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Utah

Got gun? Senate favors bill saying you don't need permit

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  • lket Bluffdale, UT
    March 12, 2013 12:06 p.m.

    silly law to make only worse thing they are doing is moving the prison so they and a few people can make a lot of money and the tax payers will pay for their pofit in higher transport fee's and new construction. the money for transporting prisoners will be huge. and they will still transport patients to the u hospital so gasoline bills will be higher. only the people directly in the bussiness there will see money. tax will not come because they give bussinesses sweet deals to cvome to utah. we the tax payers will pay for it.

  • Ett Salt Lake City, UT
    March 12, 2013 12:08 p.m.

    As someone who carried a firearm on the job, I can say that allowing concealed carry without permit is unlikely to cause any more issues than open carry does now. The majority of gun owners are hesitant to carry in public for many valid reasons. They aren't looking to get into conflicts. The main reason for carry is self-protection. Pulling out a firearm with intent to use it, isn't something most people do easily. All the training does, is make sure one knows basic safety rules and proper use of the weapon. Most owners already know all this. It does nothing to train people how to react to danger. You'll learn how to shoot, but not when. The driving analogy is ludicrous. People drive every day and collisions still happen. When's the last time you had to draw a weapon and fire it? In 19 years on the job, I never had to fire once, although I had to draw one several times. Often times, the sight of a gun ends the need to use it. You're way more likely to hurt someone with your car.

  • Something to think about Ogden, UT
    March 12, 2013 12:24 p.m.

    re: ett I disagree with one of your points...some do look for conflict. I had a buddy who stopped to help with a 'road rage' incident between a man and a woman. The jerk involved with that event'flashed' a gun from out of his car. What about him? I feel better knowing he can carry a gun anywhere.

    I'd think you'd be more concerned with casual citizens carrying guns. The more there on the street the more likely to see one used incorrectly.

  • LVIS Salt Lake City, UT
    March 12, 2013 12:36 p.m.

    From the article - Sen. Karen Mayne, D-Salt Lake City: Guns, she said, are deadly. "And if you pick up something that's deadly, you better be skilled at it or leave it alone."

    I don't disagree with you, Senator Mayne. However, what relevancy does this have to the concealed vs open-carry debate? If I am allowed to carry a gun openly, how does putting a sweater on over it, or untucking my shirt, etc., make it more dangerous? Please explain that to me.

  • mcclark Salt Lake City, UT
    March 12, 2013 12:55 p.m.

    So any paranoid, untrained fool can carry a gun. Yeah, I feel so much safer.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 12, 2013 12:54 p.m.

    "The more there on the street the more likely to see one used incorrectly."

    Here's 'Something [else] To Think About:

    The "blood in the street" fear is STILL trotted out by gun-grabbers and politicians who don't trust the law-abiding electorate. It didn't prove true when Utah went from discretionary to "shall issue" concealed carry, nor when Arizona, Alaska and Wyoming adopted so-called "constitutional" carry legislation like this. The fact is, violent crime rates went down.

    Robert Heinlein was right: "An armed society is a polite society." But don't hold your breath waiting for the gun-grabbers and pandering politicians to admit it.

  • Obama10 SYRACUSE, UT
    March 12, 2013 1:02 p.m.

    So if an over-aggressive police officer in Vernal didn't let the badge and power go to his head by hassling a hunter during a rain storm, then this would have been a non-issue. No wonder we need a law to dictate every iota of our life, because some police officer with a big ego couldn't use the brain god gave him to correctly assess a "threat" from a hunter in a rain storm. Nothing like "to serve and protect" to "hassle and intimidate".

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    March 12, 2013 1:09 p.m.

    Who more paranoid, and doesn't trust his fellow man...

    The man who calmly goes about his daily business, without fear, trusting his neighbor, and building a better free-er Society?

    or

    The man who constantly suspects EVERYONE, who trust No-one, who lives in perpetual fear and anxiety, mentally tracks and targets ANYONE, including his neighbors, always feeling persecuted or inferior and must therefore hermit away - a self made prisoner - from Society?

  • radically_independent Orem, Utah
    March 12, 2013 1:17 p.m.

