South Jordan, Utah
    Nov. 20, 2013 8:51 a.m.

    When I attended BYU we had speakers such as then Vice President Nelson D. Rockefeller. BYU can and should expand the spectrum of speaker offerings.

  • WHAT NOW? Saint George, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 8:53 a.m.

    "...my beloved Mr. Reagan...".

    Noonan knew about Ronald Reagan and the abortion bill he signed in 1967 as GOV. of California which led to the murder of more than 2,000,000 babies yet she and all Republicans continue to venerate Ronald Reagan.

    Anyone who would write speeches for such a person let alone continue to extoll the virtues of such a person was/is/will ever be nothing more than a willing accomplice/enabler/apologist.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 8:55 a.m.

    BYU could do far better than the echo chamber of revisionist history taught at mainstream neocon media.

    Uteology Thank you for posting the facts,. To bad facts that are contrary to their belief system, that is the conservative religion, will be promptly ignored. And misrepresent is a polite way of saying he Lied!

    Also the Kurds were gassed in 1989 when old man bush was vice president and holding hands walking about smiling with Saddam. Why did we wait 11 years and not even bring this up during the 1st gulf war?

    We dumped 1,000's of tons of Depleted Uranium on Iraq along with our allies, essentially a dirty bomb, until we got caught, trouble was it didn't discriminate between our soldiers and the bad guys.

    Saddam had a big mouth and didn't want to seem defenseless against Iran after years of our backing that war.
    That and being thrust from recipient of cash, weapons, tech and love from America to leader of the imaginary axis of evil.

    If you can't see the difference between the 2 "misrepresentations" than you may be doomed.

  • J-TX Allen, TX
    Nov. 20, 2013 9:11 a.m.

    postaledith actually wrote:

    "Obama has been given the dirty task of cleaning up his mess and there have been some positive changes in the economy, the deficit, and equal rights."

    Which of the following are positive?
    -Real unemployment never dropping below 14%
    -The FED artificially propping up the stock market so the rich get richer
    -Failed Trillion dollar stimuli
    -Failed bailouts and protecting the big banks from their bad business decisions
    -$7 Trillion in additional National Debt (deficit)
    -An ever larger trade imbalance
    -Increased poverty rolls with record numbers getting food stamps
    -Largest ever chasm between the rich and the poor
    -Race baiting and racism on the rise, due in part to our President's inappropriate and slanted comments
    -A more polarized society than any time since the 60s
    -A more polarized Washington than any time in US history
    -Failure to deliver on even ONE campaign promise
    -Multiple scandals and dereliction of duty by his cabinet on many fronts (NSA, IRS, F&F, Benghazi)
    -Increase in cronyism (ACA exemptions for his buddies, congress, cabinet, Solyndra, the new FED Chief to succeed Bernanke)

    What about our rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness? All infringed by Obama.

    Worst. President. Ever.

  • LiberalEastCoastMember Parkesburg, PA
    Nov. 20, 2013 9:14 a.m.

    Makes me wonder why I should continue to have anything to do with BYU or its sponsoring organization.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Nov. 20, 2013 9:16 a.m.

    "You lie"

    Who? Politicians? No.....

    Did Barack Hussein Obama lie to get elected? yes, as much as Peggy Nooan and her ex-boss did:

    "Read my lips: no new taxes" said George H. W. Bush said at the 1988 Republican National Convention as he accepted the nomination on August 18. The speech was written by Peggy Noonan...

    The pledge not to tax the American people further had been a consistent part of Bush's 1988 election platform... The impact of the election promise was considerable, and many supporters of Bush believe it helped Bush win the 1988 presidential election...

    Once he became president, however, Bush raised taxes as a way to reduce the national budget deficit.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Nov. 20, 2013 9:35 a.m.

    @J-TX

    Dude, put down your tin foil hat and step away from conservative talk radio.

    But I have to admit the following made me smile:

    "Race baiting and racism on the rise, due in part to our President's inappropriate and slanted comments"

    Have you read Brigham Young's comments on race?

  • happy2bhere clearfield, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 9:42 a.m.

    TMR The party of NO these days has been the Democrats in the Senate. Harry Reid is saying no to any bill brought from the House that will help fix the problems in the ACA. So just who is it that is not compromising now? The chicken or the egg?

