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Faith

Reader voices: The prophet Mormon and his work on the Book of Mormon

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  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 6:05 a.m.

    No man knows my history. You can believe what you want to believe

  • G L W8 SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 6:50 a.m.

    Since this article was just posted this morning, no comments have been posted as of this five minutes. But I suspect they soon will follow, both positive and negative. To those who tend to make light of anything LDS, I would encourage you to give the story of Mormon a chance. Even if you reject it as portrayed by the Book of Mormon story, it's at least a very exciting story of human courage in the face of adversity, as outlined by Keith Schofield. Please don't reject it because you believe it's in a taboo or evil book that no one should ever read. Nothing could be further from the truth.

  • BenTen SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 10:10 a.m.

    How is this news? Isn't this what the church magazines and Church News are for?

  • A Scientist Provo, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 10:31 a.m.

    G L W8 wrote:

    "I would encourage you to give the story of Mormon a chance. Even if you reject it as portrayed by the Book of Mormon story, it's at least a very exciting story of human courage in the face of adversity, as outlined by Keith Schofield. Please don't reject it because you believe it's in a taboo or evil book that no one should ever read. Nothing could be further from the truth."

    I have read the BOM numerous times, and prayed and fasted about it - all the "Moroni's Promise" things. And I have concluded that it is not "true".

    This does not mean it is "taboo or evil" - really? How superstitious a person must be to think of any book in those terms.

    That the story of Mormon is "very exciting and courageous" does not make it true. Literary fiction is filled with exciting and courageous stories. Consider how exciting and courageous are the stories written by L. Ron Hubbard! Are you willing to take your own advice and read Hubbard's writings? And then join Scientology?

  • ute alumni paradise, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 10:35 a.m.

    Thanks george for letting me believe what I want to believe. Very kind of you

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 10:56 a.m.

    There are good points in this article which is very appropriate to the "Faith" section, and on a Sunday when many will have additional time to reflect.

    The book is not, as many have said, a history of about 1,000 years; that is only the history of the Nephites. The history of the Jaredites, up until the children of Lehi arrived in the Americas, extends the history to about 2,700 years. Prophecies give perspective of the future of humanity after that time. It is a remarkable book.

    The greatest value of the book to me is in the editorial comments of Moroni, and other sections which give true meaning to history. It lays out historical patterns; history is not a march of progress as some have claimed but of cycles controlled by the people of various lands. History is not "accidental" as many historians once fashionably claimed. It has deep meaning. It selectivity reflects the conditions of our times both in the nations and in the Church.

  • Another Perspective Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 2:49 p.m.

    Indeed a great man but one with karma to satisfy which explains his getting killed by the Lamanites.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 2:59 p.m.

    No man knows my history? How about this?

    Joseph of Egypt
    King David
    Judas
    Mormon
    Joseph Smith

    If this doesn't quite make sense read the book of Judas which has recently been discovered.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Aug. 4, 2013 3:27 p.m.

    The BOM may be many things, but it is doubtful that it is history. Presently there is not one iota of evidence of it being a physical truth. Perhaps others can make a case for it being a truth of a different nature.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 5:01 p.m.

    Correction:

    In my former comments on this thread I should have referred to "the editorial comments of Mormon" (not Moroni) who selected and collated many records and gave them meaning by pointing out the rules of history and connecting the four different records.

    I thought, at my first cursory glances of Book of Mormon content, that it was an odd sort of history, because I was told that the "American Indians" came from Israel. It seemed a strange thing to say since I thought of "Indians" as near naked tribesmen with painted faces, not people with a history of revelation and a strict moral code.

    I since came to read the words of William Penn, who wrote of the similarity of the physiognomony of the Jews and the American natives, and those of George Caitlin (who produced prolific portraits of native Americans) and the explorer Kingsbury on the same subject, all three identifying native Americans as of that origin. Numerous cultural similarities and archaeological evidences further gave credence to the book's historicity.

    Yet it is not really for those reasons that I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon

  • Hold on a second Spring City, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 5:33 p.m.

