This is a good idea to wait. This is a serious issue with potentially serious
consequences.We should be very careful with our young people.
Try to stall all you want the world is changing for the better and there is no
reason to turn back.
Dear Spring Street, The world is changing for the better???
That's the first time I have heard that. Look around. Things are not
getting better. Values, language, work ethics have all gone down hill. The BSA need to beware lest God is taken out of the oath, next.
The BSA has the right to choose what is best for their children. I have the
right to choose what is best for mine.
@cambodia girl The damaging influance of your brand of "values"
have gone down hill. We live in a society that shows greater justice and
equality, our crime rates, teen pregnency rates and abortion rates are low In
relation to other times in history. I am sorry it is getting harder for you to
force your prejudices onto society but it does not mean the society is getting
@ cambodia girl.Bravo! I agree with you completely.@spring street.Influance? I think your idea that our society is
in a positive point in history is warped. I think that people who think like
you are a negative influence on a decent society.
The BSA chose to ignore this decision before.Today, they are trying
to avoid it again. You cannot continue to avoid any rational
justification for denying decent Americans the same rights as others. Today, tomorrow, all americans will be able to join the BSA.
Regardless of orientation.
There are a half-dozen BSA employees making a 6-figure salary that are sweating
in their boots knowing that this decision could cost them their jobs in Utah.
Well spring street, I guess it depends on which side of God you are standing on
to say that things are better now than before.God is being taken out of
our schools, our pledges, prayer out of school and removed from hundreds of
public markers and statues that have stood for over a century.Sorry, but
today's morals and the level of corruption in business and government
exceeds that of any time in this country's history.Your's is a
perfect example of calling good evil and evil good.I suspect the Utah BSA
along with many other states are preparing for plan B in case BSA actually
chooses to open the doors to outside pressure.And it will not bode well
for BSA if they cave in on this important issue.To put in off onto each
individual districts is cowardly in my opinion and I'm surprised they
haven't consulted and counseled with the organization overall. Or
perhaps they knew what the answer would be.Sad times for BSA.
Yeah, we wouldn't want any consequences like equality and open-mindedness
to plague our children.
@ AZrodsGod loves all his children, regardless of sexual
orientation.Also, God doesn't NEED to be in schools and public
places. If you believe that he is truly omnipotent than he is already there
anyway. He doesn't have to be invited by a plaque on a statue. Your point about corruption is wrong as well. Monopolies were rampant in the
early 19th century, especially in the steel and railroad industries. As for
politics; it's ALWAYS been politics.
@AZ God is not being removed from the pledge. Hundreds of public markers
and statues that have been around for more then a century? Care to name a feCalling good evil and evil good? Like claiming the significantly low
numbers I referred to earlier as bad or the fact that we are becoming a more
just society evil? Claiming oppression of others free agency is good? That
calling good evil and evil good?@mdThe facts I listed
above are what they are, if you believe those low numbers represent a declining
society then I have wonder what you onsider a healthy society. I understand that
in order for your beliefs to be true and The hope if a second coming happening
in your lifetime means society has to be failing but it's just not reality.
Twofer: "God doesn't NEED to be in schools etc."No he
doesn't NEED to be there, but we NEED Him there.Simply put, if
the BSA adopts this change then the LDS, Baptist Churches etc. will form their
The world is not a better place today than in earlier era's.-Drug abuse and in particular Meth and prescription drugs abuse is rampant.All too frequently we hear about mass violence i.e. Sandy Hook and
Aurora.Sexual and other abuse of children is an ongoing
abomination.Any organization that accepts that something is not of
God will not knowingly allow their children to be lead by those actively
participating in those lifestyle choices. The BSA has the right to make a
change, it'll just be without a large portion of its support, the LDS
Church.All are children of God and all of us our brothers and
sisters, we should treat each other with respect and love, while holding to our
principles that we feel are right.
Funny - the LDS Church changed a while ago - why is the Utah Council so far
I am so dismayed at how unkind so many readers of this newspaper still are.
Recently, the LDS Church releases a new website invited gay members of the
church to return. It's also an invitation for the rest of the members to be
less judgmental and more accepting. Unfortunately, that isn't apparently
happening.Now, the BSA is considering accepting gay scouts and
leaders into their troops. I suspect this sudden change may have resulted from
some input from LDS headquarters in Salt Lake City. Let's think a minute
here. The church has a website that tells gay members they should feel welcome
at all church meetings, yet one of the biggest programs for young men that is
supported by the church still bans them from participating. That's not very
accepting, is it. It's absolutely not very welcoming. The
reality is that many Boy Scout troops already have members who are gay. They
just aren't open about it. This is just another step to help those young
men live up to the scouting ideal of being honest.
The Utah Scout council appears to be very open about their motivations, and
they're right, Scouting is about the boys.I personally hope
that they will find a way to resolve their concerns so that this issue can be
addressed. I'm tired of this issue being so prevalent among young people.
It shouldn't be. It'd be nice to have an organization that
doesn't pretend it doesn't exist, but doesn't glorify the issue
either. Let's get back to teaching boys to do their duty to God and their
country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep
themselves physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.Given the context, I can understand they need time to fully contemplate what
this impact will have on the concept of being morally straight, but it's a
good debate to have...
I am not anti-gay. I just do not think these things need to be public.I
think whatever a person does behind their bedroom door is a private matter.No reason to publicize ,I also believe in civil unions for insurance coverage
and inheritance purposes but, again Does not to be aired out all over the
The most troubling point of this article, and the articles only point ironically
enough is involvement. National did not do its due diligence to reach out and
poll it Chartering Organizations in the Councils, Districts, and Units. We are
where the rubber meets the road. The Chartering Organization's is where the
full impact of this decision will be felt. Shame on National for this rush.
