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Bradley Manning, who now goes by the name Chelsea, seeks presidential pardon

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  • Say No to BO Mapleton, UT
    Sept. 4, 2013 9:54 a.m.

    I would think he deserves at least a presidential phone call for having the courage to come out.
    After all, there is an Obama precedent for such things.

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Sept. 4, 2013 11:21 a.m.

    Chelsea is still a man.

    A man in a dress is a man in a dress.

    A man calling himself Chelsea is a man calling himself Chelsea.

    He won't get pardoned.

    He'll spend his time in jail as he deserves

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Sept. 4, 2013 11:23 a.m.

    I am not a flying purple dinosaur simply because I say so.

    Neither is he a woman simply because he says so.

    His birth doctors used FACTS and EVIDENCE to conclude he is a male.

    His parents used FACTS and EVIDENCE to conclude he is a male.

    The military doctors used FACTS And EVIDENCE to conclude he is a male.

    The government used FACTS And EVIDENCE to conclude he is a male.

    If he has evidence he is a female, I'm open to hearing it?

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Sept. 4, 2013 11:25 a.m.

    It seems those who support transgender people are attempting to change the definition of male and female that has been used for tens of thousands of years.

    Society has a long established and accepted definition of male and female.

    If those who support the "transgender" community are attempting to change this definition, what is the new definition?

    What makes someone a man?
    What makes someone a woman?

    And no, it can't be "because they say so"

    I'm not a flying purple dinosaur even if I say so

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Sept. 4, 2013 11:30 a.m.

    Attempting to change the definition of "male" and "female" does substantial damage to liberal causes that they've fought for for decades.

    "Equal pay" laws would be gone - after all, there appears to now be no way to determine who is male and who is female

    Title IX laws - gone. After all, there appears to now be no way to determine who is male and who is female

    "Gender discrimination" laws - gone. After all, there isn't a way to determine who is male and who is female.

    Pretty soon liberals will have made things so twisted, there will no longer be any distintion between male and female anywhere.

    Gone will be any sort of classification of gender.

    Laws to protect females? gone
    Male and female restrooms separate? gone
    Male/female sports teams? gone

    If they're attempting to change what a male is and what a female is, they can't really back up anything they've been fighting for if they can't determine what is a "male" or "female" in the first place.

  • Say No to BO Mapleton, UT
    Sept. 4, 2013 12:45 p.m.

    The frightening thing here is that someone so unstable could be in possession of such sensitive material. Don't they screen our troops for such instability, or is that not PC?

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Sept. 4, 2013 1:07 p.m.

    say no
    PC trumps EVERTHING! didn't you know that? our national security, everything is secondary to PC. Why else would the ft hood kilings be refered to as "workplace violence"?

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    Sept. 4, 2013 3:47 p.m.

    @Chris --

    Manning's gender has little to do with this case.

    Nonetheless, you don't actually know whether "he" is in fact male or not.

    You haven't read the medical reports, the psych reports, OR the court transcripts.

    You simply don't have the essential facts.

    OTOH, we do know that Manning was diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder by two psychiatrists. The first diagnosis was made before the leaks occurred.

    We also know that GID is associated with genetic, hormonal, and neurologic changes. IOW, it has a biological basis.

    And yes, I know, Manning is in a men's prison. Known intersex people are in men's prison's across the country. Our prison system -- and especially the military system -- simply isn't equipped to deal with people who don't quite fit into the gender norms. Notably, though, many civilian prisons WILL provide hormonal treatment for their transsexual inmates.

    And no, Manning isn't trying to change any definitions. He's simply trying to fit into the category that his brain is telling him he belongs in.

    If your brain was transplanted into a woman's body, would you still identify as a man?

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    Sept. 4, 2013 7:52 p.m.

    @VST --

    "Contrariusiest (misspelled by the way)"

    I made up the word myself -- so I know how to spell it, thanks. ;-)

    "he has one X- chromosome..."

    Don't make assumptions.

