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Pennsylvania pastor defrocked after performing gay wedding

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  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 11:10 a.m.

    I applaud this church and people like the Duck Dynasty guy for not being afraid of intolerant liberals, and standing up for what is right.

    Keep up the good work!

  • Mainly Me Werribee, 00
    Dec. 19, 2013 11:25 a.m.

    It's nice to see someone stand up against "progressives." The Bible isn't just a "guide." People and ministers don't get to just pick and choose which of God's laws they want to live by.

  • The Skeptical Chymist SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 12:05 p.m.

    The church has the right to defrock this minister for failing to follow their teachings. However, I'm sure he'll be able to find another church who will be happy to have him ministering to them.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Dec. 19, 2013 12:54 p.m.

    The action taken by the Church is a blessing for the cause the minister is putting ahead of his own ministry. One look at the attention being paid by non-Methodists is evidence enough that is an issue much larger than mere Methodist theology.

  • Mr. Smitty Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 1:38 p.m.

    Someone here wrote, "I applaud this church and people like the Duck Dynasty guy for not being afraid of intolerant liberals, and standing up for what is right."

    Ok, so let me get this straight. If someone, say a liberal, rejects someone who expresses hatred based on ignorance, they are called intolerant. Furthermore, such ignorant haters are apparently standing up for what is right.

    A religion that preaches harmful nonsense is not teaching anything worth while.

  • Back Talk Federal Way, WA
    Dec. 19, 2013 2:06 p.m.

    There will always be someone willing to pay you to tell them what they want to hear.

    What must be prtected is that the goverment cant punish people or churches for expressing and inforcing these beliefs.

  • bandersen Saint George, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 2:29 p.m.

    2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears". Ministers who have "itching ears" are those who, instead of listening to God and teaching God's word, listen to "followers" that want a teacher that teaches that gay marriage is ordained of God.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 3:00 p.m.

    Good to see one church at least stand for something instead of bowing to PC.

  • Contrariusiests mid-state, TN
    Dec. 19, 2013 3:01 p.m.

    @Mainly Me --

    "People and ministers don't get to just pick and choose...."

    You pick and choose all the time.

    Have you stoned any adulterers lately?

    And speaking of divorce, do you believe Paul or Jesus? Jesus said that divorce was acceptable in cases of infidelity -- but Paul said that nobody should ever get divorced, no matter what. Which one do you pick?

    Paul also said that it is better to remain single than to marry. Do you believe him?

    There are many many examples of picking and choosing throughout the Bible.

    Reverend Schaefer stood up for what he believes is right, and so did the Methodist Church authorities. But the issue is much larger than either one of them. As the article mentions, many Methodist ministers agree with Schaefer -- including at least one retired Methodist Bishop -- and there is a lot of support amongst the congregation as well. The public nature of Schaefer's trial and defrocking will help to keep the issue alive and urgent in all those minds.

    And as Chymist already noted, most likely another denomination will be happy to take Schaefer in. Remember, several Christian denominations are already happy to perform gay wedding ceremonies.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 3:04 p.m.

    A majority of Americans now support Gay Marriage? HA!! Where was that poll taken ... San Francisco?

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 4:14 p.m.

    @ Mr Smitty:

    Ok... you did not get that straight (pun intended).

    One reason a lot of people are dismissive of intolerant liberals is because they like to catagorize everyone who happens to disagree with themselves as "ignorant haters"... exactly as you did.
    You're a perfect example of the kind of intolerance you mention.
    And just because a church stands up for biblical morals does NOT mean it teaches "harmful nonsense". However, your soapboxing comes close.

  • BYR West Bountiful, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 4:19 p.m.

    Mr. Smitty, I didn't know disagreeing was hateful.

  • TheJournalist Bluffdale, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 4:21 p.m.

    Wow people... this was his own Son that He was supporting that was getting married. Shame on the Methodist church, and shame on all you that are celebrating this action by this church.

  • Phranc SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 4:44 p.m.

    So when the pastor gets sanctioned by his boss its all good but when Phil from DD gets the placed on leave its all bad and his rights are being violated? Just a thought but maybe both are wrong.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 4:47 p.m.

    Tators,

    Nice to see you on this thread, I haven't seen your posts at all this week. Have you been reading mine?

    But for this story, I completely agree with you.

    Liberals are tolerant of everyone who believes like they do

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 4:49 p.m.

    It is a typical tactic of those supporting so-called gay "marriage" to characterize anyone who opposed gay so-called "marriage" as "haters." This is a bullying tactic and no one should let it intimidate them.