    I was pulled over in Provo because an officer thought my motorcycle was too loud. Turns out, after about an hour of "harassment" and another officer coming to check, that my bike was legal. I am wonder if the dear congressperson in Vernal would please raise a bill making it illegal for cops to harass people on motorcycles....

    After all, my motorcycle is a protect form of free speech.

    Exactly how many people have been "harassed" necessitating a law to protect them? An considering a gun without a round chambered to be "unloaded".... are you kidding me? I don't get what problem these people actually think they are solving. Of all the issues Utah needs to address.... this was on the top of the legislative calendar... not fixing the continuous water issues. Not fixing the problems in education. Not fixing the sprawling - and in some areas hardly planned growth. This was a top priority.

    Any joe blow can now walk into a theatre with a loaded weapon.... and this improves public safety and protects rights?

  • UTAH Bill Salt Lake City, UT
    March 12, 2013 1:22 p.m.

    If guns make us safer, why aren't we the safest country in the world?

  • Elcapitan Ivins, UT
    March 12, 2013 1:23 p.m.

    John in SLC

    You make a valid point. I can see no problem with open or conceal carry by citizens as long as we have our present laws. Criminals, carry cocealed without a permit,and others who choose to violate the present laws do so also. So what does it matter. I worry however about the casualness of some of the citizenry in keeping loaded firearms around their homes and work where they can be accesed by children and other irresponsible people, that could bring on some problems. Question, when did you last hear of anyone being arrested for concealing a concealed firearm illegally?

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 12, 2013 2:00 p.m.

    Elcapitan:

    Read State v. Williams, 636 P.2d 1092 (Utah 1981), for an history lesson on one such arrest. That case was part of the impetus for the state legislature to get realistic.

    As far as your worry that irresponsible people might misuse a constitutional right, I guess every constitutional right carries risks. But test isn't required to exercise a constitutional right. Otherwise we wouldn't have uniformed and star-struck voters electing unqualified politicians, or people shouting unpopular sentiments, or cops ignoring warrants, or people building homes in flood plains or letting their kids play unattended in swimming pools, etc.

    Frankly, I worry about pandering politicians and gadfly do-gooders who try to inhibit my rights because they THINK that I MIGHT be stupid.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 12, 2013 2:20 p.m.

    UTAH Bill:

    Fact is, guns are just tools. But if you believe strict gun prohibitions make you safer, I guess you'll be leaving Utah and moving to Chicago or Washington, D.C. soon. Private handgun ownership by law-abiding citizens remains incredibly difficult there (despite the Supreme Court's rulings). They are the safest cities in the U.S., right?

    Oh, . . . wait.

    It's people with the right tools to protect themselves that make us all safer.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    March 12, 2013 3:07 p.m.

    Are they bringing back dueling too? Should tote on hip to quick draw and kill your opponent quicker. Can you attach an assault firearm to your pickup truck? Will be easy to get a citizen posse to make us safer.

  • DN Subscriber Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 12, 2013 3:47 p.m.

    The "Constitutional Carry" issue is about good guys having to get a permission slip to carry a legal self defense tool. HB76 is a good bill and should be passed and signed by the Governor.

    The bad guys don't care about any laws, and don't bother with permits! Thus, the current permit requirement does NOT disarm criminals, only good guys.

    Constitutional carry is not some crazy idea filled with unknown dangers or promoting random gunfire. Vermont has had this forever, Alaska for 10 years, Arizona for 3 years and Wyoming for 2 years with ZERO problems. And, other states are considering adopting it too.

    Pass the bill!

  • Anti Government Alpine, UT
    March 12, 2013 3:57 p.m.

    I strongly support the right to bear arms.

    Many of the most dangerous cities in the USA have the most restrictive gun laws so the innocent are left with no guns and the criminals are gunning down record numbers of people in cities like Chicago.

    All that being said I'm not sure its a good idea to let criminals/unstable people legally conceal and carry guns around.

    Need to solve the exception/basis for the law without upsetting the apple cart. That said I don't think someone should be harassed because it is raining and they put on a raincoat that happens to cover their gun either. What are you supposed to do? Just strap the gun over the coat out in the rain? That doesn't work.

    So tired of law enforcement/judges who can't step back and apply some reasonable judgement to situations like this. Quit bothering people that aren't causing a problem to begin with. Go solve some real crime.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    March 12, 2013 4:16 p.m.

