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Brad Rock: Could Utah football be the new Arizona?

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  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 6:02 p.m.

    No.

    Whittingham knows how to have undefeated top 5 seasons

    So does Erickson

    We will be in a rose bowl within 5-10 years max

    Our FIRST year in the league we were one field goal away from the PAC 12 tilt game with rose bowl on the line.

    Only 5 years ago we were a top 5 team

    Recruiting has improved the past several years

    Which is why we are handling byu easily but still struggling against PAC 12 teams who also have great recruiting

    I am not worried in the least.

    I think this year we will be in the title hunt within the last game or two of the season

    Mark that down! I will remind you all I was r

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 6:08 p.m.

    To all who mock Utah: you only wish the PAC 12 or another bcs league wanted you,

    But they don't!

  • Cris B. Sandy, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 7:08 p.m.

    Thomas Jefferson,

    How does it feel knowing the Maryland of the PAC 12 seniors are about to complete the career 4-0 sweep over your team?

    Van noy and Hoffman are supposed to be stars, and yet they will be 0-4 against "Maryland"

    Never beat them!

    Lol!

    As "bad" as we are, you lost 54-10 to that bad team!

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 7:15 p.m.

    And six years after joining the PAC 10 Arizona was nominated to and joined the prestigious academic group AAU which was really their goal when they left the WAC since they had no football history in the WAC to speak of. Utah will achieve both goals in the PAC 12, membership in AAU and a Rose Bowl game appearance in six years. Mark it down.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    Aug. 3, 2013 7:56 p.m.

    Two years in and Cougar fans say its a failure and look for comparisons. Hey its not working for AZ football.

    Well Brad start writing the next article: Could BYU football be the new Idaho? After all, they are both in the same conference of independents.

    ThomasJefferson, your comment about Maryland is interesting. Many schools would like to be them, especially after being invited to join the Big 10. I think several BYU fans would jump all over an invite like that.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Aug. 3, 2013 8:38 p.m.

    The race is on!

    What will occur first?

    Utah in a Rose Bowl, or our national debt being paid off?

  • Steven S Jarvis Orem, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 8:52 p.m.

    Utah will not be Arizona.

    Arizona was as awful football school when I lived in Tucson just over a decade ago. They only fielded a football team because that was expected. They had two or three years in a row not winning a single conference game. Utah will never be that bad.

    Utah should make it to a bowl every couple of years even at the worst of times because they play in the easier of the two divisions. They are typically better than Cal, Colorado, Washington State and can beat the middle of the pack teams as well depending on when the games land on the schedule. It will all really depend on what kind of teams they play out of conference. If they play teams like Utah State and BYU, Utah even if they win those games is not likely to come out of the game healthy enough to play in conference. That is what happened last year. Utah beat BYU and had practically nothing left in the tank for conference play. They lost a few games where had they not played BYU, would have won.

  • Big Brother BYU Orem, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 9:21 p.m.

    Hahaha, this is great. While we're playing for national championships, U will be, uh, not playing for the Rose Bowl. BYU is true.

  • rlsintx Plano, TX
    Aug. 3, 2013 9:54 p.m.

    Good luck to the U - their success is critical for the reputation of the other schools in UT and the Rockies in general.

  • talkinsports Gilbert, AZ
    Aug. 3, 2013 10:34 p.m.

    christy

    "Our FIRST year in the league we were one field goal away from the PAC 12 tilt game with rose bowl on the line."

    LOL at the spin. U had a gift-wrapped PAC south there for the taking and U were dominated at home in the first half by a 10-loss team that hadn't won a road game in four years.

  • talkinsports Gilbert, AZ
    Aug. 3, 2013 10:41 p.m.

    WACPaddled

    Two years "in", and you're not even capable of beating the only WAC team on your schedule to qualify for a bowl.

    Baby steps:

    Before beating your chest about "potential" Rose Bowl berths, or even winning the PAC south, U might want to start by beating your first PAC foe with a winning record.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 11:07 p.m.

    @big brother byu. Byu playing for national championships? What makes byu fans that delusional?

  • GoRed WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 11:29 p.m.

    Hmmm, slow sports day. Let's write an article questioning the Utes' ability to compete in the challenging PAC 12 in order to please the BYU-friendly Deseret News readers. Let's create controversy any way we can, right? Especially if it's at Utah's expense.

    Lame, Rock.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 3, 2013 11:53 p.m.

    Let's talk about the Sun Bowl, and the Sugar Bowl; shall we?

  • sammyg Springville, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 7:44 a.m.

    “Going to the Pac-12, we knew it was going to be a transition and a process, and a work in progress, I guess you could say,” Whittingham recently said."

    But that's not what Ute fans were saying 2 and 3 years ago!

    It's interesting to see and hear how the message has been morphing into excuses since last season. LOL

  • CougFaninTX Frisco, TX
    Aug. 4, 2013 8:04 a.m.

    Utah is my 3rd favorite school behind BYU and USU.

    However, I think this article is spot on. Hopefully a few of the commenters will quit looking at their team through Rose colored glasses.

    Utah has a tough schedule and will struggle to be bowl eligible. I think the biggest question is, will Erickson bring innovation, and progress to the offensive side of the ball like he did at Washington State and Oregon State. Or are his last few years at Arizona State a sign of things to come? Every coach in the PAC knows his system, so the offense will not surprise anyone.

    I'm glad so many Ute commenters define a successful season as a win against BYU, but the season is 12 games long, not one. Hopefully U can get it turned around a get back to your winning ways. And hopefully BYU can get back to beating Utah.

  • FelisConcolor North Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 8:20 a.m.

    "Could Utah football be the new Arizona?"

    Um, yeah, it will. It already is. And many of us correctly predicted this back in 2010.

    And I love the revisionist history here, trying to portray Arizona as a patsy in football. In reality, Arizona and Arizona State dominated the WAC in the mid-1970s, finishing 1-2 in the conference three times. Which is why they got invited to the big party in the first place.

    (Speaking of Arizona State, they have only been to two Rose Bowls during their history. That's two Rose Bowls out of 70 total years in the PAC-10 between the two schools.)

    Oh, and for the statement "Utah will never be that bad", Utah ALREADY has been that bad. During the '70s and '80s they usually finished in the bottom half of the conference -- right where they are now. The past decade of Utah football has been an anomaly compared to the previous 40 years; now that Utah doesn't have a steady diet of UNLVs and Wyomings to pad their schedule, they have returned to their accustomed position in the conference.

  • Silent Lurker Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 9:00 a.m.

    I guess it is time to remind the BYU faithful that the same year Utah lost to Colorado they also curb kicked BYU 54-10 at BYU. The Utes have owned BYU and still do, the green eyed jealousy of BYU fans is showing again in their attacks upon the Utes. Everyone knows that BYU was not wanted by the PAC for various reasons and they are still smarting from the snub. It now seems that no other conference wants anything to do with them also.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    Aug. 4, 2013 10:02 a.m.