    Only the Lord knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts. So it is not for us to judge others if they don't receive the same answers we may receive. For me, I could never deny my testimony of the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith. I fasted for three days, and was feeling well enough to continue fasting until I received the answers I was seeking. And I believe the Lord knew that.

    The greatest message I receive from Mormon and Moroni is that the Book of Mormon was and is for our day. They saw us and warned us of the wickedness of our times. The Book of Mormon is the greatest witness we have that another apostasy will occur in our time. As we read the parable of the olive tree, particularly in the Book of Mormon, we realize that in the latter days, the gospel will be taken from the gentiles (that’s us) and given back to Israel.

  • Bob A. Bohey Marlborough, MA
    Aug. 4, 2013 5:55 p.m.

    @Gildas: Your post and others are very puzzling to me. As far as I can determine there is no independent verification of the existence of the Jaredites, Nephites, Laminites(sp?), Lehi and his children outside of the Mormon religion.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 6:56 p.m.

    A couple historical points:

    To Gilda's:

    DNA testing has shown that the American Indians came from Asia, not Israel.

    To the author of this piece:

    Historians now say JS did not "translate" most of the ancient text into the B of M, but rather saw the words in English (in a seer stone) and dictated the English words he saw.

  • G L W8 SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 10:15 p.m.

    BTW: the idea that the Book of Mormon is "taboo or evil", is not my superstition. It's a fairly common reason given by those who fear to read the book. I've had friends who feared to even handle it for fear it would somehow curse them. Now, that's superstition!
    As to the criticism of those who say our spiritual experiences (LDS would talk in terms of witness of the Holy Ghost per Moroni 10:4) are had by credulous, unthinking, superstitious people, the spectrum of belief is too wide-spread for that: all the way from young children to believing scientists, educators, people of all walks of life. I had my first very real experience shortly around the time following my baptism at age 8. This is the wrong place for details, but I can clearly state that it came from completely outside my own mental processes--a very spiritually observable experience. Young children can have God-given answers.

  • JoeCoug OREM, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 7:51 a.m.

    I would just add to the discussion this: I was baptized a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in my 16th year. I have enjoyed reading and studying the Book of Mormon now for 35 years and, by doing so with a desire to be the best person I can, have been blessed with a multitude of spiritual confirmations that it was written and compiled for me and others of these days. Most special to me is the account of the visits Jesus Christ made to the people on this continent who survived the destruction incident to his death and resurrection.

    I am grateful for this, and strive to let these precious scriptures and experiences motivate me to forget myself and serve others. I completely respect the dissenting opinions, and can only say what I've experienced (and not disagree with you because I walk by faith). I appreciate the opportunity to express my experience and opinion in this forum.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 8:14 a.m.

    Of the origin of the native American:

    For their original, I am ready to believe them of the Jewish race, I mean of the stock of the ten tribes, and that for the following reasons: first, they were to go to a land not planted nor known.... In the next place, I find them of the like countenance, and their children of so lively resemblance, that a man would think himself in Duke's Place or Berry Street in London, when he seeth them. But this is not all: they agree in rites; they reckon by moons; they offer their first fruits; they have a kind of feast of tabernacles; they are said to lay their altar upon twelve stones; their mourning a year; customs of women; with many other things that do not now occur.

    William Penn, in a letter written in August or September of 1683

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 8:22 a.m.

    “ Eternal perspective ,"The promise of the Book of Mormon requires several key ingredients stated in Moroni 10 verses 3-5. These include “Ask of God” (a) In the name of Jesus Christ (i.e. know whom you pray to and in whose name),”

    Moroni 10: A testimony of the Book of Mormon comes by the power of the Holy Ghost—The gifts of the Spirit are dispensed to the faithful—Spiritual gifts always accompany faith ,“Moroni’s words speak from the Dust.”

    …. and your speech shall be low out of the dust, and your voice shall be, as of one that has a” Familiar Spirit”* out of the ground, and your speech shall whisper out of the Dust(Is 29:4) *ghost conjured up from the grave,(NLT)

    Regard not them that have “familiar spirits”, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I [am] the LORD your God.( Deut 19:31.)

    if they preach a different Jesus(exalted man) than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit(familiar) than the one you received…(2 Cor 11:4).

