One more reason why I did not donate to friends of scouting this year.
You've gotta stand for Something or your going to fall for anything!Sorry to see you fall Boy Scouts of UK.
Appeasement.......Isn't that how WW2 started? I dare say old chap that
Lord BP would rolling in his grave
Red, here are three things worth standing for that you're missing:•some boys are not raised in conventional faith traditions but, like all
other young men, need the support and camaraderie that the boy scouts offer •regardless of whether a boy believes in Him or not, God loves all
His sons and wants them to associate with other people and groups that have
positive values that are calculated to bring the boy closer to his Father•organizations need to evolve with changing times and adapt to
changing circumstances in order to thriveI'm thrilled that the
Boy Scouts of UK recognizes the value of, and need for, Scout values and
experiences in the lives of all young men. Both that organization and the boys
in the UK will benefit from this change.
There is nothing more central, more basic, more important to the Boy Scout
movement than Duty to God. It is why Lord Baden Powell began the movement.
With out God, the very foundation of Scouting crumbles. A sad day for a
wonderful movement that has influenced millions for good.
If this is the direction they are going to be taking, then I will no longer be
making donations to them.
This is awful! Saying “God” in the oath is the
foundation for all the morals these scouts will learn. Without saying
“God” all their efforts will be meaningless, their merit badges will
be shallow symbols of moral decay, and they will inevitably fall into
selfishness, decadence and debauchery… um… not.
This is a laudable step in the progress and growth of Boy Scouts. Finally the
people in charge are using logic and reason, not just in the administration of
the scouting program, but in the core values and beliefs as well. There is no
price for teaching kids to have beliefs based on facts and evidence.
Welcome to the world of PC.
How sad that so many are so intolerant and hateful of those who do not believe
in the fairy tales of religion.
I don't know why this would ever be some sort of controversy, you can
always worship "God" in... oh say a Church or in the privacy of your own
home. If the Boy Scouts are so hung up on religion why not call them the
Christian Solders or God Scouts? There are plenty of places to worship God.
@GandalfYou are correct with your points 1 & 2. Not with 3.
True, some organizations may need to evolve. But when faith-based organizations
evolve by changing their core tenets--actually, ANY organization that does
so--is no longer the organization that it was. The Boy Scouts was formed on
principles that should never change, the principles based on faith in God.
That's why the LDS church embraces the BSA and has done so for 100 years.
If there are those who want all you say in your post, let them start their own
organization. @Red did not miss a thing.
Unbelievable. Literally. In the rush to be all-inclusive, the British Scouts
have EXCLUDED the Creator ... the one being who loves us all, put us here, and
includes each of us in His family. That isn't inclusive at all.Sure, there ought to be an organization where EVERYONE is accepted regardless
of belief, and taught values and morals. That organization ought to be SCHOOL.
Certainly, atheists and others who wish to ignore God were always free to
organize a program to their liking. Nothing would be lost in doing so. (Scouts
are divided into troops as it is.) It is not divisive or destructive to have
youth programs for those who do not want God in them. The British chose instead
to obliterate the core faith of an entire organization so it would reflect
atheist non-belief over devotion to God. Now those who wish to have God deeply
involved in a scouting program have nowhere to go ... or must start from scratch
to rebuild all they have accomplished. Shameful.Having a youth group
that acknowledges God and exercises faith in Him IS NOT intolerant. Demanding
the removal of expressions of faith to make some feel better IS intolerant.
First, remember this isn't the BSA. It's the UK equivalent. Second,
these were founded as religious groups and are cow tailing to the aggressive
anti-religious movement bent on taking over and deleting God from everything. I
see this as intolerance yet again from atheists. It says "I've decided
to join your program, but you now have to delete your beliefs to make room for
me". If religion is a fairy tale, why do atheists care? Do they cry when
their kids join say the Harry Potter fan club and the material you sign mentions
magic and Hogwarts?
Take a deep breath. It is just a matter of time before God is deleted from
scouting in America. All religions are giving way to the facts found is
science. The logic is science trumps myth.
What difference does it make if the oath mentions God or not? Scouting
isn't a church, it doesn't focus on teaching about God or any
particular religion, and that's not its purpose for being.
I agree with what Red said. You couldn't have said it better Red.RedSan Antonia, TXYou've gotta stand for Something or your
going to fall for anything!Sorry to see you fall Boy Scouts of UK.