    Anybody want to add to the flaming pyre of Ute sports by talking Utey basketball... at least Arizona can carry a conversation on the court.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    Aug. 4, 2013 10:02 a.m.

    talkinsports
    Gilbert, AZ
    WACPaddled

    Two years "in", and you're not even capable of beating the only WAC team on your schedule to qualify for a bowl.

    Baby steps:

    Before beating your chest about "potential" Rose Bowl berths, or even winning the PAC south, U might want to start by beating your first PAC foe with a winning record.

    ______

    talkinwithoutfacts, please show me where I said anything about a Rose Bowl berth.

    Baby steps:

    Beat ranked teams. Not just one every so often. BYU might want to start by giving a better impression on ESPN. Otherwise they will become more of a TV slot filler than they are now.

  • mercyfulf8 gilbert, AZ
    Aug. 4, 2013 10:35 a.m.

    I think recruiting the same level of talent as all other PAC12 programs is more than relative. Just because every program recruits the same kind of talent doesn't mean the coaches can get the most out of the players they recruit. Utah has shown they are able to maximize the skills of the players they are able to recruit. Just look at Texas and the top 5 classes they bring in every year, but they continually have disappointing seasons.

  • ImaCaMan Oceanside, CA
    Aug. 4, 2013 10:42 a.m.

    What kept Arizona out of the Rose Bowl several times was that they choked in their final game against ASU; their longtime old WAC rival. This had nothing to do with being in the PAC.

    Utah will be just fine and that will be recognized starting this season. Not having a stable QB situation for four years would derail any program. I don't see that happening again.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 10:43 a.m.

    I'm pretty sure the reason for this article was to stir the pot a little and ruffle some feathers and promote readers...you know, something a good columnist like Brad Rock knows how to do.

    In the end, his assessment is spot on...and even though I'm a Cougar fan, I really wish it wasn't the case that Utah is similar to AZ, Wazzu, and Colorado. I would actually like to see Utah rise to the top with the likes of USC, UCLA, Oregon, Stanford, etc. but despite Chris Bs Alice in Wonderland view of things, how likely is it that Utah becomes a premier program in the PAC? Utah will get very similar talent and recruits to what AZ gets. They will get very similar coaching talent, with similar revenue and facilities.

    A realistic ute fan knows all this, and understands the trade-off of being in a power conference...the wins, championships, and big bowl games will be much fewer and further between. Is that a fair trade off for great games against great opponents, and a 20 mil payday? Only ute fans can answer that question...Utah administrators already have when they decided to join.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 10:52 a.m.

    @gored

    Interesting how utah "fans" like yourself to not like reading critical analysis of their team and its prospects. Rock makes some really good comparisons here and asks some legitimate questions.

    But please tell us, and try to do so rationally if possible, why utah will be any more than arizona has been? What advantages does utah have over arizona that should make us believe they will more successful than arizona has been?

  • clehman Sandy, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 11:14 a.m.

    Congratulations, Brad. You served up an article tailor made for the BYU trolls.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 11:24 a.m.

    @clehman

    If you mean an article asking legitimate questions then sure. What a strange mindset utah "fans" have, never wanting to study the issues, never wanting to face reality, never wanting to think about the truth. You know it isn't all wine and roses, especially not the roses part. I wonder if utah "fans" can handle what's to come emotionally if an article that ask's legitimate questions is more than they can handle.

  • Wally West SLC, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 11:46 a.m.

    re: GoRed

    Agreed. Though, the Utes have never been thought of highly by the SLC sports media (notice I did not say journalists) which is full of byu homers & jazz apologists.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 11:51 a.m.

    @wally west

    I like how a single article asking legitimate questions sends utah "fans" into victim mode. LOL!

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 12:00 p.m.

    Could Utah football be the new Arizona?

    Arizona was 5-7 and 6-5-1 with Fiesta Bowl (11-12-1 45%) in their first 2 seasons in PAC-10 and Utah 8-5 and 5-7 (13-12 52%) with Sun Bowl.

    According to Scots Utah’s average class rank is #7 in the PAC-12, Arizona is #9. Overall class rankings Utah was 39, 33, 54 and Arizona 70, 46, 27. And this with only 3 seasons of BCS level recruiting compared to 35 years for Arizona.

    Arizona has 20 players in the NFL? So what? Oregon has 39 players and Utah has 31 players mostly MWC talent.

    Conclusion, sample size is too small in order to determine any correlation between Utah to Arizona.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 12:01 p.m.

    CougFaninTX "will Erickson bring innovation"
    The bigger question is "will Whittingham bring innovation"? The knock on Whitt is he is a local coach who doesn't know a lot of coaches outside of Utah. For Utah to compete in the long run they may have to replace Whittingham, which is a shame because few programs show dedication to coaches anymore.

    "I'm glad so many Ute commenters define a successful season as a win against BYU".
    I've never seen a Ute fan make that comment. I don't consider the BYU game an indication of success. It is fun to watch, but nonconference has little bearing on Utah's season. As Utah improves in recruiting, Utah should beat BYU more often than not.

    For BYU, the Utah game is a gauge for "are we getting better?" They go to the same bowl game if they're 6-6 or 11-1. Rankings mean nothing if you're not in the top 10 at the end of the regular season. BYU plays different teams every year, so you're left with the Utah game, and BYU hasn't beaten them since going independent. That worries Cougar fans, because it shows they aren't getting better.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 12:08 p.m.

    talkinsports

    christy

    "Our FIRST year in the league we were one field goal away from the PAC 12 tilt game with rose bowl on the line."

    LOL at the spin.

    ------------------

    Speaking SPIN, why didn't you call this out:

    "The Cougars are coming off a great defensive year and a disappointing offensive year. It is hard to believe with all of the disappointment that the team was four plays away from a 12-1 season." -- Deseret News

    Actually, BYU while trailing the entire game was one missed field goal AND an overtime away from going 11-2.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 12:16 p.m.

    What does ESPN think about the current Utah program? Could Utah football be the new Arizona? According to ESPN and not some BYU homer:

    If this were a five-year projection, I think the Utes would be higher. But I also think they need to go through at least a full class cycle before they can really start climbing the Pac-12 hierarchy.

    Our preseason hype last season was misguided, and the Utes' lack of depth was exposed. It takes time to build not only a starting lineup that can win in the Pac-12, but also the depth behind those starters. The facility upgrades are a good step in the right direction.

  • Pendergast Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 12:22 p.m.

    to ThomasJefferson

    If you are a Husker fan why do you care? Taylor Martinez < Scott Frost.

    A more apt comparison would be U to UNC (not UAz) as BYU is to Duke. Hint... close proximity, snobby private school, etc...

  • GK Willington Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 12:29 p.m.

    to CougFaninTX

    What Erickson will bring is simplification. The Utes w/ substandard QB play were trying to run the WCO, spread option, & pro style.

