So if the Country chooses Socialism you'll just tip your hat to the voters
of the other States who re-elected President Obama Mr Governor? Why he
can't he just be a stand up guy and say: " No- we're not going to
expand Medicaid to middle class families". A number of other Governors
already have. I don't want to pay taxes to pay for the healthcare of people
who can afford to pay for their own healthcare. I'm not talking about
extremely impoverished families- I don't have a problem with that. Are we
going to be like New York where 1 in 4 people are on Medicaid (with family
incomes in some cases over 100,000 dollars) and the state is cruising steadily
towards bankruptcy? Come on Gary- I know Utah is essentially a Rino state
but you have to know that welfare creates moral rot and you won't be
helping people- you'll be hurting them if you expand Medicaid.
So we need to keep the political wrangling going as long as it's possible
to use it against Obama?Yeah, it's okay to force Americans into
bankruptcy when they become ill or have pre-existing conditions. Anything to
get Mitt elected, huh?Disgusting.
@ one old man- please give us one example of an American who was forced into
bankruptcy because of an illness. Just one. You know Doctors and hospitals will
finance the cost of their treatment right? They will set you up on a payment
plan that you can afford- and if you can't pay it they write it off. So you
just give us an example - not like Harry Reid's imaginary friends- a real
person who was bankrupted by our medical system. No one has ever died from a
lack of health insurance- maybe from a lack of healthcare but once the rationing
starts we'll have lots of stories to tell..
@red state pride Are you serious? A research study done by Harvard Medical
school in 2009 found that over 60% of all Bankruptcies in America are medically
related. Also, people who have private health insurance plans are already paying
subsidizing people who choose not to purchase or cannot afford health insurance.
The new health care law will increase the coverage and liability pool, so the
long-term insurance pool is made stronger and more sustainable.
@mcdugall : as I said before ..name names.. not studies- specific examples.
He's obviously going to accept the expansion. He just wants to wait until
after the election like a coward.
RE: red state prideDo you really believe that no one has gone
bankrupt because of medical bills? I guess that's just an example of your
red state pride.
Red State Pride, so health care is free? You just show up and the doctor writes
it off if you say you can't afford it? Wow, that IS a great system. Can I
come and live in your great state? That sounds right in line with the principles
of free enterprise and personal responsibility. Excellent.
Mcdugall--Most of the relatives and friends I know just use medical as an excuse
to file the bankruptcy. Oh, I also have done property management--same excuse.
I find it interesting how many of them regularly go on cruises, Disneyland,
house full of new furniture and decorating, new wardrobes every season, children
in many activities, and eating out every night. Also, anyone who has worked in
a bank call center will tell you the same thing.
@red state prideDo a little research on your own. You need only to google
"medical debt and bankruptcy". There are scores of articles about the
problem and no such articless which deny it. To bury ones head in the sand can
only cloud ones vision.
Red State Pride:I can name 5 people that I know who declared
bankruptcy due to medical costs alone. 3 are friends and 2 are family members.
No, I will not state their names.I am currently subsidizing those
without insurance with my medical plan. ACA will reduce the amount I am paying
to cover those others because most of them will have to buy insurance or pay a
fine.The ACA actually reduces subsidies for the uninsured, that is
why the ACA reduces the deficit, coverage is paid for by a larger pool and the
fines will encourage more to buy. So, even with expanding
medicare/medicaid the deficit goes down. Sounds like something people should be
happy about, not want to repeal. The republicans new plan would just repeal the
ACA, they don't have a replacement yet. That is because the ACA is their
first option and Obama beat them to it.
Red state -- two of my children. A daughter who was a police officer injured on
the job while trying unsuccessfully to save a drowning child. She nearly
drowned herself and damage to her lungs forced her into early retirement. The
pension was very small and she lost her medical coverage. She found some
reasonably priced coverage, but after Senators Hatch and Kyl slipped their
"Healthcare Equalization Amendment" into a U.S. Navy appropriations
bill, her premiums more than tripled. She had opened a small business and so
did not qualify for assistance in Arizona. Only after she lost the business
because of her health problems did she qualify for a very minimal state program.
