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My view: Gender identity may change how marriage works

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  • Ranch Here, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 6:30 a.m.

    "If Utah should ever recognize “gender identity” in the code as an acceptable definition of gender — “you are who you say you are” — then what will stop two same-sex people from marrying?"

    Same sex marriages are coming to Utah, Gayle. You'd better get used to the idea, and no, your head won't explode when it does.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 6:51 a.m.

    "California actually passed a law, signed by the governor, allowing students in all grades to choose which bathrooms, dressing rooms or showers they will use, as well as on which sports teams they will play".

    I can't imagine most guys would complain about this.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Nov. 6, 2013 7:06 a.m.

    "...what will stop two same-sex people from marrying? "

    Same-sex marriages will soon be recognized nationwide anyway, so this is a very weak argument against anti-discrimination legislation.

    The issue of GID (Gender Identity Disorder) is complex and confusing, no doubt. However, more people need to understand that people don't just "decide" that they belong to the opposite gender. GID is a very real phenomenon with real biological roots.

    1. GID has been connected to multiple biological factors such as genetics, changes in brains structure, and prenatal exposure to hormones.

    2. GID may occur as frequently as 1 in 500 people.

    3. Most people diagnosed with GID identify experience gender dysphoria before puberty.

    4. Twin studies indicate that GID is 62% heritable, and therefore has a strong genetic influence.

    5. In male-to-female transsexuals, GID is often associated with genetically-induced androgen insensitivity.

    6. Male-to-female transsexuals have been found to have a typically female stria terminalis (part of the brain), while female-to-male transsexuals have a typically male stria terminalis.

    7. In addition, the hypothalamus in male-to-female transsexuals appears to function as a typical woman's does.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Nov. 6, 2013 7:05 a.m.

    Be afraid - be very afraid!

    Here's a novel idea: why not show respect for everyone's dignity, and instead of having communal locker rooms, showers, and bathrooms have areas that are more private? Same sex or different sex, why should anyone be put in a position of being forced to undress, shower, and dress in front of other people? Why are men forced to urinate in front of other men?

    Instead of whining about one or two people who may make us uncomfortable, let's offer everyone dignity and privacy.

    (Oh, and by the way - chances are you would be hard pressed to tell the birth gender of a pre-transition transgender individual at anything short of a shower together. Post-transition, you wouldn't even know then. And opposite sex marriages have been turned into same sex marriages when one spouse comes out and transitions. Those marriages frequently end in divorce since the individuals involved are usually not homosexual.)

  • Zac Ogden, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 7:10 a.m.

    I don not really care about the marriage part. The part that is disgusting is the bathroom and locker room uses. Regardless of what you feel you are, if you have boy parts, use the boys restroom. If you have girl parts, use the girls restroom.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 8:38 a.m.

    Gayle, nothing in utah should stop two same sex people from marrying, except whatever age or other legal requirements there are to be met.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Nov. 6, 2013 8:53 a.m.

    "The Arcadia Unified School District and the U.S. Department of Education have reached an agreement to end an investigation into allegations of discrimination against a transgender student.

    The student, who has attended Arcadia schools since kindergarten and is now entering ninth grade, has identified as a boy from a young age, according to the agency. He began the transition to living as a male during fifth grade.

    In 2011, the Department of Justice received complaints alleging that during the boy’s sixth and seventh grade years, the district did not allow the student to use boys' restrooms and locker rooms.

    The complaints also alleged that during a district-sponsored overnight camp, the student was not allowed to stay in a cabin with male students and was instead required to stay in a cabin separate from all his classmates."
    (LA Times)

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 8:54 a.m.

    November is Transgender Awareness Month, a month intended to cultivate empathy, dispel inaccurate stereotypes, and improve understanding of a widely misunderstood community. How fitting that the DesNews chose to observe the month with an op-ed that does none of these and only perpetuates ignorance and stigmatization.

    By the way, Ms. Ruzicka is over a decade late with her fears about marriage. In 1999, a transgendered woman from Tooele married a genetic woman, using and old drivers license that still listed her as male. This would be Utah's first recognized same-sex marriage (to the best of my knowledge).

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 9:00 a.m.

    Its only common sense that men should only be allowed in men's restrooms, and females in females in restroom.

