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BYU among top 25 choices for high-performing high schoolers, study says

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  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    Aug. 15, 2013 8:45 p.m.

    Well, lets see...

    There was the top four, plus West Virginia and Duke. That leaves 15 schools better than you. Oh, and of course the PAC 12 schools. Obviously they are all superior academically to BYU.

    I wonder who the other three were...

  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    Aug. 15, 2013 8:49 p.m.

    Oooops, my bad. Not 21 schools ahead of BYU, BYU is the 21st...

    Only two schools to figure out

  • Zoniezoobie Mesa, AZ
    Aug. 15, 2013 10:06 p.m.

    BYU is always among schools with the highest yield, meaning a higher number of students who are accepted, actually enroll in classes. Or better said, BYU is nobody's backup plan!

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 15, 2013 10:13 p.m.

    Yep, BYU isn't good enough academically for the PAC12 when prestige is manipulated by the schools (lol, I can't imagine schools doing this, as if). But if we ask high achieving students we get a whole different perspective. Academics seems to be the only revenue earning business where clout and prestige are established by the businesses themselves rather than the consumers that partake of what is offered, LOL. A good ole boy club if ever there was one.

    Reality check: BYU is a top tier academic university and obviously the PAC 12 had other reasons for not inviting them. Lets see, BYU has more fans in the SLC market than Utah, and in the national market than Utah. BYU has larger and better facilities than Utah had when they were invited. BYU has a NC, and far more tradition athletically than Utah especially considering all sports. Hmm...I'm running out if reasons, ute fans...except one of course, which U all think had nothing to do with it. Like I said...reality check.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 15, 2013 10:22 p.m.

    "The study's authors aimed to demonstrate a new method of ranking schools that could not be so easily manipulated by the schools themselves. Other common metrics often used to tout a school's popularity — such as the number of applications submitted or the percentage of students who commit to attend the school after they are accepted — are too easily influenced by the schools themselves..."

    This is exactly why the results of ranking academic institutions should be taken with a grain of salt (i.e., US News and World Report). Add to that the near incomprehensible criteria being measured and the nonexistence of third party audits of data submitted we are left with highly suspect and unreliable results.

    This study is interesting but religious affiliation should also be captured in the sample. If not, any result that put byu in the top 25 is highly suspect. The last number I saw for non-lds students at byu was 2%. Obviously, if the number of lds kids in the sample was high, the result will favor byu making the reported result less attractive. I wonder how they defined "high performing?"

    Ask the tough questions, people.

  • SLCWatch Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 15, 2013 10:23 p.m.

    Oh the comedy that could be written and the jokes this could bring.

    Ah, but the spirit of compassion restraineth my soul.

  • Orem Parent Orem, UT
    Aug. 15, 2013 10:49 p.m.

    BYU the only university in Utah that made the list.

  • thebigsamoan Richmond, VA
    Aug. 15, 2013 10:51 p.m.

    Ummm, something smells fishy when the school that conducted the survey ranked itself number one.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 15, 2013 11:09 p.m.

    Bigsamoan:
    "Ummm, something smells fishy when the school that conducted the survey ranked itself number one".

    If it were anyone besides Harvard I would agree with you. However, Harvard is known for it's career center and getting grads into great jobs, to say nothing of the real world experiences, fellowships, and internships offered thru Harvard. The fact they're number one is not real surprising.

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    Aug. 15, 2013 11:29 p.m.

    "BYU among top 25 choices for high-performing high schoolers"

    No surprise there.

  • strangethingintheland Morristown, NJ
    Aug. 16, 2013 2:23 a.m.

    No link or other information about how to find the actual study, or am I missing something?

  • Max Charlotte, NC
    Aug. 16, 2013 3:48 a.m.

    It is amazing that some people think "university" and "football" are synonymous. This wasn't a sports story folks.

  • byu rugby Crystal Lake, IL
    Aug. 16, 2013 4:12 a.m.

    I only attended BYU for the scholarship money. Except for the Horticulture and Recreation & Youth Leadership Departments and the Rugby Program, I have no real love for the place. I think most Utahns as a general rule think too highly of themselves. It doesn't really matter which university they attend. If you are Mormon it is a mistake to attend any institution in Utah unless they have the best program for your field of study. Ricks College used to be a great place to get your academic legs under you. But, now it just "Provo Lite". Stay where you are, attend a local university, and attend Institute.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Aug. 16, 2013 4:56 a.m.