    No hatred of any kind has been expressed by the Methodist Church. They are only following Christian teachings and the doctrine that opposes immoral behavior. No amount of political correctness, bullying or legal maneuvering will change the facts or God's laws.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 4:55 p.m.

    @patriot
    "A majority of Americans now support Gay Marriage? HA!! Where was that poll taken ... San Francisco?"

    Nationally. Many polls have shown a majority (54% for ABCNews in May, 55% in a CNN poll in June, 54% for Gallup in July, 56% for Quinnipiac in September). It's fueled primarily by massive support amongst the under 30 crowd. Plus Utah is the state that has the least support for it and LDS members are the religion with the least support for it (yes, even slightly less than evangelicals). So maybe it's just your sample size of people you interact with that isn't representative of the nation.

    Of course, young people are also notoriously bad at turning out to the polls part of why, though it did pass in states like Maryland to uphold it, the margin wasn't very large. And then it's been a year since then where it's only gotten more popular (about 5 points higher than this time last year) as another half a dozen states have added it. States with it have no interest in giving it up, even when "imposed by the court".

  • Contrariusiests mid-state, TN
    Dec. 19, 2013 5:18 p.m.

    @patriot --

    "A majority of Americans now support Gay Marriage? HA!! Where was that poll taken ... San Francisco?"

    9/13 -- Quinnipiac University -- 56% of American adults and 57% of registered voters for, 36% of both groups opposed.

    7/13 -- Gallup -- 54% for

    7/13 -- USA Today -- 55% of Americans for, 40% against

    5/13 -- Washington Post-ABC News -- 55% of Americans for, 40% against

    3/13 -- CBS News -- 53% of Americans for, 39% opposed, 8% were undecided

    3/13 -- Washington Post-ABC News -- 58% of Americans for, 36% against
    -- This same poll indicated that even 52% of GOP-leaning independents under 50 years old supported gay marriage.

    Is that enough for ya? If you want more, there's a bunch of polls from 2012 and earlier that show the same thing.

  • Phranc SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Dec. 19, 2013 5:43 p.m.

    sorry cats no matter how you attempt spin it you and the Methodist church are on the side of oppression and therefore the aggressor not the victims.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Dec. 19, 2013 6:28 p.m.

    * Seldom are the majority correct.
    * People going with the majority are non-thinkers.

    Despite this, the majority are not for gay marriage, because the media is bias, and untruthful.

  • Bob K porland, OR
    Dec. 20, 2013 1:22 a.m.

    Phranc
    SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    "So when the pastor gets sanctioned by his boss its all good but when Phil from DD gets the placed on leave its all bad and his rights are being violated? Just a thought but maybe both are wrong."

    Thanks, but note that
    1--the pastor was NEVER sanctioned until 6 years later, when the son of a church member who had disagreed with the pastor over another issue turned him in.
    2--DN and many news sources did not print the full text of what the Duck guy said, which was vile, disgusting, and so vulgar that your ears might stand up. (Not to mention that he says Blacks were happier before Civil Rights)

    So you could say that one was wrong according to the Rules, but morally in the right, and the other was partly right, according to some Christians, but way, way out of bounds in how he said it.

    People are BORN Gay, and born to love the same sex, but the "Christians" pick only on the sex life of Gay people, while doing nothing about divorce, adultery, etc.

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    Dec. 20, 2013 6:06 a.m.

    There is no democracy in truth. Polls do not change God's words or God's law.

  • Jamescmeyer Midwest City, USA, OK
    Dec. 20, 2013 7:06 a.m.

    If you voluntarily take up the responsibility to officiate in God's ordinances according to your understanding, and the doctrine of your church states clearly, as contained in the bible, that it is sin to lie with those of your own sex and that a man and woman should cleave together, but you independantly decide to ignore it and still expect to officiate in that position... What more can be said?

    Marriage is about a man and woman completing one another and bringing together their families, not satisfying your own self on the basis of sexual orientation. Not understanding what marriage is is a widespread problem today and easily observed in the developed world's divorce statistics. It is only in this environment that such attempts to "change" marriage have been born.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Dec. 20, 2013 7:11 a.m.

    @Cats;

    It isn't "so-called" gay marriage, it IS marriage. Which "god's laws"? Thor's? Ra's? Zeus'? We aren't a theocracy yet.

    So much for all you "family values" pretenders; cheering the defrocking of a man for supporting his family.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Dec. 20, 2013 7:54 a.m.

