If this happens, goodbye to the BSA!
My guess is that if the BSA votes to admit gay Scout and gay Scout leaders, that
a good number of the sponsoring institutions will withdraw support of BSA.I wonder how Baden-Powell and W. D. Boyce would vote on this issue?
I am an Eagle Scout.I may resign that honor if that happens.
If this happens, goodbye to the lds church even doing scout camps with non-lds
troops.And I have no issues with gays.But this is the wrong crowd to
push the gay agenda into.
As a life long scout, I welcome the inclusion of ALL boys. I feel
sorry for those who believe that homosexuals include anymore pedophiles than the
heterosexual population.Sexual orientation is not taught anyway.
Nothing against gays, but this makes as much sense as having women in the BSA.
As a woman, I would think it would inappropriate to go camping with men and boys
for obvious reasons. Why would it be any different for people who are attracted
to men and/or boys?
How many school teachers are gay? Why does it matter if a boy scout
leader is gay?
It probably was only a matter of time, given the socio-legal pressure the BSA
was having to withstand from the Left and the media; however, when an
organization changes too quickly, too fast, it can easily "evolve"
itself right out of existence. So, the sponsoring entity doesn't have to
accept practicing homosexuals? Big deal--it basically means that troop
isn't going to scout camp or participating in other
district/council/national activities. What's the point in being part of a
national organization if you constantly have to self-segregate?
I think if they allow boys that are gay to participate in scouting would not be
a problem for the church or for the parents of the boys who are not. The reason
I say this is we are taught to love and respect everyone and this would be a
good way for the church to show we care and except everyone. But when it comes
to allowing a person who is gay to become a leader in a troop the church may
draw the line there. In a position of leadership that individual could influnce
these young minds to take a direction in thier life that they or their parents
may not neccassarily agree with or take part in.
This should be two separate issues. How can you justify not allowing gay scouts
to participate and still claim that you are looking out for the best interests
of those individuals. Discriminating based on sexual preference only results in
those who are gay hiding that they are gay and pushing what many perceive to be
a problem (being gay) into the future. It's analogous to a bishop telling
a young man that he should go home, pretend he's not gay, and forget that
they ever had the conversation.Gay leaders is another matter and
deserves some debate, although I also support this action with respect to
leaders.I'm an Eagle Scout but have not donated to scouts based
on this discrimination. If they change the policy, I will begin donating again.
Wow. Eagle scouts will mean much less to me now.
Agree with mountainman. I dropped my annual donations to the BSA several years
ago because I think they have already lost their way. Regardless of
what the LDS Church does, most of the donations come from its members through
the annual drive and not the Church itself. I see THOSE donations drying up if
the BSA lifts the ban. It would be devastating to the BSA and it will have to
totally change its mission. I doubt the LDS Church will abandon the
BSA as the ties are too strong and the Church is making an effort to reach out
to the gay population in a positive and understanding way. Time will tell
however. This will be he most important decision the BSA board will ever make
in its history. I hope they don't blow it.
I don't normally post, but the above comments seem a little extreme. The
LDS Church already allows gay members, I doubt that it would pull its support of
BSA over the issue. Any gay youth would just be held to the same standard as
straight youth - no premarital sex. Some sponsoring institutions
will pull support, others may support a more tolerant organization. The BSA
proposal, which would still allow control at a local level, seems pretty benign.
If this happens....the LDS church will end it's association with scouting.
Hey at least there will be not more endless friends of scouting fund raising
drives in our wards where people donate money.
I'm a somewhat conservative LDS assistant scout master. I have no problem
with admitting gay scouts and gay scout leaders as long as there is a policy
where gay scout leaders are not allowed (or other reasonable limits) to
promote/evangelize their sexual orientation with the scouts.
From the article:According to Williams, the new policy “would
eliminate the ban from the national organization’s rules, leaving local
sponsoring organizations free to decide for themselves whether to admit gay
Scouts.”"The Boy Scouts would not, under any
circumstances, dictate a position to units, members or parents," Smith told
BSA spokesman Deron Smith told USA Today. "Under this proposed policy, the
BSA would not require any chartered organization to act in ways inconsistent
with that organization's mission, principles or religious beliefs."====Explain to me why the LDS Church would have any problem with
this? This wouldn't affect scouting in any measurable way for troops
chartered by the LDS Church.
re:TXFaux"to promote/evangelize their sexual orientation with the
"promoting/evangelizing" their sexual orientation consist of? Would admitting they aren't married because they're gay be
Less hate in the world is, well, less hate!
It's not just Mormons (1/3 of total scout troops). Catholics make up
another 10% of scouts and various Christian organizations make up another
sizeable chunk. Does it make sense for an organization to alienate 50% of
it's membership for the sake of political correctness and open the ranks to
the 2% of the US population that is gay? Besides, how may gay 12 year olds are
there? This is more about Gay men wanting for "some" reason to be scout
leaders. It may not be sexual, maybe they are just keeping an eye out for boys
that don't fit in. Boys that struggled like they did at that age. Boys that
started wondering if they are gay and the gay leader would be there to listen
and help them figure that out...just like they did. Ask yourself, why do gay
rights activists target the largest organization of young men in the country
with such energy? Why don't they work on the AARP or the NRA with the same
energy? Why must it be the boy scouts?
I wonder if this means they will allow openly practicing gay people, or only
those who identify themselves as gay but do not engage in homosexual behavior?
I'm having a hard time trying to understand some of the extreme comments
here (and on the KSL boards- some of which are even worse). One person on KSL
even stated that "but just because the church has a website that tells us to
be like Christ to all people does not mean they preach that a gay man or woman
could attain the highest degree of glory" (You might want to double check
Church teachings on that).You do realize that there ARE gay members
of the Church. There are gay members of the Church WITH callings and temple
recommends. Since Scout leadership positions in wards and stakes are
essentially "callings," what would you do or say if a gay, temple
recommend holding man were called as a Scout Master?It will be
interesting, should these changes be made, to see what the Church will do. It
will be even more interesting to see how some members of the Church will react,
including some on these boards.
Freedom to associate is not exclusive to gays, lesbians, blacks, whites etc.I have to make a choice and the bylaws are part of that choice. My association
in any organization is determined by common beliefs. I cannot choose not to
belong to God's family, I have already made that choice, knowing the faults
and weaknesses of all.I can however choose to keep away from dangerous
circumstances. A lifelong scouter, I choose to remove myself from danger. As the
scriptures say, I choose this day to follow...
If you claim to be a member of the LDS church then you adopt its teachings and
views, which are to show love and tolerance to homosexuals. So why is it
different to allow gay members in your ward and allow gay scouts and leaders?
Re: PatriotAny real "patriot" or Christian for that matter
would never stoop so low as to call his brothers "disgusting" because of
an attraction that they were born with. Re: DellWhy the
paranoia over gay men? Why does being gay mean you want to have sex with every
guy you see? Does being heterosexual mean you want to have sex with every
woman? I hope not, because if it does, I don't know what orientation I am
as I wouldn't fall in either category.
There should be no problem with it as long as you don't act on it or try to
promote it during a scout activity.
All of the reports don't seem to differentiate between being homosexual and
living a homosexual lifestyle. I have absolutely nothing against homosexuals.
We are all unique. I do believe that all scouts and leaders should agree to live
morally straight. This has nothing to do with their sexual orientation. I do
believe that a homosexual lifestyle is not morally straight. I will not bully
those who live that way. Condoning that type of lifestyle as morally straight is
not going to help anyone. We can relabel things all we want, but in the end we
are not the judges.
