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At BYU, Baptist says Mormons and evangelicals 'may go to jail together'

10 years later, Ravi Zacharias to speak at Mormon Tabernacle again

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  • MoJules Florissant, MO
    Oct. 21, 2013 8:48 p.m.

    I am so glad that churches are working together on what things they share and believe, we need religious unity and harmony to fight off the evils of the world that are becoming stronger and stronger.

  • The Caravan Moves On Enid, OK
    Oct. 21, 2013 9:10 p.m.

    This Baptist minister is 100% right:

    It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, ie, before the Savior of the world returns.

    May we each, no matter our unique sects and branches of God-fearing religion, keep the faith that God has given us.

    Good luck....

  • Way of the Warrior Arlington, WA
    Oct. 21, 2013 9:53 p.m.

    "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" = a sandy foundation on which to build a bond or friendship.

  • Ett Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 21, 2013 11:20 p.m.

    I'm glad to see these two groups working together. We seem to have long forgotten that the First Amendment states Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of a religion or (more importantly)prohibiting the free practice thereof. When you examine it pragmatically, separation of Church and State (which is not in the Constitution itself) means stopping anyone from practicing their religion, even on government property, is a clear violation of the First Amendment. Of course those who blindly devoted to the alleged separation clause choose to conveniently ignore that part of the Constitution.

  • HappyHeathen Puyallu, Wa.
    Oct. 22, 2013 12:57 a.m.

    Playing the victim card because religion can’t be the tail that wags the dog of government. Simple as the nose on your face.

    Jim n' Puyallup

  • mountainlocal Brooklyn, NY
    Oct. 22, 2013 1:37 a.m.

    Religious liberty is not going anywhere. It is protected under the First Amendment. I am not worried the government will lock the doors to my church. I am not worried they will censor church leaders. The only law he came up with, was two states banned mental health workers from saying homosexuality is wrong. Again, how is this imposing on what I believe? I can teach my children what I choose and so can the leaders from the pulpit. It may be unpopular but it's not illegal.

    I think young kids are leaving the dogma of these types because the message of fear isn't resonating with them. If the strategy doesn't change, younger generations will keep leaving. Are things really worse than they were in the sixties? Most have better lives, more opportunities, more freedoms, and greater access to information. I don't think the sky is falling. Maybe I'm wrong.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 5:16 a.m.

    " "… only those with the deepest beliefs and even the deepest differences can help each other against the encroaching threat to religious liberty, marriage and the family."

    ---

    Wolf, wolf, wolf.

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 5:30 a.m.

    My top 10 words are; you, me, give, God, love, beauty, earth, compassion, gratitude and justice. I think we can unintentionally, intentionally do things because of belief. Blinded by greed or any of the 7 deadly sins. The spirit of things [you matter] or the golden rule can be unintentionally changed to you by evil, that wants that to be the spirit of things, than you don't matter any more. No more smiles, betrayed, by lies.

  • mdp Bountiful, utah
    Oct. 22, 2013 6:26 a.m.

    ...that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that "they draw near to me with their lips but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form or godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

  • BrentBot Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 6:54 a.m.

    The Emperor Constantine introduced the term, homoousious , which defined the Son as “consubstantial” (one being) with the Father. Neither term or anything like it is in the New Testament. Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”

  • What in Tucket? Provo, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 6:58 a.m.

    In this day and age Christians as well as Buddhists, Hindus and many other religions must stand together to thwart the global jihad. Evangelicals have been very successful in Africa and South America to my understanding and I appreciate their missionary efforts. Mormons have a right to their own beliefs, but must stand with other Christians such as the Coptics in Egypt.

  • OnlytheCross Bakersfield, CA
    Oct. 22, 2013 7:06 a.m.

    True, a sandy foundation, but Mohler stated up front 'we're not going to the same heaven together'. At least he doesn't do squishy, feel-good friendship that downplays the divide.

    The Biblical Cross and Calvary separates our theological message from Joseph's Gethsemane and "After all we can do" rewrite.

    Mohler will keep the important distinctives crystal clear. It isn't the evangelicals who seek to be accepted into the LDS camp. As long as we're clear on our Gospel differences, friendship and fighting for good causes is possible.

  • elarue NEW YORK, NY
    Oct. 22, 2013 7:19 a.m.

    This is preposterous! Religious liberty is _not_ under attack in America, and it's right wingers that are trying to paint themselves as victims of attacks on religious liberty in order to try to scare Americans into subscribing to their agenda, which is far more threatening to the family than anything they're trying to scare us about. Even if gay marriage becomes legal, no one is going to force churches to perform them, and we need to stop acting like they are, or we're going to find ourselves threatened by something far more dangerous to our families - Paul Ryan's budget!

  • mpschmitt Boston, MA
    Oct. 22, 2013 7:33 a.m.

    In the United States, as I read American history, we are living in the greatest period of freedom and toleration that this country (and perhaps this world) has ever seen. We are very fortunate. Not every modern nation is so fortunate.

    Yes, this also means that perspectives and doctrines that differ from our own will likewise have a voice and may gain adherents. That's what happens when you have a truly free marketplace of ideas. There will always be voices in every movement that seek to silence contrary opinions, but general decency and fairness (and the rule of law) will eventually prevail over such extreme views (at least for the time being). We ought to enjoy the sunshine while we have it as President Hinckley counseled us many years ago and let our light so shine before men that they may see our good works and glorify God.

    "The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent..." (History of the Church, 4:540).

  • sigmund5 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 7:37 a.m.

    Let's see we have a racial and religious majority that runs the government (you can't be an atheist and be a politician) claiming it is being persecuted by a minority and this minority is threatening "our way of life" by appealing to fear and this is pure ignorance...sounds like Germany in the 1930's. This going to jail or any persecution is utter nonsense.

  • Red Headed Stranger Billy Bobs, TX
    Oct. 22, 2013 7:43 a.m.

    Mr. Mohler, when you say "I believe that salvation comes only to those who believe and trust only in Christ and in his substitutionary atonement for salvation." What makes you think that Mormons do not believe that?

    As a "card carrying" Mormon, allow me to quote from the LDS Book of Scripture called the Doctrine and Covenants. In it, we believe that Christ Himself is speaking to Joseph Smith. He says:

    " 4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;

    5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life." DC 45:4-5

    I do not know where you got the false impression that Mormons do not believe in the atonement of Christ. We may have differences of opinion on the importance of Greek Philosophy on the nature of God, but never doubt that Mormons believe that the Son of God Jesus Christ willingly gave His life so we could find mercy.

  • JD Jones Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 7:46 a.m.