    @worf --

    "* Seldom are the majority correct.
    * People going with the majority are non-thinkers.

    Despite this, the majority are not for gay marriage, because the media is bias, and untruthful."

    Ummm. Worf.

    You say that "the majority are not for gay marriage". Which means, according to your own statements, that the supposed majority who oppose gay marriage are both incorrect and non-thinkers.

    Do you really want to say that?

    ;-)

    @Cats --

    "There is no democracy in truth. Polls do not change God's words or God's law."

    And this still isn't a theocracy.

    Also keep remembering that many Christian denominations are already happy to perform same-sex weddings. This isn't an issue of Christianity against "the gays". It's actually just an issue of a few conservative hold-outs against the oncoming reality of equal rights.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Dec. 20, 2013 8:33 a.m.

    RE: Contrariusiests, .Harvey Levin, who is himself gay, said A&E knew of Robertson's beliefs when they hired him because Robertson's opinions about gays have been on tape. He noted that the network, aware of Robertson's views, also signed off on the GQ interview.

    The official United Methodist doctrine is that the Bible was inspired by God and contains all things necessary for salvation. When read under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Bible is our true rule and guide for faith and practice.

    (The Living Bible) …,” so that even their women turned against God’s natural plan for them and indulged in sex sin with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sex relationships with women, burned with lust for each other, men doing shameful things with other men and, as a result, getting paid within their own souls with the penalty they so richly deserved”

  • annarbormom1 ann arbor, MI
    Dec. 20, 2013 9:22 a.m.

    What does Zeus say on the subject of gay marriage? Not interested? Me neither. I'm equally uninterested in what the Bible or Koran adds to the subject.

    Love and let love!

    Religion just spoils everything. Hopefully the defrocking leads this father down a path toward reason and kindness from within instead of perceived judgments or rewards from without.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Dec. 20, 2013 10:03 a.m.

    There's an interesting article about this case in the NYT today. Here's some facts from the article:

    -- Rather than intimidating ministers, the trial has galvanized a new wave of ecclesiastical disobedience.

    -- November, Philadelphia -- 36 Methodist ministers recited the Declaration of Marriage on the steps of a Methodist church for two gay men.

    -- New York -- Methodist ministers are openly blogging about the same-sex ceremonies they're performing.

    -- October, Alabama -- retired Bishop Melvin Talbert openly conducted a church ceremony for two gay men.

    -- several more ministers are already facing trial for performing same-sex ceremonies.

    -- even Bishop Peggy Johnson, Schaefer's superior in the church, has publicly stated this week that the UMC's bans on gay ordination and gay marriages were discriminatory and have "led to confusion by many from the outside of the church wondering how we can talk out of two sides of our mouth."

    -- Schaefer has said that he will not leave the UMC. He says "It's not that easy when a church is your spiritual home," he said. "All my children have been baptized in the United Methodist Church. I don't know how to be a minister out of the United Methodist Church."

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Dec. 20, 2013 10:07 a.m.

    @Contrariusiests ,The official United Methodist doctrine is that the Bible was inspired by God and contains all things necessary for salvation. When read under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Bible is our true rule and guide for faith and practice.

    .( The Living Bible) …,” so that even their women turned against God’s natural plan for them and indulged in sex sin with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sex relationships with women, burned with lust for each other, men doing shameful things with other men and, as a result, getting paid within their own souls with the penalty they so richly deserved”

  • Bob A. Bohey Marlborough, MA
    Dec. 20, 2013 10:08 a.m.

    @Cats: Who's "god" are you referring to? Your "god"? There are many religions with many versions of "god". What are your thoughts on those that do not view "god" the way you do?

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Dec. 20, 2013 10:32 a.m.

    @sharrona --

    "The official United Methodist doctrine is that the Bible was inspired by God and contains all things necessary for salvation."

    So?

    "The Living Bible"

    Paul again.

    I'll ask yet again -- for some reason, you never answer these questions, but I'll keep trying --

    Paul also supported slavery. Paul also taught that women were inferior to men. Paul also taught that it was better to remain single than to marry. Paul also taught -- in direct contradiction to Jesus -- that people should never get divorced for any reason.

    Do you agree with EVERYTHING Paul taught?

  • Tom Johnson Spanish Fork, UT
    Dec. 20, 2013 10:41 a.m.

    When Frank Schaefer decided that he no longer agreed with the doctrines of his church, he should have resigned.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Dec. 20, 2013 10:47 a.m.