All that's left is to eliminate "Boy" so no one feels left out
Re: "How sad that so many are so intolerant and hateful of those who do not
believe in the fairy tales of religion."And, of course,
there's no ironic hint of intolerance or hatred evident in such a
comment?What's actually sad is how liberals/atheists have
contorted the American political landscape and embedded in our language and
culture their loathsome, newspeak definitions of "hate" and
"tolerance."It's to the point now, that it's
becoming accepted, certainly politically correct, to hate and refuse to tolerate
religion, religious people, and religious beliefs.And it's all
being done in the name of this new liberal definition of "tolerance."
If atheists would build a hall to meet in and socialize, they would have
something to do besides sit around and bash religion. Enough!!!
Science has its own myths. Some adhere to it more aggressively than most
Rocket Science said: "There is nothing more central, more basic, more
important to the Boy Scout movement than Duty to God. It is why Lord Baden
Powell began the movement." Wrong, it was to train young men to
be ready for the armed forces.England has a state religion, Duty to God
was Duty to State.
I'll take the "myths" of religion that give me the desire to serve
others, donate time and money to charity, abstain from things that degrade, give
me a positive outlook on life, and force me to examine the error of my ways in a
bid to better the world. I'll take this over political correctness which
looks for controversy in every breath, seeks to discredit the beliefs of
billions that have survived millennia, calls God a fairy tale, fights for the
"rights" of the criminal rather than victims, lives life in protest
rather than in peace and joy, destroys rather than builds, etc. Yes, there are
those among the great congregations of God that live similarly to the PCers, but
I and a vast army of my brothers are content. You can try to morph me all you
want but I will forever strive to live a cleaner, more God-centered life
'til the end of my days. That is an oath I took as an Eagle Scout and as a
worshiper of the Almighty God.
Yeah Yeah Yeah the atheists claim that they're not trying to force others
to share their same viewpoint. Same with the LGBT community. They claim that
they just want to be treated the same blah blah blah blah and once they're
in then they exercise other "rights" until they have forced their view
point on people who don't share that same unbelief or lifestyle."Give them an inch and they'll take a mile" or "No good deed
@paintanddestroy: All that's left is to eliminate "Boy" so no one
feels left out"I hate to break it to you, but the athiests and
progressives wouldn't stop there. There is that pesky "morally
straight" clause that needs to be eliminated by the GLBT community; the
"duty to country" that is antithema to the open border crowd; the
"mentally awake" part that seems to go against the "legalize
pot" crowd; etc.,etc..
Duty to an invisible man in the sky, or duty to real humans? I'll
associate with those who serve real humans.
Britain is where the Scouting movement came from and the anti-God people in our
country will use this as leverage to get rid of "In God We Trust" and
any reference to God taken out of our documents and history. Hopefully, the Boy
Scouts of America will stand for truth and integrity in what they believe. The adversaries of agency want to take away all of the internal spirit
from people so they can be in bondage to everyone and everything without
principles. There still is a Principal and that is God. The
Conference this past weekend did not say it would be easy but God is on the side
of freedom and hope. We need to pray for His help everyday and should be
thankful for the Plan He has for us even though not easy with the great and
spacious building and people throwing darts in every direction.I am
grateful for my ancestors that came to this land prior to being a country in the
1600s from England. It is a great opportunity to keep the faith in Scouting and
everything else that is good.
@Pilot70 – “Certainly, atheists and others who wish to ignore God
were always free to organize a program to their liking.”One of
our major problems in society today is how, rather than truly trying to
understand another’s point of view, we instead demonize, caricature, and
otherwise attribute views to them they don’t really hold (usually of the
straw man variety so we can easily dismiss them).So in the spirit of
not doing that, please consider this thought experiment. Reread you comment
using the word Zeus in place of God. Would you feel comfortable with your kids
saying an oath to Zeus? That’s exactly how it looks to us
(agnostics, skeptics) whenever we want to participate (or especially have our
kids involved) in a non-religious organization that we value (and the BSA
teaching terrific values).And it goes both ways – the Scouts
should not be a place for people like me to promote skepticism towards religion.
I can do that on my own time just as you can worship on yours.I
would much rather live in American vs. the Balkans (i.e., we can co-exist).Peace…
I heartily agree with paintanddestroy. "Boy" is clearly sexist, and
alienates non-Boys. It fosters gender-identity. And not only am I glad The
Scouts removed "God" from the oath, I think it should be removed from
all public discourse. I'm am tired of being emotionally traumatized every
time someone says "God Bless You" whenever I sneeze. Inconsiderate
Neanderthals. If it doesn't stop, I will sue.
