I would think he deserves at least a presidential phone call for having the
courage to come out.After all, there is an Obama precedent for such
Chelsea is still a man.A man in a dress is a man in a dress.A man calling himself Chelsea is a man calling himself Chelsea.He won't get pardoned.He'll spend his time in jail as he
I am not a flying purple dinosaur simply because I say so.Neither is
he a woman simply because he says so.His birth doctors used FACTS
and EVIDENCE to conclude he is a male.His parents used FACTS and
EVIDENCE to conclude he is a male.The military doctors used FACTS
And EVIDENCE to conclude he is a male.The government used FACTS And
EVIDENCE to conclude he is a male.If he has evidence he is a female,
I'm open to hearing it?
It seems those who support transgender people are attempting to change the
definition of male and female that has been used for tens of thousands of
years.Society has a long established and accepted definition of male
and female.If those who support the "transgender" community
are attempting to change this definition, what is the new definition?What makes someone a man?What makes someone a woman?And no,
it can't be "because they say so"I'm not a flying
purple dinosaur even if I say so
Attempting to change the definition of "male" and "female" does
substantial damage to liberal causes that they've fought for for
decades."Equal pay" laws would be gone - after all, there
appears to now be no way to determine who is male and who is femaleTitle IX laws - gone. After all, there appears to now be no way to determine
who is male and who is female"Gender discrimination" laws -
gone. After all, there isn't a way to determine who is male and who is
female.Pretty soon liberals will have made things so twisted, there
will no longer be any distintion between male and female anywhere.Gone will be any sort of classification of gender. Laws to
protect females? goneMale and female restrooms separate? goneMale/female sports teams? goneIf they're attempting to change
what a male is and what a female is, they can't really back up anything
they've been fighting for if they can't determine what is a
"male" or "female" in the first place.
The frightening thing here is that someone so unstable could be in possession of
such sensitive material. Don't they screen our troops for such instability,
or is that not PC?
say noPC trumps EVERTHING! didn't you know that? our national
security, everything is secondary to PC. Why else would the ft hood kilings be
refered to as "workplace violence"?
@Chris --Manning's gender has little to do with this case.Nonetheless, you don't actually know whether "he" is in
fact male or not.You haven't read the medical reports, the
psych reports, OR the court transcripts.You simply don't have
the essential facts.OTOH, we do know that Manning was diagnosed with
Gender Identity Disorder by two psychiatrists. The first diagnosis was made
before the leaks occurred.We also know that GID is associated with
genetic, hormonal, and neurologic changes. IOW, it has a biological basis.And yes, I know, Manning is in a men's prison. Known intersex
people are in men's prison's across the country. Our prison system --
and especially the military system -- simply isn't equipped to deal with
people who don't quite fit into the gender norms. Notably, though, many
civilian prisons WILL provide hormonal treatment for their transsexual
inmates.And no, Manning isn't trying to change any definitions.
He's simply trying to fit into the category that his brain is telling him
he belongs in.If your brain was transplanted into a woman's
body, would you still identify as a man?
@VST --"Contrariusiest (misspelled by the way)"I
made up the word myself -- so I know how to spell it, thanks. ;-)"he has one X- chromosome..."Don't make
assumptions.Some people look male, yet have XX chromosomes. For
instance, people with severe congenital adrenal hyperplasia may be born with
male physical characteristics. Others are born XXY. Others may have
characteristics of BOTH genders, and chimeras may have both XX and XY
chromosomes.In fact, chromosomal gender is not always obvious on
external physical exam. One in every 5000 babies has enough physical
ambiguity to make gender assignment difficult or impossible by visual
inspection. The Intersex Society of North America states:
"...intersex anatomy doesn’t always show up at birth. Sometimes a
person isn’t found to have intersex anatomy until she or he reaches the
age of puberty, or finds himself an infertile adult, or dies of old age and is
autopsied. Some people live and die with intersex anatomy without anyone
(including themselves) ever knowing."""very doubtful you
will find a uterus... "Look up Steve Crecelius. "He" is
the father of several children. He recently found out that he also has a uterus
Vst, well said. Bradley is just a very confused man. Numerous people
who have decades of medical experience have all concluded he is a male. He can wish all he wants to be a woman, just as I can wish I were a
flying purple dinosaur. But thinking or wishing something
doesn't make it so. He is a man. I hope he gets the
mental help he clearly needs.
