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Justice Department wants Christian home-schoolers deported in name of tolerance

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  • OHBU Columbus, OH
    July 4, 2013 12:49 p.m.

    Sure sounds like these people are going out of their way to be problematic. When one can easily and legally move to another country nearby, why go to all the trouble of seeking asylum and risking deportation to be in the US? Sounds less like they're fleeing persecution, and more like they're using this as an excuse to bypass regular immigration requirements.

  • Lightbearer Brigham City, UT
    July 4, 2013 1:12 p.m.

    One very good reason for children to be educated in public schools is so that they will learn things their parents refuse to teach them.

  • Kathy. Iowa, Iowa
    July 4, 2013 1:18 p.m.

    Just curious why these people would not be consider illegal immigrants if they decide to overstay their visa.

  • DanO Mission Viejo, CA
    July 4, 2013 1:52 p.m.

    It clearly states they can send their kids to a religious school. I fail to see why they think they need special rights in their own country and if they can't get them there, they'll come here. The issue is about making sure the kids go to an accredited school to get a well-rounded education. It's nothing to do with an alleged religious persecution.

  • The Scientist Provo, UT
    July 4, 2013 1:55 p.m.

    The US Justice Department has no authority over German laws, and the interpretations in this case are rational -- there is no evidence the DOJ is motivated by religious prejudice in any way whatsoever.

    Blaming the DOJ and implying the DOJ has some bias against religion is not only misleading, but very bad, sensationalistic, and inaccurate journalism.

  • I know it. I Live it. I Love it. Salt Lake City, UT
    July 4, 2013 2:33 p.m.

    Germany has lost a great deal of my respect. I loved visiting and planned to again in the not-so-distant future

    So...

    Germany has just lost a lot of my respect. I loved visiting and planned to again in the not-so-distant future. I think I'm making a change of plans.

    Forcing other people to listen to your opinions IS NOT conducive of a free government or people. For a country that preaches how far they've come from a dark past, they certainly are embracing principles that afford them no credibility.

    Until they tolerate people's rights to rear their children according to their God-given right, I refuse to set foot in their country again.

    Governments don't raise children. Governments SHOULDN'T raise children.

    It's evil and wrong.

  • Brotherly Kindness SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    July 4, 2013 2:55 p.m.

    Why is it that the Obama administration grudgingly deports only a meager handful of the most dangerous and despicable illegal aliens -- even going so far as to release some illegal aliens convicted of felonies from jail or detention to do as they please, but considers it worth the taxpayers' money to fight the petty case for deportation of one solitary Christian family that wants to carry out its parental duty to educate its children, with the almost sure knowledge that children will be snatched from their parents as soon as they are dumped back on their native land?

    I recall that a few people around here seem to think that keep illegal aliens with their children is the right thing to do, but that doesn't apply to Christians seeking asylum.

    If it is true they could move to another European country to avoid persecution, does that change the fact that Obama's administration welcomes illegal aliens with open arms and yet actively fights for the deportation of Christians refugees who want to move here?

    Can you say favoritism and double standard? Why do you think Obama does that? I think I know the answer.

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    July 4, 2013 3:01 p.m.

    Here's another case of horrendous religious persecution: A Wisconsin couple was convicted of homicide because instead of taking their ailing daughter to get medical attention, they prayed, instead, and the child eventually died of undiagnosed diabetes. (They told the police that God would bring their daughter back to life, before the police arrested them. The conviction was upheld by an appeals court.)

    Let's say this Wisconsin couple took off to Germany, claimed religious persecution and sought asylum? Evidently, the German government would be guilty of religious persecution if they insisted the couple needed to return to the US, or something like that, according to this article.

    Avoiding medical treatment for an ailing or injured child might have been legal 100 years ago, as society previously felt whatever happened inside a family was the family's business. The first cases of child abuse were tried using laws against animal cruelty, until society came around to the notion that children have rights, too. Does this mean families have lost freedom?

    Back to these Germans, why don't they go back to Germany, and open a private religious school themselves? This article is silly.

  • Kellie Orem, UT
    July 4, 2013 3:03 p.m.

    The DOJ is purposely overlooking "Germany's ban on home-schooling which is motivated by the desire to suppress religious and philosophical parallel societies". That alone qualifies this family for asylum.

  • Mr.Glass Salt Lake City, UT
    July 4, 2013 3:17 p.m.

