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Defending the Faith: Event convinced Saints of Brigham Young's mantle

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  • LittleStream Carson City, NV
    Sept. 5, 2013 7:59 a.m.

    There is such a difference when the members of our church allow Heavenly Father to pick the leader. This church would not have grown to the size it has without God learning it. That's why it is such a thrill to hear at testimony meetings that Joseph Smith was a prophet and Thomas Monson is a prophet today. Divinely inspired has a clear meaning to us.

  • gmlewis Houston, TX
    Sept. 5, 2013 8:26 a.m.

    The most important communication from heaven that each of us can receive is the assurance and conviction that Pres. Thomas S. Monson is the Lord's mouthpiece. I was converted to the Church having a testimony that Pres. David O. McKay was the Lord's spokesman, and I have sought that ratification from the Holy Ghost for each of his successors. I have served as a full-time, stake, and ward missionary for many years, and each time I could testify with certainty that the Prophet was the Lord's anointed.

  • Mormon Wookiee Riverton, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 9:00 a.m.

    Thanks for the recommendation, Dan. I'll be sure to check out the book.

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 9:04 a.m.

    Two of my great grandfathers were both eye and ear witnesses to this miracle. They were present at the meeting in Nauvoo and saw the face of Joseph and heard his voice as Brigham spoke. They came to the mountains with the Church and remained faithful for the rest of their lives.

    This was a true miracle that happened as a testimony from our Father that established the true succession for the leadership in the Church.

  • Verdad Orem, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 9:56 a.m.

    Maybe, Cats, you should check the article that Peterson references to make sure that your grandfathers' testimonies are included among the 121 gathered there?

    Anybody with a family tradition or a journal or whatever in which this is mentioned should do the same thing.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Sept. 5, 2013 11:16 a.m.

    LittleStream

    You think the churchs membership numbers indicate that it is led by god? Then how did the catholics get to over 30 times the size of the mormon church? There are many other religions that have huge numbers of members. How do you explain that?

  • MarkMAN West Columbia, TX
    Sept. 5, 2013 8:45 p.m.

    Cats,

    Who were they? I have a copy of Ezra Thompson Clark's written testimony at the end of this life where he firmly tells his family that he heard Brigham speak at that priesthood meeting. He bore testimony of the miricle. I will to go reread his words. I do not remember exactly what he wrote just that bore his testimony.

    Thanks for posting a note.

    Mark

  • Scores Idaho Falls, ID
    Sept. 5, 2013 8:50 p.m.

    The church membership is now around 15 million. This has happened in a relative short amount of time...just 183 years. The Catholic church has been going for many centuries and several protestant churches as well. It is calculated that the Mormon membership will be around 55 million by the year 2045. It's growing because of the teachings of the Mormon church and people are accepting it for what it is.

  • EternalPerspective Eldersburg, MD
    Sept. 6, 2013 4:56 a.m.

    Brahmabull

    The covenant people of God called "peculiar" by the Lord in the Bible were never meant to be a large percentage of the world's population because many disbelieve God's truths over worldly precepts.

    There are many good Catholics and I respect those who follow their chosen faith with conviction by living benevolent precepts. But, the reason why there are so many Catholics is largely because of tradition and a lineage with times closest to the mortal ministry of Jesus Christ.

    But, how many Catholics never go to church or just use the namesake, and what does Catholicism have in its doctrine that aligns exactly with the Bible, as well as require members live by Christ's example that He requires of disciples?

    The Jews or Israelites of the Old Testament were God's covenant people in that day, but numbers were small compared to populations in surrounding regions. They were persecuted throughout history because of their beliefs and practices. So too, Christians in early AD times received the same treatment.

    If God is unchangeable and Mormons are God's covenant people of this day in His Church, wouldn't the same pattern be evident?

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 8:55 a.m.

    RE: EternalPerspective, If God is unchangeable and Mormons are God's covenant people of this day in His Church, wouldn't the same pattern be evident?

    "We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement -- a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be.'" James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith.

    @The covenant people of God called "peculiar", by the Lord in the Bible.
    1 Peter 2:9 (NIV) But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s “special possession”, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

  • EternalPerspective Eldersburg, MD
    Sept. 6, 2013 10:15 a.m.

    sharrona

    I am a fan of Elder Talmage whose book "Jesus The Christ" in my opinion is the best account of the Savior's mortal ministry. It further proves the divinity of Jesus Christ as the cornerstone of God's Plan being the Redeemer of the world. It also demonstrates the unchangeable nature of God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost, Priesthood authority, covenants, and revelation. But, I digress...