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Aug. 5, 2013 9:23 a.m.

    the truth

    You honestly think that because somebody got a different answer then you that they are wrong? Did you ever think that maybe your answer is wrong? I too have recieved an answer that it was false. It was very powerful, and unquestionable. Maybe the 99.5% of the world that isn't mormon got the wrong answer too?

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Aug. 5, 2013 10:48 a.m.

    All religion is about is feelings. If it makes you feel good and behave in a proper manner, then that is probably the right thing for you . But if it makes you feel good and act like a fool, then that isn't cool.

  • laVerl 09 St Johns, AZ
    Aug. 5, 2013 11:46 a.m.

    I appreciate this article because Mormon's son Moroni is the one who has stood in the limelight of modern history as the one who appeared to Joseph Smith and showed him where to find the plates. As an English major, I can appreciate the great responsibility Mormon must have felt as he summarized a thousand years of religious writings into one book, knowing that the testimonies of an entire future dispensation would be affected. AND the results of his efforts have been absolutely marvelous to us hundreds of years later. Jesus really IS my Savior just as the Bible says!

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Aug. 5, 2013 1:34 p.m.

    "These two great men, Joseph Smith and Mormon, both had a hand in advancing the work of bringing forth the Book of Mormon."
    ______________________________

    Where would either of them be without the other?

  • Harrison Lapahie Shiprock, NM
    Aug. 5, 2013 2:46 p.m.

    I am Navajo and Mormon. I have been told that American Indians are not Lamanites, but actually descendants of Asians and some European groups, through the scientific method of DNA testing, proving the BOM is not true. I have thought about this and came up with this conclusion: Native Americans are principal descendants from a few different racial groups! Some tribes have DNA traits from Asia, some from Europe, and at the minimum, a small near insignificant amount from the Middle East and Polynesia. But the Middle East and Polynesia is not shown as a racial trait because it is so insignificant with a sigma giving it no importance! This makes Lamanites among (not the principal) ancestors of American Indians. DNA testing started with no pure American Indian tribal member to be tested, as with other racial groups, and then having those impure racial groups to be compared with other impure American Indian tribal members. Therefore, the probability factor of Hebrew or Polynesian DNA in a Native American is insignificant! The BOM represents the Lamanites/Nephites, but also mentions another group, the Jaredites, who existed before the Lamanites, living in the New World. BOM is positive for all.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 4:39 p.m.

    @sharrona

    Different "familiar".

    familiar - something you know or recognize, something that is family

    But thanks for connecting Moroni/BOM and Isaiah/prophecy correctly.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 4:42 p.m.

    @Brahmabull

    A Scientist claimed he has received no answer, and made his own conclusions.

    I am sure it is the same for to you. But only you know the truth.

  • J.D. Aurora, CO
    Aug. 5, 2013 4:42 p.m.

    It is not worth being concerned about historical evidence. Brother Terryl Givens made it clear at one of the church firesides that one does not have to believe in a literal Book of Mormon to be a faithful member and hold a temple recommend. So, why argue about it.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Aug. 5, 2013 5:11 p.m.

    J.D.

    "....one does not have to believe in a literal Book of Mormon to be a faithful member and hold a temple recommend. So, why argue about it."
    ______________________________

    Joseph Smith himself ordained that it would be argued about endlessly by publishing it to an incredulous world as a translation of an ancient record. Had he offered it as an allegorical tale, the world might be less condemning and even reluctantly willing to consider its worth as an inspired work, if not scriptural.

  • MrNirom1 Oregon City, OR
    Aug. 5, 2013 5:41 p.m.

    @sharrona It is natural that some have misunderstood the term "familiar spirit." The contemporary use of familiar is as an adjective, derived from the Latin familiaris, meaning “domestic” (an adjectival formation from familia, “family”). The word means something like “intimate, very friendly.” But in about 1590 the word began to be used as a noun meaning “demon, evil spirit.”

