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Man accused of dressing as woman and taking pictures in female dorm rooms

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  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    June 25, 2013 10:11 a.m.

    As this was a students only area there is another "level" he broke, but consider for a moment this was a man posing as a female, entering a women's only area such as restroom or gym locker room.

    Who is to say he's a man and not a woman?

    I thought each person got to decide for themselves whether they were a man or a woman?

    My current understanding from liberals is that it is impossible to tell by looking at someone or even by their anatomy whether someone is male or female.

  • NedGrimley Brigham City, UT
    June 25, 2013 11:02 a.m.

    Wait a minute! Isn't California right in the middle of "Gender Liberation" legislation that allows you to choose what you are and show up in whatever bathroom or dressing room you want to? Obviously this guy has made a choice. Shouldn't he be "liberated" so he can pursue his true path in life?

  • Random Redlands, CA
    June 25, 2013 11:12 a.m.

    And we in California were told, and are being told, this wouldn't happen. There are some sane, rational thinkers in California; unfortunately, most politicians aren't in that class.

  • Eliot Santaquin, UT
    June 25, 2013 11:27 a.m.

    I think you all missed the part of the story where he was arrested for assault because he tried to run over a security guard with his vehicle. There is no mention of impending charges for voyeurism or trespassing.

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    June 25, 2013 11:40 a.m.

    Eliot,

    Although there is no mention of these charges does not mean they are out outstanding.

    Additionally, if there was not some concern of a "man" being in a women's area it is doubtful authorities ever would have been called.

    Yes, he was in a student area, but assuming it was a female in an all female student area it is likely many people would have had no idea "she" was not a student.

    Apparently someone thought it was "not ok" for man to be in a woman's area, thus making a call to authorities in the first place.

    The argument still holds.

  • Phranc SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    June 25, 2013 1:23 p.m.

    It seems to me all the posters above are the same ones that argue against gun laws when a violent gun act happens because "criminals don't follow the law anyway, etc etc etc... Do any of you same people really think laws restricting the rights of actual transgender people would really stop a criminal like this?

  • NedGrimley Brigham City, UT
    June 25, 2013 1:42 p.m.

    Actually, Phranc, it seems the posters here just see the irony of the story, given the recent events in California and the whole idea of being "liberated" from those old, stodgy stereotypes.

    Maybe a better question would be: "When the law facilitates this kind of activity, (even promotes it) what will it take to realize the line has been drawn a little to far to the left?"

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    June 25, 2013 1:48 p.m.

    A guy dresses as a woman to commit a series of crimes - and this is being used as an argument to limit the rights of transgender and transsexual individuals.

    People dress as clowns to commit crimes. Should we limit the right of people to be clowns?

    People dress as war heroes to commit crime. Should we ban people from joining the military?

    What about priests? Presidents? Airline pilots? Scout leaders? Pregnant women?

    How many people's rights should be limited because criminals use fake identities to commit crimes?

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    June 25, 2013 2:00 p.m.

    phrank,

    "Do any of you same people really think laws restricting the rights of actual transgender people would really stop a criminal like this?"

    No one is suggesting giving "transgender" people what they want will stop this.

    Not even close.

    Not sure where you got that idea?

    We are suggesting that if liberals get what they want - that is - deciding that every person has the right to decide which gender they "are" on any given day, there will soon be no way to prevent any man from going into a women's locker room.

    We are suggesting there will be MORE issues in the future, not the prevention of some.

    Pretty soon who will have the right to tell any individual whether they can go into a woman's locker room?

    Each person can decide what they are right?

  • Phranc SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    June 25, 2013 3:05 p.m.

    @nedgrimmley

    I could make the same argument for gun control if I wanted to be (rightly)blasted for trying to take away honest gun owners rights.

    "When the the laws and lack of laws facilitates gun violence, (even promotes it) what will it take to realize the line has been drawn a little to far to the right?"

    As kalindra points out you could apply the same failed logic to any group or behavior since criminals will ignore or exploit any limits or freedoms we create.

    Do we just say nobody gets to have any freedoms because some criminal is going to commit a crime if we do?