"Professing themselves to be wise they became fools...."We took
God out of school and look what has happened. We have taken God out of
government and look was is happening. As much as our overly educated
spiritually starved liberals want to think we are evolving for better we are
I am all for inclusiveness but that does not ever mean that we forget the
Creator of all. We are taking out the most loving personage in the Universe to
satisfy a few whims of the world. It is sad and unacceptable. Lucky for me I
do not have to make the decisions that influence the removal of God from our
lives because not matter what you think you believe God is still the Creator,
the Loving Heavenly Father, our God, this is sad on our part and I am sure he
also feels sadness at this choice. What is next, removing God from Church so we
don't offend anyone wanting to walk into His Home.
This is not an effort to take God out of the Boy Scouts, this is an effort to
take Godout of the minds and actions of the young. Those still developing
standards, goals and values. And has been stated, you can see what has
happened to our culture as God and been removed fromschools...government...and our culture.I have a library of old radio
programs, imagine how " A Family that Prays together, Stays together"would go over today from a Hollywood produced program that went into homes
throughout the USA before we became so 'educated and sophisticated'.
Already in Germany they are taking children away from their parents
because they are too 'religious'. How long before they start
'goose stepping' into our homes?
@ Gandalf, there are other ways to give boys "support and camaraderie"
and have them "associate with other people and groups that have positive
values" without removing THE central guiding concept from Boy Scouts. Should
a church stop outward worship of God, because then atheists will be more likely
to come and hang around good people? The Boy Scouts is not a church, but it is
definitely a religious group. Or at least, it used to be.The British
scouts probably did think they needed to "adapt to changing circumstances in
order to thrive"—meaning they weren't making enough money to keep
going, so now they can charge their outrageous prices to atheists as well. I
somehow doubt it will make much of a difference.
This is fantastic news! Every freedom loving person should be rejoicing over
this news. Either an organization is inclusive or it is not. Removing the word
God from their oath is another step towards inclusivity. United we stand divided
I want to join your club even though I do not believe in what you believe in.
Oh, by the way, will you please change your club so it better conforms to my
beliefs. What, you will not give us what you believe to accommodate what I
believe. What a bunch of haters!
Several of the comments indicated not wishing to donate to the BSA any more
because of this. Well, this was done by the boy scout organization in the UK
and not in the U.S. It would be a shame to withhold support from the BSA on the
basis of a decision that does not involve the Boy Scouts of AMERICA. The BSA
still pledge to do their "Duty to God." I hope it stays that way.
Re: The Scientist"How sad that so many are so intolerant and
hateful of those who do not believe in the fairy tales of religion."You put the lie to the sentiment with your choice of words.
@Ernest - The First and Great Commandment is to love God. And the Second is like
unto it - Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. I embrace these two greatest
commandments and strive to live by them. That doesn't mean I always need to
agree with my neighbor, but that I should love and respect them as Children of
God. I feel the same for you my brother. My Church teaches me to serve others,
which I believe involves real people. So whether you believe I am misguided in
my adherence to command one, my adherence to command two fits with your line
about serving real people quite well.
@ MoontanThe word "boy" is now sexist because it alienates
non-boys? It's that type of attitude towards gender is leading to the
destruction of the family unit in our society. Attitudes like "we're
all the same" is nonsense. Boys and girls are different. They have different
talents and abilities that one gender is stronger at than the other.
They're created differently by God so we have a gender identity so we all
know that we're sons and daughters of God. The boy scouts is a
privately funded organization that teaches young men moral principles and not
just activities to collect merit badges. If you don't like the boy scouts
because it uses "God" in their oath. Then don't have your sons (if
you have any) join the boy scouts. Girls have a girl scout organization they can
join. But please don't force your secular beliefs on us. That offends us
all! You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.God bless you!
For those who are commenting on this article and indicate that science somehow
invalids the belief in God and therefore the UK scouts are correct in their
decision - Please explain your scientific theory for the following:How was life created in the first place (meaning DNA molecules being formed
etc.)?Why do humans have a conscience?How was the earth
is perfectly designed to support the millions of forms of life?As
someone with a graduate degree in a scientific field I am geniunely curious
about your response. I could list many other questions but these will suffice
Shout out to Pilot70, jskains, paintandestroy, procuradorfiscal, & tenx.@Beverly Watch out for what YOU believe in (science). Science has shown
time and time again that it is clearly NOT infallible nor free from corruption.