    "BYU's strong academic programs and campus culture make it a popular choice among certain groups of high schoolers"

    Yes, and that "certain groups of high schoolers" are called LDS.

    Get real. BYU is a good school, but it ranked high strictly because of religious affiliation.

  • One Angry Salebarn Worker Madison, SD
    Aug. 16, 2013 5:32 a.m.

    I don't think it comes as news that BYU and UU serve very different student populations. BYU the more high end student and UU more of a community college type student. But, their faculty output is rather similar in terms of scholarly productivity. It's just that UU faculty put more focus on grants and contracts and vita development, and BYU faculty put more emphasis on student development.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    Aug. 16, 2013 5:54 a.m.

    RE: Cougsndawgs

    "Reality check: BYU is a top tier academic university and obviously the PAC 12 had other reasons for not inviting them"

    No it isn't. The kind of "top tier" that the PAC12 cares about are the research dollars going into the school. BYU is classified as a "high" research activity school but all PAC12 schools are "very high research". While BYU is more selective and their undergraduates have a better experience (statistically speaking) than most PAC12 schools, the reason they aren't included is because they don't have the graduate programs and aren't publishing and making money at the same rate as those schools.

    The argument can still be made that there was a religious bias preventing the invite, as the PAC12 was more than willing to accept Oklahoma State and Kansas State (high research schools). I for one am grateful the invite never came. Independence is a step up from MWC and there's always a chance the Big 12 calls.

  • SSmith Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 6:36 a.m.

    The one thing all BYU and U of U students have in common: they all applied to BYU.

  • bradleyc Layton, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 6:39 a.m.

    Love the pac 12... Like independence more.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 7:05 a.m.

    A link to the study would be appreciated.

    @ bigsamoan, I doubt anyone would argue with Harvard.

    As for BYU, it is udnerstandable it is ranked. It is the flagship schoold for the LDS community of millions, and it can only accomodate so many student coming from that population. It can be selective from that community, and the numbers favor it for this ranking. It speaks well for BYU in the overall scheme of things.

    And please, don't pound on the U., the PAC 12, or any other school. This ranking is irrlevant to all of that. Other institutions do great things, often better than BYU, because that's what they choose to do. None of this is a reason to crow or denigrate.

  • downtown424 CHICAGO, IL
    Aug. 16, 2013 7:22 a.m.

    Why isn't there a link to the actual study, or the full list, in the article?

  • sj Spanish Fork, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 7:33 a.m.

    First of all, I am a BYU Fan but I am appalled the comments some of you are making. I am ashamed at the stupid comments towards the UofU. Why don't you just let the U be who they are a like BYU for who they are? Seems like some of you BYU fans just can't wait to get a jab in at the U every time you get a chance but when the U does it to you, you get all offended. BYU students are very competitive. Its a great school. These (mostly) LDS kids have worked very hard through High School to get into such a place. Some people just don't want to scrap for every 1/2 point. Not their personality. But really... you have to argue about everything? Grow up BYU and Utah fans... not everything is a competition.

  • RDLV Costa Rica, 00
    Aug. 16, 2013 7:38 a.m.

    For the link to the published research in the Quarterly Journal of Economics, you can refer to the BYU news release.

  • hymn to the silent Holladay, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 8:07 a.m.

    This is really no surprise to anybody in academia, or those of us who regularly hire college grads. High performing students function well in highly structured environments. What makes the BYU experience so polarizing is that environment. Those students who are bugged by all the rules and lack of open thinking should have gone somewhere else; likewise the kids who go to more open environments like Berkley or the UofU and complain about the lack of structure should go somewhere else as well. What's tiresome is the self-righteousness of some BYU fans believing they are the Harvard of the west. Anybody who has actually been to Harvard finds this laughable. BYU's strength is its dedication to a very structured undergrad experience. They do that very well. By the way, this article had nothing to do with football; however an in-depth tour of pac 12 schools and you would see why BYU was not invited.

  • Ray E. LITTLETON, CO
    Aug. 16, 2013 8:08 a.m.

    ""BYU's strong academic programs and campus culture make it a popular choice among certain groups of high schoolers"

    Yes, and that "certain groups of high schoolers" are called LDS.

