Keep in mind that good Mormons do not drink tea. So they would be excluded from
the set of "honest" people in Utah. Try setting up a chocolate milk
Since a good percentage of people in this state doesn't drink tea,
it's harder to get an overall accurate picture. Interesting idea
nevertheless.The other issue is the placement of these kiosk.But that's why it's non-scientific.
This experiment excluded all active, Temple recommend holding members of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as they do not drink tea. It would
be interesting if they would repeat the experiment with something like lemonade.
So, this experiment gives us an unscientific look at how honest tea drinkers
are. If you want a more representative sampling of the overall population, use
bags of M&Ms.
Interesting - perhaps it is accurate to find some correlation between
tea-drinking and dishonesty in Utah. Who exactly would this survey be selecting?
Yeah put it in SLC. Great idea for an experiment about honesty. Try the same
thing in Provo and see what you get.
Location, location, location.Downtown SLC is not reflective of Utah.
I have another theory. The first time I saw Honest T lemonade I thought that I
would try it. It was the most disgusting beverage I had tried that claimed to
be lemonade. Another guy at the table laughed and said the same about the one
time he tried it. With an easy way to ask for your money back, my guess is that
some frugal participants asked for their money back and received it. Warning,
stay away from Honest T lemonade. Just sayin. Utah being one of the least
honest states with 88 percent leaving money isn't too bad, I am shocked
that anyone felt obligated to pay after tasting.
The only way to improve the value of this experiment would be to set up an
alcohol kiosk on Temple Square.I understand that teas is the
company's product. But they have to take local preferences into account.
That's right, of course it's not the Good Mormons. They don't
drink tea. But you know the old joke about why you take two Mormons fishing with
The point is not about good Mormons vs. bad Mormons or Mormons vs. non-Mormons.
But the truth is, this experiment excluded a significant portion of the Utah
population. Yes, it was an unscientific poll, and it's not that big of a
deal. It's just that I'd be curious to see what the
results were with a different drink.
I lived in upstate NY for several years. The first time I saw an unmanned honey
kiosk sitting by the side of the road I thought I was hallucinating. As we
stopped we also saw that the vendor had placed stacks of coins by their
denomination so that customers could make their own change. I had never seen
anything like that nor have I ever since. A few years ago when I was back
visiting the same area I had the good fortune of talking to the owner as he was
present that day. We discussed his kiosk and I asked him if he had lost money.
He admitted that he had but it was worth more to him to place his trust in the
passers by. Repeat offenders were asked not to return. (He could see his
kiosk from his home some 50 yards away.) And his honey was amazing! Different
colors, different flavors, with no added ingredients. Good stuff!
Utah is well known for its financial fraud schemes, so this doesn't
surprise me. Those people who think that the Provo area is more honest than SLC
better think again. A larger number of Ponzi schemes were found to be in Utah
The success of Ponzi schemes in Utah is evidence FOR Utah being an overall
honest state. A Ponzi scheme requires the victims to be very trusting in order
for the scheme to work. I think there is a high correlation between people who
are trusting and people who are honest.
Most states seem to be between 85 and 95%. Depending on how many beverages they
had at each stand, it might not even be all that statistically significant a
difference between the city ranked 40th and the city (since it's picking
one isolated location in the state I think the use of city rather than state is
more accurate) ranked 10th.
The 2013 "experiment" results don't correspond with those reported
for a similar "experiment" in Salt Lake City in 2012, where 100% of the
participants were "honest". Perhaps the experimental parameters were
changed. Perhaps the sample size was insufficient.In any case, I
tend to be rather suspicious of anyone trying to market tea products in Utah,
with "honesty", or on any other basis.
Lets leave the LDS Church out of this discussion, I feel bad of the findings
though non scientific. This show our society at its worse no mater what the
product or the location of the test. My question is were there other people near
by that saw the theft and said or did nothing? I always hate to see the results
of these kind of tests, they say a lot about our society no matter what the
Yes, a more interesting experiment for UT would've been with a different
product. However, it is ridiculous to put forth the
proposition that no "active Temple attending" Mormons don't lie or
cheat. (why do we need locks for the lockers?)I remember the
experiments in "Tipping Point" conducted at corporations which showed
the higher up one was, the more dishonesty there was.
This study does miss a lot of crucial facts. It is based on percentages-which if
anyone has taken a statistics class, they can tell you that numbers are easily
distorted. Second, location-comparing apples to apples is essential for viable
data. Third, as many have mentioned, a large portion of this state has moral
issues with the actual drink.However, it does show interesting and
even encouraging results nationwide as far as integrity of individuals.
Also, for those who think Provo is next to heaven, think again. As a former
manager of a restaurant in Provo near BYU, I can say that every September, we
had to purchase new silverware in mass due to theft. Yes, our silverware was
taken right after fall semester began. I might have thought it to be a
coincidence had it not happened for 8 years in a row.
Funny to me how many people are justifying Utah's low ranking with,
"Well that's not fair,it didn't test the 'good' Mormons
because we don't drink tea!".