    Many religious folks like home schooling because it provides an opportunity to have complete control over their children. Instead of teaching children about evolution by natural selection, for example, parents will teach their children that evolution is non-sense and that the earth is 6,000 years old, and that dogs are not descendent of wolves, among other things. Is this the kind of religious freedom people like to celebrate? Where do we draw the line of religious freedom?

    Some parents won't take their children to the hospital when doing so will save their lives because they believe in the power of prayer and think that having a doctor take care of the problem is a betrayal of faith. Such parents have been sentenced to prison when their children die, and that's a good thing.

    I do not believe parents should have total control of their children's education. Doing so would produce a lot of ignorant children who know nothing about science.

    Some people want the freedom to impose ignorance and hatred in their children in the name of religion. Is this really freedom?

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    July 4, 2013 3:43 p.m.

    It's interesting that the Obama administration is trying to find a way to allow millions of uneducated, unskilled Hispanic illegal immigrants to obtain amnesty to stay here, while not allowing a family like this to continue living here. It could be that they were determined to be likely Republican voters.

  • Viva la Migra American Fork, UT
    July 4, 2013 3:49 p.m.

    I thought we were suspending deportations of non-criminal immigrants while Congress tries to push through another amnesty... I guess evangelical Germans wouldn't be as likely to vote for Democrats as Catholic Mexicans, so they need to go.

  • KJB1 Eugene, OR
    July 4, 2013 3:55 p.m.

    Way to stack the title and opening paragraph, guys. Nothing like looking for another excuse to play the noble-religion-and-evil-liberals card.

  • Lehicoug Lehi, UT
    July 4, 2013 3:56 p.m.

    HSDLA's Michael Farris says, "The German goal is to prohibit people who think differently from the government (on religious or philosophical grounds) from growing and developing into a force in society. It is thought control. It is belief control. It is totalitarianism dressed up in politically correct lingo." Enter the current Administration and DOJ: they are in agreement; they have no problem banning homeschooling. This is the position of our government at the very highest level. Our government argued that the family isn't experiencing religious discrimination because they couldn't prove all home-schoolers were religious and that not all Christians believe in being home-schooled. They argued there is no fundamental liberty to being home-schooled. So long as the government bans homeschooling broadly and equally, there is no violation of your rights. Our current Administration seems to have problems understanding religious freedom is an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT. Is anyone surprised? They think of us only in terms of groups and factions. So, I suppose as someone said above, there is no evidence the DOJ is motivated by religious prejudice in any way whatsoever. That's because the DOJ doesn't even understand what religious rights are.

  • Wilf 55 SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    July 4, 2013 4:05 p.m.

    Wise Germany. The German system is "to bring people of differing views together to learn from each other and to learn to accept those whose views differ from their own." If one reads some comments from Americans about "marxist Obama" and that "the US Constitution is being replacesd with a communist one", it is clear the importance of schools to develop wisdom and build a tolerant society is paramount.

    Please, not another family in the U.S. with obsession and intolerance.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    July 4, 2013 4:13 p.m.

    "Religion Under Attack" a regular feature of DN.

    "Justice Department wants Christian home-schoolers deported in name of tolerance"

    What an inflammatory and misleading headline.

    "The Department of Justice says the German law was created to bring "people of differing views together to learn from each other and to learn to accept those whose views differ from their own. The goal in Germany is for an 'open, pluralistic society.' Teaching tolerance to children of all backgrounds helps to develop the ability to interact as a fully functioning citizen of Germany."

    Uhh, DOJ attorneys were paraphrsing German courts defense of their own laws requiring all students to attend school.
    The attorney for the plaintiffs tried to make the case the parents were subject to religious persecution. The DOJ upheld the decision of the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals.

    What does the U.S. have to gain by deciding, without evidence, that Germany engages in religious persecution?

  • Orwell Huxley Salt Lake City, UT
    July 4, 2013 4:20 p.m.

    Lightbearer: Yours is a reasonable point. On the other side of the coin, however, my daughter is in a class where she has been required to read a book wherein the main theme is sex. Your position is against those who homeschool because they don't want certain things taught to their kids. But given that there are arguments that are more than reasonable against teenagers having sex, there are also reasonable arguments to be made against being required to deal with subject matter that can give a distorted view of sexuality before they are in healthy adult relationships.