I grew-up around scouting, my father was a scout master for 30 years, I and both
of my brothers are Eagle Scouts, I was and assistant scout master for 5 years.
It broke my heart when I had to walk away from scouting but I just could not
support the decisions they where making when t came to allowing gays to continue
to participate I scouting. While it makes me sad to see so many comments from
people talking about leaving scouting over ending the discrimination I do
understand, I however am over joyed at the possibility that I can once again be
proud of my roots.
The Scout Oath:On my honor I will do my bestTo do my duty to God and
my countyand obey the Scout Law;To help other people at all
times;To keep myself physically strong,mentally awake, and morally
straight.Doesn't the Scout Oath that has been around for 100
years mean anything to the current Scout executives?Because I grew up with
the thought that it really meant something to stand up for and live by.
@ Happy Valley. Hate? You throw that word around too easily. Disagreement does
not equal hate. Disagreement means I have the choice to distance myself from
those I disagree with. I don't hate polygamists either but I don't
want them to lead my BSA troop either.
What's the big deal? You may not be aware, but there are currently lots of
gay scout leaders and scouts. Does it make a difference if they aren't
Nothing against gays, but I don't know how this would ever work.I wouldn't want a heterosexual man going on campouts with my
daughters.I wouldn't want a homosexual man going on campouts with my
The problem with this decision is it potentially opens up the individual
Chartering Organizations to an endless stream of discrimination lawsuits with no
support from the BSA in Texas. The LDS Church, Evangelicals, Protestants, and
Catholic faiths are the largest Chartering Organizations in this nation and I
have heard account for 60% of the leaders and youth. These organizations will
not spend precious dollars defending themselves in court they will simply leave.
Regardless of your organizational size if you lose that many participants you
cease to exist. The AHG is hurting the GSA and there are enough resources that a
similar organization could be started for young men. This whole mess is being
driven by 2 executives looking to cement a legacy for themselves at the expense
of over half the BSA membership. I will wait and see what the LDS Church does
but if they walk there will be a host walking behind them. Baden Powell set the
standard and in 2013 it looks as if the BSA is willing to denounce the movements
founder for nothing more than self image. Clean, reverent, morally straight,
trustworthy, and honest. Not out of date and takes courage to follow.
"The Boy Scouts would not, under any circumstances, dictate a position to
units, members or parents," Smith told BSA spokesman Deron Smith told USA
Today. "Under this proposed policy, the BSA would not require any chartered
organization to act in ways inconsistent with that organization's mission,
principles or religious beliefs."Did anyone bother to read the
release, or is it just more fun to have an uninformed knee-jerk reaction.And to comments like this " as long as there is a policy where gay
scout leaders are not allowed (or other reasonable limits) to promote/evangelize
their sexual orientation with the scouts."Gay or straight, no
one should be "promoting their sexual orientation"Geez
people. Take a breath.
As an LDS member and long time scouter I plan to wait until a decision is
reached, a announcement is made and I hear words of direction from those in
leadership whom trust rather rush to judgement on something I do not have
sufficient information. I plan to give to friends of Scouting, continue to
serve locally in my district and in my ward.I will not renounce my
Eagle Scout or Silver Beaver awards. I will continue to live the scout oath and
law as the ideals and values of Scouting were instilled in me for life so many
years ago. I plan to give to and solicit for Friends of Scouting, give time and
energy to support an encourage boys and young men in one of the greatest
organizations for men the world has ever known.Please note the LDS
Church is not so deeply involved in BSA just for LDS boys and YM but rather for
all young men.
I agree with Claudio: the church won't pull out of scouting just because of
this decision. It does sound disconcerting to have a homosexual leading a bunch
of young men, but scouts do use double leadership, so the boys shouldn't be
alone. If something inappropriate should happen, however, that decision might
come to a screaming halt. Time will tell.
The LDS church isn't going to approve/call a scout leader who isn't
living the "law of chastity" so it doesn't matter if they're
gay or straight. Gay LDS members, who choose to remain in the church,
shouldn't have to hide who they are or pretend they're someone
they're not (ex.bachelor who just can't find the right girl to
marry).... If they are gay, but living according to current church standards
there should be no issues.
For all of you predicting doom and gloom for the BSA if they go this route,
I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. People said the same thing about
the GSA when they lost the discrimination. Guess what? Still going strong,
even without LDS troops. Besides, LDS troops can still have that as a
requirement if they so choose, so you won't see any major difference.For all of you worried about them abusing children and proselytizing
their "lifestyle" (whatever that even means), gay people do not have a
higher rate of pedophilia. For example, "Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied
175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a
child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual
orientation." Many other studies find similar results: "Dr. Carole
Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the
sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic...The
molester was a gay or lesbian adult in only 2 of the 269 cases"Finally, straight parents have gay children, gay parents have straight
children. It's not taught, so no amount of 'proselytizing' will
turn your child gay.
I hope they allow gays to be involved. Right now you would be crazy to put
"Eagle Scout" on a resume. You may not like it, but it's reality.
Branding yourself as an Eagle Scout is career suicide in 2013.
As has been mentioned the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not
support the Girl Scouts of America. Individuals may choose to participate but
the LDS Church doesn't support it. I actually see the LDS Church turning
its back on the Boy Scouts of America if this is done and going strictly to the
Duty to God Program. Is it any wonder that this was put into place. As someone
else mentioned if the religious organization is in a lawsuit the BSA will not
support it, leaving that organization to fight it out in court. One of the
great supporters of Scouting is the LDS Church and President Monson is a
lifelong scout. This program has been an institution in the Church for many
years. However, the morality question comes into play. As long as one has
same-sex attraction but doesn't act on that attraction they will be ok to
serve. Living the lifestyle would not be condoned as it isn't condoned
I am down with equality and fairness and I think that the boys should be allowed
to participate, whatever their decision about who they like. That being said, I
wouldn't be comfortable with gay leaders. Not because they would push their
lifestyle on my kid, but because I wouldn't be comfortable with my son
doing some overnight activity with a female leader just like I wouldn't
want my daughter doing an overnight activity with a male leader. That's my
2 cents anyways.
I was a scout master for both of my sons. My oldest son is gay and strugled at
times with being picked on by older boys as a scout, but he worked hard in
scouting and set a great example. My younger son is an eagle scout and loves
scouting and scout activities. Both sons are men of integrity that live by the
scout law. Both sons have been great scouts in my eyes.There is
still much to be learned about same sex attraction. As a member of the LDS
Church I don't think it is appropriate for those envolved in scouting to
promote a gay lifestyle. At the same time I don't think it is appropriate
to discriminate against boys who are still figuring out who they are or to
discriminate against men who are living a chaste life regardless of their sexual
While the BSA statement is clear that local units are free to regulate their
troops according to their standards and leadership, for me the greater issue is
Friends of Scouting donations. Those moneys are for the council to use at its
discretion. I donate to those causes with whom I share values. I quit donating
to United Way because Planned Parenthood was a recipient of United Way funding
and I cannot condone abortion. For the same reasons, I would not donate any
further to BSA.
I am conservative, LDS, a scout leader, and straight. I do not think this
announcement will affect the LDS Church position regarding scouting at all. I
don't think this will affect the BSA at all. The BSA requires 2 deep
leadership, adherence to Safe Scouting principles, does not tolerate physical,
mental or sexual abuse of any kind, and does not allow hazing. Obviously I
included much more here than revolves around the topic of this news article.