    The persecution complex among the religious is irrational.

  • Red Headed Stranger Billy Bobs, TX
    Oct. 22, 2013 7:46 a.m.

    From the Book of Mormon, the missionary Amulek illustrates the LDS belief in, as you put it, "substitutionary atonement": (slightly edited for space)

    8. . . Behold, I . . . know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; . . .

    9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; . . .

    10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, . . . but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

    . . .

    14 . . . and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

    15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; . . ., to bring about . . . mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.

    16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, Alma 34:8-16

  • J-TX Allen, TX
    Oct. 22, 2013 7:47 a.m.

    elarue: You are on the wrong side of every point you make here. Truly yours is the voice of the World. The mere fact that a non-believer takes the time to comment on religious articles such as this and in this way is the very evidence against your arguments.

    Onlythecross: Interesting that those who most loudly decry Mormonism as a man-made theology desperately cling to and fly the banner of a trinitarian doctrine clearly created by men in the 3rd Century.

  • thebigsamoan Richmond, VA
    Oct. 22, 2013 7:52 a.m.

    The war on God, faith, and religion will continue to wage on because Satan never sleeps but in the end, God will prevail and justice will be served to all accordingly. As far as heaven is concern, we may not all go there hand in hand but we will all be there. Religious affiliation doesn't matter, whether you're Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, Mormon, atheist, or whatever! All will be saved in heaven because that's the free gift afforded to all through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Now as to what level or degree of glory in heaven one gets depends on how valiant our efforts were while on the earth as far as keeping and obeying the commandments of God. Thus heaven is not a place where all will share and share alike as many believes. Each will receive his due rewards according to his own deeds and works done while alive here on earth. Only those who have received the fullness of the gospel and are found worthy and valiant in their testimony of the Savior, are destined for exaltation in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom in heaven.

  • Susan in VA Alexandria, VA
    Oct. 22, 2013 7:57 a.m.

    Having been a Baptist in another life.... I find this so scary that it may drive me from the Church I love.

  • Lilly Munster netherlands, 00
    Oct. 22, 2013 8:25 a.m.

    Why would anyone celebrate a commonality of having the same biases; believing that Our Constitution is limited to religious prejudices, and available to ONLY some people? Marriage is, has been, and will always be a State function in the United States. Are you prepared to bow to Catholic Doctrine when Latino Catholics dominate this nation? (and they will) If you advocate religious beliefs affecting civil marriage, then prepare to bow to the Vatican.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 8:26 a.m.

    I don't know about going to jail together but they're both wasting a lot of time and energy.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 8:30 a.m.

    "Going to get worse"
    Why do religious people continue to state that falsehood?
    There isn't any way shape or form in which society is worse now than it was in biblical times.
    I challenge anyone to name a past culture of civilization that treats other humans better than our current one.
    Aside from irrational wars in far away lands, we are so much better off than we've ever been.
    2,000 years ago 97% of the Jewish people were illiterate. The life expectancy was half what it is now. Diseases that are now treatable of even gone were rampant.
    It is a complete falsehood that people and societies are getting worse. It's not even debatable.

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Oct. 22, 2013 8:32 a.m.

    J-TX,

    Just as a matter of clarification, the year 325 is the fourth century.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 8:35 a.m.

    It seems people are opposing pulpit oppression regardless of where it comes from. There's no nobility in claiming victim status because your old power is waning, but I guess some comfort in the idea it's affecting others who used to get away with it, as well.

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 8:37 a.m.

    Is it just me or are Religious institutions like the squirrelly little brat in every neighborhood who starts a lions share of the trouble?

    Then, when others challenge him, he runs and hides screaming blue murder all the way.

  • rushc centerville, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 8:44 a.m.

    "Wolf, wolf, wolf."

    In sheep's clothing, in sheep's clothing, in sheep's clothing...

  • elarue NEW YORK, NY
    Oct. 22, 2013 8:48 a.m.

    J-TX: You assume, just because I say that religious liberty is _not_ under attack in America, that I am a non-believer? I am a temple recommend holding member of the church. The fact that just because I sound "liberal," you assume that I'm non-religious is, contrary to your claim, proof that I'm spot on. It is also proof that church members' collective addiction to conservativism is the worst thing that could happen to the church, and we should denounce it outright.

  • From Ted's Head Orem, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 8:49 a.m.

    I find it odd that detractors object to churches attempting to protect their religious liberty from future attacks. It's not hard to see the hatred that some hold towards organized religion, and it's not irrational to think that those same people would press forward to take part in destroying organized religion if they could. That they represent a minority is true...however we can see with the gay agenda that a vocal minority can sway enough of the majority to achieve its goals. It won't be mobs and tar-and-featherings...it will happen in court. The LDS Church and others will continue to call homosexual intimacy a sin--even after it is the law of the land--and the gay community and its supporters will seek to silence or punish their critics for this "hate crime" against a protected class. An additional liberal to SCOTUS and religion's freedom of speech will be curtailed. Churches will defy the new laws and will lose their tax benefits, right to assemble, and their leaders jailed as God is removed from American government. Not next year or even in ten years...but possible within a generation.

  • andrew h Twin Falls, ID
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:01 a.m.

    "You have confused a war on religion with not getting everything you want." –Jon Stewart

  • elarue NEW YORK, NY
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:05 a.m.

    From Ted's Head - why do we object to churches trying to "protect" religious liberty? Because they are claiming that their religious liberty is under attack as a means to assault other people's religious liberty. Religious liberty is meant to be for all Americans (yes, even those who choose to practice no religion), not just a select few who view their religion as superior to others. Which is, incidently, why we have the 1st amendment in the first place.

  • teeoh Anytown, KY
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:12 a.m.

    @Hank Pym

    It's just you. Seriously, I read your analogy and thought, "Huh?"

  • Most Truthful and Patriotic Layton, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:13 a.m.

    "unprecedented and ominous" attacks on religious freedom".

    Keep scarin' 'em, and they'll keep throwing money at your corporate religion.

  • andrew h Twin Falls, ID
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:15 a.m.

    "I have to say, as someone who is not a Christian, it's hard for me to believe Christians are a persecuted people in America. God willing, maybe one of you one day will even rise up and get to be president of this country - or maybe forty-four in a row. But that's my point, is they've taken this idea of no establishment as persecution, because they feel entitled, not to equal status, but to greater status." –Jon Stewart

  • Reasonable Person Layton, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:16 a.m.

    When the Supreme Court ruled against institutionalized prayer in schools, it was a relief to my Presbyterian family in Utah -- who now did not have to listen to the "majority religion's" prayer in schools.