    LiberalEastCoastMember
    I can't believe how some posters are blowing a gasket over a couple of conservative speakers at BYU. Universities all over America hear from the left every day, and yet if some conservative shows up, they likely get shouted down. Send a leftie to BYU, and maybe they won't get much audience, but at least they will be able to speak.

  • Mike in Sandy Sandy, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 9:45 a.m.

    BYU is the only place where she'd get any play. They are perfect for each other.

  • J-TX Allen, TX
    Nov. 20, 2013 9:57 a.m.

    BTW, I know most LDS Repubs venerate Reagan, but he began the ridiculous Trillion dollar deficit spending that today threatens to undermine our economy and our future. Every President since has deficit spent more Trillions, except during the 5 years that Clinton balanced the budget.

  • Ed Grady Idaho Falls, ID
    Nov. 20, 2013 10:06 a.m.

    Here is something to think about: when Obama lied - nobody died. I wish I could say the same about "W"

  • TMR Los Angeles, CA
    Nov. 20, 2013 10:11 a.m.

    To happy2behere: I have no idea what the chicken and egg have to do with the issue, but on the whole, the GOP has well earned its brand of "no, no, no." I am not suggesting that the Democratic party scores well on this point, but I was simply providing context by which to measure the fairness or lack thereof in Noonan's criticism.

    As a professor in what you likely would consider a "liberal" university, I can assure you that conservatives often speak and they are not shouted down. I have children who attend and have attended BYU: the university does a lot of things well, but it would be well served by mixing it up a bit on the political biases of its major speakers. It would be good for the kids and good for the image of BYU.

  • twspears6007 Bakersfield, CA
    Nov. 20, 2013 10:17 a.m.

    Has anyone thought about reasons leading up to the Iraq war. Time for a little refresher course. Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait unprovoked why because he wanted their oil. George Hershel Bush formed a coalition with other nations to remove Saddam's army from both Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and that stopped Saddam's ambitions to take over the oil in the Middle East. Lets not forget the Scud missile's launched at Israel by Saddam Hussein also unprovoked. Let not forget that Saddam also even after a severe punishment from the coalition he still was a threat to the peace in the Middle East. Let not forget that President George Walker Bush went to the Senators and Congress to get the support for the Iraqi War the Majority voted to support the war even many Democrat's believed the Saddam had weapons of Mass destruction and the war was approved. My question is why are we blaming President George Walker Bush for a war that was approved by the majority of our legislators. Besides is there anyone out there that does not believe that removing Saddam Hussein from power was the right thing to do. Sincerely, Trenton Spears

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 10:31 a.m.

    RE: twospears " My question is why are we blaming President George Walker Bush for a war that was approved by the majority of our legislators." Good point. I don't blame W. exclusively. Both parties went along with that war. I signed a pledge that I would never vote for anybody who voted for that war, i.e. Jim Matheson. I've kept my word!

  • Ed Grady Idaho Falls, ID
    Nov. 20, 2013 10:34 a.m.

    The reason Iran is so obnoxious today is because their natural enemy, Iraq, was neutralized by Bush and his cronies. Iraq kept Iran in line.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 10:38 a.m.

    Obama is in his 2nd term.

    Sorry, you lost.

  • Tyler McArthur South Jordan, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 10:42 a.m.

    To tesuji and all of you disparaging BYU for bringing in a conservative speaker;

    The Church endorses no political candidates or parties and encourages its members to examine the issues carefully before voting. BYU has a great track record of bringing in both liberal and conservative speakers. I personally watched Harry Reid give a forum address in the Marriott Center and he received a very polite, cordial and warm response. There are many more examples that I could list. Please don't base your mockery on anecdotal evidence.

  • ConservativeCommonTater West Valley City, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 10:59 a.m.

    "She spoke lovingly of the elder President Bush...but said his kindness sometimes led to missed opportunities, such as when the Berlin Wall fell and he refused to "rub it in" the noses of Soviet leaders by making a major speech."

    "Rubbing it in" is not the attribute of a good leader, a statesman or a good Christian, all of which Republicans claim Bush Sr. to be.

    This sounds like a sophomoric cheerleading rally rather than a presentation of intellectual idea that are good for the country.

  • Midwest Mom Soldiers Grove, WI
    Nov. 20, 2013 11:14 a.m.

    What a load of rubbish. If this woman were genuine in her promotion of unity, then she would not have made such a partisan speech.