    The Bible consistently shows we as imperfect spirit children of God sent to learn on earth by experience away from His direct presence. If that is true and I won't go into quotes here but there are many, and we can be joint heirs with Christ, why wouldn't a loving Heavenly Father whose image we are made, not want us to inherit all He has, or to become like Him? It is quite logical if you think about it, for that is the pattern of earthly fathers, save we are not perfect and do not look upon our children quite as God sees us.

    Check your references on "peculiar". There are 5 in the Old Testament and 2 in the New Testament. I love that scripture in 1 Peter 2:9.

  • Tori Fruit Heights, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 11:09 a.m.

    My Great Great Great Grandpa Henrie and my Great Great Grandpa Henrie were both there and testified that they thought that Joseph Smith was actually talking when Brigham Young began to speak. They knew that he was the right one to lead them.

  • Verdad Orem, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 1:21 p.m.

    Tori, please send the accounts of your two Henrie ancestors to Professor Peterson at BYU or to Sister Jorgensen at BYU Studies. I've just checked, and they're not among the 121 accounts that she's gathered.

    This is really important, historically speaking.

  • Michigander Westland, MI
    Sept. 6, 2013 2:23 p.m.

    "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie ..." (2 Thes. 2:11).

  • Michigander Westland, MI
    Sept. 6, 2013 2:25 p.m.

    "I also will choose their DELUSIONS, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." (Isaiah 66:4).

  • Michigander Westland, MI
    Sept. 6, 2013 2:34 p.m.

    There is only one mantle (priesthood authority) on the earth today, and that is the mantle that was passed from Sidney Rigdon to William Bickerton, etc., and it remains continuously unbroken today in The Church of Jesus Christ (WHQ: Monongahela, PA). This is His Church with all the gifts and power of God the same as it was in The Church of Jesus Christ of the 1st century A.D., and The Church of Jesus Christ of the period from May 15, 1829 to Apr.6, 1830.

  • zoar63 Mesa, AZ
    Sept. 6, 2013 4:43 p.m.

    @Brahmabull

    "You think the churchs membership numbers indicate that it is led by god? Then how did the catholics get to over 30 times the size of the mormon church? There are many other religions that have huge numbers of members. How do you explain that?"

    strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matt 7:14)


    And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few(1 Ne 14:12)

    From these scriptures it does not seem that the church will have huge numbers.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 7:27 p.m.

    RE: EternalPerspective, I love that scripture in 1 Peter 2:9. “Peculiar people”.

    1 Peter 2:9 (NIV) But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s “special possession”, that you may declare the praises of Him Who Called(elected) you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Verse 10, Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    Eph 1:4-5, For he chose=(elected), us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he Predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

    Rom 9:25-26, 25 .. Hosea: “I will call them(Christians)‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” and, “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’

  • Tahoemormon70 Bountiful, UT
    Sept. 7, 2013 9:50 a.m.

    This is to 'littlestream'. How do you understand the scripture that says, "Hence, many(1+ billion) are called, but few(15 million) are chosen?" I was studying, to my dismay, to become a catholic before my conversion to the LDS Church and I have to tell you that I understand what is meant by 'it's darkest before the dawn'. I suffered belittling verbal and emotional abuse when I would question the holy trinity and nicene creed ideologies that the catholic church professes to be correct doctrine. When my parents and brothers found out that I had become a Latter-day Saint, their priest told them to cut me off like a gangrenous foot. To this day, 25 years later, they still persecute me due to how I worship Our Heavenly Father and His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. When a person becomes catholic, he/she takes upon himself/herself the name catholic, not the name of Christ nor do they become saints unto the Most High. When a person becomes LDS, he/she takes upon himself/herself the name of Christ and does become a fellow saint within the Church of Christ. Go figure!

  • The Caravan Moves On Enid, OK
    Sept. 7, 2013 6:38 p.m.

    @ Verdad - Orem, UT - "Maybe, Cats, you should check the article that Peterson references to make sure that your grandfathers' testimonies are included among the 121 gathered there?"

