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Romney wins in Michigan, Arizona a 'moral victory'

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  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 28, 2012 2:03 p.m.

    It appears Mitt Romney's policy of "Let them fail" to the Auto industry isn't going over so well in home state of Michigan.

    Flip-flopping comes with a price,
    That price is called "Karma".

  • Utah Girl Vernal, UT
    Feb. 28, 2012 2:21 p.m.

    So, why didn't Ford Motors need a bailout? They seem to have managed OK without it. The problem with bailouts is the extreme cost of them, plus government control. A managed bankruptcy would have accomplished the same thing without giving so much power to the union and to the government. GM had to retire many of its lines of automobiles, like Pontiac and Oldsmobile, and I forget what else. I'm sure Chrysler had to do something similar. Streamlining production and focusing on doing well with a few models could have been accomplished through bankruptcy, too.

    Sometimes Romney's blunt way of saying things creates misunderstanding, and the news media and people, latch onto the "sound bites" like a dog on a bone, without trying to see the bigger picture.

    Having Democrats vote in a Republican Primary is just wrong.

  • eastcoastcoug Danbury, CT
    Feb. 28, 2012 2:29 p.m.

    Romney was against the bailouts because he didn't want to encourage the status quo of pathetic management behaviors and union control. Only when we have to face a crisis do we change. If someone comes in and hands us money, we keep on doing what we were doing that got us in the mess in the first place.

    The media and liberals have done a great job perpetuating the misinformation.

    Having said that, Romney has mystified us in the middle who want a more moderate voice. He'll never be able to win a general election if he goes too far right. And social issues matter so little in the long run. What we need is someone to fix the economy and thin out/re-structure our fat bloated government. The same thing that has happened to all our our businesses who haven't bailed out by taxpayers.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 28, 2012 2:32 p.m.

    It appears Mitt Romney's policy of "Let them fail" to the Auto industry isn't going over so well in home state of Michigan. * LDS Liberal 2:03 p.m. Feb. 28, 2012

    Your right:

    ** Let Detroit Go Bankrupt' - By Mitt Romney - NY Times - 11/18/08

    Estimated result?

    ** How Many Jobs Depend on the Big Three?' - By CATHERINE RAMPELL - NY Times - 11/17/08

    In both cases, there would be major short-term shocks to employment; depending on which scenario you use, a contraction of the Detroit Three would result in direct and indirect job losses of 2.5 million to 3 million in 2009. * Article

    Romney inadvertantly supporting a policy that would have cost 3 MILLION American jobs...

    would not make a person, popular.

  • stgjazzfan Saint George, UT
    Feb. 28, 2012 2:33 p.m.

    No... this is a classic case of Hairy Reed campaining, Choose the canidate that you have the best chance to beat and make sure they are the one you will run against. Santorum was once a Democrat, and he now fills those shoes again very well.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 28, 2012 2:44 p.m.

    Bottom line, if you are against the bailout...

    ** Bush signs $700 billion bailout bill' - AP - Published by Denver Post - By Tom Raum - 10/03/08

    ** Bush signs $17.4 billion auto industry bailout package' - By Nelson Ireson - Motor Authority - 12/19/08

    ...then you would have to ask yourself, why you would support the Republican party.

    When, under George W. Bush, they signed the FIRST bailout?

  • ouisc Farmington, UT
    Feb. 28, 2012 3:28 p.m.

    The strange thing about this, as I understand it, is that Rick Santorum did not support bailing out U.S. auto manufacturers.

    So Santorum is encouraging Democrats to vote against Romney for an issue that they have agreement on. Absolutely dispicable.

  • Hawkeye79 Iowa City, IA
    Feb. 28, 2012 3:29 p.m.

    Hi Pagan,

    Would you mind explaining your inferential leap? You claim that bankruptcy would have cost Detroit up to 3 million jobs, but it didn't.

    What do I mean by that?

    Did you know that GM and Chrysler recently went through bankruptcy? But, by your logic, this means that the jobs must have disappeared. They didn't.

