Quantcast
Faith

End of Boy Scouts? Christian coalition creates new scouting group

Comments

Return To Article
  • Bob A. Bohey Marlborough, MA
    Sept. 9, 2013 10:49 a.m.

    I wonder how much harm will be done to young boys who will be forced to join this organization by their parents then have to hide their real identity. How very sad. Hopefully this group doesn't get a lot of support and it withers and goes away.

  • Go Big Blue!!! Bountiful, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 11:06 a.m.

    I just wrote a check to the BSA for friends of scouting for triple the amount I paid last year. I encourage all those that value scouting to do the same. The new policy is inline with the LDS Church and deserves the support of its members.

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 11:24 a.m.

    Everyone's "real identity" is as a son or daughter of God. Homosexuality is not an identity - it is a behavior. Same-sex attraction can be a part of someone's identity, but the behavior of acting out with someone of the same sex is not. Since I struggled with SSA earlier in my life, and no longer do, I can speak to the reality of this statement.

    I am sure this group will be met with extreme attacks and backlash from the gay activist groups. Tolerance is a relative term in society today, especially for the left.

  • bradleyc Layton, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 11:45 a.m.

    The LDS church has their Faith in God and Duty to God programs which support the BSA message of morality. It is too bad that the evangelicals are abandoning BSA when BSA's reach is much further than their own congregations.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 12:04 p.m.

    Re: "The new policy is inline with the LDS Church and deserves the support of its members."

    So far.

    There's no question that BSA National Council gave-in to pressure once, which leads to well-founded fears it may do so again. I agree that the current policy is one we can cautiously live with. Questions remain, however, and caution is certainly appropriate.

    This new scouting organization will probably not be our solution, however, to BSA going further off the rails. Its claim to be modeled after the American Heritage Girls gives reason to expect it will require a confession of faith similar to theirs. It begins: "We believe that there is One Triune God . . . ."

    While we might argue we can agree to such a statement, assuming we get to define terms as we see fit, the organization would likely disagree. Most likely, we will end up, like the Catholics, with an organization of our own.

    Most LDS Scouters are resigned to an admission that the real question is not whether, but rather, when.

  • Ralph Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 12:18 p.m.

    Thank God someone is willing to keep up the vigil against tolerance.
    If boys can't learn intolerance from the Boy Scouts or their church, who will teach them the correct groups to marginalize?

  • Oatmeal Woods Cross, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 12:26 p.m.

    Can thenew group deliver a quality experience at a lower cost? Scouting has grown into a money pit. The merit badges are approaching $3 each. Council camps are very expensive. Uniforms, equipment, etc. are all heavy burdens on sponsoring organizations. And "Friends of Scouting" goes towards paying six-figure salaries for professional scouters. It does not stay with the local unit. Much in Scouting to admire. But Scouting COULD improve itself.

  • Danish American Payson, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 12:41 p.m.

    Everyone, including Ralph, talks about tolerance and bullying. And yet it was a huge bullying effort by the LGBT that forced the BSA to change. Talk about tolerance, Ralph. The reason I won't write another check to the BSA is because they let themselves be bullied. The only way to stop bullies is by standing up to them.

  • calcu_lus tucson, az
    Sept. 9, 2013 12:45 p.m.

    With genome research still in its infancy, epigenetics and genetic expression is attempting to answer the question of obligated homosexuality. Activists will not wait when they have a political opening. The Supreme Court and others make political decisions before medicine and science show us the results of the path we will take. Theories abound from genes to a germ or pathogen in the environment. We should not normalize homosexuality until more research is done.

  • sashabill Morgan Hill, CA
    Sept. 9, 2013 12:54 p.m.

    "Walk worthy"?? That's interesting, considering that conservative Protestants are forever harping on how we are all inherently UNworthy.

  • ? SLC, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 1:09 p.m.

    I don't know how this new organization is going to be any different from the Boy Scouts. From the article it says, "Leaders say scouts who are gay will be allowed in, as long as they don't promote or engage in any sexual behavior that is a distraction to the program....Young men having same-sex attractions will not be excluded from the organization, though they will not be permitted to push a gay agenda or flaunt their sexual orientation."

