Rather than evidence that independence is working I think Ansah is an example of
just the opposite. Ziggy matches Jim McMahon as the highest draft pick in BYU
history yet the coaching staff really had no idea what they had, finally gave
him minutes as a senior almost by accident, and still underutilized him in the
final games of his senior year. Ziggy somehow found a way to be
successful in spite of the blunders of the coaching staff.
There's no way to say that BYU's football independence had anything to
do with Ansah's success nor the subsequent media coverage. Had BYU been
conference affiliated Ansah's unique and compelling story would still have
garnered intense exposure.I love that BYU is football independent
but it's a much too limited view to say that independence led to
Ansah's story and media coverage.
Bronco has yet to have a single of HIS recruits that was drafted.Zero.None.Hasn't happened. Ever.Whittingham has over 20.So does SabanAnd milesand mack
brownand chris Petersonand steve spurrierWhat this shows
is that quality coaching in BCS leagues "is working"LOL
Ziggy's story somewhat mirrors "Book of Mormon the musical" Sheds a
lot of light on what the LDS church is doing in Africa. Exposure is good and it
goes both ways. BYU, the LDS church and rank and file mormons are being exposed
to diverse opinions and beliefs. I hope everyone continues to benefit.
Clearly Ansah's success has brought a lot of attention to BYU. That's
not debatable. But I'll confess: I'm not seeing how Ansah's
success justifies independence. I'm pretty sure he would have had the same
success had BYU still been in the MWC, or any other conference.Is
this article making the case that a player can still get to the NFL in
BYU's independent state? Was there any doubt of that before? The top player
in the NFL draft came from Central Michigan -- a school from a conference that
gets FAR less ink than BYU as a MWC member or independent.
"If you believe ESPN would have given the Ansah story the same airtime were
BYU still playing games in anonymity on a crummy low-def network based in
Colorado, Craig Thompson has a bridge to sell you in Laramie."Great line and well written article. Teeples is a welcome addition to the
DNews staff. I agree that independence is working out better for BYU than if
they had stayed in the MWC. Would I rather be in the Big 12? Absolutely, but
it is unlikely that they will come calling. Independence is the next best
thing.Re: Jake D. You obviously didn't watch Ziggy
early on in this process. As someone who has watched him and his development
closely I can tell you that the coaching at BYU did a masterful job with him.
And rooming with KVN didn't hurt either. You don't start someone in
college football just because they are athletic, you start them when
they're ready to make meaningful contributions to the team. That is
exactly what happened with Ansah at BYU.
RE: Johnny Triumph"I love that BYU is football independent but
it's a much too limited view to say that independence led to Ansah's
story and media coverage."That's not what the article said.
It said that partnering with ESPN led to more airtime and exposure than Ansah
would have gotten otherwise, which is true. It also pointed out that this
partnership with ESPN led to very positive exposure for the LDS church, which
was also true.
Confused at why the TITLE of the article is saying this is evidence that
BYU's independence is working.There s no objective evidence that
BYU's independence is working. In fact, even the most die-hard fan gets
giddy with the possibility of joining the big 12. Ziggy is the success
story. In and of himself. He deserves the credit for pushing on, trying out new
things, leaving home and persevering. This is not a success of BYUs or of the
church. This IS great exposure for the two and that they can facilitate such
success, but the credit is Ziggy's.
Jake D.LOL at your jealous, delusional spin. Only a jealous BYU
hater would even think that way.BYU's coaching staff provided
exactly what Ziggy needed as far as coaching, first giving Ziggy a chance to
learn the game by being a member of the team, then being patient enough to teach
him enough about the game so that he wouldn't be totally lost when he was
finally stepped onto the football field, and finally, not pressing him into a
starting position until he was ready to handle the every-down grind of being a
starter.The bottom-line results SCREAM success, since Ziggy
progressed from not even knowing how to don a pair of shoulder pads to being the
#5 NFL draft pick under the tutelage of BYU's coaching staff.