    Bankruptcy can allow a company to restructure without disappearing. In fact, this is what Romney was advocating when he made his recommendation to allow the auto companies to enter bankruptcy proceedings. Even with the bailout funds, this is precisely what happened.

    The only difference is that, because of the bailout funds, the UAW did not have to give up as much as it would have otherwise.

    Of course, you would already understand this if you read more than just headlines.

  • eastcoastcoug Danbury, CT
    Feb. 28, 2012 3:45 p.m.

    Pagan,

    I don't know where you studied business (the U??) but in the real world, these auto workers would have lost their jobs because their companies were mismanaged and the unions made them less competitive. Let's see if GM or Chrysler/Fiat pick up or continue to lose market share.

    I read the whole article by Romney and he wasn't cheering for the autoworkers to fail but for the companies to re-structure. I guess if you just read headlines, you miss the whole story.

  • The Skeptical Chymist SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Feb. 28, 2012 3:51 p.m.

    The Republican primary this year is the most amusing and enjoyable political contest I have witnessed in years. It is so informative about the nature of the Republican mindset!! Mitt just cannot connect with the average Joe, with comments about his wife's two Cadillacs, and how they need one for their home in California and one for their home in Massachusetts; his comment that he only made a small amount of money from his speeches ($374,000!); his comment that he doesn't know many NASCAR enthusiasts, but he knows some NASCAR owners; etc., etc. He really doesn't know how to make a connection with anyone who has an income below 7 or 8 figures.

    On the other hand, Santorum claims that college education (indoctrination mills!) is undesirable because it causes young people to reject their faith; he wants to bring back the days of mandatory prayer and Bible reading in school (whose prayer and whose Bible?); he wants to force gays and lesbians back into the closet; and he wants to go back and reverse Griswold vs. Connecticut, which established the right to privacy and the right to use contraceptives. These are really winning issues with about 25% of the population, and total losers with the remaining 75%.

    Please, let's keep the entertainment going! This is the most fun I've had in years, and it has the added benefit of driving the Republican brand totally into the ditch. The end result will be the re-election of President Obama - the most responsible president we've had in decades. Good work, Republicans!

  • CottageCheese SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Feb. 28, 2012 4:54 p.m.

    @ The Skeptical Chymist

    Thank you for this line:

    "...President Obama - the most responsible president we've had in decades."

    It is one of the most amusing political statements I have read in years!!!

  • A1994 Centerville, UT
    Feb. 28, 2012 5:14 p.m.

    @The Skeptical Chymist

    President Obama is the most responsible president in decades? Would you care to explain how adding another $5 Trillion to the National debt is being responsible? Pagan? LDS Liberal? Anyone?

  • Mark B Eureka, CA
    Feb. 28, 2012 5:47 p.m.

    Trying to impose your vote into someone else's primary isn't very admirable. O course, it is legal, and Rush Limbaugh ordered his followers to do exactly that 4 years ago in order to lengthen the Democratic race. He grandly called the strategy "Operation Chaos". What shall we call it now?

  • Duh west jordan, ut
    Feb. 28, 2012 6:38 p.m.

    Got to admit, it is actually funny that a State would allow across the party voting in a primary. I am a republican who does not support Santorum and this just goes to show how pathetic of a candidate he really is. I wouldn't be suprised if this doesn't actually hurt him in the long run. I mean, why do you think the DEMS are voting for Santorum? Yep, he would never beat Obama, I know I wouldn't vote for him. Funny how the Republicans Party keeps shooting themselves over and over again. Obama is loving it.

  • A1994 Centerville, UT
    Feb. 28, 2012 6:57 p.m.

    If Santorum wins by appealing to Michigan Democrats to vote for him, I'd say Mitt Romney, along with the GOP, can kiss the election goodbye. I can't understand Republican voters in Michigan being stupid enough to fall for Santorum's pitch. He has absolutely no chance of getting the nomination and even if he did, he wouldn't beat Obama. Romney has the best chance to do it. So what it comes down to is that we have Rick Santorum, the same guy who managed to lose his Senate reelection campaign by 20 points, showing the GOP how to take a 'principled' stand and push the self-destruct button with confidence. Brilliant.