    Some people look male, yet have XX chromosomes. For instance, people with severe congenital adrenal hyperplasia may be born with male physical characteristics. Others are born XXY. Others may have characteristics of BOTH genders, and chimeras may have both XX and XY chromosomes.

    In fact, chromosomal gender is not always obvious on external physical exam.

    One in every 5000 babies has enough physical ambiguity to make gender assignment difficult or impossible by visual inspection.

    The Intersex Society of North America states: "...intersex anatomy doesn’t always show up at birth. Sometimes a person isn’t found to have intersex anatomy until she or he reaches the age of puberty, or finds himself an infertile adult, or dies of old age and is autopsied. Some people live and die with intersex anatomy without anyone (including themselves) ever knowing.""

    "very doubtful you will find a uterus... "

    Look up Steve Crecelius. "He" is the father of several children. He recently found out that he also has a uterus and ovaries.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 4, 2013 9:18 p.m.

    Vst, well said.

    Bradley is just a very confused man. Numerous people who have decades of medical experience have all concluded he is a male.

    He can wish all he wants to be a woman, just as I can wish I were a flying purple dinosaur.

    But thinking or wishing something doesn't make it so.

    He is a man.

    I hope he gets the mental help he clearly needs.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 4, 2013 9:21 p.m.

    People sometimes confuse "gender identity" with "gender"

    Bradley may have gender identity problems.

    But his gender identity doesn't impact gender.

    His gender impacts gender.

    And his gender is male.

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    Sept. 5, 2013 7:57 a.m.

    @VST --

    "And I am the tooth fairy."

    Hiya, Toothy! ;-)

    @Chris B --

    "Numerous people who have decades of medical experience have all concluded he is a male. "

    Just as numerous people with decades of medical experience all concluded that Steve Crecelius was a normal male. -- But he wasn't.

    Remember that ISNA statement: "Sometimes a person isn't found to have intersex anatomy until she or he reaches the age of puberty, or finds himself an infertile adult, or dies of old age and is autopsied. Some people live and die with intersex anatomy without anyone (including themselves) ever knowing."

    "Bradley may have gender identity problems. "

    Obviously. Two psychiatrists have diagnosed him with GID.

    And we know that GID can arise from genetic, hormonal, and/or neurological changes.

    1. GID is 62% heritable, indicating a strong genetic influence.

    2. In male-to-female transsexuals, GID is often associated with genetically-induced androgen insensitivity.

    3. Male-to-female transsexuals have a typically female stria terminalis (part of the brain), while female-to-male transsexuals have a typically male stria terminalis.

    4. The hypothalamus in male-to-female transsexuals appears to function as a typical woman's does.

    That's biology, Chris -- not just wishful thinking.

  • redshirt007 tranquility base, 00
    Sept. 5, 2013 8:14 a.m.

    Wow. A Freudian Psychologist would have afield day with some of these comments. I'll never understand how someone can have such an emotional response to a person they neither know personally nor supposedly share anything in common.

    An ounce of empathy would be a good start. The entire world could tell me I shouldn't be heterosexual and yet I can not change my nature. Why should I believe anyone else can? They can't. Get over it.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 10:25 a.m.

    Contrariusiest
    his psych tests have NOTHING to do with his physical make-up.

    use all the variations of the name you want to get around the 4 post limit, but that does not change BRADLEY's anatomy.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Sept. 5, 2013 10:29 a.m.

    @Say No to BO --

    "The frightening thing here is that someone so unstable could be in possession of such sensitive material. Don't they screen our troops for such instability, or is that not PC?"

    That was actually a part of the defense's argument.

    Manning was already seeing a psychiatrist before the leaks occurred, and he was known to be experiencing a high degree of psychological stress (in addition to the GID diagnosis -- for instance, at one point he assaulted another intelligence officer). His defense lawyer argued that he should have been removed from duty because of his obvious stress and instability. His superior officer argued that, in part, he did not remove Manning because they simply didn't have enough manpower to get their job done without him.

