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High school sports: Hearing on realignment offers no easy answers

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  • Ironmomo Ogden, Utah
    Nov. 29, 2012 9:38 a.m.

    I don't understand the board's reasoning sometimes...well make that most of the time.

    They recently told the Ben Lomond High School administration that the population of the alternative High School, George Washington High, would be included in the student population of Ben Lomond because it resides within their boundaries. This decision pushed Ben Lomond's overall student population up over the limit and into a higher classification where it makes it difficult for them to compete. Even though very few of the students at the alternative high school participate in sports; the board felt it necessary to include GW in.

    Can't wait until two years from now for the next realignment process when the board will probably come up with the bright idea to include the Utah School for the Deaf and Blind and the Millcreek Youth Correctional Facility in Ben Lomond’s population count. After all those facilities lie within the boundaries of Ben Lomond as well.

  • footballisgood Holladay, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 10:12 a.m.

    The East-West proposal for 5A makes way too much sense, adopt it!!

  • Me, Myself and I The Promised Land, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 10:36 a.m.

    Since when is competition about everyone being on a level playing field. If making every school competitive in every activity is what the UHSAA is after all they'll accomplish is giving themselves a big headache every two years while ticking off one school to appease another. The UHSAA shouldn't worry about making any team or club competitive, that is the responsibility of the individual schools, their administrators, coaches, students etc. All the UHSAA can really do is group schools together first off by enrollment keeping the ratio of the biggest and smallest schools in all classifications as close as possible. Travel and geography while they should be addressed shouldn't be a deciding factor. As far as rivalries are concerned they too should be the responsibility of individual schools and can live on even if teams are in different classifications.

    A fair and level playing field only means each team is held to the same regulations and rules. Not each team is competitive with all their opponents.

  • binghamalum South Jordan, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 10:41 a.m.

    You have to have a full 5A region in Utah County! You have to

    Lone Peak, PG, AF, Lehi, Westlake, and I'm sorry but Timpview should be 5A!
    That could be region 4,

    Putting Bingham, Riverton, Herriman, Copper Hills, West Jordan, and Tville.

    That right there would make travel arrangements at an all time low!

    Binghams farthest game would be to Herriman,
    Lone Peak would have to only to out to West Lake, which is better then driving Bingham and playing.

    Region 1 should have its own region like they do.

    The big deal is the 4a-5A schools who we determine just off Enrollment.
    Saying West is a 5A school, but East is a 4A school, dumb!
    Skyline has plumeted to 4A,

    But just make sure there is 6 5A teams in utah county.

    Make sure Spanish Fork is going 4A, no more 3A for that school is takes MASSIVE pride inthere sports programs!

  • Old ball coach Sandy, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 11:25 a.m.

    5A should have gone like this:

    Region 1- layton, Northridge, Syarcuse, Fremont, Davis, Viewmont, Weber.... (North)

    Region 2- Jordan, Alta, Cottonwood, Taylorsville, West, Brighton.......(East)

    Region 3- West Jordan, Copper Hills, Herriman, Bingham, Riverton, Hunter.....(West)

    Region 4- Lone Peak, American Fork, Pleasant Grove, Lehi, Westlake, Mountain View....(South)

    *Granger stays 4A
    *North stays the same
    *Region 2 is East of Redwood Road, close to I-15
    Region 3 is West of Redwood Road, Close to Bangerter
    Region 4 is all Utah County!

    Not as hard as UHSAA makes it out to be!

  • Me, Myself and I The Promised Land, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 11:28 a.m.

    Here is how I would divide the classifications for football.

    1A Ratio 2.05 to 1
    1A West
    Enterprise
    Parowan
    Kanab
    Milford
    Diamond Ranch

    1A East
    Whitehorse
    Monument Valley
    Monticello
    Altamont
    Duchesne
    Rich

    2A Ratio 2.3 to 1

    2A South
    San Juan
    Grand
    Emery
    N. Sevier
    S. Sevier
    Beaver
    Gunnison

    2A North
    N. Summit
    S. Summit
    Millard
    Delta
    ALA
    Summit Academy
    Manti

    3A Ratio 2.11 to 1

    3A South
    Canyon View
    Cedar
    Hurricane
    Desert Hills
    Juab
    N. Sanpete

    3A North
    Bear River
    Carbon
    Juan Diego
    Union
    Grantsville
    Morgan
    Judge

    4A Ratio 1.61 to 1

    Pine View
    Dixie
    Snow Canyon
    Salem Hills
    Spanish Fork
    Payson

    Orem
    Provo
    Maple Mountain
    Timpanogas
    Mountain View
    Springville

    Park City
    Uintah
    Wasatch
    Corner Canyon
    Highland
    Stansbury
    Tooele