    How is this any different from the Boy Scouts as it currently stands now? Sorry if I don't see a difference between the two. It sounds like in either organization all are welcome to join and all are expected to live by the scouting oath.

  • The Economist Newport, PA
    Sept. 9, 2013 1:17 p.m.

    I think the Boy Scouts should be congratulated on their new policy. They are still NOT advocating the having of sex: homosexual or heterosexual. They are only allowing a young man to be honest about experiencing a Same-Sex Attraction without the threat of being kicked out. This new group is using the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" philosophy.

    As far as the Mornon Church goes, the new BSA policy brings the Boy Scouts in line with the Honor Code at BYU that discourages sex, but allows a student to be honest about experiencing a Same-Sex Attraction. This has been amplified by General Authorities who have made it clear that experiencing a Same-Sex Attraction and being honest about it is NOT a SIN. The church has not changed it's policy of only advocating sex within heterosexual marriage. The negativity and accusations directed toward people experiencing a Same-Sex Attraction is wrong. The message should only be what the church offers towards those with Same-Sex Attraction and that is a life of Celibacy.

  • Say No to BO Mapleton, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 1:27 p.m.

    Institutions are caving to feminism, gays and illegal aliens.
    What BSA and the LDS Church are doing is predictable but disappointing.
    When they sacrificed The Family Proclamation I knew we were in trouble.

  • snowman Provo, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 1:28 p.m.

    Comtrary to what some people think, the boy scouts of america are not an LDS based group. The LDS only sponsor some of the units. Many religious groups sponsor units. And the Scouting is and should be open to all boys.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 1:40 p.m.

    Re: ". . . who will teach them the correct groups to marginalize?"

    No worries there. Leftist and LGBT groups are out in full force to do that.

    There's no shortage of liberals willing to suggest, to anyone who will listen, who it's politically correct to hate

  • One of a Few Layton, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 1:46 p.m.

    Probably stretches the definition of bullying to label a marginalized group a bully for standing up to the real bullies. LGBT aren't guilty until proven innocent. If the conservatives can't answer the question about why God made folks whose gender identities and attractions are different from there own and at least on the LDS side - our leaders have said they can't, then forget tolerance, we should be preaching and living loving acceptance and if God doesn't like it, hopefully He will let us know in more detail.

  • Aggielove Cache county, USA
    Sept. 9, 2013 2:05 p.m.

    So lets ask yourself this.
    Parents push there boy to this new program.
    Later on in life the boy puts this on his résumé that he is a eagle of the trails system.
    The hiring manager is homosexual.
    By doesn't get the job.

  • Democrat Provo, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 2:49 p.m.

    If we Christians want to have an impact on society, we need to be a part of society. A Christian's influence on mainstream organizations, education and politics is much greater when we are a part of those things--not when we break away. We live in a Republic which means we are all in this together and we don't always get our way--even on really important issues.

  • Ted Saint George, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 2:51 p.m.

    Good comment aggielove, but I've got a better one.
    I'm at my desk ready for interviews.
    Young man has Eagle Scout on resume'
    I have general knowledge of how hard moms and dads worked for these awards while young man probably did next to nothing. 15 yr old stands in front of group with deer in the headlights look on face to accept award.
    He may or may not get job because award doesn't mean what it use too and this shows during the interview.

  • Phranc SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 3:00 p.m.

    this never ending whining by the oppressors is really getting old. I am sorry you can longer openly oppress the gay community without people fighting against it but guess what your rights have not been taken away you can still hate all you want you just cant use the government or organizations that choose not to go along with you to do it. YOU ARE NOT VICTIMS.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 3:11 p.m.

    "Tolerance is a relative term in society today, especially for the left"
    since when in our history have we been expected to show tolerance towards the Oppressors? As Phranc says you are not a victim!

  • LivinLarge Bountiful, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 3:24 p.m.

