As I learned in a college PolySci class once, you can't engage in a
rational debate until you define your terms. The writer cites waterboarding as
torture. Some agree. Some would say that, compared to what can really happen to
a person while held captive, waterbording is a day at the beach. I contend that
to call waterbording torture is to diminish what real torture is. If you
don't agree, I'd tell you to look up on the net under torture and see
just what really can happen to people held by thugs like the Middle-East
terriorists. But if you want to sleep at night, I'd advise against it.
"you can't engage in a rational debate until you define your
terms."Fair enough. But, from a worldwide view, according to
the United Nations and the Geneva Convention, the terms have been defined. One
cannot redefine terms retroactively in order to circumvent the common
understanding.Here is part of article one "Any act
by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally
inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person,
information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has
committed or is suspected of having committed..."So, if I
understand your logiccutting off someone whole arm is far worse than
cutting off a finger or a hand.Shocking someone with 120 volts is surely
worse than shocking someone with 50 volts.Beating someone to death is far
worse than just beating someone.Therefore cutting off a small body
part, small electrical shocks or non lethal beatings are not torture.I am not totally against torture in very, very limited circumstances. And in
those circumstances, no one would ever find out about it.
Argh... I'm already recovered from "The horror of seeing our country
perpetrate torture". What I'm having a hard time recovering from is
these people who don't get it and are still fretting and pained by it all
these years later. We were under attack, and according to Al Qaeda more
attacks were coming. We needed the intel to prevent those attacks and save more
@SCfanI suggest you ask the question whether waterboarding is
torture to some of the veterans of WW2 who were captured by the Japanese. I am
sure they will be pleased to find out that they were not actually tortured but
just merely participating in "enhanced interrogations".Apparently your government also thinks a bit differently from then to now as
it executed Japanese soldiers who waterboarded Americans.
UT Brit,I think American prisoners of war suffered more than just
water-boarding. And if you asked WWII Vets... most don't agree with this
letter.The techniques used by Americans on detainees were necessary,
and legal (read the OLC memos).It's great that you don't
like waterboarding (I don't like it either). But don't over
dramatize it. I don't believe Americans actually executed Japanese over
waterboarding. If there were executions... there was a LOT more than just
waterboarding going on.
@2 bitsSo if I asked WW2 vets who were waterboarded to see if they
class it as torture they would not agree that it is? I would put a sizeable
chunk of money down that I would get the opposite answer if I were a betting
man. A government can make anything they want to be legal, I would
not consider that a particularly valid argument. The question should be, is it
the right thing to do?The evidence that convicted the Japanese and
led to their executions was based on the fact they were waterboarding, I cant
put up links but just type Japanese waterboarding to see numerous sources.
UT BritIf you asked WWII Vets in general... they would not agree with the
whinny letter. Actual WWII war vets agreed with the cause they were fighting
for. They would not only waterboard someone to win... they shot people, they
bombed people, they killed people in hand-to-hand combat! I doubt they would
get teary-eyed about waterboarding.If you asked WWII Vets who were
waterboarded (don't know how many of them there are but...) I don't
think they would agree with the letter. They would understand that their
sacrifice was small compared to the even greater sacrifice of lost limbs and
their LIVES made by hundreds of thousands of soldiers. They understand that it
was the price of our liberty, and they were PROUD to pay it. No.. they would
not whine about our waterboarding terrorists who had info that could have
prevented 9/11 followup attacks.Remember... the people waterboarded
bragged they would carry out biological and chemical attacks on innocent
Americans (remember the DHS said the probability of followup attacks was 100%).
We had to do SOMETHING! Just being nice and hoping the followup attacks
didn't happen was NOT an option.
UT BritWhy don't you read about some of the real abuses done by
the Japanese in WW11. When you read them, you will understand that if an
American was waterborder and somehow remained alive and was not drowned, he will
be very thankful he didn't suffer the pain his fellow soldiers had to die
by. Our waterbording is not meant to kill. Joe Blow
My point was that the degrees is where true torture comes in. Some would say
that making a Muslim eat pork is abuse, even if it were prepared by Wolfgang
Puck. Cutting off body parts and or electrical shocking are certainly torture.
And in most cases cause permanent damage to the body. Waterbording is very
uncomfortable, but as I understand it, in military SERE training some are
waterborded just so they can experience such things. No one has body parts cut
off as part of training. I hate the evil of torture, but if I was captured by
Al Queda and knew the only thing that would happen to me is waterbording,
I'd thank the humanity of my captor. You should read what they do. Or
maybe you shouldn't.
So according to 2 bits, another war hawk who apparently hasn't served his
country, but speaks for those who have we should lower our standards to those of
the bad guy, thus becoming what we used to despise....and since
I'm pretty sure you were not doing the torturing, you have no idea what was
said, this is just the usual propaganda to make folks feel better about
torturing the other guy.UTbrit is correct in pointing out your
hypocrisy in that we EXECUTED people for what your saying is OK to do, if we do
it.The truth remains the same, don't justify bad behavior with
more bad behavior.
UT Brit,Waterboarding was not among the worst things the Japanese did to
their prisoners of war. Google "Japanese war crimes". Put down the
leftist propaganda sites and read about the actual history. Read about the
Bataan Death March or any other historic accounts. Waterboarding was the LEAST
of our worries.
I thought that sole was the ability to put yourself in someone else-es shoes.
Obama ran for office on the promise that he would stop water-boarding and close
that prison. Has he done that? He not only has not closed the prison, but he
has used drones to kill innocent men, women and children. Nothing that he says
can be trusted. He seems to think that we're a nation of fools to whom he
can lie for political gain. What's worse, water-boarding or the
"politician" who tells us that he will stop water-boarding - until he is
elected, and then he proceeds to do everything that he told us he would not do?
Mike said: What's worse, water-boarding or the "politician" who
tells us that he will stop water-boarding - until he is elected, and then he
proceeds to do everything that he told us he would not do?In January
2009, with a change in administrations, U.S. President Barack Obama banned the
use of waterboarding and other forms of torture in interrogations of detainees.
In April 2009, the U.S. Department of Defense refused to say whether
waterboarding is still used for training (e.g. SERE) U.S. military personnel in
resistance to interrogation.Someones using partial facts and lies,
hint, it's not the guy in the white house.
@SCfan@2 bitsI probably know more about the pacific theatre
than both of you. Worst things can happen sure, but that does not somehow stop
waterboarding being torture. Read the accounts of veterans and people today who
have been waterboarded and it is difficult to come to any other conclusion. I
take it both of you have not been in a situation where you have been close to
drowning, thats what waterboarding simulates. I assure you the struggle and
panic you feel when drowning is not a pleasant experience.