    And people don't decide their gender any more than I can decide I am a flying purple dinosaur. There is a big big difference between what someone IS, and what someone THINKS they are.

    I may think I am a flying purple dinosaur.

    Or a piano.

    But I am not.

  • Sal Provo, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 9:01 a.m.

    Contraius, you state that people don't just decide which gender they are. A sexual predator would in order to gain access to a girls' restroom or shower facility.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 9:03 a.m.

    On the front page of ABC News today there is a story of a man who thinks he is a dog.

    It is very similar to people who have been deemed one gender by competent medical professionals, disagree under they claims they think/feel they are a different gender.

    No difference.

    A man in a dress is a man in a dress

    A man who has asked doctors to alter his physical anatomy is a man who has asked a doctor to alter his physical anatomy.

    People born men and claim to be women are no more women than this man from the ABC news story is a dog.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Nov. 6, 2013 9:09 a.m.

    People are jobless,
    People are homeless,
    People are starving,
    People are dying,
    The rich get richer,
    The poor are getting poorer,

    And Gayle is afraid of the 1 in 10,000 chance a transgendered person might - MIGHT - be occupying the stall next to us.

  • Sorry Charlie! SLC, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 9:33 a.m.

    Its so nice of Gayle and Chris to provide the willfully naive point of view of a very serious and complex issue.

  • Danny Chipman Lehi, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 9:40 a.m.

    XX and XY bathrooms. Easy enough solution.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 9:45 a.m.

    Heh, don't worry Gayle, considering the article about the defense of Utah's marriage amendment that would definitely be rejected by the court if that's all they have, same-sex marriage may not be far away anyway. Then the gender identity thing for marriage won't matter.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Nov. 6, 2013 9:48 a.m.

    Thinking here for a minute....

    So, it's OK for a homosexual dressing or undressing in the presences of those he/she already finds sexually attrative.

    and yet - a transgended dressing or undressing around those they are NOT attracted to [and therefor NOT tempted] by?

    If this is about sexual temptations or exploitation -- then Gayle is missing it.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Nov. 6, 2013 9:56 a.m.

    @Sal --

    "A sexual predator would in order to gain access to a girls' restroom or shower facility."

    That's part of the "complex and confusing" issue.

    People with GID have real biological bases for their gender dysphoria. It isn't even remotely related to Chris deciding that he's Barnie. Nonetheless, it is also true that some people -- like your hypothetical sexual predator -- might take advantage of some anti-discrimination legislation, depending on how carefully it's written.

    Nobody has all the answers, and there is no perfect solution. But dealing with the issue in a rational way requires that we recognize GID as a real issue, and not merely dinosaur fantasies.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    Nov. 6, 2013 10:03 a.m.

    What gender someone thinks they are is subjective. Their anatomy is objective.
    I feel poor, can I skip paying my taxes?

    What if Bob, the pedophile, decides to self-identify as a female on Tuesday so he goes into the girl's dressing room. As Chris said, it is common sense. Everyone else has a willfully naive point of view of what is going to happen.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 10:25 a.m.

    How many of you actually segregate your bathrooms in your home? How many have a separate one for the boys and girls?

    This really is a non-issue.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Nov. 6, 2013 10:28 a.m.

    @Tekakaromatagi --

    "Their anatomy is objective."

    That is often not true.

    There are many causes and degrees of "intersex" conditions. Some of them are readily apparent on physical exam, and some are not.

    According to the Intersex Society of North America, roughly 1 in 1500 to 2000 babies have enough ambiguity in their physical appearance that a specialist in sexual differentiation has to be called in. Roughly 1 or 2 in every 1000 babies require surgery to make their physical appearance closer to "normal" expectations, and roughly 1 in every 100 have some noticeable difference from "typical" appearance.

    And that's only the intersex conditions that cause **external, visible** changes. Many other conditions cause only internal changes, which may *never* be detected without specialized testing.

    As for the chromosomes -- roughly 1 in 1700 babies is neither XX nor XY. About 1 in 1000 is XXY, and some are XO. And there are other chromosomal abnormalities as well.

    One recent well-known example is Steve Crecelius. Steve is a former cop and father of five. A few years ago he went into the hospital for an unrelated problem. Ultrasound exam for that problem discovered that "he" has ovaries and a uterus.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 10:37 a.m.