    Even with the new BSA policy in place, lawsuits are going to come flooding in from disenfranchised youth who feel discriminated against. It is impossible to filter the activities, comments, stories and jokes that youth between the ages of 12 and 18 will be saying. I would never consent to being a Scout Leader under these circumstances, nor would I have allowed my four sons, all Eagle Scouts, to participate under this new BSA policy. It represents enormous exposure and risk for BSA sponsoring organizations and adult leaders.

  • sashabill Morgan Hill, CA
    Sept. 9, 2013 3:32 p.m.

    @Phranc, It's funny how the politically correct community throws the word "hate" around much the same way that right wing Protestants throw around the word "cult." In both cases, they never seem to define their use of those terms. I am forced to conclude, therefore, that "Hate" simply consists of any opinion or perspective which happens to be different from that of liberals.

    It's cleverly Orwellian how this works -- liberals are forever talking about concepts like "tolerance", "pluralism", "inclusiveness", and "diversity." When someone (such as the Boy Sclouts or Chick Fil-A) puts them to the test and calls on them to actually practice what they preach, however, then liberals whine that they are "offended," and their commitment to those concepts mysteriously disappears.

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Sept. 9, 2013 3:49 p.m.

    @sashabill --

    "I am forced to conclude, therefore, that "Hate" simply consists of any opinion or perspective which happens to be different from that of liberals."

    Pro-gay opinions don't kill people. Anti-gay opinions do.

    That's a huge difference -- and a huge justification for recognizing that one side is filled with true hatred of the other.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 4:02 p.m.

    Re: "As Phranc says you are not a victim!"

    Well, there you have it! Phranc says it. What more do we need?

    There's certainly no victimhood involved in the vile discrimination against Church members, Church property, and Church beliefs in the wake of Prop 8. It was simply a case of evildoers getting a taste of their own.

    Just like Kristallnacht.

    Move along. No hate here to see. Just "victims," victimizing those with whom they disagree.

    Dr. Goebbels would be so proud!

  • RG Buena Vista, VA
    Sept. 9, 2013 4:40 p.m.

    Just now I got an email (because of my involvement in the BSA at the district level) about a huge celebration on Oct 29 in the conference center celebrating 100 years of LDS in scouting. Council leaders from all over the country are invited to attend. And it will be broadcast, and LDS church buildings all over the USA to help recruit scouts, not just to LDS units, but to all units. Bottom line, the Church is still supporting the BSA.

    One comment mentioned 15 yr olds who get their eagle but their parents did all the work. Sad that that can happen, but many times the youth really do the stuff. I certainly did, back in 1985, but I also credit those who helped me.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 4:45 p.m.

    @procuradorfiscal

    what specific discrimination against church members or church believes? Have church member been killed for no other reason then being church members by the gay community? Gay people have often been beaten and killed for being gay. Has the church' belief's been outlawed l;like gay marriage? the couple examples of vandalize were wrong and should not have occurred but to claim you are a victim is laughable.

    Do any of you really believe that the founding fathers were worried about showing tolerance towards king George. Do any of you think that most of the members of the civil rights movement was worried about showing tolerance of heir oppressors. Do you think Gandhi cared if he offended the government of India? This Idea that we need to show tolerance towards oppression is silly.

  • tylert73 West Valley, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 5:55 p.m.

    What I don't like about the BSA policy is the phrase "openly gay." What does that mean? Is it someone that suffers from same gender attraction, and is open about the temptation to be strengthened and help others going through the same thing? Or does it mean someone that would attend a pride parade and thinks homosexuality is ok,but has not yet had sex? There is a big difference there.

  • Danite Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 6:57 p.m.

    As a side note question,

    Is anyone else struggling with "Friends of Scouting"? I've supported in the past and am an Eagle Scout but feel as if things have changed. I feel uncomfortable donating. Anyone else?

  • Sorry Charlie! SLC, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 7:53 p.m.

    So I get the whole join us for adventure and leadership part. They are going to do activities and groups like this certainly like to lead others but how exactly do you join someone for character?