Bankruptcy was the result.My son had a pre-existing condition. Then there is my neighbor. An older lady not quite old enough for
medicare. Another person I know personally was a co-worker. She finally died
-- sort of the ultimate bankruptcy, wouldn't you say?Red State
-- your fantasy world is simply appalling.
Makid,the claim that Obamacare will reduce the deficit is predicated on
fantasy. Obamacare's method to reduce the deficit, is to cut payments to
medicare. Valuing the senior vote, congress has time and again rejected
reductions to medicare payments. It will not happen.Saying Obamcare
will reduce the deficit is like saying you won't get wet if you are outside
in a monsoon - so long as it doesn't rain.As for medicaid - do
not expend it, it is abused. My sister had a friend on medicaid who sprained
her knee. Rather than have a friend take her to get care, she called an
ambulance. From her point of view, why not? she wasn't paying for it.
There was no structural damage to the knee, she left with it wrapped, but an
ABMULANCE? c'mon! aside from the waste of money, what if the ambulance
had been needed for an actual emergency?Too many people on medicaid
(not all, but too many), take no thought for their health care because someone
else is paying for it. They have no co-pays, no premiums, they just mooch off
@Sally:"Most of the relatives and friends I know just use
medical as an excuse to file the bankruptcy."So you are telling
us you have friends and family who are illegally filing for bankruptcy?
Isn't part of the problem with all of this how casually you let that roll
off the tongue, that these people abusing the laws of our nation to simply avoid
facing their responsibilities? Sounds like the conservative equivalent of
welfare fraud, except those who cheat the welfare system fall on both sides of
the political spectrum. Oh, and aren't you at least morally (if
not legally) obligated to report this fraud?
redstatepride: So you really prefer anecdotal information over empirical data?
Not understanding the difference is a big problem among conservatives, IME. Even
though you have your requirements for evidence backwards, I will say that I
personally know a couple of families who have declared bankruptcy due to medical
bills. Naming them in a public forum, however, would simply be inappropriate.Medical expenses are the number one cause of bankruptcy in America. That
fact is indisputable. The idea that hospitals just bankroll those who don't
pay is simply conservative propaganda. Hospitals and Doctors sue people who
don't pay. Try getting treatment for cancer, like I have, and in the flurry
of billing overlook one bill. I promise you that they come after you for their
money with a vengeance. Also contrary to your beliefs, doctors and
hospitals do not provide any free preventative care. Sure, they will set your
broken leg, but try walking into an ER without insurance and asking for a
mammogram or colonoscopy - two important procedures that allow for the early
detection and treatment of cancer - and you will be shown the door. As a result,
uninsured Americans disproportionately die of treatable diseases like colon
Smart living decisions begin with planning and preparation. This is what I
told at a dinner sales pitch for the elderly. While taking care of my elderly
parents, several individuals clued me in that I should check into an annuity to
hide my parents savings. Then, I could help my parents apply for elderly
medicaid. I did some research and found out at the time the law had recently
changed to a five year previous purchase of an annuity was required to receive
medicaid, so I could not apply and immediately receive medicaid. We had not
planned on using it, but those who know how to use the system are taking full
advantage of it. It is not just in elderly care, it is also in other types of
welfare.Another example. Years ago, while unemployed, I was advised by a
religious leader to apply for food stamps to feed our family. I filled out a
form only to find out our car was too new, almost paid off, so we did not
qualify. The lady at the desk, who I knew said, "Too bad you didn't
change the title of your car to another relative before applying."
Expanding Medicaid is a decision for the legislative branch. Herbert can advise
the Legislature about what he thinks is best and negotiate with the people in
DC for the flexibility he wants but he does not get to vote on this issue.I suppose that, whatever legislators decide, there could be an ballot
initiative or referndum vote on this issue in 2014 .