    The Utes O will have the Joe Gibbs Redskins personnel with the capability for the zone read option i.e. Seahawks

  • motorbike Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 12:30 p.m.

    Duckhunter

    "I like how a single article asking legitimate questions sends utah "fans" into victim mode. LOL!"

    Yeah, and we certainly never see you and your cougar brethren do this. Laughing quietly.

  • GoRed WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 12:37 p.m.

    @ducky

    Interesting how byu "fans" like yourself are quick to jump onto any article that might disparage the Utes. But that is the intent of Rock's argument, so I guess he succeeded.

    As for your comment of "critical analysis of (the Utes') team and their prospects," it is NOT a critical analysis. It is merely a slanted opinion, similar to yours. For that matter, the article could compare byu with Army, a similar independent team, and rail against them and their very slim chances of ever making it into a BCS bowl, basing the argument that because Army hasn't been to a BCS bowl, then neither will byu.

    Hopefully you see the fallacies in Rock's and your argument.

  • Lloyd Christmas Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 1:00 p.m.

    Utes: What do you think the chances are of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together?
    Rose Bowl: Well, Lloyd, that's difficult to say. I mean, we don't really...
    Utes: Hit me with it! Just give it to me straight! I came a long way just to see you, Pasadena. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
    Rose Bowl: Not good.
    Utes: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
    Rose Bowl: I'd say more like one out of a million.
    [pause]
    Utes: So you're telling me there's a chance... *YEAH!*

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 1:17 p.m.

    Uteology,

    I too think the sample size is too small to come to any kind of a conclusion. Just as it is with BYU and Independence.

    However, this is a critical year for both programs. If they struggle, then you will see a trend start that could spin out of control quickly. The newness of the PAC will wear off quickly for recruits if the losing continues. Which is exactly why Arizona has struggled.

    When the water starts swirling down the drain, sometimes it is very hard to stop. I hope Utah and BYU can stop it before it even starts. It will be harder for Utah though because of that SOS that Utah fans like to point to so often.

  • kitsutsuki South Jordan, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 1:20 p.m.

    Doesn't this article simply state the obvious? Ever since Utah was invited to the PAC11+u and Utah fans have been shooting their mouths off, many more knowledgeable fans have pointed out that AZ and ASU have been members since the 70's - and how many Rose Bowl appearances do they have between them?

    For Utah fans to expect anything else is laughable.

  • That's A Good One Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 1:23 p.m.

    Brad Rock: Could Utah football be the new Arizona?

    That caption is rhetorical, right?

  • Balan South Jordan, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 1:40 p.m.

    A couple of comments from a dyed-in-the-wool Cougar: #1) Yes, most Cougar fans would love to be invited to a major conference - but we haven't and possibly never will be. So we did the next best thing, which few schools could ever do, and went independent. It was the second best option and we jumped on it, and #2) Utah has "owned" BYU over the past decade or so. No argument from this Cougar fan.

    Neither of these facts have anything to do with the topic at hand, however. My take on Utah is that they have bitten off a huge chunk by joining the PAC 12 and it will take them years and years, if ever, to be competitive on a regular basis. From the standpoint of geography alone, most football players would rather play in the warm weather of AZ or on the coast in CA, OR, or WA.

    Utah, you got what you asked for so stop with the excuses, the "what-ifs", the whining, and the deflection of the topic at hand to a BYU hate-fest. If you can't handle the heat then don't read the articles.

  • 2BCSWINS West of I15, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 1:46 p.m.

    @talkinsports..."LOL at the spin. U had a gift-wrapped PAC south there for the taking and U were dominated at home in the first half by a 10-loss team that hadn't won a road game in four years."

    LOL at the spin the Y was dominated by a team that was dominated by 10 loss team in the first half 54 - 10 on their home field.

    Sad you have to ride the coat tails of a 10 loss team because your team couldnt come within 44 points on their home field!

  • 2BCSWINS West of I15, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 1:57 p.m.

    @ducky..."But please tell us, and try to do so rationally if possible, why utah will be any more than arizona has been? What advantages does utah have over arizona that should make us believe they will more successful than arizona has been?"

    Please tell us why you care? As badly as the U dominates the Y if the cat's are equal to the utes that would mean their far greater than the Y. So I'm not sure why you care who's better out of Arizona and the Utes?

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    Aug. 4, 2013 2:05 p.m.

    silent stalker

    I guess it is time to remind the Utah faithful that one game does not a season make. Utah's big win over BYU was negated by Utah's ugly home loss to a 10-loss team that hadn't won a road game in four years.

    Meanwhile, BYU finished with another 10-win season and another Top 25 ranking. A down season for BYU was better than all but 7 seasons in Utah history.

    Bottom line:

    #25/#26/#34 BYU(10-3) BETTER THAN unranked/#39 Utah(8-5)

    U finished the season beating the #56 team in overtime. BYU finished the season beating the #35 team in regulation, a team ranked HIGHER than Utah.

    --------

    WACpaddled

    Baby steps:

    Beat ranked teams. Not just one every so often.

    Remind us how many ranked team the Utes have beaten in the last four years.

    -----------

    gored

    Rock is simply saying what many BYU fans have been saying for years, that it was far more likely that the Utes would end up more like Arizona (30 years in the conference and still no Rose Bowl), than like one of the big boys.

  • The Anti Chris Eugene, OR
    Aug. 4, 2013 2:21 p.m.

    Utah should be so lucky to think they would be the next Arizona. Arizona at least is in the middle of the PAC. Utah will continue in their new role as the bottom feeders for many years to come. They may get a minor bowl invite every so often in the event the happen to get 6 wins again.
    I love my independeence.

  • 2BCSWINS West of I15, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 2:22 p.m.

    @kitsutsuki...."many more knowledgeable fans have pointed out that AZ and ASU have been members since the 70's - and how many Rose Bowl appearances do they have between them?"

    "For Utah fans to expect anything else is laughable."

    How many Rose bowl or any BCS bowl appearances for that matter does the Y have?

    Not sure what you're trying to point out here? For the Y to expect anymore then the kraft fight nobody cares bowl is laughable.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 2:23 p.m.

    Uteology

    "Speaking SPIN, why didn't you call this out:

    "The Cougars are coming off a great defensive year and a disappointing offensive year. It is hard to believe with all of the disappointment that the team was four plays away from a 12-1 season."

    No need to call it out, it's true.

    Without one bad snap, scoop and score, BYU beats Utah 21 to 17.
    With one made block and a completed pass on the 2-point conversion, BYU beats BSU 8-7.
    With one well-throw ball to a wide open Hoffman with nothing but green grass in front of him, BYU beats Notre Dame 21-17.
    With one completed 6-yard pass on 2nd, 3rd or 4th down midway through the 4th quarter, BYU beats San Jose State 21-20.

    BYU was literally 4 plays away from a 12-1 season and a legitimate shot at a BCS game in 2012.

    Obviously, it didn't happen, but it's also obvious, that it was very possible.