    In the KJV, the “one that hath a familiar spirit” does not, mean that people will be familiar with it (i.e. "rings a bell," or something they've been acquainted with before)

    Rather, the term "familiar spirit" in Isaiah has something to do with divination by communicating with the spirits of the dead (necromancy). KJV use of “familiar” in this sense is an unfortunate translation, both because it confuses modern English readers and because it brings up images of medieval witchcraft that don't match the ancient biblical world.

    Isaiah is referring to events at Jerusalem (called "Ariel") Thus, Jerusalem and its inhabitants will be destroyed, and Isaiah says that the only thing that will linger on is their voices or witness "from beyond the grave," so to speak. FAIR

  • kvnsmnsn Springville, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 9:42 p.m.

    1aggie posted:

    =DNA testing has shown that the American Indians came from Asia, not Israel.

    When was that DNA testing done? Most of the time when I've heard of DNA testing it was done around 2000. But I have a distinct memory of watching NOVA with my father in 2008 where the NOVA researchers tried to copy the results of the DNA testing and discovered that indeed the majority of DNA came from Asia, but there was some DNA that they couldn't recognize.

  • EternalPerspective Eldersburg, MD
    Aug. 6, 2013 5:54 a.m.

    sharrona

    Scriptures in the Bible taken out of context and aimed at dismissing a religion contrary to one's own beliefs only conforms to man-made interpretation of doctrine.

    This is precisely why the Bible alone cannot create absolutism regarding the doctrine of Christ, the nature and character of God, and all His works.

    While most of Christianity accepts the Bible as the only scripture of God, does this make it absolute, final, or the only source of God's word and truth that ever has been given, or ever will be given?

    Why is the Spirit of Revelation, eternal Covenants, and Priesthood authority denied by most of Christianity and yet it is backbone of the entire Bible? Would not God reveal more on the subject, especially in these tumultuous latter days?

    Why would faith and works be required of all ancient peoples in the Bible, and yet many today say only grace alone saves? Why wouldn't we also have the power of the Priesthood and be required to do the works of Christ to truly follow Him as in ancient days? Is God changeable because Christ atoned for our sins that we are saved independent of our works?

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 6, 2013 7:40 a.m.

    EternalPerspective the Bible taken out of context.

    The KJV/3 Nephi Sermon on the Mount. LDS Scholar Dr. Larson finds 12 examples where JS copied the 1769 KJV errors.
    Mt 6:13 KJV and 3Nephi 13:13 Both have the doxology, For thine is he Kingdom and power and the glory forever amen. The KJV is based on 9th to 12th century texts. Earlier and better manuscripts do not contain the doxology. One example.

    RE: MrNirom1, the term "familiar spirit”,(defined)

    (LeGrand Richards, Value of the Holy Scriptures, Ensign May 1976). “when I read that book, I get the same spiritual uplift that I get when I read the New. Testament. ’Isn’t that what Isaiah meant when he said that it should have a familiar spirit?"

    ( Is 29:4 JST) “And thou(she) shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy(her) speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy(her) voice shall be, as of one that hath a “Familiar Spirit”, out of the ground, and thy(her) speech shall whisper out of the dust”. The inspired version makes 4 minor changes

  • EternalPerspective Eldersburg, MD
    Aug. 6, 2013 9:10 a.m.

    sharrona

    Scholarly knowledge of the scriptures from academic study and theologians who spent their lives searching for evidences of God's works, does not equate to a sure testimony of eternal truths and realities that can only be given by the Holy Ghost.

    KJV 1 Corinthians 1:26-29 says, "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence."

    William Tyndale said, "I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause the boy that drives the plow to know more of the scriptures than you!". As with Moses and brass serpant, the wise and learned are kept from God's truths today. They disbelieve just like the Pharisees of Jesus day.

  • A Scientist Provo, UT
    Aug. 6, 2013 9:26 a.m.

    kaparowitz wrote:

    "Sounds like you have a doubting mind that questions everything. To find the truth you first have to accept that you do not know the answer definitively. Then you must reach out and hope to find the answer."

    You presume to judge me, and your unrighteous judgment presumes that I receive(d) no answer because I doubted.