Regardless of the outcome the best way to proceed is to stop, poll registered
members, tabulate the results, then proceed. The opinion of the registered
members are the only ones that really matter. National needs to ignore those who
have no verifiable interest in their decision. No more of this ready fire aim
This is not about sexual orientation. It is about morals. Very few believe that
being homosexual is wrong. Many believe that acting upon those desires is
wrong. One is a choice the other is not. if every natural tendency we have as
humans were deemed morally good and legal, then the world would be in a lot of
spring streetPerhaps the reason the numbers are low in the specific
areas you mention is because other areas like teen sexual activity combined with
contraception are way up. And I have to question your 'crime rates are
low' statement. They can cook the books to look however they want. But
the facts show that more kids and adults are using illegal drugs than ever
before. The statistics are alarming. But they ONLY affect the crime rate when
people are arrested for the crimes. It's illegal to text while driving in
most places, but it doesn't affect the crime rates unless people are
arrested for those crimes. Statistics show an alarming rate of speeders, drug
users, drinkers, and texters (all of which kill people) are way up. Combine
that with the bazillions of people having sex outside of marriage and society is
certainly not as rosy as the picture you paint. But there are many good things
in the world that ARE good too. I see those too.
Since chartered organizations can still choose their own rules of membership and
leadership in their units, I'm wondering what the ultimate concerns are.
According to BSA press release, "chartered organizations that oversee and
deliver Scouting would accept membership and select leaders consistent with each
organization's mission, principles, or religious beliefs."There are chartered organizations or potential chartered organizations,
including many churches, that would prefer to include individuals currently
excluded, particularly gay parents. And the values of Scouting would definitely
strengthen society if we could broaden the audience of youth who see those
values. In Scouts, precise definitions of belief in god and morally straight
are left to families and their churches.One caution, however, would
be that there should still be a strong policy against individuals using Scouting
as a platform for non-Scouting agendas.
So I ask Pagan, Two for Flinching, and others who argue this equality to all
logic does your logic include polygamy and other more progressive ideas such as
the lady who wanted to marry her cat? Just where do you draw the line or is
there no line? The same argument can be made for these other concepts as well.
Does your interpretation of equality really include all? Is it just a free for
all-fair for all world with no boundaries? I will stick with God's
boudaries and continue to be an advocate for his commandments.
We have weak leaders who want to change the Scout Oath and Law.I'm sure if they could vote on it they would change God's Laws as
well.Yes, God loves us all, but he created his own laws that we can
choose to obey or not.Boy Scouts, Please Stand tall and honor your
Scout Oath.Everyone, Please honor God's laws.
Have any of you who claim the world is getting worse actually studied past
civilizations? I challenge any of you to name a past civilization better
than our current one.Read the Old Testament, women were possessions,
slavery and murder was accepted. I don't even need to mention what the
Romans, Greeks, Huns, Khans, etc were like.Seriously, gays aren't
ruining the world. People have been gay since the beginning of recorded history
and yet here we are, safe and secure. They haven't ruined anything. Some people simply need to take a look at things in perspective. The
world is better then ever before. Much better.
"I am not anti-gay. I just do not think these things need to be public.I think whatever a person does behind their bedroom door is a private
matter.No reason to publicize ,I also believe in civil unions for
insurance coverage and inheritance purposes but, again Does not to be
aired out all over the place.."Yeah exactly! I'm not
anti-heterosexual I just don't think they need to be so public about it.
Those darn kids going to their school dances flaunting their heterosexuality in
everyone's face. And hey I even think they should be able to get married
for insurance and other privilege but they don't need to air it all over
the place--the audacity of some people sending out wedding announcements and
inviting hundreds of people to celebrate with them in airing it out all over the
place. And then they even have the nerve to put pictures of their families on
their desk at work! Why must some people just "air it out all over the
The BSA and Councils over the years have been hit with lawsuits on abuse,
whether leaders or the members. I am sure it is a sensitive subject for them,
sort of like the various churches, organizations, and schools and universities
that have been hit with law suits dealing with abuse issues. It may not be the
right direction but I am sure the national BSA and chartered groups have looked
long into the answers.This definitely brought up discussion quickly
and in large numbers on the various media forums. With gender as an issue with
the military, in the workplace, and now with the BSA, big decisions have to be
made. The Scout law and oath have a duty to God and morality in almost every
word the creed has in it. The BSA may not be looking at the values of Lord
Baden Powell. Will Eagle Scouts still put on their resume that they are Eagle
Scouts? Will the Friends of Scouting dollars go away? This is the
time to prepare to meet God and people have to make choices with their agency.
Our nation is for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Sin never was
Ernest TThe world is a much better place in so many ways. And allowing
those with same sex attraction into Boy Scouts as leaders is not a problem for
me. I would have a problem with any scout leader who is sleeping around,
involved in porn, doing illegal drugs, drinking to excess, swearing,
disrespecting property, robbing, stealing, cheating, or any other unsavory
thing. But I also know we are all imperfect and need to strive to be better, no
matter who we are. And I am not so naive to think that the world is getting
better in the areas I mentioned above. More politicians are corrupt, more
teachers are corrupt, more religious leaders are corrupt, more in Hollywood are
corrupt (especially morally), more sports 'heroes' are NOT role
models, and more people are blind to the wickedness that needs to be quelled. I
raised 4 Eagle Scouts, and they found their greatest role models as Scout
Leaders. I hope that can continue for my grandsons. I pray we can preserve
that ideal. Honest, True, Chaste... Scout Leaders are always a good thing, no
matter what their attractions are.
I do not know how so many are saying that things are so much better now. They
must be too young to see the past. As a society most things are much worse in
2013 than they were 50 years ago. Some people just think that everything has to
be fair. If things were meant to be fair we would have all been born that way.
We were not; therefor we accept what we are and appropriately adapt. I have
always loved athletics, but because of limitations, I have not been able to
participate; therefore I watch rather than play. There have been some sad times
and I've said "Why me?', but I have never expected others to lose
their freedoms to make room for me. There have been sexual abuse cases in the
BSA in the past. Boys have grown up suffering for years. This just opens the
door for this to happen more often.
Cinci Man: Congrats on your eagle scouts. Being gay doesn't mean a
person is bad, unchaste, untrue, dishonest, etc.My main point is society
is improving. It's better than it's ever been. Just over a generation
ago many Americans were in favor of segregation. Less than 200 years ago many
Americans believed one person could actually own another person.Hopefully
in another generation, gays will no longer be fired, beaten and treated
differently. We can keep getting better. If the scouts want to ban gays,
that's their decision but people simply cannot claim treating gays humanely
is ruining society.