    "....Fact is, guns are just tools....."
    ______________________________

    That was true once upon a time. Settlers going west in the 19th century brought guns with them along with an ax, a plow, a shovel, and other implements of necessity for every day living. They took care of their tools which they needed to take care of them. They were aware of the hazards of careless handling.

    That was then. Today, very few people really need a gun. They just want one. What was once a tool is now an item of sporting equipment, a status symbol, a means of feeling a sense of personal empowerment, something to keep in the glove compartment or under the front seat for ‘just in case,’ or something to just hold in their hands while standing in front of the bedroom mirror admiring what a tough guy looks like.

    Add a provision to the Utah law. For every murder victim killed by a concealed weapon, the state of Utah pays $5 million to the victim’s next of kin. That would show that the lawmaker’s hearts are in the right place.

  • JWB Kaysville, UT
    March 12, 2013 4:26 p.m.

    Since there are reciprocal states, hopefully, this would not allow all the criminals in those other reciprocal states to come here and do whatever they wanted.

    They would find a way for that to happen and Washington County wouldn't be the highest number of permits, since you wouldn't need a permit.

    The liberals in the Federal government would force us to be at least as effective by passing a national law that would override ours. It seems the Governor may be right on this one, just let it be.

    The Feds would love to push the law of reciprocity with us and we would lose what we have even now. Hopefully, the Senate will rethink this process in two days. The Governor has given in before to the commonsense approach.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    March 12, 2013 4:23 p.m.

    People do have the 2nd Ammendment right to Bear Arms (Carry guns). However many people have expressed that if they go into a store and see someone carrying a gun this makes them uncomfortable.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    March 12, 2013 4:30 p.m.

    If this law is passed, it would be good if Utah would put on their website videos teaching people the legal and safe use of guns. I have a permit to carry and even I would benefit be watching such videos as a refresher.

  • TruetoBlue logan, UT
    March 12, 2013 4:31 p.m.

    I feel so much safer knowing that people who haven't the faintest clue what they're doing can buy a gun and accidentally kill multiple people. Hmmm... I sense a mistake.

  • Sophie 62 spring city, UT
    March 12, 2013 4:39 p.m.

    If you want to drive a potentially deadly vehicle, car, truck, whatever, you have to have a license that shows you at least have a basic understanding of how to do so. Your vehicle has to be registered. It has to pass safety inspections.
    Why should things be different with guns?
    I can tell you, I do not feel safer knowing that any belligerent guy can walk around with a gun in his pocket.
    There are going to be more gun tragedies in this state if such a law passes.
    But our fine legislators will say it isn't THEIR fault.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    March 12, 2013 4:43 p.m.

    @JohninSLC
    "But if you believe strict gun prohibitions make you safer"

    Seems to be the case in Canada, the UK, Sweden, Norway, France, Germany, Japan...

  • doingmyway Salem, UT
    March 12, 2013 4:51 p.m.

    If a person is so afraid of society that they think they need to pack a gun at all time's is definately someone that I don't want to be around. These same paranoid people will carry their guns to church, go figure!

  • TOO Sanpete, UT
    March 12, 2013 5:00 p.m.

    I have mixed feelings on this one.

    1. Law breakers and nut cases aren't going to obey the law anyways, so this doesn't apply to them. They will carry now whether they have a permit or not.

    2. You will now have more people carrying guns, but without going through a class to teach them how to handle a firearm. If you've never used one before, they can be confusing depending on what kind you get. I hope that if people just go out and buy, they at least take responsibility and use it over and over again with practice before they actually decide to carry it.

  • Keith1943 Spring City, UT
    March 12, 2013 5:00 p.m.

    I've had a CFP for a couple of years. Whether "open" or "concealed", it doesn't matter to me. I will say however, it is obvious that we are safer when we are armed. The fact that schools are "gun free zones" and that's where the wackos go, is evidence of that. Had someone in the theater in Aurora, Colorado, had a firearm, the guy would have been taken out before he had a chance to kill 70 people. The same applies with the school shootings. While I'm all for less government oversight in our lives (I don't trust them one iota), I believe the training is valuable and should be required for all gun owners. I wouldn't suggest refresher classes every five years however. But, I would be supportive of "everyone" who owns a gun, being required to take the class. When you buy a gun, you show your proof of having been trained. The class covers use, handling and safety and Utah State law; as well as, learning what your rights and limitations are. As was pointed out, you don't hand over the car keys to someone who's not received adequate training.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    March 12, 2013 5:06 p.m.