A gay scout leader will be required to adhere to safe scouting
requirements, 2 deep leadership, and all BSA policies. I am confident that a
gay scout leader can exercise self-discipline as well as a straight scout leader
regarding sexual behavior. I feel that the law of chastity and the
laws of sexual purity pertain to straight and gay people equally. Sexual purity
before marriage and complete fidelity to one's spouse after marriage. I
believe in the sanctity of the family, and that marriage is a sacred contract
between a man, a woman, and God. Given this, I still do not see
where a gay scout leader cannot serve in the BSA. My position has
evolved the past 12 months.
As a 30 plus adult scout leader, I have never been aware of any policy on
excluding boys from participation based on sexual orientation. Sexual
orientation is not part of any scout program. It is not an issue. There has
been a recommended restriction for leaders, based on the Youth Protection
program. No one in the BSA does any checking. Leaders are provided by the
sponsoring organizations and they use their own criteria. If the Chartered
Organization Head signs the application it is processed by BSA. This is not a
big change. And, given the current research as has been referenced earler, it
is not a big deal eather. If you are making a big deal out of this, you probably
wern't paying our FOS anyway. So, now you have an "excuse".
Additionally, the BSA policy allows local units and chartered organizations to
conduct restrictions. If the LDS church, of which I am a member, does not allow
gay men to serve, then that is allowed under BSA policy. I will not enjoy
seeing the tremendous pressure that homosexual groups will put upon the LDS
church, and the violence that has attended protests against the church by gay
groups in the past. I hope gays have moved beyond hatred towards the LDS church
(think prop 8 in California).I will accept whatever the LDS church
presents upon this issue. I will have no problem serving as a Scout leader. I
love scouting, I love the LDS church and the gospel of Christ.
This is what saves the BSA. Follow the money.(And for the bigots --
keep in mind that per BSA policy and LDS policy, a gay and celibate LDS youth
could participate fully in his ward and quorum but not in the troop associated
with the quorum. This actually brings BSA into compliance with LDS
standards.It's all still about the money. They can't
survive without the Church, and now this gives them a fighting chance.
While many try to wax prophetic about what the LDS Church will and won't do
about this, understand that President Monson sits on that board and has had and
will continue to have a great deal of input to the decision. As in all things,
watch what he says and follow it, you won't go wrong.A new
policy will not make the Church do anything different, and since the Chartering
Organizations have the responsibility to monitor membership in their
organizations, it really won't affect them.
All this talk is still in the consideration stage. With that said, I agree with
what has been brought up about potential lawsuits against church sponsored
troops. So the BSA is going to have a different standard for religious sponsored
troops, really? Either everyone play by the same rules or don't change
anything. Right there is the problem because the door is opening up to change
scouting. How far will that door open? Too much is never enough for people of
any group pushing an agenda. That includes alternative lifestyle supporters.Interesting though. It's almost as if the LDS church saw this
coming, especially with the mission eligibility changes. 12-18 boys are being
steered in the mission prep direction now more than ever before. Scouting will
take a back seat in my opinion and others as well in wards everywhere. And yes
it's possible LDS, Baptist, Catholic and others that sponsor troops could
There is no doubt that this change had already been discussed with the LDS
Church and other Large Chartering units (Catholics etc.). The LDS Church will
not drop scouting. This change actually aligns BSA gay policy with the LDS
Church. Gay and Lesbians can serve and be active, temple worthy members as long
as they live a chaste lifestyle. Right now an active LDS Gay 16 year old could
be excluded from Scouts under the current BSA policy. I find it ironic that
some LDS scouters say they will no longer donate to the Scouts if they make this
change? Does that mean they will stop paying tithing too? Since the scout
policy would align with Church policy! As a active LDS Member and scouter (with
3 boys in scouts) I welcome this change to allow all of God's children
(young men) to participate in scouts and gay men leaders to serve in scouts if
they meet the chartering organizations requirements.
@brasilI have no doubt the oath holds great meaning to you and the current
leaders but I also think they as many of us do would disagree with your
interpretation of what those words mean and what it therefore means to follow
This would be the end to scouting. The Southern Baptist Convention also put out
a post that makes it clear that their support would also end if this policy
changes. What's the big deal many people ask, being morally straight as
part of the scout oath. If they change that, then scouting has no meaning. Of
course, I suppose it would be possible for a person who is gay to continue to be
morally straight and that would even be fine with me. But a practicing gay who
advocates the lifestyle - no way. Scouting will end and should end as a
statement on our corrupt society. I won't be using UPS or Intel anymore as
they recently dropped their corporate support for scouting over this issue thus
bringing about this reconsideration.
the scout oath says that a scout is morally straight. To change their policy,
means that the BSA would now be contradicting their oath. Also changing their
policy could cause one of their biggest supporters the LDS Church to sever their
ties. I am a proud Eagle Scout who believes a scout should be morally straight
and a change in their policy means that living a moral life is no longer
something a scout should strive for.
Morally straight means...heterosexual?How about a
standard here people.Just because someone is gay does not make them
bad.What has a gay person factually DONE to you to warrant such
The thing that is weird to me is what difference does it make? I don't care
if someone is gay or straight. I don't understand why so many gay people
want to make their private lives public. I don't care who people are with
in their private lives and I would not want a heterosexual person talking about
sex any more than their gay counterpart. So why does a person feel like they
have to talk about such a private part of their life. Obviously, in some cases,
this topic would come up if someone marries their partner, but no one is
necessarily forcing people to disclose their sexual preference. I have no fear
of a gay man being a Scout leader at all. I just don't know why it always
has to be brought up. Good luck to everyone. I hope civility reigns supreme as
this moves forward.
I think that one or two years ago even this would have caused a big problem
within the LDS Church. Like so many other organizations and individuals of the
past year or two, the LDS Church has softened its anti-gay stance tremendously.
While in many ways, I would not mind seeing the LDS Church reconsider its use of
the Scouting program, doing so over this issue would constitute a move away from
its recent, more tolerant gay outreach. I don't see it happening.As an Eagle Scout and active member member of the LDS faith, I would welcome
gay scouts and gay scout leaders. My Eagle award will not change in value one
way or another. The ability of our children to effectively and lovingly
interact with those who are different from themselves would increase. I want my
children to interact with and be led by people of high moral integrity and have
found such individuals in both the heterosexual and gay communities. I would
welcome a more tolerant stance by the BSA.
As an active member of the LDS faith and an Eagle Scout, I would support this
move by the BSA.
As one of the previous posters said - "take a deep breath" and calm down
- learn to be responsible for your own actions and stop trying to expect your
beliefs to be legislated - with this pending change - that era is over - we all
need to grow up and be accountable for how we act. No longer can you say -
"I lived the law” (e.g. - no Gays in BSA) - now you will be required
to actually show how you set the example (of treating everyone - including Gays
- the same) and be willing to be held accountable for what you do.
I worry more about those of you that protest so loudly than I do the humanity of
It's about discrimination. I'm sure that most people here would
consider it discrimination to say "All Mormons are...(a negative
description)." So why is it acceptable to say "All homosexuals are...(a
This probably will not get rid of the BSA in Utah, but hopefully it get rids of
Friends of Scouting.