    Ben Lomand
    Ogden
    Logan
    Box Elder
    Bonneville
    Woods X

    5A Ratio 1.31 to 1 (5A and 6A Not in regions)

    Timpview
    Murray
    Skyline
    Cyprus
    Kearns
    Bountiful
    Roy
    East
    Olympus
    Sky View
    Hillcrest
    Clearfield
    Granger
    Brighton
    Mountain Crest
    Jordan
    Westlake
    West Jordan
    Taylorsville
    Viewmont
    Fremont
    Layton
    Weber
    Northridge

    6A Ratio 1.3 to 1

    Lehi
    Pleasant Grove
    Cottonwood
    Syracuse
    West
    Hunter
    Herriman
    Riverton
    American Fork
    Copper Hills
    Lone Peak
    Davis
    Bingham
    Alta

  • 2afan Layton, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 11:58 a.m.

    you forgot LCA which should stay in 1a for football. They have only 25 plyers and rarely compete.

  • Knowsabunch Ogden, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 11:58 a.m.

    4 Classifications of 32 schools each. 4 eight-team regions in each classification. Put the extra schools in 1A because most of those schools don't have all the sports anyway. Base it on population...nothing else. I hate the argument that Lone Peak can't travel to Alta becaue you change county lines, but North and South Summit can travel to San Juan and nobody cares. Everything right now is too watered down. It should mean something to win your region and even make the state playoffs, let alone win them. I could fix this issue before lunch.

  • Old ball coach Sandy, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 12:08 p.m.

    Knowsabunch.....

    To go along with your topic of meaningful region champs....how about this?

    Region Champ gets a bye in the first round...
    Second and THird seeds fight it off in quarterfinals...

    The rest are getting ready for next season....
    End the meaningless first-round blowouts and get ready for football in October!

  • Me, Myself and I The Promised Land, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 12:35 p.m.

    I had LCA in my 1A north region...just missed them when I typed it up. Thanks for pointing that out 2afan

  • Elay23 Saint George, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 12:39 p.m.

    Why dont we just keep everything the same and stop trying to make everyone happy? So many little schools are throwing a fit cause they cant compete. Hurricane is a prime example of how hard work, dedication, and consistency can make you a better team. They used to be the laughing stock of region 9. They used to be a joke. They implimented a very basic, simple, hard nose football program, and after several years they are a football power house. They have stayed in 3A the whole time. They didnt complain about not being able to compete, they did something about it. Why doesnt everyone else?

  • Me, Myself and I The Promised Land, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 12:44 p.m.

    I agree with the idea of getting rid of the inter-region play-in. In addition I say no bye weeks just take the top 8 teams in each classification and start the quarterfinals like they used to. With that format all classifications can play their respective championship games at Rice Eccles, 1A and 2A on either Friday or Saturday and 3A 4A and 5A on the other.

  • Serenity Now Highland, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 12:46 p.m.

    The 5A east-west address proposal by the Granger principal makes no sense from a competition and balancing perspective. Putting all the best sports programs in a single region (which is what his Region IV would look like with Alta, Brighton, Jordan, Lone Peak, PG and AF) is unfair to the teams within that region who would beat up on each other with only one region champ crowned, and seeding for playoffs and home-field advantage in the early rounds dictated by the happenstance of region alignment rather than quality.

    You don't believe me that the "best programs" are from southeastern SL valley and northeastern Utah valley? Here are the 5A champions in the four most popular sports (2 from boys, 2 from girls) during the past 5 years:

    Football:
    2012: Jordan (demolished Fremont)
    2011: Lone Peak
    2010: Bingham
    2009: Bingham
    2008: Alta

    Basketball (boys):
    2012: Lone Peak
    2011: Lone Peak
    2010: ???
    2009: West Jordan (against Lone Peak)
    2008: Lone Peak

    Soccer (girls):
    2012: Viewmont (against Alta)
    2011: Alta
    2010: Alta
    2009: Alta
    2008: Alta

    Volleyball (girls):
    2012: Pleasant Grove
    2011: Davis
    2010: Lone Peak
    2009: Pleasant Grove
    2008: Lone Peak

    The written plan should be adopted as is.

  • IRS Agent PROVO, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 1:23 p.m.

    The solution is simple. Let the schools decide, and create their own regions - similar to the collegiate structure. The schools that join other "like-minded" schools. If the most important thing for a school is to play in the most competitive football league, they can make that decision. The schools can choose to keep historic rivalries if they want. The schools that have the budget, or are OK with travel can get themselves in to a league that would require more travel. I have to think that the pricipals and AD's would be able to work out what is best for their school. From their, I think you could easily separate out the different classifications, based primarily on enrollment. A league that included Waterford, Rowland Hall and the Summit County schools isn't going to accept Alta, and Alta isn't going to want to play in that league. The schools could quickly work it out. If a new school ie Summit Academy comes onboard, they just petition to get in to the league that best fits their competition level. Problem solved.