Let's go way back to when Science embraced geocentrism until Galileo came
along. So I guess logic changes? (Just following your argument here.) And what
about the modern day Myth (with a capital "M") of "anthropomorphic
global warming?" Talk about falsifying data, money greed, and manipulation.
And let's not forget, according to your "infallible" Science, we
actually should have been already dying and extinct by now from an ice age that
was supposed to occur in the 80's and 90's. At least that's what
Science said.I'm with all the shout outs above--Look, you
atheists can go form your own organization. I would applaud that. It's your
right. I'm disappointed that the UK Boy Scouts caved. It's their
organization and others who do not agree with it should just mind their own
business. And the UK Boy Scouts should understand and mind its business and do
@1978 – “As someone with a graduate degree in a scientific field I
am geniunely curious about your response.I have never heard a
scientist claim that science is all done and we now have all the answers.So the more interesting question is, “what’s wrong with
simply saying I don’t know?”Is it your contention that you
know how all this was done, or at least the “Being” responsible for
it (assuming one is needed, which is doubtful given our knowledge of
evolutionary biology)?And here are a couple questions that I think
puts this topic in better perspective:1.Name a demonstrable fact
about the natural world for which we once had a religious explanation but now
have a better scientific explanation.2.Name a demonstrable fact
about the natural world for which we once had a scientific explanation that has
now been superseded by a better religious explanation. I hope
it’s obvious that the answer to #1 is “countless” and the
answer to #2 is “none.” What would anyone believe this solely
one-directional trend won’t continue?
@Bleed Crimson and to any others that read Moontan's comment--he was being
very (hilariously IMO) sarcastic!
@Bleed Crimson ... I was being facetious. In truth, I entirely agree with you.
Removing references to God will have only negative consequences, as indeed we
see happening now.
Are the Scouts becoming anti-science? Because there is science which proves the
existence of God. Nuclear physicist, Dr. Gerald Schroeder, retired MIT
professor, has written several books on the proof of God:"The
Science of God: The Convergence of Science and Biblical Wisdom""The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth.""God According to God: A Scientist Discovers We've Been Wrong About
God All Along."
Happy Valley, I respectifully correct your view. The Boy Scout Movement Lord
Baden Powell began was not to prepare young men for military but rahter to
prepare young men to me jesus Christ at his coming. You can say that is a myth
or whatever but the very basis of Boys Scouts was and is religion. As they
abandon that base in GB Boys Scout will begin to crumble. I feel sorry for the
young men and boys of Great Britan - the birth Place of the greatest youth
movement the world has known.Please consider the approach reflected
in Robert Baden-Powell’s vision of Scouting. “There is no religious
side to the movement,” he declared in 1920. “The whole of it is
based on religion, that is, on the realisation and service of God.”
20 years later he may have said that, but that's NOT how or why it
started.In 1900, Baden-Powell became a national hero in Britain for
his 217-day defense of Mafeking in the South African War. Soon after, Aids to
Scouting, a military field manual he had written for British soldiers in 1899,
caught on with a younger audience. Boys loved the lessons on tracking and
observation and organized elaborate games using the book. Hearing this,
Baden-Powell decided to write a nonmilitary field manual for adolescents that
would also emphasize the importance of morality and good deeds.First, however, he decided to try out some of his ideas on an actual group of
boys. On July 25, 1907, he took a diverse group of 21 adolescents to Brownsea
Island in Dorsetshire where they set up camp for a fortnight. With the aid of
other instructors, he taught the boys about camping, observation, deduction,
woodcraft, boating, lifesaving, patriotism, and chivalry. Many of these lessons
were learned through inventive games that were very popular with the boys. The
first Boy Scouts meeting was a great success.
"We must never give up. We must not become discouraged. We must never
surrender to the forces of evil. We can and must maintain the standards for
which this Church has stood since it was organized. There is a better way than
the way of the world. If it means standing alone, we must do it. But we shall
not be alone. I am confident that there are millions of people throughout the
world who grieve over the evil they see about them. They love the virtuous, the
good, and the uplifting. They too will raise their voices and give of their
strength to the preservation of those values which are worthy of maintenance and
cultivation." ~ Gordan B. Hinckley 1-10-2004I know this mentions
the LDS Church, but it is the standards of the church that this quote refers
too. Yeah, not quite sure I would argue this.Does principal,
character, values, moral value mean anything to anyone anymore? This WORLD was
created and built on principals,character and moral value. Atheist can not say
they were built on the same thing, because Atheism was built on negative
teachings. You can't argue that point.