    ----------

    Meanwhile, 5 of Utah's 7 losses were by double-digits, and U only beat pathetic 11-loss Colorado by a touchdown.

  • Steven S Jarvis Orem, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 2:23 p.m.

    Are DuckHunter and Chris B. the same person? They sure sound like the same person bagging on the Cougars or the Utes in the same fashion. Perhaps it is time that DNews follows what many online papers do by requiring posters to be connected to Facebook and identifiable.

    If I am not mistaken, teams like Washington State, Arizona State, Oregon State, Cal and Arizona (Half the original PAC12) have only played in the Rose Bowl one or two times apiece over the last forty years. The measuring stick of a successful year going forward for the Utes should be bowl eligibility, not winning the conference title. The Utes missed a bowl last year, and with the schedules going forward for the next four years are going to have a tremendous challenge getting six wins.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 2:37 p.m.

    2b

    One game does not a season make. Most fans and poll voters are smart enough to figure out that BYU's 7-turnover meltdown against Utah, especially coming as it did so early in the season, was not a true indicator of the relative strength/weakness of either team.

    As the season played out, it became obvious to everybody not living under that crimson bubble on the hill that BYU was MUCH better than their early September meltdown against Utah, and, that Utah wasn't nearly as good as their September win might have indicated.

    Following their BYU win, the Utes lost 3 of their next 4 games, in ugly fashion, suffered that humiliating home loss to one of the worst teams in the country, and didn't beat another team with a winning record until their bowl game, which the Utes barely won in overtime.

  • Cougar_Independence OMAHA, NE
    Aug. 4, 2013 2:49 p.m.

    [From the article] "Will those additions put the Utes in the Rose Bowl?

    Right now they’d be happy to return to anyone’s bowl."

    This empitimizes what the fans of the little school on the hill are feeling the last 9 months. Big brother went bowling, and little brother stayed home. Envy anyone?

  • Wally West SLC, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 3:03 p.m.

    To Duckhunter

    No victim mode from me. Just a simple & accurate observation.

    Don't believe me? Go back and research prior stories from outlets that aren't KSL or the DN.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 3:09 p.m.

    Uteanymous
    Salt Lake City, Utah

    Uteology

    "Speaking SPIN, why didn't you call this out:

    "The Cougars are coming off a great defensive year and a disappointing offensive year. It is hard to believe with all of the disappointment that the team was four plays away from a 12-1 season."

    No need to call it out, it's true.

    Without one bad snap, scoop and score, BYU beats Utah 21 to 17.

    ---------

    Without a turnover by the punting team on our own 14 late in the 4th... the MUSS has no need to storm the field: Utah 14 BYU 10

    Spin away, spin master.

  • clehman Sandy, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 3:12 p.m.

    @Duckhunter

    "why utah will be any more than arizona has been? What advantages does utah have over arizona that should make us believe they will more successful than arizona has been?"

    Because Arizona was never more than a mediocre football program even before they entered the Pac 10. Also, Arizona is not Utah. Who cares what took place at the U of A football program since 1978? Seriously.

    For various reasons, they just haven't gotten it done. A football season is not played in a vacuum... meaning, that there are too many external factors to discuss over a 35 year period to explain Arizona's mediocrity in football. Some schools just never have good football teams.

    How the Arizona football program's lack of great success projects anything about the U of U football program's future success is something that hasn't been remotely proven by Mr. Rock. A list of similarities doesn't prove anything.

    It's just another article written by a smug journalist knowing that he'll get a thousand BYU trolls crowing and cuckling. By October, that crowing will be non-existent. If you want to mark Chris B.'s words on that, do so.

  • SportsFan Orem, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 3:44 p.m.

    Uteology

    The outcomes of lots of games are decided on a single play or two.

    You're the one who claimed that following statement is false...

    "The Cougars are coming off a great defensive year and a disappointing offensive year. It is hard to believe with all of the disappointment that the team was four plays away from a 12-1 season."

    Uteanymous proved that the statement is true with specific, verifiable evidence.

    Nothing in your rebuttal proved otherwise.

    Live with it!

  • SportsFan Orem, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 4:12 p.m.

    clehman

    "How the Arizona football program's lack of great success projects anything about the U of U football program's future success is something that hasn't been remotely proven by Mr. Rock."

    And, how Utah's MWC football success projects anything about Utah's future PAC success is also something that hasn't been remotely proven by of the hill dwellers.

    What we do know is a Utah program that had dominated the Rocky Mountain and Skyline conferences (winning 20 championships in 51 seasons), virtually dropped of the map when they joined a more competitive conference (only winning 2 conference championships in 37 seasons).

    gotta love how a simple question has sent Ute nation into a near panic attack of denial.

    Utah is much more "like" Arizona than the Utes are willing to admit. Unfortunately for U, that "likeness" isn't the pretty picture Utah fans have been painting with their rosy predictions of the Utes being an instant Rose Bowl contenders.

  • sammyg Springville, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 4:36 p.m.

    Duckhunter

    You forgot... Utah will always be a notch above Arizona because of the Trax and FrontRunner options. duh!

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 4:43 p.m.

    Lets look at talent by the numbers:

    NFL Talent:

    USC 53
    Oregon 39
    Stanford 32
    Utah 31

  • Mountainman56 Alpine, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 4:47 p.m.

    Anyone with any amount of objectivity in looking at Utah's football future (and all sports for that matter) recognizes that the comparison with Arizona is spot on. I supported Utah 100% in their BCS bowls because it made the MWC and the state of Utah look good. It would be great if Utah could get to a Rose Bowl in the foreseeable future but the likelihood of that happening is slim to none. I can't come up with any scenario that would make me believe that Utah has any chance of beating out the top teams in the PAC 12 any time soon. If someone else out there has a logical and rational thesis on how Utah gets to the top of the PAC 12, I'd love to hear it.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 5:01 p.m.

    SportsFan
    Orem, UT

    Uteology

    The outcomes of lots of games are decided on a single play or two.

    You're the one who claimed that following statement is false...

    "The Cougars are coming off a great defensive year and a disappointing offensive year. It is hard to believe with all of the disappointment that the team was four plays away from a 12-1 season."

    Uteanymous proved that the statement is true with specific, verifiable evidence.

    Nothing in your rebuttal proved otherwise.

    Live with it!

    -------------

    Here's more verifiable evidence that was left out in that statement. BYU was also ONE play from going 7-6:

    "The Aggies (4-2) had a chance to tie the game with 7:47 left but Josh Thompson pulled a 38-yard field goal attempt wide left. The Aggies also are six points from being undefeated, having lost by two on the road to Wisconsin and now by three to the Cougars."

    Yet BYU fans are here accusing Utah fans of making "excuses and whining". How ironic.

  • killarney Lincoln Park, IL
    Aug. 4, 2013 5:02 p.m.

    "Could Utah football be the new Arizona?"

    There's certainly no evidence to suggest otherwise.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 6:02 p.m.