    Get real. BYU is a good school, but it ranked high strictly because of religious affiliation.""

    @JoeBlow,

    Why would researchers at Harvard purposely target high schools with large LDS populations? Serious students in all walks of life know of BYU's reputation for excellence. The only thing preventing many from attending is the Honor Code.

  • Truth Machine Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 8:09 a.m.

    "After surveying more than 3,000 high-achieving high schoolers, the authors ranked Harvard, Caltech, Yale and MIT as the nation's four most popular schools [for high-performing high schoolers]. BYU ranked just after Duke and the University of Virginia, and was the only Utah school to make the top 110 schools listed by the study."

    With BYU's high academic standards, well-rounded culture, and excellent athletic programs, it's no surprise that BYU is listed near the top of this study.

  • Common-Tator Saint Paul, MN
    Aug. 16, 2013 8:18 a.m.

    2nd comment ... I must agree with downntown424, Esquire, and strangethingintheland -- where is the study?! I did a cursory Google search, as well as searching on Harvard's website, but haven't yet found anything. Author Emma Penrod, please do tell!

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 8:22 a.m.

    An article about nerds and some of you turn it into vs Utah and the Pac12. Insecure?

  • Jared Average, SE
    Aug. 16, 2013 8:23 a.m.

    Here're the top 25 rankings from the article. BYU is the only Utah school in the full table (110 schools).

    1Harvard University
    2Caltech
    3Yale University
    4MIT
    5Stanford University
    6Princeton University
    7Brown University
    8Columbia University
    9Amherst College
    10Dartmouth
    11Wellesley College
    12University of Pennsylvania
    13University of Notre Dame
    14Swarthmore College
    15Cornell University
    16Georgetown University
    17Rice University
    18Williams College
    19Duke University
    20University of Virginia
    21Brigham Young University
    22Wesleyan University
    23Northwestern University
    24Pomona College
    25Georgia Institute of Technology

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 8:27 a.m.

    Wiscougarfan:
    I know Utah is a tier 1 research school and BYU is not. You've seen me post this multiple times. My insinuations came from the fact that the PAC 12 was more than happy to look the other way on non tier 1 schools, as you pointed out, and are obviously oblivious to the other academic qualities a university possesses (which is no surprise, again, considering these schools create their own prestige and hype). Everyone knows Utah is t1 and BYU is not in terms of research. I'm simply pointing to how snooty and biased the PAC12s vision is toward schools that obviously have merit but don't fit their liberal view of research and academics.

    I've also said before: I don't think BYU is a good fit for the PAC12 so this isn't sour grapes or wanting BYU to be a member. Like U and many others, I feel the Big 12 is a better fit. I've also said Utah deserved their invite based on what the conference wanted, so congrats to them.

  • Shimlau SAINT GEORGE, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 8:33 a.m.

    SSmith; nice joke, however, I never applied to BYU. I did go to the UofU.

  • Neuron Average, SE
    Aug. 16, 2013 8:39 a.m.

    Having been at multiple major universities (including BYU and Duke) for my education, training, and work, in my experience BYU students are among the most impressive I've been around. I'd put them solidly up there with Duke (which coincidentally ranks just a couple spots above BYU in this article). The average caliber of BYU students might not be quite up to Harvard, Yale, MIT, or Stanford standards but it's close. There's a reason why BYU is one of the top schools for producing students who go on to earn PhDs.

    Further, BYU is considered a top tier university by all within academia I've been around. I know many universities, programs (medical, dental), and individuals who go out of their way to recruit students who went to BYU (even going as far as putting them on a special fast track for admission). People who doubt the respect that BYU and BYU students have should spend time with graduate/professional admissions committees at institutions around the country.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 8:45 a.m.

    Cougsndawgs,

    Pacific *Athletic* Conference.

  • Anon0101 Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 9:10 a.m.

    Should rename the study to say, the 25 most popular schools in the country. Highly doubt these kids know anything about BYU other than it is religious and they have good sports.

  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 9:31 a.m.

    to thebigsamoan

    Good catch.

    to Cougsndawgs

    Please. Harvard and the rest of the Ivy League (Cornell may be the exception. It sure isn't Brown) are there to tweak the status quo so only the 1% benefit.

    I'm no fan of the NorCal Bay area schools but they are hot beds of innovation. Same for MIT!