The LDS church invited them to return but not to continue their lifestyle. Jesus
invited all to come unto Him by faith, repentance and baptism.--- not to
continue their former lifestyle, but to show their change by keeping the
The end is near.When the Catholics, Methodists, and the LDS start
their own organizations, the BSA will then be free to lower it's standards
in order to get back their precious Corporate Sponsorships.Maybe a
few billionaires could establish an endowment for the Scouts and tell the
Corporate dictators to take a hike.
Most comments regarding this article have focused on the commenter's
opinions on whether or not it is a good idea for the BSA to revise its policy
regarding participation in Boy Scouts by homosexuals. However, I think they are
missing the deeper subtext of the article, which is the real dilemma that the
Utah BSA Councils find themselves in.As long as the principles of
Youth Protection, Safe Scouting, and Two-Deep Leadership are maintained, the
proposed policy change would not result in any change in how scouting functions
on an operational level, other than to provide development and growth
opportunities for youth and leaders who would have otherwise been excluded.Conversely, the vast majority of Chartered Organizations sponsoring
local BSA units in these Councils are religious organizations that each has
definite moral standards, and these Councils would not survive if these
religious organizations severed their ties with the BSA (not a foregone
conclusion, but certainly a possibility). Even if these churches all continued
to sponsor the BSA, there are many here who may stop supporting Friends of
Scouting, which is the lifeblood of these Councils.This is probably
why the Great Salt Lake Council is expressing concern.
The writing is on the wall, folks. Time to expand Duty to God and say goodbye
to BSA. No rechartering or Friends of Scouting! BSA will die on the vine
without LDS money. Shame...but the work goes on.
What is the meaning of morally straight? Inquiring minds want to know. As an
Eagle Scout, I always presumed that it meant just what it sounds like. If
homosexuals want to create an organization which supports their worldview, then
by all means go for it. We have no "right" to join any organization
just because we choose it. Why this is such a hard concept is beyond me.
@ S. Andrew Zaelit Rush? You call this a rush? It's about 50 years
late in coming. To exclude gay and transgender kids and adults from
participating is so wrong. It is about time for BSA to do the right thing. Fear
and ignorance has prevented this for way too long.
I don't know about other organizations, but if the suggested change passes
I doubt the LDS Church will disaffiliate with the BSA. They'll complain and
take advantage of religious exceptions proposed, but none of the affiliated
scouting programs will be as effective without the BSA and they know it.The BSA affiliation helps with getting local chapters access to sites
and resources, and while an independent LDS scouting program might do well in
the Intermountain West, LDS scouting programs outside this region will be at a
disadvantage. Even LDS young women's programs take advantage of many of the
resources the LDS Church's affiliation with the BSA provides.And after a few years of having to go to Jamborees and other scouting events
where there are other chapters attending that don't discriminate, the LDS
Church's scouting program will realize that nothing has changed. Just like
now, you won't even be able to tell, and shouldn't ask/care/worry, who
is gay or straight.Besides, a non-BSA Eagle Scout award will be
worth less than a BSA one.
@ aunt lucyYes, equality and freedom should be for all. I have no
problem with polygamy, so long as it is a union between consenting adults (not
children). I do not support people being able to marry animals or objects for
the same reason. A cat is not a consenting adult and can't sign a marriage
I have been involved as a youth leader in scouting in the salt lake valley for
the past 7 years. I have mixed feelings on scouting, but with regards to the
current discussion, let me take a different approach.The LDS church
is making wonderful strides in reaching out to members of the gay community, and
should/will continue to do so.If the decision were simply about
inclusion, it would be a different story. However, there are major questions
with national funding that need to be addressed. All BSA registration fees
(which are paid for by the LDS church) go to the national BSA fund. Friends of
scouting stays within the counsel, and troop fundraisers go to the troop. If the
national BSA is claiming that each individual charter gets to decide, how are
the national funds distributed? Will there be troops that set their own
standards that are far different than the LDS church (and i am not speaking of
sexual preference specifically)...
Gay men should not be taking young men camping for the same reason that
heterosexual men don't take young women camping. Why is that so hard for
people to grasp?
...I have serious questions about how such a sharp and immediate change in
structure of the BSA will be managed, and who will manage it. If the LDS church
is paying registration fees to the national BSA, who then distribute to troops
who don't represent LDS values (which I believe includes sensitivity and
inclusion), then why not just start the LDS boy scouts, and keep funds under
your control? It would be far more cost effective. Then run it the way you
want.Will the chartered troop get to decide standards for admission?
Will the Counsel? The Greater Salt Lake Counsel is the largest counsel, yet was
not included in the discussions and were blindsided by this. I'm confident
the LDS church was made aware of the national intentions prior to the GSL
Counsel, due to GAs on the national board.I am absolutely in favor
of postponing the vote until the details can be understood and discussed. There
are so many questions beyond just sexual preference that should be discussed
with the same sensitivity and attention. Rushing this decision will not help
progress, and could create future problems and fractured relationships.
@md"I think your idea that our society is in a positive point in
history is warped."The amount of war around the world is
practically at historical lows, as are other things like slavery, while the
rights of women are at all time highs, as well as life expectancy, standard of
living, and other things. I think we're doing pretty good.@AZRods"God is being taken out of our schools, our pledges, prayer
out of school"As a Christian, I'm glad God isn't in
our public schools (by the way, kids can still pray, they just can't be a
distraction during class nor can the school lead classes in prayers) because
that's how we can have religious freedom, by not establishing a religion.
@concretebo"I just do not think these things need to be
public."So you never hold hands with your opposite-gender
significant other or anything to show who you're with? (Or if you're
single like me, do you plan on never doing anything like that should you get in
I have heard through channels that if this happens that the LDS Church is going
to pull out of BSA and just expand the young men program.
Ernest T.With your latest limited talking points, I fully agree. In
those specific areas, society is better. And I think it is important to
remember more of the Church's policy on same gender attraction and all
other sexual activity. Sex is reserved ONLY for marriage and that is defined by
the church as 1 man and 1 woman. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the
church's implementation of a tolerance for gays in leadership as well as in
scouting is that the oath's commitment to 'morally straight' will
continue to be 'sex is reserved for marriage, defined as between 1 man and
1 woman'. Whether heterosexual or homosexual, society, especially
children, are affected negatively by non chaste lifestyles. Society may one day
have families defined by many men and many women being together and kids having
no need to have or know who their parents are. So far, that has not been as
challenging as it may become in the future. For health, legal, emotional, and
eternal reasons, families are important.
