The complainers really need to blame God, since it is His geologic formation of
our area that created the bowl which holds the inversions in place.But, most leftists do not believe in God, so I guess they will blame
Herbert doesn't lead. He follows....whatever business tells him to do.
There are a variety of possible solutions. Some will cost, some
will cost hardly anything.Just hoping people will "limit their
driving" is NOT a solution. (crosses fingers)CNG cars, free
UTA, higher taxes at the pump on polluted days are just a couple of ideas.Folks smarter than me probably have more.Problem is; Herbert
just issues "press releases" and hopes the issue goes away!
The idea that a complicated environmental problem that is two parts geography
and one part society, with the society element able to be further divided into a
plethora of culprits, can be solved by the simple stroke of the executive pen is
one of the great factors that has led to the modern day floundering of the
American Democratic-Republic.Too often left-leaning people smirk at
Republicans who claim to be the party of personal responsibility, but then these
"progressives" are the ones on the steps shouting, "Stop blaming
us," and asserting that absolutely nothing in this country can be solved
without increasing the scope and size of our government. I have only read of
one government in society that was able to force the type of societal change we
are discussing here, and that government did so with Centurions and
Legionnaires. No matter what issue we discuss it will always come down to
this--this country can only be saved within the walls of the average American
Home, and not in the halls Legislative hypocrisy.
“The governor does not have the authority to shut down a legally operating
business,” said Alan Matheson, Herbert’s environmental adviser and
one of several staff members made available Wednesday to counter the
criticism." Who is asking for that? Find a way to max out mass transit and
minimize car traffic, like odds and evens.
We should use caution before making big changes that ould impose tax and
business restrictions for a problem that exists for a few weeks each year, and
still might not solve the problem, which is largely due to geological conditions
that are unalterable.
Geography is only responsible for the inversions, the rest of pollution is less
complicated to solve than the governor pretends it to be.The state
and business and commuters will all have to be more tolerant of the weather and
natural weather road conditions but there is a way to greatly improve the snake
oil sales pitches the governor is offering without taxing gas or citizens to
excess.Our pollution in this valley is not emission related anymore,
that element has become irrelevant and California is proof of that.The particulate matter salt, mud, dirt, and excessive use of commercially
registered vehicles and vehicles used in business are not maintained to
standards and cleanliness when tracking mud onto the roads. Vehicles of 1 ton
and larger are granted loose emission standards and enforcment. The I-15 is the
base culprit of our pollution where salt in winter melts snow and ice to water
that traps dirt, mud, tire debris from drainage and high speed vehicles kick up
this debris like an old dusty desert roads in the summer. You can see these dust
clouds for miles and this is the same effect on our I-15 corridor.
I'm sorry, but this protest is nearly worthless, and folks like Mr. Ingwell
who shout tritely for solutions from heads of state who have no real authority
on the matter do nothing to help. We cause the air quality problem here, each
and every one of us who burns petroleum products to get around and heat our
homes. I dislike Governor Herbert's environmental record, but he can't
do much about this. It's pathetic that we willingly foul our
own nest during the inversions, but unless we completely shut down our normal
way of life for weeks at a time, it's inevitable. Shutting down refineries
& industry would help--some. But cost--a lot. Pubic transit is rather
inefficient for most of us and simply cannot get me where I need to go for work.
Drive I must. I despise the air quality around here but am pragmatic enough to
know that this place would have to grind to a halt to prevent it during these
multi-week inversions. God cursed this place in winter. If I or a
child of mine had a respiratory weakness, I would seriously consider moving out
of this state.
re: Marxist“The governor does not have the authority to shut
down a legally operating business,” -Who is asking for that?Carl Ingwell and company are asking for that. When they say "shut
down refineries when the air is bad" they are demanding that a legally
operating business is shut downn.
I have a home in the Heber Valley but am living in Beijing China right now. I
never thought much about air pollution until moving here. Believe me when I say
that you don't want air pollution to get out of hand. If it is getting
worse then measures need to be taken by private and public interest to curb it.
It is not the government's duty to clean it up. That is what is
supposed to be the difference between China and the USA. We the people are in
charge of the destiny of our country not the government. Let's not forget
it. If we the people are making the air dirty and if we the people really want
cleaner air then let's get on the stick and get it done. It is not entirely
correct to say that it is the mountains or whatever that causes it, is it? How
much pollution was there in 1847 or even 1947. Working together we can clean it
up by involving our government representatives not handing them the job and our
Do nothing. Please governor. Stick to your guns and do absolutely nothing.
Don't look to other states that have had similar problems and found
workable resolutions. Don't try to get any science based discussion around
atmospheric trends, causes, and possible preventative measures. Do nothing.