    @danny chipman

    your right that would be an easy solution however like most overly simplistic solutions it fails to address a the complex reality. Focusing on only chromosomes ignores the entire body system involved in developing gender including hormones and brain development among other factors such as the fact that chromosomes are not always so neatly organized.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Nov. 6, 2013 10:46 a.m.

    We don't need or have "Boy" port-a-potties
    and
    seperate "Girl" port-a-potties.

    It's either occupied or it isn't.

    So, What's the big deal again?

  • Hemlock Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 10:56 a.m.

    The arguments stated above are similar to the 6 blind men examining an elephant. All of them stated the truth as they perceived it and yet none of them described reality. We are still waiting for a coherent and equitable approach to the issue.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 11:21 a.m.

    "Change how marriage works"? Like women in the kitchen while the men relax?

  • BostonLDS Salt lake City, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 11:29 a.m.

    My college had co-ed bathrooms. There were separate stalls for everything. The shower stalls locked. I honestly didn't have one problem with it. It made me a bit uncomfortable at first, but once the novelty wore off, I couldn't have cared less.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 11:35 a.m.

    Danny Chipman
    Lehi, UT
    XX and XY bathrooms. Easy enough solution.

    9:40 a.m. Nov. 6, 2013

    ==========

    Since it's such an "Easy enough solution"
    You be sure to have those XX, XY scanners installed on each and every bathroom.

  • E Sam Provo, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 12:03 p.m.

    So it's okay for an employer to fire someone without cause, so Ms. Ruzicka can be absolutely certain she's not using a bathroom with a transgender person?

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 12:34 p.m.

    It sounds like it is time for a "Gender Confused" bathroom/locker room. Set up a bathroom or locker room with whatever equipment would be needed to accomodate boys who think they are girls or girls that think they are boys, or boys that say they identify as female that just want to peek at girls in their underwear, or girls that want to see boys in their briefs so they say they identify as male, or for boys and girls that are exhibitionists. Let them get their freak on in their own corner.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 1:26 p.m.

    Ya know,
    I watched M*A*S*H for years.

    Why can't Gayle and the rest just deal with these situations the same way they did back at the good old 4077th with Cpl Max Klinger?

    He's not crazy, so they just ignore it and get along with life the best they can.

  • djhartm Raleigh, NC
    Nov. 6, 2013 1:39 p.m.

    Oh the liberals like Contrarious are here attempting to justify the absurdity of 'gender identity' legislation, a pillar of the radical LGBT agenda, with straw-man arguments and spurious facts designed to portray this as a legitimate & valid problem all of us should be deeply concerned with.

    Nonsense.

    Once again, a tiny minority of activists are attempting to push the perceived 'needs' of a statistically insignificant number of people on the many, forcing society to bend over backwards to accommodate them. The grand social experiment penned by liberals is doomed for failure.

    This is hardly a complex issue, it is a non-issue.

    Men are men (or should be) and women are women. Those few that have problems believing their own biological make-up need nothing more than a firm kick in the seat of their pants, not being given a green card to live-out their perverted fantasy at the expense of everyone else.

    Enough is enough!

  • Binder Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 1:46 p.m.

    Dear Gayle: This is a good op-ed, and you've made your case well. Thank you for your courage on these issues.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Nov. 6, 2013 1:56 p.m.

    @djhartm --

    "Men are men (or should be) and women are women. Those few that have problems believing their own biological make-up need nothing more than a firm kick in the seat of their pants, not being given a green card to live-out their perverted fantasy at the expense of everyone else."

    Never let a few inconvenient facts get in the way of a good prejudice, right?

    ;-)

    Here's a few simple questions for you:

    1. If a person has XXY chromosomes, is that person a male or a female?

    2. If a person has XO chromosomes, is that person a male or a female?

    3. If a person has ovaries and a uterus, but also has testes and other male parts that I can't mention here on DN, is that person a male or a female?

    4. If a person has the brain of a female and the body of a male, is that person male or female?

    5. If your own brain were transplanted into a woman's body, would you still perceive yourself as male, or would you perceive yourself to be female?

    The issue isn't nearly as simple as you would like to believe.

  • djhartm Raleigh, NC
    Nov. 6, 2013 1:59 p.m.

    LDS Liberal,Yes equating the nonsense attempting to be ushered in via SSM & 'gender identity' with a fictitious television show is a strong argument to simply ignore it.