A lot of folks are missing the point by blaming the church or supposing the
church is against this. They're behind it--or rather someone's noticed
the LDS's position is a wise and decent one and they're reflecting it
in the overall BSA. The vote is actually to move closer to the LDS
position on gay leadership and scouts. The Scouts aren't abandoning moral
principles, they're encouraging discipline and tolerance, while remaining
stalwart on moral character.
If this is approved, I will discontinue my Friends of Scouting donation.
Wow, I am shocked. Not at the notion that the BSA may allow gay scouts or
leaders but the intolerance and homophobia of people on this message board. The
church allows gay men and women to obtain callings, hold temple recommends and
serve in various capacities already. Some are open about their same-sex
attraction and others are not. Some are married, some are single.They are just held to the same standards as everyone else. In the LDS church,
it is very uncommon to be a youth leader, including scoutmaster and assistants,
without being able to hold a temple recommend. How would things change so
dramatically if the BSA lifted its ban? Scouts being the activity arm of the
church would not change. Also, scout leaders can't be alone with the youth
anyway. There are plenty of straight men that have harmed youth so there are
safeguards in place.As for allowing gay scouts, this shouldn't
even be a question. How can a humble follower of Christ not welcome any young
man with open arms to activities? May he who is without sin cast the first
I was very happy to hear this news break today! As an active member of the LDS
Church, I see very positive steps toward acceptance of our LGBT Brothers and
Sisters. A gay young man is now welcome at BYU, and can also serve a full time
mission for the Church while living within the standards of morality. How could
we possible say that there is a place for you in the Church EXCEPT if you are a
young man between the ages of 12-18 years old? As someone who has seen first
hand the damage of a young man who is gay not feeling welcome, accepted, or
embraced by his Ward, and making a decision to "leave", overturning this
position by the BSA just feels like a very positive step in the right direction!
The erroneous thinking in many of these responses is an assumption that gay =
pedophile and that anyone who is homosexual is going to be hitting on everyone
he sees. Neither is true any more than an assumption that all heterosexuals try
to have sex with every woman or girl they contact. The LDS church, like most
churches, teaches young people that they shouldn't engage in premarital
sex. If we assume that good scouts will follow that teaching, particularly
during scouting activities, what difference does it make whether the people they
aren't having sex with are male or female? Yes,there have been
some adult scout leaders who have abused boys. There are also adult leaders who
have abused girls. Is the answer to ban all adults from contact with boys and
girls, or is the better solution to do a little screening and keep an eye on
My prediction is that the LDS Church would not withdraw from scouting if the ban
on gays is lifted, because the chartered organization can still decide whether
or not to include gays. The death knell for BSA in Utah will come when they try
to collect Friends of Scouting donations.
As an Active LDS person and currently serving on our Ward's Scout
Committee.The main issue is that if the BSA caters to the will of
whomever, where would it stop?Personally, I wish that the LDS church
would do their own form of simplified scouting. I know the reality is that
attendance for a Scout does not typically extend beyond 14 years of age. If this
was more like the Young Women's program I feel it would better prepare
young men for their future.Also it is unclear if this up-coming vote
extends to the Cub Scouting program.Another possibility is that this
could also extend to gay scouts and not gay leaders.Friends of
Scouting traditionally is very difficult. Every year this comes up there are
always groans. It will be next to impossible if this passes. Not sure where the
burden of necessary funds would need to come from.Not to mention the
potential for litigation from the families of deceased scouting members who
donated land and funds to a scouting program that they would not support.
For those who are confused by "Morally Straight"What do we
mean when we talk about “Morally Straight”? How do we explain that
to our Scouts when our Scouts come from many different backgrounds, family
dynamics, and religious beliefs? Simply put, a Scout is clean in thought, word,
The LDS church should abandon the BSA not because of this change but because it
hasn't happened sooner. The LDS church welcomes gay/lesbian members of the
church as long as their lives and actions are within the moral boundaries that
the church sets. On another note, holding up the BSA as a standard
of morality is a bit odd to me. The dirtiest jokes, worst bullying, and
glorification of violence as a young teenager all came from my time in scouts.
It certainly wasn't the intent of the BSA or my leaders but that is simply
what went on at the camps and activities I attended.
This is a particularly difficult question for Mormons. I will wait for the
reasoned and inspired comments I expect from President Monson.
This is only an issue to the BSA. Scouts Canada, Scouts Australia, and other
national Scouting organizations worldwide admit all freely - male, female and
in-between - and their programs are thriving. It is high time to openly serve
all youth, regardless of background. Scouting will not die, nor will Sir Robert
spin in his grave. Scouting is about Character with a Purpose and Citizenship.
Local organizations will still determine their own composition, so if you have a
narrow mind, you can always find a Troop that shares it. I will welcome anyone
who wishes into my Troop.
And those of you who claim the Church will no longer be connected to BSA,
you're wrong. The BSA is rethinking their policy is because the Church
rethought and revised theirs. It's now nothing more than don't ask,
don't tell. Then, in ten years or less, it won't matter.
It would be so awesome if the first announcement at General Conf in April is
that there will no longer be any affiliation with scouting. The YM Program is
fully capable of building great young men without scouting. More emphasis could
then be placed on building their spirituality which is desperately needed right
now. The youth would also be excited to not have to deal with scouting on
mutual night or at any other time. Most of the youth have outgrown what scouting
has to offer. There are just too many other activities to be involved with. The
leaders would be thrilled not to be involved anymore and especially when it
comes to friends of scouting. It would be a great move.
You can actually read the story elsewhere. One of the main reasons the BSA is
rethinking its policy is due to the LDS Church's recently softened stance
on homosexuality. The Church has gone out of its way to invite LBGT activists to
events and discussions since Prop 8. The Church's now gay-friendly tone has
influenced the BSA to rethink theirs.
It's sad that so many organizations around here are always at least a
generation behind reality. If BSA does this, I may actually encourage my
kids to follow through on getting an Eagle.
Sadly, I'm not shocked at the bigotry and hatred in these comments.It
starts at home and where you are on Sundays. Time to do unto to others....
South Park has an episode specifically covering this issue where a gay scout
leader that is doing a good job is removed by the concerned parent an replaced
by a man's man type that ends up molesting the children. It's kind of
funny, but mostly scary to see it being replayed here.David brings
up many good points. There are measures in place for all scout leaders. I
agree with his attitude. I will say it was the LDS church that fired the first
shot in Prop 8, by putting a lot of money, and trying to use church organization
to fight it. Instead of it being pushed in a respectful manner, many went too
aggressive, finally the first presidency had to issue a statement reigning it
in. I agree, some in the gay community were too aggressive and disrespectful,
but there were some in the LDS community just as bad, and they fired the first
shot, they have some fault as well.
I'm an eagle scout. I think this gives LDS-sponsored units a wonderful
opportunity to prove that they can love and appreciate their gay brothers for
who they are.
This is the LDS Church policy on "Homosexual Behavior and Same-Gender
Attraction":"Homosexual behavior violates the commandments
of God, is contrary to the purposes of human sexuality, and deprives people of
the blessings that can be found in family life and in the saving ordinances of
the gospel. Those who persist in such behavior or who influence others to do so
are subject to Church discipline. Homosexual behavior can be forgiven through
sincere repentance.If members engage in homosexual behavior, Church
leaders should help them have a clear understanding of faith in Jesus Christ,
the process of repentance, and the purpose of life on earth.While
opposing homosexual behavior, the Church reaches out with understanding and
respect to individuals who are attracted to those of the same gender.If members feel same-gender attraction but do not engage in any homosexual
behavior, leaders should support and encourage them in their resolve to live the
law of chastity and to control unrighteous thoughts. These members may receive
Church callings. If they are worthy and qualified in every other way, they may
also hold temple recommends and receive temple ordinances."I
will comment on this below.