    In case you think I am exaggerating the effects a book can have, I read the same book as a teenager, on the recommendation of a well-meaning teacher. I can trace the effects of that book and another like it to a spectacularly unhealthy and immature preoccupation with sex as a young adult, which led to ending up with the wrong girl and making life miserable for me, her, and a subsequent child for years to come.

  • gigi_gorgeous New York, NY
    July 4, 2013 4:42 p.m.

    I was Homeschooled using a Christian curriculum.....we were conservative, but I certainly obtained worldly views regarding many subjects. Additionally, I graduated from Columbia with honours. The public school system in the US was designed to create factory workers, who will follow orders. No room for critical thinking or creativity. I, too, will Homeschool my children, to give them the best education possible, without the liberal propaganda.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    July 4, 2013 4:47 p.m.

    While some parents home school their children as a bulwark against the dangers of a "secular society,"
    fundamentalist home-schooling can be detrimental to a civil society for example when considering what religious fundamentalist schools might teach about history in Middle Eastern Countries.

  • Bomar Roberts, ID
    July 4, 2013 5:19 p.m.

    May I say to all of you naysayers that there are two undeniable facts to this case. First, they should have gone to Mexico and entered the USA illegally and they would be protected and could commit other sundry crimes and still be able to remain in the country. Second, those who say parents can't be responsible for their children's education because they might not teach them the correct curriculum. The fact is that home schooled students score dramatically better than those in the public schools. If common core is implemented there will be a big increase in home schooling for parents who are concerned with the "Pap" being taught in the public schools.

  • utah1966 broomfield, CO
    July 4, 2013 5:19 p.m.

    "In 2010, the family was granted asylum. The district judge who made that decision said, according to the New York Times, that the German policy was "utterly repellent to everything we believe as Americans." Seems fair considering reasons government used in giving the Boston Marathon bombers and family refuge, citizenship for the "boys" and $100,000s in welfare. We can give Amnesty to 11 Million aliens in our country illegally, but no refuge for one family, who want freedom of thought - like all Americans have?

  • byufootballrocks Herndon, VA
    July 4, 2013 6:29 p.m.

    Homeschooling is one of the great liberators of our youth. This once "wave of the future" is now becoming mainstream in the US. It's because of the benefits.

    Homeschoolers generally have been proven to score better on standardized college testing. They are highly sought after by major universities, some of which have admissions department personnel devoted exclusively to encouraging their enrollment.

    Isn't it great there is an option here for parents, where their children are not lost academically and socially amid the thundering herd of immature peers and petty social climbing and competitiveness of public school?

    They thrive in an atmosphere of love and intelligent encouragement. They read and work math way beyond their grade level. They have opportunities to develop talents and explore the world in ways of which public school only dreams.

    Despite the myths, they develop very strong socially and are spared the early exposure to drugs, alcohol, violence, bullying, pre-marital sex, and secular humanism that dominates the "Time-Warner" peer culture of public school life.

    Parents get quality time with their children in a daily schedule that is family-centered and not public-school-centered.

    There are many more advantages.

  • Jim Mesa, Az
    July 4, 2013 7:20 p.m.

    Interesting, today we celebrate the 4th of July which gave us independence and we want to send some one back to an environment where they can't practice their freedoms. Sounds similar doesn't it.

  • VickieB SLC, UT
    July 4, 2013 8:05 p.m.

    I guess they are not brown enough for this administration. Giving people amnesty, and waivers from deportation, makes this look silly. Equal justice under the law?

  • moniker lewinsky Taylorsville, UT
    July 4, 2013 8:12 p.m.

    So let me see if I understand: White people who are trying to avoid having their kids taught science in school are more sympathetic than brown people trying to make money to feed their children. Am I close?

  • Janet Ontario, OR
    July 4, 2013 9:22 p.m.

    Some random-yet-relevant thoughts: My experience as a college instructor was that home-schooled students were great test takers and knew their 3R's quite well, but they often had difficulty with critical thinking and lacked an appreciation of diverse viewpoints. Anyone who understands anything about current immigration laws knows that a German family would have a much easier time legally immigrating to the U.S. than a Mexican family. I wonder how many millions of people would like to come to the U.S. as "refugees" from policies they don't agree with in their home countries. Again, this family could easily have moved next door to a country that tolerates home-schooling.

  • abtrumpet Provo, UT
    July 4, 2013 9:34 p.m.