    LOL!

    Fail.

    And, SSM is not coming to UT anytime soon, despite what the liberals want so desperately for you to believe.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 2:01 p.m.

    BTW --

    Isn't the LDS church's offical stance on this issue not how one "idenfies" him/herself,
    but on how they act on it, sexually?

    Again -- it seems Gayle is crying crocodile tears.
    It's a moot point, ever for us Mormons.

  • CHS 85 Sandy, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 3:29 p.m.

    "In Utah, American Fork High School included anti-discrimination language in its Gay-Straight Alliance club policy."

    Heaven forbid! Call the School Board! We can't have anti-discrimination going on in American Fork, Utah!

  • gmlewis Houston, TX
    Nov. 6, 2013 3:59 p.m.

    The anti-discrimination law has two facets. Of course we should be equal in hiring folks regardless of gender identity (assuming they are capable of the job's requirements). However, the requirement to provide special accommodations is the challenge. Providing a "single-use" bathroom for those who don't want to use their "normal gender" restroom is something I've seen in hospitals and some businesses. Perhaps the same could be provided for showers in schools and work.

    However, the best thing I've read in these comments is the suggestion to transform all the restrooms and showers into booth structures that maximize privacy.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 4:17 p.m.

    @djhartm;

    When you are one of the "statistically insignificant number" of people affected, it is not insignificant to you.

    @DN Moderators:

    djhartm's comment that these people "..need nothing more than a firm kick in the seat of their pants,..." is hate speech and advocates violence against transgendered people. It violates your rules for comments and should be removed.

  • Wastintime Los Angeles, CA
    Nov. 6, 2013 4:23 p.m.

    One of my coworkers crossed over from female to male. It was not a big deal. In fact it wasn't a deal at all. Nobody cares. He walks into the men's room, goes into the stall, etc. If I'm in there I say hello to him and don't give it a second thought. I do this because I am a well adjusted adult with real worries and issues and not an immature uptight person choosing to hassle people who don't deserve it.

    Many of the comments above are totally absurd. If you have not personally experienced this situation, IMHO you lack perspective and should withhold judgment until you do have perspective.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Nov. 6, 2013 5:07 p.m.

    My husband had firsthand experience with this issue at work. A female co-worker, "Joan" whom he had worked with for a few years began to undergo her transformation (not surgical) to "John." Human Resources convened a meeting and informed the dept. than Joan was now going to known as "John" and would be using the men's restroom. So, whenever "John" needed to use the restroom, he would simply go into the bathroom stall and close the door. No big deal. Life continued as it was before.

    While traveling in Europe my husband has had the experience of using the restroom while a cleaning lady was mopping the floor directly next to him.

    I've been in coed restrooms in Europe. The bathroom stalls were like little closets with full length locking doors. Men and women would go in the "closet" tske care of their business and wash up in the common sink area afterwards. Actually this set-up has advantages. Women don't have to wait in long longs to use the women's bathroom while the men's is nearly empty. Additionally, mothers and fathers can accompany their opposite sex children into the bathroom.

  • SG in SLC Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 5:20 p.m.

    This is, indeed, a complicated issue that is further complicated by blending facts and emotions.

    I'm honestly surprised, though, that nobody has commented on Gayle throwing Sen. Urquhart under the bus (and to a lesser extent, the "two Republican senators, both in leadership positions" who voted for the bill). I'm pretty sure that was the real motive behind the article. Oh, using an anecdotal appeal to emotion to stir up the masses was icing on the cake, but her op-ed was certainly a clarion call to her base to start mobilizing now to come at these state senators from the right. That's her M.O., and this article was probably every bit as effective as her notorious "phone tree".

  • charlyk salt lake city, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 9:48 p.m.

    Chris B--you seem very unwilling to step outside your box and realize that maybe there are people out there who you might not understand. So you think that there is a difference between what someone thinks they are and what they actually are? Remember that for yourself, there may be a difference between a person who thinks they are a good person and someone who actually is.

  • Badgerbadger Murray, UT
    Nov. 6, 2013 10:47 p.m.

    My cat thinks it is human. It won't eat cat food, it only eats human food.

    There are places that don't permit cats, but my cat should be permitted because he thinks he is human. He should be welcome in restaurants, stores, hospitals, churches, schools, etc. To not allow my cat in is discriminatory and just plain wrong.