  • USC Fan in Utah Spanish Fork, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 1:25 p.m.

    The one that gets me is that Payson begged to go 3AA because they couldnt compete in 4A. So, for non sports they are basically in last years region 12 with Richfield thrown in and without Spanish and Delta. But for football they are in with the St George schools? I believe you will see Payson football completely die out within a few years. I think that they should have stayed in the same region for all sports.

  • plyxply SLC, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 1:35 p.m.

    2010 5A basketball champs, Alta.

  • Scott C Ephraim, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 2:40 p.m.

    This is crazy. Way too many pans in the fire! I wish we would go to 4 classifications and have region and state mean something not have 6 champions. Not everyone needs a trophy there are great lessons learned when you don't win!

  • FatMan86 West Jordan, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 2:58 p.m.

    1A in football needs to adopt 8-man. Right now there are only 9 schools in Utah playing football at the 1A level, and according to this article, there are 4 that could die any day. So adopt 8-man for 1A, and give schools that are currently successful at 1A (like Duchesne) the option of moving up to 2A, or staying down to play 1A 8-man. Also this will give you a chance to start adding schools that currently don't play football because of their smaller numbers. Idaho has over 30 schools playing 8-man football at the 1A level right now. Here in Utah, most of the schools play baseball in the fall. That is silly! Fall is football season. Give these small school kids the chance to play the great game of football.

  • inthefield Highland, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 3:01 p.m.

    The IRS agent is on to something. Let the schools decide.

  • Me, Myself and I The Promised Land, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 3:40 p.m.

    FatMan86

    You can call 8-man ball what you want but to me it's not football. It resembles is but isn't the same. The closest thing I can compare 8-man to is intramural flag football with pads. When your entire offensive playbook is pretty much trick plays and any number is eligible to be a receiver it just doesn't sit quite right. Most teams I know that play 8-man would rather play 11-man even if it meant going "ironman" but their state associations etc won't allow them to. 8-man equals a program on life support, not football.

    Secondly you wouldn't add many schools even to 8-man. Most of the larger 1A school currently don't play football at all. Why would they decide to if 1A played 8-man? Milford has 85 students in their top 3 classes and along with Rich (90 students in their top 3) play football and Rich is highly competitive. Panguitch, Wendover, Pinnacle, Wayne, St. Joseph and Legacy are all larger and could field 11-man teams but don't. So why would they decided to play if there was 8-man in Utah?

  • Basin Born Roosevelt, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 3:55 p.m.

    FatMan86 is on the right track, I have been telling people this for the past few years. If the current 1A schools wanted to move up and play 2A they could and the rest of the 1A schools that play basketball could play 8 man football. I think these schools would love it and it would give kids an opportunity to participate. Is that not what the UHSAA is all about?

    The only other question I have is how do you let Judge move to 4A in all other sports and leave them at 3A for football, they should be in the same classification as Juan Diego.

  • Unbelievable West Jordan, Utah
    Nov. 29, 2012 4:28 p.m.

    I don't know what the key to success is, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone. Keep it simple.

  • Rural sport fan DUCHESNE, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 5:42 p.m.

    Some of the larger 1A schools that don't play football have a justified fear of losing a winning tradition. Wayne and Panguitch have some real pride in baseball, and they understandably don't want to lose that.

    I don't think the top 4 1A teams would mind competing with the smaller 2A teams on a yearly basis, no matter what the classification was called. But there is a huge difference in playing a team that has 350 kids in three grades and puts 40 kids in uniform, versus a school with 275 kids and 65 kids in uniform.

  • Rural sport fan DUCHESNE, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 5:43 p.m.

    Dividing by numbers and telling folks to deal with it is fine on paper, but without some parity, programs and kids tend to suffer, no one wants to play for a team that has no chance, and when a team with 75 kids plays a team with 25 in uniform, there is a real mismatch there, no matter how big the student body is, or how close that silly ratio is.

    As for the travel issue..it is obscene that the large schools cry about traveling 20-40 minutes for a game, when the smaller schools travel 4-5 hours (and more) for half of their season.

  • Ball Boy Payson, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 6:30 p.m.

    Re: Scott C

    2011-2013---Manti has won at least 4 State Championships as the largest school in 2A. (football 2x, softball, soccer)

    2009-2011---Manti won 0 State Championships as the smallest school in 3A.

    If those lessons that come from losing are so wonderful why is it that Manti works so hard to stay in 2A?

  • Orem Parent Orem, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 7:10 p.m.

    Orem schools got the shaft on this one. Way to kill the Provo/Orem rivalries. Pathetic.

  • FatMan86 West Jordan, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 7:36 p.m.