I'm and Eagle Scout with 6 palms. I've worked at scout camps in Utah
and Catalina Island for years. Religion really is a side note, Not the main
attraction to scouting. Do folks really believe that another church meeting to
preach religion is attracting young men?Camping, exploring, learning
skills and games and socializing is why scouts have existed so long.
@Tyler DSo your answer to questions 1, 2 & 3 are:I
don't knowI don't knowI don't knowThank You for your response.
Thank you BSA. I no longer feel like I have to give to nor will I give to
"Friends of Scouting".
It could actually work out OK, because when these kids see how things in life
actually work, they might start believing in a Power Greater than themselves. I
just call that Power God.
And what may I ask is a 'spiritual life?' Hitler thought he was
spiritual, and the humanists (an oxymoron if there ever was one)will never
explain what that means because they haven't a clue as to what it means.
Whatever they say can only be construed as prejudice against those who have a
different view. When you can't find an answer or a definition,
doesn't that say something about your educational level, or at minimum,
your prejudice, bias, and bigotry?
Tyler DYou must not realize that prophets in scripture knew much
more about the universe, than science did back in the days when the earth was
flat, or the sun revolved around the earth, was the best science of the day.
I'm referring to the Pearl of Great Price. And while we are at
it. All you need to prove to us is that "something" can come from
"nothing" and I will believe in evolution and give up this belief in a
prime mover. You and I both know that until that "unprovable" theory is
proven, you evolutionists are pretty well stuck as to explain the of existance
of any kind of matter at all.
To 1978Answers for you1. Evolution-There are several books out
there. If you really know science I know you can find them.2.
Evolution-A conscience could be described as moral behavior. Humans are not the
only ones with moral behavior. Moral behavior is an evolutionary advantage for
the survival of the group. An example would be the work of Frans de Waal and the
morality of animals.3. I will quote Douglas Adams for this one
"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an
interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in
—fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly
well, must have been made to have me in it!" This is what some humans
believe about their world. It wasn't made for us, we just evolved to fit it
like every other species on Earth.
Saying it's magic or a God did it, is not a rebuttal to science as to why
something exists, it's just lazy. Religion has always feared
science, nothing new, except they aren't aloud to kill them anymore.
@1978 – “So your answer to questions 1, 2 & 3 are: I don't
know… Thank You for your response.”Sure…
what’s your point?And can we assume by your lack of response
to my two questions that you agree with the answers and that our best course of
action for pursuing the answers to those questions is through science and not
religion?@SCfan – “…prove to us is that
"something" can come from "nothing" and I will believe in
evolution and give up this belief in a prime mover. You missed the
point – which was not that science has all the answers, but rather what is
our best means of attaining knowledge about the natural world. So far, science
is ahead of religion by about a million to zero, but who knows what the future
holds… maybe religion is due for a rally.And real science
(i.e., testable hypotheses, predictions, open to falsification) is only about
400 years old. Prior to that and with few exceptions (e.g., bits of Aristotle)
it was all just speculations, much of it with lots of religious &
superstitious overtones.Reached comment limit…
SCfan wrote:"...prophets in scripture knew much more about the
universe, than science did back in the days when the earth was flat, or the sun
revolved around the earth, was the best science of the day. I'm referring
to the Pearl of Great Price."IF prophets did know much more
about the universe than science, they sure failed to leave any evidence of such
knowledge. And the evidence they did leave in scripture (including the PofGP) is
There are more holes in the theory of evolution than it would take to fill the
Albert Hall. The more science I learn and understand the more my faith is
bolstered. God made an infinitely complex universe and one can see His hand in
the most minute particle of matter.
I do not see the problem with this change in UK scouting. I was a Boy Scout in
an LDS troop, and got zero religion from my scouting experience. My religion
came from my family and church. We had non-members who were atheists, and
attended our troop because they liked the scout activities and teachings of
scouting, which were secular.