    RedShirt from USS Enterprise, Danny, and Chris B. WELL STATED! and thanks for the laughs.

    To those actually defending the opposing view, thanks for the laughs too.

  • SG in SLC Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 7, 2013 8:02 a.m.

    @Badgerbadger

    I see what you did there, but I'll play along, just for giggles . . .

    While I'm sure your cat is absolutely wonderful, I'm afraid that it isn't a fully sentient being, and the assumption that it thinks it's human is really just you projecting anthropomorphic characteristics onto it (I would bet my lunch money that cats don't think in human words, so there is no, "I'm human!" going on there). In a nutshell, your equating animal rights and animal self-determination with anti-discrimination rights for at-risk human demographics is deeply flawed on a number of levels.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Nov. 7, 2013 8:03 a.m.

    @Badgerbadger --

    "My cat thinks it is human. It won't eat cat food, it only eats human food."

    Now if you can just show that your cat has any of the genetic, physical, or neural characteristics of a human, you might have a point.

    Until then, you have none at all.

  • Lilly Munster netherlands, 00
    Nov. 7, 2013 9:22 a.m.

    This is a Fear Based opinion steeped in Control Issues. There is NO example of any school child who FAKED his/her gender identity just to "peek" at the opposite sex. These are always individual cases, reasoned and counseled by the parents and the School Administrators, Doctors and Psychiatrists, in PRIVATE. No child can FAKE gender identity. Who would volunteer for the Scorn, Physical Abuse, and Vile Treatment by their Peers? Right. No one. Let the parents, child and School decide. No one is throwing naked little kids together for kicks.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 7, 2013 9:54 a.m.

    Badgerbadger
    Murray, UT
    My cat thinks it is human. It won't eat cat food, it only eats human food.

    ==========

    Cats are not protect by the United States Constitution.
    People are.

    As for gender,
    Gender per se is never mentioned or defined in the Constituion,
    However, Women are never mentioned.
    Do you want to now argue that Women are not protected under the Constitution because they are not mention specifically, or can we agree it is inferred?

    And if Women, and Blacks, and Asians, and Old, and sick, and dis-abled, Jews, Mormons, are also inferred as being equaly protect -- why not LGBT?

    Cats don't fit into any of those categories.
    Interesting side note -- because some of us bleeding heart liberals also feel responsible to defend cats and ALL of God's creations.

  • J. S. Houston, TX
    Nov. 7, 2013 12:15 p.m.

    "Employers under this anti-discrimination law will have to allow men or women to shower, etc."?

    Gayle, you must have mixed this federal bill with California AB 1266, take some time to read this federal bill before you jump to such a ridiculous conclusion.

  • Badgerbadger Murray, UT
    Nov. 7, 2013 1:08 p.m.

    It would be easier to eliminate all public restrooms than to meet these demands. But the government requires every business to have a restroom with wheelchair access, etc etc etc.

    I guess we go with one restroom with a single toilet and a lock on the door, no stall, so everyone can be protected while using the bathroom, and there will never be another child or woman or man attacked in a restroom.

    Deniers, there are many many many attacks in public use bathrooms.

  • Noodlekaboodle Poplar Grove, UT
    Nov. 7, 2013 1:14 p.m.

    As a man I don't see why this matters at all. If someone who is biologicly a woman, but identifies as a man wants to use the stalls in the same bathroom i'm in I don't care even a little bit.

  • MitchK South Weber, UT
    Nov. 7, 2013 1:18 p.m.

    Contrarius brings up some very real statistics. These are accurate and well stated. Unfortunately many/most people are unaware of intersex people because we have systematically eliminated them form society with a shroud of secrecy and surgical mutilation to create something "normal" that people can accept. It is ludicrous to state that this is a small, minute, minority...that should be ignored. If LGBT people are 10% ish of the population, and Intersex babies are 1 in 100 (5 surgeries a day are being performed in the US to alter these people) and we don't even count those who must remain in the closet for safety reason...I'm sorry but I don't call this a minute, insignificant number of people. It's big! How can we deny rights to this many people?? Until you have lived close to people in this population you cannot understand. Signed, Mother of a transgender teen, and daughter of a lesbian mother (BTW I was not raised by my mother, because she was taken away from me, in case someone assumed that she influenced any of my views).