What we need is to get cut the amount of intrusion by the government on health
insurance. As many of the liberals have pointed out, the cost of insurance is
high, and is unaffordable. The problem isn't that the insurance companies
are greedy, it is a simple fact that the government (state and federal) have
imposed 2400 mandates on insurance companies. Those mandates account for 30% to
50% of the cost of insurance.If government wanted to make it
cheaper, here is how you do it. Cut the mandates back to at least 1980's
levels. Enact tort reform, this helps in 2 ways, first it makes office visits
cheaper plus it encourages more doctors to go into fields like OB/GYN and other
fields where malpractice insurance is over $200,000/yr, and allow insurance
companies to compete across state lines.If somebody does have to
file for bankruptcy, so what? Typically they file chapter 11, which means they
lose nothing and have their debts restructured into a payment scheme that works
with their income.To problem isn't too little government
involvement, but too much involvement.
2001 I was forced into bankruptcy due to illness and what the self-insured
corporate insurance peeps called "pre-existing" conditions, which lead
to job loss because it's a right to work state and I was missing work due
to illness. Please do not think these things do not happen to everyday people.
We as Americans should help each other in times of need. What I have extra of, I
share. I have been through homelesses because landlords wanted to charge more
rent and used a 15-day vacate notice with no other prior warnings. I have been
through more unpleasant experiences due to "political" games than anyone
should be put through right down to being over the income limit by $7.00 and
being told I'd be better off quiting my job and going full blown on welfare
(years ago). This whole thing is a double edged sword that cuts in all
directions. You just need to decide what type of person you are...loving others
or only yourself.
Red Shirt, may we see some documentation -- factual documentation -- of the
truthfulness of your assertion about 2400 mandates?We need to know
if that is true or some more right wing propaganda.Thanks.
What an unbelievable lack of leadership from Herbert. Can't say I'm
surprised in the least.
lost in DC:The GAO is a non-partisan accounting group that reports
on the financial value of all bills in congress. They have reported that
Obamacare/ACA will reduce the deficit by nearly $1 Trillion in 10 years.They have also stated that repealing Obamacare/ACA will increase the
deficit by up to $250 Billion a year. That is $2.5 Trillion increase to the
deficit in 10 years.I do recommend that you research Obamacare on
your own and not listen to the talking heads on the radio. That way you get the
whole truth and not just the truth that they state.Obamacare has
already increased medical access for millions of people who wouldn't have
access. The costs have been absorbed by current policy holders as their
children have been able to be covered on their plans longer.Also,
Utah has seen the number of medicaid users increase but the costs go down. This
is due to the larger pool allowing better control over the rates.General Welfare is being promoted and provided for. Access to medical care is
increasing without increasing costs to the general public and the deficit is
Makid,I see you didn't bother looking at what I said, only that I
contradicted you. I repeat what I said, with a little added to help clarify for
you.The GAO assumptions included reductions to medicare spending,
which, as I said before, will not happen as congress fears too much the senior
vote. I admonish YOU to look at the GAO's assumptions rather than just its
conclusions and tuning in to MSNBC.Also, know that the GAO, as
stated by the former HEAD of the GAO (not by some nameless wonk on the radio, as
you implied), designs its studies to arrive at the conclusions congress
desires.As I said before, depending on what assumptions you make,
you can arrive at any conclusion you want. Obamacare will reduce deficits IF
those assumptions are all realized, just like you will stay dry in a monsoon, IF
it doesn't rain. Neither set of assumptions resemble reality in the
least.You say the costs have been absorbed by current policy holders
- you are correct, my premiums HAVE gone UP! So much for BO's lie that his
plan would REDUCE costs by $2500 per family.
Re: one old man Ogden, UTThe Democrats had a chance to replace Gov.
Herbert with one of their own in the last election. Fortunately Peter Corroon
lost that election 31.8% to 64.2%. Unless and until the Democrats can come up
with a candidate that shares our values the results in the future are very
likely to stay that way.