  • Sorry Charlie! SLC, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 8:10 p.m.

    @danite
    no actually for the first time in two decades I feel like I finally recognize my beloved boy scouts again. I feel like i can finally pull my eagle scout out and show it with pride again.

  • TRUTH Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 8:14 p.m.

    I love it! Someone is still inspired on the side of Jesus Christ.

  • Nan BW ELder, CO
    Sept. 9, 2013 9:13 p.m.

    Ted, I know of an Eagle Scout who spent dozens of hours planning and doing the take down of a historic cabin which was moved to another location (long story). There were adults involved, but the young man and his contemporaries numbered the logs, expended a lot of energy and worked on days when the temperatures were 90 to 100. This cabin was a part of the Santa Fe Trail, and the logs are old and fragile so that posed another difficulty. Yet the job was done, and now it is being reassembled as a part of another scout's Eagle Project. The boys have learned about 1800s log cabin construction, effects of water and time, how to reassemble logs around windows and a door and how to reinforce an old structure without taking away from its antiquity. I haven't covered many of the details of this project because it was too hot for me to observe very long!
    Many history preservers of the community are so pleased that this project has been achieved.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 10:16 p.m.

    Religion can step in and wreck nearly everything.

  • Leftcoastrocky Los Angeles, CA
    Sept. 9, 2013 10:23 p.m.

    It is unfortunate that so many parents are fearful of homosexuality and homosexuals that they find BSA an unacceptable organization for their sons.

  • hockiechick Santa Monica, CA
    Sept. 9, 2013 10:49 p.m.

    @Ted...I'm sorry if the Eagle Scouts that you know are a lazy bunch of losers. The ones I've had the pleasure to know have worked hard to attain that level of success. I would be happy to give an Eagle Scout the benefit of the doubt if he had included that accomplishment on his resume.

  • Linguist Silver Spring, MD
    Sept. 10, 2013 4:50 a.m.

    This new organization will be "gay-free" up to and until the first boys start joining. Then it, like the rest of society, will have gay people in it.

    As some one who knew he was gay from a young age and hid the truth, I can tell you that policies such as this do nothing but intimidate and harm, giving good kids nowhere to turn for help.

    A far better approach is to let kids know they are loved, and that honesty is a good thing.

    It turned out to be so in my case, and the story had a good ending, complete with love and acceptance by those that mattered most to me. For others, not so much.

    And that is very sad.

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 6:49 a.m.

    I loved the song, Dear Abby by John Prine. You have no complaints. You are what you are and you ain't what you ain't. So listen up buster and listen up good. Stop wishing for bad luck and stop knocking on wood. Singed, Dear Abby.

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 7:18 a.m.

    @ spring street: "since when in our history have we been expected to show tolerance towards the Oppressors?"

    Thank you for proving my point. Apparently the left are the guardians of what "oppression" is, and therefore can make the determination for society who is worthy of tolerance and who is not?

    This is the core hypocrisy of the left. Tolerance is only for those they agree with. Since I choose to obey God and follow His commandments, I am labeled a "bigot" and marginalized by the left.

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 7:27 a.m.

    @ spring street: " Do any of you think that most of the members of the civil rights movement was worried about showing tolerance of heir oppressors."

    Have you ever bothered to read any of Martin Luther King Jr.'s sermons or writings? Your comment indicates you have not. Ghandi and MLK advocated and practiced passive means to change society, showing respect and love toward all in it.

    The LGBT want rights and control so they can oppress religious groups who disagreed with them. This is why they use the court system, bullying of those who donate to support Prop 8, and by calling people who disagree with them "bigots". There is no tolerance in that movement for anyone but those who agree with them. The pessure on the BSA was not to open it to gay kids, but to destroy it for fighting and winning court battles in past.

  • donn layton, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 8:10 a.m.

    @Contrariusester, "Pro-gay opinions don't kill people. Anti-gay opinions do.That's a huge difference -- and a huge justification for recognizing that one side is filled with true hatred of the other?