    Here’s a look at the talent by the numbers:

    NFL Talent:

    USC 53
    Oregon 39
    Stanford 32
    Utah 31
    Arizona 20
    Colorado 15
    BYU 13
    Washington State 11

    Recruiting Talent (PAC-12 rankings over 3 years):
    #1 USC
    #3 Washington
    #7 Utah
    #9 Arizona
    #12 Washington State

    Just for kicks let’s look at BYU:
    2013: #63 ... equal to #12 P12 Colorado overall 69
    2012: #60 ... equal to #12 P12 - Washington State overall 50
    2011: #66 ... equal to #12 P12 - Arizona overall 70

    So numbers seem to suggest BYU would be ranked near "Rock" bottom in PAC-12 talent.

  • FatMan86 West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 6:32 p.m.

    Yawn, Utah still doesn't have the wins. Neither does BYU.

    Neither one has any room to brag and neither is making the State Of Utah look good in the national picture.

    The Arizona of the PAC 12?? More like the Wash St. And BYU is basically La Tech in their realm.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 6:40 p.m.

    @clehman

    Nor has utah ever been much of a football program. utah "fans" act as if two years makes a program, it doesn't. utah's other season's have been average or slightly above average the last decade and they have little history of being anything outside of those 10 mostly ok years.

    I'd really like to know why utah "fans" think utah will ever be more than what arizona has been, a middle to bottom of the pac program. I understand utah "fans" want them to be better than that, I understand utah "fans" hope they are better than that, but what evidence is there to think they actually will be? There really is none.

    Recruiting? Bottom half. Location? Bottom 2. Weather? Bottom 2. Budget? Dead last. Past accomplishments? Dead last. There just isn't any real reason to think otherwise.

    Once again I understand you hope they will be better. I understand you want them to be better. But of course your hopes and desires really don't mean anything, that is all they are. Actual rational thought tells us they'll be far less than your hopes and desires.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 7:19 p.m.

    Uteology.

    "Here's more verifiable evidence that was left out in that statement. BYU was also ONE play from going 7-6:

    "The Aggies (4-2) had a chance to tie the game with 7:47 left but Josh Thompson pulled a 38-yard field goal attempt wide left. The Aggies also are six points from being undefeated, having lost by two on the road to Wisconsin and now by three to the Cougars."

    Yet BYU fans are here accusing Utah fans of making "excuses and whining". How ironic."

    The irony is that you are trying to make BYU fans apologize for a comment by the D-news. A comment which was in fact true. You can come up with all the scenarios you want to but the fact remains that BYU was only a few plays from a 12-1 season. Was BYU one play from a 7-6 season? Absolutely. But that doesn't make the comment by the D-news false.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 7:20 p.m.

    Uteology,

    "Here’s a look at the talent by the numbers:

    NFL Talent:

    USC 53
    Oregon 39
    Stanford 32
    Utah 31
    Arizona 20
    Colorado 15
    BYU 13
    Washington State 11

    Recruiting Talent (PAC-12 rankings over 3 years):
    #1 USC
    #3 Washington
    #7 Utah
    #9 Arizona
    #12 Washington State

    Just for kicks let’s look at BYU:
    2013: #63 ... equal to #12 P12 Colorado overall 69
    2012: #60 ... equal to #12 P12 - Washington State overall 50
    2011: #66 ... equal to #12 P12 - Arizona overall 70

    So numbers seem to suggest BYU would be ranked near "Rock" bottom in PAC-12 talent."

    Once again proving that BYU is your measure of success. With all that talent it would appear that Utah has really laid an egg.

  • scott182 Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 7:24 p.m.

    Personally I thought Utah would do a little better than they have done so far in the Pac12, but I knew that things would be very different no matter what. As far as being the new Arizona, I wish I could see into the future, but I can not. It doesn't matter that much to me if they are a great team right now, I can't see not liking Utah for struggling. I know coach Whitt has done fantastic things and probably will again, it's just a game and it's fun to watch. Go Utes!

  • GoRed WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 8:10 p.m.

    @cougars1

    "With all that talent it would appear that Utah has really laid an egg."

    And yet they still continue to beat BYU. What does that say for your cougars?

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 8:33 p.m.

    GoRed,

    "And yet they still continue to beat BYU. What does that say for your cougars?"

    And once again, thank you for reinforcing my point that BYU is still Utah's measuring stick.

  • clehman Sandy, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 9:04 p.m.

    @DH

    Again, you miss the point completely.

    What has happened at Arizona and what will happen at Utah are two completely separate things. Utah is not Arizona. Similarities prove squat. Only time will tell how good (or bad) the Utes will be in the conference.

  • killarney Lincoln Park, IL
    Aug. 4, 2013 9:05 p.m.

    Uteology

    "Lets look at talent by the numbers:..."

    Who cares? None of those former Utah players now playing in the NFL can help U anymore than BYU's greats of the past can help BYU.

    With all that talent, the Utes still haven't beaten a single PAC 12 team with a winning record. It obviously takes more than talent to win a football game.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    Aug. 4, 2013 9:32 p.m.

    clehman

    What happened at Arizona is exactly the same thing that IS happening at Utah.

    A sometimes WAC conference contender, reduced to frequent PAC conference bottom dweller. After 35 years in the PAC, the Wildcats have only had FIVE AP Top 25 finishes, the last in 1998, a decade and a half ago.

    Unfortunately for U, the Utes aren't even as good as Arizona. At least the Wildcats are competitive in other sports.

  • Snack PAC Olympus Cove, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 10:19 p.m.

    Uteology

    It must be so frustrating, having such an embarrassment of talent, and still not be good enough to be ranked in the Top 25 or qualify for a bowl game.

    During the Independent/PAC era

    Top 25 Finishes
    BYU 1
    Utah 0

    Bowl Games
    BYU 2
    Utah 1

    Average Sagarin Ranking
    BYU 30
    Utah 50

    Of course, you'll trying to spin Utah's sorry performance as simply a result of playing a stronger schedule, but the truth is, rankings are based on record versus schedule.

    How else do you explain

    #13 Ohio State(12-0) #60 SOS, finishing higher in the Sagarin rankings than
    #19 USU(11-2) #97 SOS,
    #26 BYU(8-5) #64 SOS, and
    #61 Utah(5-7) #41 SOS?

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 11:20 p.m.

    We would have been in the Rose bowl a bunch by now. We make it to ROse bowl most years easily.

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 9:03 a.m.

    re: Cougars1

    Did you pay attention to The HOF game last night? Did you notice that an undrafted Ute had 2 sacks? Shelby > Ansah.

  • Utefan4Lyf West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 9:23 a.m.