The problem I have with hypotheses like the one in this story ("Ziggy's
story is proof that independence is working") is that it's impossible
to test any alternate hypotheses. Who's to say that if BYU were a part of
a conference that Ziggy wouldn't have gotten even MORE press and the
church's efforts in Africa wouldn't have gotten even MORE press?Being able to draw a rash conclusion like the one drawn in this article
without testing any other hypothesis is disingenuous. In fact, in psychology it
has a name: Experimenter's bias.
timid sparrowIt is possible to test this hypothesis:That
Ziggy produced far more publicity for BYU and was far more successful in helping
BYU qualify for a bowl game, than Star produced for Utah.Future BYU
recruits all over the country obviously noticed and will undoubtedly be
factoring that into their personal equation when it comes to deciding where they
want to play college football.Ziggy's story IS priceless, and
the exposure BYU received IS evidence that BYU football independence is working,
despite the ankle-biting yapping from the hill.
talkinsports,Did you know Utah just won the recruiting battle for
the fourth year in a row?LOL.Yes, the great majority of
kids who had offers from both byu and Utah picked UTAH.And
UTAH's average stars are higher than byu's.And if you
think stars don't matter, Nick saban disagrees. He gets more 4 and 5 star
guys each year than BYU will in the next 20 years.LOL
I guess I'm not seeing how the BCS recruiting on the hill is working? I
think the interesting story is that BYU doesn't have NFL talent but is
playing at a high level of success. Given BYU's lack of NFL talent, the
football team should be getting crushed every single game right?
I think that many people are really looking at not only this story but the whole
BYU thing in the wrong way. Too many people on the hill think only football in
the eyes of the pac-12....money, money, money. BYU and the Church look at it
through the eyes of exposure for the Church. Football, the game and its success
is way down the list of what they want to achieve. BYU has taken the high road
and over time will become very successful in their goals. Most of u need to step
out of the football box and take off your crimson (or whatever color u are using
now) glasses and see things as they really are. BYU is making a huge success of
independence and over time will see things grow and progress to make not only
BYU but the Church more successful than anyone has ever dreamed.Don't believe me? Just watch ! ! !True success is in the
eyes of the beholder. Success is not being on the bottom of a major conference.
chrissyCBSSports is already projecting Kyle Van Noy as the 11th pick
in the 2014 draft.Sorry, no Utes mentioned on the 2014 Big BoardUnfortunately for U, the tide is turning as the two programs head in
opposite directions.BYU back to national prominence.Utah
back to conference also ran, infrequent bowl game participant.
If you continually have to keep trying to talk yourself into believing you made
a good decision about something... in the face of facts and reality, chances
are...Big XII here you come LOL
ParkCityAggieThere's nothing wrong with using new evidence to
validate previous decisions.The most critical decision in leaving
the MWC to become Independent was gaining increased exposure, the evidence for
which is ample.As far as the Big XII is concerned, there's no
evidence that BYU turned down an invitation from the Big XII. BYU did engage in
discussions with the Big XII, but only those involved in the actual discussion
know how close BYU and the Big XII came to a formal agreement that would have
produced a formal invitation.
Seems many are missing Teeples' point: a) ESPN was a huge factor in
promoting Ziggy and gaining him and BYU national exposure b) ESPN has a vested
interest in promoting both because of their contractual relationship with BYU,
and c) that relationship would not exist were it not for BYU's
independence.@wwookie--No, not every "die-hard fan gets giddy
with the possibility of joining the big 12". Being part of a conference is
not nirvana. Playing other great programs, being on the national stage, and
having a shot at a big bowl if we do well--THAT's nirvana to a true
football fan. BYU's 2013 schedule is stellar: Wisconsin and Notre Dame in
November, Texas, Georgia Tech and Boise State in Lavell Edwards Stadium, opening
game against Virginia. And membership in the WCC has been huge for the other
sports: top-drawer competition in basketball, soccer, volleyball, baseball,
softball, gymnastics.I'm LOVING independence, and I suspect
we're just getting warmed up!