Please. Then see how many businesses start moving elsewhere over the
next five years. See how many businesses from out of state find Utah an
attractive place to bring their company. See how many people relocate to other
states for health reasons. See how many tourists continue to flock to Utah to
ski in the pretty grey snow.But by all means, please do nothing.
Don't even try.
What they didn't report was that ever single one of these protesters showed
up in their gasoline, diesel fuel cars and trucks.
We are planning to move from the Salt Lake area when we retire. We are tired of
having difficulty breathing. We live in an area where we can walk to stores,
schools, library, post office etc. The air is so nasty, it is difficult to
breath while walking.
I fail to understand why commenters on this board think clean air is a Democrat
issue. Shouldn't everyone be fighting for clean air? Shouldn't government regulators only allow refineries etc to operate on
good air days??Shouldn't government raise taxes on gasoline during
bad air days?Shouldn't government allow driving only on odd and even
days during high pollution times??Shouldn't private citizens refrain
from using their wood burning stoves during bad air days?Shouldn't
private citizens car pool on high pollution days?Shouldn't private
citizens leave their cars in the garage on bad air days?It seems
that so many fail to see that this air is killing us. So many in Utah are
against smoking a cigarette now and then, but for some reason they feel
it's ok if they breathe in this air 24/7???
“We want clean air NOW!” or we’re going to stomp our feet and
call you names. No “real world solutions” were provided by the
group. Just a lot of whining, name calling and finger pointing. Blasted Governor
anyway...The statistics presented at the "whine in" show
that 57 percent of the air pollution is caused by vehicles, 32 percent comes
from area sources such as small businesses, homes and other sources. Only 11%
from local industry. Yet the complainers are “tired of Herbert telling
people to get out of their cars and laying the problem on the doorstep of
individuals, when more action and leadership is needed from him.”Like it or not, until we the people change our personal lifestyles, the
problem will continue. Geography promises that.How about the
loudest complainers come up with some real viable solutions. Something
concrete. More than just a nebulous "increase taxes and shut down
industry". Lay out a specific plan and then present it, like grownups. Do
something constructive with it. Do some real homework and get the support of
those around you, but with a viable solution, not for a whine fest.
@DN Subscriber: Boy, I'd really like to see the statistics about most
"leftists" not believing in God!
The state certainly has had no problem inserting itself into private business
affairs in other areas of public health. It has required all businesses to
exclude smoking customers from their premises. It has forced restaurants to
make expensive architectural modifications to prevent children from being
exposed to the corrupting sight of cocktail preparation. It has even socialized
an entire sector of the economy to control liquor distribution and sales.
(Another state, Kansas, has gone as far as dictating the dimensions of rooms and
thermostat setttings of abortion providers.) The precedents are there. The
issue is not whether the state can intervene in private enterprise to protect
public health. That has been shown. It is all about political will and whose
interests are to be protected, public health or business?Why
don't we adopt the state's air quality strategy of voluntary
compliance and apply it to other issues? Instead of laws against bank robbery,
we could just encourage people not to rob banks (at least on days when there are
have been excessively high numbers of robberies). Instead of having legal
limits on blood alcohol levels for drivers, we could just ask people not to
I am appalled by the laissez faire attitudes on this page. Is Utah's
geography different? Yes. And do these differences cause the bad air quality?
ABSOLUTELY NOT! We do. Can't we all see that what we are doing to our
planet offends God? We are killing ourselves by not changing our lifestyle. We
are destroying nature. Until we start seeing our polluting actions as sinful, I
fear things will continue to get worse.
Re: ". . . she wondered aloud at how effective it would be at getting people
out of their cars and actually changing their personal ethic."Who is she to even wonder how best to force us out of our cars?That's the real problem with liberals in government. They can't
discuss, persuade, even harangue, with considering the next step -- who to FORCE
their will on us.
Public transit is not, and will never be as convenient as driving yourself.
However personal vehicle use is where the most effect can be achieved. In this
electronic age many people could work from home, and I believe significant
improvement could be made if business were encouraged/required/rewarded to allow
them to do so.
Question: How did these protesters get to the rally? Did they ride bikes or
take mass transit? No, they came in a bunch of cars - probably very old cars
getting poor mpg since this was basically a bunch of unemployed college kids -
on a red air quality day. In other words, their response to the call to avoid
unnecessary driving was....to do a bunch of unnecessary driving. Way to
preserve our air quality, guys!
Can we form this as a pro-life discussion? Certainly Governor Herbert and a
majority of the legislature are pro-life. And this gunky air is absolutely
harming (even killing) both the born and unborn. So can we appeal to the
pro-life side of Utah's government to do something substantive to improve
Utah's air quality?
I bet all of these people drove separate cars to this function. Way to make a
I don't think anyone on this board thinks clean air is a Democrat issue.