@aunt lucy"does your logic include polygamy "Sure why
not? I see no reason why Joseph Smith should've been persecuted the way he
was though I suppose you disagree. As long as everyone in it is happy with the
arrangement *shrugs* whatever floats their boat. Of course polyandry would have
to be legalized along with it, fair is fair. "and other more
progressive ideas such as the lady who wanted to marry her cat?"Cats can't consent so she's out of luck.@Riccar"As a society most things are much worse in 2013 than they were 50 years
ago. "Psychologists note that there's a way the brain works
that makes people look upon the past with rose-colored glasses. Need I remind
you that 50 years ago we had race riots?
aunt lucy - So I ask Pagan, Two for Flinching, and others who argue this
equality to all logic does your logic include polygamy and other more
progressive ideas such as the lady who wanted to marry her cat??So, allowing gays into the boy scouts allows people to marry their cat?
What an absurd comparison.1) There have been cases of child abuse
WITH a gay ban in place. So the claim that gays will join the boyscouts only to
abuse them has now been proven false.2) If the Boy Scouts of America
really is about supporting the boys, why are they choosing to ignore gay
ones?3) You cat has no factual ability to give consent.
Coach Biff - From the BSA Scout Handbook:...and morally straight.To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be
honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be
clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs.
The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and
I will not contribute to the Boys Scouts anymore. If everyone decides not to
contribute, let see how long they'll last. They should the the message if
their funding is crippled or stopped.
Ok, UTAuley, I'll bite. Do you think this includes or precludes the
practice of homosexuality? Do you think the authors of this statement intended
to define homosexuality as "virtue"?
Yo pienso que hay que tomar mas tiempo, y ver en reflexión, pensar que
haría Sir Lord Baden Powell, si estuviera vivo hoy, porque él es el
fundador de este gran movimiento para los que creemos en Dios. Desde Chile mi
apoyo por seguir con los mismos valores de siempre como Scout.
JSB:[Why is that so hard for people to grasp?]Because it is so
unbelievably ignorant and backward to think that way. People who think this way
lack an practical understanding of how the world actually functions. I'm
gonna tell you a huge secret: If you've ever used a public shower at a
campsite, gym, school, public pool etc. you have showed with gay and bisexual
individuals.It's that simple. The only change here is that we
will allow qualified gay scout leaders, and boys who need scouting just as much
as straight kids, to not have to lie and feel ashamed anymore.The
simple fact of the matter is simple: Scouting is already filled with gays,
straights, and bisexuals. Safety has nothing to do with sexuality. The safety of
a scout should be treated the same way whether the scout leader claims to be gay
or straight.Plus, many pedophiles get married and have kids. Just
because someone is married doesn't mean they are straight. They could be
gay and hiding it, bisexual, or straight but with pedophilia towards boys.
The LDS Church should split with BSA and set up their own program. They could
sue for some of the infrastructure of the organization (camps) and then both YM
and YW would have access to these camps. Gay LDS youth could then participate
alongside all other youth... under the guidance of LDS church leadership. Costs
would drop (no six-figure salaries). Simplify the awards systems (fewer badges).
Couples could be called to administer/serve in all the camps. LDS public school
teachers and seminary teachers could be tapped for various summer camp programs.
Like BYU, we should go independent!
We see recently from the Penn State incident, the damage that can be done by a
single homosexual child predator. No, obviously the majority of gays are decent
people.However, it only takes one to do seriously damange to many
young people, as we saw from Sandusky.I hope we can find a way to
include all, but protect our children.
I have a question for those of you who are more familiar with how the LDS church
runs scouting. I assume not all of the wards have their own scout
program, perhaps the average is one scout program per stake. I don't know.
So is it possible that, if the BSA were to make this change, that the church
might just leave it to the individual wards to decide what to do with their
local programs and some will keep it while others will not?
The LDS church does not need the Boy Scouts, the Boy Scouts need the LDS church.
I have three Eagle Scouts and as long 'morally straight' continues to
mean something, it will have my support. If the Boy Scouts cave in to
abdicating a belief in God and His laws, it will cease to exist as an
influential organization for building young men.
"Gay men should not be taking young men camping for the same reason that
heterosexual men don't take young women camping. Why is that so hard for
people to grasp?" So can gay men take young women camping?
There have always been gay kids in the Boy Scouts, had sponsors not sought to
discriminate against these boys life would have continues as it was. We had
three kids in my troop who displayed easily recognizable leanings in the
direction of homosexuality and I can't think of anything any of them may
have done to cause problems for anyone else. Few boys that age are all that
involved in anything sexually to begin with and they certainly aren't
recruiting other kids to join them. Lift the ban, which like all other bans is
useless only bringing bad publicity to the instigator of the ban. Scouts are not
doing too well as it is with kids that spend every non sleeping minute out of
school playing video games, let's be inclusive not otherwise.
Coach BiffI don't believe the authors intended sexual preference to
be a consideration in that quote either way."To be a person of
strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open."
Seems self explanatory to me: honest and open with who you are and how you
interact with others."You should respect and defend the rights
of all people." Pretty clear -- "all people"...sounds inclusive to
me."Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in
your religious beliefs." - Don't swear or (as my scoutmaster used to
put it) 'cause a ruckus' and as for the religious beliefs, note it
doesn't distinguish which religion, only that you're faithful in your
own religions beliefs."The values you practice as a Scout will
help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance." - Which of the scout
values do you feel make reference either way to who you or your scout leaders
are sexually interested in - gay or straight? I don't recall any references
either way, but maybe you had a different scout handbook than me...Values of scouting: good conduct, respect of others, and honesty (also taken
from BSA handbook).
"We see recently from the Penn State incident, the damage that can be done
by a single homosexual child predator."Sandusky was not gay.
Sandusky was a sickening child predator and a pedophile. He was after all,
married to a woman for many decades. Trying to imply that all pedophiles are
homosexual is completely ignorant.
This is a delicate situation. Personally, I do not think a boy should be denied
membership based on his sexual orientation; provided that he follows the same
scout law that all other boys are expected to follow.Too often the
problem is - is that in order to be all inclusive, standards must be lowered.
The president now wants women to participate in combat. Supposedly women will
have to pass the same level of physical ability as the men, but no doubt that
will change in order to achieve prescribed quotas. Such has happened before.