@talkinsportsI don't think you understand how the scientific
method works. Star and Ziggy aren't the same person so their
"exposure" can't be compared, just like how you can't compare
their stats on the football field because they don't play the same
position. Ziggy has a "rags to riches" story that Star doesn't
have, and Ziggy is a relatively new arrival on the high-level football scene,
unlike Star.Again, we can't turn back time, insert Ziggy into
Utah's football team, and see how his exposure changes vs. his time with
BYU. The logical fallacy you posted is the exact definition of an apples to
timid sparrowBottom line little brother is that Ziggy was the most
talked about story in the NFL draft this year and BYU gained tremendous positive
exposure because of the story.Nobody, except our jealous little
friends on the hill, cares to what degree BYU was responsible for Ziggy's
success, but the fact remains, that BYU was responsible for making Ziggy's
story possible.You can claim that Ziggy would have been just as
successful at Utah, but you have absolutely no evidence to prove that Kyle would
have even given Ziggy a chance to be on the team.We know its tough,
but you'll just have to get used to the reality that Utah's 15 minutes
of fame are in the past. Your bcs busters are old news and being a bottom
dweller in the PAC isn't nearly as exciting as Utah fans like to pretend it
I have to agree with aceroinox: So far, I don't see how any mythical
invite to the Big 12 would have in any measurable way been better than
independence in football. And with all the churn in conference alignment,
standing out of that pond and watching the water move is better than trying to
swim in it right now.Ziggy represents everything I love about BYU.
It went through me just like he said it went through him. For someone who lives
outside the I-15 bubble, BYUtv & ESPN has been fan-tastic. And
don't forget little hill-dwellers, Star would have played for BYU if he had
made the grades. He said so himself.
Rather than saying "independence is working" how about changing it to,
"independence is not NOT working"? Just wondering.
Great article. Independence Rocks! BYU controls its destiny and never has to
play Utah again unless we want to. Awesome way to be.
These articles merely serve to feed the MYTH that's byu football.
Independence is a complete fraud, but this type of reading does provide me with
a convenient excuse to grab popcorn and kick it in my Lazy-Boy. Thanks!!!!
bradleycLayton, UT"Great article. Independence Rocks! BYU
controls its destiny and never has to play Utah again unless we want to. Awesome
way to be."Losing 3 straight to us, 4 of 5, 8 of 11 and being
down to us overall, 56-34-4, I wouldn't ever want to play against us ever
again, as well. Well put!!!!
@Brave Sir RobinThe argument you are making is disingenuous also. Plenty
of studies and research is done without regard to "alternative"
hypotheses, because alternative hypotheses aren't feasible or possible to
study (such is the case here). Most research lists this under
"recommendations" or "limitations" at the end of their research.
It doesn't invalidate the research they've done, only points to
changes that can be done for further evaluations, or limitations (like inability
to test other variables) inherent in their research. In other words they
don't disregard the evidence in front of them simply because they
can't study some of the other variables, which is what you're
suggesting. The evidence points to BYU having increased exposure because of
espn, and that exposure is a function of their independence, because without it
there would be no contract with espn. Therefore, BYUs independence was a major
factor in ziggys exposure and rise to prominence. Are there other variables? Of
course, but that doesn't diminish the evidence suggesting that independence
has been good to BYU and Ziggy. All that said, you were accurate in your
statements to talkinsports and the fallacy he presented.
Chris B: I'm glad that Utah has the chance to be in the PAC 12. Good for
them, good for their fans. Whether or not they will ever play for a National
Championship remains to be seen. However, you are also members of a conference
that practices religious bigotry. The Presidents of Stanford and California
black balled BYU because of religion.
