I'm excited about all of the talented players officially joining the BYU
football program today and wish them much success and many happy memories during
their time at BYU.
Here's a little reality check on the whole stars system.Of the
32 5-star recruits in the entire country in 2002, how many of them eventually
became first-round draft picks in the NFL?-----Here's a clue:Of the 22 players on the All PAC 12 team for
2012, there wereZERO 5-stars and only SEVEN 4-stars; FIFTEEN of them
22 were 3- and 2-star recruits.Keep that in mind when you start
spewing all of your starry-eyed hyperbole about this year's recruiting
Rockwell,Why dont you look up the last 10 years of National
Champions and see how their recruiting classes were in the years leading up to
them winning that national championship.I'm going to go out on
a limb and claim they had better recruiting classes than byu.Coincidence you think that they won national championships and you struggled
to win WAC championships?
Thomas Shoaf was stated as running a 4.76 40 yard dash in this article. Does
anyone know if that is a real 40 time? If it is this kid is fast. To put it
into perspective, in the 2012 NFL combine, only ONE offensive lineman had a 40
time that was faster. In fact there were only 3 total who ran it in under 5
seconds. In fact that 4.76 was the 5th fastest time among TEs in the
combine.Either this kid is one athletic lineman, or deseret news
needs to be a bit more thurough in its fact checking.
@RockwellDon't worry about it. Because of the star system
emphasis, there are going to be shots taken. But that's nothing new. What
you want as a BYU fan is for these recruits to fit into the BYU mold. That is
what will validate Bronco's search for "the BYU guy". I
do place some value on stars, but it is far from an exact science. Plus BYU
players often have more talent than their stars indicate because the star value
drops off with mission commitments. That shouldn't matter to the BYU fan
because that is what they want from their players (missions). Success on the
field is key. I pay attention somewhat to the signing day thing, but
I try to take it with a a dose of unknown reality (whatever that means).
@Rockwell - And it make sense why Bronco M. doesn't care about how many
star players they are as long they show him on the field who they are. I am sure
Broco stlll like to see those Walkon Players. The question here are those
players already signed the intent that they will play 2013 and the others who
didn't sined (or Shake hand offer) that they will start their mission after
their H.S. finished (turned 18) and when done with their mission and then singed
Even as a Ute fan I agree that star rankings can be silly. Kind of like top 25
polls to be fair. Some Utah fans take shots at the star value of BYU recruits.
It's ammunition. BYU fans take shots at Utah fans when BYU is in the top
25. Here is food for thought for a small number of BYU fans. If you
are against the BCS and star system rankings, maybe you should think being
against the heisman and polls as well. Is it not all just a beauty pageant and
popularity contest?You see, too many red and blue fans take stock in
the glamour that benefits them and mock the glitz of the other rival. As a Ute
fan I am grateful to be in the PAC 12 but I can't stand BCS elitism. I also
laugh at star rankings drama. Things should be decided on the field
and not with judges. What is this gymnastics? It's like hey, we are good
because the scouts, coaches, media, and college presidents said we are. A
playoff eliminates some of this. The other goes when we stop caring about
'the Hollywood type of 'Academy Awards' for football.
Great looking class so far. Getting a lot of great looking athletes. Very
excited about the Juco players, it seems they'll be a great addition
Chris BThe PAC 10.2 has won ZERO BCS National Championships, and the
Trojans have a Top 10 recruiting class every year.I'm going out
on a limb here predicting that the Utes will NEVER have a better recruiting
class than USC.Keep your WAC smack to yourself. If the sorry Utes
had beaten the only WAC team that they played last season, U wouldn't have
spent bowl week watching bowls from the comfort of your parent's couch in
"Stars" are a joke and a gimmick for the recruiting service business. I
have watched 5-star players in Texas drop in their rating the moment they commit
to a school other than Texas, LSU, or Alabama. All of a sudden they weren't
that good any more.
I know that you're dying to know, so here's the answer to:"Of the 32 5-star recruits in the entire country in 2002, how many of them
eventually became first-round draft picks in the NFL?"THREE!That's correct. Less than 10% of those "can't miss"
5-star recruits went on to be NFL 1st round draft picks. Is it any wonder then,
that so many great college players started their college careers with only a 2-
or 3-star rating?As for the inane comments of our always
entertaining little fan from the hill, Star Lotulelei was only a 3-star recruit
and Dennis Pitta was a 0-star, walk on.
They are all at least six stars in my books.
Stars don't matter. What matters is on the field performance and that is
where BYU excels.Every year.