  • Christofer B Salt Lake, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 10:53 a.m.

    redshirt,

    "The entire world could tell me I shouldn't be heterosexual and yet I can not change my nature. Why should I believe anyone else can? They can't."

    You're exactly right.

    He can't change his nature.

    He's a man.

    Just as homosexuals say homosexuality can't be changed, same with gender.

    It may even be true he can't change wishing he was a woman.

    He may not even be able to change thinking he is a woman.

    No one is debating what he wants/hopes/thinks.

    Its just a matter of what he is.

    And countless medical professionals have all come back with the same conclusion:

    male

    Now, I think everyone is open to any facts that suggest otherwise?

    But he presents none. As there are none.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Sept. 5, 2013 2:19 p.m.

    @VST --

    "This discussion is about physiology and not psychology."

    They often go together. In the case of GID, we know that genetic, hormonal, and neurological changes are associated with it.

    "They said, physiologically, he is a male."

    Says who?

    Do you know what sort of testing, if any, was performed on Manning?

    Nope, you don't.

    Actually, physiology never even came up in the trial. His lawyers focused on Manning's stress, not his physiological status.

    @Christofer B --

    "He's a man."

    Show us the medical and psych reports.

    Oh, that's right -- you can't.

    If your brain was transplanted into a woman's body, would you still identify as a man?

    That's pretty much what people with GID are. They more-or-less have brains that are structured like and act like the gender opposite to their bodies.

    In addition, some GID people -- like Steve Crecelius, for example -- have more obvious intersex conditions. Crecelius, for instance, has a uterus and ovaries. He's probably an XX/XY chimera. Others have androgen insensitivity. Others are XXY.

    There's a lot of intersex conditions. You simply don't have enough facts to declare that Manning has none of them..

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Sept. 6, 2013 7:45 a.m.

    @VST --

    " will still take the Army's word over your word. "

    And which word is that?

    Is that the word in the Army medical reports -- which you haven't read?
    Is that the word in the Army psych reports -- which you haven't read?
    Is that the word in the Army trial transcripts -- which you haven't read?

    Exactly which word from the Army are you referring to?

    The one word that you DO know from the Army is that two Army psychiatrists have independently diagnosed Manning with Gender Identity Disorder.

    And we know from multiple research studies that GID is associated with genetic, hormonal, and neurological changes -- as well as more extreme physical changes in some cases (like Steve Crecelius).

    Please let us all know where the Army has stated that Manning does not have any of these biological changes.

    Where exactly is this "word"?

  • Christofer B Salt Lake, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 9:27 a.m.

    VST is right.

    And YES, we do know what the Army has concluded.

    Let's look at what the military said even AFTER Bradley started telling people he was a woman.

    "You enlisted as a male, you're a male, you're going to be incarcerated as a male,"

    Let's look a this.

    He enlisted as a male, which includes a medical exam and the proper designation of each enrollee as either male or female.

    So what did the military conclude?

    Male

    Now lets look at what the military currently has concluded:

    "You're a male"

    If that's not clear enough, I don't know what would be.

    "You're a male"

    To me that means he's a male.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Sept. 6, 2013 10:17 a.m.

    @Christofer B --

    "You enlisted as a male, you're a male, you're going to be incarcerated as a male,"

    Where exactly did the Army say this, Chris?

    Please state your source.

    The fact is that multiple known intersex convicts are **already** in male prisons across the country.

    Being put into a male prison has nothing whatsoever to do with whether Manning is intersex or not.

    "He enlisted as a male, which includes a medical exam and the proper designation of each enrollee as either male or female.

    Please tell us exactly what medical tests were performed on Manning when he enlisted.

    Were X-rays done?
    Was genetic testing done?
    Was hormonal testing done?

    Please list the results of each exam. And please cite your sources.

    I'm looking forward to the information.

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    Sept. 6, 2013 10:36 a.m.

    @Chris --

    I decided to save you a little trouble. I looked up what is included in the Army's entrance medical exam.