"How was life created in the first place (meaning DNA molecules being formed
etc.)?Why do humans have a conscience?How was the earth
is perfectly designed to support the millions of forms of life?As
someone with a graduate degree in a scientific field I am geniunely curious
about your response. I could list many other questions but these will suffice
for now."1978, you claim to have a degree in a scientific field
and yet you ask those questions like they actually mean something. I assume you
are asking them to show that a God must exist (if not please clarify your
point). But if you really have a degree in a scientific field one
would think you would understand that there are many question that science has
not answered (nor, indeed, may ever answer), and yet all that means is there are
many question science hasn't answered. It does not point in anyway towards
a "God" as default.
If I as a God fearing and respecting person were to go to an atheist group or
meeting and start demanding they change what they teach or belief so I can
attend and feel comfortable in the group how would they respond? The world wide
Boy Scout organization is built on faith and religions of all kinds not just
Christian!!! Faith and belief in a Supreme Being is the foundation of the
group!!! I hope that BSA will not follow in this path or the LDS church will
withdraw its support of this fine program!!!
This will be my last post on this article because I am heading out of town in
the next few minutes.Let me summarize: Evolution as an answer to
the basic question of how everything came to be from unorganized matter is a
myth that is not supported by science when objectively looking at the facts and
conclusions. Evolution as an answer to how species adapt, change and survive is
totally valid.Evolution cannot answer the basic question of how life
was formed because it is a mathematical impossibility. None of the unnamed
books that have been listed can prove otherwise.The idea that organization
can come from chaos – without a superior force directing that effort - in
is direct contradiction to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.BTW real
scientists may not know about books on evolution but they do know and understand
basic laws of physics, mathematical probabilities and thermodynamics, etc.In conclusion if someone wants to belief in evolution because it fits
their lifestyle and educational philosophy that is fine with me. However to
state that it is a scientific fact as some have insinuated is completed false.
It is a myth masquerading as a theory.
The existence of God cannot be proven nor dis-proven, faith is what is needed
for a belief in God. Those who belittle and demean those of faith and then call
them bigots ought to look in the mirror. I have known and worked with some of
the top rocket scientists in the world, most of whom believe in God and Jesus
Christ, even though they have tremendous intellect they also have a simple
humble faith.Happy Valley, I am truly sorry that you were so
involved but missed the whole purpose of scouting movement. It was not founded
to prepare soldiers but did use the methods of scouting to excite young men to
do their Duty to God in the laboratory of the great outdoors with adventurous
activities. The methods of Scouting are a means to an end. Duty to God,
patriotism, respect for others and development of self. "No man
is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should
have a religion....Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and Serve
God. Second: Love and serve your neighbour." - (Lord Baden Powell, Scouting
For Boys, 1908)
My LDS faith teaches that America will ONLY continue to be a land of liberty and
freedom so long as they (as a majority) accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.
When America rejects God (as a majority) America will lose its economic freedom,
its liberty and its sovereignty. The prophet Mormon watched his people destroyed
by the Lamanites after they "rejected that Jesus who stood with open arms to
receive them". America WAS founded on Christian principles with a united
belief in Jesus Christ and also a tolerance to allow others to worship God
according to the dictates of their own conscious. Today the atheistic forces of
political progressivism are firmly entrenched in our government starting with
the White House and this plague is spreading like locusts from state to
state...in our schools, in our governments and yes within the boy scouts and
other youth organizations. You can scoff if you want - but at least do it after
educating yourself with other socialist and communist states and their sad
history. The ROOT of their fall was ATHEISM.
the Boy Scouts, started in England by lord Baden Powell to honor God, must be
rolling over in his grave. Without god, scouting is nothing but an outdoor
Why can you only 'like" a comment, but "not like" a comment?
"Evolution cannot answer the basic question of how life was formed because
it is a mathematical impossibility."No it's not, 1978. "The idea that organization can come from chaos – without a
superior force directing that effort - in is direct contradiction to the Second
Law of Thermodynamics."Oh. . . You're one of those. But you're still wrong. "America WAS founded on
Christian principles with a united belief in Jesus Christ "Oh my
gosh, that is just so false.
@1978 -- "The idea that organization can come from chaos --
without a superior force directing that effort - in is direct contradiction to
the Second Law of Thermodynamics."You appear to be
misinterpreting what that "superior force" needs to be.For
example, for decades scientists have been able to create amino acids and other
organic compounds, including DNA nucleobases, de novo in a test tube, by using
raw ingredients resembling the "primordial stew" and adding electricity.