    I may be mistaken, but I thought the original purpose of this country was to protect individual freedoms. Back then, the kings felt they had a "divine" commission and so you did what they said or suffered. The US Constitution was created to protect these freedoms. Government is there to protect them: whether they succeed or not, a government can never create freedoms. The danger is that our liberal government has gotten so arrogant that they feel they are to be the "moral guides", when in fact that is not their purpose
    . I can teach my children what I choose to; the government should protect that right, not decide that they know better than me how my children should be taught. Our current administration couldn't care less about the personal freedoms of those who disagree with them.

  • RichardB Murray, UT
    July 4, 2013 10:35 p.m.

    Disturning that this amnesty seems to be for everyone except Europeans. Their excuse is not an excuse, as others have said, they had other options.

    They should of claimed it was no worse than speeding, that we stole this land, that it was their right to come here, that we were breaking up families, that they are good hard working people. They might of had a chance.

  • Wisconsin Moderate GREENDALE, WI
    July 4, 2013 10:35 p.m.

    This is a non-story with an inflammatory headline. Shame on Deseret News.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    July 4, 2013 11:24 p.m.

    The near constant fear-mongering by DN about a "war" against religion is a powerful, yet divisive tool which ultimately will turn more people against organized religion.

    I would expect a church-owned paper, instead, to have a goal of educating and bridging the divide.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    July 5, 2013 12:30 a.m.

    I say let them stay, but these folks need to learn that differing viewpoints do exist and a good way to raise your kids is to explain this to them along with your own beliefs.

  • Maudine SLC, UT
    July 5, 2013 12:44 a.m.

    I have a friend with a debilitating chronic illness. Marajuana is very effective in treating her symptoms - it is, however, illegal in the state where my friend lives. She could use it anyway, but she would risk being arrested and having her children taken away from her.

    She cannot apply for asylum in a country where marajuana is legal, because her disagreement with and violation of the law is not persecution.

    This family is not being persecuted for their beliefs - they are being prosecuted for violating the law.

    How interesting that so many posters think these law breakers should be allowed to stay here. Would they be as willing to accept them if they were Muslims who wanted to homeschool their children?

  • EnglishAlan Rugeley, Staffs
    July 5, 2013 1:03 a.m.

    One of my friends was being transferred to Germany with his work. He has a son that has special educational needs, and has classroom assistance here in England. They checked out the schools in Germany, and were told this does not happen in Germany. The wife of my friend is a qualified school-teacher, and they asked if she could go into the school, and help out on a voluntary basis for when their son struggled. Again it was a no-no. They therefore asked if this qualified teacher could home educate her son, which is totally legal here in England. The answer was that this would infringe on the human rights of the child, as he would not have the freedom to mingle with other children of his own age-group. Anyone who has ever been around children knows how any child that is "different" gets treated by their peers. (I guess they think that a child being bullied by his peers does not impinge on his human rights.) The job offer was not taken up.

    In a civilised society there should surely be the right to home-educate if the parents feel this is best for their child.

  • ParkCityAggie Park City, Ut
    July 5, 2013 1:48 a.m.

    @gigi - "without liberal propaganda"? Please cite what you think is liberal propaganda coming from the public school system.

  • TA1 Alexandria, VA
    July 5, 2013 5:48 a.m.

    This is an issue that the family needs to resolve in Germany - loss of life is not at stake. If a parallel issue were to arise in the US - in my opinion we would adhere to our laws just as Germany has adhered to theirs.

  • Albert Maslar CPA (Retired) Absecon, NJ
    July 5, 2013 6:19 a.m.

    DOJ has more important things to do than deport home-schooler immigrants that have already been granted entry and asylum into the US. DOJ ignores its duty to investigate the mounting scandals of the Precedent and prosecute themselves for conduct unbecoming for Americans. DOJ actually has blood on its hands but all that is heard is a resounding silence. Of particular note is the fact that the DOJ does nothing about illegal immigrants that continually break and flout laws, drive under the influence that results in fatalities, but those lawbreakers are protected by government law and Constitution breakers, and and allowed to stay in the US, though never having been granted asylum of any kind as has this family of home-schoolers. The innocent will be punished.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    July 5, 2013 8:03 a.m.

    Look only as far as the madrassas run by Muslim extremists to see why public schools may be a good thing.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    July 5, 2013 8:32 a.m.

    Nothing like stirring the pot with hyperbole to keep the religious sense of victimhood alive.