And so, there is the chance that standards will eventually need to be altered in
order to ensure that everyone can be 'the same'. Progress
is not about changing requirements so that more people can 'belong',
it is about improving ourselves and reaching for higher standards; not
Just heard on the radio that 17% of Marines will pull out of the Military if
women are allowed on the front lines. Will there be enough female warriors to
fill that 17%? It is doubtful. The same is true with the BSA. My guess is that
there are a lot of gays shouting for joy over the BSA conssesions. Yet a very
small number will actually join scouting; they are just happy that they shook
things up. While a large number of youth will probably be pulled out of
Scouting. (The Baptist church has already said that they will.) So the bottom
line is, there will be far fewer boys helped by a good program. That is sad
because in our challenging world our youth need all the help they can get.
Perhaps the gays should just start their own troops.
Re: JSBThe LDS Church requires men (priesthood holders) to be
present at all times during Girls Camp. So is the LDS Church unable to grasp
your logic as well? Or is your logic flawed?Re: JP71If
I "hear through channels" that Thomas Monson is a communist, does that
make it true as well?
@isrred,At the very least, Sandusy was bisexual. Yes he was a
pedophile. He was also gay(or bisexual).The definition of
homosexual is being sexually attracted to someone of your own sex. Clearly,
Sandusky showed that he was that. I am not suggesting by any means
that all pedophiles are homosexual. Only those that are attracted to members of
their same gender. Like Sandusky.The Boy Scouts is a great
organization that has the safety of scouts #1.I am simply pointing
out the damamge that was done by one homosexual(Sandusky). I know many great
homosexual people. However, Boy scouts are boys. And we just need to protect
those boys from people who potentially are sexually attracted to them. It is a sad but true part of life today unfortunately. I
hope the Boy Scouts can continue to build great leaders and protect the boys.
Re: RiccarWell since you heard it on the radio, it must be true!
After all, the rhetoric on the radio is NEVER hyperbolic and statistics are
never made out of thin air.Just FYI, the same claims were maid when
they desegregated the military. It didn't come crashing down then
either.Nor will allowing gays to be in the Boy Scouts destroy the
@Chris BSo using your logic, we cannot have public school teachers
anymore because regardless of their sexual orientation they will be in charge of
students they could potentially be "Attracted" to and victimize.
The LDS Church already allows openly gay (but not "practicing") men to
serve in leadership and Bishopric positions. These positions already have
supervisory responsibility over young men's organizations, and they go on
overnight camps with the boys in their groups.For the LDS Church to
bristle at this move by the BSA, and to oppose it or threaten withdrawal of
support, would be silly and hypocritical.
70+% of the chartered organizations in the BSA are sponsored by religious
organizations that believe homosexuality to be a sin. If the BSA turns its back
on these organizations it would be an irreparable mistake. And yes, many of us
believe it is a sin. Therefore, to us morally straight would mean morally
"straight". And no, I don't think this makes me "backwards"
or "evil" or "misinformed". I have gay friends. We get along.
But I would not feel comfortable sending my son on an overnight camp with them
as leaders. Just like I would not feel comfortable sending my daughter on an
overnight with male leaders. This is not to say that I think just because he is
gay he is going to molest my son just as I would not assume a man would my
daughter. But I would still not be comfortable with it. Allowing gay leaders
into the BSA is not the same as abolition. Give me a break.
Facts are facts: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stopped its
affiliation with the Girl Scouts based on the defemination of the girls. It was
left to individual families to participate but overall the LDS Church
doesn't support the Girl Scouts. If this passes then the standards that
are set by the Church will be diminished.Again as someone said that
the new website was not to get gays and lesbians into the Church but those who
don't want to live the lifestyle of Pagan and others. If they are living
the lifestyle they will be REQUIRED to for go that lifestyle or not enter into
discussions with the LDS Church. Some of you really need to read that website
and the information provided. It isn't for ALL gays and lesbians.The other is that it is already pretty much a for gone conclusion for many in
authority that the LDS Church will disassociate itself with the BSA. If you
don't know it then you'll be surprised. The LDS has 1/3 of all scout
units in the BSA. Just think what that will do to them if the LDS Church
@isrred,Fortunately, almost all interaction between teachers and
students is seen by dozens of other people at the same time. Thus, any
potential danger surrounding homosexual teachers can be mitigated by having many
other people present.The difference with Boy Scouts is that
depending on the size of the scout troop, how many scouts show up to any given
activity, and the nature of the activities(such as camping) there is increased
risk if a homosexual person was a leader, for that leader to be alone with a
single Bo Scout or a very small group.There is strength in numbers,
which is why we dont need to worry quite as much in the school system.Again, it is all about Scout safety. We all just want the Scouts to be safe.
It is our duty to protect them.
Mukkake— “People who think this way lack an practical understanding
of how the world actually functions.”I’m well aware that
homosexuals are all around us but is it “practical” or wise to have
a gay man take boys on a camping trip? Would you want Sandusky to take your boys
on a camping trip?JoeBlow—Gay men at girls’ camps
isn’t the issue. You’re just trying to muddy the water.Isrred—Sandusky was gay. He was messing with boys and he was a man. Go
to the dictionary.Claudio—I have been a priesthood adviser at
a girl’s camp. There were lots of adult female leaders around for all the
activities and I didn’t sleep in the camp or cabins. I slept in my van a
hundred yards away from the camp. It’s your logic that is flawed.
A Scientist,You are alarmingly misinformed. Try again.
"70+% of the chartered organizations in the BSA are sponsored by religious
organizations that believe homosexuality to be a sin. If the BSA turns its back
on these organizations it would be an irreparable mistake."The
troops can decide on their own whether they want to allow gays in the troop or
the leadership position.I suggest that you all calm down and give
your local scout troop your input. They, not the BSA will be making the
decisions that affect YOU.NO ONE is forcing anything on your troop.
No one is forcing your church sponsored troop to do anything they are opposed
to.Let me put it in a way that some may be able to understand.The federal government (BSA) allows each state (chartered troop) to make
their own choice.See how "right" that is?
And when the scouts go to a district/council/national event?
@ClaudioIt depends on who your channels are.