    After a quarter of a century of "reaching out", and being married to the best Mormon you would every meet, I can assure you: I doubt because I received no answer; not vice versa.

    But your response is common from members - they fault me, and condemn me rather than admit that Moroni's Challenge is flawed, and that good, worthy people do not see the world the same way they do.

    Instead, you judge me as having "fear of failure," "give up trying", and "come to the wrong conclusion."

    Again, your judgment is unrighteous, and therefore, your "well wishes" at the end of your comment are disingenuous.

    But I wish you a future filled with less self-complacency, less unrighteous judgment of others, and less arrogance.

    Good luck with that.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 6, 2013 10:20 a.m.

    "...very many customs...I have witnessed among them... appear to be decidedly Jewish; and many of them so decidedly so, that it would seem almost impossible, or at all events, exceedingly improbable, that two people in a state of nature should have hit upon them, and practiced them exactly alike".

    George Caitlin:Letters and Notes on the Manners, Customs, and conditions of North American Indians"

    Mr Caitlin lived among American natives over many years and painted hundreds of portraits of them.

    He referred here to the monotheistic beliefs of the natives, their separation into genders for worship, their sacrifices of firstfruits and the best male animal, their belief that they were a favored people, their belief that the good would live again in a glorious kingdom, immortality etc.

    "I have made this a subject of unceasing enquiry during all my travels, and from evry individual Indian wih whom I have conversed on the subject.... I have received evidence enough, as well as from their numerous and humble modes of worhsip, to convince the mind...of any man..."

    Mr Caitlin's notes were written from 1832-1839.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Aug. 6, 2013 12:43 p.m.

    The origins of indigenous peoples of pre-Columbian America was a mystery to Europeans who migrated to the New World from the early 1500s onward. So few pieces of the puzzle left it wide open to be imagined. Crude attempts to explain based on what seemed plausible were conjecture in the absence of known facts. But given the religious heritage of Europe, it shouldn’t be surprising to see an explanation that affirms Christianity’s providential destiny to bring the message of universal salvation to all mankind. That’s what was electrifying in the Book of Mormon history of Christian belief among ancestors of those regarded as heathens and savages in Joseph Smith’s time.

    The Book of Mormon gave the Americas a rich antiquity that paralleled Old World antiquity replete with the collapse of Nephite civilization coinciding with the fall of the Roman Empire and a subsequent descent into a dark age. The Book of Mormon is a Biblical parody with Mormon as a creative alter ego of Joseph Smith. It warrants wider appreciation as religious literature even as we continue learning more about the earliest Americans.

  • kvnsmnsn Springville, UT
    Aug. 6, 2013 12:48 p.m.

    A Scientist posted:

    =But your response is common from members - they fault me, and condemn me rather
    =than admit that Moroni's Challenge is flawed, and that good, worthy people do
    =not see the world the same way they do.

    How can Moroni's Challenge be flawed, in a world that a good God controls? When someone gets to the point that s/he is really ready to base the whole rest of that someone's life on _whatever_ answer God provides, and asks a question with intent to use God's answer as a certain foundation for that person's personal theology, how can a good God to anything _but_ answer that question? That God knows that if S/He doesn't answer then that someone has no way of every getting that certain foundation, so why in the world _wouldn't_ that God answer the question? If God doesn't respond immediately, then keep the question in the back of your mind until God does respond. What else can you do?

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Aug. 6, 2013 1:22 p.m.

    kvnsmnsn

    If Moroni's challenge wasn't flawed then people would not get very different answers on that same question. Not everybody who takes Moroni's challenge gets a positive answer that it is true. I know because I got the answer that it isn't. I did all the other things it says, was humble, had faith... if just came back as a no. That is why it is flawed.

  • Wastintime Los Angeles, CA
    Aug. 6, 2013 1:38 p.m.

    People around the world in virtually all walks of life have effectively taken Moroni's challenge (although not called that) by asking if their religions are true and woukd tell you they have received confirmation that their religions are true. How do we explain (or dismiss) that inconvenient fact?

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 6, 2013 3:16 p.m.