So your "superior force" doesn't necessarily mean a Superior
Being.Unless you believe that electricity is God?
Thanks for that amazing insight mark
"Thanks for that amazing insight mark"Hey, your welcome,
Rico! Oh wait, you're being sarcastic, aren't you. Silly
you. I suppose you wanted me to go into more detail in my responses.
(But, of course, what you aren't taking into account is that the claims I
am replying to went into no detail themselves. For instance, saying this country
was founded on Christian principles with a united believe in Christ, is nothing
but an unsubstantiated claim itself, so really it deserves nothing more then the
response I gave, which was: no it wasn't. But, nonetheless, this claim has
been debated many times here and in other places, and it has been shown to be
wrong every time. I would be happy to provide you with the quotes from the
founders, as I have many times before, alas, I think this may be my last post.
And the claims made about evolution were presented with just as little substance
as the claim on Christianity, and have been addressed in detail elsewhere also,
so again, they really deserve no more of a response then I gave them.)
Anybody else ready for the Lord to come and solve this mess?...this cesspool of
evil, stupidity, cowardice and immorality called "life on earth"?I am....
@tenxIf atheists had a hall to meet and socialize in, likely sitting
around and bashing on religion would be their preferred social activity.
I think it is crazy always asking groups which do the most good to
"evolve" away from what gave them their strength in the first place.
There is always going to be somebody who doesn't like something about any
given group, but that shouldn't necessitate change. I agree the solution
is for them to start their own groups and quit expecting others to drop their
beliefs for yours. What will change next? I can assure you that the position
of morality held by BS is NOT that of say Justin Bieber or Miley Cyres. So do
we now forct them to "evolve" to include those whose standards are much
lower? We are slowly evolving away from what made us strong. To those who
argue that it merely reflects scientific thought, I would counter that what was
'scientific fact' in the earlier centuries is laughable today and what
is "scientific fact" today will be laughable in 100 years.
Atheists/secularists need to quit worrying about others "evolving" to
their points of view and get out and do some actual good in the world like the
groups they seek to change do.
Despicable decision. Removing God is exactly what the opposition wants. To
accommodate atheists but ignore Christians is ridiculous.
@sukiy --"I can assure you that the position of morality held by
BS is NOT that of say Justin Bieber or Miley Cyres."Justin
Bieber has loudly declared his Christian devotion many times over the years. He
was raised by conservative Christian evangelicals and is born again.Miley Cyrus was raised Southern Baptist. She was known in recent years for
wearing a "purity ring" as a sign of her faith.She has said
that her faith keeps her "grounded" and affirmed her desire to follow
Jesus. "Live like Christ and He'll live in you, and that's what I
want to do".In other words, being Christian isn't the same
thing as being moral. Not by a long shot.
Lets try this again. I wonder why my comments haven't shown up yet. Just
curious.I am amazed that the lds church continues to support and
treat scouting like its part of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Its the
only program I know of in the church that wasn't a restored principle or
inspired by the church leaders. Why do we continue to spend so much time, money
and energy with this secular organization? Half the church doesn't even
have a scout program. Why not get out of this scout tradition and create an
inspired program for the young men. Oh wait there already is one-the priesthood
and duty to God.
Guys, I am a boy scout, and I think this change is a great idea. It does not
say that this is the only way of saying the British Scout Oath, It Says that it
is an ALTERNATE way of saying the oath. "Scouting officials in the U.K.
said the Scout Promise has been altered before to accommodate Muslims, Hindus,
Buddhists and non-citizens who are not subjects of the queen." You do not
seem to be mad that the Muslims, Hindu's, and Buddhists got exceptions.I can not believe that you people are so immature so as to think that
the boy scouts is only for Christian or Religious people. IT actually says in
the Scout Oath "To help other people" and allowing secularists to join
can help them.