    I'm not sure why it matters whether BYU lost by one point or 20? At the end of the season all that really matters to most people is whether there is a tick in the W or L column. As I see it, the Utes are two years into a new future with some awesome games ahead of us. No Ute fan is delusional enough to think we're going undefeated; however, each year we'll get better and increase our talent level. Will we get to the Rose Bowl every year? Most likely not, but I believe we'll start bowling almost every year. And every year, whether we bowl or not, I will still enjoy coming onto the board and telling the Cougar fans who attempt to berate my Utes just what the overall record between the two teams is. Because that is what matters between rivals. The final score.

  • Utefan4Lyf West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 9:27 a.m.

    Cougars1: BYU is Utah's measuring stick when discussing sports with BYU fans. You have no basis for telling us BYU is better until the record proves so, and I believe that will take another 20 years of consistent victories. So, good luck with that.

  • Swoop Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 9:44 a.m.

    Utefan4Lyf

    "You have no basis for telling us BYU is better until the record proves so..."

    5 of the last 8 seasons, BYU has finished with a better record and higher ranking than Utah.

    BYU's record proves that BYU is better.

    In fact, BYU has almost as many AP Top 25 finishes in the last 7 years (2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009), as Utah has in their ENTIRE HISTORY.

    The overall record speaks for itself; Utah fans simply choose to ignore it - one game does not a season make.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 10:04 a.m.

    Ute4life,

    Once again you compare all things Utah to BYU. You have just measured Utah's success based on whether a Utah player is better than a BYU player.

  • Utefan4Lyf West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 10:34 a.m.

    Cougars1: Tell me which individual player I was comparing. I was simply pointing out the following record:
    56-34-4.
    So, actually, you'll need 23 years of straight victories to be better than us. Until both schools play the same opponents each year, this is the only record that matters between the two schools.

  • That's A Good One Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 11:13 a.m.

    Hank Pym: Did you pay attention to The HOF game last night? Did you notice that an undrafted Ute had 2 sacks? Shelby > Ansah.

    LOL. That's a laugher. You do realize that was like a JV AAU game and the real players that actually played hardly even broke a sweat right Hank? Good for Shelby. > Ansah? That's a good one!

  • Y>U Anaheim, CA
    Aug. 5, 2013 11:22 a.m.

    Utefan4Lyf

    Step into the modern era.

    Since color television replaced radio and b&w television,

    BYU is 29-21 versus Utah.

    More importantly, in the national rankings, BYU leads Utah 17-5 in AP Top 25 finishes.

    At Utah's current rate of one AP Top 25 finish every 13 seasons, it'll take the Utes approximately 156 years to match BYU's current total of 17 AP Top 25 finishes.

    Of course, since BYU has averaged one AP Top 25 finish every 2 seasons for the past 36 seasons, by the time Utah reaches SEVENTEEN, BYU will have approximately NINETY-TWO AP Top 25 finishes!

  • U 90 Corona, CA
    Aug. 5, 2013 11:32 a.m.

    @Swoop "5 of the last 8 seasons, BYU has finished with a better record and higher ranking than Utah"

    When you look at W-L records shouldn't you also look at SOS? One team is 5-7 with an SOS on the low 40's, while the other team went 7-5 in the regular season with an SOS in the high 60's. The 5-7 team then goes on to beat the 7-5 team in the head-to-head match up. Who's the better team?

    Utah probably would have finished 7-5 or better if they would have loaded up their schedule with Idaho, Hawaii, Weber State and New Mexico State. There's more to the analysis than just W-L records. That's why a 2 loss SEC team can make it to the NC game... SOS.

  • U 90 Corona, CA
    Aug. 5, 2013 11:51 a.m.

    @Y>U

    Step into the really modern era.

    Since 2000 Utah leads the head-to-head 8-5

    More importantly, in top 5 rankings Utah leads BYU 2-0. In big-time bowl victories Utah is 2 while BYU doesn't even have an appearance.

    At BYU's current rate of getting in to a top level bowl, it will take approximately infinity to match Utah's success.

  • BYUHOCKEY American Fork, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 11:53 a.m.

    what was interesting last year is that USU beat Utah, Utah Beat BYU and BYU barely beat USU on BYU's home turf. USU has the best QB in the state in Chuckie K.
    I am glad that Brad Rock agrees with my vision for Utah football. Utah and Colorado were invited into the Pac10 in order to take the place of ASU and AZ as non-threats to the PAC12 championship. As USC and Oregon exchange good seasons for great seasons tainted by cheating Utah will occasionally be allowed to win the southern division but likely not get to the rose bud bowl.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    Aug. 5, 2013 12:09 p.m.

    U 90

    @Swoop: "When you look at W-L records shouldn't you also look at SOS?"

    Why?

    The rankings already consider SOS when they're calculated, so why are Utah fans constantly whining about SOS?

    During the last two seasons, with SOS already calculated in the rankings formula, BYU's average Sagarin ranking has been #30; Utah's has been #50.

    A team that's proven that they're capable of losing to ANYBODY (see UNLV and Colorado), can't be considered a lock to beat anybody.

    Playing BYU's schedule, it's a given that Utah would have lost to Utah State, Oregon State, Notre Dame, Georgia Tech, Boise State, and San Jose State, so at best, Utah would have finished 6-6, with a loss to SDSU in the Poinsettia Bowl, to finish 6-7. With an upset loss to any of BYU's remaining opponents, the Utes would have finished 5-7, just like they finished against their own slightly tougher schedule.

  • clehman Sandy, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 12:17 p.m.

    @phoenix

    "What happened at Arizona is exactly the same thing that IS happening at Utah."

    It's like talking to a wall. A few similarities don't mean anything when there are as many or more differences between the schools.

    @DH

    Your logic is fallacious. You say that Utah's funding and location are at the bottom of the conference in your argument that Utah will never be a top team in the conference; yet Washington State makes less money, has a worse location, and has been to multiple Rose Bowls.

    I'm not saying Utah will be a perennial Rose Bowl team and never have. I'm not one of those Ute fans.

    I'm just saying that this is a really fallacious argument in total, because Arizona is not Utah. Period.

  • Utefan4Lyf West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 12:21 p.m.

    @Y>U: How easy is it to determine a win-loss record by taking a subsection of the entire range? You can see that it can work to anybody's advantage. Are you saying every win or loss prior to 1963 should just be wiped clean? If that is the case, I agree with U 90, every loss prior to 2000 should be removed. After all, we're in a new century. In that case, it will take at least four years to catch up. Still, good luck with that.

  • LonestarRunner Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 12:25 p.m.

    U 90

    Since when did the modern era begin in 2000?

    If you want to talk relevant, recent history:

    During the Bronco/Kyle era

    Top 25 Finishes
    Bronco 5
    Kyle 3

    Top 15 Finishes
    Bronco 3
    Kyle 1

    Conference Championships
    Bronco 2
    Kyle 1

    Overall
    Bronco has finished ahead of Kyle in records AND rankings in 5 of the last 8 seasons.