    @MrNirom1 ... Your voice will sound like a spirit speaking from the underworld; from the dust you will chirp as if muttering an Incantation(Is 29:4 NET)

    RE: EternalPerspective, the Holy Ghost/Spirit=(pneuma)same Greek word.
    The original Aof. #8 We believe in the Word of God recorded in the Bible; we also believe the Word of God recorded in the Book of Mormon, and in all other good books. See current #8. i.e..

    MS discoveries since the KJV have a much better understanding of the Sermon on the Mount. Greek MS 200 A.D. thru patristic early support, which leads to the original text. These are earlier and better texts of Matthews Sermon on the Mount. The BoM never takes us to a verifiable text in history.

    RE: the truth, connecting Moroni/BOM and Isaiah/prophecy:
    A Marvelous Work and Wonder, a Modern Translation. “Therefore I will take awesome vengeance on these hypocrites, and make their wisest counselors as fools.” (Is 29:14 LB),Not a prophecy about the Bom But God will punish the Jews for spiritual wickedness; He will remove their discernment from their hearts.. . Fulfilled in that they rejected Christ.

  • kvnsmnsn Springville, UT
    Aug. 6, 2013 5:21 p.m.

    Skeptic posted:

    =The BOM may be many things, but it is doubtful that it is history.

    I took a look at the definition of doubtful, and it said:

    1. of uncertain outcome or result.
    2. admitting of or causing doubt; uncertain; ambiguous.
    3. unsettled in opinion or belief; undecided; hesitating.
    4. of equivocal or questionable character: His tactics are highly doubtful.

    The first three definitions certainly fit. It's definitely possible to doubt that the Book of Mormon is history. But that doesn't mean that it's not history.

    It's also possible to doubt that the story of the Israelite exodus from Egypt is history. Once again that doesn't mean that exodus isn't history. I personally believe that both the Book of Mormon and the Book of Exodus tell true historical tales. Could I be wrong? Of course I could. But so could anyone who doesn't believe one of those two accounts are history.

  • G L W8 SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Aug. 7, 2013 6:14 a.m.

    Gildas, an additional observation: the bulk of the Book of Mormon story takes place in a very short time period: From Mosiah to the close of 3rd Nephi covers the period from 130 B.C. to 36 A.D. For those critical of the LDS position that American Indians descend from the peoples of this book, keep in mind it is impossible from a historical perspective and nearly impossible from an archaeological/anthropological perspective to either prove or disprove that thesis. Even a DNA analysis fails because we don't have sufficient evidence to know what peoples may have been on the continent at the time, may have come to the continent since, or if there may have been peoples here prior to the alleged arrival of the Jaredites. As to DNA markers, we can only speculate. To my knowledge, historical samples from the missing tribes of Israel circa 600 B.C. are non-existent. DNA relationships are easier to determine in the recent past.

  • Wastintime Los Angeles, CA
    Aug. 7, 2013 1:56 p.m.

    Regarding DNA evidence, the noose is tightening quickly. Native American genetic data has allowed scientists to account for ALL of the mtDNA Y-chromosome types in current Native Americans and trace the founding population back to individuals who migrated across the Bering Strait between 15-20k years ago.

    It is amusing to have witnessed the retreat of we Mormons from calling all Native Americans "Laminites" (as we did when I was growing up in SLC) to now having altered our printed materials and arguments to the fall back position that it can't be disproved that a few Jews may have once migrated here.

    But more importantly, what of my question regarding the millions of Muslim and other religious people in the world who have prayed sincerely and received confirmation that their religions are true? Why are we right and all of them wrong?

  • kvnsmnsn Springville, UT
    Aug. 7, 2013 2:29 p.m.

    Wastintime posted:

    =But more importantly, what of my question regarding the millions of Muslim and
    =other religious people in the world who have prayed sincerely and received
    =confirmation that their religions are true? Why are we right and all of them
    =wrong?

    My point is that if there is a good God who controls the universe and can answer prayer, and if one single person is willing to base the rest of that person's entire life on the answer that person gets from God, and asks God a question, that God will give that person an answer. Are you saying that "millions of Muslim and other religious people in the world" have gotten to the point where they are ready to base the whole rest of their lives on whatever answer God gives them, and then have asked God a question? If so, why do you think so?