What are considered Democrat issues are *some* of the non-viable
"solutions" proposed. Worse yet, expecting that they don't have
personal responsibility--“We want him to step up and give us real world
solutions”; “We are sick of him pointing the finger at us”--is
also, rightly or wrongly, considered a Democrat issue. Republicans can be more
proactive at coming up with workable solutions that would not appeal to the
personal-liberty crowd, and Democrats can be more willing to take responsibility
for their own actions rather than expecting someone else to fix things for them.
‘Studies link air pollution to increased risk of strokes and
dementia’ – by Amy Joi O’Donoghue – Deseret news –
02/15/12 ‘SALT LAKE CITY — Three new studies that
underscore the link between bad air quality and significant health risks such as
stroke, heart attacks and dementia suggest there is no safe level of air
pollution and that more needs to be done to control the problem.’
'EPA inventory shows Utah's sources of greenhouse gas' - By Amy
Joi O'Donoghue - 02/05/13 - Published by the Deseret News
'WASHINGTON — The nation's power plants continue to be the
single largest stationary source of greenhouse gas emissions, according to new
information released Tuesday by the Environmental Protection Agency.'
These people who want the governor to fix the problem are fooling them selves,
wasting gas and creating more pollution to go to the capital to protest, and
wasting theirs and the press's time. The governor is not the source of the
pollution. It is all of us, and our cars, and our home heat.If these
people really cared, they would protest the drivers. Perhaps they could stay in
their own neighborhoods organizing carpools, or holding up signs by busy roads
saying things like:Is this trip really necessary?Please
share the unused seats in your car.Scrape, don't idle.Turn down your heat at home.Then they would be doing something
helpful.This protest is a spoiled child temper tantrum.
If all businesses went to rotaintg schedule like four 10's or nine 9's
we would eliminate many commute days from the Provo to SLC and Ogden to SLC
cummutes. Trust me the air would significantly improve. The reason this is not
being done is purely the refusal of businesses to do so.
Can we all stop assuming that people at the rally drove in individual cars? I
don't think that's fair or productive to a very important
If all businesses would go to rotaing schedules of four 10's or nine
9's and have alternate days off for employees we would see a significant
decrease in the number of commutes along the Wasatch Front. The air would
improve significantly. The reasons businesses won't do this is simply they
do not want to. The excuses run the gamut from increased liability to reduced
production from employees. All unproven and all just excuses. This is really an
easy fix and one that would strengthen the areas reputation for business.
Nothing that half of you moving off the Wasatch Front wouldn't cure. The
prison is the least polluting population and you waint to move it. Move the U
its populationi Is the most polluting.
I'm glad to hear that some people are planning on moving out, that will
help. but I wonder how many of those protesters drove their cars up to the
capitol in order to ask the government to solve this natural problem? Maybe
they could legislate on how much snow should fall during a given storm as well.
I didn't realize the Gov. of Utah had the power to move the mountain ranges
when they get inconvient. Fascinating!!!
To all those who keep saying you bet they all drove individually. Afterward, rally participants said they made it to the event in a number of
ways — walking, public transit, carpooling and yes, some drove up
individually in their cars to rally about clean air.Sometimes if you
just read the whole article, instead of assuming, you learn something. Then you
don't look foolish when commenting. I'm betting that more
drove than not, but still it clearly states in the article that some found
alternative methods of transportation.
To "Believer2" you are wrong. We can change the geography. Look at
photos from 100 years ago of the area where Kennecott is currently located.
There used to be a mountain there.Maybe the solution is to have
Kennecott or another mining operation start an open pit mine and carve away a
mountain so that when an inversion begins it form, the cold air will
"drain" out of the valley?
Require all out of state BYU & UVU students to leave their personal cars at
home...We have a transit system!
I wonder how many of the protesters drove their cars to the state capital to be
part of the pointless effort?
VST: Have you considered that SLC gal's comment might also have been
facetious? Try not to take her too seriously...
'Amanda Smith,... said offering free public transit on bad air days may
“feel good,” but she wondered aloud at how effective it would
be...“Until we start to grasp that and change how we live our lives, we
are going to have an air quality problem,”'Some of the
"...how we live our lives" is government related. Public transit is not
feasible for private industry to sponsor, only for government. "Free fare
days" wouldn't necessarily help, either. It would just encourage more
people to get out and cram onto FrontRunner for entertainment purposes. There
needs to be a balance between making the fares more affordable than driving a
two-occupant car, and more convenient and accessible to more people. That will
cost money. I think it would be more affordable in the long run to have monthly
or yearly passes be especially bargain priced. That way, even if people
don't think they will ride very often they can feel better about buying the
convenience of the pass and perhaps get their money's worth.Having to drive your car and fill a parking slot all day to ride transit makes
little sense either.
In an earlier comment I compared air pollution to robbery and drunk driving.