Anyone who thinks this might prompt the LDS Church to abandon Scouting
hasn't been paying attention to the LDS Church's position regarding
the gay community. Visit the Church's web site regarding the matter and
you'll see that the church is much more likely to welcome gay scouts and
develop a well-reasoned policy regarding gay scout leaders than it is to drop
See my previous post before reading this one.I know people will
interpret LDS Church policy differently but I think its rather clear. Same
gender attraction is wrong and needs to be overcome. BUT for me (straight
married man) it’s also wrong for me to have attraction to other women. I
would need to overcome that and definitely not act on them.Maybe
this all a matter of semantics, but an active gay Mormon would be someone who is
working on overcoming the same gender attraction. I personally would not
consider them gay just like I wouldn't consider a straight married man an
adulterer for having thoughts about another woman. I think
there’s a lot of speculation as to what the LDS Church may do about BSA if
the ban was lifted. I can see them sticking with it and I can also see them
abandoning it. I have told others that LDS units outside of the US (and Canada)
have had great Young Men without a scouting program. The work of the Lord will
go on regardless.
@ WIllie I don't agree with your statement that it would be
"awesome" for the church to announce a separation from the BSA in the
upcoming conference. You are completely missing the point of scouting.
It's not a program to teach kids to a have certain sexual orientation, it
completely ignores that. The real mission of scouting is to teach kids many
wonderful skills that will prepare them to live in a world where they will be
challenged to question their values, and at times to use what they learned from
scouting to stand up for what they believe in. I agree with a previous poster
where he says that whatever the BSA decides on the matter, his Eagle award will
still mean the same to him as it always did. With that being said, any young
man, regardless of their sexual orientation, should not be denied to reap the
benefits from the scouting program.
FYI?Kelsey Timmerman turned in his Eagle Scout badge because, of the
BSA anti-gay stance. 7/24/12
The LDS church has gradually tried to transition the scouting program into a
comprehensive young men's program incorporating the activities of scouting
and Duty to God/LDS teachings. They haven't been able to do that
successfully because both programs are stand-alone and the combination of both
is too time intensive. The quality of both pursuits is not optimal anymore. I
hope they officially pull out of BSA and create their own program in the mold of
their young women's program.
As for me, an Eagle Scout and member of The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-Day-Saints, I predict The Church will leave the BSA if this is passed.
Personally, I am sympathetic to such a move by The Church. Just my opinion. The church already has a number of fantastic youth resources that could
take the place of scouting. Think of the new youth curriculum. Yes, it would
be a sad thing to part ways with the BSA, and yes, it would be a commentary on
current society morals, but it could be done. The church is well within its
rights to leave the BSA if it bows to the pressure of a few (relatively
speaking) vocal people or groups.Fundamentally, homosexual behavior
is not in harmony with the teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Personally,
I believe the Church's recent teachings on same-sex attraction do not mean
it ought to sponsor an a group (BSA) that doesn't uphold standards The
Church holds: that doesn't hold its personnel to the highest moral values.
Why would you force an organization to do so?
I cannot imagine Lord Baden-Powell ever considering homosexuality as a virtue
for his scouts to emulate. Neither it's leaders. I just don't see it
to be in harmony with what he taught. The leaders should embody traditional
virtues. Some fail, but the majority do not. As already
stated, I don’t think it is hate or fear that underpins this position.
The church teaches its members love and compassion, but also, in order to be
loyal and true to the Lord, His gospel, and His commandments, it teaches against
the transgression of homosexual behavior. Neither do I believe it means the
church is moving inevitably toward acceptance of gay behavior. I see it as
inspired counsel that the Lord loves all of us, no matter what we do. And please don’t discount the legal ramifications already mentionedHaving said all that, I do appreciate a church that teaches us to love
our brothers and sisters, despite behavior or orientation. It calms my soul to
know that the Lord loves those who violate major commandments. It gives me hope
for my little imperfect soul.Just my guess.
The Girl Scouts do not allow men to serve as leaders at girls' camps. There
is a good reason for that policy. The same reason applies here: the BSA should
not allow men who are sexually attracted to other men to serve as scout leaders
and camp with boys. It's that simple.
On my honor I will do my bestTo do my duty to God and my countryand
to obey the Scout Law;To help other people at all times;To keep
myself physically strong,mentally awake, and morally straight.Will BSA change the oath from morally straight to, perhaps, morally whatever?
Scouting has created more work, division and contention in my religion than any
other single activity.If the LDS Church severs it's ties to the
Boys Scouts of America, millions of Moms and Dads will rejoice!!!
To be a scout in this area, as shown by the comments here, is to belong to a
movement pretty much hijacked by the mormon church. How is it that's OK but
the idea of a couple of gay members is so off putting? And it would only be a
few members, probably almost none in Utah. Let's face it, changing policies
or laws doesn't get change a fearful culture.
Being "gay" is a condition of mortality. Nobody will be "gay"
in the hereafter.
I'm a boy scout leader and serve with an LDS unit. First, same
sex attraction is not the same as wanting to be a member of the opposite sex.Second, Heterosexual behavior outside the bonds of marriage is a no-no
in LDS church. If someone admits that he is attracted to the same sex, as long
as it isn't acted upon, its no biggie.Third, Jesus taught to
love the sinner but not the sin. Fourth, LDS church is free to
follow it or not. they can make thier own policies. If the church leaves, and I
doubt they will, it just looks bad.
Hutterite:The LDS Church has not hijacked the Boys Scout in this
area. I think you make that statement because you are offended because the LDS
Church will not endorse homosexuality and you remain angry.There are
hundreds of non LDS Scout Units in Utah and across the organization.
Why does it matter is scouts and scout leaders are gay?They go
camping and sleep together in tents. School teachers don't do that.Do
you want your son sharing a tent with another boy that may be sexually attracted
BSA has been very good at developing and working with every sponsoring
organization to adapt it to their particular needs. The LDS Church is a perfect
example of Aaronic Priesthood/Boy Scout adaptation.I'm not sure
but this may be what Hutterite means by Hijacking. It's evident to me that
the moral paradigm in the world has shifted significantly. Some hold fast to the
Jude o-Christian long recognized morality and others have detached themselves in
ways and others have completely abandoned any moral standard. This
seems to be a defining moment for BSA. The LDS Church will always stay
independent of the worlds drifting moral shifts.
In regards to Anon123 comment,We will still hold the same standard
for homosexual scouts ( no sex before marriage ) is just ignorant.Immoral and extreme sexual behavior of both heterosexual married couples and
homosexually couples is still sin.
This is a prelude to the Boy Scouts suffering what has already been done to the
Girl Scouts.There are countless horror stories of the girls being
victimized and indoctrinated by their own gay scout leaders - as well as being
taught to hate males. Please Google this subject to learn more. This is one
anecdote:"As a Boy Scout leader, my troop was at a large Boy
Scout owned campground that also admitted Girl Scout troops. During the evening
campfire, where everyone does skits, the girls’ skits were all focused on
hating boys and men. The girls’ leaders were egging them on to be more
contemptuous of the boys. The leaders had rage on their face and fire in their
eyes. It was shocking to see how much hatred they were passing on to the young
girls. The parents in my troop told me that their girls, who were girl scouts
(not at this event) were being taught a radical feminist agenda in their troops,
and that they had taken their girls out of the organization."
re:Dave Dwould you be willing to send your 12 year old son in to the
back woods camping for a week with some of those "gay brothers" leaders
you speak of?