Danish American:You may be right about Stanford and California but do you
have evidence that BYU was black balled by them or the PAC 12? BYU isn't in
the PAC 12 (not sure they would want to be) because they aren't a teir one
research institution and because they are a very conservative school which the
other universities of the PAC 12 aren't. We know those facts for
sure...whether there was religious bigotry involved isn't so clear, but to
say it was is an unfounded accusation.
The pouting and cheap shots from the trolls scream jealousy. While I don't
read ute or Aggie articles, I hope that BYU fans don't make such foolish
AZUTE1"Independence is a complete fraud, "Based
on what, your own jealous BYU-hating opinion?Despite your
over-inflated opinion of yourself, the world does not revolve around U.In fact, the rest of the college football world views Utah's wins over
BYU as so insignificant in the larger picture, that BYU still consistently
finishes ahead of the Utes in the final rankings.It's gotta be
tough when the only significant accomplishments you've had since joining
the PAC are a couple of wins over BYU, yet nobody except the kids on the hill
seems to care.
Success comes in many packages. The package that BYU has places them in the
ESPN spotlight and so far it ahs been a benefit for BYU. It could get much
better with a great season or two and it could go down with a poor season, but
so far this is a great journey.
Ziggy just proves Bronco is an awesome recruiter. Not only did he find him all
the way in Africa but he used him extensively. Ziggy is a monster and this
just shows how awesome independence is. If we were in a league, there is no way
we could have recruited Ziggy.
Also, Ziggy gave us so much great publicity. Big time D-line recruits are lining
up so they can play in the NFL too.
"Ziggy Ansah's story priceless, evidence BYU football independence is
working"Just another story from the DNews sugar coating
independence as something better than what it really is.
EddieSyracuse, UTI think that many people are really looking at not
only this story but the whole BYU thing in the wrong way. Too many people on the
hill think only football in the eyes of the pac-12....money, money, money. BYU
and the Church look at it through the eyes of exposure for the Church. Football,
the game and its success is way down the list of what they want to achieve. BYU
has taken the high road and over time will become very successful in their
goals. Most of u need to step out of the football box and take off your crimson
(or whatever color u are using now) glasses and see things as they really are.
BYU is making a huge success of independence and over time will see things grow
and progress to make not only BYU but the Church more successful than anyone has
ever dreamed.Don't believe me? Just watch ! ! !True
success is in the eyes of the beholder. Success is not being on the bottom of a
major conference.____________And what about BYU TV and
its world wide exposure? Yet BYU took the money from ESPN.
Y's little brotherSandy, UTchrissyCBSSports is
already projecting Kyle Van Noy as the 11th pick in the 2014 draft.Sorry, no Utes mentioned on the 2014 Big BoardUnfortunately for U,
the tide is turning as the two programs head in opposite directions.BYU back to national prominence.Utah back to conference also ran,
infrequent bowl game participant.____________You
don't go back to national prominence with a miserable record against ranked
teams the past several years. Hello BYU!
Got to love our Independence!Go Cougars!
The story does have a somewhat sad ending though in that Ziggy has chosen the
path of fame and fortune over devoted discipleship. Participating in the
entertainment industry almost always on Sundays and drawing people away from
Christian service on Sundays does not further the mission of BYU or the LDS
church. Not all fame and fortune and publicity is useful in helping people to
become more Christlike. The Sabbath day is a commandment even for someone
offered millions of dollars to break the commandment. I hope Ziggy does a lot
of good in life but Eli Herring is a better example for society of how a member
of the LDS church, even a famous athlete, should act.
@Brave Sir Robin - "Being able to draw a rash conclusion like the one drawn
in this article without testing any other hypothesis is disingenuous. In fact,
in psychology it has a name: Experimenter's bias."Lol.
Next time you may want to click on the science tab instead of the sports tab.
But I will look forward to your hypothetical, pyshological analysis of the Utes
this season. Hopeful your results won't be disingenuous.