    Religion belongs in the home, and you practice it by how you live YOUR life.
    You do not practice your religion by insisting that others publicly follow it, or imposing its rules on all.

  • morpunkt Glendora, CA
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:19 a.m.

    It's a crying shame that these key leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention didn't see the need to be united, during the last presidential campaign. Very large numbers of their Evangelical faithful backed the losing campaign of Rick Santorum, instead of Mitt Romney, just because of Romney's Mormonism. I heard them say it, just here in my town in So.Cal. One can only imagine how it must have been in the Bible Belt. This paved the way for another easy victory for Obama's people, who now champion the agendas of organizations who stand for ideas contrary to both of our faiths. I think they finally realized the grave mistake they have collectively made. Too little, too late, I'm afraid.

  • americanalatina13 provo, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:23 a.m.

    To those who think religious liberty is not at risk, that persecution only happened in the past, please pull your head out of the sand.

    It is not just those who do not participate in homosexual marriages who are losing their businesses, it is the all-out assault on anyone speaking or doing anything in public who attends a church that preaches traditional marriage.

    It is in zoning laws that prohibit the building of churches (of course they don't come out and absolutely ban them, the regulations just become so costly and burdensome that it becomes impossible to build or add onto any religious facilities).

    It is found right here on these pages with the overt attacks on faith. Their goal is to eliminate people of faith from the public square.

  • Haykakan Alexandria, VA
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:28 a.m.

    Correct me if I'm off on my interpretation, but I read Mohler's words to mean something to the effect of, "I think you're going to [the place of fire and brimstone mentioned throughout the Bible but is unable to make it through the filter], but I have no problem using you when our interests occasionally align."

    Fear mongering like this rubs me the wrong way. Mohler's hyperbole is the type of thing that has no place in political or theological discussion. (I do not condone that kind of language in LDS circles either.)

  • Vince Ballard South Ogden, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:37 a.m.

    It may seem far fetched at the moment, BUT, there have been several times in L.D.S. history when Constitutional rights meant nothing when the public was seized by a mob mentality. The presumption of: "it can't happen here" always makes my hair stand on end. I believe this is why L.D.S. leaders are very nervous about legalizing same sex marriage; it may eventually be forced on us.

  • Red San Antonia, TX
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:51 a.m.

    People who are anti-family are anti-Christ.

    It is a slippery slope.

    Whose side are you on?

  • CWEB Orem, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:56 a.m.

    We all think we know so much...yet we can't even agree on the spelling of potato...potatoe.

    We can't create so much as a gnat, or give life to anything of our own creation...yet we boast

    in how much theological upper-handmanship we have in our little pea brains. It would do us

    all well to say more prayers, and hope for the best in whatever we profess to believe...and

    out and help our neighbor....Leave the politicians and theologians who argue, to their own

    feeble attempts to convince the world of their truth. Light your "light" so shine.

  • brokenclay Chandler, AZ
    Oct. 22, 2013 9:58 a.m.

    "Trinity" is simply a term which serves to encapsulate and represent the teachings of a large body of Scripture. For this reason, whether the term is found in Scripture or not is irrelevant. Mormons do the same thing in employing terminology not specifically found in their writings. To say that Constantine developed this theology as well as the term homoousios is a gross misrepresentation of history, especially in light of the fact that Constantine was baptized by an Arian bishop, and most of the emperors that followed him were Arians who persecuted the orthodox church. Orthodoxy survived IN SPITE OF the Roman leadership of the fourth century.

    One of the issues of dialoguing with Mormons is that they are not familiar with technical evangelical doctrinal terms. Just because Mormons believe in some sort of atonement does not mean that they believe in penal substitution. They most emphatically do not.

    Albert Mohler is one of the great leaders of modern evangelicalism. He is uncompromising, and this is evidenced by excerpts from his speech in this article. The LDS and evangelicals do not share the same eternal destiny.

  • JLFuller Boise, ID
    Oct. 22, 2013 10:18 a.m.

    The man says "we won't go to heaven together" but that is OK. He just doesn't know better... at this point in his existence anyway.

  • elarue NEW YORK, NY
    Oct. 22, 2013 10:21 a.m.

    For those of you who think this isn't a very dangerous slippery slope, consider our own history. We ourselves were persecuted when our religious beliefs were opposed by those of other faiths. What will happen here is that conservative Christians will claim to be the victims of religious oppression, and they will convince our people to side with them, and then when they've won, they will turn on us and betray us and claim that for us to exercise our religious freedom is an attack on their religious freedom. This whole "religious freedom" quest is nothing more than Satan trying to trick us into destroying ourselves, and we should have no part of it.

  • morpunkt Glendora, CA
    Oct. 22, 2013 10:28 a.m.

    @brokenclay
    To accept the concept of the 3 in 1 Trinity is what I once believed in, as a former Protestant.
    I converted to the LDS faith, in large part, because I often wondered why Christ, while agonized in the Garden of Gethsemane, prayed "not My will, but Thine will be done". This clearly indicates 2 separate entities. If not so, Jesus would have been schizophrenic. No disrespect in that jest.
    The great minds of yesteryear knew of the fallacy of the Trinity, as well. Sir Isaac Newton, who, by the way, was a great scriptologist, as well as the greatest legacy to science, refused to accept the Trinitarian concept, even is his day, despite great pressure to do so, from the Church of England.
    I am uncompromising in my viewpoint as much as Mr. Mohler is in his. The divide between us is still there, and has a long way to go to mend fences and work with the LDS, especially after the masses of Evangelical backed Santorum's campaign and permanently bruised Romney's. Now, both of our camps have to deal with the Obama agenda, which bodes poorly for us both.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    Oct. 22, 2013 10:51 a.m.

    He came to BYU and he said Mormon and Evangelicals will not go to heaven together. I guess that he probably meant that he thought Mormons are going to Hell. Oh well, no biggy. He has his opinion and his audience disagreed. The cool thing about BYU is that they are tolerant. If he said that about a lot of other groups he would be shunned. People on this forum are denying that such a thing is happening but I keep reading about specific instances where people are getting forced out of business, fired, bullied for having viewpoint that are contrary to the contemporary political dogma.

    I think that different faiths should reach out to members of other faiths and form networks. I would hope that those networks would include Moslems.

    It reminds me of an oral tradition from about 400 years ago from a South Pacific island, smaller tribes banded together to resist a larger tribe. It is wonderful the perspective that one can get from genuinely embracing diversity.

  • TA1 Alexandria, VA
    Oct. 22, 2013 10:52 a.m.