    To all the people who have said that seeing a guy carrying a gun in public in plain sight makes you feel uneasy, this law will benefit you by allowing those without permits to not carry openly.

    Criminals are already allowed to carry baseball bats in the open or concealed. They are allowed to carry acid, or gasoline and matches if they wish.

    The point is this law will not make you less safe.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    March 12, 2013 5:15 p.m.

    A new study released in the Journal of the American Medical Assoc.,ranked all 50 states based on the number of gun laws on the books, which fell under five broad categories: curb firearm trafficking, strengthen background checks, improve child safety, ban military-style assault weapons, and restrict guns in public places. The states were divided into four groups based on their legislative score, 0 to 28. Then the study applied gun-related death data from 2007 to 2010 provided by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

    Overall, the states with the most laws had a 42 percent lower gun-death rate than states with the least number of laws.

    Since 1996, the CDC has been explicitly barred by Congress from researching the causes and prevention of gun violence as a public-health issue. Some conservative lawmakers believed that antigun researchers would politicize the data. In an executive order on Jan. 16, President Obama directed the CDC to study the best ways to reduce gun violence.

    But researchers will have to wait to see if Congress goes on to appropriate funds for gun violence research.

  • yarrlydarb Ogden, UT
    March 12, 2013 6:36 p.m.

    This is idiosy of which Republicans are the epitome! There as also paranoid.

  • Steve G. NORTH SALT LAKE, UT
    March 12, 2013 9:24 p.m.

    I'm glad to see the Governor Herbert is showing some sense on this issue. Like he says "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". People need the training that comes with the permit.

  • Brian T Mapleton, UT
    March 13, 2013 12:26 a.m.

    So, let me get this straight: Under current Utah law, no permit or training is required to openly carry a gun, but it is illegal for that same person to conceal the weapon? Sorry, I don't get it. How does concealing the weapon make this person more dangerous? Wouldn't it make the people around them on the street more comfortable by not having to see it? Why should concealing a weapon you are already allowed to carry be a crime? Perhaps I am too trusting... but I trust the people who carry a gun to understand that it is a deadly weapon that if not properly used could result in their own serious injury, death or imprisonment if it is misused. I don't see how allowing people who can already legally carry the weapon to conceal it will suddenly make us less safe. One last thing regarding the person quoted in the article as saying they keep a baseball bat by their bed: What if the intruder has a gun (unlikely, I know, but what if...)?

  • Brian T Mapleton, UT
    March 13, 2013 12:32 a.m.

    @Open Minded Mormon: If you are interested in open mindedness, please consider: These two extremes are not the only choices (blissful ignorance/naivete vs perpetual fear and anxiety). It is conceivable that a person carrying a gun would be less paranoid knowing that if a situation should arise they are prepared to defend themselves. Carrying a gun does not indicate paranoia and distrust of EVERYONE, to include mentally targeting ANYONE even your neighbors. Carrying a gun does not mean you feel persecuted and/or inferior and hermit yourself away from society. All children should enjoy a life of blissful ignorance and safety. Adults should recognize that there is, in fact, evil in this world and it's not crazy or paranoid to want to be able to protect yourself.

  • Sophie 62 spring city, UT
    March 13, 2013 9:13 a.m.

    It amazes me that so many pro-gun people assume that everybody who wants to carry a gun around are all just nice, easy-going, pleasant, smart, reasonable people.
    That is a fantasy.
    Some people are reasonable whether they have a gun in their possession or not. Others are fools who have no more business with a gun than a two-year old does. In fact a two-year-old might be more sensible.
    For a revealing look at how some people behave, watch how they drive.
    Are those bellligerant characters the kind of people you feel safe with?
    Some of those crazy drivers will be concealing a weapon with no more qualification than their legal right to do so, if this law passes.
    This law is not about being wise, it's about thumbing their collective noses at the governmemt and especially the President and his 'librul' cohorts, as they see it. The thought of doing that is so intoxicatng that our illustrious legislators are completely ignoring the statistics on gun deaths of all sorts just to show people of more moderate persuasion that they won't be told what to do with their sacred gun rights.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    March 13, 2013 9:36 a.m.