What a bunch of sellouts. If the BSA really thought there was a problem with gay
scoutmasters and scouts, why did they issue their statements last year to the
contrary? They didn't mind that they lost the exiled scoutmasters or den
leaders and they didn't mind that they lost all those eagle scouts who
protested. It wasn't until they started loosing corporate sponsors that
they decided to do anything about it. What a bunch of charlatans.
Re: USALover"Being "gay" is a condition of mortality. Nobody
will be "gay" in the hereafter."====No one will be
disabled, physically or mentally, nor will they be encumbered by illness. They
will also not have to endure a society based on ensuring that some people remain
in abject poverty. That doesn't mean these things don't
exist in the present. Rather than being concerned about what a deity may or may
not do in the future, how about we worry about what we can do in the here and
now to each other.
"I cannot imagine Lord Baden-Powell ever considering homosexuality as a
virtue for his scouts to emulate. "Can you say
"strawman"? Acceptance and emulating are far from the same
thing.I look at it this way. It is very difficult to believe (using
logic) that people choose to be gay.Many Religious people seem to have a
need to believe that, otherwise it would mean that God made them that way. How can so many look at this issue and believe that this is the life
that people choose? It just makes NO logical sense.
Remember to have same-sex attraction is not a sin. To act upon that attraction
is. This is the problem with this whole thing. The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-Day Saints is very clear on this issue and they are very clear on
same-sex marriage. Neither are in line with the law of chasity. Therefore, if
the LDS Church remains in the scouts and puts forth its own guidelines. Those
will be in line with the law of chasity and the LDS Church's definition of
marriage. There will be someone who will come in to fight those guidelines
pushing the Church into a law suit. Since, the national organization would
allow gays to be scouts and leaders the church would be there without a leg to
stand on regardless what has been stated to allow organizations such as the
Church to administer their program. In the end the Church would withdraw from
the Scouts to keep itself free of any such lawsuit.
Have you all still not read the release?How will anything change
unless the troop wants it to change.What is the big deal? Are you
all worried about what some other troop in some other state may do?I
really don't get what all the uproar is.Let me restate what
many fail to understand.The LDS scout troops have no requirement to
make a change that allows gay scouts or leaders.period.
I am an Eagle Scout with 3 boys. We will have nothing to do with BSA if this
Agreed that troops can choose their own path. But do we think it will stay that
way? In a few more years will it become required for troops to allow homosexual
boys and leaders?Scouting is unlike nearly any other organization
because it involves boys and leaders camping out in the middle of nowhere for a
week at a time.Yes, I am fully aware of scout rules regarding two
deep leadership and that camping is sometimes done in a developed (well
populated) scout camp. But the two deep leadership rule is not always a
sufficient protection and high adventure camping is done in wilderness.The issue is not always pedophilia. Should we allow a scout who just turned
adult to be a leader if he is gay (essentially a 19 year old assistant leader
with 16 and 17 year old scouts)? Would we allow a 19 year old female leader?
If not, why not and what is the difference?What about two gay scouts
bunking together? If we allowed female scouts, could a boy and girl bunk
together? Again, if not one, why not the other?I am not sure of all
the answers but undoubtedly this complicates things.
I don't believe in mistreating homosexuals whatsoever; however, I am not
entirely comfortable with my husband or son(s) sharing a tent with a homosexual.
Am I worried a homosexual will assault them? Not at all. I just think
it's particularly awkward with changing and taking care of personal needs.
I know my husband would not be wanting to worry about another man checking him
out while he's getting ready for the day. I wouldn't be comfortable
with that if it were a lesbian. Now I'll wait to get blasted... but
I'm just honest.
Here's a point for all of you to consider. Scouts Canada is both co-ed and
allows gay leaders and youth. The LDS Church is still a major charter partner
with Scouts Canada. Since the LDS Church as had experience dealing with the
situation in Canada, why would they leave the BSA?
If the BSA allows homosexual boys to join, I am okay with that as long as they
also provide a clear definition of what it means to be morally straight. The
world has lost an understanding of what that means, therefore I would suppose
many of the boys in scouting, both hetrosexual and homosexual have as well. If
the BSA as a whole strengthens their commitment to scouts being morally
straight, meaning no sex outside of marriage, then the LDS Church should have no
difficulty in continuing to support the scout program.
As I have read these comments I have at times smiled, at other times frowned and
mostly was not surprised. However, I have serious reservations regarding the
definition of morally straight in the Scout Oath being used here. It is so much
more than descriptive of sexual preference. It is about living a life of
integrity and honesty. It is about living up to commitments, and avoiding making
commitments that are not part of what you want to be. It is having the courage
to seek ways to daily improve one's station in life and one's
spiritual, mental, physical, and emotional health. It is about resisting
temptations of many kinds including but not limited to sexual dalliance with
either gender or self-abuse. It is about choosing to be a contributing part of
the community we live in. Wake up people. If persons who think of themselves as
"gay" want to participate in Scouting, then they would automatically be
exposed to the Scout Oath and Law which in turn, if adhered to and honored,
would effect their position as "gay" at least in how they choose to
Note to John Wilson: In the Boy Scout Handbook . . . and morally
straight.To be a person of strong character, your relationships with
others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of
all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your
religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life
of virtue and self-reliance.Excerpted from page 45-46, Boy Scout Handbook,
11th ed,(#33105), copyright 1998 by BSA, ISBN 0-8395-3105-2
For those of you that think that a church can be sued to force it to accept
leaders, scout leaders, or employees that don't support the standards of
the church need to read the Hosanna-Tabor v. EEOC decision of the U.S. Supreme
Court. That decision shuts the door on that.
Re: Patriot"would you be willing to send your 12 year old son in
to the back woods camping for a week with some of those "gay brothers"
leaders you speak of?"My brother used to have sleepovers at a
friend's house whose father was gay. Neither I nor my parents had any
problem with it.I would have no more of a problem sending my sons
with gay leaders who were called to that position by my Bishop, than I would
sending them on a camping trip with heterosexual leaders. Before I send my kids
out, my list of questions doesn't include "Are you gay?" They
include, "Do you have first aid supplies? Do you need any help? When are
you planning on getting back?" I'm more concerned about my kids'
safety, than if a guy is gay. Gay people aren't any more or less a danger
to my sons than heterosexual people.
Note to J in AZ. "to be clean in your speech and actions". It was not
that many years ago, that statement was clearly understood to mean chaste. It
is no longer clearly understood, again amoung both heterosexual and homosexual
persons. That is the part I want to see the BSA take a strong stand on. If
they will not, then they are no longer an organization I can support.
Also, to J in AZ. "a life of virtue" also used to be clearly
understood. Today's shifting morals leave that part no longer clear to
many. My recommendation to the BSA is to make clear to the world what it means
Mr. Wilson,Wisely BSA leaves the definition of what 'a life of
virtue' means up to the parents of the youth and the organizations that
sponsor scouting units. It would be a serious display of arrogance for them to
presume to define what that means. BSA works with lots of religious groups that
don't agree with each other on what morality fully means as well as lots of
groups that sponsor scouting that think that this whole controversy is just
silly. It is not the place of the BSA to pick one meaning over another.