  • zoar63 Mesa, AZ
    Aug. 7, 2013 3:28 p.m.

    @sharrona

    "Your voice will sound like a spirit speaking from the underworld; from the dust you will chirp as if muttering an Incantation(Is 29:4 NET)"

    I do not give too much credence to the NET version of the Bible It follows the Alexandrian Greek of Westcott and Hort and apparently it is causing a lot of controversy among some Christian believers who denounce it as perverting the scriptures. They even go so far to say that all modern versions are based on the works of Westcott and Hort and admonish true believing Christians to not use any modern versions including the Jehovah's Witness', New World Translation

    Now concerning the King James Version there are two kinds of manuscripts Accurate Copies They are the majority of Greek manuscripts which agree with each other and have been accepted by Bible believing Christians down through the centuries. It is from these manuscripts that the King James Bible was translated in 1611.

    Corrupted Copies: These manuscripts, many times, do not even agree with each other. These are the manuscripts on which Westcott and Hort and the modern versions rely so heavily

  • Wastintime Los Angeles, CA
    Aug. 7, 2013 4:03 p.m.

    "Are you saying that "millions of Muslim and other religious people in the world" have gotten to the point where they are ready to base the whole rest of their lives on whatever answer God gives them, and then have asked God a question? If so, why do you think so?"

  • Wastintime Los Angeles, CA
    Aug. 7, 2013 4:11 p.m.

    "Are you saying that "millions of Muslim and other religious people in the world" have gotten to the point where they are ready to base the whole rest of their lives on whatever answer God gives them, and then have asked God a question? If so, why do you think so?"

    Yes, I am absolutely saying that throughout history millions of people have been willing to base the rest of their lives on the answers that they received from God. Take Joan of Arc for instance. Was she wrong? It is beyond vain to assume that we are the only people who ever thought to ask God for an answer (and received an answer) I personally know people who feel strongly that they have received an answer regarding a different religion than ours. We see people sacrifice their lives for their beliefs constantly.

  • The Caravan Moves On Enid, OK
    Aug. 7, 2013 4:37 p.m.

    I think the 3 greatest challenges Mormon had were:

    1) Reading all the massive amounts of records, both secular and spiritual, often enough to be intimately familiar with what each of them discussed. That's a ton of reading to do, especially given his efforts as a military leader to help his people in their wars against their Lamanite enemies.

    2) Being in tune with the Holy Spirit well enough to actually pick what records, histories and doctrines/sermons to include in the book he was compiling. If that were me, I'd be paranoid I'd not include something the Lord would want me to.

    3) Writing/engraving all the characters that comprised his language onto plates of metal. How many tens of thousands of characters did it take? My hands get sore just thinking about it.

    Many of you here don't believe as I do. Fine. That is your right.

    However, to me, Mormon is a giant among men and a true hero. Like his son, Moroni said, someday you will meet Mormon yourself and the Savior will say, "Did I not declare unto you my words by this man?"

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 7, 2013 5:16 p.m.

    RE: zoar63, See FAIRLDS article Familiar spirit. “The contemporary use of familiar is as an adjective, derived from the Latin familiaris.”?

    "familiar spirit” (Is 29:4 Latin vulgate) and thy voice shall be from the earth like that of the “pythonis”, and out of the earth thy speech shall mutter. i.e..

    Acts 16:16 And it came to pass , as we went to prayer a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination= (python,Greek #4436) met us which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying.

    In Greek mythology the name of the Pythian serpent or dragon that dwelt in the region of Pytho at the foot of Parnassus in Phocis, and was said to have guarded the oracle at Delphi and been slain by Apollo. 2. a spirit of divination.

    RE: FAIR quote NET, Use of "familiar spirit" in Isaiah, The New English Translation (NET) Bible translation renders this verse as "Your voice will sound like a spirit speaking from the underworld."
    [ except they forget] “ from the dust you will chirp as if muttering an Incantation(Is 29:4 NET)"