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Colorado court hears discrimination case over refusal to make wedding cake for gay couple

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  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Dec. 4, 2013 9:17 p.m.

    "making a wedding cake for gay couples would violate his Christian religious beliefs..."

    Allowing businesses to discriminate based on the religious beliefs of their owners would lead to horrible consequences across our entire society.

    -- Your religion tells you that blacks are inferior to whites? No groceries for them at your store.

    -- Your religion tells you that white Christian men are the Evil Overlords? No supper for them at your restaurant.

    -- Your religion tells you that Mormons are cultists? No rooms for them at your hotel.

    -- Your religion tells you that it's sinful to give birth out of wedlock? No vitamins for them at your pharmacy.

    -- Your religion tells you that women should stay in the home and raise babies? You don't have to hire any to work for your business.

    -- Your religion tells you that blood transfusions are evil? The hospital you run doesn't have to offer them to any of its patients.

    -- Your religion tells you that taxes are the work of the Devil? No income tax payments for you!

    Talk about slippery slopes and unintended consequences! Allowing religious discrimination would only lead to widespread hatred and fragmentation of society.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Dec. 4, 2013 9:45 p.m.

    of course we know that when we have legally justified the attitude of "we don't serve you people here," it has never ended poorly in our past right?

  • Bob K porland, OR
    Dec. 5, 2013 3:41 a.m.

    Please note:
    The issue is public accommodation laws in Colorado and elsewhere. If you live somewhere else, please understand that.
    --- once you start to grand exceptions for religious belief, etc, you open up the whole kettle of fish. Not to be rude, but in many States, if voters HAD to chose between businesses excluding Gays or members of certain religions, they would accept the gays' business only.

    Many of us think it is ridiculous to not just make the cake -- do you think there was going to be a newspaper article saying who made it?

    Well, of course, this type of so-called Christian is really saying: "I do not want to be seen treating these people the same as me" Meanwhile, if they made no cakes for the divorced or for fornicators, they would be closed.

    If such bakers, florists, etc put into their ads "We are members of the ABC Church and serve a Christian clientele", most Gay folks would not go there, but businesses open to the public must serve everyone in locales where the law says so.

  • hedgelog Idaho Falls, ID
    Dec. 5, 2013 5:54 a.m.

    No shirt no shoes no service...why can't free enterprise allow us to choose who we service. This is heading in a strange direction. Buy your cake elsewhere!

  • Robert Johnson Sunland, CA
    Dec. 5, 2013 6:42 a.m.

    This business owner is no different than the lunch counters that refused to serve black people in past generations. Bigotry in the name of religion is still bigotry.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Dec. 5, 2013 7:05 a.m.

    "making a wedding cake for gay couples would violate his Christian religious beliefs..."

    Allowing businesses to discriminate based on the religious beliefs of their owners would lead to horrible consequences across our entire society.

    -- Your religion tells you that blacks are inferior to whites? No groceries for them at your store.

    -- Your religion tells you that white Christian men are the Evil Overlords? No supper for them at your restaurant.

    -- Your religion tells you that Mormons are cultists? No rooms for them at your hotel.

    -- Your religion tells you that it's sinful to give birth out of wedlock? No vitamins for them at your pharmacy.

    -- Your religion tells you that women should stay in the home and raise babies? You don't have to hire any to work for your business.

    -- Your religion tells you that blood transfusions are evil? The hospital you run doesn't have to offer them to any of its patients.

    -- Your religion tells you that taxes are the work of the Devil? No income tax payments for you!

    Talk about slippery slopes and unintended consequences! Allowing religious discrimination would only lead to widespread hatred and fragmentation of society.

  • sukiyhtaky us, CA
    Dec. 5, 2013 7:56 a.m.

    Con...you hit the nail on the head. My gosh can you imagine what would happen if our government did this? discriminated on the basis of whatever?

    First you'd have schools forced to admit people by race and not by grades or test scores and to adversely not admit people like say oh Asians because their grades and test scores were too good.

    Then there would be hiring quotas based on race and not on qualifications. Can you imagine the outcome to allow a brain surgeon working on mom based only on how well he was qualified?

    Then we would grant hiring status to veterans even if they spent only 4 years behind a desk.

    Next government employees would get a preference over jobs merely because they were already employees nevermind they inhale at their job.

    Then teachers would get tenure and our students would be stuck with them no matter how bad they were as teachers.

    Yes indeedy can you just imagine what would happen...private businesses who put in long hours, over many years, investing their own money just might get the same rights as the government, our taxes pay for, gets on every level.

  • sukiyhtaky us, CA
    Dec. 5, 2013 8:04 a.m.