  • mohokat Ogden, UT
    July 5, 2013 8:44 a.m.

    Long live the DOJ who under Eric Holder has become the U.S. Governments Mickey Mouse Club.

  • M. Butler Brooklyn, NY
    July 5, 2013 8:49 a.m.

    Whatever one thinks of home-schooling, this article is pitifully wrong on both the substance of asylum law and the process of applying for asylum (and pursuing that claim in immigration court. It shouldn't be that hard for this reporter (who claims to have a law degree) to actually read the court's decision, or to call a lawyer who practices immigration law and ask for an explanation.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    July 5, 2013 9:01 a.m.

    The first right that we, the people, demanded to see in writing before allowing the Constitution to be ratified was freedom from governmental interference in religion. That is the most important freedom that we have, given its placement in the Bill of Rights.

    Is it any wonder that liberal judges would reject God and His preeminent place in our hearts and in our homes? Is it any wonder that liberal judges would destroy a family by denying them the right to worship God according to the dictates of their conscience and to teach their own children in their own home? Is it any wonder that liberal judges would send that family back to a country that teaches that we crawled out of the ooze and that the order found all around us has nothing to do with a creator or with a creation?

    Not only are United States judges at fault, but those judges want to strip that family of its freedom and return the family to Germany.
    Is it any wonder that Germany demands full compliance from its citizens - including how and what parents teach their children? Germany's history shows that war has taught it nothing about liberty.

  • Say No to BO Mapleton, UT
    July 5, 2013 9:21 a.m.

    Before we grant asylum from Germany (a ridiculous concept for all but Jimmy Carter) we need to explore the timeline for this family.
    Just exactly what was their status upon arrival here? Tourists? Students? Work permit?
    At what point did they seek asylum? My understanding is that they were here for a couple of years.
    Then they were granted asylum.
    Later the DOJ ruled that fleeing home school rules in Germany is not a cause to grant asylum.
    With all the dangerous places around the world and the limited number of asylum and refugee visas, it seems foolish to grant one to this family.
    We see pity pieces in the newspaper all the time of a family from Mexico or Argentina who cannot go home for fear of being killed on their return.
    And yet we are sending missionaries there and building temples in those countries. Get real.

  • Yankee Poughkeepsie, NY
    July 5, 2013 9:48 a.m.

    It is amazing to me that we are watching the government sit idly by as illegals surge through this country to avail themselves of the fiscal benefits; but law abiding practicing Christians who actually applied for residency are now being rejected by bureaucrats. This is Isaiah 5:20-21 in action.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    July 5, 2013 10:09 a.m.

    That deferred action thing some of you have mentioned that protects illegal immigrants from being deported... that only applies to Dreamers (specifically children brought here at a young age) so it would only apply to the children of the German family, not the parents. It's not a race/ethnicity thing.

    Secondly, Obama has deported more illegal immigrants any other previous president (if we look at single terms, obviously 8 years of Bush deported more than 5 years of Obama but Obama's first term deported more than any other term).

    A lot of you sure like complaining about Hispanic illegal immigrants but are just fine with this white illegal immigrant family...

  • jthompson Austin, TX
    July 5, 2013 10:13 a.m.

    I've lived in Germany and while I don't necessarily agree with their homeschooling law I can understand why they have it. First, by and large Germans really are an orderly, rule-following society. They are also more willing than Americans to sacrifice some freedoms for the good of society. And finally, they are definitely scarred by their Nazi past and are determined to break from it. With those things in mind:

    1. Germans think children should be taught by certified, qualified teachers. The idea of a possibly uneducated parent being responsible for a child's successful education is rather ridiculous to them. (While some people may do a good job, other won't.)

    2. Germans are leery of people who want to separate their children from the mainstream culture. The DOJ did a good job explaining the German mentality on this.

    2. Similarly, while some commenters criticized the Germans' desire to suppress "parallel societies," the reality is that Germans are concerned that homeschooled children could be taught neo-Nazi and other beliefs that will perpetuate dangerous cultural mindsets.

    In sum: don't judge another country based solely on your own mindsets. And--this article's headline is ridiculous.

  • Chachi Charlottesville, VA
    July 5, 2013 10:46 a.m.

    Switzerland isn't part of the European Union. (See final paragraph of the article.)

  • Kings Court Alpine, UT
    July 5, 2013 11:12 a.m.