    Please stop with the articles on Religious Liberty being under attack - it is simply not true and the more that the DN keeps writing about it - the more people will be turned off. The younger generations have started walking out the door. I have seen too many returned missionaries leave the Church. Please - Write about real problems please - maybe about how we can all do a better job of helping each other.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Oct. 22, 2013 11:15 a.m.

    Spite makes right? The enemy of my enemy is my friend, as the proverb goes? Baptists can suddenly put aside disdain for Mormon belief when they urgently seek allies? Is identifying an object of mutual hate the sole common ground for this sudden ‘ecumenical’ spirit?

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 22, 2013 11:23 a.m.

    The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    Now if only they had a real enemy instead of the faux persecutions happening all in their minds.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 11:30 a.m.

    @americanalatina13;

    I really couldn't care less what you preach in your churches, but it belongs in your church, not in our laws. Passing laws that favor your religious beliefs violates the religious beliefs of others. The fact that you're not willing to acknowledge this leads me to believe you don't care about the beliefs of others.
    If one's religious beliefs preclude them from providing the product or service that is their core business to certain groups, they should choose a different business because religious bias is not a valid reason to deny your product or service to your customers.

    @Vince Ballard;

    If your church can't even be forced to marry active, but unworthy, heterosexual members, how could it possibly be forced to conduct same-sex marriages?

    @Red;

    LGBT have families too.

  • morpunkt Glendora, CA
    Oct. 22, 2013 11:38 a.m.

    @TA1
    FYI- As we speak, the Church of England is having to fight a lawsuit against charges of discrimination for refusing to marry a gay couple.
    Read the news my friend. It's already happining across the pond. The agenda is ultimately vengeful.

  • Downtime Saint George, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 11:38 a.m.

    He is exactly right. We are not going to the heaven together. I am going with my wife. But, he will be given the opportunity to accept the gospel in its fullness and go with his wife.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 22, 2013 11:46 a.m.

    @morpunkt – “I often wondered why Christ, while agonized in the Garden of Gethsemane, prayed "not My will, but Thine will be done."

    Perhaps rather than being an ontological statement it is a psychological statement.

    Spiritual teachers throughout history have said similar things about “getting their own ego out of the way and letting God work through them.”

    I know Christians believe Jesus was wholly unique but when reading the Bible without all the Christian doctrine metaphysical presuppositions, he sounds remarkably similar to many spiritual geniuses who came before and after him.

  • CortM HOUSTON, TX
    Oct. 22, 2013 11:48 a.m.

    In "How The West Really Lost God", Mary Eberstadt makes a credible argument that the core problem is a breakdown in the family: secularization has come because the family has imploded, not because religion is under attack. When religious values are not being established at home, they do not get established in the wider culture.

    It's easy to blame Secularization and shadowy conspiracies for the erosion of religious values. It's a lot more difficult to admit that we have failed our families, by failing to teach and to live religious values. Half the babies in America are born out of wedlock. Americans spend nearly $5 billion a year on online pornography (and per capita, more of that is spent in Utah than in any other state). It's naive to assume that all that stuff is only happening in "bad" homes. On both ends of the spectrum, personal biases and political viewpoints masquerade as Christian values. We do what we want, when we want, and claim it's God's will.

    Then, when we find ourselves mired in a Godless world, we blame the state, or the media, or the Communists. The enemy is us.

  • RG Buena Vista, VA
    Oct. 22, 2013 11:49 a.m.

    @ Ernest T. Bass
    "It is a complete falsehood that people and societies are getting worse. It's not even debatable."

    I guess you have never lived in North Korea, or in Nazi Germany.

    @ all the people who think religious liberty is not under threat: many posters have already identified instances in this country and in other Western, democratic countries where it is under threat. Amazingly brutal things have happened in this world in countries once deemed safe and prosperous. Don't think it cannot happen, or hasn't already begun.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Oct. 22, 2013 12:01 p.m.

    Secularism is not out to put you, Mormons, or anyone else in jail together, Reverend Mohler. It’s what guarantees your right to adhere to your faith and your theological agenda.

  • morpunkt Glendora, CA
    Oct. 22, 2013 12:08 p.m.

    @ Tyler D
    Jesus' ontological, (state of being), never changes. He mission never waivered. I don't see your point. The concept of the 3 in 1 is purely Greek-philosophical in origin, mingle with scripture.
    Ontological experiences can happen for us mere mortals, but not the Godhead. It is one in purpose, just a the LDS church rightly professes.

  • J-TX Allen, TX
    Oct. 22, 2013 12:15 p.m.

    @ brokenclay: "The LDS and evangelicals do not share the same eternal destiny."

    Uh, we're OK with that.

    It's like a few years ago, when the Church responded to the Vatican's decision that the Roman Catholic Church would accept as valid those baptisms of major Protestant sects, but not that of the LDS Church, "We are neither offended nor concerned."

  • InclusiveConsolation LAYTON, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 12:26 p.m.

    As a practicing Mormon, I find consolation in my firm belief that, contrary to speaker Mohler's assertion, devout Mormons and Baptisits can end up "going to heaven together" despite theological differences in this life. I am grateful for a doctrine of inclusiveness rather than one of exclusivity.

  • christoph Brigham City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 12:26 p.m.

    I read Albert Mohler in a summer publication called "Eternal Perspective" in which he talked about fighting sin with truth and helping sinners with love. What caught my eye, was him confessing that Christianity is losing in America and will lose, unless youth and the young embrace the commandments and are pure and happy; it is all depending on the youth. Missionary work will save us, it saves marriages and saves youth; I feel for churches that don't believe in missionary work.

  • Nanook of the North Phoenix, AZ
    Oct. 22, 2013 1:09 p.m.

    With all the whingeing about "attacks on religious freedom in the US", I have yet to hear of One Single Solitary Valid Example that represents a valid "attack on religious freedom." Some examples showed something that doesn't fly w.r.t. civil rights (e.g. I think a business choosing not to serve a gay customer is just as bad as a business choosing not to serve a black customer). Some aren't accurately reported (and when you dig down, you find it's not a proper "attack on religious freedom" at all). I know Elder Oaks gave some examples in a talk a while back, but further investigation showed that the issues weren't exactly as he characterized them. And some "attacks" were really just people criticizing the religious opinions of others (and remember, the First Amendment ALSO protects the right to free speech, and that includes the right to criticize the statements of others). So c'mon, people: Give me some good, solid examples of how your religious freedom is being attacked! 'Cause right now, I'm not buying it.

  • teeoh Anytown, KY
    Oct. 22, 2013 1:09 p.m.