    Government is the people. Us. All of us. Let's get back to E pluribus unum and can the talking heads with their unilateral, self-serving agendas.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 11:38 a.m.

    Irony Guy
    Bountiful, Utah
    BYU is doing a great job of political indoctrination. George Will, Peggy Noonan -- who's next, the ghost of Warren Harding?

    8:27 a.m. Nov. 20, 2013

    ---

    LiberalEastCoastMember
    Parkesburg, PA
    Makes me wonder why I should continue to have anything to do with BYU or its sponsoring organization.

    9:14 a.m. Nov. 20, 2013

    ===========

    Agreed.

    If this is what BYU is espousing,
    perhaps they should just all drop out of college like their AM radio talkshow hosts did.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 11:44 a.m.

    @ Tom in CA, I guess you haven't checked the numbers for the economy. Like someone pointed out, with the Dow double what it was, Obama is the worst Socialist ever! LOL!!

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 11:47 a.m.

    To "J-TX" lets look at history a bit closer. First, when Reagan was asked about some of the mistakes that he made during his Presidency, he said that one of his biggest mistakes was that he believed the Democrats that promised to cut spending. Reagans fault was that he actually trusted the Democrats to do what they promised to do.

    Next, the budget has not been balanced since 1967. According to the GAO, the smallest deficit during the Clinton years was about $23 billion.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 11:55 a.m.

    I'm sure glad someone around here is finally stepping up and calling out Mr Obama. I wish someone would investigate and report on Benghazi. That didn't get near the attention it needed to. In fact I think it should get the same amount of attention that all the other embassy attacks got from 2000 to 2008.

  • Bob A. Bohey Marlborough, MA
    Nov. 20, 2013 11:59 a.m.

    Gosh Peg, you know so much why don't you run for president. I bet you'd be just perfect!

  • dLange Los Gatos, CA
    Nov. 20, 2013 12:11 p.m.

    What is wrong with BYU?!! It is not good that an institution of higher learning continues to give a soap box to only one political point of view, and the wrong one at that.

  • Vanceone Provo, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 12:38 p.m.

    It's not fair! Why can't BYU be like 99 % of the other universities and invite only people from MSNBC and the Democratic Parties approved speaker list? Why, by allowing people like Noonan and Will to speak, those poor BYU students might--gasp!--get the message that Karl Marx isn't the one and true God of the earth!

    Even worse, they might not want to chant hymns of praise to Obama! Inconceivable! Free Speech means listening only to leftists, we all know that! If people actually get a chance to hear someone who is to the right of Lenin, they might start thinking troubling thoughts! Don't they know that leftism is the only true and valid way of thinking? Liberalism is the only possible answer, the savior of us all?

    We should pass a law forbidding anyone not on a list prepared by Valerie Jarret from ever addressing a body of students again! How else will our rising generation know where to find the truth? After all, freedom of speech is only to be used as long as it's not hate speech, or racist speech, and any opposition to liberal mantras is by definition hate or racist.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 12:40 p.m.

    BYU seems to be about as "Fair and Balanced" as FoxNews.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 12:45 p.m.

    twspears6007 So Both Bushes lied and you believed them, Good for you. To bad your facts leave out all the nasty little details. Like Kuwait drilling under the border and Saddam asking America if they would interfere if he attacked Kuwait
    Bush told him no, than the Saudi's called in a favor, and from ally to #1 threat in 3..2..1. So we dumped 1,000 of tons of Depleted Uranium on Iraq oh and our men (Gulf Syndrome) or Dirty bombed a country who we formerly paid to stay at war with Iran. And then the story continues with more deception and lies and the right continues to defend the warmongers.

  • Billy Bob Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 1:03 p.m.

    Bush was wrong about WMD in Iraq, as were most everyone else with the same information that he had. At the time, everyone thought Iraq had WMD. Bush did not lie about it, unless everyone else who was wrong (based on bad information) was also lying. Being wrong about something is not the same thing as lying.

    Obama,on the other hand, has lied about Obmamacare. It is his baby, his crown jewel of his presidency. And he blatantly lied about it. If he didn't know what was actually in the law, then I guess he didn't lie, but he was criminally negligent about it. He should know what is in the law that is supposed to be the defining part of his presidency. So either way, it is not fair to say that Bush and Iraq is the same as Obama and health care. Although Bush is not without fault in the way he treated the Iraq situation, Obama is far worse with Obamacare. Obama lied, Bush acted based on the best information available to him (and anyone) at that time, and it turned out that the information was wrong.