    So now the United States needs to start granting political asylum to those who want to home school their children? I'm sorry, but that does not and should not meet the threshold for granting political asylum. If we start granting asylum to anyone who must follow the laws of their own respective countries, we will end up with billions of immigrants taking advantage of that.

  • Shazandra Bakersfield, CA
    July 5, 2013 11:59 a.m.

    All seriousness aside, how many of the commentors here were public-school educated? I'll make a guess:

    99% of the long-winded, run-on paragrapher posts were undoubtedly educated in our inglorious public schools. Few properly educated home-schoolers forget their grammar.

    (FYI): I don't bother reading the posts that are one long run-on slew of non-paragraph-indented sentences. Why try to follow the thinking of a confused mind, untrained in logically relaying their ideas? And yes, both my parents were public school teachers and administrators, exceptional ones.

  • ClarkHippo Tooele, UT
    July 5, 2013 12:21 p.m.

    @jthompson

    You said – “First, by and large Germans really are an orderly, rule-following society. They are also more willing than Americans to sacrifice some freedoms for the good of society.”

    And what exact freedoms are we talking about here?

    You said – “Germans think children should be taught by certified, qualified teachers. The idea of a possibly uneducated parent being responsible for a child's successful education is rather ridiculous to them. (While some people may do a good job, other won't.)”

    Many say the same thing here in U.S. that parents who home school their kids are mentally ill lunatics.

    You said – “Similarly, while some commentators criticized the Germans' desire to suppress "parallel societies," the reality is that Germans are concerned that home schooled children could be taught neo-Nazi and other beliefs that will perpetuate dangerous cultural mindsets.”

    If you look through many of the comments on this board, it is obvious many think the same thing here that the only people who home school their children are ultra right-wing religious fanatics who want to teach their kids hatred.

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    July 5, 2013 12:23 p.m.

    We homeschool. My kids learn all about science, chemistry, math, etc. So do all of the other homeschoolers we associate with. My 14 year old is on track to have an Associate's from BYU Idaho before he is 18.

    Public schools exist purely to indoctrinate children. They began during the industrial revolution as a way to teach kids the skills needed to work in the factories. Before that, the parents in the community hired the teashers. Now, the public school systems indoctrinate kids into a far-left ideaology (no God, "tolerance", state is the ultimate authority, etc). Common Core is designed to undermine anything parents are teaching their children, especially about God. We pulled our children because we want them to learn Truth for themselves, not a political ideaology disguided as truth.

    Those who blindly send their children to school thinking they will let someone else teach their children will get just that - a child immersed in extreme left idealogy and a disrespect of parental authority.

    BTW - I was a lifelong Democrat until that party deserted me over the last 2 years.....

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    July 5, 2013 12:28 p.m.

    @Shazandra
    "Few properly educated home-schoolers forget their grammar."

    One could make any demographic look good educationally by adding the term "properly educated" as an adjective and a filter.

  • Lightbearer Brigham City, UT
    July 5, 2013 12:40 p.m.

    So some of you want to home-school your children to protect them from "liberal propaganda." But who will protect them from conservative propaganda?

    If all the illegals "surging" through this country could prove that they can't home-school their children in their native lands, then I suppose you would stop insisting that they be deported.

    Children learn enough about God in Sunday school and (for example) seminary. Sunday and seminary were certainly enough for me - more than enough to last a lifetime, in fact. Children need real science in school. They don't need religion masquerading as science.

  • ClarkHippo Tooele, UT
    July 5, 2013 12:51 p.m.

    “The goal in Germany is for an 'open, pluralistic society.' Teaching tolerance to children of all backgrounds helps to develop the ability to interact as a fully functioning citizen of Germany."

    And what is their definition of “tolerance” exactly? What is their definition of a “fully functioning citizen”?

    And suppose the schools in Germany feel a certain student is not tolerant enough or not a fully functioning citizen? Do they take the child away from its parents until they are deemed properly tolerant and fully functioning? And who makes those rules exactly?

    It sounds like Germany is following the words of MSNBC commentator Melissa Harris-Perry who said:

    "We have to break through our kind of private idea that kids belong to their parents or kids belong to their families, and recognize that kids belong to whole communities.”

  • Shazandra Bakersfield, CA
    July 5, 2013 1:15 p.m.