    When I lived in San Francisco, near golden-gate park, the Hetero-phobes were very aggressive towards Christians and would block the church entrance on occasions.

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Sept. 10, 2013 8:19 a.m.

    @RedWings --

    "Thank you for proving my point. Apparently the left are the guardians of what "oppression" is, and therefore can make the determination for society who is worthy of tolerance and who is not? "

    Anti-gay opinions KILL PEOPLE. **That** is oppression. Civil rights for homosexuals is **literally** a matter of life or death.

    There's an article in the DN today about a high school kid in California who was threatening to go to school to shoot "the blacks / and mexicans / halfbreeds / atheists / french / gays / liberals."

    THAT is what we're fighting against.

    Why in the WORLD would anyone want to tolerate attitudes that lead to this sort of threat?

    Gay people in the US are still **eight times** more likely to be the victims of violent crimes than white people.

    In some countries -- like Russia -- violent anti-gay mobs are egged on by the government.

    In some countries homosexuality is still **punishable by death**.

    That is NOT something that anyone should be asked to tolerate.

    Anti-gay opinions kill. Pro-gay opinions do not.

    I'll tolerate the one that doesn't kill, thanks.

  • Social Mod Fiscal Con West Jordan, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 8:32 a.m.

    @Phranc and @spring street

    The concern is not that we are the victims. It's the moral standards our society was built on which are the victims of the LGBT agenda.

    @Contrariusester

    "Pro-gay opinions don't kill people"
    Probably true, but history has shown a pattern of pro-gay attitudes killing off societies.

  • The Economist Newport, PA
    Sept. 10, 2013 9:34 a.m.

    A young man growing up in Scouting, and perhaps the Mormon Church, can have a very difficult and painful experience. A young person has been indoctrinated since childhood that they need to serve a mission, get married young in the temple, have a lot of kids, and magnify their callings, among other things, to get to the Celestial Kingdom. This can deeply traumatize a young homosexually oriented adult, who has to face that getting heterosexually married may be very bad advise. Some do get married, but most of these marriages lead to unhappiness, spouses feeling unfulfilled, and end up in tragic divorce. A young adult in Scouting and in the LDS Church needs to feel welcomed and given a message that a life of Celibacy can lead to happiness, too. Other religions practice celibacy including Catholic and Buddhist Monks, Nuns, etc. I've found happiness in celibacy and have been celibate for many years. Unless the day comes that the prophet receives revelation allowing Gay Marriage in the church, the church should give a positive message of celibacy to parents as an alternative. We should offer them love and support, and help them through there situation.

  • Sorry Charlie! SLC, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 9:36 a.m.

    @redwings
    Does Brown vs the board of education ring any bells?

    A few quotes by King and Gandhi
    “Judicial decrees may not change the heart, but they can restrain the heartless.” MLK
    “Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is force to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored.” MLK
    “The law may not be able to make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me.” MLK
    “Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.” MLK
    “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi

    @ocial Mod Fiscal Con

    the social values that believed the native American was an lesser race and had no right to their lands or their lives? that value?

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 10:16 a.m.

    @Contrariusester, "Pro-gay opinions don't kill people. Anti-gay opinions do.That's a huge difference -- and a huge justification for recognizing that one side is filled with true hatred of the other?

    go see the likes of Bash Back! and other violent gay activist groups, that threaten their opposition with threats of death and other violent acts.

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 10:26 a.m.

    @Contrariusester

    So, because some extremists act completely out of line and against the laws of the land, you would supress freedom of thought and expression? Funny, that is what the left usually fights against.

    Again, you proove the hypocrisy that exists with the left. Police cannot "profile" blacks or Muslims, but you seem fine in profiling all religious people as gay-killing hate mongers. I may be against gay marriage and its attack on religious freedom, but I would never think of killing a gay person. We are all God's children.

    If someone wants to live a secular life and act out on their same-sex attraction, that is ultimately their business. My problem is that the LGBT expect me to embrace that and celebrate a choice they made that is against my beliefs. Why do my beliefs matter so little to you when you expect me to sanction yours?