    @Cats;

    It isn't "so-called" gay marriage, it IS marriage. Which "god's laws"? Thor's? Ra's? Zeus'? We aren't a theocracy yet.

    So much for the "family values" crowd; cheering the defrocking of a man for supporting his family.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Dec. 20, 2013 2:05 p.m.

    Contrariusiests ,... The official United Methodist doctrine is this: because of rebellion against God going all the way back to Adam, all persons are inclined toward sin and selfishness. Sin means missing the mark of God's righteousness; it means to be in rebellion against God, to disobey his laws.

    (Mt 7:19-20)(Jesus) Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 20, 2013 11:57 p.m.

    All this talk of religion under persecution…

    and religion persecutes those, who do in good conscience.

    This is why people are turning away, from religion.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Dec. 21, 2013 8:33 a.m.

    @sharrona --

    "The official United Methodist doctrine is this: because of rebellion against God going all the way back to Adam, all persons are inclined toward sin and selfishness."

    So?

    I'll repeat my question: Do you agree with EVERYTHING Paul taught?

    Do you agree with EVERYTHING Paul taught?

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Dec. 21, 2013 9:57 a.m.

    @sharrona --

    "The official United Methodist doctrine is this: because of rebellion against God going all the way back to Adam, all persons are inclined toward sin and selfishness."

    So?

    I'll repeat my question: Do you agree with EVERYTHING Paul taught?

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Dec. 21, 2013 11:15 a.m.

    RE: Contrariuser, Do you agree with EVERYTHING Paul taught?

    Some critics of Christianity try and set Paul against Jesus. . This is an erroneous claim that does not fit the facts,they take “various scriptures out of Context” (Eisegesis) and try and set one person against another -- as many critics of Christianity have done. t Jesus and Paul taught the same thing. Paul focused more on theological issues than Jesus did, but nothing Paul said is contrary to Christ.

    In Acts 9 Luke is Paul's conversion. We see that Jesus himself called Paul. If Paul and Jesus are not in agreement, then why would Jesus call Paul to be his apostle? Jesus is God in flesh and would therefore know all things. Jesus would certainly have known what Paul would teach. E.g.. .
    Mother Teresa loved those who had same-sex attractions, but she still called them to purity. In fact, it is precisely because she loved them that she called them to practice chastity. It is a false form of compassion to lead others to think that they can find fulfillment by living outside the will of God.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Dec. 21, 2013 12:39 p.m.

    @sharrona --

    You still didn't answer my question, Sharrona.

    Do you agree with everything Paul taught?

    Paul taught that nobody should ever get divorced.

    Jesus taught that divorce was okay in cases of infidelity.

    That's a clear contradiction.

    Paul supported slavery.

    Paul taught that women were inferior to men.

    Paul taught that it was better to remain single than to marry.

    Do you agree with everything Paul taught?

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    Dec. 21, 2013 2:55 p.m.

    So being in compliance, or keeping your standards. Mind boggling, that nothing is what it seems.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    Dec. 21, 2013 6:33 p.m.

    Polls can be misleading things. People have not considered the negative impact for the proper form of marriage on redefinition.

    Beyond that, just because people may think the government should not ban same-sex marriage does not mean they feel that their religion should allow it.

    If this guy wants a church that allows same-sex marriage, he can find many that do or form his own. His going against the decisions of his church are disruptive and bad form.

  • Baccus0902 Leesburg, VA
    Dec. 21, 2013 7:21 p.m.

    everend Schaefer is trying to protect the Methodist Church from itself.

    "I cannot voluntarily surrender my credentials because I am a voice now for many for tens of thousands; of LGBT members in our church," he said then."

    Sharrona: I know you mean well. However, you cannot oppress the children of God with the Gospel. Paul could and he did. However, Jesus came to free us from the empty rhetoric of the religious establishment.

    When you states that: " Paul focused more on theological issues than Jesus did, but nothing Paul said is contrary to Christ.". No? Jesus as a spiritual master raised the status of women. Paul put them back in a secondary status.

    Jesus fulfilled the law . Yet, Paul (as a human being) with his ideas of women, slavery was simply establishing not Jesus Theology but his personal ideas which were based in what he knew.

    The only Apostle that never knew Jesus in the flesh preached "more theology" than the other eleven who lived with Jesus for three years. Curious!

    Probably the same ability to speak that got him letters from the Sanhedrin to persecute Christians was the ability that made us believe he knew more theology. Possible?

  • Nan BW ELder, CO
    Dec. 21, 2013 7:48 p.m.

    Does it matter what the majority support if it is not in accordance with morality?