    As for byu being popular; my theory? If you want to be a attorney or accountant then why not go where the conformity degrees are emphasized.

  • Pendergast Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 9:33 a.m.

    re: hymn to the silent

    Byu isn't even the Northwestern of Utah County.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 9:36 a.m.

    @ JoeBlow:

    No need to get real, since the study itself is already real and already acclaimed for it's legitimacy. If you could read without bias, you'd understand that religious affiliation is only ONE of many factors in the study for all schools... including BYU. To contend otherwise is stating something not found in the study itself and exposes a personal bias.

  • The Rock Federal Way, WA
    Aug. 16, 2013 9:38 a.m.

    Interesting. For years Harvard University has sent representatives to high schools just to encourage students to apply knowing full well that the vast majority could not qualify. The biggest data manipulator seeks to eliminate data manipulation. Now that is news.

    The most selective universities are determined by the percentage of students who apply that actually get admitted. That is a bit more difficult to prevent data manipulation.

    If you want to get into Harvard you need a 4.0, must be student body president and drum major in the band. Harvard Universities make the university, it is not the other way around.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    Aug. 16, 2013 9:41 a.m.

    @ Cougsndawgs
    My bad, I misread your original post. I agree with you 100% that we're better off not being in the PAC12, partly because of the academic, religious, and political snobbery that takes place among the movers and shakers in the conference. The Big 12 would be a much better fit... but until then independence is working out much better than I expected (I admit I hated the idea when it was first announced).

    @ Neuron
    I've also lived, studied, and taught at several universities outside of Utah and my experience has been similar to yours. BYU enjoys a well-deserved reputation for producing outstanding students and employees.

    @ BYU Rugby
    I don't understand why you'd discourage out-of-staters from going to the Y, I believe the BYU experience is unlike what you'll find anywhere else and I hope my kids choose to go there. As a current institute teacher (and a former institute teacher at another Big 10 school) I know that we can't replicate what BYU has... or what is offered at the UofU, UVU, and USU institutes. In "in-the-bubble" experience can be really great for out-of-state kids.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 9:48 a.m.

    @ JohnInSLC:

    Yes, many of us already read the article you mentioned. But most of us are also informed enough to know that a very small student athlete issue regarding an online course restricted by NCAA athletic department rules doesn't have anything to do with this broader based high achievers study. Only a ute troll with a personal bias would think otherwise. And out of 36 posts so far, only 1 has. As such, the only LOL is on you.

  • Eliot Genola, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 9:56 a.m.

    A link to the study can be found on BYU's home page. There are a couple of points about the article that should be made. First, the authors of the study came from multiple institutions including Harvard, Stanford and Boston University. Second, BYU should not be referred to as a Utah school. It is a school that is located in Utah but, unlike the state universities, most of its students are not from Utah. BYU has a very unique mission that is attractive to a very selective group of students who tend to be high-achieving. Students may choose to go to BYU for reasons other than academics.

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 9:56 a.m.

    Note to BYU alumni, this has nothing to do with athletics (i.e. the Pac 12). How sad to see some of you show your true colors of jealousy and put down other univeristies when you should be taking a moment to celebrate your own successes. Take joy in what BYU does well and be happy about that without belittling others. You're setting a poor example for others.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    Aug. 16, 2013 10:04 a.m.

    ekute

    "Pacific *Athletic* Conference"

    The National Association of Directors of College Athletics (NADCA) Directors' Cup honors institutions maintaining a broad-based athletic program, achieving success in many sports, both men’s and women’s.

    In the 20-year history of the Directors' Cup Utah has NEVER finished ahead of BYU in the standings. In fact, BYU's average finish for the last 20 years is higher than Utah has ever finished.

    Final Directors' Cup Standings for 2013

    #43 BYU 505.00 points
    #77 Utah 261.25 points

    BYU received points in 10 sports: M Cross-Country, Football, W Soccer, W Volleyball, W Gymnastics, M Golf, Softball, M Tennis, M Track & Field, and M Volleyball

    Utah only received points in 4 sports: W Gymnastics, Skiing, M Swimming, and W Track & Field

    As far as quality of athletics goes, BYU has dominated Utah in overall athletic excellence for decades.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    Aug. 16, 2013 10:08 a.m.