    You have to hide drink bottles behind curtain and have a gun in certain restaurants? You are free to get a 45 pistol to carry around to the store where you cannot buy a bottle of wine? When does the Queen of Hearts issue these edicts?

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    March 13, 2013 9:38 a.m.

    Our patriot forefathers also could challenge another person to a duel. THis was legal under common law. Are there going to be area's designated for dueling?

  • Sophie 62 spring city, UT
    March 13, 2013 9:41 a.m.

    It isn't just this new law that's the problem, as some people have pointed out. It's the whole any-fool-can-tote-a-gun with no permit required that's the real problem. Some people are sensible, whether it's driving a vehicle or carrying a gun. Other people are not.
    Completely unnecessary tragedies are going to happen because of the lack of wisdom about guns and people.
    Just because someone has the legal right to do something, doesn't mean they should.
    Thank you, Republican legislators, for spending your limited time on this issue instead of focusing on what should be your real tasks. Thank you for making Utah a less safe place to live. Your actions are appalling.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    March 13, 2013 10:38 a.m.

    "An armed society is a polite society."

    Or Fear of Death make people more polite...More Fearmongering from the right wing.

  • m.g. scott LAYTON, UT
    March 13, 2013 11:20 a.m.

    To read some of these posts you'd think that states like Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, ect were having wild west shootouts all the time. Truth is, these legal to carry states seem to have much less illegal gun problems than some of the most restrictive anti gun states. That having been said, I for one do think that a training course, and background check and such are a good idea for gun owners. Just like I'd prefer to know that some teenager who was just starting to drive had taken drivers ed at school.

    P.S. We used to have a gun club at my middle-school in California which taught important things about gun safety and use. Do they have that kind of thing anymore? If not they should.

  • shakespeare's fool Pleasant Grove, UT
    March 13, 2013 12:19 p.m.

    This Bill is going to make a lot of Concealed Carry instructors sad. Now people might concealed carry with out paying them money. If you are going to allow anyone to carry a weapon then at least change the concealed weapons class to include gun training too. That way, we can differentiate between those who took absolutely NO effort and those who took a little effort. Better yet, pass a Bill that makes every adult a "law enforcement officer". Then issue us all M16's. Yes, do that. Please....

  • Nelson D Garland, UT
    March 13, 2013 1:40 p.m.

    Plenty of people are licensed to drive, this does not mean that they know anything about their vehicle. How many licensed drivers do you see driving irresponsibly on a daily basis? Don't fool yourself, a vehicle is a deadly weapon, and an inexperienced, licensed driver can do more harm and injure many more people than an inexperienced licensed, or unlicensed gun owner.

  • Captain Green Heber City, UT
    March 13, 2013 2:23 p.m.

    More guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens makes society safer--- in fact there is a 100% correlation. That statistic alone should convince us to make carry easier for more good citizens. Even with Constitutional Carry, purchasing a weapon would still be restricted (from the mentally incompetent, felons, etc) and we should be enforcing that part of the law, which already exists.

    It's people who have not been around guns much that fear them. But those of us who grew up with guns and carry them almost every day now, realize they are merely tools to make our lives safer. There is nothing to fear if people are careful, just like we must be with a car, a bicycle, or a knife.

    As patriotic and wise Americans we should be very supportive of any provisions which protect our God-given, fundamental, natural, unalienable, Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms... which CANNOT be infringed by our government.

  • Nelson D Garland, UT
    March 13, 2013 2:53 p.m.

    As a licensed driver, you don't drive 24/7, unless maybe you are a truck driver, and even then you may not drive 365 days a year. At any moment you may be faced with a situation where your life, the lives of your family, etc. may be placed in mortal danger. At that moment, wouldn't you want to be able to take measures to preserve your life and the lives of those you love? I believe that, in general, there are more good people than bad in the world. I would much rather have the good people armed than the bad. To say that I must be licensed and registered to defend my life is ludicrous!