  • Mick Murray, Utah
    Feb. 28, 2012 8:44 p.m.

    Santorum won the union vote. Very suspicious. I think union voters do what their told. Did they know that Santorum was also against the auto bailout. Come on union members, think for yourselves!

    But alas, it didn't stop Mitt.

    Go Mitt Go!

  • silo Sandy, UT
    Feb. 28, 2012 9:52 p.m.

    @Utah Girl

    Like many on these boards, you tout Ford Motor Co as a shining example of proper management in the auto industry, and like all the others, you are misled.

    While Ford wasn't part of the formal 'Bailout' they still received $7 billion in loans and requested a $9 billion line of credit from the government in 2008 and 2009. The CEO of Ford testified in favor of the bailout that GM received, stating that Ford would also suffer from the collapse of suppliers if the Bailout didn't occur.

    Regarding your last comment about voting in the opposite party's primary, I agree, but remember that the Conservative Messiah, Rush Limbaugh set the precedent a few years ago with his Operation Chaos. Also note that Utah primaries are open on the democrat side, and closed on the republican side, so republicans freely cross-party vote here.

  • don17 Temecula, CA
    Feb. 28, 2012 11:41 p.m.

    Silo:

    Actually Silo Ford did not request government bailout funds. Their funds were borrowed from their investors and banks. In addition the 9 billion dollar line of credit was set to be backed by private,non government investors, using all their assets to cover the loans if needed. Ford has paid off 60 percent or more now of all their outstanding debt privately held. And they have increased their market share. Ford stock has increased by over 11 times over in value as well.

    The Governments convoluted bankrutcy program, not a standard bankruptcy, cost nearly a 4 million retirees and investors over 100 billion dollars in losses when the Obama administration trashed the bankruptcy code. Now Chysler is not an American company but is Italian owned! Both GM and Chrysler are still in debt to us the American people. Don't forget the Administrations rules also put over 2000 dealerships out of business with no compensation. That cost just in that sector of the auto industry over 150,000 jobs and in many cases killed the largest tax payer in many communities. Just think if you had a profitable business and the Government made you go out of business? Sounds fair huh? Or you were one of the bond holders who got cheated out of your investment. How would you feel if the Government took your investments with no compensation.

    I am surprised at how many comment on this subject area with so little understanding including Pagan. Again and again the same lame headlines are written or recopied. I have in numerous previous posts shown the faulty math and propaganda pressed by Pagan! Continually telling the same false story will never make it true!

  • EnglishAlan Rugeley, Staffs
    Feb. 29, 2012 5:36 a.m.

    If I owned a business that was struggling, and I could no longer afford to run it, I would close it. I would owe that to potential creditors, to my bank, and to myself. Why should large companies expect to carry on doing what they have always done when they can no longer afford to.

    I have worked in nationalised industry, and all I saw was an attitude of waste, lethargy and dependency. Bailing out an ailing company may well save jobs in the short-term, but puts a responsibility on every other tax-payer to carry on paying for the ailing company. These bail-outs inevitably lead to more waste, lethargy and dependency, which leads to further bail-outs, which......

    Sometimes, it's best to bite the bullet, and provide good redundancy packages, with further training in new skills. I went from being a coal-miner to being an accountant because of such a package, added to hard work in my studying.

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 29, 2012 6:03 a.m.

    Re: LDS Liberal 2:03 p.m. Feb. 28, 2012
    "It appears Mitt Romney's policy of "Let them fail" to the Auto industry isn't going over so well in home state of Michigan."

    I don't know why you say that. The majority in that state voted their confidence in him.

  • t702 Las Vegas, NV
    Feb. 29, 2012 6:32 a.m.

    Mitt better make Rick pay for courting the democrats vote. It is one thing for Rush or any tv or talk radio host to make the case, totally different when the candidate actively involved. If Rick can't make the case for Republicans to vote for him, he has no business crossing over the way he did. Mitt needs to hammer this point from here on out

    Don17 is exactly right. The problem is Mitt needs to hammer those points home day in and day out.