The differences between pollution and crime that make the comparison facetious
account for the lack of political will and the difficulty of finding a policy
solution. With robbery or DUIs, there is a single perpetrator with a single
action that is directly attributable to tangible individual harm. A law
penalizing the action (robbing, drinking) can easily affect individual behavior
(decision to rob or drive drunk) and prevent or reduce the harm.With
the inversion, the problem is created by tens of thousands of small individual
decisions and the harm, while measurable and linked, is less direct. An
emphysema death from the inversion cannot be tied to any one person's
decision to drive that day, nor does any one person's decision to drive/not
drive appreciably affect the odds of someone dying of emphysema. The harm is
diffuse and the product of collective behavior. You can’t simply penalize
driving, say, to reduce the harm, because each individual will rebut that THEIR
driving isn’t killing anyone. It also doesn't help from a policy
standpoint that the conditions that create inversions are intermittent and
There is also the problem of the overwhelming entitlment society we have created
that means I am entitled to drive my car any day I want, and justify it by
saying that doing something else is just too darn inconvenient. It must be
someone else's responsibility to resolve the issue. Certainly isn't
mine and I shouldn't have to expend any more effort than to complain about
it. (Where's my sarcasm font?)
All new state vehicles should be required to run on natural gas. Detroit should
be encouraged to sell some vehicles fixed to use natural gas and not cost an arm
and a leg. We have plenty of natural gas right here in Utah, abundant, cheap,
and wonderfully clean as it has only a tiny fraction of nitrogen oxide
emissions. Maybe other western states could also go to requiring natural gas
for their new vehicles. Perhaps the state could arrange a garage to do natural
gas conversions. I know one man did his for $1500. If the cost could be kept
down to a reasonable level the savings on gas let's say $750 per 10,000
miles would soon pay off in short order. More private owners would want natural
gas too. None of the other solutions seem very practical to me. Front Runner
and light rail require large state subsidies to keep running.
I drive for UTA. Making transit free wouldn't help much. Many riders
already have a monthly passs or a pass issued by their employer or college they
attend. I can't think of a single post secondary school along the wasatch
front that doesn't issue their students a bus pass. Some public schools
such as West High issue students monthly bus passes. UTA now has hybrid buses
in their fleet. I have noticed garbage trucks powered by Natural Gas. Grear
idea. The governor should seriously converting most state vehicles into natural
gas or propane. Counties and cities should so the same. The only exception
would be police cruisers. Come on Governor show some leadership on this issue.
@Dave D Salt Lake City is only the 123rd biggest city in the United States,
with the biggest cities being 30-40 times its size, and yet we are supposed to
believe that our air quality being the worst in the nation is solely caused by
man alone? What then is so different about how we live in Utah that causes so
much more pollution per capita?This reminds me of a demonstration I
witnessed in class about soil conservation. A map was placed at the front of
the class with percentages of soil erosion in each state. It was quickly
discovered that Arizona was off the charts in soil erosion compared to other
states and the teacher asked students to discuss why Arizona seemed to be having
such a problem with soil erosion. The conversation quickly turned to
discussions of how laissez faire attitudes in conservative states created so
many environmental problems. At the end of the class the teacher revealed that
the reason Arizona was ranked so high in soil erosion was because the Grand
Canyon was in that state.
while geology has formed the "bowl" - people are putting the pollution
in the bowl!
Tax the polluters and offer income tax credits for "green".Polluters should pay more due to the increased costs of monitoring their
pollution, health care costs, etc.Those who convert to electric heat,
electric cars, etc should get a tax credit. Money talks. If it pays
to be energy efficient and green, and costs more to pollute, it will work.Why is the state allowing open burning? Why are they not requiring
contained burning with air scrubbers? Why are more pollution control systems in
industry not being required by the State?Why is the State granting
permits for businesses to EXPAND polluting activities? How can the pollution
ever be reigned in when the State is doing this?
Brave Sir Robin:You took the word right out of my mouth, thanks. If
I was going to a rally for clean air, I would ride public transit up the hill.
Or maybe that was a green burn day they rode up in their personal vehicle eh?
If you are for clean air, buy a 100% CNG powered car. We bought our
first one about six years ago for $3500 The state was offering a $2500 tax
credit. We figured we were not out much if it didn't work out.Thank-you Governor Herbert for keeping that tax credit in place. We own four
now.All are Honda Civics. They are not swanky. But "sometimes
you need to make sacrifices for the environment." At first it was a pain.
My wife wanted to go back to a gasoline. But we got a good feeling knowing that
we were doing SOMETHING to help. CNG is much cleaner than gasoline and diesel.
CNG is a locally sourced fuel that keeps money and jobs here as opposed to
funding countries that do not like America. It is also cheaper than gasoline or
diesel. I am told that the exhaust from my car is actually cleaner than the air
in Salt Lake.State government could do more. But how are YOU
helping?Or, as Kennedy said, "Ask not what your country can do
for you, ask what you can do for your country."