Homosexual men should not take boy scouts camping for the same reason that
heterosexual men should not take Beehive girls camping.
So glad to see the BSA considering this change. Up until I moved last October,
I was a scout leader in my LDS ward, and the BSA's anti-gay policy bothered
me. If one of the boys in my priests quorum came out as gay, church policy was
that I was supposed to encourage him to keep participating. He can hold a
temple recommend and I can take him to do baptisms, but according to the BSA I
was supposed to tell him he couldn't come to scout camp? I decided if the
situation came up, I would go with the church policy and ignore the scouting
anti-gay policy. I am so glad they are finally talking about this change. It is
I assume some type of letter from the First Presidency will be read over the
pulpit either this Sunday or the next. It had to come to this. How else could
a young man be worthy of the Aaronic Priesthood and receive it or an adult man
be worthy of a Temple Recommend yet be denied membership in the scout troop or
in the adult's case a calling as a scout leader because of same sex
attractions and saying they are gay? When the church made the distinction some
time ago between same sex attractions and acting on those attractions it had to
come to this conclusion. I think it is the Lord's way of saying, I want to
keep these individuals close to me and if they forsake the practices or have
never done them and live the commandments there is no need to withhold anything
from them. If indeed the church has led the national scouting organization to
this position then I applaud the effort.
As a Scout leader in an LDS unit, I believe scouting makes boys better men. Gay
or not, if you leave scouts as a better man, thank you for showing up. There
are plenty of heterosexual kids that could care less about what kind of man they
turn out to be. I don't know why some would want to lump gay
people in the same pile as child molesters. Child molesters that prey on kids
of the same sex are not gay, they are predators. Predators look for victims
don't care what sex you are, they are only looking for victims.
From what I see in these comments, the main point seems to be entirely missed
here. Scouting has always been, from the beginning, an organization with
faith-based moral values and ethical practices. "Morally straight" in
the BSA Oath means precisely what it says. Allowing practicing homosexuals to
lead these boys, is to expose them to the almost irresistible temptation to
"experiment" with some of their more vulnerable young men. This has
already happened too many times, as the unfortunately long and growing list of
abuse cases within the BSA all too well demonstrates. Insofar as admitting young
men who either admit to being gay, or think they are, the code of conduct
remains fixed - for now. Any kind of sexual misconduct is forbidden, as an
honor-bearing scout, no matter what or to whom one is attracted to. By allowing
individual troops to determine what is or is not "morally straight" is
to virtually destroy BSA from the inside out, and the code of conduct which has
stood for over a century, will vanish.
OK, all you LDS folks who want the Church to drop Scouting, or make it like the
Young Women.....you just don't get it. Boys learn differently than girls.
Boys learn best when outdoors, when challenged, when they achieve goals. Girls
learn best when they feel good about themselves. This is taught in Scout leader
training, most school teachers understand it and if one looks at Elder
Christofferson's address from last Conference, you see it there too.
Trying to make boys learn like the girls do is a recipe for failure. Scouting
was adopted to replace the Church's own scouting program in 1913 and those
reasons are still valid today. If your ward is losing boys at 14, fix your
Varsity program! If the program is weak the boys will leave! Don't blame
the program for the shortcomings of the leaders, trying to present a small slice
of Scouting and then wondering why the boys leave is blind....
We went through this in Canada years ago.....there is no "ban" at the
National level on gay leaders, however, each sponsor is allowed to have their
own rules for admission, which for the Church would mean no pracicing gays could
hold the calling of a Scout leader. For the past decade+ this has not been an
issue here. As for a gay youth, I don't think they were ever
"banned" in Scouts Canada (such a rule would be more restrictive than in
the Church, where no such rule exists).
jttheawesomeScranton, PAFrom what I see in these comments, the main
point seems to be entirely missed here. Scouting has always been, from the
beginning, an organization with faith-based moral values and ethical practices.
"Morally straight" in the BSA Oath means precisely what it says. By allowing individual troops to determine what is or is not
"morally straight" is to virtually destroy BSA from the inside out, and
the code of conduct which has stood for over a century, will vanish.___________I can see non religious sponsored troops suffering as a
result of this. Individuals and groups will refuse to donate or support. Because
they belong to the BSA which also includes church sponsored troops, which can
set their own limits.
"morally straight" is defined in the Scout Handbook, page 23, as
"your relationships with other should be honest and open. Respect and
defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions and be
faithful in your religious beliefs."So, who is missing the
"Homosexual men should not take boy scouts camping for the same reason that
heterosexual men should not take Beehive girls camping."@JSB How
do you know that celibate Gay LDS men are not already taking boy scouts camping?
One of the definitions of "morally straight" in the LDS faith is
abstinence from premarital sex. If a young man who happens to have a sexual
attraction to other young men never acts on his urges and never announces his
sexual preference, who would know? "Don't ask, don't tell" is
the perfect policy for scouting because there is nothing to be gained by either
the scout or the organization from making a big deal of it. Homosexuals seem to
have a need to announce to the straight world that they are gay. I, for one,
really don't care as long as that preference doesn't affect my life.
I do think that adult supervision of camping activities will take on new
significance if openly gay boys are bunked with straight boys, just as if
teen-age girls were allowed to share tents with teen-aged boys.
gchris,Don't ask, don't tell policies do not work either
for the individual or the organization. Many individuals with same sex
attractions need to, want to and do talk to their spriritual advisors about
those attractions. That is what sprititual guidance is all about. Helping
others when they seek guidance. I don't think Jesus Christ would just tell
people with same sex attractions to sit quietly and keep your mouth shut. Under
the current BSA policy anyone who discusses these attractions to a spritual
advisor would have to be excluded from scouting even if they were not
practicing. This is what is being corrected here with the new policy. No one
in the LDS church is suggesting that a practicing gay person would hold a
leadership position or have active participation in scouting.
JackAurora, CO"morally straight" is defined in the Scout
Handbook, page 23, as "your relationships with other should be honest and
open. Respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and
actions and be faithful in your religious beliefs."___________________________As a Scout Leader in an LDS unit, I
agree with Jack.
If you think gay leaders would not have an affect on young men you have never
been active in theater. Grooming. Always grooming.
As a member of both the LDS Church and the BSA I believe that there are many
obstacles facing the pending change to allow Homosexuals into the BSA program. I
would like to address the position of the LDS Church on Homosexuals as members
of the Church. The truth is that as a homosexual member they cannot be active in
their lifestyle the Church is quite clear on this. The LDS Church accepts the
homosexual member but not the sin of an active homosexual. As a Scoutmaster I
believe that The Nation BSA should not be making changes in its present position
of not allowing homosexual members because they cannot exclude active
Homosexuals from its program. This is the difference between the LDS Church and
the BSA. I am quite confident that the LDS Church will reject any promotion of
active homosexuality in its Scouting programs and I hope that next week when the
National BSA Board meets and votes on this issue they will keep the present
position of protecting the values of 103 years of scouting and stay the course
of honesty and integrity in supporting moral and decency in all of its programs.
Sincerely, Trenton Spears
If the BSA does this they are asking for trouble. Probably many gays could be
trusted to not act on desires, why tempt them? They should be given respect as
fellow human beings, but it is not worth the increased risk.
Happy Valley Heretic says he is "sorry for those who believe that
homosexuals include anymore pedophiles than the heterosexual population."16% of pedophile offenders (the vast majority of whom are men) target
exclusively boys. Homosexual men do not comprise 16% of the male population --
it's more like 2%. Thus, whereas the large majority of homosexual men are
not pedophiles, the population as a whole contains more than 8 times as many
pedophiles as the comparable heterosexual population.Not politically
correct, but math is math.