  • raybies Layton, UT
    Feb. 29, 2012 6:42 a.m.

    Awesome! Keep fighting Romney!! The Democrats clearly think you're the one to beat. This might've been brutal, but it only gets worse from here.

    Oh and LDS Liberal, it's not called Karma, it's called Carma... (Get it? The Auto industry? Cars? Car-MA?)

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Feb. 29, 2012 6:57 a.m.

    There is nothing "moral" about these victories, they're simply "victories".

    There is nothing "moral" about politicians or politics; they're all a bunch of liars and panderers as seen by viewing ANY of their ads or watching their campaign speeches.

  • Claudio Springville, Ut
    Feb. 29, 2012 7:30 a.m.

    Re: Rifleman

    Small point, but 41% is not a majority, it is a plurality. And it wasn't a plurality of the state, it was a plurality of voters in the state. Let's call an apple an apple.

  • Claudio Springville, Ut
    Feb. 29, 2012 7:33 a.m.

    Re: t702

    You do realize that Mitt did the same thing in New Hampshire, right? He did actively seek Democrats to vote for him. As someone who wants to win the general election, it would seem to me that picking up some Democratic votes would be beneficial...I guess that doesn't agree with some Republicans who think those who have a different point of view are evil while they themselves are saints. Politics and history has shown time and time again that this absolutist thinking is not only dangerous, but it's flat out wrong.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Feb. 29, 2012 7:56 a.m.

    Some of the news organizations that subscribe to the National Election Pool exit poll in Michigan are beginning to share preliminary results on the characteristics of those who have voted so far. The New York Times reports via Twitter, for example, that "6 in 10" voters in the Michigan primary "say they're conservative; 3 in 10 say they're very conservative."

    The Washington Post tweeted that just under 60 percent of the voters in Michigan identified themselves to exit pollsters as Republican. That result is also a bit lower than the 68 percent Republican identification in the 2008.

    In 2008 exit polls, 7% identified themselves as Democrats. In 2000, 17% identified themselves as a Democrat and according to available data, 1 in 10 identified themselves as a Democrat last night.

    Apparently crossover voting in Michigan is standard practice.

    Re:stgjazzfan
    You were joking, right?
    Santorum has NEVER been a Democrat.

  • barbara Carlsbad, CA
    Feb. 29, 2012 8:14 a.m.

    Santorum will eat our collective shorts one day.

  • xscribe Colorado Springs, CO
    Feb. 29, 2012 8:23 a.m.

    Everyone aboard the Mitt Kool-Aid train!

  • Doug10 Roosevelt, UT
    Feb. 29, 2012 8:45 a.m.

    Money always wins in this country.

    Mitt keeps claiming he is going to save the country by lowering the corporate tax rate.

    89% of the people in this country go to work and do not own companies. When corporate tax rates decrease then owners begin to take more out of their companies. When tax rates are high owners tend to invest or put back more into theior companies and they hire more employees and build their business.

    Mitt is going to help 11% of the population put more money in their pocket, but it will be alot of money.

    In Arizona they call that a moral victory.

  • no fit in SG St.George, Utah
    Feb. 29, 2012 8:46 a.m.

    "Whew", said Mitt Romney

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Feb. 29, 2012 8:50 a.m.

    Our government was not created for bailouts, income taxing, running schools, or managing businesses.

    This country was built on people over coming failures and striving for success. Today we have a nation of whiners and beggars dependent on handouts. I guess that's why the example of a president taking our money for lavish vacations while blasting success, is so popular with some.

    Thank you Mitt for stating the morally correct answer for Detroit.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 29, 2012 9:13 a.m.

    Rifleman
    Salt Lake City, Utah
    Re: LDS Liberal 2:03 p.m. Feb. 28, 2012
    "It appears Mitt Romney's policy of "Let them fail" to the Auto industry isn't going over so well in home state of Michigan."

    I don't know why you say that. The majority in that state voted their confidence in him.