    @ Me, Myself and I

    I'm guessing you've never played 8-man football. I played both 8-man and 11-man in high school and the 8-man game was significantly more fun. Call it pretend football or whatever, each to his own, but it's not all trick plays and it's extremely fun to play the linebacker and safety positions defensively. I once played in a game that ended in a 6-0 score. There is plenty of room for good defense at that level. The main reason most of the 1A non-football schools won't consider playing the game is they don't feel that they can be competitive with Duchesne, Monticello, Rich, etc. If those schools are truly committed to 11-man, then why not allow the rest to form their own 8-man region and at least give them the experience of playing football. You think 8-man is silly, it's nowhere near as silly as playing baseball during football season.

  • why play SAINT GEORGE, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 7:58 p.m.

    @Me, Myself and I

    I think you need to include all schools in order for your breakdown to make sense. I'm not sure who all might be missing, but I do know Richfield would like to continue playing football. Or does that make your bracketing not work out?

  • 2A-Fan Enterprise, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 8:58 p.m.

    I like the way Me Myself and I is thinking his alignment would help 1A a ton.

  • Veracity Morgan, UT
    Nov. 30, 2012 9:08 a.m.

    Unequal representation...

    What is not right is the fact that when the first alignment came out and some schools were upset with the format, they were allowed to voice their opinion to the Board of Trustees...meaning they had their voice heard and effectively made changes to help them...so the final format comes out, after their voice, and whomever was happy with the first alignment and unhappy with the final format could not voice their opinion...very, very unfair! It would behoove every school during the next realignment to voice concern so they can be heard...do not be happy with the first proposal because it will change and you will not have a voice in the final format.

    The BOT should be ashamed with this oversight and not allowing the playing field to be equal to all.

    But then again, the UHSAA almost always listens to a few vocal ones and not the whole...the UHSAA is at times a great organization and at other times you wonder if anyone of them have a IQ over 50.

  • Me, Myself and I The Promised Land, UT
    Nov. 30, 2012 9:20 a.m.

    why play

    Sorry for the mistake. I missed Richfield when I typed it up but didn't forget them or leave them out. I had them in the 3A South with Canyon View, Cedar, Hurricane, Desert Hills, Juab and N. Sanpete.

    FatMan

    I have never played 8-man ball but I am very familiar with it and have first hand experience with it every season. I will concede that it is better than nothing but my point was if smaller 1A schools like Rich can field an 11-man team and compete then bringing 8-man football to Utah for 1A so more schools would participate probably wouldn't help. I think Rural Sports Fan hit on the reason they don't play is because of fall baseball and that is where those school's tradition is.

    The number of kids you put in uniform is dependent on schools building their programs from within not being aligned from outside. I've seen 3A teams that can only put 40 kids in uniform out of almost 800 in the student body and 2A schools have close to 100 kids out of 400. Traditions are built and lost from within not given and taken from outside.

  • Jackalope CLEARFIELD, UT
    Nov. 30, 2012 9:23 a.m.

    @ Serenity Now, if you're going to try to puff out your chest and proclaim the "SL valley and northeastern Utah valley" teams should not have to be in the same region (Even though it geographically makes sense), at least get your facts straight. Your 2012 Champion Beetdiggers played against Region 1 Champ Syracuse, not Fremont. And while Jordan is a great team, don't forget Syracuse lost their starting QB in the Quarters, during their victory over Alta. Not to mention, Syracuse followed that up in the Semi's with a dominant victory over another one of your Region 4 "unbeatable" Bingham Miners, with a back up QB.
    In addition, if you're going to try to drive your point home by putting the runner-up in parenthesis when it favors Region 4's case, might I suggest listing the runner-up from other years. It might surprise you, that Region 1 sends its fair share of teams to the title game as well, and their region is set up geographically, and not based off number of talented teams in the same region.

  • Jackalope CLEARFIELD, UT
    Nov. 30, 2012 9:27 a.m.

    Correction to my previous post: I mean Region 3 not 4. Oops!

  • USC Fan in Utah Spanish Fork, UT
    Nov. 30, 2012 10:09 a.m.

    Anybody know if East High School's principal held true to his promise of resigning if the board allowed East to play in the playoffs?

  • troubs Enterprise, UT
    Nov. 30, 2012 9:43 p.m.

    Makes no sense that Kanab was moved down but Parowan and Enterprise which are almost the same size stay up. I guess as long as long as the larger classification work out who cares about the lower classes?

  • Swishfrom3 Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 1, 2012 1:22 a.m.

    Re USC Fan

    Of course the East principle backed away from his statement. He ran away from that faster than a 10 legged mongoose. I believe he said after.."it wouldn't be fair to the school to not have his talents". Joke city.

  • ummmm utah, UT
    Dec. 1, 2012 7:52 a.m.

    Why is Timpview and Juan Diego not moving up a classification????