    Anon0101

    "Highly doubt these kids know anything about BYU other than it is religious and they have good sports."

    Highly doubtful you have any evidence whatsoever to support your fallacious claim.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Aug. 16, 2013 10:13 a.m.

    MY point was that I would bet that a HUGE percentage of LDS kids in the study chose BYU.

    Conversely, I doubt that the majority of Catholic students would choose Notre Dame.

    That would skew the results.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    Aug. 16, 2013 10:17 a.m.

    RE: Mormon Ute

    In discussion boards, people discuss things. Sometimes those topics deviate from the intended purpose of the article. Sometimes, when articles are posted in the sports section of the paper/website, fans will choose to talk about athletics.

  • Kralon HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA
    Aug. 16, 2013 10:26 a.m.

    downtown424 - "Why isn't there a link to the actual study, or the full list, in the article?"

    The actual study is in the Quarterly Journal of Economics and requires a subscription. Without paying all you get is an abstract. The best summary I've found shows the top 30 and is on BYU's news site. Unfortunately DN won't let me put a link in a comment, so look for BYU News and the title is "An Academic Ranking of Colleges".

  • GK Willington Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 10:51 a.m.

    per JohnInSLC

    It sounds like something OU, Texas, or Ohio State would do... so yeah.... that is top tier.

  • Pendergast Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 10:52 a.m.

    to skywalker

    Couldn't athletics be considered the *vain things of this world*?

    I love irony.

  • Truth Machine Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 11:02 a.m.

    Mormon Ute

    "Note to BYU alumni, this has nothing to do with athletics..."

    Actually, it has a lot to do with athletics, as Utah fans are constantly beating their chests about Utah's invitation to the PAC, even though the main criteria cited for BYU NOT being invited to the PAC was "supposedly" academics.

    Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

  • Woody Newbury Park, CA
    Aug. 16, 2013 11:05 a.m.

    I think BYU should be on the list around that level. Problem is the article is a little vague on the stats. It says 3,000 top students were surveyed. When you scatter the numbers top to bottom, it may only take 1% or 30 students to make #21. The top 10 probably got 75% of the students. It would be hard to expect BYU to even be listed as a choice for the students that want college to be a party. These may be the nerds, but they are still teenagers.

  • Ted H. Midvale, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 11:07 a.m.

    JoeBlow:

    "MY point was that I would bet that a HUGE percentage of LDS kids in the study chose BYU. Conversely, I doubt that the majority of Catholic students would choose Notre Dame. That would skew the results"

    No it wouldn't. The study is about smart kids and which college they choose to attend. Why would the fact that many Mormons often choose BYU skew those results? Smart kids. Which college they attend. How does religion skew that relationship? I find it laughable you think the fact that Mormons often attend byu has "skewed" the results. I'm glad that this bothers you though. I'm glad that this further evidence that BYU students are significantly smarter than other Utah students bothers you. Thanks for bringing me this joy.

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Aug. 16, 2013 11:14 a.m.

    JoeBlow

    "MY point was that I would bet that a HUGE percentage of LDS kids in the study chose BYU.

    Conversely, I doubt that the majority of Catholic students would choose Notre Dame."

    Catholic kids have dozens of Catholic schools to choose from, but there are also 10 times more Cathlic kids than LDS kids, but none of your deflecting invalidates the results of the study.

    BYU has a national fan base and a national studentbody.
    Utah has a local fan base and a commuter studentbody.

    It's no surprise that in a national study of high performing high schoolers, BYU would be ranked in the Top 25 and Utah wouldn't even be ranked in the top 110.

  • Riddles in the Dark Olympus Cove, Utah
    Aug. 16, 2013 11:21 a.m.

    Pendergast

    "Couldn't athletics be considered the *vain things of this world*?"

    You can be the ironic judge of that if you like; just remember, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

  • vangroovin West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 11:40 a.m.

    Congratulations to BYU! Go Cougs!

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 11:40 a.m.

    Truth machine,

    I didn't ask for it both ways. I have no idea why BYU didn't get invited to the Pac 12, but I do know this .... the Pac 12 is an athletic conference.

  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    Aug. 16, 2013 11:56 a.m.

    Esquire
    Springville, UT

    Not crowing or denigrating. Defending. BYU doesn't get a lot of respect from a select group, occasionally deservedly so. Maybe I should have thicker skin, but the steady drumbeat about a certain university suddenly being superior because it belongs to a conference that is superior is getting just a little monotonous.