Also, "Scouting exists to actively engage and support young people in
their personal development, empowering them to make a positive contribution to
society."(http:// members.scouts.org.uk /fundamentals /?pageid=2944)No
where does it say that it is only for Christians, Secularists should get an
equal opportunity to benefit from scouting as the religious. Because that is
what scouting is about--bieng a positive influence.To those of you
who think it is a bad idea to allow Atheists into the BSA (Most of you are LDS,
or wouldn't be on Deseret News in the faith section. I am LDS also) is
this not a perfect opportunity for missionary work? Every member a missionary
Why not join every secularist club so that we can help them?
pleasnatgrove, go for it, but it seems like too much work for me. If you decide
to use the argument that they won't let us join because we are Christian
therefore we should not let them join BSA, then you have failed to look at the
whole picture. A Christ-like person would look beyond whether someone does not
let you into their club, and treat them in a kind and non-judging manner, while
being a good influence, and accepting them the way they are. Yet a Christ like
person would also try to convert them, but if this person asked us to stop
trying to convert them, a Christ-like person would still treat them lovingly,
@pleasantgrove --"Why not join every secularist club so that we
can help them?"Go for it. You might actually learn something.;-)
Whenever you "try to convert" us, you are condescendingly treating us as
inferior creatures who are not acceptable as we are, and you are relating to us
as a salesman relates to a "mark" (or a predator relates to prey) rather
than as real, equal human beings should relate to one another. As such, your way
of being is fundamentally insincere, dishonest, and unethical.Stop
trying to "convert" others! Live and exude your way of life with genuine
openness to the reality of others and their fundamental "acceptability"
as they are. If they feel a desire to change by virtue of your presence (not
your preachiness) in their lives, then they will do so.Why is that
so hard to understand?
You don't get either of my points. The church has adopted a man made
organization. Why? If a boy wants to be in a scout group go for it, but
don't make it part of the lds religion. It's the only man made
organization in a church that could easily set up its own inspired ym
program.My other point is, Scouting is only one of thousands of self
help/service groups, and we obviously aren't going to join them all or make
them all part of the church. Simplify stupid. Get scouting out of religion, we
have plenty of other better things to do.
@The Scientist, I think you are trying to pick a fight with Bingham HS Student,
but what you said is brilliant. I agree with that "convert" People just
need to accept each other as they are, and if they want someone to change, just
be an example, but don't try to force it onto them, and hope they change on
their own. I am a mormon, and this is very similar to how I think. I am still
planning on going on a mission, where I will be trying hard to convert people,
or "invite all to come unto Christ." But while I am at home, I think
that the best way to follow our prophet's council "every member a
missionary" is to just be an example, and hope that people you want to
"convert" come up to you. Now there are exceptions to my philosophy of
course, but in general, this is the safest way to do so without offending
Gasp! If they change the oath much more they'll find the magic words that
make the world explode! Seriously I'd say let's just get rid of the
thing. There are certainly much more effective ways to get into the spirit of
scouting than to recite a boring and over-generalized collection of platitudes.
Is this about the form or the function here?
Lord Baden-Powell called. He thinks you Brit Scouters are a bunch of pansies,
who wouldn't last five minutes on the veldt.
Wonderful news! This needs to happen in the USA.
@19781) "How was life created in the first place"Your question is a little flawed. "Created" assumes a creator and the
question answers itself.If you haven't studied abiogenesis,
it's a good place to start. Let's be fair and say that we've only
begun learning. More answers will come.2) "Why do humans have a
conscience?"It's a beneficial trait that reinforced as we
developed. Beyond that, you're assuming a purpose.3) "How
was the earth is perfectly designed to support the millions of forms of
life?"Again, the question is flawed in assuming a designer.We should expect our environment to support the life that's
here.People often think of your question in terms of odds. What are
the odds this could happen without a designer? Next time you walk outside, take
note of the first licence plate you see. The odds of you seeing that exact
combination of letters and numbers is extraordinarily unlikely. Then consider
the next license plate, the odds of those two consecutively are unimaginable!
Yet it just happened. Life, happens.Ultimately,
God's are divisive and threaten social cohesion. Good for you BSA!
On the flip side, this could be a chance for those scouts who do believe in God
to provide a positive example and experience to the children of unbelievers. You
never know, they may end up becoming believers.Not that I'm
advocating that the scouts do that in the states, just that if you're dealt
a blow you can either run and hide, withdrawing support and going into a bubble,
or you can step up and realize this could be an opportunity for the faithless to
receive some light and knowledge. You may not help all of them, but you might
Some these comments about only believing science and not god are ridiculous.
Remember when science said that the earth revolved around the moon?
Scientific theories are just that - theories. To put absolute faith in
scienctific theories (ie big bang) and none in god is unwise.
"Remember when science said that the earth revolved around the moon?"No, because "science" never said that."Scientific theories are just that - theories"Yep,
theories - models that explain known facts and make predictions.Religious myths are just that - myths.