"making a wedding cake for gay couples would violate his Christian religious
beliefs..."Allowing businesses to discriminate based on the
religious beliefs of their owners would lead to horrible consequences across our
entire society.-- Your religion tells you that blacks are inferior
to whites? No groceries for them at your store.-- Your religion
tells you that white Christian men are the Evil Overlords? No supper for them at
your restaurant.-- Your religion tells you that Mormons are
cultists? No rooms for them at your hotel.-- Your religion tells you
that it's sinful to give birth out of wedlock? No vitamins for them at your
pharmacy.-- Your religion tells you that women should stay in the
home and raise babies? You don't have to hire any to work for your
business.-- Your religion tells you that blood transfusions are
evil? The hospital you run doesn't have to offer them to any of its
patients.-- Your religion tells you that taxes are the work of the
Devil? No income tax payments for you!Talk about slippery slopes and
unintended consequences! Allowing religious discrimination would only lead to
widespread hatred and fragmentation of society.
of course we know that when we have legally justified the attitude of "we
don't serve you people here," it has never ended poorly in our past
Please note:The issue is public accommodation laws in Colorado and
elsewhere. If you live somewhere else, please understand that.--- once you
start to grand exceptions for religious belief, etc, you open up the whole
kettle of fish. Not to be rude, but in many States, if voters HAD to chose
between businesses excluding Gays or members of certain religions, they would
accept the gays' business only.Many of us think it is
ridiculous to not just make the cake -- do you think there was going to be a
newspaper article saying who made it? Well, of course, this type of
so-called Christian is really saying: "I do not want to be seen treating
these people the same as me" Meanwhile, if they made no cakes for the
divorced or for fornicators, they would be closed.If such bakers,
florists, etc put into their ads "We are members of the ABC Church and serve
a Christian clientele", most Gay folks would not go there, but businesses
open to the public must serve everyone in locales where the law says so.
No shirt no shoes no service...why can't free enterprise allow us to choose
who we service. This is heading in a strange direction. Buy your cake
This business owner is no different than the lunch counters that refused to
serve black people in past generations. Bigotry in the name of religion is
Con...you hit the nail on the head. My gosh can you imagine what would happen
if our government did this? discriminated on the basis of whatever?First you'd have schools forced to admit people by race and not by grades
or test scores and to adversely not admit people like say oh Asians because
their grades and test scores were too good.Then there would be
hiring quotas based on race and not on qualifications. Can you imagine the
outcome to allow a brain surgeon working on mom based only on how well he was
qualified?Then we would grant hiring status to veterans even if they
spent only 4 years behind a desk.Next government employees would get
a preference over jobs merely because they were already employees nevermind they
inhale at their job.Then teachers would get tenure and our students
would be stuck with them no matter how bad they were as teachers. Yes indeedy can you just imagine what would happen...private businesses who
put in long hours, over many years, investing their own money just might get the
same rights as the government, our taxes pay for, gets on every level.
Besides...why do we even need this. We were assured that no church or business
would ever be forced to act against their beliefs. On their special day what
couple would ever want to bring a feeling of contentiousness. Make a political
statement? I thought weddings/civil unions were about love of two people for one
another, NOT political statements. The Constitution guarantees us our religious
freedom, it does not guarantee us the right to buy a cake anywhere we want.
@sukiyhtaky --Those are amusing examples, Suki, but they are neither
accurate nor related to religion or private businesses."We were
assured that no church or business would ever be forced to act against their
beliefs."Nope. You were assured that no **church** would be.Businesses must always obey the laws of the jurisdictions they operate
under, regardless of the religious beliefs of their owners. That has been true
since the founding of this country. Remember, businesses are not churches."On their special day what couple would ever want to bring a feeling
of contentiousness."Sadly, the business in question chose to
bring contention into that day. I agree, it was very regrettable that the
business owners chose to bring their personal politics into it.
scoundrel, spring street, and contrarywhateverthistime, along with the ACLU
won't stop until doctors and nurses are forced to participate in abortions
even if they are against their religious beliefs. It doesn't
matter that the US constitution contains religious protections in its very first
amendment, religious freedom isn't PC, so it should no longer exist in
their "open" and "tolerant" minds. For them, tolerance only
goes one way.
@hedgehogno shirt no show no service, is a government regulation due to
public health concerns not the random prejudices of business owners but nice red
herring. @lost in DC abortion,? talk about of topic, thanks
for the laugh though.
sorry that's off not of
spring street,I see no denial in your desire to force all health care
providers to participate in abortion "services".Laugh all
you want, but I'm sorry you cannot see the connection, as both deal with
constitutionally guaranteed religious freedom. contraiwhatever,nope, the business owner did not choose to bring contention, he chose to
follow his conscience. the "couple" chose to be contentious by dragging
it into court. You're telling me there are no other wedding cake companies
in all of the Denver metro area, nowhere else they could get a cake?
@lost --"You're telling me there are no other wedding cake
companies in all of the Denver metro area, nowhere else they could get a
cake?"When the black college kids sat down at a Walgreens lunch
counter in Nashville in 1960, there were plenty of other places in town they
could have gone to eat instead. But, of course, that wasn't the
point.Do you think those college kids should have quietly accepted
the discrimination against them and gone elsewhere? Or do you think they were
correct to stand up for their rights as US citizens?
@lost in dcits not connection I am concerned about it is about the fact
that you did not address the topic of the article and instead bring in off topic
references to try to place people on the defensive. If you want to have a
discussion then lets have a discussion about the subject at hand (the bakery.