    Here ya go:

    -- General physical exam

    -- Height and weight measurements

    -- Hearing and vision examinations

    -- standard Urine (urinalysis) and blood tests (CBC and chemistry panel): These include a test for HIV antibodies and a pregnancy test for female applicants, as well as drug and alcohol screening

    -- Muscle group and joint maneuvers

    Guess what, Chris? NONE of these tests will detect many of the intersex syndromes. For instance, Steve Crecelius would have passed these exams with flying colors (just as he passed his police medical exams).

    So, again -- please tell us exactly what testing the Army performed to conclude that Manning was unequivocally male? Please tell us exacctly which tests were so overhwlemingly conclusive as to contradict the findings of two of their own Army psychiatrists?

    Please cite your sources.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 11:51 a.m.

    The military does not simply flip a coin for deciding who is enlisted as a male and who is enlisted as a female.

    Neither do they simply flip a coin when detrmining a prisoner should be in a male prison or a female prison.

    The put males in male prisons.

    Females in female prisons.

    The military has concluded he is a male.

    I'm open to evidence to the contrary?

    But all the information I have is that the military has concluded he is a male.

    Do we have any evidence from any source to the contrary?

    I guess he's a male.

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Sept. 6, 2013 12:12 p.m.

    @Chris B --

    "The military does not simply flip a coin ..."

    That's right.

    I've already told you exactly what tests the military does. And guess what -- they would have accepted Steve Crecelius as a male, too, despite his uterus and ovaries.

    "Neither do they simply flip a coin when detrmining a prisoner should be in a male prison or a female prison."

    As I've already told you, there are multiple known intersex convicts already serving sentences in men's prisons across the country. The assignment of Manning to a men's prison has nothing whatsoever to do with whether he's intersex or not.

    "The military has concluded he is a male."

    Where?

    Please cite your source. Where is this statement in which the military has concluded that Manning is unequivocally male? Where is the testing they've done to prove that he's unequivocally male?

    "I'm open to evidence to the contrary?"

    I've already presented evidence. Do you doubt the diagnoses of two Army psychiatrists?

    "I guess he's a male."

    "Guess" is exactly right. You don't have the necessary facts to do anything BUT guess.

  • Christofer B Salt Lake, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 2:04 p.m.

    Contragion,

    Did two army pshyhiatrists diagnose Bradley as a woman?

    Or as thinking he's a woman?

    Big big difference.

    Sort of like the difference between me being a flying purple dinosaur and me thinking I'm a flying purple dinosaur.

    So far we have many medical experts who have all come to the same conclusion:

    male

    For years Bradley himself called himself a man.

    If he was lying all those year, I'm happy to hear evidence to the contrary.

    And yet his supporters can only come up with this:

    He thinks he is a woman or he wants to be a woman.

    Well, I want to be a flying purple dinosaur.

    But I'm not.

    Tough.

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Sept. 6, 2013 3:00 p.m.

    @Christofer B --

    "Did two army pshyhiatrists diagnose Bradley as a woman?"

    Two Army psychiatrists diagnosed Manning with GID. And, as we know from multiple research studies, GID is associated with multiple genetic, hormonal, and neurological changes -- and may also be associated with more extreme changes, such as in the case with Steve Crecelius.

    Do you wish to deny that these multiple changes are associated with GID?

    If so, please present your evidence.

    "So far we have many medical experts who have all come to the same conclusion:

    male"

    You still haven't shown us where any of these supposed conclusions were made, or what tests were used to reach these supposed conclusions.

    Please provide your evidence.

    "For years Bradley himself called himself a man."

    Of course he did. The Army discharges transsexuals.

    He couldn't even admit that he was gay, much less that he was transsexual. He entered the Army in the DADT era.

    "And yet his supporters can only come up with this:

    He thinks he is a woman or he wants to be a woman."

    Ummmm, no.

    GID, Chris.

    Keep guessing, Chris. That's all you've got so far.

  • toosmartforyou Farmington, UT
    Sept. 7, 2013 2:03 p.m.