"Your bcs busters are old news and being a bottom dweller in the PAC
isn't nearly as exciting as Utah fans like to pretend it is."Amen! Last place in virtually every sport too." Independence
is a complete fraud, but this type of reading does provide me with a convenient
excuse to grab popcorn and kick it in my Lazy-Boy."Hahahahha!
These comments are so hilarious. If you didn't care, why would you read
and post. Can we say, obsession??!! I think we can.Fact: Jimmer
and Ansah have provided more exposure than anyone could have dreamed. Jimmer
national player of the year and Ansah top five pick. Both getting significant
air time on ESPN, including special stories just about them with nice music to
add to it. As we saw by the WF guy who transferred because he first heard about
Jimmer, BYU is getting exposure. These stories are getting the word out on BYU.
Thanks ESPN for helping BYU reach its mission! It's driving the obsessed
anti-BYU fellers insane,and we love it! BYU is in great shape for
Boy, some people just cannot stand any degree of success enjoyed by BYU. You Bronco bashers may want to go back and watch the earliest film
available on Ziggey. He was very nearly a different athlete at the start of
the season and at the end. Idiots think he was born that way. He was
developed, and just as fast as he could go. There WAS a number one
drafted, came from a small college. THAT'S a big story. Did it get much
air time?I rest my case.
caleb in new yorkBefore you get too self-righteous, just remember,
every time you turn on a light, flush the toilet, adjust the thermostat, drive
to church on a snowy day, get sick, stay in a hotel, fly somewhere, watch
general conference, or basically just breath on a Sunday, you are contributing
to someone, somewhere having to work on the Sabbath, often because they CHOSE A
PROFESSION that requires them to work on the Sabbath.When my brother
was going to college, he worked weekends as a security guard at the Ogden
Temple!Don't be so quick to judge someone as a Sabbath breaker
simply because they take a stroll threw a wheat field on the Sabbath.
@ truth machine - noone has to work on Sunday because I flush a toilet or turn
on a light. We have been asked not to shop on Sunday. The entertainment
industry doesn't really match up with the other good examples you've
given. Ziggy just was at college for a few years - he has other options besides
having to play in the NFL. I live in the mission field. We see people every
year, especially new members, who fall away from the church and lose their faith
because they start to work on Sunday. Playing in a professional football game
on Sunday is quite a bit different than a stroll through a wheat field.
caleb in new york"noone has to work on Sunday because I flush a
toilet or turn on a light"Tell that to the utility worker
who's called out to repair a ruptured pipeline or a downed power line on a
Sunday. While I applaud Eli's decision to pass on playing in
the NFL, I don't judge other professional athletes who have chosen an
occupation that unfortunately requires them to work on the Sabbath. Why single
out athletes for their choice of professions, when other professions, like dairy
farming, also require Sunday work.
@ phoenix - well me turning a light on does not cause a power line to go down.
if it falls down on Sunday they in many cases in could wait until Monday to
repair it. People survived for centuries without electricity flowing into their
homes. I don't know that much about dairy farmers and their work on Sunday
and this was an article about a football player not a dairy farmer. I hope
Ziggy tries to go to church when he can and tries to stay a nice person but he
would do far more good in the world by choosing a profession that lets him keep
the Sabbath Day holy and help build up a strong ward then he will by encouraging
people to watch football for hours on end on the Sabbath Day.
Ziggy's story has nothing to do with independence, or recruiting. It has
everything to do with luck. BYU is extremely fortunate.