@Gorum The OldThomas Shoaf was stated as running a 4.76 40 yard dash
in this article. Does anyone know if that is a real 40 time? If it is this kid
is fast.--This is my friends younger brother and yes, he really is
that fast. He is one of the most athletic lineman I have ever watched and I
hope that he can build his strength and keep up his speed at BYU and he will be
a great asset for the team.
gdog3finallyComparing the stars recruit ranking system with the
college football polls is a little silly.The polls only have to rank
120 teams and poll voters have abundant opportunities to observe and grade the
top 30 or 40 teams throughout the season.That's a far different
animal from the recruiting services trying to rank tens of thousands of football
recruits based mainly on second-hand reports and video highlights. Not only
that, but it's a proven fact that the number of stars is highly influenced
by which teams are recruiting a certain player. It's not at all uncommon
for a 2-star recruit to suddenly become a 4-star recruit simply because a team
like USC starts showing interest.
Earnest, you actually made me laugh today. Thanksgdog3finally-"I
pay attention somewhat to the signing day thing, but I try to take it with a a
dose of unknown reality (whatever that means). Probably the best comment
I've seen ages...I mean that. I'll probably start using the phrase
"dose of unknown reality", there's a lot of truth to what you had
christy"...you struggled to win WAC championships?"Really?I hate to break it to U, but, if anybody struggled to win
WAC championships, it would be U!Only TWO championships in 38 years
in the conference - that's about one every two decades.It
remains to be seen whether the Utes can keep pace with that dubious distinction
in the PAC.
I see the stars aligning.
@ Rockwell, I understand where you are coming from. My comparisons have relative
connections. There are differences. You point out some of them. Other
differences could be used as well. As incorrect as star rankings can
be, they do have some merit. I haven't done the background search on this
for a few years. But even if the 10% comment you made is true, wouldn't
most coaches want a recruit that had a 10% chance of making the NFL.As for Pitta, I think his talent is obviously higher than the lack of a star
ranking. But I also think his intangibles, work ethic, and BYU's TE
development has a lot to do with this as well. I mean, yes Pitta is rocking the
NFL, but so have many other BYU TEs before him. It's not just the QBs of
old that BYU has developed. The TEs haven't had the drop off that the QBs
have in more recent years. The list is long at QB for BYU in the NFL but so are
the TEs (Todd Christensen, Chad Lewis, Itula Mili, Andrew George, Dennis Pitta,
and others I am sure I am forgetting at the moment.
The talk of stars not mattering makes little sense to me... of course they
matter! It isn't an exact science, but players with more stars are
definitely more likely to be impact players. Teams that recruit more high star
players are more likely to be the most competitive teams. Of course there are
exceptions to this (e.g. this year's Heisman winner was a three star
athlete, Boise State has competed at a high level for several years) but
generally more stars means better players and teams. Now that being
said, I fully support Bronco when he says "we don't pay attention to
stars and rankings" because BYU is a unique case. Because of missions,
honor code, etc. BYU has to recruit and develop players differently. They will
likely never have a top ten recruiting class, but that doesn't mean they
can't be a top ten team. This years class doesn't appear (on paper)
to be as impressive as other years, but with the mission change (19 to 18)
we've had to recruit more JC guys and I think things have worked out pretty
well. Go Cougs!
Independent Championships and Potato Bowls await!
@WiscougarfanI think your comments were spot on and very well
written. You were able to look at both sides of the issue objectively. Boy,
couldn't we all use that approach more? You being a BYU fan does not stop
me from noticing your solid reasoning here. Good take.BYU fans
shouldn't worry about stars if they win. There are some challenges with the
new mission age change and NCAA over signing reaction, but BYU fans should
believe this can still work in their favor. The hard work in recruiting at BYU
is based on finding the 'BYU guy type' not the star ranked guy. Sure
Bronco would like both, but a Heaps media circus is not Bronco's style.
Most years as a BYU fan when it comes down to crunch time the opposing
quarterback seems to throw lots of passes going in the direction of BYU's
defensive backfield. I've always wondered why the Cougs cannot get someone
who is fast, but also more height than the usual person. For years BYU has
short defensive backs. This recruiting day is no exception. I noticed a top
Hawaii defensive back signed today with BYU. Another big one......all of
5'10". Here we go again.
gdog3finally - Interesting post. In response I'd say the fact that
we're splitting the hairs we are says a little about where both programs
currently stand?Serious question for anyone who wishes to answer
(Chris, you're included if you can stick to the question) - Does
"recruited by" mean the player held a scholareship offer? I ask because
there are a lot of big names (Nebraska, etc.) listed by "recruited by"
but, when I check some of these recruits are two and three stars. Obviously
Kearsley could have played anywhere he wanted but, there are some others
I'd have some serious questions about. Just curious, not looking to open a
red / blue war...