    For what it is worth, I live in Washington State University country, and the good that university does for eastern Washington is immeasurable. May not have the greatest football team, and they probably didn't make this top 25 list, but a marvelous place.

    And I DO think this is the year they'll take the Utes.

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    Aug. 16, 2013 12:03 p.m.

    BYU is an interesting enigma for sure. You get kids who have good enough grades/test scores to go to Harvard, but they choose to go to BYU because they would never meet enough LDS members of the opposite sex at Harvard to be able to get married.

    The "nationally diverse" student body isn't there because BYU is a destination university, it's because a bright LDS girl from New Hampshire doesn't like only having 6 LDS guys to choose from at Dartmouth.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 12:09 p.m.

    MormonUte:
    If it's an athletic conference than why are academics and research criteria to get in? It's not just an athletic conference...if that's the case than BYU had far better athletic credentials than Utah. It's as much about academics as athletics. To believe otherwise is to avoid/dispute the evidence right in front of us.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 12:44 p.m.

    @Cougsndawgs:

    "BYU had far better athletic credentials than Utah"

    Utah has a far better football program than byu.

    All sports don't drive the conference shuffle.

    Football does.

    In the last 10 years Utah has multiple undefeated seasons, multiple top 5 finishes, multiple BCS bowls, multiple BCS wins.

    Does byu have any of those?

    No.

    Utah is clearly the premier football program in the state, and thus was extended an invite to the Pac 12.

    If byu had multiple undefeated top 5 seasons in the last 5 years, I bet a BCS conference would have come calling.

    But you don't.

    So they didn't.

  • Silent Lurker Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 12:48 p.m.

    I guess they havn"t heard about BYU independent study program.That gets non qualifier students into BYU.

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    Aug. 16, 2013 1:32 p.m.

    christy

    "Utah has a far better football program than BYU"

    The facts prove otherwise:

    National Championships
    BYU 1
    Utah 0

    Heisman Trophies
    BYU 1
    Utah 0

    AP Top 25 Finishes
    BYU 17
    Utah 5

    National Individual Awards
    BYU 15
    Utah 0

    National Hall of Fame Players
    BYU 6
    Utah 0

    By every meaningful measure on a national scale, BYU dwarfs Utah and it's twin flash-in-the-pan seasons.

    And that's just football.

    Comparing overall athletic programs:

    BYU has beaten Utah 20 out of 20 years in the NADCA Directors' Cup standings, which measures overall athletic success across all men's and women's sports.

    MWC Championships
    BYU 140
    Utah 49

  • Eddie Would Go FPO, AE
    Aug. 16, 2013 1:38 p.m.

    BYU clearly is doing many things right to be on this list. Congratulations to my Alma Mater!

    But I can't help but think that BYU would drop precipitously on this list if its tuition was in line with the other schools...

  • anti BCS Anaheim, CA
    Aug. 16, 2013 1:42 p.m.

    chrissy

    "All sports don't drive the conference shuffle. Football does."

    During the Bronco/Kyle era

    Top 25 Finishes
    BYU 5
    Utah 4

    AP Top 25 Finishes
    BYU 4
    Utah 2

    Top 15 Finishes
    BYU 3
    Utah 1

    Conference Championships
    BYU 2
    Utah 1

    10+ Win Seasons
    BYU 5
    Utah 3

    Bowls
    Bronco 8
    Kyle 7

    But, there are a few categories Kyle excels in:

    Losing Seasons
    Bronco 0
    Kyle 1 (and counting)

    Losses to 10-loss teams
    Bronco 0
    Kyle 2

    Losses to bottom-dwelling conference opponents - Wyoming, CSU, UNM, UNLV, and Colorado
    Bronco UNDEFEATED
    Kyle Yes (some more than once)

  • Solomon the Wise Alpine, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 2:05 p.m.

    silent stalker

    "I guess they havn"t heard about BYU independent study program."

    Why would "high-performing high schoolers" need to worry about being non-qualifiers?

    btw,

    The average ACT score for freshman admitted to BYU for fall 2013 was 28.5.