Do you send your kids to public school? Scouting is like a public
education, however so far most LDS people send their kids to a private Scouting
education. There are both advantages and disadvantages. So if the LDS church
shuts down its private schools, all those kids will have to choose no
school/home school vs public school. I have in the past at time sent
my kids to a school sponsored troop and a LDS sponsored troop at the same time.
Double the education for almost double the price. It was worth it but when my
son decided to do more sports we now only have time for one Scout troop. Since I
have seen the advantages for myself and since I can choose my "scout
school" I have no problem with my son attending a "public" Scout
troop. You can not buy another program like Scouting overnight, it
has taken a 100 years. My kids don't have another 100 years to wait. Oh, go ask you dad when was the first time or the last time he attended
a city meeting or wrote a senator/congressman, I bet you he says when he was a
I appreciate the stress and the strain that has been levied against the BSA now
for several years. I also appreciate the proposed wording that individual units
would be allowed to function as the see fit.Concerns that I might
have otherwise is that law suits might be levied against any units which
resisted allowing Gay leadership. As many have stated before, this is a private
organization and should be allowed to operate as they see fit.Those
who claim discrimination are not required to participate and are free to create
their own private institutions. The very core of freedom hinges on much of this
issue. As American citizens we have long enjoyed freedoms which allow us to act
as we see fit; so long as those actions do not infringe upon another's
freedom. We may freely eat junk food, or purchase a car in the color of our
choice. We may associate with people of our choosing, be they well mannered or
crude. But the choice is ours to make - and should remain that way.
As I read through these comments I'm surpised at how many times someone has
said they are an active member of the LDS church and applaud the BSA and this
new change. Are there really this many active members who think this way or does
the homosexual community have an army of militant bloggers posing as active
members or perhaps in some cases posting multple times under different names?
It's amusing that BSA have even had this policy in place. Perhaps after
seeing that the US Armed Forces haven't collapsed with the removal of DADT,
they realise it's not as big an issue as they thought. Let's hope civility and reason are the outcome in this vote. Let's
also hope that young men and leaders, regardless of their sexual orientation,
can mingle and develop a friendship built on trust, respect and all of the good
virtues espoused by the Scout movement.
Can someone answer this question if I was homosexual either active or not active
could I receive a Temple recommend Sincerely, Trenton
Why are so many DN subscribers so hateful and unhappy about life? It is so odd
to me...you dislike gays, you dislike gay young men, you hate Obama, what next?
Will you hate women who still love their liberal children who voted for Obama
and are gay? I for one welcome the change. It's time institutions are no
longer allowed to rampantly discriminate based on sexual orientation. I've
been targeted for sexual harassment by more straight married men than any gay
woman and I would bet that statistically heterosexual men (married and in their
30s- 50s) are the biggest perpetrators of sexual assault against young boys than
any other group. All of my male friends who were physically, psychologically
and sexually abused were treated this way by uncles, brothers, fathers and male
figures close to the family. All of these men were married or in serious
relationships with women, this ban on gays is about people's ignorant and
unfounded fears. I hope the church gets out of this business of blatant
intolerance and stands behind the BSA if they lift the ban.
The question I have is this: Why does the LDS church lean on an outside
organization to help with their young men program? Can't the church devise
a YM program to build spiritually strong young men to become successful
missionaries, husbands and fathers and future priesthood holders? Why be
involved in a private organization with it's own set of rules & regs,
policies, procedures, etc...??? I've always wondered why.
As I've thought about the implications of this, even though they would
allow local units to decide how to act, it seems that each council would have
"gay" troops or troops that allow gay leaders or members. When I donate
to Friends of Scouting each year, I am donating to my local council who then
uses that money to support troops in the council. Therefore if Gays
are admitted to Boy Scouts, when I donate to Friends of Scouting, I am
supporting gay troops and members in my local council.I'll have
to think long and hard about donating to Friends of Scouting if this change
happens."On my honor, I will do my best ... to be morally
@Trenton Spears:You can hold a temple recommend as long as you do
not act on homosexual urges. Just like a person who was an alcoholic for years
who sobers up, but 10 years down the road still has to fight his cravings, as
long as he does not act on those cravings, there's nothing holding him back
from having a temple recommend. Its like all the young men and women
who want to go on a mission. They need a temple recommend. I'm sure most
of those young people have heterosexual urges, but as long as they are in
control of those urges, you can hold a temple recommend.
I suspect that the BSA national organization has already consulted with some of
the major organizations prior to announcing this decision. Many posts are
questioning whether the Catholic or LDS or other groups will stop affiliating
with the BSA. The big ones won't I suspect because they have likely been
at least consulted. Even if they haven't, major leaders of the major
organizations are also on the Executive board for scouts and so there is some
representation of these larger organizations even if only through individuals.
Bottom line, if it happens, I doubt it will have much of an impact.
How and when will we all vote? Thanks!
I've read many of the comments, and NONE seems to address the root issue:
Adult leader's sexual actions or thoughts should never be allowed to be
"outed" while the adult is leading youth activities -- such matters just
don't belong there! While BSA fought hard under the right of association to
allow only non-homosexual leaders, even as we speak it would be out of line with
BSA's youth policy to have a heterosexual openly discussing their sexual
details. Doesn't matter what the adult's sexual appetite is, there is
no right basis to be "out" unless the adult is promoting some ulterior
motive within their role in BSA. To this end, many here commented there are
surely gay leaders now, but the difference is those leaders cannot, must not,
and are never allowed to identify or "promote" their sexual beliefs.
(BSA does not have anti-gay police forces to spy on people or sift out details
of their personal lives... if you're not open/active/out, there's no
reason for them to question it!)
The LGBT movement is just that, a movement to change society. Organizations
like InterPride list as one of their objectives, to seek equality. Most will
sympathize with that when that idea is applied to insurance, or life/death
decisions, etc., but that's not the total of the movement's goal.
It's about acceptance. Acceptance of a lifestyle that God has called sin.
If the Church accepted the BSA's proposed change, it would by necessity be
allowing the movement of the gay lifestyle to advance in it's goal of
acceptance. And thereby be in contradiction to God.
The "morally straight" reference was never about sexuality.
If you believe in freedom then you support letting homosexuals into the BSAIf you support freedom for only people who are just like you; well
It would be a good thing for the LDS church to free the boy scouts from their
control. They could start their own organization instead of taking over another.
Considering how much coverage Gay rights command from nagative driven readers,
someone from another planet would wonder if gays were some form of fountain of
youth and made the world go round all wrapped into one. I think I'll go
for a walk!
@Coug420Consider scouts who are not part of an LDS troop—whose
leaders do not hold temple recommends. You mentioned measures that are already
in place to protect scouts; however, I highly doubt parents would feel
comfortable enough to send their scouts on an overnighter where homosexual men
(who openly admit they are sexually attracted to men) will be present. Parents
of scouting are not likely to compromise the welfare of their scouts just so
leaders can have equal rights. Some commenters on this site have recognized that
sending their scout on an overnighter with self-declared gay leaders is the same
as sending their daughter on an overnighter with heterosexual men.This opinion is not homophobic. It’s not religious. It just makes
biological sense. Perhaps it would be best to combine Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts
altogether to satisfy the demands for equality.