Most Mormons from Utah I've encountered think that cold green tea
isn't against the word of wisdom.
I know many temple card carrying members of the LDS church that thin noting of
picking up and drinking a iced tea. Many LDS members have decided iced tea and
tea in general is not the same as drinking coffee the same way they don't
think twice about drinking caffeinated sodas. I was actually shocked so many
people paid as my experience since moving to Utah is that many Utahans are very
dishonest in their dealings with others.
@NCPanther - I suggest you avoid applying for a job conducting polls. It's
funny to me how someone could have so little understanding of polling and
statistics, and of how something so obvious renders the results completely
meaningless.This experiment left out 100% of practicing Mormons with
Word of Wisdom integrity. Whether those with the integrity to avoid the tea
would lack the integrity to pay for something they would drink, like lemonade,
cannot be determined from this experiment. Maybe all such Mormons would steal
lemonade, but avoid tea. Maybe none of them would steal the lemonade and
significantly improve Utah's ranking. Everybody might have an
opinion, but experiments aren't usually intended to measure opinions.
Nobody really knows. What is certain is that without those people included in
the sample, in any Utah location, the results are totally meaningless as a
representation of Utahns. Even as an unscientific experiment, it tells us
nothing, and perhaps draws totally inaccurate findings about Utahns.Just because we point out the sampling was not fair, does not necessarily mean
we have chips on our shoulders. This experiment simply wasn't fair as a
matter of basic statistical procedure.Simple statistics 101 and
I wonder how good mormons can pass up cold tea, a natural beverage, in favor of
Diet Coke or Pepsi, which contain more caffeine and lots of chemicals? I had
read that hot beverages were prohibited.Someone wrote recently that the
lds church's huge financial interest in Pepsi made drinking it OK. Does
this have truth, or was it malicious?
Chocolate has caffeine...lots of it. Several herbal teas are made without the
use of caffeine. Take at look at your practices and read ingredients.
Ya know whoever authored this article was one smart cookie. Look at all these
responses it is so totally insignificant to the real world and to the rest of
our lives, but because they jabbed at us Mormons we all had to read the article
and comment. Bravo deseretnews you got me this time.Also I am a
Mormon and I think that my fellow believers are just as if not more messed up
than everybody else in the world. If you believe in the Restoration then you
believe in the Priesthood which allows things like the Gift of the Holy Ghost to
work in you. The Bible and BOM clearly teach that all good comes from christ and
that mankind is really self destructive(evil). I think it is because we hardly
ever teach about grace, that really causes a lot of disconnect between us and
other christians and rightfully so.
I know of a number of Mormons who don't exactly abide by the no caffeine,
no soda, no tea rule, so considering the most of the State is Mormon, I think
its safe to say the the Mormon population is well represented in this sample.
@tabuno - I think it's safe to say you are woefully ignorant about
representative sampling. No one in my family drinks tea, and I really don't
think we're out of the ordinary LDS people at all. Whether some Mormons
drink tea is not the issue. The fact is that a significant portion of Utahns
are practicing Mormons, and a very significant portion of practicing Mormons do
in fact avoid drinking tea. Therefore the sample excludes a significant portion
of the population and is completely unreliable as an indicator of Utahns'
tabuno - there has never been a "no caffeine, no soda" rule in the LDS
church, and there are plenty of us who abide by the "no tea" rule, even
if some don't. Perhaps you don't know as much about Mormon rules or
sampling as you think.
Sounds like we are getting into a Word of Wisdom debate. For whatever reasons,
the Church leadership has left specifics about Word of Wisdom vague. Some think
caffeine is the issue, others don't. Some say "hot drinks" is the
issue, therefore hot chocolate is not ok, but iced tea is. Sometimes I wish
they would be more specific. Don't know about now, but about 10 years ago
I noticed that in the L.A. Temple cafeteria they served de-caffeinated cola
drinks. Still, I'm never asked specifics about if I obey the Word of
Wisdom, only if I do. It's up to me to be honest or not.
Hey, folks!Forget all the caffeine debate. HonesTea company has many
non-caffeinated beverages. Nothing in that article states that they only offered
caffeinated drinks in their experiment -- so the Mormon-non-Mormon debate is
irrelevant.(Incidentally, though I'm not Mormon I also
don't drink caffeine. So I pay attention to such things.)I'm wondering where TN came in on their honesty scale. I'm betting
it was top-25%, but definitely top-half. I'll have to look that up.
Sure enough -- TN tied for fifth overall, with an honesty rating of 98%.Did I peg it, or what? My state has problems, no doubt --
still, there are many things to love about it. :-)
And again, we have locked lockers in the Temple dressing rooms for----???? So
the Church Mice don't steal our stuff?
What was the statistical standard error +- 3% or 4%? When the difference
between the states is within a standard error, it is impossible to say one is
more honest than another. Sloppy research.
@ LetsDebate, woah calm down. I thought it was funny how defensive everyone was
getting over a completely ridiculous poll, you included. I think this is an
interesting poll but what is more interesting is how offended people seemed to
be and how defensive people got talking about "good" mormons and
"bad" mormons...seems absurd.