  • BioPowertrain Detroit, MI
    Nov. 20, 2013 1:26 p.m.

    Surprising to hear so many people critical of Ms. Noonan, Republicans/Conservatives and BYU for hosting way too many conservative figures vs. so few liberals. Surprising, but VERY comforting, because it appears DN readers are starting to really use their heads.

    I have two degrees from BYU, and I am so grateful for my BYU education. But I was there when Helen Thomas spoke at BYU (before her anti-Jewish statements controversy) and was booed extremely loudly. Harry Reid spoke at BYU a few years ago and was roundly booed at a less-than-full Marriott Center, which was (1) super-partisan, because Mr. Reed is the most powerful Mormon politician ever, and should be honored by our faith's university as such; and (2) extremely classless, because he's a CONVERT to our faith, and should NEVER have been treated that way by good latter-day saints.

    I am a former Republican, and I mean it when I say I didn't leave the Republican Party -- the Republican Party left me. I eagerly await the day the Republican party rights itself so I can come back. HURRY UP PLEASE!

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 1:39 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" since when are Universities supposed to be "fair and balanced"? Right now most universities are heavily biased towards liberalism. Are you saying that you want to have about 22% of all college profesors fired and replaced with conservatives? Read "College Faculties A Most Liberal Lot, Study Finds" in the Washington Post. They find that 72% of professors are liberals. So, to make things balanced we should fire at least 22% of them and replace them with conservatives.

    Is that what you really want? Or are really using the whole "fair and balanced" argument as a shield so that you can further indoctrinate college kids with liberal ideology?

  • twspears6007 Bakersfield, CA
    Nov. 20, 2013 2:26 p.m.

    Let see the argument is both bushes lied about Iraq. If anyone can openly say the removing Saddam Hussein was a bad thing they are either naive or not a student of true history. When Dictator Manual Noriega was removed from Panama I did not hear much from the liberals and Democrat's they thought it was a good thing. What was his crime, killing his enemies, drug trafficking and extortion. When Saddam Hussein was removed his crimes were using WMD poison gas against his own people the northern Kurds. People were tortured and imprisoned and killed for political reasons and although the Sunnis were the minority the Shiites the majority were persecuted for their religious beliefs. Anyone that beliefs that Iraq held or could hold Iran in check is living in a fantasy world. Anyone that believes that the US should stand by and let dangerous Dictators destroy world peace is sadly mistaken. Unfortunately peace must be fought and some must die for. If anyone believes that peace comes without death or sacrifice history does not support this thinking. Everyone commenting on this web site are free because someone fought and died for them please enjoy your Freedom

  • 2-headed Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 2:26 p.m.

    There's something obnoxious about Noonan's statement that President Obama is "confident, very confident, very, very confident." Sure the president has a confident demeanor, but I wouldn't go so far as to repeat the words "confident" and "very" three times each.

    President Reagan was also extremely confident and he was praised for it; Obama not so much. In other words, when white men are confident, they're confident; when black men are confident, they're uppity.

  • BobF2012 kitchener, 00
    Nov. 20, 2013 2:27 p.m.

    Are there still people who think Bush didn't lie about the WMD? I don't think there are many outside of conservative enclaves. The intelligence simply wasn't there, as evidenced by the fact that many of the U.S.'s most trusted allies took a pass on the Iraqi misadventure, and that no WMDs were found. Don't you think that, if Iraq had such weapons, it would have used them against the invading U.S. troops?
    President Bush was certainly an intellectual lightweight, but, like Mr. Romney, his eye was always on the bottom line: the almighty dollar. So what if a few hundred thousand people die? Is there an opportunity to make a profit?
    President Obama is not the super-hero his most ardent fans believe him to be, but when I think of the two people he ran against - John McCain and Mitt Romney - I'm SO glad he's in the White House.
    Why doesn't BYU invite Hillary Clinton so speak there? Or Elizabeth Warren?

  • Wayne Rout El Paso, TX
    Nov. 20, 2013 2:28 p.m.

    It is shameful that only 1500 students were present. I'm disappointed in the university leadership and faculty.

  • Flashback Kearns, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 2:42 p.m.