    Since Kyle's flash-in-the-pan 2008 season:

    Top 25 Wins
    Bronco 2 - #18/#18 and #16/#
    Kyle 1 - ur/#25

    Top 25 Rankings
    Bronco 2 - #12/#12, ur/#25
    Kyle 2 - #18/#18, ur/#23

    Bowl Record
    Bronco 4-0
    Kyle 2-1

  • jeru0455 SALEM, OR
    Aug. 5, 2013 12:41 p.m.

    Did someone on here seriously say that they think that BYU will be competing for National Championships?! Is that a joke?

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 12:42 p.m.

    Ute4life,
    My mistake. Hank was comparing players. But there you go measuring Utah's success based upon their record against BYU. Great, let us know when Utah will beat a team on the PAC with a winning record.

  • Utefan4Lyf West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 1:10 p.m.

    Cougars1: You are still misinterpreting. I'm not measuring Utah's overall success, I'm measuring their success against BYU because I'm responding to a BYU fan and that is only thing that counts. Unless both teams play the exact same schedule, then the rest doesn't matter. I can get into SOS and some other stats, but that still doesn't definitely tell us who is better. Only playing each other does. So, therefore, Utah is better than BYU because our record against BYU proves it.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 1:49 p.m.

    Ute4,
    I am not arguing that BYU is better. They need to neat Utah to prove that. I never said BYU was better. All I am saying is that Utah fans measure the success of their team based on how they do against BYU. Once again, show me where I ever said BYU was better.

  • Swoop Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 2:28 p.m.

    Utefan4Lyf

    LOL at your delusional spin.

    You can compare teams based on SOS, but you can't compare teams based on ranking?

    You do realize, don't you, that SOS is derived by adding up the rankings of all opponents, and then dividing by the number of opponents to calculate their average ranking?

    And, since when does one game in twelve provide definitive proof of which team is better?

    Was UNLV(10-2) BETTER than Utah(9-4) in 2007?
    Was Colorado(10-3) BETTER than Utah(8-5) in 2011?
    Was Texas A&M BETTER than Alabama in 2012?

    BETTER not just for one game, but BETTER overall for the entire season?

    It's laughable that Utah fans continue to claim something that they don't even believe themselves, except when it comes to comparing BYU and Utah.

    It simply demonstrates how desperately you'll cling to any argument, regardless of how ridiculous, as long as it gives you even the tiniest hope of being better than BYU at something.

    Higher Ranking = Better Team

    Even you believe that, so stop pretending it's not true.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 2:36 p.m.

    @clehman

    Oh I got your "point" just fine, you just were wrong about it. The point of the article, which you have apparently missed completely, is that utah appears to be heaed toward the bottom of the conference with no rose bowl appearances ever, and that is exactly what arizona has been in the pac 10. So no utah cannot litterally be arizona, and you taking it that litterally is pretty amusing, the point rock made was utah is looking like they'll be every bit as pathetic as arizona and I would say that appears to be a very apt comparison on rocks part.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 2:46 p.m.

    @clehman

    Talk about "fallacious". You try to use washington st as a point in an argument about utah being compared to arizona while trying to say you can't make an argument between utah and arizona. Why is it ok to compare utah to washington st but not arizona? Typical utah "fan" double standard on display.

    You are correct, utah IS NOT arizona. utah is a worse location, with worse weather, and has far less funding than arizona does. utah is a btter location than washington st, you'll notice I said utah was in the 2nd worst location, but utah's funding is less than washington st's so you probably need to do your research there.

    All in all utah has the most knocks against it in the conference when you compare all the factors needed to be good. I showed them pretty well. In fact utah doesn't have any advantages at all when compared to the remainder of the conference. They may have one or two advantages over a couple of the other teams that occupy the bottom of the conference with them but on the whole they trail even those other bottom feeders.

  • Utefan4Lyf West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 2:48 p.m.

    I didn't say you did. I told you that Utah fans use BYU as a measuring stick to show that Utah is better when responding to a BYU fan.

  • 2BCSWINS West of I15, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 3:14 p.m.

    @lonestarrunner....If you want to talk relevant, recent history:

    During the Bronco/Kyle era

    Top 25 Finishes
    Bronco 5
    Kyle 3

    Top 15 Finishes
    Bronco 3
    Kyle 1

    Why don't you list top 5 finishes and head to head vs the two? Also your bowl record for the bronco/kyle era is way off

  • U 90 Corona, CA
    Aug. 5, 2013 3:56 p.m.

    Cougars1,

    In most cases Utah fans are not gauging success on comparisons with BYU. Beating BYU seems rather easy lately. What ends up happening on these threads is BYU fan will say, "Utah is a doormat". Then Ute fan responds with, "BYU can't beat that doormat, what does that say about BYU?' To which the Y fan response, "BYU is your measuring stick, therefore you must be little brother".

    It's all pretty foolish, so I'll tell you what, I will agree that BYU has more national prominence all-time in football, if you will agree that Utah has owned BYU and has more national prominence over the past 10 years (kind of the opposite of basketball). Can you agree to that?

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Aug. 5, 2013 3:59 p.m.

    @Lonestarrunner

    Why do never include head to head record or BCS bowls? Do you ever get tired of posting the same biased, slanted stats over, and over again? It grows old and tiresome.

  • clehman Sandy, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 6:42 p.m.

    @DH

    I was using your fallacy as an illustration, not as a point in any of my own arguments.

    It's not about whether or not Utah is literally Arizona or vice versa. The argument simply can't be made that Utah will end up like Arizona in football because there are a few similarities between the two.

    The reason? There are probably far more differences between the two programs than similarities... which renders the whole article unreliable as any type of proof.

    I can't wait till the actual ball is in the air and the scores are on the board so the BYU trolls will crawl back under their bridges for another year.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 8:36 p.m.

    U90,
    Have you not read my posts. Until BYU beats Utah, they really have nothing to brag about as far as the rivalry is concerned. That doesn't mean that BYU didn't have a better overall year than Utah last year. But yes, Utah gets the bragging rights.

    Ute4life,

    Nice spin. BYU fans talk about how bad Utah is and will be in the PAC and they immediately start talking about how they own BYU. Hence, the comments about BYU being Utah's measuring stick. As in Utah thinks it a successful season if they beat BYU. After all, that is the first thing Utah fans like to point at when the subject comes up as to how pathetic Utah is in the PAC. Please explain why Utah has yet to beat a PAC team with a winning record without mentioning anything about BYU.

  • PAC man Anaheim, CA
    Aug. 5, 2013 9:38 p.m.

    2b

    "Why don't you list top 5 finishes and head to head vs the two? Also your bowl record for the Bronco/Kyle era is way off"

    two words: reading comprehension

    The bowl record listed was "since" Kyle's flash-in-the-pan 2008 season:

    Bowl Record
    Bronco 4-0
    Kyle 2-1

    Kyle gets credit for his one great flash-in-the-pan season one Top 5 finish, but his overall record still falls short of Bronco's.

    Overall, Bronco has three times more Top 15 finishes, twice as many AP Top 25 finishes, twice as many conference championships, a better overall record 74-29 versus 70-32, one more bowl, and no losing seasons.