People sometimes confuse "gender identity" with "gender"Bradley may have gender identity problems. But his gender
identity doesn't impact gender. His gender impacts gender. And his gender is male.
@VST --"And I am the tooth fairy."Hiya, Toothy!
;-)@Chris B --"Numerous people who have decades of
medical experience have all concluded he is a male. "Just as
numerous people with decades of medical experience all concluded that Steve
Crecelius was a normal male. -- But he wasn't.Remember that
ISNA statement: "Sometimes a person isn't found to have intersex
anatomy until she or he reaches the age of puberty, or finds himself an
infertile adult, or dies of old age and is autopsied. Some people live and die
with intersex anatomy without anyone (including themselves) ever
knowing.""Bradley may have gender identity problems.
"Obviously. Two psychiatrists have diagnosed him with GID.And we know that GID can arise from genetic, hormonal, and/or
neurological changes.1. GID is 62% heritable, indicating a strong
genetic influence.2. In male-to-female transsexuals, GID is often
associated with genetically-induced androgen insensitivity.3.
Male-to-female transsexuals have a typically female stria terminalis (part of
the brain), while female-to-male transsexuals have a typically male stria
terminalis. 4. The hypothalamus in male-to-female transsexuals
appears to function as a typical woman's does.That's
biology, Chris -- not just wishful thinking.
Wow. A Freudian Psychologist would have afield day with some of these comments.
I'll never understand how someone can have such an emotional response to a
person they neither know personally nor supposedly share anything in common.An ounce of empathy would be a good start. The entire world could tell
me I shouldn't be heterosexual and yet I can not change my nature. Why
should I believe anyone else can? They can't. Get over it.
Contrariusiesthis psych tests have NOTHING to do with his physical
make-up.use all the variations of the name you want to get around
the 4 post limit, but that does not change BRADLEY's anatomy.
@Say No to BO --"The frightening thing here is that someone so
unstable could be in possession of such sensitive material. Don't they
screen our troops for such instability, or is that not PC?"That
was actually a part of the defense's argument. Manning was
already seeing a psychiatrist before the leaks occurred, and he was known to be
experiencing a high degree of psychological stress (in addition to the GID
diagnosis -- for instance, at one point he assaulted another intelligence
officer). His defense lawyer argued that he should have been removed from duty
because of his obvious stress and instability. His superior officer argued that,
in part, he did not remove Manning because they simply didn't have enough
manpower to get their job done without him.
redshirt,"The entire world could tell me I shouldn't be
heterosexual and yet I can not change my nature. Why should I believe anyone
else can? They can't." You're exactly right. He can't change his nature.He's a man.Just as homosexuals say homosexuality can't be changed, same with
gender.It may even be true he can't change wishing he was a
woman.He may not even be able to change thinking he is a woman.No one is debating what he wants/hopes/thinks.Its just a
matter of what he is. And countless medical professionals have all
come back with the same conclusion:maleNow, I think
everyone is open to any facts that suggest otherwise?But he presents
none. As there are none.
@VST --"This discussion is about physiology and not
psychology."They often go together. In the case of GID, we know
that genetic, hormonal, and neurological changes are associated with it."They said, physiologically, he is a male."Says
who?Do you know what sort of testing, if any, was performed on
Manning?Nope, you don't.Actually, physiology never
even came up in the trial. His lawyers focused on Manning's stress, not his
physiological status.@Christofer B --"He's a
man."Show us the medical and psych reports.Oh,
that's right -- you can't.If your brain was transplanted
into a woman's body, would you still identify as a man?That's pretty much what people with GID are. They more-or-less have
brains that are structured like and act like the gender opposite to their
bodies.In addition, some GID people -- like Steve Crecelius, for
example -- have more obvious intersex conditions. Crecelius, for instance, has a
uterus and ovaries. He's probably an XX/XY chimera. Others have androgen
insensitivity. Others are XXY. There's a lot of intersex
conditions. You simply don't have enough facts to declare that Manning has
none of them..
@VST --" will still take the Army's word over your word.