    King's Court, Bush hasn't been the president for 6 years. Was Colin Powell a liar when he outlined the intelligence to the U.N? Were the inteligence people in France, England, Canada, Russia, etc all lying when they said that there were WMD's (documented usage by the way) in Iraq? Get off of your Ted Kennedy liberal talking points high horse.

    Remember Nancy Pelosi famously said, "We have to pass it to know what's in it." That is how Obama and company work. No working with the other side. No compromise. No input.

    I'm going to watch Noonan's speech when it shows up on BYUTV. I watched George Will's. It was awesome. I'm sure that her's will be also.

  • Wayne Rout El Paso, TX
    Nov. 20, 2013 2:53 p.m.

    I am always amazed, but never surprised, at how poorly informed liberals are. They make up facts, tell them to each other until they all think they are true. There is no point discussing errors in the many liberal comments. Liberals won't or can't listen to the truth. There is no doubt that President Bush could have done some things better as we can say of all of us. The sad thing is that as our country is slipping down the drain, we have to drag up old worn out babble about the past rather than deal with the future. I only wish I lived a bit closer so I could have heard her speech.

  • Flashback Kearns, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 2:56 p.m.

    Context Uteology, context. What Brigham Young said about race 150 years ago reflected the times that he lived in. In his day, is comments were mainstream. Quit pulling stuff out of the dark place and spouting them as truth. Kinda like the "100,000 Iraqis dead". Where did you get that number? You get your tinfoil hat off. Unfortunately war kills people and sometimes innocent people are killed. Our military generally didn't go out head hunting in Iraq.

    I guess you are all for the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo during WW II, eh? I'd say that in those two raids, way more innocent civilians were killed by our military than in Iraq. Does the fact that Roosevelt and Truman were in charge at the time make any moral difference? At the time, the decision to bomb those two cities to hasten the end of the war seemed to be the right thing. As was dropping the two A-Bombs on Japan. Through the moral perspective of 2013, they don't appear to be right. Through the moral perspective of a world war in 1945 they were right.

    Context.

  • WRK Riverton, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 2:59 p.m.

    It is funny to me that people on the left say people on the right are Kool-Aid drinkers, when they have heard that line used so many times by the left wing media that I don't think they know what it means. It means to repeat something from a main stream source (like the left wing media) without doing the research on your own to find out the truth of a statement. Like all of the materials needed to create WMDs found but not reported by the left so they can make themselves look like the good guys. Now someone who thinks for themselves looks at the facts about a President who came right out and said that he may have mis-spoke when he said that you could keep your plan. In other words, "I told you a lie to pass this bill".

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 3:13 p.m.

    @twspears6007
    Bakersfield, CA

    When Dictator Manual Noriega was removed from Panama I did not hear much from the liberals and Democrat's they thought it was a good thing.

    When Saddam Hussein was removed his crimes were using WMD poison gas against his own people the northern Kurds.

    If anyone believes that peace comes without death or sacrifice history does not support this thinking. Everyone commenting on this web site are free because someone fought and died for them please enjoy your Freedom

    2:26 p.m. Nov. 20, 2013

    =======

    1. Saddam Hussein NEVER attacked America. He didn't have WMDs, and he hadn't used chemical weapons on the Kurds on over 13 years.
    Do you still feel we were justified attacking, invading and occupying a dictator we put in place, turned rougue on us, who just "haapened" to be sitting on a bunch of Oil?

    2. I served in the military under Reagan, and was deployed to Panama TWICE during Noriega.

    3. As a veteran, I don't recall ever fighting defending the Constitution, or Freedoms speech, assemble, religion, press, etc.

    but
    I spent plenty of time on military boon-doggles fighting for NON-Americans at U.S. tax-payers expense.

  • Jared NotInMiami, FL
    Nov. 20, 2013 3:16 p.m.

    Like her opinions or not (I happen to like many of them), Peggy Noonan is a clear thinker and excellent writer.

  • Shazandra Bakersfield, CA
    Nov. 20, 2013 4:00 p.m.

    Peggy can't help it. It's the Kool-Aid additives. And all who pick a flavor remain stuck in that ideology, if they never go natural.

    I drank the Kool-Aid for over 35 years. I was raised on it, weened to it, knew nothing different. Everyone I loved and respected drank it, so I became addicted. It colored my world-view from religion to politics.

    But I discovered that people on all sides of the spectrum who were addicted to a particular flavor, simply espoused the ideals of their flavor.