    Grammar (Webster):
    #1- "The study of the way the sentences of a language are constructed; morphology and syntax."
    #3- "A set o rules accounting for these constructions.
    #4- "Generative Geammar- A device, as a body of rules, whose output is a body of all those sentences that are permissable in a given language, while excluding all those that are not".

    @atl134- I majored in languages and literature; studied Spanish, German and Hebrew; teach Spanish Evangelism to Gringos and Biblical Hebrew to my community. No one ever surpasses the homeschoolers in any of my classes, ages 8-82. These kids will learn the Hebrew alphabet in 1 week and be ready for grammar and vocab the next... while the professionals, administrators and "degreed" instructors labor on.

    Back to the issue. I say shame on The 4th Reich for disallowing freedom, again. Period, end of subject.

    @Lightbearer- Your screen moniker is an oxymoron to your opinions. You can raise your offspring with any truism you wish. Stop telling "religious" folk what "science" should be to them. If you can keep your Science God, why disallow others to keep their own defined God?

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 5, 2013 1:15 p.m.

    At what point in a person’s life does an American citizen does a child obtain the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that goes along with freedom of religion. We accept that adults have those rights and that the government has the power and authority to secure those rights to us.

    We also accept that children because of their inadequate knowledge and experience cannot have those freedoms and rights. And we also accept the notion that children are to be regarded as the private property of their parents who have nearly unlimited rights to influence, mold, control and decide every matter of the child.

    In America we try to balance the problem of rights, with mixed results. We need a lot more discussion.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    July 5, 2013 1:16 p.m.

    Re:Redwings

    I'm surprised so many parents in UT find the schools there are teaching "far-left, no-God" ideology. My, how things have changed from when I grew up there. Shockingly, even when I lived in UT many years ago, prayer was not said at school, and parents didn't have a problem with that policy.

    On the other hand, I raised my kids outside of UT. They received excellent educations consisting of plain-vanilla subjects like math, literature, history, etc. they also attended Church and seminary. There was no "anti-God" agenda. If, unknown to me there was, it didn't "work" on my kids. The majority of kids (for better or worse) end up adhering to the values taught/experienced at home.

  • Shazandra Bakersfield, CA
    July 5, 2013 1:42 p.m.

    Au contraire, dear Bearer of Dark Light, Black Holes and Hoaxes. If there is one true Creator and God of all, then children need to hear all about the true God in church. They don't need science masquerading as religion in public venues. They don't need the world vying for control of their minds, money and morality.

    Dear Darwin told the world that his theory was just that. But the godless exalted one man's opinions, calculations and observations to deification. It has been roundly trumped and thoroughly discredited by both godless and religious scientists subsequently. Your Science God neither tells us the absolute, undeniable way or age of the universe. The scientists still search, argue, hypothesize. Study the rapid changes in astronomy theories just since Hubble and WISE started shocking the scholars with their deeper universe data.

    Eventually man discards the Earth-as-Universe's-Center for more solid "science". But science is what? Yeah, man's attempt to discover and define the incoming data. Your gods are no more elevated than another's. Just try selling your values to a Talibani.

  • Tami Herriman, UT
    July 5, 2013 2:28 p.m.

    So, a family can illegally come to our country and then we don't want to deport them because we don't want to break up their family but this family can be broken up and we don't care?

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    July 5, 2013 2:52 p.m.

    @Shazandra
    "I say shame on The 4th Reich for disallowing freedom, again. "

    I guess along with your majors you also minored in hyperbole.

    "Dear Darwin told the world that his theory was just that."

    The linguist doesn't understand the scientific definition of theory?

  • CTM SAN ANTONIO, TX
    July 5, 2013 4:15 p.m.

    This is a non-story for most of the country. Only the Deseret News, with it's constant stream of stories of religious freedom erosion would be petty enough to print it under a scare headline. Nobody's religious freedom is being abridged in this case. The family was granted asylum, then on further investigation the decision was reversed, and for sound, legal reasons. End of story. I check the DN site for news of my church and to keep up on news from home. More and more I see articles trumpeting "religious discrimination" or "this famous person joined the Church and isn't that cool" as opposed to local Utah news or stories of substance. Come on, Deseret News--aren't you better than that?

  • kargirl Sacramento, CA
    July 5, 2013 6:01 p.m.