@NCPanther - I think it's funny that your first post says nothing about
"Utah's low ranking" being ridiculous, but only the defensiveness
of those who point out the obvious flaw in the experiment. Any reasonable
person would infer from your original post that you thought any criticism of the
experiment was merely sour grapes. Now that your polling acumen has been
wasted, the experiment itself is suddenly obviously ridiculous. If the
experiment is so ridiculous, why then is it funny, or in the least bit strange,
that we would try to defend the honor of the good citizens of Utah? Did anyone cry for a lawsuit, or suggest a boycott of the teamaker, or call
for protests, or use incendiary language? Merely pointing out the flaw of this
experiment is so ridiculously defensive as to be funny to you? I mean really -
whoa, calm down.
@LetsDebate --" Merely pointing out the flaw of this experiment
is so ridiculously defensive as to be funny to you? "Well, for
one thing -- that supposed "flaw" wasn't actually a flaw at all --
which I already pointed out.It's easy to find video of
HonestTea employees conducting this experiment online -- just Google it.
You'll see that the kiosk they set up had many varieties of drinks
available to choose from. Therefore there would not be any reason for
"good" Mormons to avoid purchasing the drinks.No, the
experiment is still not scientific -- but it is pretty funny. Also,
I *think* -- I haven't verified it -- that the company has done the same
experiment in previous years. If they get comparable results over multiple
years, then the results WOULD get more significant. I might look that up one of
@ContrariusFrom the article, the company set up "...unmanned
stations with bottles of tea labeled for $1."There is no
caffeine debate. How do we get people to understand that the LDS church HAS NO
CAFFEINE PROHIBITION! They do ask members to abstain from tea and coffee, but
there is no explicit or implied prohibition against Mt. Dew, Coca Cola, Pepsi,
Dr. Pepper, any other caffeinated soda, hot chocolate, chocolate candy bars,
5-Hour Energy Drink, Extra-Strength Tylenol, and many other caffeinated
products. We are encouraged to "pay attention" to what we ingest, as
you wisely do, and many of us (me included) are lacking in that regard.There is only a "caffeine debate" among a few holier-than-thou members
who have taken it upon themselves to add upon General Authorities'
expressed interpretation of the Word of Wisdom, and among people who are
legitimately and innocently ignorant of LDS doctrine, and among dishonest
anti-Mormons who will use any concept - real or manufactured - to depict LDS
people as hypocrites.It's not about the caffeine. And, the
article clearly states tea was being offered.
@ LetsDebate, I think this poll is ridiculous because we have no real numbers
from this article, only percentages. Any poll done with only percentages is
ridiculous. Numbers are way more important than percentages as I'm sure
you are aware. I do find this funny because a lot of people here
seem to think they live in a place where everyone one is honest and good all the
time and this is just ironic to me, I'm sorry if that is offensive to you.
"defend the honor of the good citizens of Utah" I'm
pretty sure the citizens of Utah will be just fine. I know people have lots of
different expereinces where they live and I'm sure this is going to stir up
something nasty but, in my own personal expereinces "the good citizens of
Utah" could use a reminder about what it means to be "good" and how
they should treat others.
Contrarius - people were defensive about the claimed results based on the
content of the article, which draws the conclusion that Utahns are less honest
than people from New York and most other states, based on an experiment wherein
tea was offered at unmanned kiosks. If other drinks were also available, this
may add some credibility to the experiment, but wasn't raised in the
article. Even one major flaw in such an unscientific experiment
(and this had more than one) renders the conclusion drawn by the DN staff
ridiculously unfounded and worthy of the mild defense put up by many commenters.
You know, tobacco shops sell some products that would not violate any LDS
standards, but the vast majority of practicing Mormons still wouldn't
consider going there to buy bubble gum or a soda.I love these kinds
of experiments, and think they're funny as well. But, I think many of us
wonder why it's so important for some people to defend the
experiment's silly conclusion that in Utah we're less honest than
elsewhere. In an honest-to-goodness real experiment on honesty, I think Utah
could accept a challenge from anywhere.
@DSB --"From the article, the company set up "...unmanned
stations with bottles of tea labeled for $1."And, of course,
reporters always get all their details right.Right?;-)If you watch any of the videos of the experiment, it's
quite obvious what they were actually offering -- namely, their entire product
line. A picture's worth a thousand words, and all that."the
LDS church HAS NO CAFFEINE PROHIBITION!"Hey, I've got no
quibbles with living caffeine-free. When I was living in SLC, I absolutely loved
that I could get caffeine-free sodas (relax, they were both caffeine-free and
sugar free) everywhere I went. :-)
@cargirl, for my part, the keys on the lockers in the temple dressing rooms are
critical for1. Identifying which lockers are occupied without having
to open the doors.2. Helping me to remember which locker I used when
I'm done.There are maybe other ways to accomplish these without
locking the doors. I habitually leave my empty clothing bag unlocked on the top
of the locker, as it doesn't fit well inside. Have never worried it would