    @brokenclay

    You’re right. Words mean different things to different groups of people. So, I agree that whether or not the term (Trinity) is found in Scripture is irrelevant.

    However, according to BrentBot’s comment, Harper’s Dictionary entry says that the “doctrine” (not “term”) of the Trinity is not found in the NT. That is very much relevant and a problem for those who accept the 4th Century creeds of the Trinity.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Oct. 22, 2013 1:13 p.m.

    Re:SusaninVA
    "Having been a Baptist in another life.... I find this so scary that it may drive me from the Church I love."

    Amen.

    It is sad....and pathetic.

  • CortM HOUSTON, TX
    Oct. 22, 2013 1:15 p.m.

    One of the most discouraging things about this story, to say nothing of the tangential sectarian conversations that have unfolded in the comments section, is that most people involved seem to be afflicted by a severe case of spiritual myopia.

    Debra Barone, the long-suffering wife on "Everybody Loves Raymond", once exclaimed, "When you're on the Titanic, you load the lifeboats - you don't waste time yelling at the iceberg." Spiritually speaking, we're living on the Titanic, and instead of working together to save our families and communities, we're arguing over who's going to which Heaven.

    I love InclusiveConsolation's comments! This is a time for tolerance, and acceptance, and unity, not a time to focus on the trifles that divide us (and that is not to suggest that anyone's faith is a trifling thing. But before I'm an American, or a Texan, or a Mormon, I am a child of God. So is everyone else. And that's the crucial thing.)

  • shamrock Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 1:31 p.m.

    I can't deny that saying Mormons and Baptists won't go to heaven together but they might go to jail together is an attention-grabbing sound-bite, but It's out of touch with reality and fear-mongering at its worse.

    In recent years, the US Supreme Court has actually increased the First Protection protections for both religious groups and atheists, and our religious rights are in no serious danger of landing anyone in jail.

  • JD Tractor Iowa City, IA
    Oct. 22, 2013 1:38 p.m.

    "I do not believe that we are going to heaven together, but I do believe we may go to jail together,"

    Well said. It's sad to think though that he has already decided he won't go to heaven because the Mormons will be there.

  • christoph Brigham City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 1:56 p.m.

    Nanook of the north: look back over the last 50 years and you will see: it is subtle yet you can see, in 1960 eighty percent of adults in USA were married; today that is between 50-60 percent and dropping. Drug war (which we have lost) is another example, worshiping of the university, divorce, broken up families, secular society is winning for now, more and more people in their 20's are atheist, and fewer people are having children which brings down economies. You are correct, nobody is saying "You can't worship in church", yet Christianity is under attack by TV, Hollywood, universities, worship of sports, and other idols. The youth will save the day though.

  • mountainlocal Brooklyn, NY
    Oct. 22, 2013 2:08 p.m.

    From Ted's Head:

    The church has been through worse times than these. Extermination orders, murderous mobs, Federal Army marching into SLC, crack down on polygamy, etc. The church adapted, survived and is thriving. Can things turn? Absolutely. But I also think the church has a lot of money, political power, and allies on its side that weren't there before.

    Many left the church when polygamy was outlawed and some when blacks were allowed into the priesthood. Guess what? The church is still around and doing quite well. It's international. I really don't fear church doors being shut and peaceful assembly being denied. Could tax exempt status become an issue? I suppose. But then is that what this fight is about? Money? Kind of antithetical to Christ's mission.

    And if leaders are jailed like Martin Luther King and Joseph Smith, there message might only become stronger and more powerful. I still think it's fear based and somewhat groundless. And PS. I served my mission in Alabama and evangelicals are not friendly towards Mormons and I will never forget that.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 2:14 p.m.

    RG:
    Sure, you can point to small pockets of poor humanity, but if you study even a small amount of history you will see how past civilization weren't any better than those you cite.
    How were women treated historically?
    Many civilizations simply discarded new born babies for being born the wrong gender, or because they couldn't take care of a child and without birth control that happened frequently.
    The tribal mentality meant that outsiders were often killed for simply being outsiders. Or they were enslaved for the rest of their lives.
    The fact remains a far larger percentage of the world's population has freedom and a voice. We are educated better than ever before. We have access to vaccinations and medicine. Clean water, shelter, food.....you name it, we have it better now. There is NO doubt about it.
    It's easy to cherry-pick the few areas where civil rights aren't granted, but nobody can argue the world isn't significantly better than it's ever been.
    So, let's help those who don't have it as good as we do. Isn't that what Jesus would do?

  • ulvegaard Medical Lake, Washington
    Oct. 22, 2013 2:14 p.m.

    I was stunned when I read a couple of the comments claiming that religious freedom is 'not' under attack in the U.S and not to worry because it's in the Constitution. Well, so is the right to bear arms and though many are not aware of it, the U.S. Senate was narrowly defeated in ratifying a treaty with the United Nations that would have ratified gun control -- the same law they couldn't pass in this country alone. Many Constitutional rights are being eroded under the banner of 'progress'.

    We are already witnessing religious groups being told that they cannot maintain certain doctrines and or standards because someone has filed a complaint against them. This is already happening in Europe in a major way and this country seems anxious to adopt all things European, including government run healthcare.

    Unless we actively work to maintain our Constitutional rights, we can and will lose them.

  • Nanook of the North Phoenix, AZ
    Oct. 22, 2013 2:19 p.m.

    @christoph - How much of that is "other people in our nation attacking our religious freedoms"? Satanic attacks, maybe. But no human "forced" people to start "living together" instead of getting married. No human "forced" people to use drugs. No human "forced" people to divorce more often. Yes, more people are doing things we think are wrong and sinful (or, it at least LOOKS like that ... who knows how much went on 50 or more years ago and just didn't get broadcast?). But that's not a threat to religious freedom, not in the sense we're talking about here w.r.t. government, the constitution, and our fellow citizens. Hollywood or TV showing stuff we'd rather not see? We can turn it off, and if others choose not to, that's they're choice. The spiritual fight against Satan is, indeed, real; but it's not the same as this "religious freedom" fight at all, and we shouldn't conflate the two.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 22, 2013 2:32 p.m.

    @morpunkt – “I don't see your point.”

    I know… because you’re not understanding what ontology (or ontological) means. I was suggesting that perhaps Jesus was not speaking about himself as a being in relation to God the Father as a separate being, but was instead simply trying to put his own ego aside.

    And I understand you believe what the LDS Church professes… whether it’s true (in the ontological sense) is a different matter. Obviously lots of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Jews, not to mention other Christians would disagree.