  • paintandestroy Richmond/Cache, UT
    June 25, 2013 3:13 p.m.

    So by gender equality logic can a gay man enter a womans dressing area for example or just a gay man who has had an operation to appear female? Can someone who appears male (as a result of surgery) but was born female enter a womans dressing area? This not meant out of disrespect toward anyone-I believe in kindness toward all- but how do we respect the gender of someone who doesn't recognize birth gender when it violates the privacy of everyone else?

  • Phranc SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    June 25, 2013 3:31 p.m.

    @Chris B
    So then you think transgender people should have the right to go into a women bathroom and locker room as long as they meet some kind of criteria?

    otherwise, I am afraid you are looking for a distinction without a difference.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    June 25, 2013 3:43 p.m.

    @paintanddistroy

    first you may not be aware their is a difference between a gay man and a transgender individuals? Someone that has undergone surgery is transgender but most often not gay. I know it is confusing but let me see if I can explain. Someone that goes through surgery does so because they truly believe they are trapped in the wrong body. So if they have surgery to lets say go from male to female, they already view themselves as female so the fact that they are attracted to men to them makes them straight not gay. Transgender people really do view themselves as in the wrong body and believe their body has betrayed them. So building understanding and therefore hopefully building respect for their basic human dignity to be who they truly believe they are can begin to lower unfounded fear about privacy.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    June 25, 2013 4:23 p.m.

    @ Chris B: Your comments show a deep misunderstanding of what it means to be transgender or transsexual. They also reveal a deep fear of something you don't understand.

    Transgender and transsexual individuals don't change their identity daily anymore than anyone else does.

    The best solution is gender-neutral restrooms and locker rooms with individual stalls that afford privacy to all. No one should have to perform bodily functions in public nor should they have to dress or undress in front of perfect strangers.

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    June 25, 2013 4:41 p.m.

    toystory,

    "Transgender people really do view themselves as in the wrong body and believe their body has betrayed them"

    I don't doubt that's what they THINK.

    But I'm talking about what they ARE.

    If I THINK I'm a dinosaur that doesn't make it so.

    Doesn't matter if I paint my skin, have surgery, attach claws. I'm still a human. Not a dinosaur.

    Encouraging make belief is fine for 2 year olds.

    But at some people reality needs to be faced.

    With very REAL consqeuences.

    As a society we all agree men should be in men's locker rooms and women in women's locker rooms.

    Unless we use the same definition of "men" and "women" as has been used for millions of years, there can be no preventing ever of someone who wants to go in either locker room correct?

    Who are you to say the "man" in this story isnt a female?

    If so - he should be allowed in the locker room no questions asked right?

    And if you want to bring up the straw man of talking pictures, fine. Bring it up.

    And then answer it assuming he wasn't.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    June 25, 2013 6:48 p.m.

    Kalindra,

    I applaud you or at least providing an answer to the issues I bring up. Typically liberals dance around the issue without providing an answer to very real situations.

    I still feel your proposal is short sighted.

    So you propose 3 restrooms/locker rooms everywhere?

    Again I ask who gets to decide who enters which? Or is anyone free to enter any of them? Again liberals say each person is the only one who decides which gender they are right?

    The time will come when these questions have to be answered.

    I would love if you dare to provide an answer to all these issues, and not dance around it.

    What types of locker rooms/restrooms will be required by law?
    Who get to decide who can enter each one?

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    June 25, 2013 6:50 p.m.

    @chris b

    "Toy story?" Very mature, it does however illustrate why you struggle to follow such a grown up conversation that does not fit into your black and white developmental level.

    There are medical/psychological definitions of transgender and transsexual that are accepted definitions not only in the medical and mental health fields but in a court of law.so no it is not some arbitrary idea some liberal thought up to try to get one over on you

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    June 25, 2013 7:37 p.m.

    Tolstoy,

    There are medical definitions of transgender?

    Fine. I accept that.

    Again I ask who gets to decide who enters a male locker room and who enters a female locker room?

    You still avoid the single most important question I raise.

    This article is about a "man" in a female area.

    Who is to say he is not a woman?

    I thought each person to to decide?