    6:03 a.m. Feb. 29, 2012

    ====================

    Romney "squeaked" by Santorum in the Republican race.
    FYI - Michigan is a hard core Blue collar, labor union state.

    Denouncing the Auto-bail out,
    AND
    Denouncing Labor Unions...

    Romney might have won the battle,
    but will most indubitably loose the WAR in the General Election.

    My prediction:
    Michigan, Obama - 17 Electoral votes.

    Utah, Romney - 5 votes.

    Whatever....

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Feb. 29, 2012 9:41 a.m.

    Sarah Palin may jump into the race? HA! Go ahead and jump in Palin - the splash you create in the water will be so small no one will even notice ... or care. Sarah Palin is a cheer leader and a get-out-to-vote motivator and she does a good job at both but she is not a serious candidate for anything. The GOP really needs to get its act together and get serious otherwise it's 4 more years of Obama - which is unthinkable.

  • ksampow Farr West, Utah
    Feb. 29, 2012 9:57 a.m.

    for decades and was governor in MASS. They jumped on the first returns that showed Santorum in the lead - with only 1% of precincts reporting - to go on and on about how surprisng that was. They dismissed Romney's win in Arizona, attributing it to the "Mormom advantage" since 6% of the population of Arizona is LDS. It's safe to say tht MORE than 6% are Catholic and more than 6% are evangelical in almost every state, and that type of argument was not used to dismiss Santorum's meaningless (non-binding) win in Missouri, which has a large Evangelical population.
    The liberal media wants to weaken Obama's most likely and most threatening challenger. Unfortunately many fellow Republicans are playing right along, tearing each other down. The GOP needs to come together and stop shooting each other down.

  • Alpine Blue Alpine, UT
    Feb. 29, 2012 10:10 a.m.

    Heaven help this country. There is only one real "leader" on either ticket. And the Democrats hate him (just listen to MSNBC or CNN or NBC) because he has the best chance of beating Obama in the Fall. And the Republicans hate him (just listen to Fox News, Hannity, Limbaugh et al) because he is a Mormon-and therefore not a "Christian" and not trustworthy or moral enough (imagine the irony!). Nothing but disengenuity on either side. Really a pretty sad state of affairs for this nation-no more "win-win" or lets do what is best for this country and its citizens. Nothing but a sheer lust for power. Really sad. Is this really what democracy is all about? For one, I can not wait until this whole process is over in November.

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 29, 2012 10:12 a.m.

    Re: LDS Liberal 9:13 a.m. Feb. 29, 2012

    Santorum's robo calls to Democratic union workers to vote against Romney helped him limit his defeat in Michigan but will cost him any hope he had of getting the Republican nomination.

    In the 2012 presidential race Obama will be his own worst enemy. It is Romney and not Santorum that Obama is worried about running against.

  • El Chango Supremo Rexburg, ID
    Feb. 29, 2012 10:22 a.m.

    How is AZ a "moral" victory? AZ is a winner take all delegates state.

  • Semper Fi Bakersfield, CA
    Feb. 29, 2012 10:33 a.m.

    Kudos to the Gov. I was never a Mitt fan, but I'm coming around. All the negatives I saw in him are paling as time goes on and our vetting process reveals men's true hearts. The days of TV debates and stump speeches will wane. Look at the EU today, rioting and defiant because their austerity medicine isn't fun.

    I may have to rethink my attitude and jokes about the Cardboard Weather Vane, serial Flip Flopper, etc. The closer we get to crunch time, the more unified we become against our common foe. I hope his speeches begin to reflect more serious content, 'cuz our country is in serious times and headed for worse. Yikes! The thought of a Mitt sign on my lawn looms heavy...

    I never thought this Baptist would be praying hard that a Mormon candidate would be praying hard to know God's will...

  • LValfre CHICAGO, IL
    Feb. 29, 2012 10:53 a.m.

    A moral victory would be Romney taking back his oath against gay marriage before even getting in the office. That would be moral to all ... allowing freedom of choice.