  • Jeffsfla Glendale, CA
    Sept. 10, 2013 10:45 a.m.

    I don't want to hear from Christians that they are being marginalized. They are doing it themselves. And while doing so are limiting their childrens life experiences and not preparing them for the real world they will be entering. I think the BSA continues to do so.

  • Scott H Ogden, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 10:56 a.m.

    I think that offering alternative scouting organizations to those that feel that they do not fit in the large monopolistic organizations will likely strengthen scouting overall and expand the number of youth served by scouting. Perhaps this could serve as a model for other groups that would like to offer children a scouting experience more suited to their own ideals.

    Still, if Trail Life USA is patterned after American Heritage Girls, its footprint will likely remain small. After 18 years of operation, AHG's membership is less than 0.7% of that of Girl Scouts USA. This approach hardly seems like a challenge to the viability of the BSA.

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Sept. 10, 2013 10:58 a.m.

    @Social Mod --

    "history has shown a pattern of pro-gay attitudes killing off societies."

    Baloney.

    Ancient Greece and Rome both survived for more than 1000 years each, all while encouraging homosexual relations. In fact, Rome didn't fall until a couple hundred years AFTER homosexual marriages were outlawed there.

    Please name ANY society which has been killed off by "pro-gay attitudes".

    @donn --

    "...Hetero-phobes were very aggressive towards Christians and would block the church entrance on occasions."

    First -- don't equate "Christian" with anti-gay or pro-straight. Many Christian denominations are already happy to perform gay marriages.

    And second -- since when is blocking a church entrance equivalent to murder??

    How many people do you think have ever been beaten or killed just for the "sin" of being straight?

    @jsf --

    "Bash Back!"

    1. Bash Back! disbanded two years ago;

    2. They were about PROTESTS, not violence; and

    3. They never killed anybody, nor even injured anyone AFAIK.

    @RedWings --

    "you seem fine in profiling all religious people as gay-killing hate mongers."

    Many gay people are religious. Seems YOU are the one who is profiling -- specifically, profiling pro-gay people as anti-Christian.

  • Pianoman Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 11:02 a.m.

    I don't really see why Trail Life USA was created, their stance on Gay Boy Scouts is the same as the BSA stance and the LDS church's stance: if you don't act on your homosexuality, you are more welcome to join. So not sure why this new organization was created...but I am a proud eagle scout and always will be!

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 11:26 a.m.

    @RedWings

    1) All you have to do is google about the religious American "Christians" going to Uganda and helping craft their anti-gay laws; laws that ALLOW killing of gays and you'll find why we distrust relgious people so much.

    2) I couldn't care less if you don't "embrace that and celebrate a choice they made that is against my beliefs". I do expect you to allow us the same privileges as citizens that you enjoy.

    3) "Why do my beliefs matter so little to you when you expect me to sanction yours?". Again, I couldn't care less about your beliefs, as long as you're not using them to discriminate against others you disagree with.

  • SteveOrr4576 Wayzata, MN
    Sept. 10, 2013 12:48 p.m.

    I have to roll my eyes at this reverence over Gandhi. The man argued that the Jews should line up & be slaughtered by the Nazis. This is the logical conclusion of the victim mentality, folks. I find more comfort in the Christian idea that we're all children of God.

  • Sorry Charlie! SLC, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 1:40 p.m.

    @steve
    "This is the logical conclusion of the victim mentality"? how so and what does it have to do with this conversation?

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 1:42 p.m.

    @Contrariusester They may have disbanded, but the individuals still exist and so does the violent rhetoric they used. You can not say the hate speech does not exist because this group disbanded. But claiming all lgbt are part of the same hate speech is the same as claiming all same-sex-marriage opponents equates to vile individuals who commit crimes against the lgbt community.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Sept. 10, 2013 2:25 p.m.

    @jsf --

    "the individuals still exist and so does the violent rhetoric they used. "

    Are you seriously trying to compare one small and short-lived group of angry gay men to a worldwide pattern of intimidation, violence, and murders? SERIOUSLY??