"And which word is that?Is that the word in the Army
medical reports -- which you haven't read?Is that the word in the
Army psych reports -- which you haven't read?Is that the word in the
Army trial transcripts -- which you haven't read?Exactly which
word from the Army are you referring to?The one word that you DO
know from the Army is that two Army psychiatrists have independently diagnosed
Manning with Gender Identity Disorder.And we know from multiple
research studies that GID is associated with genetic, hormonal, and neurological
changes -- as well as more extreme physical changes in some cases (like Steve
Crecelius).Please let us all know where the Army has stated that
Manning does not have any of these biological changes. Where exactly
is this "word"?
VST is right.And YES, we do know what the Army has concluded. Let's look at what the military said even AFTER Bradley started
telling people he was a woman."You enlisted as a male,
you're a male, you're going to be incarcerated as a male," Let's look a this.He enlisted as a male, which includes
a medical exam and the proper designation of each enrollee as either male or
female.So what did the military conclude?MaleNow lets look at what the military currently has concluded:"You're a male"If that's not clear enough, I
don't know what would be."You're a male"To me that means he's a male.
@Christofer B --"You enlisted as a male, you're a male,
you're going to be incarcerated as a male," Where exactly
did the Army say this, Chris?Please state your source.The fact is that multiple known intersex convicts are **already** in male
prisons across the country.Being put into a male prison has nothing
whatsoever to do with whether Manning is intersex or not."He
enlisted as a male, which includes a medical exam and the proper designation of
each enrollee as either male or female.Please tell us exactly what
medical tests were performed on Manning when he enlisted.Were X-rays
done?Was genetic testing done?Was hormonal testing done?Please list the results of each exam. And please cite your sources.I'm looking forward to the information.
@Chris --I decided to save you a little trouble. I looked up what is
included in the Army's entrance medical exam.Here ya go:-- General physical exam-- Height and weight measurements-- Hearing and vision examinations-- standard Urine
(urinalysis) and blood tests (CBC and chemistry panel): These include a test for
HIV antibodies and a pregnancy test for female applicants, as well as drug and
alcohol screening-- Muscle group and joint maneuversGuess what, Chris? NONE of these tests will detect many of the intersex
syndromes. For instance, Steve Crecelius would have passed these exams with
flying colors (just as he passed his police medical exams).So, again
-- please tell us exactly what testing the Army performed to conclude that
Manning was unequivocally male? Please tell us exacctly which tests were so
overhwlemingly conclusive as to contradict the findings of two of their own Army
psychiatrists?Please cite your sources.
The military does not simply flip a coin for deciding who is enlisted as a male
and who is enlisted as a female.Neither do they simply flip a coin
when detrmining a prisoner should be in a male prison or a female prison.The put males in male prisons.Females in female prisons.The military has concluded he is a male.I'm open to
evidence to the contrary?But all the information I have is that the
military has concluded he is a male.Do we have any evidence from any
source to the contrary?I guess he's a male.
@Chris B --"The military does not simply flip a coin ..."That's right. I've already told you exactly what
tests the military does. And guess what -- they would have accepted Steve
Crecelius as a male, too, despite his uterus and ovaries."Neither do they simply flip a coin when detrmining a prisoner should be
in a male prison or a female prison."As I've already told
you, there are multiple known intersex convicts already serving sentences in
men's prisons across the country. The assignment of Manning to a men's
prison has nothing whatsoever to do with whether he's intersex or not."The military has concluded he is a male."Where?Please cite your source. Where is this statement in which the military
has concluded that Manning is unequivocally male? Where is the testing
they've done to prove that he's unequivocally male?"I'm open to evidence to the contrary?"I've
already presented evidence. Do you doubt the diagnoses of two Army
psychiatrists?"I guess he's a male.""Guess" is exactly right. You don't have the necessary facts to
do anything BUT guess.
Contragion,Did two army pshyhiatrists diagnose Bradley as a
woman?Or as thinking he's a woman?Big big
difference.Sort of like the difference between me being a flying
purple dinosaur and me thinking I'm a flying purple dinosaur.So
far we have many medical experts who have all come to the same conclusion:maleFor years Bradley himself called himself a man.If he was lying all those year, I'm happy to hear evidence to the
contrary.And yet his supporters can only come up with this:He thinks he is a woman or he wants to be a woman.Well, I want to
be a flying purple dinosaur. But I'm not. Tough.
