Chuch is church, and politics is politics. Any chance we can keep those
separate? It would do our nation so much good.
@HUTTERITE. Keeping government edicts out of religion, in particular
establishing religion, is the only constitutional issue. Wishing people would
check their personal beliefs (be they "religious," "ethical,"
"moral," "fiscal," "humanitarian," whatever) at the door
is dictatorial. Voters SHOULD vote their conscience, not censor their
conscience to satisfy someone else.
Hutterite,John Adams, you know, one of the founding fathers, 2nd president
of the united states, said that our constitution REQUIRES a religious people; it
is wholly inadequate for anything else. I give more credence to Mr. Adams.
From the article: "The vice president of the United States just made a moral
case for murder. Shocking."Please, let's stop saying
abortion is murder. When people say abortion is murder, they're actually
saying that the LDS Church supports murder because the Church says abortion is a
permissible choice in four different circumstances.When people say
abortion is murder, they're saying Biblical prophets favored murder of the
unborn because 1. they authorized stoning to death of adulterous women, some of
whom would have been pregnant, 2. they ordered the slaying of non-Israelite
pregnant women, 3. they advocated use of "poison water" to induce
abortion in some cases, etc.While I'm not saying I agree with
everything in the Bible, I do agree with Mitt Romney's previous position of
supporting Roe v. Wade.
Steve,nice job parsing.The LDS church condones killing in
certain circumstances like war, death penalty in certain circumstances, etc.;
just as it condones abortion in certain circumstances. But it otherwise
believes killing and abortion should be prohibitedHowever, biden,
his party, and their radical allies like NARAL want NO restrictions whatsoever
on abortion. To compare the LDS stance on abortion to legalized killing is
@lost in DCYou should use more precise language: they want no
GOVERNMENTAL restrictions on abortion. Some of them may still support efforts to
educate or convince people away from choosing abortion depending on
circumstances. A lot of people who are in favor of "freedom to choose"
see abortion, at least in some casres, as immoral. But they don't want
government trying to parse out the details and exceptions. FYI, I
am not saying my personal opinion on what abortion laws should look like; I am
just trying to understand the viewpoint of many others out there, very probably
including Steve Warren. There are quite a few things that I consider immoral
which I nevertheless do not believe government should be involved in, so I can
see the point of reference.
Another thought for "lost in DC." Also, your effort to
contrast LDS Church exceptions for abortion with killings justified by war and
capital punishment is illogical. If we give full human status to a fetus, and
then we take it's life via abortion due to rape or incest (most common
justification for conservative thinkers), it is still an innocent life (it is
not a victim of war nor being punished for it's own crimes). How does this
make sense?To me, the LDS Church policy implies that an unborn baby
does not have full status as a human being in the world (else why could we allow
it to be murdered just because its father was a violent felon?). If it has full
status, then we and the laws of our land should reflect that, and we should
protect the innocent, without exception (other than life of the mother, because
essentially we're being asked to choose between two lives....a terrible
dilemma). If the unborn does not have full status, then we need to recognize
that there is much more complexity, and very likely government should have very
Joe Moe,Are you then saying, as Mr. Warren said, that because the chuch
allows abortion in some circumstance, we should have no governmental
restrictions whatsoever on it? I think that is an illogical argument.I am not privy to the discussions surrounding the development of LDS
policy.let me be more precise.To compare the LDS stance
on abortion to the legalized killing that is unfettered abortion is totally
@lost in DC Here, again, is what I said in my first post:
"Please, let's stop saying abortion is murder." In my view, few
women who have abortions qualify as murderers nor do leaders of churches who
allow abortions under certain circumstances qualify as supporters of murder.Also, Roe v. Wade does NOT allowed "unfettered abortion," as you
claim.The abortion rate would be lower in this country if the
Republican Party, Catholic Church and others did not work so hard to restrict
access to contraceptives. In other words, if you really want fewer abortions,
vote to re-elect Obama.