So what does "gay" mean? Does it mean someone is attracted to the same
sex? That he's having romantic relationships with the same sex? Does it
mean he's having sexual relationships with the same sex? I was a boy scout
and I discovered years later that I was attracted to men. I don't call
myself "gay" because I have never and will never have have a romantic
relationship with anyone other than women to whom I find myself genuinely
attracted, and sexual relations only after heterosexual marriage (preceded by
full disclosure).So what is the right thing to do for potential
scouts and scout leaders like me who have an attraction they can't help
having, but who are free from any inappropriate actions with others and
unshakably committed to remaining chaste? Welcome them with open and loving
arms! In all things judge these boys and leaders by their commitments and
actual conduct and not by what your stereotypical imagination cooks up. Give
them a chance and show them the same love and trust and hold them to the same
standard of conduct as your would expect from men and boys without this
Hostess Cake is going out of business because it failed to adapt to
society's evolving values (mothers started valuing healthier food for their
children). Any religion or organization who does not stay up with our
society's values will also fail or become irrelevant. The majority of
Americans no longer tolerate discrimination against homoesexual inidividuals.
The BSA realizes that, but as we can see, Utahns are a little behind the curve
(which often happens because the bubble here).
I was wondering whether anyone here had heard the same appended news release
(radio) that I caught, but only the last part. What I heard was that, now, an
atheist group also wants the same considerations for them that homosexuals are
seeking. Then what about doing one's "duty to God"? How many
parts of the Scout Oath need to disappear to satisfy all the possible agitating
groups of the coming moments?
Gracie - the athiest group can want it all they please, this is the BSA, a
private organization, making public their decision to review their policy
regarding membership. Nobody is forcing them to change and in fact they have won
court cases in the past supporting their decision to ban gay scouts and scout
leaders. And has been stated, time and time again, nothing is being
changed in the Scout Oath. It is simply the assumptions made by some regarding
the wording of the oath that is now in question. The BSA makes it clear what the
meaning behind their oath is, and it does not now, nor has it ever been, their
stance that "morally straight" meant no gays.
I feel like everyone mentioning pedophiles as a reason to criticize homosexual
involvement in Boy Scouts is forgetting that lesbians exist and that the Girl
Scouts already has camp counselors with same-gender attractions at their camps.
They seem to be doing just fine with that.
On my honor I will do my bestTo do my duty to God and my countryand
to obey the Scout Law;To help other people at all times;To keep
myself physically strong,mentally awake, and morally straight.Morally Straight is the one we need to focus on here.
Perhaps a better understanding of homosexual persons wotuld be helpful. My
experience with homopsexuals men is that they seek a gay partner their own age
whom hey fall in love with and wish to have a life together. They do not prey on
young boys and girls as do pediphiles. They contribute much to the
beautification and upkeep of their homes and neighborhoods. They are productive
contributors in their employment/careers, communities. They seek to live a life
of integrity. Homosexuals have parents, sisters and brothers, grandparent,
aunts and uncles, nephews and nieces.
JoeBlow - While I hear your point about individual troops deciding how to
set their own admission criteria, my question is what will become of the funding
that comes from BSA registration that goes to the national BSA? The LDS church
covers registration fees for their scouts...those funds go to the national BSA,
and are redistributed to all BSA troops, right? So while individual troops may
decide their own admission standards, their registration funds go toward all
troops. Therefore, by association with the BSA, you need to have clear
understanding of the organizational goals you are associating with.That said, i still anticipate a growing level of inclusion and sensitivity
from the LDS church...However, rushing to a decision without discussion is not
the best decision. Collect feedback, work WITH each group, not in secret, and
make a decision that serves the collective whole. Perception is a
dangerous path to take, but it is certainly interesting that the national BSA
board is so far down this road without ever seeking feedback from individual
counsels. Our country would be better off if we listened and considered what
others have to say, particularly those we disagree with
Our time will come... soon.For now, we will support the fight for
equality for our gay and lesbian fellow-citizens.
So excited for this change. In my LDS ward, we are supposed to encourage gay
youth and adults to participate. The Boy Scouts should be the same way.
It's hard to let go of the traditions and prejudices of the past (common
theme throughout the Book of Mormon). It's time for us to shed some of our
own sinful ideas and be more Christlike.
@Joan WatsonYour statement made me laugh: Homosexuals have parents,
sisters and brothers, grandparent, aunts and uncles, nephews and nieces.You could have added that "a dog is not a cat"By the
way, it is your limited "experience" with homosexual men that has caused
you to take a very narrow and naive view of what constitutes gay or
homosexuality.Nevertheless, the LDS Church will continue to invite
all to Come Unto Christ. It will not lower its standards. Ever. The writing is
on the wall, however, with the gay agenda and the fact that such agenda-driven
groups take great pleasure in imposing themselves on the values of organizations
like the BSA and others, and because the Church will not bend to ever-evolving
worldly "standards," the Church and the BSA will part ways. And, the Church will not skip a beat, contrary to objectives of it opposition.
Joining a non-government, private organization is not, nor has it ever been, a
right. Joining the scouts is a privilege granted by the leaders/members of the
organization. It cannot be legislated. I am not a homophobe, nor do I have any
antipathy toward gays, but please don't force your moral values on others.
If you don't like the views and values of the organization, why would you
worry about joining it or argue for anyone's right to join it?
Several people are worried about what is going to happen to the BSA's
funding when this change goes through and everyone who opposes it stops
donating. From a financial perspective, this is exactly the right moment for
the BSA to enact this change. For decades people have been feeling a change in
their hearts as they recognize that our old prejudices against gay people are
wrong. The support for LGBT rights has passed the tipping point, and the number
of people still holding on to old wrong traditions will only dwindle in the
future. From a moral standpoint, the BSA should have made this change a long
time ago because we have known for a long time that gay men are less likely than
straight men to abuse children and the practice of excluding gay youth only
damages kids and perpetuates harmful attitudes in the kids who participate. From
a financial standpoint, though, now is precisely the right moment for the Scouts
to make this change.
Coach Biff,Do tell.It is easy to throw such words
around. Please back it up. Inform us all of the official Church position on
openly gay men serving in Church leadership positions. Then please inform us how
the members of Bishoprics and YM Presidencies do NOT oversee the activities of
Scouting, etc.If I am misinformed, I would gladly welcome being set
straight (no pun intended).