@ spring street:Contriusester made a big list of "what
if's" which were "off-topic references to place people on the
defensive" similar to what Lost in DC did and yet you didn't call him
out on it. It appears the standard for comments you are trying to create apply
only to people who don't agree with your ideology. Speaking of
Contriusester's list, none of those scenarios are currently applicable. He
is creating a bunch of what-ifs in an ill-conceived attempt to condone his
personal ideology. He should stick to the specific topic at hand.Everyone knows that gay marriage is currently very controversial... hence
these kinds of court cases. Since people have the right to agree or disagree
regarding topic, why should the government force individuals to condone
people's actions that they are religiously-based opposed to? All of those
other what-if scenarios are not this issue.When gay groups were
initially trying to get their foot in the door of public acceptance, they
specifically said no one would ever be forced to do anything regarding gay
marriage if it was against their conscience. And yet, here we are anyway..
we live in a free country. if the bakery did not want to bake the cake then they
have the right. does anyone notice the sign when going into resturants ?
'no shirt, no shoes, no service' ????? as a seamstress i have the
right to say 'yes i will or no i cannot'. the bakery has every right
to say no to anyone they please to say no to. any photographer has the right to
say 'no i cannot'. yes freedom of religion also. i have the right to
say Merry Christmas, some choose to say happy holidays. see we have the right !
Oh, I love this topic. We had this same issue in Washington state.
Melissa's Sweet Cakes ended up closing their store because they lost so
much business. Is the world not big enough to accomodate people regardless of
their race or who they choose to love? This store in Colorado has a business
license in order to be open. And when you have a business license, there are
rules and laws in that business license that protects John Q. public against the
business owner's bigotry and hate. If a business owner is going to bring
their religion into their business, they should have their license revoked and
shut down. Like it or not, the country in evolving. Pretty soon there will be
room for every human being at the Inn. I rejoice in that FACT.
djkThat is ridiculous! We are not free to discriminate just like we
are not free to kill others.Living is a free society does not mean
it is a free-for-all, do whatever you want! We still have laws we must abide by.
Discrimination is against the law!
@djkPlease read the comments before repeating false analogies. Spring
street addressed the same falued logic at 9:03 this morning.
I'd lay odds that this business owner violates his/her "religious
conscience" pretty much every day. I'll bet they watch shows on TV
that show promiscuity (Big Bang Theory) nearly every episode. I'll bet
they shop/drive/eat out on the Sabbath. I'll bet they take the Lord's
name in vain. I'll bet they provide cakes/flowers/what-have-you for the
weddings of adulterers, murderers, fornicators, etc. Each of those things would
also be a "violation of their religious conscience". If they do all (or
any of) these things, then claim "religious conscience" as a reason to
discriminate against LGBT couples, then they're hypocrites and just see
what the Bible has to say about hypocrites; far more than it has to say about
@hedgelog;"No shirt, no shoes..." serves a legitimate health
concern in businesses. "No gays" serves no legitimate purpose."Buy your cake elsewhere!" -- Why should we? The business in in
business to make wedding cakes. They need to be required to service all
customers.sukiyhtaky says:"We were assured that no church
or business would ever be forced to act against their beliefs." -- No you weren't. No church, yes. Businesses are not churches. Sorry,
they don't get to discriminate against customers; that's what the
entire civil rights movement was about.Tators says:"When gay groups were initially trying to get their foot in the door of
public acceptance, they specifically said no one would ever be forced to do
anything regarding gay marriage if it was against their conscience."--- No they weren't; isn't lying a violation of one of the 10?
You are not a church. You were never promised you'd be allowed to
discriminate willy-nilly basing your discriminatory behavior on your
Seems the baker missed a great opportunity to let the new couple know that
marriage is costly; "When do you need the cake?" he could have asked.
"In two weeks," the reply would come. "Oh, that will cost an extra
$100 to get it done by that date, and I'll need 100% deposit.No
confontation...no statement...just business.Then, on the wedding
cake a nice little touch would be the wedding statues of a groom and bride--just
like normal couples have. This would have been a statement by itself.
Trying to draw connections between sexual behavior choice and skin color is a
false argument.Religious freedom is a constitutional right.
PERIOD.And freedom of conscience should be the most protected civil
right we have.Under the dictatorship of the extreme left they would
have every one act the same, think the same, talk the same, be the same, all
business are the same, all schools are the same, everything and everyone is the
same. What a horrible, freedomless, colorless world that is.I would
rather know who someone is, than have government forced sameness.
Do I have to be friends with everyone too? What about a photographer that is
forced to take pictures of porn? Is that ok or is he discriminating if he
chooses not to? Go get a cake somewhere else. Public places do not
discriminate. Private citizens do all the time when you choose what to eat, who
to be friends with and who to work for and who to do service for or whatever. A
private business should be allowed the same option. It is private. Don't
tell me what I have to do. If I hurt someone else, that is against the law (I am
infringing on their right to be left alone). Don't interfere with me not
wanting to associate with certain people and especially don't force me to
work for them.
"Discrimination" is done everyday by everyone. You do it when you decide
to be friends with some and not with others. Who you will be intimate with. Who
you will talk to, who you will serve. A private business isn't private? So
I may not choose to associate with some people, but you are going to force me to
work for them? A photographer doesn't want to film porn, but has to so he
isn't discriminating? Whose conscience do I have to use when living, mine
or yours? If I am not interfering with your liberty, don't interfere with
to: sukiyhtaky "Then there would be hiring quotas based on race and not on
qualifications" That is and has been happening for many years. You go into
many businesses now and you will see very few white (european) people working
for them. This is because a law was passed back in the 1970s because there were
a few people who were discriminated against because they lacked english language
Those discriminating cake bakers must be regulated, and punished.So
much for freedom.
Same-sex marriage is a mockery of God's plan in sending His spirit children
to earth. God will not be mocked.