    Growing up LDS/Democrat in L.A.'s '60-'70's was strange. My cohorts gave my "Mormon racism" (their term) a pass because I was an ardent activist. Then they got furious when I questioned their blind allegiance to every immoral ideology simply because it was stamped by our fave KA flavor leaders.

    I noted their KA addiction prevented their objectivity. So I made a radical decision to 'try' BYU for a year. Remaining in lockstep with those leading KA Stirrers, I was BWOC...

    But switch flavors and you'll lose comprades in either camp. Go natural and you'll be locked out of the tent.

  • RFLASH Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 4:06 p.m.

    She is wrong about one major point. She says that Obama didn't get with the opposing party and get them on his side. The woman clearly remembers only what she wants. How many times did Obama ask for input from Republicans? Republicans fixed their minds on one thing and that was the downfall of Obama. If somebody can't see that, they are blind! They have been frantic to see him fail! There hasn't been anything like it before! Another thing, it isn't over yet. Obamacare isn't history yet. I think, considering just how many people opposed everything he has done, Obama has been a good president. He has had the guts to try and he hasn't let the tea party zealots win! He has also fought for the American people and it is sad that people rip him apart for it. Imagine how much better things could have been if Republicans actually did their part. Republicans are the ones who have failed. Looking back it should be clearer just how little they have done! This woman should run. She wouldn't make any mistakes, would she.

  • LunchBoy DRAPER, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 4:36 p.m.

    Boy, you've got drink some serious Kool-Aid to use George Bush Jr as an example of bipartisanship. I get a sugar high just thinking about it.

  • 2-headed Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 4:36 p.m.

    RFLASH--nicely said. Obama reached out to Republicans repeatedly. He reached out to Republicans by using a Republican-authored, market-based model for the ACA, which in the Republican mind, makes him a socialist. I have only one comment about that: LOL!

  • Shazandra Bakersfield, CA
    Nov. 20, 2013 4:56 p.m.

    Context, Flashback? Facts, Flashback, facts.

    And BYoung's statements and prohibitions were echoed and acquiesced to by every subsequent leader for the next 133 years. Cultural bias or popular context/usage does not make a practice right. Example: Either the N word is wrong for all, or its disparaging definition and origin still disparages all users.

    =====
    2-headed:

    1- Noonan's obnoxious repetition was meant to emphasize our President's (obnoxious) over-confidence. Not all in "Backo" have forgotten paragraph indention or rhetorical implication for impact. It was an over-statement of the obvious, irrespective of epidural tone.

    2- Last time I checked my biology books, confidence/pride/smug upittiness were human characteristics which skip no race, color or creed.

    Using your (flawed) logic, anyone who points out Reagan's confidence hates white men.

    Registered Independent for over 25 years, I have voted for several Black candidates, all extremely confident (isn't an unconfident politician an oxymoron?), from different parties and platforms. Race never entered my mind: from Alan Keyes to AC, Herman Cain to BHO. It was all about ideology or who could beat that white liberal woman who believes in that vast RWing conspiracy.

  • elkman11 salt lake, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 5:14 p.m.

    AS I remember it the President did try to engage the Repubs, but their attitude from the getgo was to defeat Obama in the next election. They were not going to cooperate with anything he tried to do.

  • ulvegaard Medical Lake, Washington
    Nov. 20, 2013 6:37 p.m.

    As I read the article, I thought that the speaker was critical of just about everyone. I think she was trying to point out what could have been better in each presidency, and for that matter, what worked. Then, all of a sudden, we've got a war about WMDs in Iraq and which president lied more than the other.

    I dare say that this country has gone from being a Republic vs Democrat mentality to a Citizen vs the government society. More and more, the party labels serve only to function for the purposes of elections - but once in office, its a good 'ole boys club lets see how much money we can extract from the population to ensure our retirement and re-election.

  • LovingMormons Bakersfield, CA
    Nov. 20, 2013 6:49 p.m.

    If only Peggy's audience and the devout posters here would vett their own heritage and history with the same objectivity and tenacity...

  • Instereo Eureka, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:17 p.m.

    The article talks about how Noonan showed the weaknesses and flaws of the last 5 presidents and what they didn't learn from their predecessors. The headline though shows the bias so many pander to here in Utah.

  • 2-headed Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 20, 2013 7:48 p.m.