    Besides...why do we even need this. We were assured that no church or business would ever be forced to act against their beliefs. On their special day what couple would ever want to bring a feeling of contentiousness. Make a political statement? I thought weddings/civil unions were about love of two people for one another, NOT political statements. The Constitution guarantees us our religious freedom, it does not guarantee us the right to buy a cake anywhere we want.

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    Dec. 5, 2013 8:30 a.m.

    @sukiyhtaky --

    Those are amusing examples, Suki, but they are neither accurate nor related to religion or private businesses.

    "We were assured that no church or business would ever be forced to act against their beliefs."

    Nope. You were assured that no **church** would be.

    Businesses must always obey the laws of the jurisdictions they operate under, regardless of the religious beliefs of their owners. That has been true since the founding of this country. Remember, businesses are not churches.

    "On their special day what couple would ever want to bring a feeling of contentiousness."

    Sadly, the business in question chose to bring contention into that day. I agree, it was very regrettable that the business owners chose to bring their personal politics into it.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 8:41 a.m.

    scoundrel, spring street, and contrarywhateverthistime, along with the ACLU won't stop until doctors and nurses are forced to participate in abortions even if they are against their religious beliefs.

    It doesn't matter that the US constitution contains religious protections in its very first amendment, religious freedom isn't PC, so it should no longer exist in their "open" and "tolerant" minds. For them, tolerance only goes one way.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 9:03 a.m.

    @hedgehog
    no shirt no show no service, is a government regulation due to public health concerns not the random prejudices of business owners but nice red herring.

    @lost in DC
    abortion,? talk about of topic, thanks for the laugh though.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 9:24 a.m.

    sorry that's off not of

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 11:29 a.m.

    spring street,
    I see no denial in your desire to force all health care providers to participate in abortion "services".

    Laugh all you want, but I'm sorry you cannot see the connection, as both deal with constitutionally guaranteed religious freedom.

    contraiwhatever,
    nope, the business owner did not choose to bring contention, he chose to follow his conscience. the "couple" chose to be contentious by dragging it into court. You're telling me there are no other wedding cake companies in all of the Denver metro area, nowhere else they could get a cake?

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Dec. 5, 2013 12:04 p.m.

    @lost --

    "You're telling me there are no other wedding cake companies in all of the Denver metro area, nowhere else they could get a cake?"

    When the black college kids sat down at a Walgreens lunch counter in Nashville in 1960, there were plenty of other places in town they could have gone to eat instead.

    But, of course, that wasn't the point.

    Do you think those college kids should have quietly accepted the discrimination against them and gone elsewhere? Or do you think they were correct to stand up for their rights as US citizens?

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 12:45 p.m.

    @lost in dc
    its not connection I am concerned about it is about the fact that you did not address the topic of the article and instead bring in off topic references to try to place people on the defensive. If you want to have a discussion then lets have a discussion about the subject at hand (the bakery.

  • Tators Hyrum, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 3:00 p.m.

    @ spring street:

    Contriusester made a big list of "what if's" which were "off-topic references to place people on the defensive" similar to what Lost in DC did and yet you didn't call him out on it. It appears the standard for comments you are trying to create apply only to people who don't agree with your ideology.

    Speaking of Contriusester's list, none of those scenarios are currently applicable. He is creating a bunch of what-ifs in an ill-conceived attempt to condone his personal ideology. He should stick to the specific topic at hand.

    Everyone knows that gay marriage is currently very controversial... hence these kinds of court cases. Since people have the right to agree or disagree regarding topic, why should the government force individuals to condone people's actions that they are religiously-based opposed to? All of those other what-if scenarios are not this issue.

    When gay groups were initially trying to get their foot in the door of public acceptance, they specifically said no one would ever be forced to do anything regarding gay marriage if it was against their conscience. And yet, here we are anyway..

  • djk blue springs, MO
    Dec. 5, 2013 3:21 p.m.

    we live in a free country. if the bakery did not want to bake the cake then they have the right. does anyone notice the sign when going into resturants ? 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' ????? as a seamstress i have the right to say 'yes i will or no i cannot'. the bakery has every right to say no to anyone they please to say no to. any photographer has the right to say 'no i cannot'. yes freedom of religion also. i have the right to say Merry Christmas, some choose to say happy holidays. see we have the right !

  • postaledith Freeland, WA
    Dec. 5, 2013 3:57 p.m.

    Oh, I love this topic. We had this same issue in Washington state. Melissa's Sweet Cakes ended up closing their store because they lost so much business. Is the world not big enough to accomodate people regardless of their race or who they choose to love? This store in Colorado has a business license in order to be open. And when you have a business license, there are rules and laws in that business license that protects John Q. public against the business owner's bigotry and hate. If a business owner is going to bring their religion into their business, they should have their license revoked and shut down. Like it or not, the country in evolving. Pretty soon there will be room for every human being at the Inn. I rejoice in that FACT.