@CalebYou need a refresher course in the spirit of the law vs the
letter.Nowhere in any Church manual will you be instructed on how many
steps you can take or whether or not it's ok to turn a light switch on or
off, on the Sabbath.In fact, keeping the Sabbath Day Holy, is the
most ambiguous commandment of all, By Design.And btw, the ancient Sabbath
actually began on Sundown Friday night.Do you want to go there?I come from a family of medical professionals...they have had to work on
Sundays on occasion. As do policeman, fireman etc.Many times
I've been called out by the Church to help with a flood or a fire or some
other emergency, ON THE SABBATH!Church owned media pay employees,
which work on the Sabbath.General Conference for example.Don't get caught up in the letter.And don't judge.The
LDS don't subscribe to the orthodox view.This is an individual
choice and not up to you.Eli Herring was projected to be a top 3 pick
years ago.He chose not to play on Sundays. His choice....Not yours!
goducks"Ziggy's story has nothing to do with independence,
or recruiting. It has everything to do with luck.""Luck is
what happens when preparation meets opportunity."-- Darrell RoyalBYU gave Ziggy the opportunity and helped prepare him.
this article is really stretching facts to make a conclusion. Considering that
Ziggy wouldn't have even started unless another player went down, I think
BYU is extremely lucky that this turned out the way it did. I wonder how many
other quality players are in the program and not getting a chance to play
because they don't measure up to the arbitrary standards that they have
there for who will start and play.
@ Bluto - you're correct about the manuals and the light switch thing. But
our church has put forth several manuals that expound on the commandment of
keeping the Sabbath Day holy which clearly state that the Sabbath should not be
a day for the typical recreation such as boating, skiing, and attending sporting
events. See Teachings of the Latter-Day Prophets Spencer W. Kimball, Gospel
Principles manual, and recent talks in Priesthood meeting by President Monson
encouraging members not to play sports on Sunday. If a doctor or nurse works on
Sunday then he/she usually helps heal the sick and afflicted. When a
professional football player works on Sunday, he helps cause brain damage to his
opponents and helps participate in a big distraction that distracts many other
average joes from fully keeping the Sabbath Day holy. Playing football on
Sundays for 15 or 16 weeks in a row in no way equates to a firefighter helping
put out a fire on the Sabbath.
What does Ansah's success and subsequent exposure have to do with Utah
football? Why is Utah even part of the conversation? Given that many of
Utah's athletes are LDS, doesn't it also make sense that their success
would also cast a favorable light on the Mormon people?
I can see where article is coming from. I don't think that independence
and media "exposure" played in Ziggy's personal success as much as
his great athleticism. I think BYU's independence is killing its ability to
send players to the next level. Several BYU players that were not drafted
signed with teams. One of these players is Romney Fuga. Fuga is at the present
time is a better player than Ziggy. It's hard to compare the two for two
reasons (1) Romney is primarily a run stopper (Ziggy is a pass rusher) and (2)
BYU's scheme wasn't designed to showcase Romney's abilities.
Romney was the foundation of that defense and an unsung hero. While
independence appears to be helping the church and marginally so Ziggy, being in
a conference probably would have been beneficial to players like Fuga, Hadley,
Ogletree & Hansen. Being on an all conference team would have been nice to
add to there resumes and would have given them clout in the NFL Draft.
Ultimately an inability to draft good players means that good recruits will go
elsewhere. I wouldn't expect a top 10 football team out of BYU any time
Tilka"this article is really stretching facts to make a
conclusion. Considering that Ziggy wouldn't have even started unless
another player went down,"You don't know that. Ziggy was getting more and more playing time as the season progressed. The
timing of the injury to another player did create a hole in the starting lineup
that Ziggy was able to fill nicely, but that doesn't mean Ziggy
wouldn't have soon been playing starter's minutes anyway.You can call it luck if you want, but as another blogger already posted, "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity."-- Darrell RoyalIf not for Bronco giving Ziggy the opportunity to
prove that he could learn the game, and then Bronco and his staff teaching Ziggy
how to play the game, Ziggy likely would have never played a down of football at
any level.As with any professional athlete, Ziggy had to provide the
physical skills and work effort, but it took training by his coaches to mold
Ziggy's natural physical abilities into a professional football player.
caleb, bless your heart, brother! Keeping the Sabbath day holy to me means
I'm not going to watch sports on Sunday, on TV or especially live. Keeping
the spirit of the Gospel means I'm not going to judge harshly someone who
has chosen a career in professional sports.We worked closely with
our children so that when the time came to make a decision about playing
competitive sports on the Sabbath day, they would be able to make a good
decision, meaning a decision that they arrived at the right way.I
wish Ziggy the best of luck! I won't watch him play, and I'll try
real hard to wait until Monday to read about how he did. He will probably bring
more people into the light of the Gospel than I have, due to his stature. How
it all plays out, I don't know. All I can know for sure is what I think is
right and try to do that.