    Shazandra—
    --“Last time I checked … confidence/pride/smug upittiness were human characteristics which skip no race, color or creed.”--

    I don’t dispute that confidence is a transracial characteristic. My point was simply that Reagan is praised and Obama criticized for the same quality.

    --“Using your (flawed) logic, anyone who points out Reagan's confidence hates white men.”--

    That would be true only if white men shared the black man’s history of racial oppression. Don't try to even a historically uneven playing field by insisting that I be unfair to Reagan in the same way Noonan is unfair to Obama. And if you’ll recall, I did not criticize Reagan for his confidence. I pointed out Noonan's apparent double standard.

    You're trying to argue that you and Noonan find Obama’s confidence “obnoxious,” not for any racial animus, but simply because it is. That line of reasoning would be plausible if a pattern of similar verbal assaults on Obama’s confidence were not on record.

  • Shazandra Bakersfield, CA
    Nov. 20, 2013 9:16 p.m.

    2-headed:

    All the best, but flawed. Been there, done that. Race baiting at its worst.

    What about all the Black Conservatives and Repubs who agree? Do they hate their own race?

    Cocky, arrogant, flawed, manipulative: that describes plenty of politicians, regardless of their race, history, silver-spooned or povertied heritage.

    Honesty, facts and truth trump context or the Straw Man ruse every time. Perception is a major factor in voting, as well as prejudices. They both exist, independent of the other.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Nov. 21, 2013 9:15 a.m.

    ulvegaard
    Medical Lake, Washington
    As I read the article, I thought that the speaker was critical of just about everyone.

    =======

    She's just following the same formula used by FoxsNews and AM radio --

    1. Talk about patriotism and love of country,
    2. identify those who do not share your narrow opinions, and then villify them,
    3. begin blaming them [and only them] for every conceiveable ill, flaw, or whoa.
    4. Fertilize with Fear about what will happen next if left unchecked
    5. Whip up the angry mob and spring into action.

    It worked well for 30-minute info-mercials,
    burning witches and
    and Nazi Germany.

  • Paul in MD Montgomery Village, MD
    Nov. 21, 2013 9:36 a.m.

    Pagan, yes, Obama won the 2012 election. But information forms opinions, and opinions support votes. Recent polls suggest if held today, the election would go to Romney. One of those polls asked that question specifically, and the result was Romney 53%, Obama 47%.

    LDS Liberal, over the years I've seen very few stories from ABC/CBS/NBC disparaging Democrats, even when they were caught with classified documents in their shorts, but Fox doesn't hesitate to report the facts when a Republican does something wrong. Frankly, I take all the news broadcasters with a big grain of salt. Fox just doesn't seem to varnish things nearly as much as the others.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Nov. 21, 2013 9:55 a.m.

    "The biggest mistake of Mr. Obama's presidency was not winning over any of the opposing party on the central endeavor of his entire presidency, and that is ObamaCare. … Now Mr. Obama is in a fix with no one to help him out."

    Mr Obama had no intention of even trying to win over the GOP. Mr Obama ignorantly assumed he didn't need them. I think what we see in Obama is just a man whom was never meant to govern ...period. The man never governed or led anything in his life ....no experience as a leader and we are all paying for that mistake over and over again.

  • Alex 1 Tucson, AZ
    Nov. 21, 2013 10:53 a.m.

    marxist:

    Over 75% of the casualties in Afghanistan were under the watch of your lord and master, Barack Obama. He and people like you were so indignant at Bush, that when Obama got into office, he ended up allowing 3x as many casualties as Bush ever did, while Obama supporters became curiously silent. I will not be lectured to by leftists over dead Americans.

  • Turtles Run Houston, TX
    Nov. 21, 2013 12:36 p.m.

    Alex 1 wrote: Over 75% of the casualties in Afghanistan were under the watch of your lord and master, Barack Obama.

    First we have Presidents not lord & masters in this nation.

    Second, these wars continued under Obama but he did not start them. So he could not just up and order the troops out of those countries without disastrous result. Results which I am sure would be thrown in his face by the right-wing. Your comments on the war casualties demonstrate you have little knowledge of consequences and seek to use our war dead as a prop to bash a President you do not agree with.

    @ Patriot - Your comments on Fox News made me laugh so hard I think I pulled a muscle.

  • BlueHusky Mission Viejo, CA
    Nov. 21, 2013 8:24 p.m.