    This is just a political victory.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    Feb. 29, 2012 11:36 a.m.

    It seeme like all somebody needs to do nowadays is call themselves Republican or Democrat to garner support these days.

    As Governor, Romney held all of the positions he is now supposedly against like Gun Control and Abortion. Issues that the establishment GOP is supposedly against. But Republicans are not really against Gun Control or Gay Marriage as long as it's a Republican that's in favor of all of this. Just like Democrats are supposedly against War and the Patriot Act if a Republican does these things but they don't say a word if a Democrat is in favor of these things. Both parties are for all of this as long as it's their guy that's doing it.

    What utter stupidity and hypocrisy.

    Romney says he will repeal the Healthcare bill that he WROTE. I say baloney. His ego will not allow him to repeal a bill he wrote. What makes you thing he will repeal it? Once he's elected, he doesn't have to fufill any of his campaign promises. What makes people think he won't sign Abortion and Gun Control laws? He sure didn't sign any laws when he was Governor of Massachusets.

    People need to show some integrity and wisdom by looking at Romneys actions in the past before foolishly casting their vote for someone that will do the complete opposite of what he has promised in his campaign.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    Feb. 29, 2012 11:38 a.m.

    Pagan

    "Bottom line, if you are against the bailout...

    ** Bush signs $700 billion bailout bill' - AP - Published by Denver Post - By Tom Raum - 10/03/08

    ** Bush signs $17.4 billion auto industry bailout package' - By Nelson Ireson - Motor Authority - 12/19/08"

    I against both Bush and the bailout. So what are you gonna say about that?

  • Capella Bakersfield, CA
    Feb. 29, 2012 12:34 p.m.

    I say you're all barking up the political tree as if politics are our salvation. They never have been and never will be.

    Biblical believers know that God controls His universe and He alone decides who leads in governments. (Romans, Colossians, Hebrews). I will always do my best to make the right decision when I vote, but if it goes 'the other way', I'll know we're in the "wood shed". The entitlement mentality killed western Europe; it's infected our nation now.

    America's churches should be praying overtime, because our impact has been vapid at best. I would vote for an ethical (American) Muslim. Just give us an honest leader, who cares about humanity, and who will protect our country. I'm sick of the politicians, too.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Feb. 29, 2012 12:42 p.m.

    @Semper Fi;

    What has "god's will" got to do with anything? Any candidate claiming to be "god's" candidate automatically loses my vote.

  • Semper Fi Bakersfield, CA
    Feb. 29, 2012 1:17 p.m.

    RanchHand, I was speaking as a person of faith, not as a secular citizen. I thought you'd get that with my 'Baptist' reference.
    People of faith can still comment here, can't they? This isn't the American Atheists newspaper, is it?

    Kudos to you for sharing that God's will isn't important to you. I wish I knew what is was more often.

    I do understand your comment on the political front and I agree with you re: a self-proclaimed "God candidate". I was refering to His will in a purely Biblical sense of doing what is honest and ethical, rather than expedient or greedy.

    What an awesome thing it is to not have to be under a dictatorship. But democracy brings responsibility, and that was my focus. Friends?

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 29, 2012 1:19 p.m.

    Re: RanchHand 12:42 p.m. Feb. 29, 2012
    "Any candidate claiming to be "god's" candidate automatically loses my vote."

    Yes, it is sad but true that many people wouldn't vote for the Divine Creator if He walked among us incognito and campaigned for US President. Many would find His views on morality, abortion, and the need to take personal responsibility for our decisions so terribly old fashioned.

  • Capella Bakersfield, CA
    Feb. 29, 2012 5:24 p.m.

    RanchHand, if you believed in God, would you want to know what His will is for His creation?

    By definition, "God" knows more than mere mortals. So for believers to answer your question, God's will IS everything in life. Politics, finances, culture, recreation are just parts of the cosmic whole. The universe is order and information, chaos and climax in parts of it, but something or Someone set the DNA code in motion. You might wanna search further someday before you ask 'what god's will has to do with anything?'

    Just sayin'...