Why do so many of you assume that because a young man or adult is gay he must be
committing moral sin? Go read the Mormons and Gays website, and see what your
leaders are saying. It's high time we get off our holier than thou
attitudes and stop excluding people who are "less worthy than we."
For those who think that this would allow individual scouting units to decide.
I believe it's sponsoring organizations that would decide. For example,
the LDS church currently modifies the scouting program for the packs, troops,
teams, and crews that their wards sponsor. This change wouldn't allow
individual LDS packs, troops, teams, and crews to decide for themselves on the
issue, it allows the LDS church to decide and/or modify that policy for its
units as it sees fit.BTW, I'm for waiting and discussing more
as this seems hasty and has caught folks off guard.
I find it interesting that so many people would be so upset that spring street
would dare suggest the world is not getting worse. @cinci manaccording to the center for disease control (CDC) research teenagers are
actually waiting longer to have sex.The bureau of criminal statistics
support spring streets statements on crime and if you read their website you
will see what they have actually done to improve reporting not hinder it. according to the CDC research alcohol consumption ticked up about 1% recently
so you are kind of right there but I don't think i would call it "out
of control." which leads me to ask why are people so desperate
to believe the world is getting worse when reality just doe not support such
claims? Is it about the perceived lose of power religions believed they had over
society? what is it?
for those that are concerned about pedophilia you need to be more concerned
about the straight scout leaders being alone with your child since straight
people are more likely to actually commit acts of pedophilia according to the
APA and CDC's research.
@oldcoug So how is your insisting that the BSA (a private organization)
maintain your views on this issue any less forcing your moral values on them
then those that want them to change it. maybe based on your argument you should
let them decide.
I have been involved in Scouting for many years and have 'suggested'
to Church leaders on numerous occasions that it is time we disassociate with Boy
Scout of America. They have already done a good job of removing God from the
Scouting program. There are many Scouting activities that involve women Scout
leaders and troops allowing girls. The problem is not with females per se, but
that a big part of Scouting is to teach boys how to be men. I dare say women
really don't have this ability and girls need to be taught to be women.
Other issues surround allowing gay leaders. Gay boys in Scouts is generally not
a problem as they tend to 'come out' when they are older. Boy Scouts
is simply opening a can of worms in an attempt to appear tolerant and
I certainly will pray for the leadership to take additional time to ponder what
is a Huge decision. In my personal view I am opposed to the change; not for the
reasons many might suspect such as predatory activities by gay adult leaders. My
opposition to having gay youth leaders is that by virtue of accepting them we
then accept the behavior, or make the behavior right in the eyes of
impressionable youth. Im very aware we have had gay leaders forever, and they
have served well, however we have not had openly gay leaders and there is a
I have been involved with scouting for over 30 years. I am totally against the
Boy Scouts changing the stand on this issue. The scout oath states "On my
honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country ... To keep myself
physically strong, mentally awake, and MORALLY STRAIGHT. Now the world would
have them believe that being morally straight is no longer required. I would
refuse to allow any scout to be put in a situation where he might be endanger
with other boys that are gay ... Or with a leader who they are to look up to and
respect that is gay. HONOR is what scouting is about. I hope and pray that the
leaders of the BSA will do the right thing and the honorable thing in keeping
and maintaining the standards, beliefs, and OATH of the scouts. Don't let
us and millions of scouts down!!!!!
Here is the new Scout Oath... On a whim I will do my best, until it
suits me otherwiseTo do my duty to Science and my countryand to obey
the Scout Law, or whatever;To help other people, sometimes;To keep
myself physically strong,mentally awake, and morally straight-ish.BTW, Oath means...Oath A solemn promise, often
invoking a divine witness, regarding one's future action or behavior.A sworn declaration that one will tell the truth, esp. in a court of law.
As was said, scouting is about boys. It is ALL about boys, not adults, and not
as complicated as the adults are trying to make it. The boys, who are the story
here, simply want to be Boy Scouts, just like generations before them have
wanted to be, and do what they all dreamed of doing, no doubt fueled by tales
told by big brothers and friends who told stories of their exciting adventures.
What they know of gay or straight or anything surrounding those issues, we
don't know--and no doubt it varies from boy to boy. But if they want to be
Scouts, we do know it's a really big deal to each one, and whatever is said
in these comments or any other, or in any article or discussion is immaterial to
a boy who simply looks forward to being a Tenderfoot and earning his first
I would be willing to wager that the BSA board discussed this upcoming meeting
with the sponsoring organizations before they decided to call for one. Governing
boards do go into such things without consulting with the highest stakeholders
prior to announcing things to the public.
atl134, sexual abuse of children is overwhelmingly a male thing. The experience
from the Girl Scouts says very little, since women, gay or straight, almost
never abuse children.
Just thinking here, some folks on this board are discussing yesterday's
virtues v. today's, and giving examples. Well, things have changed, and
there are comparisons aplenty to the "olden days", especially, I noted,
a couple to Biblical times. So, how about--wives and concubines, for many kings
and rulers; slaves, including some being taken as wives and concubines after
victory; marriages through trickery; arranged marriages; marriages to cement
agreements between royalty; how's that for examples? And polygamy...back to
the wives and concubines, but many of the OT marriages were multiple ones. Now,
those were obviously all right, from a divine perspective at the time, just as
it was here in the early Church. So who's to say, since we do not know all
that will be revealed yet--check the ninth article of Faith--that there is not
something more about some of these things left to learn of? I am unwilling to
say, since the word of the Lord is dynamic, and not my dynamic, but His, that
there may be more to hear on this when we are ready to listen.
To clarify about Sandusky's kind of crime: His crime has nothing to do with
his sexual preference. He's no doubt as straight as he can possibly be.
It's a crime of power and of violence, pure and simple. He is a bigger
person, being powerful enough to exhort a smaller, younger, less powerful person
to do something he didn't want to do, to use trickery, bribery, threats,
and brute force, to get the power he wanted. He did that because he could. He
used sex. He could have pulled out their hair or done other things, made them
clean the showers with a toothbrush. But that wasn't his choice. Only he
knows why, him and God. But it has nothing to do with what you would think.
@grandpa DaveThe answer to your question is really very simple not
everyone agrees what your self serving definition of what it means to be morally
straight no matter how loud you yell it.
As I learned, having been in the Boy Scouts. Stand tall and do what's
right. Integrity is important.