  • holy moly Herrmian, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 3:59 p.m.

    djk

    That is ridiculous! We are not free to discriminate just like we are not free to kill others.

    Living is a free society does not mean it is a free-for-all, do whatever you want! We still have laws we must abide by. Discrimination is against the law!

  • Sorry Charlie! SLC, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 4:07 p.m.

    @djk
    Please read the comments before repeating false analogies. Spring street addressed the same falued logic at 9:03 this morning.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 4:16 p.m.

    I'd lay odds that this business owner violates his/her "religious conscience" pretty much every day. I'll bet they watch shows on TV that show promiscuity (Big Bang Theory) nearly every episode. I'll bet they shop/drive/eat out on the Sabbath. I'll bet they take the Lord's name in vain. I'll bet they provide cakes/flowers/what-have-you for the weddings of adulterers, murderers, fornicators, etc. Each of those things would also be a "violation of their religious conscience". If they do all (or any of) these things, then claim "religious conscience" as a reason to discriminate against LGBT couples, then they're hypocrites and just see what the Bible has to say about hypocrites; far more than it has to say about homosexuality.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 4:17 p.m.

    @hedgelog;

    "No shirt, no shoes..." serves a legitimate health concern in businesses. "No gays" serves no legitimate purpose.

    "Buy your cake elsewhere!" -- Why should we? The business in in business to make wedding cakes. They need to be required to service all customers.

    sukiyhtaky says:
    "We were assured that no church or business would ever be forced to act against their beliefs."

    -- No you weren't. No church, yes. Businesses are not churches. Sorry, they don't get to discriminate against customers; that's what the entire civil rights movement was about.

    Tators says:

    "When gay groups were initially trying to get their foot in the door of public acceptance, they specifically said no one would ever be forced to do anything regarding gay marriage if it was against their conscience."

    --- No they weren't; isn't lying a violation of one of the 10? You are not a church. You were never promised you'd be allowed to discriminate willy-nilly basing your discriminatory behavior on your "religious beliefs".

  • Hochmut West Jordan, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 4:44 p.m.

    Seems the baker missed a great opportunity to let the new couple know that marriage is costly; "When do you need the cake?" he could have asked. "In two weeks," the reply would come. "Oh, that will cost an extra $100 to get it done by that date, and I'll need 100% deposit.

    No confontation...no statement...just business.

    Then, on the wedding cake a nice little touch would be the wedding statues of a groom and bride--just like normal couples have. This would have been a statement by itself.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 5:26 p.m.

    Trying to draw connections between sexual behavior choice and skin color is a false argument.

    Religious freedom is a constitutional right. PERIOD.

    And freedom of conscience should be the most protected civil right we have.

    Under the dictatorship of the extreme left they would have every one act the same, think the same, talk the same, be the same, all business are the same, all schools are the same, everything and everyone is the same. What a horrible, freedomless, colorless world that is.

    I would rather know who someone is, than have government forced sameness.

  • Free Market Bountiful, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 5:30 p.m.

    Do I have to be friends with everyone too? What about a photographer that is forced to take pictures of porn? Is that ok or is he discriminating if he chooses not to?
    Go get a cake somewhere else. Public places do not discriminate. Private citizens do all the time when you choose what to eat, who to be friends with and who to work for and who to do service for or whatever. A private business should be allowed the same option. It is private. Don't tell me what I have to do. If I hurt someone else, that is against the law (I am infringing on their right to be left alone). Don't interfere with me not wanting to associate with certain people and especially don't force me to work for them.

  • Free Market Bountiful, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 5:41 p.m.

    "Discrimination" is done everyday by everyone. You do it when you decide to be friends with some and not with others. Who you will be intimate with. Who you will talk to, who you will serve. A private business isn't private? So I may not choose to associate with some people, but you are going to force me to work for them? A photographer doesn't want to film porn, but has to so he isn't discriminating? Whose conscience do I have to use when living, mine or yours? If I am not interfering with your liberty, don't interfere with mine.

  • Sego Lilly Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2013 8:59 p.m.

    to: sukiyhtaky "Then there would be hiring quotas based on race and not on qualifications" That is and has been happening for many years. You go into many businesses now and you will see very few white (european) people working for them. This is because a law was passed back in the 1970s because there were a few people who were discriminated against because they lacked english language skills.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Dec. 6, 2013 11:16 p.m.

    Those discriminating cake bakers must be regulated, and punished.

    So much for freedom.

  • Rikitikitavi Cardston, Alberta
    Dec. 7, 2013 11:50 p.m.

    Same-sex marriage is a mockery of God's plan in sending His spirit children to earth. God will not be mocked.