    I was not homeschooled, thank goodness. My parents were bright people, but did not know everything, nor could both of them together possibly come up with all the best sources with which to teach five reasonably bright children. Nor did they have the means to expose us to the many differing subjects and experiences our elementary school did, much less our junior and senior high schools had they taken it that far. There are things no parent can do that teachers (plural) can do. Parents do have other responsibilities, as well, and I believe that the German Government also stated that children may go to ANY school, including religious schools. If I could have afforded it, I would have sent mine to one, just for the discipline. And this is not your average immigration problem...it is also an international issue between sovereign nations and a judicial problem. So it doesn't belong on the same table, maybe not even in the same dining room as immigration.

  • kargirl Sacramento, CA
    July 5, 2013 6:29 p.m.

    jthompson, thank you. My grandfather was German, brought over here as a child by his parents, and I have reason to be proud of my heritage. Your post is a reminder that each country's laws are unique and to be respected; we can't simply impose our expectations of what should be legal on another land just because it's how it is here. I hope some who wrote in the heat of passion will note that after cooling down...maybe...you made one girl in the West feel much better.

  • utah1966 broomfield, CO
    July 6, 2013 12:46 p.m.

    The German family could have gone to France, Switzerland, Austria but they CHOSE America. Choice is the crux of the whole dilemma. Parents who home school aren't dumb. Most have 'taught' their children everything they learn from birth to starting school.I have read many times that homeschooled children excel. Children in public schools also do much better when their parents are involved in their learning on a daily basis. Now states want required preschool attendance for kids, but its parents who need to be encouraged to spend more time 'teaching' at home.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    July 7, 2013 9:27 a.m.

    Germany has admittedly "produced" great composers (before it existed as a nation), great scientists (the greatest having to flee from it) and great inventors (though not all of them as Nazi Germany was wont to claim).

    However,judging the nation of Germany by its own short history (it dates from 1871 I believe) it does a bit more than just "believe in a more orderly society".

    Born under Bismarckian "Blood and Iron" and Realpolitik, it developed Prussian militarism and then Nazi-ism, started two world wars, and suffered occupation, and forcible division for fifty years in the tempting hope of making the world safer for democracy than otherwise- Unfortunately and amazingly a gullible West ommitted to factor in the compensating tyranny of the USSR.

    Germany still does not include Austria except when forcibly annexed, of course. Neither does it include Sweden which also excels in controlling and disbanding families who are not sufficiently politically correct.

  • grandmagreat Lake Havasu City, AZ
    July 9, 2013 8:48 a.m.

    Just another case of "What is happening to ohis Great Christian nation", If a family is here legally why in the world would there even be an idea that they should be deported. I agree that Thomas Jefferson of Wellsville. We as Americans need to pray that this will not happen, these people are legal in this counry, they are Christians, and want what is best for their children. My prayers will be with them,

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    July 20, 2013 5:36 p.m.

    The fact that courts in the US have consistently and regularly ruled in favor of home schoolers shows that the Obama administration is out of touch with reality.

    Also, the claims that this is just treatment of anyone who does not send their child to school is rubbish. Parents have a right to chose how to raise their children. This right is being violated here.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    July 20, 2013 5:46 p.m.

    Parents have an unalienable right to chose how to raise their children. Having been bullied much in school the claim that going to school is some sort of "human right" to a child is just plain rubbish.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    July 20, 2013 5:49 p.m.

    Here in America we believe in idealogical freedom. We also have over and over again upheld a right of parents to control the upbringing of their child. This trumps the attempts of the state to mold the child into what the state wants. The trheat of taking the children away is a grave threat, and we should not send parents into such a mess.

  • nhsaint PETERBOROUGH, NH
    Aug. 4, 2013 12:25 p.m.

    In the 1980's, I knew a woman from Rhode Island who was jailed for not sending her children to school- she was a trained teacher who wanted to homeschool, but it was illegal in that state, regardless. In all the years before that in most states in this country, any child who was not enrolled in and regularly attending public school was considered 'truant', and would be sent to a youth detention center. The parents were considered criminals, as well, and they could lose custody of their child if they did not force the child to attend school. The woman in question was forced to move to another state where she could find 'asylum' and legally homeschool her child.

    Homeschooling as a trend has only gained acceptance in the United States in the past 20 years. We cannot insist that another nation be on the same path and timeframe as we are in all issues.

    Germany is a pretty nice place on the whole, with people who generally treat those who are 'different' in any way with dignity and caring. Religious tolerance is high in Germany, but they see a different way of achieving that. Not our business!