The Utes know all about couch potato chip bowls!As far as the Utes
knowing about championships, not so much - no division titles, hardly any
conference championships in the last 60 years, and not even a sniff at a
national championship, ever.
The star system may be flawed but it's not completely meaningless. You
might as well say that the NFL Draft is meaningless and that there is no
difference between a first round draft pick and a seventh round draft pick. This
is somewhat true because everything is ultimately played out on the field, but
to say there is no difference is simply not true. Do you know where
stars come from for the most part? They are there based on which schools offer
you. The kids with the highest amount of stars, generally speaking, go to a lot
of camps, and are well known as far as being evaluated by most of the schools
that offered them. If a kids scholarship offers are Colorado State, Florida
International, and Hawaii versus Florida, Texas, and Michigan, there is probably
a reason for that. How big is the talent gap really? Hard to say, but you
can't convince me that there isn't a talent difference between
Michigan's recruiting class and UNLV's recruiting class. Either way, I'm excited to see how it plays out on the field and it seems
like BYU has landed some solid kids.
@Lonestar,Why dont' you let me know how Utah will do in
recruiting compared to BYU?LOL.P.S. Kansas, Duke, and
Kentucky beat you in recruiting.Yes, a 1-11 Kansas team beat you.I guess when recruits have to pick between a 1-11 BCS team and a who
cares and who cares WAC team, the choice is clear.I love BCS
@Marked it downI have a sense of humor sometimes. Even as a Ute fan
your first paragraph gave me a laugh. I have a few comments on the
second paragraph. The Utes have had a sniff. In 2008 there was a large movement
around the country. This included some sports illustrated writers and even some
of the voters (almost a fourth) who voted Utah #1.Now as for the
last 60 years. Of course BYU had had the better football program historically.
Utah has made there long overdue strides in the last 20 years or so (mainly the
last 10). The future is what matters most to all fans. If we want to
look at history, then Utah's basketball program shines. But BYU fans
don't notice this when they trash Utah's athletic program. Utah is
nowhere near honorable mention now in basketball though. However, in 2008,
Sports Illustrated (agaian) did a piece on top basketball programs of all time
and Utah was at #7. BYU football has been solid. Where they are
headed is the focus. Remembering your past has its' value. I remember
Utah's past in basketball but want them to recapture that now.
RE: Won84"Does "recruited by" mean the player held a
scholareship offer?"The recruiting services like scout and
rivals will listed "recruited by" if a school showed interest, but that
doesn't mean that they offered a scholarship. If they made an official
offer it will say as much on their recruiting page.
Chris BIt's cute that you're still so obsessed with your
big brother, but what you should really be asking yourself is "Why?"BYU and Utah only play each other TWICE in the next four years.Utah plays at least THIRTY-SIX games against PAC 10.2 foes in the same time
period.To any reasonable fan, comparing Utah's recruiting class
against the teams Utah will be playing almost 75% its games against during the
next four years would be far more relevant than worrying how U compare to an
"irrelevant, independent, former rival."Don't U have
TWICE as many games against your new rival?For somebody who
supposedly "LOVEs" bcs conferences, you spend precious little time in
All I want to know is who is going to kick the ball next season??
"Of the 32 5-star recruits in the entire country in 2002, how many of them
eventually became first-round draft picks in the NFL?"THREE!How about this, 'How many 5-star recruits participated in Super
Bowl XLVII?"Answer: FourBoth QBs were 3-star guys and
Jacoby Jones and Dennis Pitta both were 0-star guys in high school.Whether or not this is high-star class, I am impressed by how many all-state
guys they got from the western United States.
Don't know what is sadder, Chris B.'s comments or all the time Cougar
"fan" spends rebutting them.Letting him/her get under your
skin is exactly what he/she wants to accomplish.Wake up folks.
I love singing day. These kids sing and are future champions and all americas.
gdog3finally, it is refreshing to read intelligent, fair observations from
someone who is a Ute fan. Of course, there are plenty of Cougar fans who make
dumb, biased statements. But if we could all cheer for our team while
recognizing that just because we love to cheer for our team doesn't mean we
have to denigrate our competition with silly, out-in-left-field statements, we
could actually enjoy intense competition in a civil manner. Imagine that!!!