  • RFLASH Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 7, 2013 2:26 p.m.

    I couldn't even finish this article, it was so offensive to me! What a filthy mind this person has! This is part of the problem. When it comes to gay people or transgender people, people have a tendency to think about the most filthy things! What nerve! I am tired of the filthy things people imply! Good Mormons who are quick to point out how sacred their lives and marriages are! I don't imagine that any of them would appreciate somebody thinking about their intimate lives and what they do sexually and all the other garbage that people dwell on when they talk about us!Your dirty, filthy thoughts are your own and if you took time to know a few people, you would understand that it doesn't work that way! Don't worry, I am sure they are not going into the bathroom to do something filthy. This stinks!

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Nov. 7, 2013 2:37 p.m.

    Question for you
    Badgerbadger
    Murray, UT
    10:47 p.m. Nov. 6, 2013

    --

    If cats are spade or neutered,
    Are they still Cats?

    BTW, one other thing...thanks for the laughs.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Nov. 7, 2013 3:38 p.m.

    @Badgerbadger --

    "Deniers, there are many many many attacks in public use bathrooms."

    Including attacks against transgendered people.

    2012 -- A transgendered woman was slashed with a straight razor at a fast food restaurant after using the women's bathroom, by a guy shouting anti-gay slurs.

    Between January 2010 and 2012 -- "Statistics on such incidents are hard to come by, but a staffer for the Chelsea-based Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund said that since January 2010, the group has fielded 89 calls from around the country from transgender people who were barred from using the restroom of their choice or had acts of violence committed against them when they tried to do so. More than half of these calls were made from New York City, TLDEF staffer Noah Lewis said. "

    "And more than half of participants in a 2011 study conducted by the National Center for Transgender Equality and National Gay and Lesbian Task Force reported being harassed in public accommodations like restaurants, stores, hotels and hospitals. "

    "Nearly 10 percent reported being physically attacked. "

    Attacks in bathrooms only make a stronger argument for building safer bathrooms -- not for keeping transgendered people out of them.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Nov. 7, 2013 3:53 p.m.

    @ Badgerbadger: You are absolutely right - people in public restrooms are attacked, molested, spied upon - so any claims that this legislation will create those situations are red-herrings.

    As for Chris B thinking he is a dinosaur or a cat thinking it is human - such claims show a clear lack of knowledge and understanding of this issue. Additionally, Chris' on-going references to thinking he is a dinosaur are mocking in tone to individuals who do have serious mental health issues, and should not be allowed on this thread as they not only muddy the waters by mixing two separate issues, but are rude and insulting.

  • Stenar Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 7, 2013 6:03 p.m.

    The Deseret News used to be a quality newspaper, reporting the news, but it's gone to the dogs.

  • David Centerville, UT
    Nov. 7, 2013 10:22 p.m.

    To Open Minded Mormon

    People are jobless,
    People are homeless,
    People are starving,
    People are dying,
    The rich get richer,
    The poor are getting poorer,

    And people are worrying about legalizing a process for a boy to use the girls bathroom or locker room because he "thinks" he is a girl? What a waste of time.

  • Copy Cat Murray, UT
    Nov. 7, 2013 11:23 p.m.

    Kalindra- "such claims show a clear lack of knowledge and understanding of this issue."

    No. A person can be completely knowledgeable and understanding of something and still not be a believer.

    From the posts it looks like the believers and non-believers are about evenly split. No need to insult the other half. They just believe differently. Show some tolerance!

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Nov. 8, 2013 8:40 a.m.

    @Copy Cat --

    "From the posts it looks like the believers and non-believers are about evenly split. No need to insult the other half. They just believe differently. Show some tolerance!"

    People have every right to believe as they wish.

    But people do NOT have any right to make something up and pretend that it's fact.

  • Copy Cat Murray, UT
    Nov. 8, 2013 10:39 a.m.

    "But people do NOT have any right to make something up and pretend that it's fact."

    au contraire Contrar---

    You do it all the time. For example 1 in 10 people is homosexual, a huge lie you present as a fact, which is not true in the general population, but only in very select communities.

    And there is a huge difference between presenting an obvious parody (dinosaur, cat) and pretending false numbers are 'facts'. The former parodies have no intent to deceive, but falsified stats have every intent to deceive.