    I voted for Goldwater, Reagan, Nixon, Bush I (first term), Bush II (first term). I've voted straight Democratic since Bush II's second term. I'm still a registered Republican. But I despise the GOP today. The Party of Stupid was able to carry only the Confederacy and the government-hating cowboys in Utah, Idaho and Wyoming.

    I campaigned for Romney in 2008. I supported his immigration policy and his healthcare plan. When Obama adopted Romney's plan, I cheerfully switched to campaigning for the moderate Obama. Yes moderate. You GOP stalwarts are on the extreme right wing of American politics. Luckily, you make up only about 25% of the population with the center at 55% and the progressives at about 20% on the left.

    Guess what. Obama won twice. ACA was validated by Obama's victory. The GOP has been actively trying to undo the ACA since it was passed. Whatever happened to Democracy? The Majority of the people voted FOR Obama and the ACA. You lost. Now it's time to get on board and fix the bugs. It is the law of the land. Get over it.

  • John Locke Ivins, , UT
    Nov. 21, 2013 9:56 p.m.

    If "43" lied about Iraq having WMDs, then others did too, including Hilary Clinton and our present Secretary of State, John Kerry. Or else, information that was available to President George W. Bush was withheld from them. I am not sure that that claim was ever made, even by them. They simply called Bush a liar, and now cringe when their president is.

    On the other hand, President Obama told the American people that information about the possibility of the ACA website failing was not made available to him...,the old political stunt of "plausible deniability" in his case, and just about almost anything his administration is the same. But, he must be a good golfer or a scholar, even though that information is withheld from us.

  • wazzup Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 21, 2013 11:39 p.m.

    Kings Court........name one intelligence agency from any country that didn't believe Saddam had WMD's....including the United Nations. That's why resolution after resolution was passed by the security council trying to force Iraq to comply with inspectors. It never happened.

    To say Bush lied, is a lie.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Nov. 22, 2013 7:32 a.m.

    To "BlueHusky" what you say about the ACA could be said about Jim Crow laws, abortion laws, voting laws, and so many other things. If a law is a bad law, we should fight to have it removed regardless of who implemented it, and if the courts have declared it legal.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Nov. 22, 2013 12:32 p.m.

    UN Weapons Inspectors left Iraq 1998.
    Oct 16 2002 Iraq War Resolution
    Nov 27 2002 UN Weapons Inspectors returned to Iraq

    March 7 2003 UN Weapons Inspectors report:

    "There is no indication of resumed nuclear activities in those buildings that were identified through the use of satellite imagery as being reconstructed or newly erected since 1998, nor any indication of nuclear-related prohibited activities at any inspected sites.
    There is no indication that Iraq has attempted to import uranium since 1990.
    There is no indication that Iraq has attempted to import aluminium tubes for use in centrifuge enrichment. Moreover, even had Iraq pursued such a plan, it would have encountered practical difficulties in manufacturing centrifuges out of the aluminium tubes in question.

    After three months of intrusive inspections, we have to date found no evidence or plausible indication of the revival of a nuclear weapons programme in Iraq."
    IAEA Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei

    "Inspections in Iraq resumed, In matters relating to process, we have faced relatively few difficulties...
    How much time would it take to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks? ... It would not take years, nor weeks, but months."
    Hans Blix UN Inspector

    March 20 2003 Iraq War begins

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 23, 2013 3:25 a.m.

    Truthseeker! Stop it. Can't you see they have their fingers in their ears and are sing songing, "nyah nyah nyah we can't hear you."

    There is absolutely no question the Bush administration was trying to make the strongest case possible to go to war with Iraq, even if that meant dismissing what the intelligence community was telling them and out and out lying about Iraq's WMDs.

    Don't believe me? Go research Collin Powell's key speech to the UN, and what the intelligence community was actually telling him about it when they vetted it before he gave it. The intelligence community memos with what they were saying are public record.

  • CBAX Provo, UT
    Nov. 24, 2013 10:05 p.m.

    Good stuff on these boards. People arguing and making good points here and there on different levels. From one point of view or persuasion one view point might be favorable. People with different experiences personal and professional speak about what they think is the best. It goes on and on.

    This is the first time in the while I have come to the political news section on Dnews, and for some reason I feel right at home... oh yea I have been on the BYU/UTAH threads and they are basically the same thing. A bunch of people with different opinions spouting about pointless things.