Is it OK to observe my Sabbath on a Saturday or on a Monday? Just asking.
at Herbert Gravy - Jewish people observe their Sabbath on Saturday although they
don't accept Jesus Christ as the Savior. Because Jesus Christ is the
Savior of the world, because salvation is available only through Him, and
because He has said he wants his present Sabbath to be on Sunday, it seems to me
like a bad idea to want to choose another day to have the Sabbath.I've heard of the LDS Church authorizing small groups of people in the
Middle East to have a different day of the week for their Sabbath. And of course, there are other commandments that are more important and more
serious than the Sabbath Day, so a person could abstain from secular work on the
Sabbath but violate many other commandments on the other days of the week. A
person could miss the sacrament ordinance on Sunday but attend the temple on
other days of the week.But I think its a far safer approach to stick
with what the church does. If your local LDS congregation has Sunday for its
Sabbath and its sacrament meeting, you'd be much better off to correlate
your personal Sabbath with that one.
I'm as happy as the next guy for Ziggy. His is a great story, and I wish
him nothing but the best in his future, while in the NFL and after he quits
playing football.But I'm not sure that his story is
"evidence BYU football independence is working." His talent and story
would have caught national attention, NFL scouts would have known about him,
even if BYU was still playing in the MWC.Ziggy's success, and
BYU's independent status aren't as related as the author suggests.
WiscougarAs someone who has watched him and his development closely I can
tell you that the coaching at BYU did a masterful job with him. Y
Grad / Y DadHe was very nearly a different athlete at the start of the
season and at the end. Idiots think he was born that way. He was developed, and
just as fast as he could go. I'm just wondering...if the byu
coaching staff gets the credit for the success of a player who was not recruited
by Mendenhall and played less than two years; who gets the blame for the dozens
of players recruited by Bronco and spent 4-5 years in the byu program and never
got the slightest sniff at the NFL? Extolling Mendenhall's
successes during the off season is great fun but we have all seen what byu fans
do the first time Mendenhall utters those now familiar words..."we
didn't execute at a high enough level."
I would LOVE to see caleb turn down 18.5 million dollars over 5-years with an
11.9 million dollar signing bonus (plus a deal with Nike) just because it would
require him to work on the Sabbath. It's easy to talk big on a message
board, but I'm betting if you wouldn't have the same attitude if you
were sitting at a table with that contract staring you in the face....
@CalebTo a Professional athlete, his job is essential to him and is
family.As much so as any policeman, doctor, nurse or fireman.It's not up to you to determine who passes the test.And
here's a little secret, the LDS Church even accepts the tithes and
offerings from those pro athletes as well.You're being
judgmental and it is without foundation.The late great Bruce R. McKonkie
once said.."The Church ahs no need for the fanatic"Tread carefully.
I was just on Rivals to get a status on how recruiting classes for Pac-12 teams
are shaping up. I scrolled way down the list and noticed that byu has five
recruits on board and is ranked #54. So I looked up byu's 2013 recruiting
class and, oh my goodness...I'm sorry, Mr. Teeples...seems to
me THAT is the real measure of how well independence is working.
Success follows the player, not the program. This kid could have come from Utah
State and they'd be fawning over him.Money is no justification
junkgeek"Success follows the player, not the program."So why are players constantly identified by the college and professional
teams they played for? And why are college and professional teams
constantly identified by the players who played for those teams?