    How do we decide who (if any) is right?

    And your point about the Church of England is not analogous. The Anglican Church is State run and therefore is intricately linked with State laws. Not so in our country… the non-interference stamped into the 1st Amendment goes both ways.

  • USAlover Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 3:02 p.m.

    "It is my belief that God will save all of His children, that he can and while if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they too may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God have climbed"

    J. Reuben Clark

  • Bill Shakespeare Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 3:39 p.m.

    This gentleman has half-shut eyes, not unlike Garfield the cat.

  • mountainlocal Brooklyn, NY
    Oct. 22, 2013 3:41 p.m.

    ulvegaard:

    The U.N. arms ratification you cited has nothing to do with American gun ownership but sets to regulate international standards for imports/exports on conventional weapons. How does that threaten the 2nd Amendment? Even when they ban certain assault rifles, people still can apply for concealed weapons permits and own hunting rifles. I fail to see how that changes the constitution. Again, I think you're reaching much like this speech.

    And cite some examples of religious groups being told they can't peacefully assemble or where the government impedes free exercise of religion.

    Europe doesn't have the same constitution we do, but I'd still like to hear some examples from there, if you have any.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Oct. 22, 2013 3:53 p.m.

    Re:ulvegaard
    "Well, so is the right to bear arms and though many are not aware of it, the U.S. Senate was narrowly defeated in ratifying a treaty with the United Nations that would have ratified gun control "

    "Secretary of State John Kerry signed the U.N. Arms Trade Treaty on behalf of President Obama and the United States on Sept. 25. In a statement, he said the treaty is “about keeping weapons out of the hands of terrorists and rogue actors,” and “reducing the risk of international transfers of conventional arms that will be used to carry out the world’s worst crimes.” He added that the treaty “recognizes the freedom of both individuals and states to obtain, possess, and use arms for legitimate purposes.”
    (Factcheck)

  • klangton Akiachak, AK
    Oct. 22, 2013 4:08 p.m.

    As we celebrate what we have in common with the Baptists, we might want to keep in mind we share the same beliefs with many radical Muslim worshipers.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 4:10 p.m.

    RE: BrentBot: Before the creeds,Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225 AD),used the term Trinity (trinitas), the oldest extant formal exposition of a Trinitarian theology. "three Persons, one Substance". (from Koine Greek) "treis hypostases”. Same substance or nature=hypostases, Hebrews 11:3.

    RE: Albert Mohler listed ways that all Southern Baptists are Calvinists at the 2006 SBC Pastor’s Conference
    A belief in the inerrancy of Scripture - We really do believe that God can work in such a way that the human will wills to do what God wills that will to do. And that is exactly why we believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. We do not believe that the Apostle Paul was irresistibly against his will drawn to write the Book of Romans.”

    Affirming the omniscience of God – “ God created this world knowing exactly who would come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Some of us believe more than that, but certainly none of us here believes less than that. If that be so, then the precise identity of all the persons who would come to faith in Christ was known by the Father before the world was created.”

  • LDS Cedar City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 4:37 p.m.

    As we promote religious freedom, we need to also promote religious freedom for all.

    That may mean allowing Muslim dress, recognizing Jewish holidays and Catholic Saints days. And symbols of other religions, such as the Star of David and Crucifix need their place in our push for the symbol of the Cross.

    Accommodating Muslim prayers several times a day. Recognizing, accommodating and respecting Sabbaths other than Sunday (Seventh-Day Adventists and Jewish Friday PM to Saturday PM). And teaching our children about other religions and teaching them respect for other beliefs.

    This freedom effort gathering momentum has great potential to bring about greater love and widespread good will.

  • Bob K porland, OR
    Oct. 22, 2013 4:53 p.m.

    The WORST kind of cheesy pandering.....

    In the first place, religious organizations have way more influence over politics and laws than they did a few decades ago.

    The present "selling point" is the phony lie that religious institutions are going to be forced to go against their beliefs to accommodate outsiders.
    All that is true about this is:
    1-- if a church (or a churchgoer) owns a public business in a state with anti-discrimination laws, they must treat all members of the public equally.
    2-- some church organizations and businesses which are against contraception must see that it is provided to employees who want it.

    Some businesses say "We don't want to do Gay weddings, they want to force us"
    I would answer:
    1- If you make photos or cakes, there are very few Gay couples who would want you, once you explained politely that your heart is not in it. If you answer with a sermon or put them down, they ought to sue you.
    2--If you own a place where weddings are held (not a church), you take everyone, it's fair.

    The real story is that some churches are afraid of their own Gay children.

  • Bob K porland, OR
    Oct. 22, 2013 5:09 p.m.

    Vince Ballard
    It may seem far fetched at the moment, BUT, there have been several times in L.D.S. history when Constitutional rights meant nothing when the public was seized by a mob mentality.... I believe this is why L.D.S. leaders are very nervous about legalizing same sex marriage; it may eventually be forced on us......

    Living in 1890(unless you believe the priesthood change in 1978 was forced from outside) does not help you or lds church cope with the 21st Century.

    The completely paranoid lie "churches will be forced to perform Gay marriages"-- No one with any political clout or import is trying to push for that. All that is true is that a church or two which own profit-making wedding halls were told to obey fairness.

    If you know the lds faith so well, why do you not recognize that it is based heavily on heterosexual marriage and procreation, forming an obstacle to fully accepting your own Gay children?

    The lds opposition to secular Gay marriage is due to fear your own Gay kids will want to marry in the temples. Look to the prophet and to God -- not the non-mormon Gays

  • BlueHusky Mission Viejo, CA
    Oct. 22, 2013 5:12 p.m.

    Christ had been dead for nearly 300 years when Constantine convened the Council of Nicea in order to define the tenets of the Christian faith. Heavily influenced by neoPlatonism and the newly rediscovered writings of Aristotle, the trinitarian doctrine became the standard by which Christianity could be identified. So those who define Christianity as a belief in the Trinity declare that those who believe a more literal interpretation of the New Testament are not "christians".

    The distinction is merely Greek sophistry. But Protestants are hair-splitters (accounting for the several thousand protestant sects) so they think this is important. I say, nobody knows what God does when He goes to work in the morning, but I'm pretty sure He is not a hair splitter.

  • 1978 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 5:35 p.m.

    "Some businesses say "We don't want to do Gay weddings, they want to force us"
    I would answer:
    1- If you make photos or cakes, there are very few Gay couples who would want you, once you explained politely that your heart is not in it. If you answer with a sermon or put them down, they ought to sue you."