    ACT scores of students enrolled in 2013, 25th/75th percentile

    Composite
    BYU 26/31
    Utah 21/27

    Math
    BYU 26/31
    Utah 20/27

    English
    BYU 26/33
    Utah 21/28

    It's not even disputable that the average undergraduate BYU student is much more accomplished academically than their Utah counterparts.

  • Go Utes Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 2:07 p.m.

    @ SSmith

    You said "The one thing all BYU and U of U students have in common: they all applied to BYU."

    I fit right into your statistic, but not in the way your arrogant mind thinks. I applied to BYU, got accepted, and went to the U. My wife (who I met while at the U and married in the temple) did the same. Get off your high horse.

    Turning down BYU to go to the U was one of the best decisions I have ever made. I don't see how any LDS kid who really loves living gospel standards would want to go to BYU. There are so many better options. I wonder how this study would change if there weren't hundreds of misguided ecclesiastical leaders and parents perpetuating the myth that BYU is a better place for their high schoolers to go.

  • Go Utes Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 2:32 p.m.

    @ Rockwell

    You said: "BYU has a national fan base and a national studentbody. Utah has a local fan base and a commuter studentbody."

    This "national fan base" or "Cougar nation" myth is always amusing. How many people nationally who are not BYU alumni or Mormon follow BYU? Having Mormon kids come from around the country to school and then go back home does not make a national fan base. Ohio State, Florida, Notre Dame, etc. have a large following of folks who never went there and have no affiliation with the place other than they like cheering for them. THAT is a national fan base. The fact that you have fans in states other than Utah does not constitute a national fan base.

    I wonder how many of these kids would go to BYU if they did not have parents and/or ecclesiastical leaders pushing it from the time they were children. This is a chicken and egg thing. Just because these kids end up at BYU does not mean it is a better school. It is a fine school, yet, but please, stop with the arrogance.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    Aug. 16, 2013 2:40 p.m.

    RE: Crispy

    "Utah has a far better football program than byu. All sports don't drive the conference shuffle. Football does."

    You make an interesting argument. There's no question that BYU's athletic program is currently (and has been for a very long time) vastly superior to Utah's, and it is debatable which school currently has the better football program (although I suspect that if you did a national poll BYU would win hands-down).

    So the question is... Is football so important that it trumps everything else combined? I'd love to hear your honest opinion on that. Cheers.

  • Go Utes Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 3:00 p.m.

    @ Just the FAX and anti BCS,

    Funny, with how vastly superior BYU football obviously is (I am cowering under the force of your logic and amazing fact lists), you'd think BYU could beat Utah on a regular basis. It must stink regularly losing to that horrible, bottom-dwelling program up north.

  • Max Charlotte, NC
    Aug. 16, 2013 3:09 p.m.

    I'm a BYU grad and have lived all over the country. There is no doubt that BYU enjoys a solid academic reputation. However, I do tire of the smugness and self-righteousness of some (not most) of my fellow grads. The fact is that these studies are quite meaningless. All this is really saying is that LDS students have a strong preference for BYU and the strength of that preference rivals the strength of preference non-LDS students have for other schools. What a surprise!

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 16, 2013 3:36 p.m.

    Go Utes

    BYU having a national fan base and a national studentbody, and Utah having a local fan base and a commuter studentbody is absolutely TRUE!

    66% of BYU's students are from out of state and BYU has 10s of thousands of alumni living throughout the United States.

    83% of Utah's students are from Utah, only 10% live on campus, the majority of Utah students remain in the state after attending Utah, and Utah Alumni chapters outside of Utah are puny by comparison to BYU's.

  • STuFOO Korea, AE
    Aug. 16, 2013 3:48 p.m.

    Chris B

    "Utah has a far better football program than BYU."

    Two things...

    1. Who was rated higher in the last year poll? AND the year before?(one games does not a season make.)

    2. You won't even have scoreboard after this year, and you'll have a losing season. Again.

    You can pipe out all you want about utah being a better program...

    Simply isn't true.

    utah is in decline, and the only people who can't see it are the "PAC 12 chest beaters" and the "we beat you" crowds.

    The rest of the nation has already forgotten about u.

  • STuFOO Korea, AE
    Aug. 16, 2013 7:21 p.m.

    Go Utes

    "This "national fan base" or "Cougar nation" myth is always amusing. How many people nationally who are not BYU alumni or Mormon follow BYU?"

    says the guy living in SLC and went to the u.