MyPerspectiveSalt Lake City, UTFair critique, but you are
using an exaggeration to make your point:"I'm just
wondering...if the byu coaching staff gets [implied ALL] the credit for the
success of a player who was not recruited by Mendenhall and played less than two
years; who gets the blame for the dozens of players recruited by Bronco and
spent 4-5 years in the byu program and never got the slightest sniff at the
NFL?"Neither I nor anyone else said or implied that Bronco
deserves ALL the credit, but we have defended against those who insist that he
deserves NONE of the credit, or worse, that he deserves blame for holding Ziggy
back.As to the second point, ask the people who insist on trumpeting
that BYU can only get zero to two star cast-offs. I would guess that Bronco
also deserves some credit for doing as well as he does with what he is able to
recruit.With all the NFL talent that Utah has produced, who gets the
credit for their underperformance these past two seasons, victories against BYU
junkgeek"Success follows the player, not the program."So you're saying that Weber State can take credit for all of the
NFL players who played for BYU and Utah and Utah St and USC and Alabama and
Notre Dame and Texas, because those players would have been just as successful
if they'd played at Weber State?
Y Grad / Y Dad:It was YOU who introduced the
exaggeration..."[implied ALL]"However, since you brought it
up...read the posts on this thread and then tell me your exaggeration is not
correct. The Utes have indeed put a lot of players in the NFL the
last several years which account, in large measure their 2 (two) BSC wins and
invitation to an elite conference. Yes, the result last year was disappointing
but hey, it's a new year and we'll see what happens. Win or lose, the
Pac-12 is a fantastic experience...you'll just have to take our word for
MyPerspectiveSalt Lake City, UTOkay, the exaggeration, whether
implied by you or not, is incorrect. Here's something you can
take my word for: if the Utes under perform this year like they did last year,
Coach Wittingham will be one of the best ex coaches you ever had. Part of
playing with the big boys is a low tolerance for losing. And big boy spin
doesn't get it done. By the way, nice dodging the question.
All that talent going to waste. Such a shame.
MyPerspective"The Utes have indeed put a lot of players in the
NFL the last several years which account, in large measure their 2 (two) BSC
wins and invitation to an elite conference."Utah's NFL
players may have helped the Utes win a couple of bcs bowls, but Utah's
invitation to the PAC had nothing to do with those bcs wins.Colorado's five-year record preceding their invitation to the PAC BEFORE
Utah was invited is proof of that:2005: 7-62006: 2-102007: 6-72008: 5-72009: 3-9Total: 23-39
Just to further clarify, I don't mean it was wrong to imply that you
exaggerated. I mean to say that the exaggeration implied, or declared, by so
many Ute fans here on this story, that somehow we BYU fans think Bronco should
get ALL or even MOST of the credit is wrong. But why should we
think you (all) would imply that? Do we not regularly hear that Coach Whit has
placed (insert number here) players in the NFL, Bronco has not, therefore Utah
is clearly superior to BYU, a state-funded education is better than one
supported with tithing, and the sun never shines in Provo?Well, I
may have exaggerated a little there...
Y's Little Brother:You will find out the hard way this year that BYU
is NOT going in the opposite direction of Utah. You are going into the hardest
schedule in school history. You MUST have talent and depth to compete against
better teams and you do not have that. Don't get me wrong, my Utes
don't have the talent and depth to compete for the Pac 12 championship but
they have steadily been building their depth and getting better talent in
recruiting classes. Don't believe me? Just check the numbers buddy, Utah
has averaged a 36 ranked class the past two years and BYU has average a 65
ranked class. If you think your less talented squads are going to propel BYU
football closer to a BCS game than Utah, then you need to wake up and smell the
Roses. Utah went 8-5 in 2012 and pulled in a 28 ranked class. BYU went 10-3 and
pulled in a 61 rated class according to RIVALs. The only thing that has gone in
the "opposite direction" is the talent and recruiting. Don't
believe that more talent equals more wins? Just look at the top 5 teams