    Kyle has a 5-3 advantage head-to-head win.
    Bronco has a 5-3 advantage in overall records and rankings.

    btw, forgot to give Kyle credit for his two losses to 10-loss teams, and his losses to every bottom dwelling team in the MWC - Wyoming, Colorado State, New Mexico, and UNLV - teams Bronco never lost to.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 10:18 p.m.

    @clehman

    The article wasn't "proof" of anything, it was speculation based on some similarities, and yes there are quite a few similarities. I'm guessing you are one of those guys that takes every single thing literally and has no concept of sarcasm, generalities, or even similarities. You are incapable of disseminating the difference between speculation and statements of fact.

    The article was SPECULATION based on similarities. I can see the similarities, I can see the point rock was making, I can take it for what it is. Of course no one KNOWS how utah's future will turn out but all we have to guess with is the past and the present and the past and the present is not very good.

  • Utefan4Lyf West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 6, 2013 8:45 a.m.

    @Cougars1:
    There was no spin. I agree wholeheartedly with U90. It's a pretty simple concept. And as for your question about the PAC I can honestly answer that the Utes have entered into a much tougher conference with teams who have had years to recruit higher caliber players. That coupled with the Utes trouble at QB and last year on the O line has made the transition difficult. Fair enough?

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    Aug. 6, 2013 9:08 a.m.

    Ute4life,
    Fair enough. I also think the coaching staff is going through a learning curve as they adjust to playing tougher teams week in and week out. I just hope the fans are patient with them as they adjust.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    Aug. 6, 2013 10:27 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    One game does not a season make; and one season does not a career make.

    I know it bugs U that Bronco has achieved more overall than Kyle during the Bronco/Kyle era, but that's just the way it is.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 6, 2013 11:55 a.m.

    @PAC man

    You mean the same flash-in-the-pan 2008 season that you Quested for? That same flash-in-the-pan season that Bronco is still Questing" for 6 years later?

    In the last three years in MWC:

    1. TCU 36-3 (all 3 loses to AP ranked teams)
    2. Utah 33-6 (all 6 loses to AP ranked teams)
    3. BYU 28-11

    In 2010 BYU finished 5th overall in a 3 team MWC at 6-6. You started out 2-5 including being exposed by 4-8 Utah State 38-16. Then qualified for a Bowl by beating teams with a combined record of 9-40 and because of an alum in the replay booth. Beat 6-7 UTEP in New Mexico and carried Bronco off the field.

    Since then...

    1. TCU 18-7 (11-2 MWC 7-6 Big 12)
    2. BYU 18-8 (Indy)
    2. Utah 13-12 (PAC-12)

    AP Rankings:
    Bronco - 2006 #16, 2007 #14, 2008 #25, 2009 #12
    Kyle - 2008 #2, 2009 #18

    So Bronco has 0 undefeated teams, 0 BCS wins, 0 top 10, 2 top 15, 4 top 25
    Kyle has the highest ranked mid-major team under BCS rules

  • TheSportsAuthority Arlington, VA
    Aug. 6, 2013 4:32 p.m.

    Uteology

    "In the last three years in MWC:"

    Gotta laugh at the time snippets you're forced to use to help you sleep at night.

    Why not use the last five years in the MWC, giving Bronco a year to rebuild from Crowton's ashes?

    Overall Record (2006-2010)
    Bronco 50-15
    Kyle 50-15

    AP Top 25
    Bronco 16, 14, 25, 12
    Kyle 2, 18

    Coaches Top 25
    Bronco 15, 15, 21, 12
    Kyle 4, 18, 23

    Top 15 Finishes
    Bronco 3
    Kyle 1

    Conference Championships
    Bronco 2
    Kyle 1

    10+ Win Seasons
    Bronco 4
    Kyle 2

    Head-to-head
    Bronco 3
    Kyle 2

    Conference Finishes
    Bronco 1, 1, 3, 2, 3 - Average 2.0
    Kyle 3, 3, 1, 3, 2 - Average 2.4

    Average Sagarin Ranking
    Bronco 26
    Kyle 29

    ---------------------
    Since then, Independent/PAC era

    Bronco 18-8
    Kyle 13-12

    Top 25 Finishes
    Bronco 1
    Kyle 0

    Bowl Wins
    Bronco 2
    Kyle 1

    Average Sagarin Ranking
    Bronco 30
    Kyle 50

    Kyle had one great, undefeated, Top 5, flash-in-the-pan season, in 2008.

    Bronco had three very good, 11-win, Top 15 seasons in 2006, 2007, and 2009.

    Overall, Bronco > Kyle.

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    Aug. 6, 2013 5:01 p.m.

    TheSportsAuthority

    "Bronco had three very good, 11-win, Top 15 seasons in 2006, 2007, and 2009."

    Outside of their undefeated 12-0 and 13-0 seasons in 2004 and 2008, the Utes have never had an 11-win season.

    Put another way, Bronco had more 11-win seasons in the space of four years, than the Utes have had in their entire history.

    During the same period, Bronco had four straight AP Top 25 finishes; the Utes have never had more than two AP Top 25 finishes in a row.

  • GoRed WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    Aug. 7, 2013 10:06 p.m.

    *Yawn*

    All of the irrelevant secondary facts in the world won't change the only stat that counts: HEAD-TO-HEAD COMPETITION!

    That would be 3 in a row, 4 out of 5, 8 out of 11, and overall 56-34-4.

    Advantage Utah. Forever.

  • TheSportsAuthority Arlington, VA
    Aug. 8, 2013 7:46 a.m.

    GoRed

    "All of the irrelevant secondary facts in the world won't change the only stat that counts: HEAD-TO-HEAD COMPETITION!"

    If that were true, then

    UNLV(2-10) was BETTER than Utah(9-4)

    Colorado(3-10) was BETTER than Utah(8-5)

    and

    Texas A&M was BETTER than undisputed National Champion Alabama
    (which, btw, received EVERY 1st-place vote in both the AP and Coaches polls).

    Funny how Texas A&M's head-to-head win over Alabama was COMPLETELY IGNORED by every single voter in the final polls.

    Despite Utah fans' frantic and emotional attempts to ignore reality, there's far more to judging which team is BETTER each season, than one head-to-head game.

  • talkinsports Gilbert, AZ
    Aug. 8, 2013 12:34 p.m.

    TheSportsAuthority

    "Funny how Texas A&M's head-to-head win over Alabama was COMPLETELY IGNORED by every single voter in the final polls."

    So if Texas A&M were Utah, and BYU was Alabama, Utah fans would be claiming that Utah was BETTER than the national champion, even though BYU finished #1 in the polls, with every single #1 vote in both polls, and Utah finished #5 in both polls.

    All based on the fallacious argument that "All of the irrelevant secondary facts in the world won't change the only stat that counts: HEAD-TO-HEAD COMPETITION!"