I am an active LDS male who has been involved in Scouting most of my life,
achieved the Rank of Eagle, and helped dozens of others do the same. I've
seen gay boys in scouting and it hasn't made any difference. In fact, the
biggest difference it has made is in the lives of the gay boys. Just like
straight boys, they get the opportunity to learn things about their city,
country, environment, family, others, and selves. And, they learn to do,
becoming men and leaders. I not only see nothing wrong with it, but
see it as a great thing in all of these boys lives. I encourage it and
encourage those afraid or hateful of gay people to reach out and learn how
similar gay people are to you.
NWCL INDP,I agree with you, except I don't want a gay leader
camping with the boys.
I just wondering was so many people are get gays? Shouldn't everyone have a
chance to excel? Why so much prestige against something you really don't
understand? I believe that young men should be able to participate in Scouting
no matter of race, greed, color, religion or sexual orientation. This also
includes BSA leaders, so long as the Scout or their leaders are not pushing the
issue of sexual orientation or miss using their power to molest the Scouts. I
wouldn't stop my sons from becoming a Scout just because the leader is gay.
Gay men and women are HUMANS we should treat everyone equally.
I would have to say that if you have stock in BSA, it is time to sell. The
conflicts that this entire issue brings up will more than drive this
organization into the ground.
I feel sorry for the BSA they are between a rock and a hard place, pressure from
the gay community via economic support from corporation donation, and pressure
from the very organizations that support the BSA, ie the religious community.
Its a no win situation. The BSA is trying to extend an olive branch to both
sides. The problem is that large support could be loss and the organization left
to cities,schools,and private organizations. I don't see the gay
community, that has pushed for this, stepping forward to make sure that the
organization continues if the religious community leaves the organization. The
percentage of Gay and Lesbians who would join and lead is probably very small.
Sad, there is a lot that scouting teaches our youth and society needs these
teaching no matter who you are. Our prayers should certianly be with those
charged with this decision that it can me made to garantee the longivity of this
Sort of to paraphrase Brigham Young "This is the place" now just get on
with the change and stop complaining. As the LDS Church was willing to change so
the local council should be as well. Period.
Consequences of this passing:-LDS Church doesn't withdraw from BSA
because doing so would be to contrary to the latest statements about
homosexuals. -The LDS Church will put out a official statement and many
Church members will accept it right way, others will not.-Local councils
will lose millions of dollars in Friends of Scouting programs but will also gain
millions of dollars in support. I think the net will still be loss but they will
work through it.-Most BSA troops will eventually buy one man tents. To
help every one be equal since gay youth will always be sleeping alone. Scouting
would never allow two people who by definition of sexual orientation that are
attracted to each other to sleep in the same tent, unless they are adult couples
or parents and child(ren).-Many parents will not allow their children to
attend National and Council Scout camps. Though they allow them to attend public
schools? More parents will also be at scout camp.Light was not meant
to be hid and through pain comes joy. Scouting is one the most wonderful
organization to ever exist. Follow the truth for he leads the way.
"time to consider the consequences"Yes - consequences such
as the LDS and Catholic churches DROPPING all involvement with BSA?? If I am a
professional scouter this means I probably lose my job pretty soon!!
To NT-somewhere in UtIm glad you had a laugh. But the fact remains - If a
parent has a gay son or daughter isn't it possible that gays themselves
have a mother and a father and who is also a member of a family consisting of
brothers sisters aunts and uncles? Your suggestion that I should have, included
your quote that "a dog is not a cat" serves only that you muddied the
waters. If you do not have a familiy member who is gay - then it seems it is
you that has had a "very limited experience" and not the many who have.
I haven't even gone though all the comments on here, just 4 pages of them.
What's the big deal, and why do they need to change? I've had kids in
scouting, and no where do I recall having to fill out anything asking if they
were homosexual or not. Or, do they go on their camps, and when assigned to a
tent, come out with "I'm homosexual" or do they ask the homosexual
scouts to stand in one line and hetersexual's to stand in another? My 12
year old grandson is in scouts, and I don't know that he would know the
difference, and at his age, I'm not going to explain it until he asks, or
it comes up. Why do we have to put this in these boy's heads and have them
question if their friend in scouting or their leader is homosexual? Isn't
it enought to be aware as parents what our kids are involved in and give them
our support, no matter their orientation, and just let them have fun and learn
in the scouting program? What am I missing?
@Andrew Zaelit: You feel they should first poll the membership before
proceeding? Would you have made the same argument decades ago when
organizations like the Boy Scouts had to desegregate and eliminate racially
segregated troops? How would that have worked out? Answer is, we would still
have "separate but equal" units in scouting in parts of the country
where the majority at that time were dead set against it because of personal
prejudices and belief in the scriptures they used to use to justify it. The
issue here isn't whether banning gays is popular or not. Rather, the
question is, is it right and fair to do so? What about the young
scouts whose sexual orientation hasn't really emerged yet? Do they get to
stay in scouts until they realize they're more attracted to male than to
female, and then they have to drop out, or do they just stay silent and pretend
to like girls so they can finish the program?
This really isn't about gay's in the scouting program.This
is really about an organization known for teaching young men character deciding
to change its fundamental character for the sake of money. How can an
organization tell a young man to stand up to peer pressure about drugs and then
bow to peer pressure and sell its very own soul.Forget "how
could they ever have enough separate toilets at camps", forget "how do
we assign campers to tents", forget "how do we redefine the youth
protection program to allow any sexual orientation when there are individuals
who prefer man-boy relationships too" . This is really comes
down to an organization caving on its character for money and if it does that it
will never, ever be the same. It may still exist, but it will no longer be what
it always has been.
Concretebo, I, like you, am also not “anti-gay.” I also feel
strongly about allowing all human beings access to the same basic rights as
everyone else. I am also someone who feels that the media’s and love
affair with gay rights is a little over the top. I also realize, however, is
that some change IS necessary if gays are going to be granted full rights such
as civil unions. Turning a blind eye does not bring change. Just like with the
civil rights movement in the 60’s, open, frank communication to what was
happening was the catalyst for change in America. I understand your concern
about over-publicizing the Boy Scouts of America’s debate regarding the
inclusion of gay members, but this debate might just be what brings about the
change for homosexuals that you favor.