    I will repeat

    What are the definitions of male and female such that will apply to who should go in male locker rooms and who should go in female locker rooms?

    Does each person still always get to decide?

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    June 25, 2013 7:48 p.m.

    @ Chris B: No, I do not propose 3 bathrooms/locker rooms - I propose one, which would have private areas for private business and everyone would use that one. You would walk in, there would be a communal sink and mirrors and lockers if it is a locker room and then there would be a bunch of stalls with doors that close and you would take your stuff, go into the stall, and do your business.

    There are many places worldwide, including in the US, that already do this.

    And FYI - the crimes this man committed are not the straw men - what the man was wearing is the straw man.

    If this man had been dressed as a woman, walking down the street, taking pictures - it would have been completely legal. The crimes he committed were trespassing, privacy violations related to taking pictures without permission in a private area, and assault as he was fleeing the scene. If he had dressed as a janitor to do all that - it still would have been just as illegal. What he was wearing does not affect the illegality of his actions and how he was dressed is not a crime.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    June 25, 2013 7:57 p.m.

    @chris b

    How exactly did tolstoy not address your question? we have definitions which you "accept" for trans people using this definition the courts legally recognize that person as being of the sex they identify with not the one they were born as. So no a man wearing a dress walking into a women's restroom is not considered by the court of law or by the medical profession to be female. So I have to wonder are you purposely trying to be myopic because you don't care for the facts or are you really as tolstoy describes above?

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    June 25, 2013 8:19 p.m.

    Spring street,
    No, we have not been give a definition of what make someone male and what makes someone female?

    What is that definition?

    And remember that definition must then be applied to every person

    If you suggest that the definition changes, then we are back to square one where each person gets to decide

    Again, what is this definition?

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    June 25, 2013 8:28 p.m.

    @chris B

    sorry my bad I forgot the whole concrete operational, black and white thinking thing.

    let me spell it out for you, when a person meets the above mentioned criteria the courts and the medical profession no longer identify them of the sex they were before they were defined as transexual. So if a person that was male, for example, meet the medical/legal definition of transexual then they for legal and practical purposes would be considered female. So no it is not just left up to each person to decide. I am really not sure how to explain the logic in a form that would be any easier for you to comprehend then that so hopefully that helped.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    June 25, 2013 10:00 p.m.

    @chris b

    The "definition" is far to lengthy and invovled for these threads but if you go to the AMA or APA website and look up I cd 9 code 300.85 you can read to you hearts content.

  • Cris B. Sandy, UT
    June 25, 2013 11:38 p.m.

    Tolsty,

    A quick google search provides links to the organization you list, which refers to gender identity as the "internal sense"...followed by blah blah blah

    I can see why you didn't want to give me a definition. I am right.

    In other words, whatever one person thinks he/she is

    Just as I stated all along, you could not provide a definition other than "each person decides"

    So we are back to square one. It appears liberals think each person can decide which gender they are and therefore no one has the right to tell any other person which locker room they can enter.

    Thus the definition from the groups you reference refer to what a persons feels internally is their gender

    In other words, exactly what I stated all along

    So you support any person claiming to be a woman walking into a female locker room correct?

    If the definition you have for female therefore is someone who thinks they are a female, who is to question any person walking into the ladies locker room?

    Sorry Tolsty, that was too easy. And obvious.

  • Cris B. Sandy, UT
    June 26, 2013 12:24 a.m.

    Tolstoy,

    You seem to have pointed me to "gender identity"

    I am looking or definitions of "gender"

    Big difference

    Big big difference

    For example, if I thought I was a dinosaur, I would have species identity issues, an yet in reality I would not truly be a dinosaur

    That's my whole point. A man that wears a dress is a man that wears a dress

    Your only definition is, just as I expected, "whatever someone thinks they are" which obviously does not work

    I am not a dinosaur even if I "self identify" as a dinosaur

    Lets call that a practice.

    I will give you a mulligan. Care to try again?

    What is the definition of male/female in reality?

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    June 27, 2013 2:17 a.m.

    @Christopher B

    "We are suggesting there will be MORE issues in the future, not the prevention of some."

    Just like making guns easier to get means more gun crime.