People who make outlandish, boorish, or hateful remarks while hiding behind the
anonymity of the internet really bug me. The internet has become a safe haven
for cowards! I especially find it amusing that so many talk "smack" as
if they were playing the game, when in fact, I venture to say that most of them
would never dare step on to the gridiron to get "smacked" like football
players do. And if they were to meet the players and coaches from the team they
love to bash, I'll bet their language and attitude would undergo a serious
To everyone saying stars don't matter, the stats simply don't back
that up. While it's certainly not a perfect system, it is a pretty good
indication. For example, yahoo sports analysis found the odds of becoming an
all-American by star were:5 star - 1 in 124 star - 1 in 323 star - 1 in 1332 star - 1 in 1,218Sure, you can point to 5
star players that didn't pan out. And the majority don't (11 out of
12 to be precise), but the odds are much higher for them than anyone else. The
article has a lot more ways to basically support the same conclusion. Look up:
"Star Power: Be they ever so humble, recruiting rankings still do the
Seeing how BYU fans like Rockwell, Snack Pac and Ducky continously post on Utah
threads; I fell compelled to return the favor. However, let's stay on topic
and stick to facts and stats. Per Rivals:Utah's class is ranked #37:
TCU, Arizona and Oregon State just ahead: Michigan State, North Carolina and
Indiana just behind.BYU's class is ranked (scroll down) #69: Duke,
Colorado and Toledo just ahead: SMU, Tulsa and Syracuse just behind. Holly
Toledo! No one wants to go to a program knowing that whether you win 6; or 11
games, you will still end up in San Diego playing in the Kraft Macaroni and
Cheese Bowl. That's just the way it is! That's Karma!
@OHBU,Thank you for pointing out reality.I'll take
this opportunity to point out again that Utah won the recruiting battle. Again.
I'll happily take a 7th out of 12 in our 3rd year in the BCS
Confernece of ChampionsAnd that place is significantly better than
any indepedent other than Notre DameI love my BCS team!
@DaveKnowsBestI don't even know where that came from. Maybe it
was one of those rare mid sentence light bulb moments. Glad you liked it.
Dear Chris B. Tell me what did Utah struggle to win this year? Five out of 12
games. Doesn't look like they struggled very hard. Were they struggling to
not be the absolute worst team in the pitiful 10+2 league. You really need to
come up to date on your worn out cliche on the WAC. Most teams in the nation,
Utah included would love to win the WAC over being a bottom dweller. I loved the headlines when Utah accepted the bid to join the PAC 10. In the
minds of most people they knew Utah would be an eternal bottom dweller. Chris
you sit home and pound your chest and talk about the mighty Utes. You
have to be one of the first on here to diss other teams because your bubble
burst and your Utes are water over the bridge.You need to follow up
on some of the lives these national BCS teams have and I would venture they are
not quality lives. They may be quality players, but when it gets down to their
private lives that is not a life Christ wants us to live.
The state of Utah in general has always had a smalltime attitude toward
recruiting rankings. It's an inexact science. Everyone gets that. Big
recruits will always flop and unknown recruits will always come out of nowhere
to be stars. And some programs will be more successful than others that
perennially have higher-rated recruited classes. We know this. But just because
there are instances of this being true, it doesn't mean that's the
defining characteric of recruiting. For every Boise St. that wins
despite never having highly rated recruiting classes, there's 10 Idahos,
Colorado States, Wyomings, etc. The shoe fits more often than not. And lest
anyone miss the forest for the trees, Alabama is having the best run in modern
college football history. And shocker, Nick Saban has never had a recruiting
class outside the top-5 at Alabama. When you get the first pick of high school
players in the country, you'll guess right more than you will wrong. And
for those citing USC- #1 they have won a BCS title, #2 they had the longest run
of consecutive BCS games in BCS history, and #3 they're alway highly rated
in recruiting. The shoe usually fits...
All of these guys are 5 stars when it comes to giving firesides
Chris B"Thank you for pointing out reality."Unfortunately for U, you're not willing to accept reality that the Utes
are clearly in over their heads when it comes to recruiting against the big boys
of the PAC 10.2. Utah will never out recruit USC, UCLA, or Oregon,
and will only occasionally out recruit Stanford, Washington, Arizona, California
or ASU in a particular year, so the chances of the Utes ever being anything more
than an occasional one year flash-in-the-pan are nil.Get used to
cellar dweller status and playing in the couch potato bowl.