    "Having Mormon kids come from around the country to school and then go back home does not make a national fan base."

    What?! Why not, they are national, and they are a fan base. Look at any road game Bball or football and you will see the fan base.

    I travel ALL over the world and every where I go I meet people who are fans of BYU, many who are not LDS.

    "I wonder how this study would change if there weren't hundreds of misguided ecclesiastical leaders and parents perpetuating the myth that BYU is a better place for their high schoolers to go."

    Love this line. Sounds like someone bitter.

    "but please, stop with the arrogance."

    I will when you will. Your whole comment was filled with arrogance.

    I WANT my kids to go to BYU, my bishop wants them to go to Nebraska.

  • STuFOO Korea, AE
    Aug. 16, 2013 7:25 p.m.

    Go utes,

    "you'd think BYU could beat Utah on a regular basis. It must stink regularly losing to that horrible, bottom-dwelling program up north."

    Naw, its just one game.

    this year u'll be licking those wounds for two years mumbling....

    "but we won two BCS bowls..."

  • Kings Court Alpine, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 9:13 p.m.

    BYU is a private school and private schools are always better than public schools. Sorry U of U, but you are just a lowly public school.

  • 54-10 Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 16, 2013 10:42 p.m.

    Got my diploma from BYU. Both of them.

    And proud of it. Great academic institution.

  • cpafred SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Aug. 17, 2013 7:23 p.m.

    Max is correct when he says above that "these studies are quite meaningless. All this is really saying is that LDS students have a strong preference for BYU and the strength of that preference rivals the strength of preference non-LDS students have for other schools."

    BYU's freshmen ACT scores GPA's and admit rates are worse than several UC schools' freshmen profiles:
    Ave ACT Ave GPA Admit Rate
    UC Berkeley 30 4.16 21.5%
    UCLA 30 4.11 22.1%
    UC San Diego 29 4.07 37.7%
    UC Davis 28 4.03 44.6%
    UC Santa Bar 28 3.96 45.3%
    BYU 28 3.81 55%
    UC Irvine 27 4.02 42.4%

    Do you people seriously think a resume of a BYU grad equates with a UC Berkeley grad's resume (particularly in the all-important STEM areas)?

  • runnerguy50 Virginia Beach, Va
    Aug. 18, 2013 3:37 p.m.

    Utah Rugby, I'd like to hear more on why you feel like you do. Thanks.

  • Shabba san mateo, CA
    Aug. 18, 2013 4:09 p.m.

    Byu obviously does compare well to the UC schools. Are you telling me that because their ACT scores are as high as half the schools you list, and only slightly lower than the top four. You also can't compare GPAs very well because in CA the grade point scale goes ABOVE 4.

    It's typical Bay Area snobbery by the Berkeley folks. I've lived here all my life and seen it and dealt with it first hand. It has much more to do with a hatred for religion than anything else. And when I say hatred I really mean it, no exaggeration.

    I went to BYU for undergrad (I was accepted at several PAC schools and turned them all down), and did a master's in engineering at Columbia. My degree at Columbia wasn't any more rigorous than what I went through at BYU.

    Good job Utes on getting into the PAC 12. The facts speak for themslves though. BYU is a great school with a great athletic program.

  • Steven S Jarvis Orem, UT
    Aug. 18, 2013 4:17 p.m.

    @Go Utes

    "I don't see how any LDS kid who really loves living gospel standards would want to go to BYU."

    This is by far one of the most unusual things I have heard. From that one statement it sounds like you are a Ute fan by default of Utah not being BYU. I doubt I can convey to you why BYU is so special, and attracts high performing students, not just the LDS ones.

    I chose BYU BECAUSE I love living the gospel standards. There really is no other school that offers a full BYU experience with academics, people smiling at you all the time, athletics, seeing General Authorities walking on campus and many other things that are meaningful to kids who love living the gospel standards.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 20, 2013 2:09 p.m.

    @Cougsndawgs
    Actually BYU isn't good enough academically... in the sense that it doesn't have a tier 1 research institution status like the 12 PAC-12 schools do.

    I'm not surprised BYU is high on this list. After all, there's that joke "Harvard is my fallback". If it weren't fulfilling the niche role of being the primary LDS school in the nation/world it would be much lower on the list. I don't say that as a good or bad thing since I don't think it's either, it's just the context of the situation.