    Who cares what he wants to be called----he is guilty of treason. In the past, treason was a capital crime. It puts the country at risk and therefore cannot be tolerated.

    It should still be a capital crime and the sentence carried out. That will make the country safer, which is what he claims he wants. So grant his wish.

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Sept. 7, 2013 7:36 p.m.

    @toosmartforyou --

    "he is guilty of treason."

    He wasn't convicted of treason, so he's not going to be punished for it. In fact, he was specifically acquitted of aiding the enemy.

    He will, nonetheless, be in prison for a good long time -- no matter how often he applies for that pardon.

    IIRC, his earliest possible parole date will come up in about 10 years.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 3:05 p.m.

    Do we know why a "woman" was put in a male prison facility?

    Did the military make a mistake?

    You would think with our military being the most advanced in the entire would that they would know the difference between a man and a woman.

    Someone should hurry and let them know that he's a woman.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Sept. 10, 2013 5:19 p.m.

    @Chris B --

    "Did the military make a mistake?"

    Sigh, Chris.

    You keep ignoring the fact that KNOWN intersex convicts are already in men's prisons all across the nation.

    Being put into a men's prison has NOTHING to do with whether Manning is intersex or not.

    Steve Crecelius would also go into a men's prison if he were convicted of a crime, even though he has a uterus and ovaries.

    Stop ignoring the facts, Chris.

    The fact is that you have NO evidence that Manning isn't intersex. You are just guessing.

  • Cris B. Sandy, UT
    Sept. 11, 2013 3:10 p.m.

    The only thing we have to go on in this case are the facts.

    His birth doctors concluded he was a male.
    The military doctors also concluded he was a male.

    They know more about what makes someone male/female than I do, and certainly more than Bradley does.

    Since all doctors involved have determined him to be a man, I guess we just have to rely on those facts, that they say he is a man.

    I'm open to other facts if there are any?

    But again, the fact I may think or wish I were a flying dinosaur does not make it so.

    I don't have any facts that suggest I am a flying purple dinosaur.

    So even if I say I am, logic would make people not believe me.

    Same here.

    We can only apply the facts that we do no.

    I haven't heard a single shred of evidence that implies there is even a chance he is a woman.

    But I'm still open to any such evidence

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Sept. 25, 2013 7:31 a.m.

    @Chris --

    "The only thing we have to go on in this case are the facts."

    Right.

    And you don't have any.

    OTOH, we DO have the fact that he was diagnosed by two Army psychiatrists with GID.

    The facts are against you, Chris.

  • ChristoperB Salt Lake, UT
    Oct. 2, 2013 9:06 a.m.

    There are many mental disorders that people have, believing things that aren't true. I don't think we're sure yet if manning has a mental disorder in believing he is a woman, or simply a desire to be a woman.

    Under either scenario, there is a big big difference between what he thinks/wishes he were, and what he is.

    I can wish and think I am a dinosaur, I am not.

    The medical community and the armed forces, which are more than capable of declaring him male or female, have determined he is a male.

    I think I am very open minded along with the medical community and the military, and should any evidence suggest he is IS a woman, and not just thinks it, I'm open to hearing it certainly.

    Anything?

    Anything at all?

  • ChristoperB Salt Lake, UT
    Oct. 2, 2013 9:07 a.m.

    Should we let anyone out of jail who says they are innocent(even though facts and evidence proved otherwise)?

    No.

    Should we treat any man like a woman(even though facts and evidence proved otherwise) simply because he wants to be a woman?

    No

    Does this mean the judicial system has never made an error?

    No.

    But we do our best with the data available.

    The only data available for Bradley is that he's a man.

    Multiple medical professionals with a better understanding of male/female than Bradley have all said he is male.

    I know he wants to be a woman.

    But he's not.

    I'm still waiting on any evidence he is a woman?

    And yet no one can provide anything?

    And so we continue with the countless medical experts who unanimously came to the same conclusion:

    male