Recruiting is completely subjective and varies from database to database. For
example, ESPN has BYU QB recruit Billy Green as a higher rated QB prospect than
either of Utah's QB commits, but Rivals and Scout have Utah's QB
commits as 3 star prospects and they list Green as a 2 star.So
who's right?I think BYU's average ranking in recruiting
over the last 8 years (since Bronco's been coach) has been about #55.
However, check out these stats that Bronco posted in his presser this
afternoon:BYU is one of only 16 programs to be ranked at
season's end in the USA Today Coaches Poll in five of the last seven
seasons.BYU has a 74-29 record over the past 8 seasons. Only 12
teams have more wins over that time frame.Bronco Mendenhall's
.718 winning percentage ranks 12th nationally among active FBS coaches with at
least 8 years of coaching experience.BYU is tied for 9th among teams
with the most 10-win seasons in the past eight years.As always,
it's a great time to be a Cougar.Go Cougars!
It doesn't make sense to me to recruit a defensive back under six feet
tall. It does seem like most receivers are taller, bigger, and probably just as
fast. In fact six feet seems short without an astounding vertical leap.
As a Utah fan,I'm sure there are a few smack talkers from my
side of the holy war, for that I apologize. Good luck to the new Cougars
I'm happy with the Cougars recruiting class this season. I like seeing the
juco transfers and I hope they can contribute immediately to the success of this
BYU team. I kinda wish there was a field goal kicker in the mix, but maybe the
coaches felt comfortable with their special teams players.To Chris B, I
like the shot at BYU not being able to perform in the WAC. BYU still to this day
holds the record for most Conference Championships in the WAC (how long have
they been out of the WAC?), but Utah had only 2 in their 38 years in that
conference. Back to a relevant comment in this thread, I wish these new
recruits the best and I hope BYU will be able to coach these guys and make them
the best they can be. Go Cougars
Re: EJB Defensive backs, particularly corners, need good lateral
movement. To cover well, corners need incredibly quick footwork and hip movement
to adjust to receiver routes while running backwards. That is why even the
fastest corners often give receivers a 5+ yard cushion because they need to be
as fast as a receiver running backwards. (Not just BYU does this, lots of
DB's give cushions to receivers, it just depends on what the coverage call
is on a given play). When a corner starts to be taller than 6 feet,
they don't necessarily sacrifice straight line speed but height like that
starts to compromise the lateral quickness needed to cover well. That is why
safties are often taller because they play the middle of the field against TEs
and they aren't necessarily manned up on a receiver, even though on a given
play they can give over the top cover help on a receiver depending on the play
call. Every once in a while you get corners who are 6'2" or
6'3" that are freakishly quick and can be that tall while still having
the needed quickness to cover well. Hopefully that shed some light
on the subject.
@Cougar Claws, I liked your comparison between recruiting and drafting.@Stonewall, I agree except the coaching factor comes into play a lot in
college football as well. Boise State out coaches the other smaller programs you
mentioned and increases their recruiting from those teams. They also beat bigger
schools with less. Also, the talent a lot of BSC schools still doesn't
automatically produce wins. USC is loaded and Kiffen couldn't compete for
the conference at all. There are many examples but what I am saying
is that I see your point on the value of high star recruits. Good coaching is
just as important I say. I think most fans agree with. Maybe there is some
"small time attitude towards recruiting rankings" here in Utah but much
of that comes from some BYU fans who mostly understand they are in a unique
position with LDS athletes and honor code stuff in recruiting, but feel the need
to defend themselves in a way that sounds like stars are insignificant
Gorum - regarding Shoaf's speed: It's highly likely that 4.76 IS his
real speed as a 6-6 265 lineman. The difference between him and the linemen at
the combine? They weigh 50-60 pounds more than he does as an 18-yo kid. 6-6
265 is not gonna cut it in the NFL - or the NCAA for that matter. If he's
6-6 315 of 6-6 325 and can still run a 4.76, it would be really impressive...
Time will tell on all of these recruits. But one thing impresses me with this
years class of kids from the state. The # of utah kids being recruited and
landed by out of state schools is awesome. It will be an awesome adventure for
all of these kids and I wish them all luck. As for the instate recruiting
battles, I give a the edge to BYU especially on the offensive and defensive
lines and in the linebacker positions, The skilled positions edge goes to the
Utes. Except in the QB position where I think that is a toss up. Over all
speed in this class is a tossup. The Utes may have a quicker return from this
class because of the missionary issue at BYU. Over all I like the choices that
The Cougars and the Utes have made. Utah State is still on the outside looking
in as far as recruiting goes, however, I like the direction that they are