    Verdad -

    Did you ever stop and consider that perhaps Cats' relatives wrote a first-hand account of this event in a personal journal but that THEIR specific witness (ie, their "testimony") of the event was not included in this book?

    Just because their testimony may not have been included in the book mentioned does not mean they didn't see a 'transformation' occur.

    Cats....you go, girl!

  • The Caravan Moves On Enid, OK
    Sept. 7, 2013 7:08 p.m.

    @ Verdad -

    My apologies. I thought you were being critical of Cats' statement. I see now that you were not.

    @ sharrona -

    You post an LDS member's statment that we believe God is "unchangeable" and then post a quote from an LDS leader who says that God is "progressive" and that he grew and developed over time and THAT is your argument that LDS members and their theology is flawed and therefore false?

    Oh, brother....

    The "unchangeable" portion of God's character is that God, after He became truly perfect, is forever constant (i.e., "unchangeable") in His perfection, His honesty, integrity and love, NOT that He does not experience change in His surroundings/changes in events around him. In other words, God's CHARACTER is unchangeable, the events and experiences around Him are not.

    I respect you for being willing to humble yourself before God, but the key to understanding what God wants for you is to understand who you REALLY are....not just a "creation" of God but literally his "child".....and what loving parent wants to purposely hold their child back to a level BELOW them? Why would a god of LOVE choose to do that?

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Sept. 7, 2013 9:44 p.m.

    RE:The Caravan Moves On,....not just a "creation" of God but literally his "child" .....

    Creation is dependent on God for it’s very existence. “For in him we live and move and have our Being...(Acts 17:28) , We are all created generically but, You must be adopted into his family by faith.

    Romans 8:14-16,For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

    (John 4:24).God [is]spirit. (*pneuma ο theos). There is ‘*no article’ in the Greek text before the word spirit, that emphasizes the quality or essence of the word. Furthermore, the word spirit occurs first in the sentence for emphasis. The literal idea would be something like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is God.” Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God(The Father)= spirit.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Sept. 9, 2013 12:12 p.m.

    EternalPerspective

    So I have members saying the big numbers of the church is evidence of its truthfulness, and others saying that the church wasn't meant to be for everybody. That is striking because if gods plan was to have eternal life for all of his children then I would think he would have the firsight to create one church that offers it to everybody, not just a select crowd. I get the whole idea of "straight is the gate, narrow the way" but I just don't buy it. It doesn't make sense for god to only want to save such a small percentage of his children.

    On the same token you mentioned how many catholics don't go to church, etc. Do you realize how many mormons are inactive? Mormonism is every bit about tradition as the catholic church is in my opinion. At least that is the case with every mormon I have known. Come to think of it, that could be said for many religions.

  • 9MM Murray, UT
    Sept. 9, 2013 3:29 p.m.

    I think that it is very important to note that from this article, each individual can gain their own spiritual witness of who is the authorized Lord's servant on this earth.
    I am indeed grateful that a personal witness from God is what I need to know to do what is right. I do not need to know all things, I do not need to study for endless hours, and I certainly do not have to rely on other individuals to obtain this witness.
    The simple fact that all individuals, no matter of their religion or location, are capable and do at times, receive their own witness of what is right and true, is a testament to the universality of God.
    And despite the almost universal rejection of God, even in his mortal ministry was he rejected by those who professed to know him the most, God has been ever inviting us to follow Him through his prophetic servants.
    I would regret to have been the one who professed to know God, and yet would be the one that knows Him the least!

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Oct. 7, 2013 1:42 p.m.

    The birth of myths. Isn't it strange how all the mysteries and miracles are always in the past without evidence; never nothing current where it can be examined and verified, however, the church claims modern day revelation, but: never reveals or demonstrates anything current, it is always in the dark unknown past where no one can witness it. Yet is seems there is more going on in the world today than at anytime in the past. It is easy to be a prophet of the past, or the distant future (there is no way to prove one wrong); but prophets of present day activates and current history are easily exposed by errors and silence.

  • Luke Nelson West Valley City, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 5:37 p.m.

    @Skeptic

    "...however, the church claims modern day revelation, but: never reveals or demonstrates anything current..."

    They tell us all the time that abortion and homosexual marriage is wrong. That seems pretty current and relevant to me.

  • dustman Gallup, NM
    Oct. 8, 2013 11:00 a.m.

    When Brigham Young was transfigured, what was he speaking on? Can I find a copy of that talk?