@Christofer B --"Did two army pshyhiatrists diagnose Bradley as
a woman?"Two Army psychiatrists diagnosed Manning with GID. And,
as we know from multiple research studies, GID is associated with multiple
genetic, hormonal, and neurological changes -- and may also be associated with
more extreme changes, such as in the case with Steve Crecelius.Do
you wish to deny that these multiple changes are associated with GID?If so, please present your evidence."So far we have many
medical experts who have all come to the same conclusion:male"You still haven't shown us where any of these
supposed conclusions were made, or what tests were used to reach these supposed
conclusions.Please provide your evidence."For years
Bradley himself called himself a man."Of course he did. The Army
discharges transsexuals.He couldn't even admit that he was gay,
much less that he was transsexual. He entered the Army in the DADT era."And yet his supporters can only come up with this:He thinks
he is a woman or he wants to be a woman."Ummmm, no.GID, Chris.Keep guessing, Chris. That's all you've got
Who cares what he wants to be called----he is guilty of treason. In the past,
treason was a capital crime. It puts the country at risk and therefore cannot
be tolerated.It should still be a capital crime and the sentence
carried out. That will make the country safer, which is what he claims he
wants. So grant his wish.
@toosmartforyou --"he is guilty of treason."He
wasn't convicted of treason, so he's not going to be punished for it.
In fact, he was specifically acquitted of aiding the enemy.He will,
nonetheless, be in prison for a good long time -- no matter how often he applies
for that pardon.IIRC, his earliest possible parole date will come up
in about 10 years.
Do we know why a "woman" was put in a male prison facility?Did the military make a mistake?You would think with our military
being the most advanced in the entire would that they would know the difference
between a man and a woman.Someone should hurry and let them know
that he's a woman.
@Chris B --"Did the military make a mistake?"Sigh, Chris.You keep ignoring the fact that KNOWN intersex
convicts are already in men's prisons all across the nation.Being put into a men's prison has NOTHING to do with whether Manning is
intersex or not.Steve Crecelius would also go into a men's
prison if he were convicted of a crime, even though he has a uterus and
ovaries.Stop ignoring the facts, Chris.The fact is that
you have NO evidence that Manning isn't intersex. You are just guessing.
The only thing we have to go on in this case are the facts.His birth
doctors concluded he was a male.The military doctors also concluded he was
a male.They know more about what makes someone male/female than I
do, and certainly more than Bradley does.Since all doctors involved
have determined him to be a man, I guess we just have to rely on those facts,
that they say he is a man.I'm open to other facts if there are
any?But again, the fact I may think or wish I were a flying dinosaur
does not make it so.I don't have any facts that suggest I am a
flying purple dinosaur.So even if I say I am, logic would make
people not believe me.Same here.We can only apply the
facts that we do no.I haven't heard a single shred of evidence
that implies there is even a chance he is a woman.But I'm still
open to any such evidence
@Chris --"The only thing we have to go on in this case are the
facts."Right.And you don't have any.OTOH, we DO have the fact that he was diagnosed by two Army psychiatrists with
GID.The facts are against you, Chris.
There are many mental disorders that people have, believing things that
aren't true. I don't think we're sure yet if manning has a
mental disorder in believing he is a woman, or simply a desire to be a woman.Under either scenario, there is a big big difference between what he
thinks/wishes he were, and what he is.I can wish and think I am a
dinosaur, I am not.The medical community and the armed forces, which
are more than capable of declaring him male or female, have determined he is a
male.I think I am very open minded along with the medical community
and the military, and should any evidence suggest he is IS a woman, and not just
thinks it, I'm open to hearing it certainly.Anything?Anything at all?
Should we let anyone out of jail who says they are innocent(even though facts
and evidence proved otherwise)?No.Should we treat any
man like a woman(even though facts and evidence proved otherwise) simply because
he wants to be a woman?NoDoes this mean the judicial
system has never made an error?No.But we do our best
with the data available.The only data available for Bradley is that
he's a man.Multiple medical professionals with a better
understanding of male/female than Bradley have all said he is male.I
know he wants to be a woman.But he's not.I'm
still waiting on any evidence he is a woman?And yet no one can
provide anything?And so we continue with the countless medical
experts who unanimously came to the same conclusion:male