    So you should be able to be sued for having an opinion (no matter how it is expressed) different than those who support gay marriage if you own a "private" business.

    I am speechless. And the way things are going - with my point of view - that is probably the only safe course to pursue.

  • Pa. Reader Harrisburg, PA
    Oct. 22, 2013 6:47 p.m.

    This dude's remarks sound like a clear case of the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture...

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 6:58 p.m.

    @1978;

    If you allow refusal of service to gays for religious reasons, it's only a baby-step to saying "I refuse service to Mormons for religious reasons", or "I refuse service to blacks for religious reasons", or "I refuse service to short people for religious reasons".

    Bigotry shouldn't be allowed by businesses.

  • johnpack Parker, CO
    Oct. 22, 2013 8:26 p.m.

    The problem in the public square isn't religion -- it's government. It'd be one thing if government were only in court houses, police stations, and the branches of government. It'd be fine to exclude religion from those places.

    But government is now in everything (including how much water your toilet contains) and scanning all email & phone calls and internet posts. It's time to get the government out of education, email, phone calls, the internet, and the public square. Brigham Young warned Utah not to adopt taxpayer-funded schools. Now the anti-religion government has come to roost.

    But let's welcome allies like this speaker. It's good to know we can work together even though we don't share every belief. Eventually, this speaker might even figure out that we believe that no one can be saved without believing in and accepting Jesus Christ. Our works are about re-affirming and strengthening our belief -- not in qualifying for salvation through some other means (as if that were even possible).

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 22, 2013 11:19 p.m.

    If you believe this speaker is your ally then I've got some choice swampland to sell you.

  • scwoz gambier, oh
    Oct. 23, 2013 6:45 a.m.

    Amen. Thoughtful dialogue between people no matter their faith or belief system is always acceptable to God and the start of acceptance is the willingness to listen to each other and to find those things we have in common and use them to build the Kingdom of God on Earth while we wait for our Savior's triumphant return.

  • teeoh Anytown, KY
    Oct. 23, 2013 7:28 a.m.

    @Bob K

    You really believe that “religious organizations have way more influence over politics and laws than then did a few decades ago”? Really? Seriously? And you come to this conclusion how? Is it all the theocratic laws that have been passed so frequently lately? Please, tell us about them…

    You believe that the way for religious people to deal with over-reaching anti-discrimination laws is to explain “politely that your heart is not in it”? Seriously? I’m dumbfounded.

  • Brazilian Mormon Morgan, IL
    Oct. 23, 2013 7:38 a.m.

    We are still failing to help evangelicals and protestants see that we believe in Christ. The pastor mentioned that we ""share love for the family, love for marriage, love for the gift of children, love of liberty and love of human society". How about love for Christ?

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Oct. 23, 2013 8:40 a.m.

    RE: BlueHusky Heavily influenced by neoPlatonism and the newly rediscovered writings of Aristotle, the trinitarian doctrine.” Wrong,

    The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one (*heis) these three agree as one(**en) (1John 5:7,8 KJV translation & JST). 3 persons one God, "one in substance”.

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person(substance, 5287,Hebrews 1:3.

    (*heis,1520=the cardinal #1.) We are one=(en)they are one=(en) Jn., 17:20-22. One in unity,(**en 1722, Preposition) ) different Greek words.

    C.S Lewis,” If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we would make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions]. How could we? We are dealing with fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about." The three personal God .
    “Mere Christianity. Lewis gives some other analogies of the Tri(3) Unity.

  • Shelama SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 23, 2013 9:21 a.m.

    As an atheist I've often been asked by family, "But what if you're wrong?" Well, I tell them, I could end up with Charon on the Styx with the Mormons and Evangelicals.

    This country and the world has huge problems. Ultimately, our best hope is science and secular humanism. Where religion overlaps with secular humanism, that's great. Where religion improves the quality of a person's life & death & family and community without hurting or imposing on other people, that's also good and it doesn't really matter that it's false.

    All religious triumphalism is ultimately doomed to massive disappointment and failure but the last thing that religionists have to worry about in America is the loss of their religious freedom. They may lose a privileged status but that's not the same thing. The sooner we realize we're alone in the Universe the better. The sooner we decide to live inside reality the better.

  • brokenclay Chandler, AZ
    Oct. 23, 2013 9:30 a.m.

    When Mormons point to Jesus' conversations with the Father as evidence against the Trinity, they betray their fundamental misunderstanding of what the Trinity actually is. This criticism carries great weight against a doctrine known as Modalism. Such evidence, however, is entirely compatible with Trinitarian teaching.

    It's a shame that the Trinity is your reason for leaving orthodoxy, because it sounds like you didn't properly understand the teaching in the first place. The LDS want evangelicals to properly represent their beliefs, and yet they consistently turn around and paint us as Modalists. This is inconsistent, to say the least.

  • Grace Bakersfield, CA
    Oct. 23, 2013 11:33 a.m.

    All comments here show why Mormons are still being evangelized and prayed for by Evangelical missionaries: We want you in God's Eternal Kingdom. You have us in your 2nd degree one (unbiblical); you are outside of the Biblical one by choice, unless your prophet reverses Joseph Smith's unique 19th century creation.

    Likewise we reach out to the liberal, the atheist and the intolerant posters who are interested. When you redefine our Biblical message and who Jesus Christ is, we will not sit quietly and allow your revisionism to masquerade as Truth. You can accept or reject it, share and opine; you cannot redefine.

    Silly untruths are repeated here with incorrect definitions of the Triune nature of God, the Councils, the Biblical salvation message, Jesus' mandate to preach and reach all with His Gospel. He is the one historical figure Whose attributed and clear message is most contested today. But when you quote that great theologian, Jon Stewart, that says it all.

    Dr. Moehler simply registered his theological differences, least the ever-seeking "We're just like you" unbiblical organizations think dialogue means doctrinal equity.

  • teeoh Anytown, KY
    Oct. 23, 2013 12:02 p.m.

    @brokenclay

    I don’t have a PhD in theology. I may not truly, fully understand the doctrines of the Trinity or Modalism to know if I’m “painting” you as one or the other. But I read the Bible. I know what it says about God and Jesus Christ. And I’m pretty sure God does not expect a person to understand those post-Biblical concepts to know what it means to be a Christian. But I do know this much: In all my study of the Bible and of Mormonism, I’ve always found consistent, sound agreement between the two.

    @Grace

    You say that we "cannot redefine." Yet, I think that is exactly what mainstream Christianity has done with doctrines like the Trinity. I agree with Harper’s Bible Dictionary, that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible. I’ve read the Bible. Repeatedly. I can’t find it. It is a revisionist, post-Biblical doctrine. (And by the way, I do NOT think that makes believers in the Trinity non-Christian. Just mistaken on the doctrine.)