Steve Warren and Joe Moe: Now lets really take a look at the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints stand on abortion.It states that
abortion of anykind is sinful with the exception of Rape, Incest or where the
life of the mother or infant is at stake. It also states that in certain
circumstances where the infant would not survive for any length of time after
birth may be cause for an abortion.However, it would prefer that
where rape or incest is concerned that the child be taken to term but the mother
is not under any sin due to the reason for the pregnancy. In other words the
mother is sinless and may not have to take the child to term. She need not be
punished for nine months carrying an unwanted child through rape and incest.
However, where the woman chooses to have intercourse and gets pregnant then it
is a grievous sin to do an abortion but still leaves the choice to the woman.
She could fall under church discipline though. I don't know of any case
where this has happened yet. The LDS Church has its own welfare system for
lost in DC, I know I ramble, let me try to be concise. Point 1:
From the perspective of most conservatives, and in agreement with LDS Church
policy, abortion should be allowed without stigma or threat of discipline in the
case of rape or incest. To me, this signals an assumption that the unborn baby
has no legal/moral standing as a human being, or else why would we punish the
child (murder him/her!) for being fathered in an unfortunate circumstance? Point 2: Given this apparent accepted lack of legal/moral standing as a
member of humanity, why should government be involved in a very complicated
personal and medical decision to be made by the mother? I will
share now, for the first time, my personal views: I am very strongly against
abortion as a moral and ethical issue. I wonder if abortion is ethical even in
case of rape and incest. Were it my wife or daughter, I believe I would
recommend having the baby, with the option of putting it up for adoption if
keeping it was too difficult. But these are hard questions, and I'm still
trying to resolve him satisfactorily in my own mind.
@Joe MoeThank you for stating my feelings and the feelings of countless
others in such a human context.@ Steve C. WarrenI
totally agree with you, if the Republican Party and the Catholic Church stop
interfering in sexual education and the access to contraceptive we would have
much less abortions.I have never met anyone who would be
"glad" to have an abortion. I mean, other than in the minds of those who
feel good about themselves by judging and condemning others.
RE: Bill in Nebraska,She need not be punished for nine months carrying an
unwanted child through rape and incest? If you could ask the child (because of
rape or incest) would he say abort me? You don’t think in these conditions
he has the right to life?For you (*God)created my inmost being; you
knit me together in my mother's womb.(Psalm 139:13 NIV). And now, saith
the LORD(YHWH) that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob
again to him…,
Abortion isn't about forcing your beliefs on someone, it is about
protecting the defenseless. Since Biden believes that life begins at conception
then he is duty bound to protect the innocent. This is important to conjoin with
the idea that abortion activist first proposed that abortions would be very
rare. I think abortion for rape, incest, or life of the mother are the
"rare" exeptions. Both parties should keep their word. Abotion debate
over. 33 million abortions since 1972 is not rare.
I'm utterly amused at the plea to not call abortions murder.Yet the
blame for most of them is not upon the heads of those who request it, encourage
it or perform it.No, it's upon those religions who discourage it
because.....they also discourage the use of contraceptives.Wow! Because
contraceptives are not readily available to every kid in school across
America.This is the perfect example of those who would ask for an
abortion and all those who justify it, even if they have to twist the biblical
history to prove it, to avoid any responsibility for their actions.A true
sign of today's heartless society.
@3grandslamsThe nations in the world with the lowest abortion rates are in
western Europe (either Belgium or the Netherlands is lowest, I forget which).
Their birth rates are really low there too so it's not like they're
choosing life more. It's that their pregnancy rate is so low because they
expand contraceptive access as broadly as possible. Prevent unintended
pregnancies and you prevent people from having to even consider abortion. The
fastest way to lower abortion rates is to push things like Obamacare's
George Washington: "The United States is in no sense founded uponChristian Doctrine"Well said my friend!