  • hnoel Layton, UT
    Nov. 8, 2013 10:48 a.m.

    It's a very thorny issue. It seems we are frequently faced with thorny issues we need to address. And we will. Mrs. Ruzicka has raised a question that needs discussing as well. My concern is that I see within her writings and pronouncements that her approach to this issue is completely devoid of compassion. Until we get there, all we do is argue.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Nov. 8, 2013 11:19 a.m.

    @Copy Cat --

    "You do it all the time."

    Nope.

    "1 in 10 people is homosexual, a huge lie you present as a fact"

    I have never said any such thing.

    In reality, best estimates indicate that roughly 5% of the population is LGBT. That's 1 in 20. I have cited that number many times, because it's true.

    Please -- if you're going to accuse me of lying about something, or even of just getting my facts wrong, at least have some evidence to back up your accusations.

    "And there is a huge difference between presenting an obvious parody (dinosaur, cat) and pretending false numbers are 'facts'. "

    The "parodies", as you put it, set forth by folks like Chris and Badgerbadger, imply (or claim outright) that transsexuals are comparable to people who imagine themselves to be dinosaurs -- or cats who imagine themselves to be people. In reality, there are many factually provable reasons why such comparisons are false. And since several of those reasons have been presented to Chris and Badgerbadger multiple times already, one is left with the inescapable conclusion that they are intentionally putting forth false claims of comparison, knowing them to be false.

  • Samson01 S. Jordan, UT
    Nov. 8, 2013 2:47 p.m.

    Re:Open Minded Mormon

    Don't you have jobless, homeless, starving, dying, rich, and poor people to think about?

  • MitchK South Weber, UT
    Nov. 8, 2013 4:59 p.m.

    There are many different conflicting statistics out there as to how many people are LGBT. Kinsey's reports suggested that 10% reported being gay. Other statistics say 2-5%. But, we are talking about transgender here, which estimates to be another 2-5% of the population. If you add those numbers together you get 4-10%. Then the bisexual piece is added, and I found statistics anywhere from .07 to 4%, or Kinsey's numbers of 37% of men and 13% of women. Who knows how accurate any of these numbers are for sure because people who are LGBT are afraid for their safety and livelihood to come out and say. There is surely a very large number of this community that is under reporting. My point is no matter how many people there are, they are all people, and we cannot deny rights and protections to anyone. Everyone deserves the same human rights.

  • MitchK South Weber, UT
    Nov. 8, 2013 5:30 p.m.

    Whether anyone believes the validity of whether a person is transgender or not, these people are still out there, and historically always have been. You don't have to understand it, or believe it. If people don't feel comfortable with a trans person using the regular facilities then provide a gender neutral bathroom/shower, that serves gender neutral people and families. Many of us would never recognize most trans people anyway.

  • Smitty1400 Cedar Hills, UT
    Nov. 10, 2013 10:39 a.m.

    It is obvious that many people who comment here have not read the entire article nor have they pondered the consequences. Having a private stall, or cubicle, or porta-pottie is NOT the real issue. The issue as to do with no doors, not cubicle, NO privacy situations, especially showers. And for the record, any lawmaker regardless of party identifications who introduces or supports this nonsense should be removed as quickly as possible, shame on the voters for voting for them.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Nov. 11, 2013 7:33 a.m.

    @Smitty1400 --

    "Having a private stall, or cubicle, or porta-pottie is NOT the real issue. The issue as to do with no doors, not cubicle, NO privacy situations, especially showers. "

    Why should ANYONE be forced into no-privacy situations?

    This seems to be a failure in locker room construction rather than an actual problem with admitting transgendered people.

  • Charlemagne Salt Lake City, Utah
    Nov. 13, 2013 8:14 a.m.

    I liked the comment Michael Medved made on his radio show about the California law. I suspect that there are a bunch of high school boys in California saying to themselves 'I wonder how many days I will have to wear a dress before I can check out the girls locker room?'"

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Nov. 13, 2013 1:13 p.m.

    @Charlemagne --

    "I suspect that there are a bunch of high school boys in California saying to themselves 'I wonder how many days I will have to wear a dress before I can check out the girls locker room?'""

    Do you really think that any high school boy will be willing to expose himself to the ridicule of his entire class by calling himself a girl, just so he can switch bathrooms?

    Seriously??