  • Shelama SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Oct. 23, 2013 1:10 p.m.

    If the Jewish life and Roman death of Jesus had nothing to do with fulfilling Hebrew scripture, and if the "atonement" is a contrivance at the center of the Christ myth and converting a failed, false, dead Jewish messiah into a successful, living Christian messiah, what does that make Christian theology and argumentative apologetics?

    There is a place where Evangelicals and Mormons coincide perfectly: ...neither one can give a good reason to believe the Bible is the word of a god and not totally man-made.

    Everybody has exactly the same body of evidence and for all of the high-powered Christian and Mormon (FAIR & BYU-Neal Maxwell) apologetics, they are still persuasive pretty much virtually only for those people who already believe.

    Pretty much the only ways that virtually anybody enters into Christianity in the first place are either thru childhood inculcation or, it turns out, in rather profound ignorance of the Bible itself. Being able to quote chapter and verse and argue doctrine – and even memorize the entire Bible verbatim – does not make one knowledgeable of the Bible.

  • ute alumni paradise, UT
    Oct. 23, 2013 1:30 p.m.

    loving the liberal posts, most often identified in lib states. interesting these folks take the time to read a newspaper they know does not espouse their liberal beliefs. keep it up. makes for good reading

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Oct. 23, 2013 6:47 p.m.

    re:ute alumni
    "interesting these folks take the time to read a newspaper they know does not espouse their liberal beliefs."

    #1) I read DN because it is owned by the church to which I belong. When/if the LDS Church divests itself of Deseret News most likely it won't be of importance to me. I find it curious that the LDS Church claims political neutrality over the pulpit but yet, puts out a decidedly right newspaper.

    #2) I prefer to hear/read a broad range of viewpoints and news from the political spectrum. However, I don't care for programs where a.) guests/commentators are merely ranting, or demonizing others rather than having a respectful discussion and b.) blatant lies, distortions and misinformation go unchecked--which is why I no longer listen to Limbaugh, Hannity Beck and others.

    3.) I was born and raised in UT and still have many family members living there.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Oct. 23, 2013 8:14 p.m.

    RE:Teeoh,”the Bible and of Mormonism ,… sound agreement.”

    ”They tell us that the BoM states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The BoM teaches No Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!”( Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation.
    (Jesus)…born of Mary at *Jersusalem … who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost(Spirit) and bring forth a son yea, even the Son of God. ( Alma 7:10).

    "In *Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet(Malachi) has written."(MT 2:5), Fulfilled Prophecy is what separates the Holy Bible from all other books.

    The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:(Luke 1:35)

    RE: Shelama, Jesus had nothing to do with fulfilling Hebrew scripture?

    1) Passover (Lev 23:5) – Passover lamb (1 Cor 5:7) . Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for the Passover.
    2)Unleavened Bread (Lev 23:6) –Messiah's sinless life . A perfect sacrifice for our sins.
    3) First Fruits (Lev 23:10) – 1Cor15:20, "first fruits from the dead." 3of7

  • iNKSpot Wilsonville, OR
    Oct. 24, 2013 5:23 a.m.

    Perhaps the next time there is a Mormon running for President, we won't have 10 million Evangelicals throw the election by refusing to vote.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Oct. 24, 2013 7:29 a.m.

    Re:!nkspot
    "Perhaps the next time there is a Mormon running for President, we won't have 10 million Evangelicals throw the election by refusing to vote."

    Do you really think Romney's Mormonism trumped his flip-flopping as the reason some conservatives didn't support him?

  • dianeect north salt lake, UT
    Oct. 24, 2013 7:10 p.m.

    It's wonderful that people of differing religions are coming together to stand for what we feel like most precious-- our religious liberty.

  • LelandTC West Valley City, 00
    Oct. 25, 2013 5:38 p.m.

    A couple of comments here have me concerned. Those that state that religious freedoms are not under attack, must have a different definition of freedom than mine. I see religious groups taken to court because they use public property such as schools as meeting places on Sundays. These are tax paying citizens and have had an agreement for this use for some time, but all of a sudden they are being booted out? How is this not an attack on religious freedom? When people have to fight in court to have a cross at a place of remembrance for a person that was religious who died there and the courts say take it down... How is this not an attack on religious freedom? You may claim to not care because you are not religious so it's no skin off your back, but a society that can not respect these non-intrusive basic kindnesses will not respect anyone's freedoms (religious or not).

  • Bill Fitz LAKE BLUFF, IL
    Oct. 27, 2013 4:31 p.m.

    Seems albert likes to use fear to teach. I also notice that much of his teachings are opinions. And can someone tell me what his salary is? If he gets paid for preaching then clearly he does not follow the Savior who did not get paid for preaching.

  • Bill Fitz LAKE BLUFF, IL
    Oct. 27, 2013 4:40 p.m.

    When he says "I was speaking honestly" He inadvertently admitted that he speaks dishonestly at times.

  • BlueSage Harrisville/Weber, UT
    Nov. 22, 2013 8:41 a.m.

    Hmmmm... Let's see if I got all the talking points that Mohler was trying to get across:

    - Mormons are going straight to hell but evangelicals will still tolerate them; at least until they've gotten rid of the Muslims...

    - We are threatened by an increasingly "secular" state even though political studies seem to indicate a move to the political "right" over the last 20 years. We should embrace a Theocracy instead (an evangelical one at that!).

    - We should oppose even the most basic protections under the laws for those who don't share our religious beliefs (gay marriage, etc).

    - We should follow the model of radical evangelicals in Africa (such as those who have been working toward making homosexual relationships a crime punishable by death).

    - We should impose strict censorship laws to protect "religious liberty" (as opposed to "erotic liberty"? Really?)

    Mohler did make one thing clear by repeating it more than once: his belief that "we" are not going to Heaven together. This statement clearly shows that he believes members of the LDS faith are going straight to Hell.

    I wonder what Jesus would think of his message?

    Mike Iverson

  • Straitpath PROVO, UT
    Nov. 29, 2013 9:46 p.m.

    I wonder if the evangelicals are recognizing the power of the organization of the L D S church and the power of the numbers in the church.

  • mjllindsey west valley, UT
    Dec. 1, 2013 2:44 p.m.

    The word set is defined many ways in the dictionary, as is christianity. because one chooses a different one does not make him wrong. Their are many types of christians. As with the word set, Which one I choose does not make me more right or wrong but different.