    Does this mean that Warren Jeffs really DOES represent the whole Mormon religion?

    ;-)

    "...s the same as claiming all same-sex-marriage opponents equates to vile individuals who commit crimes against the lgbt community."

    Fortunately, I haven't claimed any such thing.

    What I HAVE done is point out the FACT that anti-gay opinions kill.

    Every time somebody says homosexuals are "sinning" -- or "disgusting" -- or "perverted" -- or "anti-family" -- or "anti-Christian" -- EVERY time somebody says any of those things, or something similar -- they're reinforcing an image of homosexuals as "other" or "less than" or "inferior".

    And the reinforcement of that image -- that subhumanization -- is what makes so many people think that it's okay or even DESIRABLE to bash gay people. That constant diminishment of homosexuals' humanity is what makes violence and discrimination against them acceptable.

    I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it: anti-gay opinions kill.

  • The Economist Newport, PA
    Sept. 11, 2013 9:38 a.m.

    @Contrariuser,

    I agree with you that anti-Same-Sex-Attraction rhetoric kills, but also for some different reasons. Young men and women who experience Same-Sex Attraction and grow up in this Anti-Gay Society, such as the young men we're talking about in this article with Scouting, are more likely to commit suicide and live homelessly. Utah leads the country for the number of teenage gay suicides and homelessness. Much of this is due to negative attitudes against homosexuals that have existed within the Mormon Church, such as those publicized by some of the General Authorities in the past and especially in the book, Miracle of Forgiveness. Most all of these attitudes have been contradicted in the new church Web site, MormonsandGays.org. This was the result of a study that showed this negativity does no good at all and that showing love and support of gay youth accomplishes much more. Most importantly, if showing love and support will save a young person's life, it is worth more than money can buy.

  • Oatmeal Woods Cross, UT
    Sept. 11, 2013 1:39 p.m.

    The Economist:

    So since there have been drastic changes in society's views on homosexuality, has the suicide rate drastically decreased? No.

    I seriously doubt that society's views on homosexuality was the sole or even primary cause of these suicides. The rate has remained the same.

  • JLFuller Boise, ID
    Sept. 22, 2013 1:23 p.m.

    I just read A Trail Life's Statement of Faith and Values wherein they are quite specific about what I understand to be Trinitarianism, a confusing and unclear construct which is supposed to be fundamental to all "real" Christians according to some. I wonder if this ambiguous statement is meant to keep Mormons and other Christians who have a slightly different take on the Godhead out of the club. Of course the ATL supporters can do as they like but given the Church's passion and long-standing, strong support for The Boy Scouts of America, this seems to be loosing proposition for them. That is especially true when one considers that both groups exclude practicing homosexual leaders and those who promote the homosexual lifestyle but conditionally allow boys who suffer same sex attraction. As it stands in the BSA, each troop is free to include or exclude worship as they see fit so what is the big difference - except for the mandatory acceptance of a narrow definition of the Godhead?

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Oct. 4, 2013 12:34 p.m.

    What about the rights of non-gay people?

  • RBB Sandy, UT
    Oct. 10, 2013 10:51 a.m.

    What is the LDS church going to do when BSA takes that next step? I agree that you should not kick a boy our who is being moral regardless of who his is attracted to. I would bet, however, that within 5 years the LGBT community will be back at it insisting on openly gay scout masters or that scouts be allowed to stay in even if they are acting on their attraction. Likewise, the atheist zealots will be insisting on the removal of God scouting like they are doing in England. Fortunately, my son is done with scouting. How confident are you that the BSA won't cave next time? They came very close this go around.

  • TheWalker Saratoga Springs, UT
    Oct. 18, 2013 5:52 p.m.

    I was sad that the BSA chose to cave in to a homosexual agenda, and even more disappointed when the LDS and Catholic Churches continued to support them. The apostles can preach that homosexuality is a sin, but when the Church continues to support the BSA, then the message that is heard is something entirely different.